what do you know about the church of scientology? [Archive]

D J 1 3 8

05-09-2003, 11:06 AM

You'll find PLENTY about them on the web.

It's sort of a self-help religion/money pyramid scheme started by a very mediocre science fiction writer, L. Ron Hubbard.

He wrote a book, DIANETICS, which it is all based on. It's the typical self-help mumbo-jumbo about overcoming your problems and whatnot. It has certainly done wonders for many people, but so have the Krishnas and The Simbianese Liberation Army.

I call it a money pyramid because like similar schemes, your involvement entails the constant purchasing of books, videos, as well as attending endless seminars. You are also supposed to give 10% of your income to "the church".

What many don't know is, the root of L Ron Hubbard's philosophy is based on some REALLY nutty theory about aliens beginning life on this planet and that a lot of our problems are caused by the spirits of dead aliens, etc. They don't tell you this for a few years, afraid that they'll scare you away.

There are MANY prominent celebrities involved, like Lisa Marie Presley, John Travolta, etc.

There are all kinds of conspiracy theories you'll find on the web, though a lot of them have been removed by the courts. The Church of Scientology is incredibly wealthy, and they spend a great deal of money and time squashing all bad publicity about them. They've got so much money that just the threat of endless law-suits keeps even the biggest news sources from reporting about them. There was a famous case of this with ABC (I think), who had to pull their expose under the threat of lawsuits.

There's another famous case of a group of ex-scientologists who started an organization to promote the ugly truth about the church and serve as a safe haven for those trying to leave the church. They were sued into oblivion, with the church finally gaining control of their name and logo and everything, so that the organization ended up, ironically, being another way of recruiting followers, not warning them against it. To be honest, it's really fuccing crazy and scary when you get right down to it.

Reportedly, they are notorious for they're use of barainwashing tactics on those trying to leave the church.

My advice: be afraid, be very afraid.

Jolyon

05-09-2003, 11:10 AM

It's a cult. Avoid it.

Did you know that Isaac Hayes and Doug E. Fresh are both Scientologists?

05-09-2003, 11:10 AM

thanks for the information, dj 138!...i have been so curious about it and i will continue to seek more info about it...have you known anyone personally involved? can you maybe sum up why folk involved have been so successful?

SuzanneT

05-09-2003, 11:11 AM

One thing I did read about them is that they have the wealthiest congregation in the world. Something like 90 % are millionaires.

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-09-2003, 11:23 AM

Also, here in Chicago there is a form of scientology, actually the guy that started "Landmark" studied scientology. I attended a "Landmark Forum" which was a three day seminar on Self help, learning about who you are and how to relate to others. I attended that and a ten week seminar about Committment - the Power of Your Word. That was it for me, I couldn't do it anymore. The whole thing is a money thing. They use brainwashing to get you involved and take a stand for your life by taking more seminars, or volunteering to assist 10 - 12 hours for a Forum. Once they get you they will call you and call you until you either give in out of guilt or let them know you are important and don't need them anymore. I have known people that take every seminar, have crying and in-touch moments and it's really sickening. They prey on the weak and want you to continue to depend on the seminars so make you feel like you are actually worthy.

All I can say is to each is own. But to prey on vulnerable people is not worth participating in.

Here is a link to Landmark Education:

Landmark Education (http://www.landmarkeducation.com/index.jsp?top=20)

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-09-2003, 11:28 AM

D J 1 3 8

05-09-2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
thanks for the information, dj 138!...i have been so curious about it and i will continue to seek more info about it...have you known anyone personally involved? can you maybe sum up why folk involved have been so successful? I've never known any Scientologists personally, so I really couldn't say. There is definitely some good that can come out of a lot of self-help type of programs, but at what cost? May of them, like Scientology and The Forum that Discolady spoke of, will take you for a lot of money and quite often brainwash you in to being a lifelong member.

I had several close friends and co-workers that went through The Forum, and it left a really bad taste in my mouth. Not only were they siging up for seminar after seminar, but they were starting to say shit to me like "If you don't do the Forum seminars, I'm not sure we can really be friends anymore". Part of The Forum is that all members HAVE to recruit new members. Again, another money scheme. Most of them are back to normal and out of the program by now, but not all.

The Forum was actually started by someone who bought out the rights to EST, a California-based self-help cult of the 70s. They, like The Forum, were famous for their 3-day seminars where they get you in a big group and scream at you for 3 days about how you're worthless and everything you know is wrong. They won't use slepp deprivation and other tricks like not letting you go to the bathroom for a really long time. It's a classic mind-control tactic. They break your spirit then re-mold you in their image.

Again, be afraid, be very afraid.

05-09-2003, 11:39 AM

wow... i had no idea...i saw that one site, discolady - that was actually the first site i saw before coming here and asking (i knew someone would know on dhp)...i'm now cheking this site: secrets of scientology (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/)

it's pretty amazing...

this is all new to me...

D J 1 3 8

05-09-2003, 11:45 AM

Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
wow... i had no idea...i saw that one site, discolady - that was actually the first site i saw before coming here and asking (i knew someone would know on dhp)...i'm now cheking this site: secrets of scientology (http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/)

it's pretty amazing...

this is all new to me... Again, I urge you to tread with caution. The Scientology lawyers are so prolific that even a lot of information that appears to be an expose ends up being a tool to promote the church. They are relentless in their pursuit of people who disagree with them.

05-09-2003, 11:55 AM

hey, dj, have you checked out that site i referred to? do you think the person's recruiting or what?

D J 1 3 8

05-09-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
hey, dj, have you checked out that site i referred to? do you think the person's recruiting or what? It seems legit, but you never know. I think if you approach all of this with a healthy does of skepticism you'll do just fine. And if you really MUST send 10% of your income to somebody, I'll post my address :D

Pete Nice

05-09-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Also, here in Chicago there is a form of scientology, actually the guy that started "Landmark" studied scientology. I attended a "Landmark Forum" which was a three day seminar on Self help, learning about who you are and how to relate to others. I attended that and a ten week seminar about Committment - the Power of Your Word. That was it for me, I couldn't do it anymore. The whole thing is a money thing. They use brainwashing to get you involved and take a stand for your life by taking more seminars, or volunteering to assist 10 - 12 hours for a Forum. Once they get you they will call you and call you until you either give in out of guilt or let them know you are important and don't need them anymore. I have known people that take every seminar, have crying and in-touch moments and it's really sickening. They prey on the weak and want you to continue to depend on the seminars so make you feel like you are actually worthy.

All I can say is to each is own. But to prey on vulnerable people is not worth participating in.

Here is a link to Landmark Education:

Landmark Education (http://www.landmarkeducation.com/index.jsp?top=20) i had a friend go thru the whole landmark thing and she is still the same. at least to me.

Pete Nice

05-09-2003, 12:16 PM

out here in hollyweird they got bank and property. they repaved a street by their hq with all brick and then renamed it to l ron hubbard dr or some crap like that. there are some horro stories from people who have been with them. especially if your at the bottom with no cash. you are pretty much an indentured servant. you owe them everything. i see them when i'm drunk and leaving bars. i try to push them into fighting with me, but they just look at me all mad graemlins/spanka.gif

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-09-2003, 12:17 PM

You know what is really hilarious of some of the people that gone to Landmark? My boss previously would use some of the techniques of what he'd learn to manipulate people all the time. He tried that with me and I used to say "hold up, I've been to the same courses you've gone thru and I ain't feeble." The two folk that did Landmark were very mean and nasty at work but turn into such wonderful people when we would go to Landmark functions. It's mostly a front for the closet eccentrics graemlins/rofl.gif

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-09-2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by square root:
out here in hollyweird they got bank and property. they repaved a street by their hq with all brick and then renamed it to l ron hubbard dr or some crap like that. there are some horro stories from people who have been with them. especially if your at the bottom with no cash. you are pretty much an indentured servant. you owe them everything. i see them when i'm drunk and leaving bars. i try to push them into fighting with me, but they just look at me all mad graemlins/spanka.gif Be careful, some of these folk may have connections to get rid of agitators

Pete Nice

05-09-2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by square root:
out here in hollyweird they got bank and property. they repaved a street by their hq with all brick and then renamed it to l ron hubbard dr or some crap like that. there are some horro stories from people who have been with them. especially if your at the bottom with no cash. you are pretty much an indentured servant. you owe them everything. i see them when i'm drunk and leaving bars. i try to push them into fighting with me, but they just look at me all mad graemlins/spanka.gif Be careful, some of these folk may have connections to get rid of agitators [/QUOTE]can you imagine getting taken out by travolta or cruise in navy seal outfits.
did landmark change anything about you?

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-09-2003, 12:29 PM

Yes Square, Landmark changed my outlook on life at the time. I got a better understanding with my relationship with people, my family and God. After that I start being more open with my Christianity, studying the Bible and going to church. So I really didn't see a need to continue there, when I could go to church and get some of the same life principles for free. (of course I give offerings and tithes) I don't have to pay $400 - $1000 to church for each Sunday I go.

mhd

05-09-2003, 12:37 PM

i had a friend that did the Forum in nyc and was desperately trying to recruit me and members of her family. it was pretty bizzare because all of her relationships seem to depend on whether or not you joined the forum, even the family.

julian is correct about scientologist lawyers, they are relentless in combatting criticism. they had some big cases in florida. these guys are not to be fooled with, on any level, imo

Pete Nice

05-09-2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
i had a friend that did the Forum in nyc and was desperately trying to recruit me and members of her family. it was pretty bizzare because all of her relationships seem to depend on whether or not you joined the forum, even the family.

julian is correct about scientologist lawyers, they are relentless in combatting criticism. they had some big cases in florida. these guys are not to be fooled with, on any level, imo they got lawerys destroying people left and right for telling a negative story about them. even more reason to f**k with'em. just not me though
smile.gif

Pete Nice

05-09-2003, 12:48 PM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Yes Square, Landmark changed my outlook on life at the time. I got a better understanding with my relationship with people, my family and God. After that I start being more open with my Christianity, studying the Bible and going to church. So I really didn't see a need to continue there, when I could go to church and get some of the same life principles for free. (of course I give offerings and tithes) I don't have to pay $400 - $1000 to church for each Sunday I go. that's good that it helped you. it seems a lot of what they are teaching is common sense and changing your dialogue thus changing the way you live.

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-09-2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by square root:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Yes Square, Landmark changed my outlook on life at the time. I got a better understanding with my relationship with people, my family and God. After that I start being more open with my Christianity, studying the Bible and going to church. So I really didn't see a need to continue there, when I could go to church and get some of the same life principles for free. (of course I give offerings and tithes) I don't have to pay $400 - $1000 to church for each Sunday I go. that's good that it helped you. it seems a lot of what they are teaching is common sense and changing your dialogue thus changing the way you live. [/QUOTE]Yes, basically. But you have other people that must find the "true" meaning of life so they have to keep going to find it.

I also, know of family that have turned their back on their loved ones that wouldn't attend the Forum, The last job I had wouldn't hire Managers unless they did the Landmark Forum. They were not shy to let you know either.

05-09-2003, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
I also, know of family that have turned their back on their loved ones that wouldn't attend the Forum,... wow...that sounds like that primerica thing...

Walter M. Jones

05-11-2003, 10:25 AM

Forget Scientology! What you need is here!!! (http://www.subgenius.com/)

Discogoddess

05-11-2003, 03:42 PM

@Those with bad Landmark-related experiences...

Sounds like your family/friends/colleagues weren't too stable to begin with. My husband and I recently completed the Forum, and we're not all "weirded out" and desparately trying to recruit folks to participate. They either want to explore it for themselves, or don't.

My parents and one brother did it years ago, and beyond my brother encouraging me every now and again (well, at first, he was a bit pesky), they haven't been super keen to make anyone in their lives participate. Neither my husband nor I have any desire or willingness to make people uncomfortable by pestering them to sign up for Landmark. Or, for that matter, beat them over the head with our religious beliefs or whatever.

If folks are telling you that the future of your relationship with them depends on you doing the Forum, then THEY may be taking the point of the Forum the wrong way. In short, perhaps they are crazy as hell! If you were f'ed up before the Forum, you're gonna be f'ed up after.To me, the Forum is nothing but another set of tools you can use to create possibilities (and follow through on those possibilities) for yourself...or not, just like religious beliefs, self-help book/philosophies, etc.

As for Landmark being a "money thing," I'm not so sure. The price points at which they offer their seminars are well below other business- or life skills-related training I have participated in or seen in my professional life. I say this to say I don't feel it's a pyramid scheme. However, I do sometimes feel a bit pressured to get other people involved. Seeing as LEC doesn't do any external marketing or advertising, I understand them relying on word-of-mouth to promote their business. But just like I politely decline Girl Scouts selling cookies I don't want, or Jehovah's Witnesses proselytizing at my door, I'm cool with declining the "hard sell" of Landmark.

There are several independent studies of Landmark Education, including a Harvard School of Business case study. Some are linked through the Landmark web site (I'm trying to find a link the the Harvard B-school one...I only have it in hard copy form right now).

Sorry for the book!

[ May 11, 2003, 05:18 PM: Message edited by: Discogoddess ]

P-Flipp

05-11-2003, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
@Those with bad Landmark-related experiences...

Sounds like your family/friends/colleagues weren't too stable to begin with. My husband and I recently completed the Forum, and we're not all "weirded out" and desparately trying to recruit folks to participate. They either want to explore it for themselves, or don't.

My parents and one brother did it years ago, and beyond my brother encouraging me every now and again (well, at first, he was a bit pesky), they haven't been super keen to make anyone in their lives participate. Neither my husband nor I have any desire or willingness to make people uncomfortable by pestering them to sign up for Landmark. Or, for that matter, beat them over the head with our religious beliefs or whatever.

If folks are telling you that the future of your relationship with them depends on you doing the Forum, then THEY may be taking the point of the Forum the wrong way. In short, perhaps they are crazy as hell! If you were f'ed up before the Forum, you're gonna be f'ed up after.To me, the Forum is nothing but another set of tools you can use to create possibilities (and follow through on those possibilities) for yourself...or not, just like religious beliefs, self-help book/philosophies, etc.

As for Landmark being a "money thing," I'm not so sure. The price points at which they offer their seminars are well below other business- or life skills-related training I have participated in or seen in my professional life. I say this to say I don't feel it's a pyramid scheme. However, I do sometimes feel a bit pressured to get other people involved. Seeing as LEC doesn't do any external marketing or advertising, I understand them relying on word-of-mouth to promote their business. But just like I politely decline Girl Scouts selling cookies I don't want, or Jehovah's Witnesses proselytizing at my door, I'm cool with declining the "hard sell" of Landmark.

There are several independent studies of Landmark Education, including a Harvard School of Business case study. Some are linked through the Landmark web site (I'm trying to find a link the the Harvard B-school one...I only have it in hard copy form right now).

Sorry for the book! With all due respect to what one believes, Scientology,Amway,Mormons are brainwashing cults plain and simple no ifs ands are buts.Watch out stay safe.

Bold Soul

05-11-2003, 11:05 PM

Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
I also, know of family that have turned their back on their loved ones that wouldn't attend the Forum,... wow...that sounds like that primerica thing... [/QUOTE]But then, how much of that hard-core prolesthesizing(sp?)is encouraged by the organizations and how much is just the attitude of those who feel as if they have to drag their friends and family into everything they do?

I've lost so many friends who couldn't hang with someone who wasn't as "success minded" as their latest MLM or new religious teachers advised them to be - just to see them years later and they abandoned it all in the first place - afterwards picking up on something new.

Dear friend asked me to get in Amway with them. Ugh. I asked her and her husband "If everyone's selling it - who's supposed to BUY it?"

Haven't heard from them in ten years. graemlins/rofl.gif

[ May 12, 2003, 12:15 AM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

JMNYC

05-11-2003, 11:14 PM

sorry if this offends anyone, but IMHO, all organized religions qualify as "cults". Especially when you've got commandments like "thou shalt worship no other God but me" and when the fundamental basis of the religion is to make people afraid of what God will do if they do bad things or that questioning the rationale of the religion is in and of itself a sin.

Just my opinion, and I'm certainly not trying to defend Scientology or whatever, just suggesting that people in glass houses should be careful with stones.

Want to find God?

"Look inside yourself..."

Bold Soul

05-11-2003, 11:16 PM

Discogoddess

05-11-2003, 11:41 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
[qb] I also, know of family that have turned their back on their loved ones that wouldn't attend the Forum,... wow...that sounds like that primerica thing... [/QUOTE]But then, how much of that hard-core prolesthesizing(sp?)is encouraged by the organizations and how much is just the attitude of those who feel as if they have to drag their friends and family into everything they do?...
[/QUOTE]@Bold Soul: I sooooo feel you!

the crackhouse

05-12-2003, 03:35 AM

Rickey, in France, the Scientology is considered as a sect.

Constantin

05-12-2003, 06:58 AM

same over here in germany. they lost the right to collect tax money a few years ago ( which means they lost the church status ) and are under surveillance of the bureau of inner security.

[ May 12, 2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Constantin ]

05-12-2003, 08:08 AM

so, i guess europe is way ahead in busting what they feel to be wrong-doers...i feel that if america really wanted scientology dealt with, they could do it...

i also agree with "most" organized religions being cults...i say "most" because not many have knowledge about them all...

Bold Soul

05-12-2003, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
thanks for the information, dj 138!...i have been so curious about it and i will continue to seek more info about it...have you known anyone personally involved? can you maybe sum up why folk involved have been so successful? ...were famous for their 3-day seminars where they get you in a big group and scream at you for 3 days about how you're worthless and everything you know is wrong. They won't use slepp deprivation and other tricks like not letting you go to the bathroom for a really long time. It's a classic mind-control tactic. They break your spirit then re-mold you in their image.

Again, be afraid, be very afraid. [/QUOTE]Sounds like the average ACTING CLASS in Los Angeles.
graemlins/rofl.gif No shit! graemlins/rofl.gif

Walter M. Jones

05-12-2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
so, i guess europe is way ahead in busting what they feel to be wrong-doers...i feel that if america really wanted scientology dealt with, they could do it...

i also agree with "most" organized religions being cults...i say "most" because not many have knowledge about them all... Damn "freedom of religion" thing keeps getting in the way. graemlins/cussing.gif

Anyone up for some Kool-aid in Jonestown?

Hey,there is a great guy named Charlie that has a ranch out in California and his "family" lives there. Lets go pay them a visit. I hear one of the Beach Boys will be playing there with Charlie.

I hear Janet Reno LOVES this place out in Waco.

As far as I am concerned,religion is a great way of mind control. I figure it serves as a regulator for man's natural caveman style instinct to kick the living shit out of each other a take everything they have. I don't follow any religion(I grew up Methodist),but I do think it has a place. Scientonlogy is nothing more than some crasy vision of some eccentric science-fiction writer who got away with it and is laughing all the way to the bank. Have you noticed that most of the people that are in this cult(and many others) are ex-Catholics(note I said nothing bad about Catholics).

Peace.

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-12-2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by JMNYC:
sorry if this offends anyone, but IMHO, all organized religions qualify as "cults". Especially when you've got commandments like "thou shalt worship no other God but me" and when the fundamental basis of the religion is to make people afraid of what God will do if they do bad things or that questioning the rationale of the religion is in and of itself a sin.

Just my opinion, and I'm certainly not trying to defend Scientology or whatever, just suggesting that people in glass houses should be careful with stones.

Want to find God?

"Look inside yourself..." The difference between "myself" and God is I didn't create this world or bring "myself" into this world. Believe it or not we came from somewhere. I will not start with trying to convince people that there is a God but I for one am not knocking people that choose their own path to destiny or what God to worship. We will all find out when we die. However, in order to encourage each other and to be support systems to one another there must be organized "cults" for fellowship.(whether it is the mosque, church, synague (sp) I go to church, the church I belong to do not judge others or shove religion down the throats of people attending. There are many churches like this. I believe some people are just afraid of really finding out the truth. Of course there are rules we must follow rather the rules are in the Koran, Bible, etc. We are not in this life alone.

Discogoddess, I too did the forum and a couple of courses and wasn't whacked out but 80% of the people there continue with courses and only deal with others that have completed the forum, etc. I've dealt with alot of these people on all sorts of levels and the only conversation they have is Landmark. The staff is being overworked and underpaid. An 19 year old cousin of mine worked there 6 days a week, 12 hours a day for a mere 10 dollars an hour. Her manager would feed her the same brainwashing speech that they would give the students of Landmark in order to make them believe that what they are doing would eventually pay off. I know about 20 people that continue with Landmark and haven't completed a project. They are so scattered and seem to have no direction in their lives.

So in my opinion, people that are trying to find themselves will never be found until they spend time with themselves and do some self-evaluation.

[ May 12, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

Discogoddess

05-12-2003, 02:52 PM

@DiscoLady: I agree with you about a lot, most especially this:

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
So in my opinion, people that are trying to find themselves will never be found until they spend time with themselves and do some self-evaluation. However, I don't think that Landmark (or anything else) necessarily brainwashes people. I wonder if these folk are too willing to give their power to other people/belief systems/etc. in the first place.

I also think that no amount of praying, learning/studying Scripture/holy texts, tithing, meditating, reading self-help books, attending seminars, dehydrating in a sweat lodge or smoking the peace pipe will change or turn anyone into anything they aren't willing to commit to, and most importantly, follow through on.