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View Full Version : Citizen Patrols of a Neighborhood: good idea? armed?



BrazenMuse
08-19-2007, 07:06 AM
On the one hand, I'm a little twitchy that some of these cats are carrying guns, but, on the other hand, I admire what this community is doing and think that more should do the same (maybe without the guns but with vests)


Good news, Mr. Greer said: Their neighborhood, near Edgewood Park in the city’s western end, was quiet this evening. But he advised Mr. Brooks to keep an eye on the crowd of young people on Hobart Street.
For the past two months, Mr. Greer, Mr. Brooks and fellow volunteers in the Edgewood Park Defense Patrol — half of whom carry guns — have walked and biked through this neighborhood nightly to bring a sense of safety to an area they said had experienced an increase in crime and a decrease in police patrols.
Though Mayor John DeStefano Jr. has called the patrols a “recipe for disaster,” members of the group said that they had not once pulled out a gun, and the authorities acknowledged that violent crime had gone down in Edgewood since the patrols began.
“The last thing we want to do is draw a weapon,” said Mr. Greer, the founder of the defense patrol and the director of the Edgewood Neighborhood Association. “We have one agenda: clearing the neighborhood of thugs and getting people who work all day, pay mortgages, send kids to college, to enjoy the homes they’ve invested in.”
Earlier, Mr. Greer made his rounds with another member of the patrol, Avi Hack, 32. Their attire incorporated elements of Orthodox Judaism and a quasi police force: a skullcap; an undergarment with fringes, called tzitzit; and a black T-shirt that had “Edgewood Park Defense Patrol” on the back. Mr. Greer also carried a gun.
As Mr. Greer and Mr. Hack walked the streets, some lined with restored Victorian homes and others not so tidy, they searched for any signs of trouble.
Typically, patrol members call the police if something looks suspicious, although they decided that the youths and the car posed no threat. They spent most of their time chatting with passers-by in this diverse neighborhood, which has a large racial minority population in addition to many Jewish residents.
“Keep patrolling,” pleaded Lakeisha Singleton, a lawyer who had pulled her car to the side of the road to greet Mr. Greer. Her 1-year-old son, Michael, sat in a car seat in back. “We need you here,” Ms. Singleton said.
Though crime has been cut in half in New Haven over the last two decades and is down 10 percent over all this year from the year before, shootings are up about 50 percent this year, and Mr. Greer has called for the police chief, Francisco Ortiz, to resign.
Mr. Greer and his father, Rabbi Daniel Greer, dean of the yeshiva, have spent the last two decades restoring more than 40 dilapidated homes here and leasing them at no profit to low- and middle-income families. As a result, the neighborhood “has been on the upswing” since its days as a haunt for prostitutes in the 1980s, said Elizabeth McCormack, the neighborhood’s alderwoman.
But in recent years, the crime that once plagued the neighborhood began to return, and the Greers raised the idea of armed patrols after they said they got little help from the police. Crime worsened this spring, coming to a head when Mr. Greer’s brother, Dov, a rabbi like his father, was followed into his Edgewood home by several young men and assaulted.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/19/nyregion/19haven.html

drop
08-19-2007, 08:18 AM
brown shirts
nazi's
kkk
lynch mob

bad idea

BrazenMuse
08-19-2007, 08:21 AM
brown shirts
nazi's
kkk
lynch mob

bad idea

no positive examples? what does one do when police presence doesn't suffice? I rather think these people in this particular story are on to something with this patrolling thing, and they've gotten the Guardian Angels involved.
Is Newark a place where maybe this would be a good idea, although dangerous?

People tend to act up more when they think no one is looking...remember Gladwell's Tipping Point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tipping_Point_%28book%29) and the Broken Windows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broken_Windows) theory? I don't think that the zero tolerance BS with mandatory sentencing is a good way to go, but I do buy that if there are broken/unrepaired windows and graffiti in an area, those things spawn more similar things and make people feel that the space is indeed ripe for clandestine and criminal behavior. I think that reclaiming and cleaning up are good things, but risky in their early stages...

There's some dispute about how application of the Kelling/Coles and the Gladwell in NYC worked out, but I don't discount them entirely.

drop
08-19-2007, 08:47 AM
i can't think anything positive that comes from putting more guns out on the street. were you the one who was talking about changing the world one person at a time? under the circumstances that the best anyone can do short of violence.

you can always remember thomas hobbs:
the people always have the obligation of replacing a government that fails to meets their needs. according to maslow security is the primary need so i suggest lighting a fire under the governments ass.

of course you risk a typical government response: a plea for more security is always an invitation for a police state, that includes arming the citizens.

jimmymack-2000
08-19-2007, 10:51 AM
BrazenMuse, it's not all about armed patrols. I thought this was the most interesting part of the passage you quoted (and the story):

<i>Mr. Greer and his father, Rabbi Daniel Greer, dean of the yeshiva, have spent the last two decades restoring more than 40 dilapidated homes here and leasing them at no profit to low- and middle-income families. As a result, the neighborhood “has been on the upswing” since its days as a haunt for prostitutes in the 1980s, said Elizabeth McCormack, the neighborhood’s alderwoman.</i>

Clearly, these folks are determined to take back their community by any means, whether it's patrolling the streets to deter crime, or buying up crack houses and bring "good" families from the neighborhood a leg-up. Commendable.

BrazenMuse
08-19-2007, 11:01 AM
i can't think anything positive that comes from putting more guns out on the street. were you the one who was talking about changing the world one person at a time? under the circumstances that the best anyone can do short of violence.

you can always remember thomas hobbs:
the people always have the obligation of replacing a government that fails to meets their needs. according to maslow security is the primary need so i suggest lighting a fire under the governments ass.

of course you risk a typical government response: a plea for more security is always an invitation for a police state, that includes arming the citizens.
I don't necessarily believe neighborhood patrols need guns. In fact, I think that's my least favorite thing about this particular article. I do, however, think that neighborhood patrols are a great idea and that they do serve a few purposes: getting people involved makes them more aware of what they have at stake, creates a more active citizenry.

The gun thing doesn't work for me, for instance, because I seem to recall that the groups which later became the scourges known as the crips and bloods were initially some sort of activism against neighborhood blight. Correct me if I'm wrong but I seem to recall that from something I read about Tookie Williams before his execution. Notice that I started out by saying that the gun angle made me a bit twitchy, drop.

This article seems to reflect a positive effect. That the guys starting it also were buying and renovating houses makes some difference, no? Is the positivity in this article an abberation? Would it not be a good idea to get people off the "stop snitching" tip and get people involved? I'm concerned that people would need flak vests and that some would get hurt early on in such a program and that people involved would need to be aware and willing to cope with that, but if coordinated with the current law enforcement, why not? The climate that makes gangs attractive is usually marked by a passive and victimized citizenry. Specifically in Newark, I think this might be one of the possible solutions...

BrazenMuse
08-19-2007, 11:03 AM
BrazenMuse, it's not all about armed patrols. I thought this was the most interesting part of the passage you quoted (and the story):

Mr. Greer and his father, Rabbi Daniel Greer, dean of the yeshiva, have spent the last two decades restoring more than 40 dilapidated homes here and leasing them at no profit to low- and middle-income families. As a result, the neighborhood “has been on the upswing” since its days as a haunt for prostitutes in the 1980s, said Elizabeth McCormack, the neighborhood’s alderwoman.

Clearly, these folks are determined to take back their community by any means, whether it's patrolling the streets to deter crime, or buying up crack houses and bring "good" families from the neighborhood a leg-up. Commendable.

Very interesting indeed...and an important bit of the story...the Rabbi Greer and his family have a vested interest in having the neighborhood thrive. Who has such interest in Newark's neighborhoods? Sharpe James' policies of selling off tracts to profiteers did not generate any such thing. What now? Especially since some of those sales are being rescinded now.

D J 1 3 8
08-19-2007, 12:02 PM
Is this Connecticut?
It's legal for citizens to carry loaded guns in Connecticut?

Bad idea IMO. These people are not trained properly. And you can bet, first time they kill somebody, the victim's family is gonna sue the city for allowing a bunch of gun-toting vigilantes to decide right and wrong.

Martin Red
08-19-2007, 12:25 PM
vigilantes

http://media.collegepublisher.com/media/paper285/stills/6466it66.jpg

are they still about
do they carry guns
did they impove things ?

D J 1 3 8
08-19-2007, 12:35 PM
are they still about

Barely. Purely mild amusement at this point from what I've seen. Like seeing a throwback BBoy in Sergio Tachini and Lottos.



do they carry guns

No. Thank God.



did they impove things ?

Some would say so. Having come across them a few times in the 80s, they seemed like complete morons to me. Thuggish jocks looking to bash in a few heads in the name of self righteousness. Their "people=skills" left much to be desired.

And their founder, Curtis Sliwa, is an utter buffoon. He admitted to staging crimes in order to stop them on more than one occasion. He was out for fame, and it worked. He now has a syndicated radio show and John Gotti tried to have him wacked.

Sal Paradise
08-19-2007, 01:45 PM
Barely. Purely mild amusement at this point from what I've seen. Like seeing a throwback BBoy in Sergio Tachini and Lottos.



No. Thank God.



Some would say so. Having come across them a few times in the 80s, they seemed like complete morons to me. Thuggish jocks looking to bash in a few heads in the name of self righteousness. Their "people=skills" left much to be desired.

And their founder, Curtis Sliwa, is an utter buffoon. He admitted to staging crimes in order to stop them on more than one occasion. He was out for fame, and it worked. He now has a syndicated radio show and John Gotti tried to have him wacked.

Even in the 80's I always remember every one clowning the Guardian Angels.

IMO Armed Citizen patrols are an awful idea. If I lived in that community I'd feel compelled to hold a gun just to protect my self from them.

Martin Red
08-19-2007, 02:06 PM
Barely. Purely mild amusement at this point from what I've seen. Like seeing a throwback BBoy in Sergio Tachini and Lottos.



No. Thank God.



Some would say so. Having come across them a few times in the 80s, they seemed like complete morons to me. Thuggish jocks looking to bash in a few heads in the name of self righteousness. Their "people=skills" left much to be desired.

And their founder, Curtis Sliwa, is an utter buffoon. He admitted to staging crimes in order to stop them on more than one occasion. He was out for fame, and it worked. He now has a syndicated radio show and John Gotti tried to have him wacked.


blimey :)

BrazenMuse
08-19-2007, 06:13 PM
Even in the 80's I always remember every one clowning the Guardian Angels.

IMO Armed Citizen patrols are an awful idea. If I lived in that community I'd feel compelled to hold a gun just to protect my self from them.

what about an unarmed patrol, with maybe video cameras and bulletproof vests, cellphones and the like?