Who Knew? Black Germans?

[DaBownca]

http://www.blink.org.uk/print.asp?key=13948

[jojaujae3]

I'm not surprised. Thanks for this info though:thumbsup:

[Edith A. Giles]

http://www.blink.org.uk/print.asp?key=13948

I knew there were Black Germans, but I did not realize that they too, were place in concentration camps...

Up until I read this thread, nobody even KNEW that there were Black Germans in the camps.

PLEASE bump!!!!!

[chldfknungrnd764]

Waiting for the movie.

Do they get reparations like the Jews who survived the camps?

[Edith A. Giles]

Do they get reparations like the Jews who survived the camps?

Probably not...:rolleyes:

[chldfknungrnd764]

Their story is largely untold, their battle for compensation mostly fruitless.


This definately has escaped the history books over the years.

[Reggie McKeever]

The Holocaust Museum in D.C. does make reference to some experiments conducted on people of African descent. But, it was never clear to me who these people were. For the most part, African Americans weren't allowed to be much more than cooks and musicians in the U.S. army. I'm sure some may have been captured. But, I figured the bulk these patients where Africans fighting on behalf of the French, from Senegal or something, and were captured during the occupation of France.

This is an extremely fascinating story. Thank you very much, DaBownca, for posting it.

[chldfknungrnd764]

Definately a thread to pass on to others.

[NakedAge]

The Holocaust Museum in D.C. does make reference to some experiments conducted on people of African descent. But, it was never clear to me who these people were. For the most part, African Americans weren't allowed to be much more than cooks and musicians in the U.S. army. I'm sure some may have been captured. But, I figured the bulk these patients where Africans fighting on behalf of the French, from Senegal or something, and were captured during the occupation of France.

This is an extremely fascinating story. Thank you very much, DaBownca, for posting it.



Isn't that what the movie 'Boys from Brazil' is about? Or something similar? (I can't really remember the movie)

But seriously... If you know anything about WW2 how could you think that black people just magically escaped Hitlers wrath? Especially if you know anything about Hitlers ideology. I always kinda thought it was common knowledge that black people were sent away and bad things happend to them, because they were black. Gays aswell. Handicapped were made sterile etc.

[DaBownca]

Isn't that what the movie 'Boys from Brazil' is about? Or something similar? (I can't really remember the movie)

But seriously... If you know anything about WW2 how could you think that black people just magically escaped Hitlers wrath? Especially if you know anything about Hitlers ideology. I always kinda thought it was common knowledge that black people were sent away and bad things happend to them, because they were black. Gays aswell. Handicapped were made sterile etc.
A lot of the things you mentioned aren't taught as the focus is on the Jewish Holocast. I consider myself fairly intelligent and I had no idea there were Blacks livingt in Germany at that particular time. You would think they would at least mention it when referring to his treatment of Jesse Owens and remarks about Joe Louis

[mhd]

Hans Massaquoi wrote a book, destined to witness, about his time growing up black in germany, i met him years ago when he delivered a lecture at the holocaust museum, ironically, his son, also hans, grew up in hyde park and is now a lawyer - and a nice guy, the elder hans was a famous photographer for ebony for many, many years.

many of the black germans in concentration camps were from the congo and living/serving in the belgian army, thanks to leopold.

as for black germans, we have our very own esteemed member, ngeso

[DaBownca]

Hans Massaquoi wrote a book, destined to witness, about his time growing up black in germany, i met him years ago when he delivered a lecture at the holocaust museum, ironically, his son, also hans, grew up in hyde park and is now a lawyer - and a nice guy, the elder hans was a famous photographer for ebony for many, many years.

many of the black germans in concentration camps were from the congo and living/serving in the belgian army, thanks to leopold.

as for black germans, we have our very own esteemed member, ngeso
Thanx for the info ...just a heads up The title was simplt to make people look at the thread I guess I could've been more creative but .....

[larry rauson]

The Black Germans you refer to are called The Rhineland Bastards....They were the children of German women and African soldiers stationed in the Rhineland after WWI, they were among the first to be rounded up, sterilized, experimented upon, placed in camps, estimates range from 10-400,000, or just disappeared. The history of Africans in Germany is spotty, but not impossible to find...you'll find that towards the end of WWII, there were Black pilots flying for the German Luftwaffe...

lpr

[Reggie McKeever]

Isn't that what the movie 'Boys from Brazil' is about? Or something similar? (I can't really remember the movie)

But seriously... If you know anything about WW2 how could you think that black people just magically escaped Hitlers wrath? Especially if you know anything about Hitlers ideology. I always kinda thought it was common knowledge that black people were sent away and bad things happend to them, because they were black. Gays aswell. Handicapped were made sterile etc.

Uh, no the Boy's from Brazil was not about that. And, yes, I know something about WWII. I, at one time was a History Major with a concentration on 20th Century Europe before I decided I could get a better job with an engineering degree. In addition, my 85 year old grandfather, who is Black, served in WWII. I don't think anybody believes that Black people would have escaped Hitler should they have crossed his path. The fact that people of African Ancestry actually did cross Hitlers path is what's surprising and not common knowledge. Furthermore, the fact that the stories are underdocumented and efforts to bring them to the forefront have been undermined with trivial excuses is a bit alarming.

My statement referenced the fact that I did not know the origin of the African descendants caught up in the Holocaust. I thought the bulk of them where captured soldiers fighting on behalf of the European countries that colonized their homeland. And to be clear, a significant part of the war was waged in North Africa. But, I doubt they where shipping Africans back to European concentration camps. Hitlers ideology focused on eradicating non Aryans from the European mainland. Not bringing them in.

[Reggie McKeever]

...you'll find that towards the end of WWII, there were Black pilots flying for the German Luftwaffe...

lpr

Now that's something I definatly did not know and I would certainly like to learn more about.

[P-Flipp]

Fascinating but also harrowing!Thanks Dawbonca!

[BrazenMuse]

Isn't that what the movie 'Boys from Brazil' is about? Or something similar? (I can't really remember the movie)

But seriously... If you know anything about WW2 how could you think that black people just magically escaped Hitlers wrath? Especially if you know anything about Hitlers ideology. I always kinda thought it was common knowledge that black people were sent away and bad things happend to them, because they were black. Gays aswell. Handicapped were made sterile etc.

don't forget the gypsies (Roma) also...in fact, anyone who seemed "out of place" in terms of the propaganda constructions of who was and wasn't properly part of the Reich was fair game.

[larry rauson]

Uh, no the Boy's from Brazil was not about that. And, yes, I know something about WWII. I, at one time was a History Major with a concentration on 20th Century Europe before I decided I could get a better job with an engineering degree. In addition, my 85 year old grandfather, who is Black, served in WWII. I don't think anybody believes that Black people would have escaped Hitler should they have crossed his path. The fact that people of African Ancestry actually did cross Hitlers path is what's surprising and not common knowledge. Furthermore, the fact that the stories are underdocumented and efforts to bring them to the forefront have been undermined with trivial excuses is a bit alarming.

My statement referenced the fact that I did not know the origin of the African descendants caught up in the Holocaust. I thought the bulk of them where captured soldiers fighting on behalf of the European countries that colonized their homeland. And to be clear, a significant part of the war was waged in North Africa. But, I doubt they where shipping Africans back to European concentration camps. Hitlers ideology focused on eradicating non Aryans from the European mainland. Not bringing them
in.

You HAVE to read Mein Kampf to truly understand how deeply Hitler hated Africans, maybe more than Jews...Hitler in referencing the Jews, I'm paraphrasing here, are morally debased, but at least they make white babies, a negr makes a negr... after reading you might make the argument that the Holocaust was a numbers game...wipe out all the Jews of Eastern Europe, then concentrate on the Blacks in France and Belgium

lpr

[dekmusic]

history is often a slate wiped clean......
telling only those stories that benifit the
causes of the more vocal often leaving out
the stories and experiences of those they consider
less than.

[NakedAge]

don't forget the gypsies (Roma) also...in fact, anyone who seemed "out of place" in terms of the propaganda constructions of who was and wasn't properly part of the Reich was fair game.

Thats what I mean. Like, because of that I always kinda just assumed that blacks were included in his crimes.

I still don't understand how people can denie the holocaust tho.

Maybe one day, in the new testiment version 2.0, the holocaust will be written as a parable or something.. Kinda like Moses parting the sea.

What frightens me is the level of anti semitism I see today. The level of hatred towards blacks, or jews, or muslims or gays or, just generally people who are different to those doing the hating. Its like, we lost 6 million good jews, All the russian soldiers, american soldiers, the Anzacs, the british soldiers, canadians, afrikans, italians, greeks, chinese, japanese etc etc etc.. We lost all these GOOD decent people to this war. People died so we could be accepted, and fucken, all this segregation remains. Black, white, jew what ever. I think it's important to learn more the moral lessons of the holocaust than the statistics.

[ngeso]

The history of black people in Germany remains practically unexamined. Factually there is no public awareness about black people and their times and fates in this country or its former colonies. There is no education at school level, there are no departments of African-German studies at universities, available literature comprises of no more than perhaps twenty or thirty books. As there is no critical study of blackness, there is no critical study of whiteness either.

Thus, to the average German, the subject of black race doesn't really exist. And since blackness doesn't exist, all race-based complexes (including racism past and present) do not exist.

[BrazenMuse]

The history of black people in Germany remains practically unexamined. Factually there is no public awareness about black people and their times and fates in this country or its former colonies. There is no education at school level, there are no departments of African-German studies at universities, available literature comprises of no more than perhaps twenty or thirty books. As there is no critical study of blackness, there is no critical study of whiteness either.

Thus, to the average German, the subject of black race doesn't really exist. And since blackness doesn't exist, all race-based complexes (including racism past and present) do not exist.
:shudder:

That's a great deal of work left undone. The climate is probably not a friendly one for that sort of work either...

[kaaos]

:shudder:wow, i have never heard of this. thanks for posting.

[kara]

A lot of the things you mentioned aren't taught as the focus is on the Jewish Holocast. I consider myself fairly intelligent and I had no idea there were Blacks livingt in Germany at that particular time. You would think they would at least mention it when referring to his treatment of Jesse Owens and remarks about Joe Louis

i didnt know about it either :conf44:

thanks for posting. i feel stupid for having not known about this.

[Fletch]

Related topic.......here's an interview with 1936 Olympic 400m Gold Medalist Archie Williams. I pasted the part of German treatment of Black athletes in Berlin in 1936. Now, of course, How Germans treated Black American athletes v. it's own Black citizens may have been like night and day, but it is an interesting perspective......

The entire interview......
http://content.cdlib.org/dynaxml/servlet/dynaXML?docId=kt0v19n496&doc.view=entire_text

The part about German treatment.......
Average Germans' Response; Intra-Olympics Tensions
Morris
Did anybody have any anxieties about the fact that Hitler and the Nazis were in control of the government?


Williams
No. That was something that again makes good copy. I can speak for the black athletes. They treated us probably better than anybody else. They idolized us. They all wanted to come to us. They wanted autographs. They wanted to take us to their house to meet their family. They wanted to do things for us, take you for a ride in their car.


Morris
This is just the average German folks on the streets?


Williams
Average German. Even the athletes, the same way. They were real friendly. They were just a bunch of young college guys. That's what the Olympics were all about. We were all friends, you know. I heard about this politics. I didn't know too much about that at all. They said Hitler was a bad guy. He don't like Jews and he don't like blacks. I said, "Who cares? That's his problem." I didn't worry about it.


Morris
That's what is really interesting, because the echo is still around now that the German officials did not want to give the gold medals to black athletes who won.


Williams
They didn't give the medals. You see, the Germans built the stadium and were the hosts, but everything was done by the committee. Most of them were French and Belgians. Just Europeans. The Olympic Committee ran the thing. The Germans couldn't say anything about how it was conducted. They just furnished everything. They furnished the stadium and all our logistics and all.

There was a lot of talk about--. Well, there were some Jewish boys, two Jewish boys, who didn't get to compete: Sam Stoller and Marty Glickman. Marty Glickman, you might have heard of him. Later on, he became a famous announcer; he announced basketball games in New York. Anyway, they went over as alternates for the 400-meter relay. They were the only two track athletes who went that never got to compete. They were the only ones who never got to do anything. And the main reason was good old Dean Cromwell, the coach from USC, he was one of the big shots as far as the coaches. He had two runners, Floyd Draper and Frank Wykoff. He would make sure that his two boys got into the relay. Put it this way: the word was that Draper was the one who made sure that Sam Stoller and Marty Glickman didn't compete.


Morris
That would suggest that if there was discrimination on race, it was on this side of the Atlantic.


Williams
Exactly. It wasn't racial. He was against any white boys who were going to be against his white boys. In other words, for the relay you had Jesse Owens and Ralph Metcalfe, who had just gotten one-two in the hundred meters. They could put anybody in, two other guys, they could even put me in there, anybody else in there--.


Morris
And those two would win the race.


Williams
Oh, yes. They won the race. They gave fifty yards in the first part of it.


Morris
The first lane.


Williams
They won by so damn much. The picture didn't even show the other guys in the race. They could have had anybody to run. So there was a little squawk. They are still talking about it now. They're saying that the reason that these two guys didn't get to compete was that they were Jewish, but that's not the main reason. The main reason was that they weren't from USC. [laughter] That's right. There is a lot of politics in that stuff. In fact, it could happen nowadays. In other words, the people who are running the Olympics, they can more or less decide who does what and so forth.


Morris
It is interesting, looking back on it now, that there were nine black guys on the American team. That sounds like quite a lot for those days.


Williams
We won more medals than the rest of the team.


Morris
Absolutely.


Williams
Jesse Owens won four. In fact, every one of us. There was only one guy who didn't get a medal, Johnnie Brooks. He was a long-jumper from Chicago. Every one of us got a medal. I'll show you the medal.


Morris
I would like to see that.

[background noise as Williams goes to get the medal].


Morris
[Reads medal] "Archie Williams, 400-meter run, 46.5 seconds." That's beautiful. I just happened to bring my camera along. If you don't mind, I would like to take a picture. [see frontispiece] It isn't often I get to meet the winner of an Olympic medal.

Have you been over to the campus to see your picture in Sproul Hall?


Williams
I've seen the ones in the football stadium [Athletic Hall of Fame].


Morris
Let's get your medal in the picture.


Williams
There.


Morris
[Takes picture] That's great. Thank you. I'll take another just to be on the safe side. [Takes second photo] There we go.

[LadyA. Acacia]

Do they get reparations like the Jews who survived the camps?

yeah riiiiight

[kara]

yeah riiiiight

so you're saying that reparations were only made to jewish victims?

i could be wrong, but i don't think that's true.

[DaBownca]

so you're saying that reparations were only made to jewish victims?

i could be wrong, but i don't think that's true.
Who else then?

[bartonn]

Reparations were paid to organizations. There is a big scandal going on in Israel now, because survivors are getting something in the order of $20 a week, and these foundations are hording the money. This is not much different from the foundations that were set up post 9/11 to help families affected, but are also now hording the money.

[kara]

Who else then?

reparations are being made to victims of the war, regardless of race or religion


" In point of fact, most of the funds for slave and forced laborers will go to deserving non-Jews too long forgotten."

"Slave Laborers, Jewish and non-Jewish, who lived in concentration camps while they were forced to work, will receive the highest per capita allocation, because they were being worked to death. "

http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/ga7-000717e.htm

[LadyA. Acacia]

so you're saying that reparations were only made to jewish victims?

i could be wrong, but i don't think that's true.

no, not only jewish victims. im sure japanese victims, indians, eskimos, and other non-africkan victims got reparations. not just jewish

[ngeso]

What reparations are being talked about, to what body or persons, and by what body or persons? The government as successor to the Nazi regime? Private industry? The individual taxpayer?

[kara]

no, not only jewish victims. im sure japanese victims, indians, eskimos, and other non-africkan victims got reparations. not just jewish

are you saying they are making reparations to ALL victims of holocaust EXCEPT black victims????

[D J 1 3 8]

When the reparations debate went down in the 50s, many Israelis were vehemently opposed to reparations, as they saw the act of accepting money as compensation as a form of accepting an apology from the Nazis.

[LadyA. Acacia]

hmmmm. im not sure if thats true but imma guess yes since i think you want a 'yes or no' answer.
i hadnt even known there were black germans before reading this.

[kara]

When the reparations debate went down in the 50s, many Israelis were vehemently opposed to reparations, as they saw the act of accepting money as compensation as a form of accepting an apology from the Nazis.

and they believe it makes the memory of such a large tragedy become a memory about money dealing ... like, it belittles what happend in the minds of others as they remember more the working out of reparations rather than the holocaust itself

shit, i didnt say that clearly did i? i'm hungover. struggling to communicate. i need coffee. again.

[jimmymack-2000]

...im sure japanese victims, indians, eskimos, and other non-africkan victims got reparations...


hmmmm. im not sure if thats true...

Make up your fucking mind.

[kara]

hmmmm. im not sure if thats true but imma guess yes since i think you want a 'yes or no' answer.
i hadnt even known there were black germans before reading this.

damn, that'd be really fucked up. i don't know either, and i can't find a clear article that mentions race - they just keep saying 'nonjews'

:conf44:

[DaBownca]

reparations are being made to victims of the war, regardless of race or religion


" In point of fact, most of the funds for slave and forced laborers will go to deserving non-Jews too long forgotten."

"Slave Laborers, Jewish and non-Jewish, who lived in concentration camps while they were forced to work, will receive the highest per capita allocation, because they were being worked to death. "

http://usa.usembassy.de/etexts/ga7-000717e.htm
That I was aware of but was staying true tothe original topic ofthe post ....Black Germans

[kara]

That I was aware of but was staying true tothe original topic ofthe post ....Black Germans

i understand the point of the topic, but i think it's wrong to misrepresent the holocaust and events surrounding it.

so i questioned someone about an assumption

carry on

[jimmymack-2000]

Here's an interesting story...scroll down to the piece titled "Reparations for the African people Germany wants to forget"...

<a href="http://www.swagga.com/global.htm">http://www.swagga.com/global.htm</a>

[ngeso]

That I was aware of but was staying true tothe original topic ofthe post ....Black Germans



If anything, Black Germans are probably contributing to reparations rather than receiving any. Last time I looked on my tax returns, there was no box for me to tick being black, thus exempting me from certain tax payments.

[DaBownca]

i understand the point of the topic, but i think it's wrong to misrepresent the holocaust and events surrounding it.

so i questioned someone about an assumption

carry on
Where was the misrepresentation did imiss it?

[jimmymack-2000]

If anything, Black Germans are probably contributing to reparations rather than receiving any. Last time I looked on my tax returns, there was no box for me to tick being black, thus exempting me from certain tax payments.

Doesn't that place you in the same situation as Black Americans supporting reparations from the US government for slavery, then?

[BrazenMuse]

Where was the misrepresentation did imiss it?
mayhap misrepresentation is too strong a word. the previous page is almost entirely posts trying to sort out who else aside from Jews might have gotten or been eligible for reparations. Looks to me like Kara is looking for the information on who else got reparations, before people run with the idea that none were made to nonjewish victims ...

It is interesting that ngeso points out that he's not been given some instrument for claiming any reparations, one wonders who has and through what means, one also wonders how many generations forward that reparation might go. One generation after the war? Two?

[ngeso]

Doesn't that place you in the same situation as Black Americans supporting reparations from the US government for slavery, then?


Yes, possibly.

I was just trying to test out, whether reparations are perceived as a direct, personal entitlement. I don't think reparations can work that way, because it is too difficult to individually establish whether one is entitled to reparations or not.

I have no idea, whether I am entitled, and I am fairly certain that it is the same with most mixed-race Afrogermans - from a perspective of personal heritage you're essentially half-victim, half-perpetrator.

[BrazenMuse]

Yes, possibly.

I was just trying to test out, whether reparations are perceived as a direct, personal entitlement. I don't think reparations can work that way, because it is too difficult to individually establish whether one is entitled to reparations or not.

I have no idea, whether I am entitled, and I am fairly certain that it is the same with most mixed-race Afrogermans - from a perspective of personal heritage you're essentially half-victim, half-perpetrator.

scary isn't it? difficult to resolve also. For all that African-Americans are at least partly descended from victims, most are also descended from the slave owners. What we have in common is on the right side of the hyphen and we HAVE to own that or we will self destruct. Baldwin said it and i agree.

[the crackhouse]

You know, from a french point of view, the Nazis and the holocaust were something that people would have prefered to forget at the end of the war.

So I think it was divided into courts for war crimes and courts for the jewish holocaust.

There were the statistics, of course balck, gypsies, white, every "race" that has been threatenned or killed have been in courts against nazis crimes, but when you have black german (or french or belgium) groups who didn't have a leader or a majority in any way, they were not the biggest part of the problem.
They didn't have a "voice". Most of them have been taken from Africa for the WW1, and in Europe they were not considered as friends or even "normal" citizen.

Edit: That means you can replace "black" by any of the minorities like Gypsies, Homosexuals, Handicaped persons, not affiliated to a country or a religion.

Idance