The Problem With Dance Music

[TAD]

it wasn't my intention to start another thread on house/dance music but i felt i needed to write this. for all i know it may have been a waste of time.

i've been reading all the different threads about the death of house, the profitability of "commercial" hip hop due to business saavy and more recently julian kelly's thread "maybe we can learn somethin from hip hop" (which actually inspired me to write this) & what i'm failing to see is a real indepth search into the mechanisms of the corporate machine that has allowed "commercial" hip hop & r&b to flourish & more importantly WHY? and please don't tell me there's more money to be made with "commercial" hip hop. although there is truth in that statementthere would be no money if there was no money behind it.

i'd like to hear what people have to say concerning this. do you feel there is some sort of unseen deliberate plan to keep dance music down? is the rave culture & by extension the dance culture being framed or bullied into submission by the powers that be? does the corporate machine & the governing body that rules this country fear the power that dance music has? the power to UNITE people of all colours & creeds as the house manifesto proudly declares? "THIS IS OUR HOUSE & OUR HOUSE MUSIC" Does rave culture reflect the turbulent 60's & the power the hippie movement had in swaying public opinion?


Is "commercial" hip hop & r&b a mind numbing force that allows youth to further alienate themselves from their families, friends & society creating a world filled with illusion, pipedreams, a lot of sex & violence & thus a perfect tool to be used as a divide & conquer mechanism. (remember the black power movement of the late 60's early 70's was abruptly terminated when red, black & green became a fashion statement)

i feel these are issues that lie at the heart of the problem with dance music & need to be researched & addressed.

discuss

forgive my lack of focus, just got up from a long night.

[Dolemite73]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
it wasn't my intention to start another thread on house/dance music but i felt i needed to write this. for all i know it may have been a waste of time.

i've been reading all the different threads about the death of house, the profitability of "commercial" hip hop due to business saavy and more recently julian kelly's thread "maybe we can learn somethin from hip hop" (which actually inspired me to write this) & what i'm failing to see is a real indepth search into the mechanisms of the corporate machine that has allowed "commercial" hip hop & r&b to flourish & more importantly WHY? and please don't tell me there's more money to be made with "commercial" hip hop. although there is truth in that statementthere would be no money if there was no money behind it.

i'd like to hear what people have to say concerning this. do you feel there is some sort of unseen deliberate plan to keep dance music down? is the rave culture & by extension the dance culture being framed or bullied into submission by the powers that be? does the corporate machine & the governing body that rules this country fear the power that dance music has? the power to UNITE people of all colours & creeds as the house manifesto proudly declares? "THIS IS OUR HOUSE & OUR HOUSE MUSIC" Does rave culture reflect the turbulent 60's & the power the hippie movement had in swaying public opinion?


Is "commercial" hip hop & r&b a mind numbing force that allows youth to further alienate themselves from their families, friends & society creating a world filled with illusion, pipedreams, a lot of sex & violence & thus a perfect tool to be used as a divide & conquer mechanism. (remember the black power movement of the late 60's early 70's was abruptly terminated when red, black & green became a fashion statement)

i feel these are issues that lie at the heart of the problem with dance music & need to be researched & addressed.

discuss

forgive my lack of focus, just got up from a long night. Once the big corporations(Clear Channel, Cumulus, etc.) bought up most of the radio stations nationwide, it truly limited what one can hear on the radio. Its a modern day payola system in a way. You gotta pay to get your shit played. Since we as a house community are small, we cant get our stuff exposed liked commercial hip-hop can. And I dont see a way for that to change.

[Cheddar]

If I were making Dance Music it would be about the MAN & COPNSPIRACIES.

But on the real side it isnt an attempt to keep dance music down, its just that Sex and Violence make money. Look at the Porn Industry and Hollywood. That shit sells and HIP HOP is studded with both. Money makes money when put in the right place and for the people in the board room..this hip hop is like a guyser. The world is Captivated with the Black man promoting this lethal lifestyle while taking every other moment to degrade the female. ITS SO COOL!!

[ultra]

Just as Dolemite stated, until the big guys decide that it's time for the masses to hear 'deep house', it won't happen. Just as many who have made it in the industry (hip-hop or other), it only takes ONE person or entity to hear your stuff (or see your stuff in my case) for you to make it into the bigtime. This is Just Blaze's story. When we used to hang in the early 90's, he was an apprentice at a recording studio. One day, Jay-Z was in the studio and overheard one of his tracks and instantly signed him as a Roc-a-Fella producer. Now you can't watch a video or hear a song he hasn't produced or stars in.


Originally posted by Dolemite73:
Once the big corporations(Clear Channel, Cumulus, etc.) bought up most of the radio stations nationwide, it truly limited what one can hear on the radio. Its a modern day payola system in a way. You gotta pay to get your shit played. Since we as a house community are small, we cant get our stuff exposed liked commercial hip-hop can. And I dont see a way for that to change.

[TAD]

Originally posted by ultra:
Just as Dolemite stated, until the big guys decide that it's time for the masses to hear 'deep house', it won't happen. Just as many who have made it in the industry (hip-hop or other), it only takes ONE person or entity to hear your stuff (or see your stuff in my case) for you to make it into the bigtime. This is Just Blaze's story. When we used to hang in the early 90's, he was an apprentice at a recording studio. One day, Jay-Z was in the studio and overheard one of his tracks and instantly signed him as a Roc-a-Fella producer. Now you can't watch a video or hear a song he hasn't produced or stars in.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dolemite73:
Once the big corporations(Clear Channel, Cumulus, etc.) bought up most of the radio stations nationwide, it truly limited what one can hear on the radio. Its a modern day payola system in a way. You gotta pay to get your shit played. Since we as a house community are small, we cant get our stuff exposed liked commercial hip-hop can. And I dont see a way for that to change. </font>[/QUOTE]i understand the whole clear channel conspiracy. my question is why haven't they decided & will they ever, considering dance music's power to bring people together peacefully. besides the $$ motive, is there a hidden agenda? although you won't find revolutionary lyrics in dance music these days, its overwhelming ability to evoke a sense of pride, dignity, self respect, love for one another cannot be overlooked.

[Leslie]

Do we think that many program directors of these big corporations (Emmis, Clear Channel, etc) have any exposure to house outside of just knowing it exists? I would love to know what the "industry standard" is for music to get on the air from a program director for one of these big corporations.

[TAD]

Originally posted by 1343:
If I were making Dance Music it would be about the MAN & COPNSPIRACIES.

But on the real side it isnt an attempt to keep dance music down, its just that Sex and Violence make money. Look at the Porn Industry and Hollywood. That shit sells and HIP HOP is studded with both. Money makes money when put in the right place and for the people in the board room..this hip hop is like a guyser. The world is Captivated with the Black man promoting this lethal lifestyle while taking every other moment to degrade the female. ITS SO COOL!! but what i'm saying is that's what we see on the outside, the money making aspect. i believe there's a behind closed doors policy that exists. as ridiculous & as conspiritorial as it sounds, i believe it's real.

i know danny gardner probably has more insight on this than i, but i've read that more money is allocated to violent films, despite the fact that family oriented epics generate more revenue. so if money was in fact the motivator, this verifiable fact would not be true.

[Cheddar]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 1343:
If I were making Dance Music it would be about the MAN & COPNSPIRACIES.

But on the real side it isnt an attempt to keep dance music down, its just that Sex and Violence make money. Look at the Porn Industry and Hollywood. That shit sells and HIP HOP is studded with both. Money makes money when put in the right place and for the people in the board room..this hip hop is like a guyser. The world is Captivated with the Black man promoting this lethal lifestyle while taking every other moment to degrade the female. ITS SO COOL!! but what i'm saying is that's what we see on the outside, the money making aspect. i believe there's a behind closed doors policy that exists. as ridiculous & as conspiritorial as it sounds, i believe it's real.

i know danny gardner probably has more insight on this than i, but i've read that more money is allocated to violent films, despite the fact that family oriented epics generate more revenue. so if money was in fact the motivator, this verifiable fact would not be true. </font>[/QUOTE]Hey one could indeed make a good argument that they wanna keep people DUMB as hell and I would agree as well (this dumb as hell thing has some correlation to intelligence of the consumer public though!).

[Brut by Faberge]

whenever shit gets too "popular" (ie, commercialized and exsanguinated on a K-Mart shelf near you) it tends to lose steam. Maybe 'red black and green' would have retained its punch if huey had been selling those wrist bands instead of rich white guys. i think hip-hop right now will be different and it won't lose steam because it holds more financial interest in itself, as opposed to being hijacked and diluted entirely by those outside of the culture. i could care less about the majority of these stankass rappers personally, but it is fascinating watching how these guys capitalize on things.

[TAC]

Originally posted by Dolemite73:
Once the big corporations(Clear Channel, Cumulus, etc.) bought up most of the radio stations nationwide, it truly limited what one can hear on the radio.This is science right here. This is the underlying problem. Friend of mine sold his radio stattion because he saw the writing on the wall; in that, he was not going to be able to compete in the upcoming market.

Peace
TAC

[TAD]

Originally posted by Leslie:
Do we think that many program directors of these big corporations (Emmis, Clear Channel, etc) have any exposure to house outside of just knowing it exists? I would love to know what the "industry standard" is for music to get on the air from a program director for one of these big corporations. good question, i wonder about this myself, althought i'd be inclined to believe these people would be open minded on their own terms/turf.

i suppose one industry standard would be major label recognition. if you're not on one of the big 5, you can clear-ly forget it.

[TAD]

Originally posted by TAC:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dolemite73:
Once the big corporations(Clear Channel, Cumulus, etc.) bought up most of the radio stations nationwide, it truly limited what one can hear on the radio.This is science right here. This is the underlying problem. Friend of mine sold his radio stattion because he saw the writing on the wall; in that, he was not going to be able to compete in the upcoming market.

Peace
TAC </font>[/QUOTE]you mean an over-lying problem. i'm saying we don' know the underlying problem. for those who have all the money, it's more than the money. they've quenched their thirst for unlimited acquisitions, they seek that which will give them ultimate control & power. and it isn't money, cause they already got it.

[DaveR]

Here we go again, down the path of blaming the big corporations.

Organizations (especially the big bad corporations) spend millions doing consumer research to position and deliver products, services and offerings that YOU tell or show them you want.

These big companies aren't slamming hip hop over the airwaves b/c they have power, it's b/c the consumers either want it, already support it, or consume it b/c they don't know where else to go.

[TAD]

Originally posted by DaveR:
Here we go again, down the path of blaming the big corporations.

Organizations (especially the big bad corporations) spend millions doing consumer research to position and deliver products, services and offerings that YOU tell or show them you want.

These big companies aren't slamming hip hop over the airwaves b/c they have power, it's b/c the consumers either want it, already support it, or consume it b/c they don't know where else to go. this is an example of the confusion of cause & effect.

[DaveR]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
this is an example of the confusion of cause & effect. Can you expand on your comment above please ?

DR

[Martin Red]

interesting cosmic

Uncle Sam may have realised recently that bling bling cable tie ya arms in da car boot bang bang ho is less damaging to America than hippy rave culture.

I think the illegal "rave" party thing here in the UK scared the goverment, I think they prefered it with a mob of football hooligans looting the city centres earlier in the 80's.

[ November 13, 2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: Martin Red ]

[D J 1 3 8]

With all due respect, this is another conspiracy theory that I believe has no basis in reality. NO, I do not believe for one second that radio stations and corprorations are not pushing house music becuz they fear it's power to unite the races.

Dave R's post speaks the truth, IMO.

[DaveR]

I think we have so many practical and passionate issues here that are unfairly blended together.

If we talk about MUSIC as a product, then the discussion is about revenue generation through sales. Of course sales are driven mostly (or in party by) by radio airplay, the MTVs of the world, advertisting, promotions, PR, word of mouth, etc.

If we talk about RADIO STATIONS as offerors (of music product), then station’s major source of revenue is via advertising dollars. *** You legacy radio industry people correct me if I’m wrong please - payola is a fraction of a percentage (if even reported as revenue).

If we talk about the major corporate radio stations above, and say they are simply playing hip hop (or non-dance music) as a conspiracy – that is flat wrong. These stations are implementing a proven model of success (proven market share, which sets advertising rates), and not because there is a conspiracy to slam a particular style of music down our throats.

If the masses wanted and supported Dance music, and the market share was present, that is what major radio stations would be playing.

Radio stations are very customer centric (they play what the majority of us want to hear / support) – try not to allow your passion to convince you otherwise.

[beaniboy67]

Dance music is ussually in the top ten of the Uk charts every single week in life.

the problem is its not the type we listen too.

trance/hardhouse/banging house/cheesy poppy house or whatever else you want to call it, is getting huge sales and people are making a fortune.i have some theories but you all might think they are rubbish but i will say what comes off the top of my head.

from a uk perspective

1989 - 1994 - the charts

hardly any trance/hardhouse/cheese that was sellable to the mainstream.

Good marketing in the late 80s early 90s sold thousands of copies of the stuff we like(h/m anthem,d-pandy ect ect) to mainstream britain and loved up clubbers.Plus the new fad of house music made many people sit up and take notice and want to be a part of it.Therefore a lot of young people here in the uk bought(or stole) good house from their local store cos it was there to buy(or steal lol).

years trundled on and the main guys at the time oakenfold,sasha ,digweed started championing a lot of crap music and pete tongsessential selection started playing it on air.thru time this crap is all over the charts and every young kid wants to be a trance dj instead of a deep house dj. mad1.gif

all the money goes to crappy trance,no money goes to good stuff and most bigger labels in the uk market the stuff so that its big bizzness and throw the good music away cos they can make more of the trancey shiet.

ive seen it happen right in front of my very eyes,The labels drop good indie rock guitar bands for boy bands and the good house music for crap trancy house music.

thats one of my theories on it. smile.gif

plus the age difference theory-compared to when i was 16 and nowadays.

nowadays younger people go out dancing a lot and every club plays trance so they all wanna buy and play the trancey gear.

when i was young everyone was into house or the manchester scene so thats what we all bought and were into.

quite simple but only a theory.

[AD]

House sucks. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/smokin.gif

[Moksha]

Americans don't like house. There is no ammount of marketing dollars that will change that. The people on the trance msg board are probably saying the same thing ("why don't we get chart hits and mega bucks?") House—like Polka, IDM, Classical, etc.— is underground for a reason: Most normal, mainstream people don't give a shit about it and never will.

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Albert Diaz:
House sucks. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/smokin.gif graemlins/kos.gif graemlins/alc.gif

[Nege]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Leslie:
Do we think that many program directors of these big corporations (Emmis, Clear Channel, etc) have any exposure to house outside of just knowing it exists? I would love to know what the "industry standard" is for music to get on the air from a program director for one of these big corporations. good question, i wonder about this myself, althought i'd be inclined to believe these people would be open minded on their own terms/turf.

i suppose one industry standard would be major label recognition. if you're not on one of the big 5, you can clear-ly forget it. </font>[/QUOTE]When we had a dance music station 10 years ago there was no problem to get your music played on the air,especially if it was Canadian content.
now the first thing they ask you is "Is there a video for this release?"
nowadays ,
no video , no airplay
canandian content or not.

[ November 13, 2003, 06:44 PM: Message edited by: Nege ]

[simon b]

Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
Americans don't like house. There is no ammount of marketing dollars that will change that. The people on the trance msg board are probably saying the same thing ("why don't we get chart hits and mega bucks?") House—like Polka, IDM, Classical, etc.— is underground for a reason: Most normal, mainstream people don't give a shit about it and never will. Exactly. And being in the media you must know that there's a good number of house artist that want to keep it that way. Do you know how many times I've tried to put certain people on the cover of the weekly I work for but got zero cooperation from them?

Also do you remember when Vibe had Bobbito play the tracks for Russell Simmons and he played Todd Terry's "Weekend?" Russell said he didn't like that kind of music because it didn't have enough marketable "personalities."

[TAD]

we're all familiar with this

Senator Joseph Biden, a Democrat and possible presidential candidate, attached the RAVE act to the Amber Alert bill that the President signed last month. The RAVE act would make anyone hosting a party where drug use takes place a criminal. This would shut down virtually all big dance clubs since the owners won't be willing to take that responsibility.
The great irony is that many have lamented the death of the underground dance culture, and the RAVE act would likely revive it. During the 90's the parties were underground and didn't serve alcohol. As the dance culture has become more mainstream the parties are now done at legitimate clubs with liquor licenses. At any given club there are less people taking Ecstasy, and more people drinking. There are even corporate sponsors; DJ Tiesto's latest tour was sponsored by Sony. The RAVE act would force all of this back underground leading to a new renaissance in dance culture, probably something Senator Biden doesn't want.
It's frustrating to see the Senator's complete lack of understanding of the issue. It's the same as safe sex. Young people are going to have sex, just like they're going to take Ecstasy. It should be our responsibility as a society to help them do it safely and prevent as many deaths as possible.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The War on Drugs has often been used to suppress music and lifestyles disliked by the political establishment.
http://www.drugpolicy.org/communities/raveact/


this is what i'm talking about. this is a fvcking conspiracy. what the hell else is it. this has nothing to do with naive program directors or radio stations. (clear channel is NOT a radio station) they know as much as we do. but we all know that free speech, life liberty & the pursuit of happiness is now bullshit. do people honestly believe the rave act is because of drug use? this is a smokescreen & any type of speculation on this issue is just that. speculation. keep the masses stupid. feed them with just enough so that they feel in control but angry. make them rebel so that you can seize control because chaos leads to the breakdown of society.

is dance music dead? hell no. as someone pointed out in another thread, the underground will always be the center of creative output for this music. it will never die just pushed deeper away from the minds & hearts of people that have no outlet for this music.

Q: how many legal after hours parties are currently being held in chicago?

A: NONE!!

and this has been in effect BEFORE the rave act was passed.

same thing in florida.

i'm rambling but why is it that people only deal with what they are comfortable with & what they don't know, they somehow refuse to open their minds to an understanding that maybe, there is some truth to this. afraid of the comfort zone being tipped over even though we know know there is no fvcking comfort zone, that it's just an illusion & that anything could happen at any time anywhere & we wouldn't know what hit us , where it came from & why.

"There are more instances of the abridgement of the freedom of the people by the gradual and silent encroachment of those in power, than by violent and sudden usurpation." James Madison

[Moksha]

Originally posted by simon b:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
Americans don't like house. There is no ammount of marketing dollars that will change that. The people on the trance msg board are probably saying the same thing ("why don't we get chart hits and mega bucks?") House—like Polka, IDM, Classical, etc.— is underground for a reason: Most normal, mainstream people don't give a shit about it and never will. Exactly. And being in the media you must know that there's a good number of house artist that want to keep it that way. Do you know how many times I've tried to put certain people on the cover of the weekly I work for but got zero cooperation from them?

Also do you remember when Vibe had Bobbito play the tracks for Russell Simmons and he played Todd Terry's "Weekend?" Russell said he didn't like that kind of music because it didn't have enough marketable "personalities." </font>[/QUOTE]Right.

Regardless of what kind of marketing is used, this genre just ain't cut out for pop culture. And, honestly, I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing. Lil Ray has made some very articulate posts about his. . .and I think he was right.

[Ace Mungin]

it's all about the young!
the young rule the world,house is not seen as the
sound of the young, if it was house would be all
over the air wave.

[Moksha]

Originally posted by Ace Mungin:
it's all about the young!
the young rule the world,house is not seen as the
sound of the young, if it was house would be all
over the air wave. BINGO!

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by Ace Mungin:
it's all about the young!
the young rule the world,house is not seen as the
sound of the young, if it was house would be all
over the air wave. Not to diminish your statement, but people have said this before on here, in that the missing "youthful" element to house is (what?) the EDGE...the sexual, gritty, frightening, weird, cock-in-your-ear facet that hip-hop got, and house don't got.

[DJ CHRIS PURTELL]

Not to diminish your statement, but people have said this before on here, in that the missing "youthful" element to house is (what?) the EDGE...the sexual, gritty, frightening, weird, cock-in-your-ear facet that hip-hop got, and house don't got.
yea that sounds about right

[julian_kelly]

Greetings Cosmic Twin!

Sorry for not elaborating on why I posted the "Maybe we can learn something from hip hop" thread. I havent expanded on it because I have been extremely busy this past week. I will elaborate within the next few days.

My basic reason for posting that thread was because I believe that folk from the house community can benefit from modeling the 'hip hop entrepreneurial spirit.' Tons of cats in hip hop are opening busineses (that relate or dont relate to hip hop) and investing back into the culture.

In short, Enyce has 100 mill in the coffers...they can do tons of good for the culture...because of the money they have access to they can open 10 club shelters, some properly financed record labels, get into publishing, maybe distribution and flirt with owning a record station if they choose...mainly because they have access to capital. My intenet in that post was to show the options they now have available because they have the entrepreunerial spirit.

Actually I really havent developed a personal opinion on whether house should stay underground or go commercial. I'm neutral in the debate; but I do believe that house can be better, nevertheless Im not quite sure what 'better' is yet. I think house can grow a whooooole lot before it is even considered commercial. Many view 1 million records sold as 'commercial' and house only sells around 1,500 per sources on this board. On that note you can still sell 50,000 (a great improvement from 1,000) and still be 'underground' graemlins/rofl.gif

I apologize for digressing with my comments from the questions you asked. I'll expand my thoughts some and comment on your questions when I get more time.

peace
julian kelly


Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
.....i've been reading all the different threads about the death of house, the profitability of "commercial" hip hop due to business saavy and more recently julian kelly's thread "maybe we can learn somethin from hip hop" (which actually inspired me to write this) & what i'm failing to see is a real indepth search into the mechanisms of the corporate machine that has allowed "commercial" hip hop & r&b to flourish & more importantly WHY? ....

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by ultra:
Just as Dolemite stated, until the big guys decide that it's time for the masses to hear 'deep house', it won't happen. Just as many who have made it in the industry (hip-hop or other), it only takes ONE person or entity to hear your stuff (or see your stuff in my case) for you to make it into the bigtime. This is Just Blaze's story. When we used to hang in the early 90's, he was an apprentice at a recording studio. One day, Jay-Z was in the studio and overheard one of his tracks and instantly signed him as a Roc-a-Fella producer. Now you can't watch a video or hear a song he hasn't produced or stars in.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dolemite73:
Once the big corporations(Clear Channel, Cumulus, etc.) bought up most of the radio stations nationwide, it truly limited what one can hear on the radio. Its a modern day payola system in a way. You gotta pay to get your shit played. Since we as a house community are small, we cant get our stuff exposed liked commercial hip-hop can. And I dont see a way for that to change. </font>[/QUOTE]Good point. The chain of command is powerful. Kanye West got popular as a producer almost the same way Just Blaze did.