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Friday

12-14-2003, 10:53 PM

Singer Lauryn Hill Blasts Church at Vatican Concert

Sun Dec 14, 8:29 AM ET

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By Philip Pullella

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - American singer Lauryn Hill, from a stage used by the Pope, shocked Catholic officials at a concert by telling them to "repent" and alluding to sexual abuse of children by U.S. priests.

The broadside came during the recording Saturday night of a Christmas concert attended by top Vatican (news - web sites) cardinals, bishops and many elite of Italian society, witnesses said.

Hill made her comments when taking the microphone to sing at the concert, held in the same huge hall and stage Pope JohnPaul (news - web sites) uses for his weekly general audiences and other events. The Pope was not present.

"I did not come here to celebrate the birth of Christ with you but to ask you why you are not in mourning for his death inside this place," she said according to a transcript of her statement run by the Rome newspaper La Repubblica.

A spokesman for Prime Time Productions, the concert's organizers, said the newspaper's quotes were accurate.

"God has been a witness to the corruption of his leadership, of the exploitation and abuses ... by the clergy," she said.

This was an apparent reference to the scandal in the United States last year over the sexual abuse of children by priests.

Hill told the crowd to seek blessings "from God not men" and said she did "not believe in representatives of God on earth."

A few feet away in the front row sat five cardinals, including Edmund Szoka, American governor of Vatican City.

Hill, 28, did not sing the song listed on the program but instead sang a song about social injustice.

Organizers said Hill's outburst and performance would most probably be cut from the show when it is aired on Christmas Eve.

Hill shot to fame in the mid-1990s with band The Fugees, whose album "The Score" sold 17 million copies, to become one of the biggest hip-hop chart successes of all time.

She went on to win five Grammy awards for her debut solo album, "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill." She has a son and daughter by Rohan Marley, the son of Reggae legend Bob Marley.

link (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=638&ncid=762&e=1&u=/nm/20031214/en_nm/pope_protest_dc)

JMNYC

12-14-2003, 11:06 PM

graemlins/OLA.gif

she even one-upped Sinead O'Connor with this one ...

naturalisque

12-14-2003, 11:14 PM

oh wow.
mad respect goes to da ms. hill for sure.
amen.

-Kumi

i.be.me

12-14-2003, 11:31 PM

:eek:

go Lauren! a bit anti-catholic... but, that was pretty bold and brave.

liL Ray

12-14-2003, 11:56 PM

I saw this article....I don't know if this was the place to do this...I'm by far not a bible thumping catholic and really don't support them, but there is something to be said about tact.

However, this won't hurt her career...probably help it.

Querck

12-15-2003, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by liL Ray:
I saw this article....I don't know if this was the place to do this...I'm by far not a bible thumping catholic and really don't support them, but there is something to be said about tact.

However, this won't hurt her career...probably help it. It WAS the place to do it! Awesome--those people don't deserve any respect. Catholic church is a joke and needs to be exposed.

chewie

12-15-2003, 04:21 AM

i don't get some people
i'm not religious, but i do respect those that are
i think that if you have a valid comment to make then make it in a proper forum. many people have issues with islam, but i wouldn't think that they would be right to go mecca and shout about - it's about respect.

to the people (i guess i'm talking about dannyboy) saying that the catholic church is 'a joke'
1. do you know what you're talking about? - doubt it
2. how can disrespecting one of the largest religions in the world be 'awesome'?
3. if you've got something to expose about the church as a whole rather than about the unacceptable minority - spill it

every organisation has it's undesirable elements, but if a social worker abuses a child i wouldn't say that you should shut down all social services - just take action against the guilty parties

12-15-2003, 05:36 AM

graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[ December 15, 2003, 09:22 AM: Message edited by: Albert Diaz ]

liL Ray

12-15-2003, 06:02 AM

GrantB

12-15-2003, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
i don't get some people
i'm not religious, but i do respect those that are
i think that if you have a valid comment to make then make it in a proper forum. many people have issues with islam, but i wouldn't think that they would be right to go mecca and shout about - it's about respect.

to the people (i guess i'm talking about dannyboy) saying that the catholic church is 'a joke'
1. do you know what you're talking about? - doubt it
2. how can disrespecting one of the largest religions in the world be 'awesome'?
3. if you've got something to expose about the church as a whole rather than about the unacceptable minority - spill it

every organisation has it's undesirable elements, but if a social worker abuses a child i wouldn't say that you should shut down all social services - just take action against the guilty parties Ok. There is a big difference between a religion (Christianity, Islam) and a theo-political establishment (the Catholic Church, the Taliban).

Laurens rant was against the Catholic Church, who appear at this point to have harbored and protected child molesters on a criminally organized scale. IIRC, Bishops (!) have been complicit in concealing this abhorrent behavior from the flock and the public at large.

P.S. Something to expose about the Catholic Church? Are you kidding? The Crusades, The Inquisition(s), The Dark Ages... we have coined words to describe the things this establishment is guilty of. They need no exposing (in fact, keep it in your holy robes if you please!).

chewie

12-15-2003, 07:59 AM

i don't see the point in comparing the taliban to the catholic church - it's ridiculous. may the taliban and the IRA would be a better comparison. and to suggest that the catholism is not a religion? you'd better tell the many millions of followers across the world that they've made a mistake.

i'll admit i don't know a lot about the dark ages or the crusades or any of that, but i'm sure that it's particularly relevant to the current thread or the current day

another thing i would say is that a church is more about the faithful than the leadership, and although are elements in most religions (and i guess most walks of life) who abuse their positions I for one would rather judge individuals rather than paint everybody with the same brush. just because there is that digusting group who align themselves with the catholic church, doesn't mean that what they do should is anything to do with the church and all it's followers

without question all those guilty of child (or other) offences should be punished, as should those who seek to get in the way of justice

Friday

12-15-2003, 08:03 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
just because there is that digusting group who align themselves with the catholic church, doesn't mean that what they do should is anything to do with the church and all it's followersSomething very interesting about the last 6 words in this paragraph. ;)

liL Ray

12-15-2003, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by gf:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
just because there is that digusting group who align themselves with the catholic church, doesn't mean that what they do should is anything to do with the church and all it's followersSomething very interesting about the last 6 words in this paragraph. ;) [/QUOTE]'splain please, I don't get it.... :( scratching head..

TAD

12-15-2003, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
if you've got something to expose about the church as a whole rather than about the unacceptable minority - spill itask & ye shall receive.

"Constantine, who was made its head, was not himself at that time a Christian. He had agreed to become one. But as the erring or irregular churches which had gone with him into this organization had come to adopt the error of Baptismal regeneration, a serious question arose in the mind of Constantine, "If I am saved from my sins by baptism, what is to become of my sins which I may commit after I am baptized?"* He raised a question which has puzzled the world in all succeeding generations. Can baptism wash away yet uncommitted sins? Or, are the sins committed prior to baptism washed away by one method (that is, baptism), and the sins committed subsequent to baptism washed away by another method?

20. Not being able to settle satisfactorily the many questions thus arising, Constantine finally decided to unite with the Christians, but to postpone his baptism until just preceding his death, so that all his sins might thus be washed away at one time. This course he followed, and hence was not baptized until just preceding his death.

*constantine murdered several family members including his son & wife.

The Trail Of Blood (http://users.aol.com/libcfl/trail.htm)

12-15-2003, 08:12 AM

Chewie indeed,

No judgement will you find on my part toward Catholism....but actions of people you will, even my own.

She shoulda said it, but, unlike me, be more specific/exact....(i.e., all you baddy-suckas doing it to kids or other priests and bishops are wrong....)

Brut by Faberge

12-15-2003, 08:21 AM

Originally posted by Cosmic T:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
if you've got something to expose about the church as a whole rather than about the unacceptable minority - spill itask & ye shall receive.

"Constantine, who was made its head, was not himself at that time a Christian. He had agreed to become one. But as the erring or irregular churches which had gone with him into this organization had come to adopt the error of Baptismal regeneration, a serious question arose in the mind of Constantine, "If I am saved from my sins by baptism, what is to become of my sins which I may commit after I am baptized?"* He raised a question which has puzzled the world in all succeeding generations. Can baptism wash away yet uncommitted sins? Or, are the sins committed prior to baptism washed away by one method (that is, baptism), and the sins committed subsequent to baptism washed away by another method?

20. Not being able to settle satisfactorily the many questions thus arising, Constantine finally decided to unite with the Christians, but to postpone his baptism until just preceding his death, so that all his sins might thus be washed away at one time. This course he followed, and hence was not baptized until just preceding his death.

*constantine murdered several family members including his son & wife.

The Trail Of Blood (http://users.aol.com/libcfl/trail.htm) [/QUOTE]Correction: This has little to do with the "Roman Catholic" church as we know it, as at the time of Constantine's rule, there were no divisions with the church (Roman Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox/Methodist/Lutheran). This was when all "christianity" was just that "Christianity."

Plus, you are still speaking to only ONE individual in the ranks of many. If you are taking the concept of baptism/sacraments of initiation to task, you have a big fish to fry. Start with Christ, and or John the Baptist.

i.be.me

12-15-2003, 08:25 AM

i don't think people should be attacked for their religious beliefs... there are so many different faiths/practices... it is ignorant and arrogant to think one or lack of one is better than another. if you disagree with a practice of a religion - don't practice it! publiclly humiliating people just because they have particular beliefs is not cool.

the abuse of children is not part of the catholic religion and it is a horrible crime and should be addressed/dealt with. that is the part of what Lauryn did that I agree with.

TAD

12-15-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
another thing i would say is that a church is more about the faithful than the leadership, and although are elements in most religions (and i guess most walks of life) who abuse their positions I for one would rather judge individuals rather than paint everybody with the same brush. just because there is that digusting group who align themselves with the catholic church, doesn't mean that what they do should is anything to do with the church and all it's followersthis is the argument all devout followers use. the problem with this is that those indiviuduals are leaders in a religious system that is not only flawed at the root, but is soaked in the blood of hundreds of thousand of innocents.

if the system of salvation or spriritual cultivation known as christianity was a perfect system, (because god is perfect so natuarally anything having to do with god & her wisdom must be perfect for it to function properly) the church as we know it today would not exist. if as you say the few corrupt, well then the whole by default is also corrupt. the basis of christian thought has very little to do with true salvation since the key to enlightment has always been the antithesis of what the church has promulgated.

Brut by Faberge

12-15-2003, 08:34 AM

Originally posted by i.be.me:
i don't think people should be attacked for their religious beliefs... there are so many different faiths/practices... it is ignorant and arrogant to think one or lack of one is better than another. if you disagree with a practice of a religion - don't practice it! publiclly humiliating people just because they have particular beliefs is not cool.

the abuse of children is not part of the catholic religion and it is a horrible crime and should be addressed/dealt with. that is the part of what Lauryn did that I agree with. well said, i.be...granted I was raised Roman Catholic, and the church is a great part of my family tradition, so I may be a bit biased. But I know one would be hard pressed to find a practicing or even lapsed Catholic who takes great joy in priests molesting children. I do not believe that the "Liturgy of Feeling on Kids" shall be destined to become an integral part of Mass. I agree with Lauren's stance against the evils that have been done, but that was disrespectful to the n'th.

TAD

12-15-2003, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by THX-1138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cosmic T:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
if you've got something to expose about the church as a whole rather than about the unacceptable minority - spill itask & ye shall receive.

"Constantine, who was made its head, was not himself at that time a Christian. He had agreed to become one. But as the erring or irregular churches which had gone with him into this organization had come to adopt the error of Baptismal regeneration, a serious question arose in the mind of Constantine, "If I am saved from my sins by baptism, what is to become of my sins which I may commit after I am baptized?"* He raised a question which has puzzled the world in all succeeding generations. Can baptism wash away yet uncommitted sins? Or, are the sins committed prior to baptism washed away by one method (that is, baptism), and the sins committed subsequent to baptism washed away by another method?

20. Not being able to settle satisfactorily the many questions thus arising, Constantine finally decided to unite with the Christians, but to postpone his baptism until just preceding his death, so that all his sins might thus be washed away at one time. This course he followed, and hence was not baptized until just preceding his death.

*constantine murdered several family members including his son & wife.

The Trail Of Blood (http://users.aol.com/libcfl/trail.htm) [/QUOTE]Correction: This has little to do with the "Roman Catholic" church as we know it, as at the time of Constantine's rule, there were no divisions with the church (Roman Catholic/Protestant/Eastern Orthodox/Methodist/Lutheran). This was when all "christianity" was just that "Christianity."

Plus, you are still speaking to only ONE individual in the ranks of many. If you are taking the concept of baptism/sacraments of initiation to task, you have a big fish to fry. Start with Christ, and or John the Baptist. [/QUOTE]i used one quote from a booklet to illustrate a point you missed. i doubt you read the link since it is somewhat lengthy.

and no i wasn't focusing on the concept of baptism.

Brut by Faberge

12-15-2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by Cosmic T:
this is the argument all devout followers use. the problem with this is that those indiviuduals are leaders in a religious system that is not only flawed at the root, but is soaked in the blood of hundreds of thousand of innocents.

if the system of salvation or spriritual cultivation known as christianity was a perfect system, (because god is perfect so natuarally anything having to do with god & her wisdom must be perfect for it to function properly) the church as we know it today would not exist. if as you say the few corrupt, well then the whole by default is also corrupt. the basis of christian thought has very little to do with true salvation since the key to enlightment has always been the antithesis of what the church has promulgated. interesting...so i guess by this logic, Christ was wrong to continue to practice Judaism. He stood up against the currupt Pharisees, but continued still to attend temple worship, and indeed, taking part in the seder meal was one of his very final acts. In other words, though he disagreed with the core actions of the faith's leadership, he remained a devout Jew till his dying breath. Again, interesting.

chewie

12-15-2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Cosmic T:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
another thing i would say is that a church is more about the faithful than the leadership, and although are elements in most religions (and i guess most walks of life) who abuse their positions I for one would rather judge individuals rather than paint everybody with the same brush. just because there is that digusting group who align themselves with the catholic church, doesn't mean that what they do should is anything to do with the church and all it's followers

this is the argument all devout followers use. the problem with this is that those indiviuduals are leaders in a religious system that is not only flawed at the root, but is soaked in the blood of hundreds of thousand of innocents.

if the system of salvation or spriritual cultivation known as christianity was a perfect system, (because god is perfect so natuarally anything having to do with god & her wisdom must be perfect for it to function properly) the church as we know it today would not exist. if as you say the few corrupt, well then the whole by default is also corrupt. the basis of christian thought has very little to do with true salvation since the key to enlightment has always been the antithesis of what the church has promulgated. [/QUOTE]it's a bit over the top isn't it? blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents?

i'm not a follower, let alone a devote one, but, if i was i guess i would follow god and my beliefs rather than the leaders. as for the perfect system bit, dunno what you're on about

what i said is judge individuals as individuals and i think that if you don't agree with that i think that's what they call prejudice

oh and another thing, i notice that the 'target' has got a bit wider - it now seems that it's all of christianity

[ December 15, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: chewie ]

Friday

12-15-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by liL Ray:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gf:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
just because there is that digusting group who align themselves with the catholic church, doesn't mean that what they do should is anything to do with the church and all it's followersSomething very interesting about the last 6 words in this paragraph. ;) [/QUOTE]'splain please, I don't get it.... :( scratching head.. [/QUOTE]When one must follow, we interpret them as sheep, As sheep, we interpret them as non-thinkers, hence followers. Beliefs....very dangerous, for one person to walk in and cast shadows on the most holiest & highest, where is their god now?

We as a society have allowed the pretense of "the holy man" and have allowed this to happen because of our belief. We have given power to those that will lead us....into temptation? perhaps. smile.gif

TAD

12-15-2003, 08:57 AM

Originally posted by THX-1138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cosmic T:
this is the argument all devout followers use. the problem with this is that those indiviuduals are leaders in a religious system that is not only flawed at the root, but is soaked in the blood of hundreds of thousand of innocents.

if the system of salvation or spriritual cultivation known as christianity was a perfect system, (because god is perfect so natuarally anything having to do with god & her wisdom must be perfect for it to function properly) the church as we know it today would not exist. if as you say the few corrupt, well then the whole by default is also corrupt. the basis of christian thought has very little to do with true salvation since the key to enlightment has always been the antithesis of what the church has promulgated. interesting...so i guess by this logic, Christ was wrong to continue to practice Judaism. He stood up against the currupt Pharisees, but continued still to attend temple worship, and indeed, taking part in the seder meal was one of his very final acts. In other words, though he disagreed with the core actions of the faith's leadership, he remained a devout Jew till his dying breath. Again, interesting. [/QUOTE]IF jesus THE CHRIST existed, since there are no records outside the bible (josephus is the only writer to mention jesus in testimonuim flavianum, merely a passing reference and considered to be an interpolation) he practiced the faith of the essenes, a sect that was more in tune to the egyptian pagan religion, albeit flawed but truer to the essence of the holy spirit.

again let it be made clear that proof of jesus existence is one of the biggest conundrums in christianity.

TAD

12-15-2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cosmic T:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
another thing i would say is that a church is more about the faithful than the leadership, and although are elements in most religions (and i guess most walks of life) who abuse their positions I for one would rather judge individuals rather than paint everybody with the same brush. just because there is that digusting group who align themselves with the catholic church, doesn't mean that what they do should is anything to do with the church and all it's followers

this is the argument all devout followers use. the problem with this is that those indiviuduals are leaders in a religious system that is not only flawed at the root, but is soaked in the blood of hundreds of thousand of innocents.

if the system of salvation or spriritual cultivation known as christianity was a perfect system, (because god is perfect so natuarally anything having to do with god & her wisdom must be perfect for it to function properly) the church as we know it today would not exist. if as you say the few corrupt, well then the whole by default is also corrupt. the basis of christian thought has very little to do with true salvation since the key to enlightment has always been the antithesis of what the church has promulgated. [/QUOTE]it's a bit over the top isn't it? blood of hundreds of thousands of innocents?

i'm not a follower, let alone a devote one, but, if i was i guess i would follow god and my beliefs rather than the leaders. as for the perfect system bit, dunno what you're on about

what i said is judge individuals as individuals and i think that if you don't agree with that i think that's what they call prejudice

oh and another thing, i notice that the 'target' has got a bit wider - it now seems that it's all of christianity [/QUOTE]many christians have abandoned their faith because it did not fulfill them. their spirit called for something deeper, a search that would take many to places christianity has repudiated for centuries.

if you think a few hundred people slaughtered will suffice as a figure, then you obviously missed one of the most recent christian atrocities, that of the middle passage.

also the body count of the inquisition could fill 10 football stadiums.

chewie

12-15-2003, 09:23 AM

QUOTE]many christians have abandoned their faith because it did not fulfill them. their spirit called for something deeper, a search that would take many to places christianity has repudiated for centuries.

if you think a few hundred people slaughtered will suffice as a figure, then you obviously missed one of the most recent christian atrocities, that of the middle passage.

also the body count of the inquisition could fill 10 football stadiums. [/QB][/QUOTE]

as i said i'm not a religious type of guy and i don't know much about the inquisition or whatever.

i dunno waht middle passage you're referring to and i dunno who killed how many when and in who's name

what i am interested in (genuinely) is where the disillusioned ex-christians find something deeper, where does the search take them?

12-15-2003, 09:24 AM

I see lost souls going into purgatory... graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

12-15-2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
where does the search take them? Nowhere. Plain and simple.

Insert pseudonym here

12-15-2003, 09:25 AM

That was a very brave move. Often time we don't speak from the heart, because a lot of people (sometimes myself included) just don't like to hear the truth.

Whether it was tactful or tactless, I won't debate it... but I champion anyone that can speak directly from the heart and use their influence to try and educate or appeal to the masses.

Kudos.

Huey P. Freeman

12-15-2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by gf:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by liL Ray:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gf:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
just because there is that digusting group who align themselves with the catholic church, doesn't mean that what they do should is anything to do with the church and all it's followersSomething very interesting about the last 6 words in this paragraph. ;) [/QUOTE]'splain please, I don't get it.... :( scratching head.. [/QUOTE]When one must follow, we interpret them as sheep, As sheep, we interpret them as non-thinkers, hence followers. Beliefs....very dangerous, for one person to walk in and cast shadows on the most holiest & highest, where is their god now?

We as a society have allowed the pretense of "the holy man" and have allowed this to happen because of our belief. We have given power to those that will lead us....into temptation? perhaps. smile.gif [/QUOTE]hail.gif

O'love

12-15-2003, 09:35 AM

i wonder if she asked to get paid for her "performance" in the vatican....

to me this reeks like some kind of publicity-stunt...if you don't like the catholic church, don't go to the vatican and perform there...it's simple....

furthermore: i believe the biggest problems with catholic officials abusing other people are in the US itself, so why not stand up in the US instead of flying over to the vatican, undoubtly on their expenses, and start complaining there?

Olaf

MYOR

12-15-2003, 09:38 AM

The fact of the matter is that the church and the officials have known of all the abuse and have covered it up...

Not that many people are willing to stand up to the church b/c they know its a very powerful institution... I'm very happy she did this..

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

12-15-2003, 10:13 AM

SHE DID RIGHT!!!!!!!! FEAR NO MAN. NO MAN ON THIS EARTH CAN GET US INTO HEAVEN FASTER THAN SELF! SO WHAT SHE DID IT TO AN OVER-GLORIFIED STAGE OF SUPPOSED RIGHTEOUSNESS. WHEN IN FACT CORRUPTION HAS SPILLED OVER INTO THE BLOOD OF THE INNOCENT AND MAKING MOST OF THEIR VICTIMS CHOOSE THE WRONG PATHS. GOD KNOWS AND SEES ALL AND MAKING THE WORLD SEE EVEN THE "VATICAN AND CATHOLISISM" (OR ANY OTHER RELIGION THAT EXPLOITS SIN AS A COMMODITY) ISN'T PERFECT. NOW THAT'S JUSTICE GO LAUREN! graemlins/OLA.gif

NO DOUBT, NO FEAR, NO INTIMIDATIONS OR BE DEFEATED BY THOSE THAT HATE YOU!

Okay I'm finished biggrinangel.gif

Friday

12-15-2003, 10:15 AM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
SHE DID RIGHT!!!!!!!! FEAR NO MAN. NO MAN ON THIS EARTH CAN GET US INTO HEAVEN FASTER THAN SELF! SO WHAT SHE DID IT TO AN OVER-GLORIFIED STAGE OF SUPPOSED RIGHTEOUSNESS. WHEN IN FACT CORRUPTION HAS SPILLED OVER INTO THE BLOOD OF THE INNOCENT AND MAKING MOST OF THEIR VICTIMS CHOOSE THE WRONG PATHS. GOD KNOWS AND SEES ALL AND MAKING THE WORLD SEE EVEN THE "VATICAN AND CATHOLISISM" (OR ANY OTHER RELIGION THAT EXPLOITS SIN AS A COMMODITY) ISN'T PERFECT. NOW THAT'S JUSTICE GO LAUREN! graemlins/OLA.gif

NO DOUBT, NO FEAR, NO INTIMIDATIONS OR BE DEFEATED BY THOSE THAT HATE YOU!

Okay I'm finished biggrinangel.gif I am so in awe of you DL!! graemlins/bighug.gif

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

12-15-2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by gf:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
SHE DID RIGHT!!!!!!!! FEAR NO MAN. NO MAN ON THIS EARTH CAN GET US INTO HEAVEN FASTER THAN SELF! SO WHAT SHE DID IT TO AN OVER-GLORIFIED STAGE OF SUPPOSED RIGHTEOUSNESS. WHEN IN FACT CORRUPTION HAS SPILLED OVER INTO THE BLOOD OF THE INNOCENT AND MAKING MOST OF THEIR VICTIMS CHOOSE THE WRONG PATHS. GOD KNOWS AND SEES ALL AND MAKING THE WORLD SEE EVEN THE "VATICAN AND CATHOLISISM" (OR ANY OTHER RELIGION THAT EXPLOITS SIN AS A COMMODITY) ISN'T PERFECT. NOW THAT'S JUSTICE GO LAUREN! graemlins/OLA.gif

NO DOUBT, NO FEAR, NO INTIMIDATIONS OR BE DEFEATED BY THOSE THAT HATE YOU!

Okay I'm finished biggrinangel.gif I am so in awe of you DL!! graemlins/bighug.gif [/QUOTE]thank you gf gurl graemlins/bighug.gif you not bad yourself. I like the things you have to say too. We have the same things in mind ;)

[ December 15, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

sr hadden

12-15-2003, 10:52 AM

[ December 15, 2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: sr hadden ]

sr hadden

12-15-2003, 10:53 AM

pissing on catholics is easy... I'd be impressed if she repeated it in Mekka and Jerusalem ...

peace

SPG

12-15-2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by liL Ray:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
i don't get some people
i'm not religious, but i do respect those that are
i think that if you have a valid comment to make then make it in a proper forum. many people have issues with islam, but i wouldn't think that they would be right to go mecca and shout about - it's about respect.

to the people (i guess i'm talking about dannyboy) saying that the catholic church is 'a joke'
1. do you know what you're talking about? - doubt it
2. how can disrespecting one of the largest religions in the world be 'awesome'?
3. if you've got something to expose about the church as a whole rather than about the unacceptable minority - spill it

every organisation has it's undesirable elements, but if a social worker abuses a child i wouldn't say that you should shut down all social services - just take action against the guilty parties Well said...thank you... [/QUOTE]Ditto!

SPG

SPG

12-15-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by O'love:

if you don't like the catholic church, don't go to the vatican and perform there...it's simple....

Olaf Exactly...keep your a** home.

SPG

assholes delight

12-15-2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by sr hadden:
pissing on catholics is easy... I'd be impressed if she repeated it in Mekka and Jerusalem ...

peace my sentiments exactly.
Catholisim is such great scapegoat in our day in age, a testimonial to the daily rag.
In the concept of freedom and in use as an adjective (liberal progressive), catholic can mean
broad minded or detached. Just another contridiction for the bible heads.

Brut by Faberge

12-15-2003, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by sr hadden:
pissing on catholics is easy... I'd be impressed if she repeated it in Mekka and Jerusalem ...

peace She would never. A brave woman indeed :rolleyes:

I'm sure the Pope will be greatly moved. Etiquitte 101: Regardless of how you feel, you don't accept an invitation to a person's home, and then tell them how to cook, clean, and pay the bills. She should have organized her own show here in the states and spoken out. Had media coverage and a ligit forum there. She has the star precense to pull it off. Now she's probably done more to alienate Catholics, who otherwise do sympathize with her POV.

assholes delight

12-15-2003, 11:16 AM

She should have made a beeline to San Remo too so she can condemm all the pretty people for being soooo shallow. :(

shanequa sanchez

12-15-2003, 01:17 PM

graemlins/jpshakehead.gif ... doesn't seem to me ms. hill insulted anyone's humanity or called them despicable names. and why all history lessons?
also some of us on this board are proponents of speaking from the heart and telling like it is... and anyway who gets to decide when is the appropriate time to say something...when the "Vatican" gives her permission? seems to me that's been the problem with all the silencing and "lack of permission to speak" in the Churhc hierarchy...
right on ms. hill!!!! graemlins/OLA.gif

shanequa sanchez

12-15-2003, 01:22 PM

oh yeah...her remarks were about the leadership...not the entire church...if people feel "alienated" then might it be because people don't want to publicly address the concerns and the actions of the powers that be of the church?
that has always been my issue with catholicism...
all the secrecy bound up with the idea of going to hell!! that'll scare anyone into silence!!!geez!!!!

Moksha

12-15-2003, 01:33 PM

Originally posted by chewie:

1. do you know what you're talking about? - doubt it
2. how can disrespecting one of the largest religions in the world be 'awesome'?
3. if you've got something to expose about the church as a whole rather than about the unacceptable minority - spill it
I do know about the Catholic Church and its terrible history. I could put up pages of offenses past and present, as could anyone who reads even the smallest amount of religious/philosphy writing. Convince me that it would be worth the time and effort, and I might do so.

I agree. . .L's outburst was awesome. . .though will be as inconsequential as Michael Moore's.

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 01:43 PM

Originally posted by Albert Diaz:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
where does the search take them? Nowhere. Plain and simple. [/QUOTE]It's cool, Al D - I'm certain you know this, but I have to scream on you a bit, man.

You're all "fire and brimstone" on this topic, but where does this religion you're defending come in on your activities, viewpoints and behaviors, hm?

Seems to me that you, as a vehement Catholic, may wish to re-form yourself as a better representative of the virtues of the religion rather than spread fear of "losing" one's "soul" etc., etc.

Fear retards honest discourse and personal freedom - two issues about which the Catholic Church has been bi-polar throughout its history. On the one hand, they have been there in support of many human rights initiatives - on the other, they have made choices that led to the interruption of the human rights of others.

Much like your recent meanderings on the DHP, hm?

[ December 15, 2003, 01:52 PM: Message edited by: Danny Gardner ]

rob brito

12-15-2003, 01:47 PM

Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
I do know about the Catholic Church and its terrible history. I could put up pages of offenses past and present, as could anyone who reads even the smallest amount of religious/philosphy writing.yes, the order of the church...the inbred corruption isn't up for discussion (i left at 12 years old in terms of faith of the clergy) but lauryn or any others speaking out for the most part aren't talking of that. rather we're talking of there being a separation between people/agendas and spiritual lives.

can that difference EVER be respected?

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 01:51 PM

Originally posted by rob brito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
I do know about the Catholic Church and its terrible history. I could put up pages of offenses past and present, as could anyone who reads even the smallest amount of religious/philosphy writing.yes, the order of the church...the inbred corruption isn't up for discussion (i left at 12 years old in terms of faith of the clergy) but lauryn or any others speaking out for the most part aren't talking of that. rather we're talking of there being a separation between people/agendas and spiritual lives.

can that difference EVER be respected? [/QUOTE]If it offered itself as one choice of many and presented its doctrine and ritual as an OPTION instead of THE ONLY PATH, then yes - maybe people could look at it objectively.

As long as it maintains itself as the final arbitor of the spiritual lives of human beings and the chief governor of the relationship between man and "God", then NO!

rob brito

12-15-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
On the one hand, they have been there in support of many human rights initiatives - on the other, they have made choices that led to the interruption of the human rights of others.

Much like your recent meanderings on the DHP, hm? aren't we all bi-polar to different degrees?

shouldn't we be heavy on the judgement with our own fluctuations?

it truly takes the greatest of courages to keep ones judgement locked onto oneself....

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by rob brito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
On the one hand, they have been there in support of many human rights initiatives - on the other, they have made choices that led to the interruption of the human rights of others.

Much like your recent meanderings on the DHP, hm? aren't we all bi-polar to different degrees?

shouldn't we be heavy on the judgement with our own fluctuations?

it truly takes the greatest of courages to keep ones judgement locked onto oneself.... [/QUOTE]Webster defines judgement as :

4 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing b : an opinion or estimate so formed

By this, who should NOT judge? Who should allow a judge to act for them?

As long as the Church maintain's some phantom power to judge all human beings, I will always reserve the right to judge them.

El Mayimbe

12-15-2003, 01:57 PM

quick question to everyone:

what if she did this at a holy Muslim or Jewish event?

I highly doubt everyone would be praising her as they are now if it were so.

I'm not one for defending the Catholic Church even being one who was raised Catholic but I do RESPECT religious ocassions.
My mother always taught me that if I were invited to someone's home you do not voice your personal objections of their religious/political or social difference since you are a guest.
Lauren could ahve simplymade a statement by turning down the performance and posting a public statement.

I question artists who voice "their personal/political opinions" at high profile ocassions when their Cd is only a few weeks or months away. :rolleyes:

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 02:03 PM

shanequa sanchez

12-15-2003, 02:04 PM

like i said...she did not insult anyone...didn't use derogatory language... had it been an islamic event or jewish event...same response from me.

right in ms. hill!!!!!!!!!!

rob brito

12-15-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rob brito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
On the one hand, they have been there in support of many human rights initiatives - on the other, they have made choices that led to the interruption of the human rights of others.

Much like your recent meanderings on the DHP, hm? aren't we all bi-polar to different degrees?

shouldn't we be heavy on the judgement with our own fluctuations?

it truly takes the greatest of courages to keep ones judgement locked onto oneself.... [/QUOTE]Webster defines judgement as :

4 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing b : an opinion or estimate so formed

By this, who should NOT judge? Who should allow a judge to act for them?

As long as the Church maintain's some phantom power to judge all human beings, I will always reserve the right to judge them. [/QUOTE]i think you should pay extra special attention to the word PROCESS dany....too many here have closed the books on too many important issues.

further...don't we ALL allow our psyches to be invaded upon by phantom powers and the ensuing struggles to free of us of these? the fact that the church wants to dominate you shouldn't mean you feel intimadated or forced to make them see their faults...i sincerely feel it's healthier and much more productive to turn your criticism upon yourself but as i said before it's ten times more difficult....pride gets in the way.

as a youth, i was instilled the "values" of the catholic church...i needed to criticize the church as it was indeed a part of my life and something i was extremely uncomfortable with...i judged myself and left the church and the judgement of its shotcomings behind.

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by rob brito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rob brito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
On the one hand, they have been there in support of many human rights initiatives - on the other, they have made choices that led to the interruption of the human rights of others.

Much like your recent meanderings on the DHP, hm? aren't we all bi-polar to different degrees?

shouldn't we be heavy on the judgement with our own fluctuations?

it truly takes the greatest of courages to keep ones judgement locked onto oneself.... [/QUOTE]Webster defines judgement as :

4 a : the process of forming an opinion or evaluation by discerning and comparing b : an opinion or estimate so formed

By this, who should NOT judge? Who should allow a judge to act for them?

As long as the Church maintain's some phantom power to judge all human beings, I will always reserve the right to judge them. [/QUOTE]i think you should pay extra special attention to the word PROCESS dany....too many here have closed the books on too many important issues.

further...don't we ALL allow our psyches to be invaded upon by phantom powers and the ensuing struggles to free of us of these? the fact that the church wants to dominate you shouldn't mean you feel intimadated or forced to make them see their faults...i sincerely feel it's healthier and much more productive to turn your criticism upon yourself but as i said before it's ten times more difficult....pride gets in the way.

as a youth, i was instilled the "values" of the catholic church...i needed to criticize the church as it was indeed a part of my life and something i was extremely uncomfortable with...i judged myself and left the church and the judgement of its shotcomings behind. [/QUOTE]The "Church" has used FINANCIAL and MILITARY influence to spread their dominance in judgement across the globe. Their influence, resources and allegiances comprise that of a medium-sized nation...YET they come under no watchful eye of a UN. They are not accountable on the world stage, yet they PROFOUNDLY influence global events.

This goes far beyond your local priest dissuading you from masturbating.

The structure of the paradigm of religious governance is to have the people flog themselves for questionable "sins" while they look askance at the effects of the TRUE activities of the powers that be over their lives.

And, btw - you're begging the question all throughout your responses.

El Mayimbe

12-15-2003, 02:18 PM

Neco: nah, I know she didnt use profanity or was vulgar, I just think she could have done it in a different manner instead of gobbling the spotlight for her personal objective. Of course the Church is @fault on their handling of the sexual abuses but the Church has done tons of things (and not just the catholic church) that was wrong throughout the ages.

I just want to play devil's advocate and point out that lets say she was invited to sing @a celebration in MECCA and when all the lights are on her and the cameras are rolling she voiced her objection to the practice of female circumsions upon young muslim women in the Sudan would you still praise her?

like I said she COULD HAVE turned down the offer to play @this event, released a press statement saying why and she would earn alot of RESPECT instead she did this in front of thousands of Christians celebrating the birth of Jesus and captured the attention for herself.
I dont trust music artists these days. ;)

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 02:21 PM

Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
//--I just want to play devil's advocate and point out that lets say she was invited to sing @a celebration in MECCA and when all the lights are on her and the cameras are rolling she voiced her objection to the practice of female circumsions upon young muslim women in the Sudan would you still praise her?--//That, and more if I could.

DJ RON C

12-15-2003, 02:22 PM

man, I just wish she'd let her hair grow out again. I am tired of her looking like Grover from Sesame Street. graemlins/cool_shades.gif

dYsKo

12-15-2003, 02:24 PM

..

This coming from a woman who has had 2 children with her "spiritual advisor" out of wedlock.

Confucious says..

"Don't throw stones living in glass house"

My momma says..

"Look at the pot calling the kettle Black"
graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

SPG

12-15-2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Beatdown:
man, I just wish she'd let her hair grow out again. I am tired of her looking like Grover from Sesame Street. graemlins/cool_shades.gif You ain't right :D

SPG

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by dYsKo:
..

This coming from a woman who has had 2 children with her "spiritual advisor" out of wedlock.

Confucious says..

"Don't throw stones living in glass house"

My momma says..

"Look at the pot calling the kettle Black"
graemlins/jpshakehead.gif So, you equate "having two children out of wedlock" (whatever the fuck that means in 2004) with COVERING UP MASS MOLESTATIONS OF CHILDREN at the hands of the AUTHORITY FIGURES THEY HAVE BEEN CONDITIONED TO REVERE AND RESPECT?

IF SO (and I SINCERELY hope not), please allow me to tell you that you are supremely fucked up and could really use the influence of a psychiatric professional.

dYsKo

12-15-2003, 02:34 PM

I am saying that in God's eyes, a sin is a sin.
Simple. Whether you kill or fornicate, you are a SINNER.

Man is the who who places degrees of evil on crimes, not God. Sin is Sin.

Therefore, who are we to judge? We are not.. She is no more qualified to pass judgement than ANY other human. She should keep her opinions out of a public forum concerning morality.

"He who is without sin shall cast the first stone"

[ December 15, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: dYsKo ]

shanequa sanchez

12-15-2003, 02:34 PM

lol @ beatdown!!!!
i hear ya...maybe she thought it was the right time since all the powers that be were present...or at least many of them were.... i think it was perfect to let them all know what she thought and felt...when would she ever have the audience and the attention of the church hierarchy to speak to or address them?? i don't think the pope would squeeze her into his "Busy" schedule....
she didn't insult the religion or it's followers....she just pointed out that all the silencing and cloaking of the abominable sins within the church need to be brought out in the open, and that they should practice what they speak.....
if she had said this to any religious organization because of serious indescretions and abuses, i would support her....
btw...i though God's house was everybody's house?

shanequa sanchez

12-15-2003, 02:37 PM

posted December 15, 2003 02:24
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This coming from a woman who has had 2 children with her "spiritual advisor" out of wedlock.

Confucious says..

"Don't throw stones living in glass house"

My momma says..

"Look at the pot calling the kettle Black"
--------------------------------------------------

i guess we're all going TO BURN IN HELL!!!!! mad1.gif

DJ RON C

12-15-2003, 02:41 PM

Man, I am down for artists expressing themselves through their appearance, but how come it is never to look better? graemlins/rofl.gif

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by dYsKo:
//--"He who is without sin shall cast the first stone" The so-called Jesus supposedly spoke this phrase in DEBATE with the RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY of his time. In relation to Lauryn Hill's protest, it is within the same context.

This "command" the so-called Jesus reportedly uttered has been reversed back on to the common man by the same powers that he supposedly faught against.

Ugh - religious bullshit rules today.

mhd

12-15-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dYsKo:
//--"He who is without sin shall cast the first stone" The so-called Jesus supposedly spoke this phrase in DEBATE with the RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY of his time. In relation to Lauryn Hill's protest, it is within the same context.

This "command" the so-called Jesus reportedly uttered has been reversed back on to the common man by the same powers that he supposedly faught against.

Ugh - religious bullshit rules today. [/QUOTE]jesus came to the aid of the lone woman scorned by the masses, i daresay jesus would have come to Lauryn's defense in this instance as well

MYOR

12-15-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by dYsKo:
I am saying that in God's eyes, a sin is a sin.
Simple. Whether you kill or fornicate, you are a SINNER.

Man is the who who places degrees of evil on crimes, not God. Sin is Sin.

Therefore, who are we to judge? We are not.. She is no more qualified to pass judgement than ANY other human. She should keep her opinions out of a public forum concerning morality.

"He who is without sin shall cast the first stone" This is such BS..

And if GOD sees fornicating the same as killing.. GOD is an idiot.. OPPs I GUESS I'M GOING TO HELL...

dYsKo

12-15-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dYsKo:
//--"He who is without sin shall cast the first stone" The so-called Jesus supposedly spoke this phrase in DEBATE with the RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY of his time. In relation to Lauryn Hill's protest, it is within the same context.

This "command" the so-called Jesus reportedly uttered has been reversed back on to the common man by the same powers that he supposedly faught against.

Ugh - religious bullshit rules today. [/QUOTE]"So- called Jesus" ??? :(
Conversation over. No need in intelligent debate with one who does not believe. You nor I will ever win with different beliefs.

Agree to disagree. graemlins/bighug.gif

jimmymack-2000

12-15-2003, 03:01 PM

This reminds me of an eternal debate in "anti-racist feminism"--whether or not white, college-educated "emancipated" womyn should be condemning female circumcision (or "genital mutilation," depending on your bias) by certain cultures.

Yes, and you run the risk of being labelled "culturally insensitive" at best (and racist at worst). No, and you are consigning young Muslim/African girls to horrid fates...big conundrum.

shanequa sanchez

12-15-2003, 03:06 PM

all these dichotomies..... graemlins/jpshakehead.gif
see what happens when arguments are presented in nice, neat packages.....

WE ALL BURN IN HELL!!!!! mad1.gif

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 03:08 PM

Originally posted by dYsKo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dYsKo:
//--"He who is without sin shall cast the first stone" The so-called Jesus supposedly spoke this phrase in DEBATE with the RELIGIOUS AUTHORITY of his time. In relation to Lauryn Hill's protest, it is within the same context.

This "command" the so-called Jesus reportedly uttered has been reversed back on to the common man by the same powers that he supposedly faught against.

Ugh - religious bullshit rules today. [/QUOTE]"So- called Jesus" ??? :(
Conversation over. No need in intelligent debate with one who does not believe. You nor I will ever win with different beliefs.

Agree to disagree. graemlins/bighug.gif [/QUOTE]Cop out. Carry on in your dissolution of alternative viewpoint.

Tenyu

12-15-2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
This reminds me of an eternal debate in "anti-racist feminism"--whether or not white, college-educated "emancipated" womyn should be condemning female circumcision (or "genital mutilation," depending on your bias) by certain cultures.

Yes, and you run the risk of being labelled "culturally insensitive" at best (and racist at worst). No, and you are consigning young Muslim/African girls to horrid fates...big conundrum. outside of any political motives, why would anyone care about offending any "culture" so immature, so antithetical to nature. real religion has nothing to do with torture, genocide, and rape, basically all things of the judeochristian, islamic institutional tradition

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Tenyu:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
This reminds me of an eternal debate in "anti-racist feminism"--whether or not white, college-educated "emancipated" womyn should be condemning female circumcision (or "genital mutilation," depending on your bias) by certain cultures.

Yes, and you run the risk of being labelled "culturally insensitive" at best (and racist at worst). No, and you are consigning young Muslim/African girls to horrid fates...big conundrum. outside of any political motives, why would anyone care about offending any "culture" so immature, so antithetical to nature. real religion has nothing to do with torture, genocide, and rape, basically all things of the judeochristian, islamic institutional tradition [/QUOTE]Damn. Cut that out. When so much wisdom gets packed into one post, I get a tremendous head rush. There goes me operating any heavy machinery today. ;)

jimmymack-2000

12-15-2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Tenyu:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
This reminds me of an eternal debate in "anti-racist feminism"--whether or not white, college-educated "emancipated" womyn should be condemning female circumcision (or "genital mutilation," depending on your bias) by certain cultures.

Yes, and you run the risk of being labelled "culturally insensitive" at best (and racist at worst). No, and you are consigning young Muslim/African girls to horrid fates...big conundrum. outside of any political motives, why would anyone care about offending any "culture" so immature, so antithetical to nature. real religion has nothing to do with torture, genocide, and rape, basically all things of the judeochristian, islamic institutional tradition [/QUOTE]That there's the right way to do it, but believe it or not there are some who would call you Eurocentric and paternalistic for that stance.

D J 1 3 8

12-15-2003, 03:47 PM

People said the same thing about Michael Moore's anti-Bush speech at the Oscars.
"He shouldn't have said that there"
"That was not the time or place for political statements"
blah blah blah

To all that I say a huge "FUCK DAT".

Both people had the ear of a HUGE audience and took that rare opportunity to make their opinions known. Carpe Diem at it's best, IMO.

Dee-Dee Sheridan

12-15-2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by Beatdown:
man, I just wish she'd let her hair grow out again. I am tired of her looking like Grover from Sesame Street. graemlins/cool_shades.gif graemlins/rofl5.gif

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

12-15-2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
quick question to everyone:

what if she did this at a holy Muslim or Jewish event?

I highly doubt everyone would be praising her as they are now if it were so.

I'm not one for defending the Catholic Church even being one who was raised Catholic but I do RESPECT religious ocassions.
My mother always taught me that if I were invited to someone's home you do not voice your personal objections of their religious/political or social difference since you are a guest.
Lauren could ahve simplymade a statement by turning down the performance and posting a public statement.

I question artists who voice "their personal/political opinions" at high profile ocassions when their Cd is only a few weeks or months away. :rolleyes: I would respect her no matter what religion/sect/venue or whatever. No matter what her motives it took guts for her to do it. When people realize that their voice count and stop giving in to power that tries to control you with fear tactics the better alot of us will be. True enough there are times and places to be heard but shutting up completely is nothing but fear. What's the point of living a life of someone elses if it doesn't benefit you? The people that have something to say, realizes life is worth something. And those people are impacting others by being a voice for those that can't be heard.

I am Christian and I speak against alot of Christian beliefs that harm others in the name of Christ. Because that is not what God is. God is Love but he is also a Judge. We make a difference in other people's lives but love and standing up for what is right without harming, defacing, dehumanizing, judging or hatred. People stand behind religion, choose verses out of the bible, Torah, Quran etc. to fit their crime or justify their wrong doing. So if Ms. Hill had said that on a Christian Network, I wouldn't at all be surprised or offended.

We still have a right to voice our say against those that practice one thing openly and defile that practice privately.

DJ RON C

12-15-2003, 04:26 PM

Dee-Dee, I luv me some Lauren Hill, but the truth is the truth. graemlins/cool_shades.gif

TAD

12-15-2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by chewie:
i dunno waht middle passage you're referring to and i dunno who killed how many when and in who's name

what i am interested in (genuinely) is where the disillusioned ex-christians find something deeper, where does the search take them? wherever their spirit guides them. for some, the soul grows weary & restless & yearns for something more. taoism is but one example.

MIDDLE PASSAGE (http://www.juneteenth.com/middlep.htm)

jimmymack-2000

12-15-2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Cosmic T:
wherever their spirit guides them. for some, the soul grows weary & restless & yearns for something more. taoism is but one example.

MIDDLE PASSAGE (http://www.juneteenth.com/middlep.htm) That is a powerful site indeed, Tony. However, did you know that the story contained therein about John Newton and the origins of the hymn "Amazing Grace" is an urban legend?

The myths surrounding Amazing Grace (http://www.snopes.com/religion/amazing.htm)

Friday

12-15-2003, 04:56 PM

Wow! This really took off! All I have to say is when I read this last night I was so impressed with the COURAGE Ms. Hill displayed. Her's was one voice that represented so many (at least me) in the face of danger and falsehood.

I keep saying this....but here is another wake up call. It is seriously the time now to break down the structures and foundations we did not build nor create!!!

YAY!! for Lauryn graemlins/cheering.gif

Dee-Dee Sheridan

12-15-2003, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Beatdown:
Dee-Dee, I luv me some Lauren Hill, but the truth is the truth. graemlins/cool_shades.gif Hahahahaha you telling the truth. She's a pretty girl but that head of hers looks tore up.

richierich

12-15-2003, 05:03 PM

Naw fvck that be scared of authority and be sheep...you must never question anything...just go along with it....they have your back....bwahahahaha!!

[ December 15, 2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

Brian

12-15-2003, 05:10 PM

Originally posted by chewie:

i dunno waht middle passage you're referring to and i dunno who killed how many when and in who's name

what i am interested in (genuinely) is where the disillusioned ex-christians find something deeper, where does the search take them? to a reevaluation of the religious documents and their interpretation ... less literal and more allegorical for example

[ December 15, 2003, 05:12 PM: Message edited by: Brian ]

rob brito

12-15-2003, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
And, btw - you're begging the question all throughout your responses. i speak of personal experience and yet am not interested in passing judgement on a group comprised of thousands of clergymen/women of free will and distinct agendas.

you claim the church to be evil point blank and, as much as i agree with you on the negative points, it's ALL you have decided to bring up...be fair danny, i know what their history is composed of in terms of damage to civilization but there are people within that belief system we all need to be grateful for and i only want to see the views on the church get balanced out at least i little bit in due to them.

peace out man.

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 07:03 PM

Originally posted by rob brito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
And, btw - you're begging the question all throughout your responses. i speak of personal experience and yet am not interested in passing judgement on a group comprised of thousands of clergymen/women of free will and distinct agendas.

you claim the church to be evil point blank and, as much as i agree with you on the negative points, it's ALL you have decided to bring up...be fair danny, i know what their history is composed of in terms of damage to civilization but there are people within that belief system we all need to be grateful for and i only want to see the views on the church get balanced out at least i little bit in due to them.

peace out man. [/QUOTE]Rob - you've got me mixed up with someone else. There has been value to society from the Catholic church - this I know from the experience of being raised Catholic.

But I can't allow the reception of that value to cloud my judgement about their behavior on the world stage.

rob brito

12-15-2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by rob brito:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
And, btw - you're begging the question all throughout your responses. i speak of personal experience and yet am not interested in passing judgement on a group comprised of thousands of clergymen/women of free will and distinct agendas.

you claim the church to be evil point blank and, as much as i agree with you on the negative points, it's ALL you have decided to bring up...be fair danny, i know what their history is composed of in terms of damage to civilization but there are people within that belief system we all need to be grateful for and i only want to see the views on the church get balanced out at least i little bit in due to them.

peace out man. [/QUOTE]Rob - you've got me mixed up with someone else. There has been value to society from the Catholic church - this I know from the experience of being raised Catholic.

But I can't allow the reception of that value to cloud my judgement about their behavior on the world stage. [/QUOTE]i'm with you on this....however an ongoing process to really weed out the problem and the more i look into it the faith plays a minimal role as deceptive as it is, maybe as a cover for individuals' weaknesses and perversions but it really comes down to each and every individual to stand up and take responsibility for their shortcomings as opposed to an organization.

as you know, the faith is not in line with my own.

Bold Soul

12-15-2003, 07:25 PM

mhd

12-15-2003, 07:55 PM

Querck

12-16-2003, 02:38 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
i don't get some people
i'm not religious, but i do respect those that are
i think that if you have a valid comment to make then make it in a proper forum. many people have issues with islam, but i wouldn't think that they would be right to go mecca and shout about - it's about respect.

to the people (i guess i'm talking about dannyboy) saying that the catholic church is 'a joke'
1. do you know what you're talking about? - doubt it
2. how can disrespecting one of the largest religions in the world be 'awesome'?
3. if you've got something to expose about the church as a whole rather than about the unacceptable minority - spill it

every organisation has it's undesirable elements, but if a social worker abuses a child i wouldn't say that you should shut down all social services - just take action against the guilty parties Yes, I know exactly what I'm talking about. The sex abuse and its massive cover-up is just the surface of everything that is fundamentally wrong with the Catholic church.

I have no respect for Catholicism. I have no respect for organized religion in general, and I'll never be afraid to say it. Especially in relation to religions that have been historically most violent: Christianity and Islam. Fuk them both!

And

12-16-2003, 04:21 AM

Originally posted by Dee-Dee Sheridan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Beatdown:
Dee-Dee, I luv me some Lauren Hill, but the truth is the truth. graemlins/cool_shades.gif Hahahahaha you telling the truth. She's a pretty girl but that head of hers looks tore up. [/QUOTE]What is up with you and the short hair thing. Don't tell me you buy into that "good" and "bad" hair bullshit too. graemlins/conf44.gif

O'love

12-16-2003, 04:44 AM

Originally posted by dannyboy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
i don't get some people
i'm not religious, but i do respect those that are
i think that if you have a valid comment to make then make it in a proper forum. many people have issues with islam, but i wouldn't think that they would be right to go mecca and shout about - it's about respect.

to the people (i guess i'm talking about dannyboy) saying that the catholic church is 'a joke'
1. do you know what you're talking about? - doubt it
2. how can disrespecting one of the largest religions in the world be 'awesome'?
3. if you've got something to expose about the church as a whole rather than about the unacceptable minority - spill it

every organisation has it's undesirable elements, but if a social worker abuses a child i wouldn't say that you should shut down all social services - just take action against the guilty parties Yes, I know exactly what I'm talking about. The sex abuse and its massive cover-up is just the surface of everything that is fundamentally wrong with the Catholic church.

I have no respect for Catholicism. I have no respect for organized religion in general, and I'll never be afraid to say it. Especially in relation to religions that have been historically most violent: Christianity and Islam. Fuk them both! [/QUOTE]so answer this: would you DJ at the vatican or in Mekka when you were booked by the "top" of respectively the catholic or Islam religion?

i still wonder: was Lauren Hill paid by the Vatican to perform there?

Olaf

chewie

12-16-2003, 06:11 AM

in england we have this system whereby you can be 'honoured' by the queen, as a member of the british empire (mbe) or other similar titles.

recently a guy called benjamin zephaniah (a rasta poet and spokesman) was placed on the list for such an honour. now benjamin had a statement to make - about aspects of the british empire as was and he took this opportunity to be heard.

but, he didn't go to the palace and then when he was about to receive the medal or whatever shout his statement in the queens face. he refused the award in advance and took the opportunity to make his statement to the media in a considered and comprehensive fashion

if you ask me, lauryn would have done better to follow benjamin's example - on being invited to the vatican, she could have said no and taken to the opportunity to make a considered and accurate statement regarding abuse carried out by catholic priests to the world's media

as it is i don't really think what she did gave anyone much think about or to educate them, it was just disrespectful

Dee-Dee Sheridan

12-16-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dee-Dee Sheridan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Beatdown:
Dee-Dee, I luv me some Lauren Hill, but the truth is the truth. graemlins/cool_shades.gif Hahahahaha you telling the truth. She's a pretty girl but that head of hers looks tore up. [/QUOTE]What is up with you and the short hair thing. Don't tell me you buy into that "good" and "bad" hair bullshit too. graemlins/conf44.gif [/QUOTE]What the hell are you talking about?

DJ RON C

12-16-2003, 09:54 AM

I wasn't talking about the "good hair vs bad hair" issue...that is a whole 'nother drama that we as black people have to deal with.

I just think she looked beautiful with her hair long. Her dreads were nice too. I just think her hairstyle no is preety wack and doesn't flatter her at all.

I understand going back to our roots, but couldn't she go back with a good rinse job? graemlins/cool_shades.gif

Dee-Dee Sheridan

12-16-2003, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by Beatdown:
I wasn't talking about the "good hair vs bad hair" issue...that is a whole 'nother drama that we as black people have to deal with.

I just think she looked beautiful with her hair long. Her dreads were nice too. I just think her hairstyle no is preety wack and doesn't flatter her at all.

I understand going back to our roots, but couldn't she go back with a good rinse job? graemlins/cool_shades.gif Thank you Ron.

Martin Red

12-16-2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
No matter what her motives it took guts for her to do it.Guts if she was of the faith , perhaps gusto if she wasn't.

Dee-Dee Sheridan

12-16-2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Dee-Dee Sheridan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Beatdown:
I wasn't talking about the "good hair vs bad hair" issue...that is a whole 'nother drama that we as black people have to deal with.

I just think she looked beautiful with her hair long. Her dreads were nice too. I just think her hairstyle no is preety wack and doesn't flatter her at all.

I understand going back to our roots, but couldn't she go back with a good rinse job? graemlins/cool_shades.gif Thank you Ron. I said something about ball headed women 4 or 5 months ago. I must have stepped on her toes or something. [/QUOTE]graemlins/conf44.gif

[ December 16, 2003, 10:29 AM: Message edited by: Dee-Dee Sheridan ]

Friday

12-16-2003, 10:34 AM

Guys! This isn't about hair, let's keep it on topic! biggrinangel.gif

Dee-Dee Sheridan

12-16-2003, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by gf:
Guys! This isn't about hair, let's keep it on topic! biggrinangel.gif Ron started it...he's a shit starter :D

Dee-Dee Sheridan

12-16-2003, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by Beatdown:
man, I just wish she'd let her hair grow out again. I am tired of her looking like Grover from Sesame Street. graemlins/cool_shades.gif See Ron started this whole thing graemlins/grinyes.gif

Bold Soul

12-16-2003, 10:51 AM

DJ RON C

12-16-2003, 10:59 AM

Damn, Dee-dee! You always tellin' mama on me! graemlins/rofl.gif

Sorry for jacking the thread, guys. I will not post here any more. Consider this thread officially de-jacked. Proceed with your discussions. graemlins/cool_shades.gif

Insert pseudonym here

12-16-2003, 10:59 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
in england we have this system whereby you can be 'honoured' by the queen, as a member of the british empire (mbe) or other similar titles.

recently a guy called benjamin zephaniah (a rasta poet and spokesman) was placed on the list for such an honour. now benjamin had a statement to make - about aspects of the british empire as was and he took this opportunity to be heard.

but, he didn't go to the palace and then when he was about to receive the medal or whatever shout his statement in the queens face. he refused the award in advance and took the opportunity to make his statement to the media in a considered and comprehensive fashion

if you ask me, lauryn would have done better to follow benjamin's example - on being invited to the vatican, she could have said no and taken to the opportunity to make a considered and accurate statement regarding abuse carried out by catholic priests to the world's media

as it is i don't really think what she did gave anyone much think about or to educate them, it was just disrespectful The tenacity in which Britons of African descent and Americans of African descent address injustice are a bit different.

I totally respect what you are saying.... in fact, I read that article about Ben Z in the Metro. As a Black American living in England I was quite impressed with how he handle the situation. Using the media to address his views was quite savvy. Surely the proper way to address a situation in a British setting.

However, I must defend Lauryn's tactics... because some members of the Catholic regime have been stealth-like and poignant in their corruption and injustice. Her tactics were just as poignant as the subject matter she addressed. Often times as Black Americans speaking directly in the arena of those who are adversaries have been the only way to be heard... it may be the source of Lauryn's grassroot tactics.

For her to speak out about the Lion in the Lion's Den was not to be appreciated by the light hearted or those who follow a certain type of etiquette.

No beef... but that's my £0.02

[ December 16, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: Insert pseudonym here ]

chewie

12-16-2003, 11:05 AM

danny g and efabulous,

you know, i think that you're right - there are cultural differences in the way we do things in the UK compared to the US and i guess lauryn's done it the US way

Friday

12-16-2003, 11:07 AM

Originally posted by Beatdown:
Damn, Dee-dee! You always tellin' mama on me! graemlins/rofl.gif

Sorry for jacking the thread, guys. I will not post here any more. Consider this thread officially de-jacked. Proceed with your discussions. graemlins/cool_shades.gif No need for apologies, or pulling hair! http://deephousepage.com/smilies/afro.gif

Friday

12-16-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
danny g and efabulous,

you know, i think that you're right - there are cultural differences in the way we do things in the UK compared to the US and i guess lauryn's done it the US way Now this is the way discussions should be handled!!

More power to everyone that opened themselves to learning something, I am thrilled. smile.gif

Dee-Dee Sheridan

12-16-2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by gf:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Beatdown:
Damn, Dee-dee! You always tellin' mama on me! graemlins/rofl.gif

Sorry for jacking the thread, guys. I will not post here any more. Consider this thread officially de-jacked. Proceed with your discussions. graemlins/cool_shades.gif No need for apologies, or pulling hair! http://deephousepage.com/smilies/afro.gif [/QUOTE]ok momma http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif

mhd

12-16-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by chewie:
danny g and efabulous,

you know, i think that you're right - there are cultural differences in the way we do things in the UK compared to the US and i guess lauryn's done it the US way what de hail does the uk have to do with it? if you had not noticed this is a worldwide problem, imho, lauryn should get a medal for speaking truth to power, lions den indeed

Mike Johnson

12-16-2003, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by chewie:
in england we have this system whereby you can be 'honoured' by the queen, as a member of the british empire (mbe) or other similar titles.

recently a guy called benjamin zephaniah (a rasta poet and spokesman) was placed on the list for such an honour. now benjamin had a statement to make - about aspects of the british empire as was and he took this opportunity to be heard.

but, he didn't go to the palace and then when he was about to receive the medal or whatever shout his statement in the queens face. he refused the award in advance and took the opportunity to make his statement to the media in a considered and comprehensive fashion

if you ask me, lauryn would have done better to follow benjamin's example - on being invited to the vatican, she could have said no and taken to the opportunity to make a considered and accurate statement regarding abuse carried out by catholic priests to the world's media

as it is i don't really think what she did gave anyone much think about or to educate them, it was just disrespectful There is no such thing as a specific time or place for the truth to be told - and there is nothing more educational than being smacked in the face with the truth. If she had submitted, as some of you suggest, a written statement, it wouldn't have been any less poignant, any less truthful. Why not say it when you've got the attention of those who need to hear it? What better purpose would a written statement have served? This whole mess was something that was allowed to continue, with the church's full knowledge, because the truth was constantly being swept under the rug - until the rug could hide it no more. If you want to push this whole notion of respect and of tact and of times and places, how about showing respect for someone who had the courage to tell the TRUTH!

Friday

12-16-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by Dee-Dee Sheridan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gf:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Beatdown:
Damn, Dee-dee! You always tellin' mama on me! graemlins/rofl.gif

Sorry for jacking the thread, guys. I will not post here any more. Consider this thread officially de-jacked. Proceed with your discussions. graemlins/cool_shades.gif No need for apologies, or pulling hair! http://deephousepage.com/smilies/afro.gif [/QUOTE]ok momma http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif [/QUOTE]graemlins/rofl.gif come on out Dee Dee!

shanequa sanchez

12-16-2003, 07:41 PM

what de hail does the uk have to do with it? if you had not noticed this is a worldwide problem, imho, lauryn should get a medal for speaking truth to power, lions den indeed
__________________________________________________

gotta agree with mhd on this one....
brits have a long and contentious and powerful history of social protest and upheaval...don't think "manners", or the "right way" were of primary importance to bringing about change.
man...all she said was how she felt..she ain't curse nobody out, or AR15firing.gif nobody!!!

chewie

12-17-2003, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
danny g and efabulous,

you know, i think that you're right - there are cultural differences in the way we do things in the UK compared to the US and i guess lauryn's done it the US way what de hail does the uk have to do with it? if you had not noticed this is a worldwide problem, imho, lauryn should get a medal for speaking truth to power, lions den indeed [/QUOTE]i don't know you but i'm surprised that you don't realise that different people from different countries do things in different ways sometimes - that's what the uk has to do with it. if you ask me the 'uk way' as demonstrated by zephaniah is a better way.

what did lauryn say? nothing specific - she hinted at stuff, but if you gonna say something spell it out - what truth did she speak?.
and if you're going to say something why not say to people who don't know - if you ask me there's no point telling the church, if it's true they know and she ain't gonna change it by talking to them. surely she should be looking to tell the people that don't know and i don't think that she said anything clear enough to explain the situation to the ignorant - make a statement to give food for thought

if you're gonna 'speak truth' why not say it plain and back it up?

chewie

12-17-2003, 03:55 AM

Originally posted by Mike Johnson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
in england we have this system whereby you can be 'honoured' by the queen, as a member of the british empire (mbe) or other similar titles.

recently a guy called benjamin zephaniah (a rasta poet and spokesman) was placed on the list for such an honour. now benjamin had a statement to make - about aspects of the british empire as was and he took this opportunity to be heard.

but, he didn't go to the palace and then when he was about to receive the medal or whatever shout his statement in the queens face. he refused the award in advance and took the opportunity to make his statement to the media in a considered and comprehensive fashion

if you ask me, lauryn would have done better to follow benjamin's example - on being invited to the vatican, she could have said no and taken to the opportunity to make a considered and accurate statement regarding abuse carried out by catholic priests to the world's media

as it is i don't really think what she did gave anyone much think about or to educate them, it was just disrespectful There is no such thing as a specific time or place for the truth to be told - and there is nothing more educational than being smacked in the face with the truth. If she had submitted, as some of you suggest, a written statement, it wouldn't have been any less poignant, any less truthful. Why not say it when you've got the attention of those who need to hear it? What better purpose would a written statement have served? This whole mess was something that was allowed to continue, with the church's full knowledge, because the truth was constantly being swept under the rug - until the rug could hide it no more. If you want to push this whole notion of respect and of tact and of times and places, how about showing respect for someone who had the courage to tell the TRUTH! [/QUOTE]i don't get this one minute you say she's educating those that need to hear it, next you say the church has full knowledge - educate the ignorant, but do it accurately and in a way that people who don't know will understand - i don't think she's done this

of course i respect those with the courage to tell the truth, but even more those who wish to educate and change things

chewie

12-17-2003, 03:58 AM

Originally posted by neco:
what de hail does the uk have to do with it? if you had not noticed this is a worldwide problem, imho, lauryn should get a medal for speaking truth to power, lions den indeed
__________________________________________________

gotta agree with mhd on this one....
brits have a long and contentious and powerful history of social protest and upheaval...don't think "manners", or the "right way" were of primary importance to bringing about change.
man...all she said was how she felt..she ain't curse nobody out, or AR15firing.gif nobody!!! i agree manners don't bring about change, but neither do soundbites that get cut from tv shows

what makes change is education, but if you can do this in the 'right way' all the better - it ain't just what you do it's the way that you do it

12-17-2003, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by chewie:
i guess lauryn's done it the US way Also known as the "thoughtless" way. Need proof? Look at the prize we put into the oval office.

Dee-Dee Sheridan

12-17-2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by gf:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dee-Dee Sheridan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gf:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Beatdown:
Damn, Dee-dee! You always tellin' mama on me! graemlins/rofl.gif

Sorry for jacking the thread, guys. I will not post here any more. Consider this thread officially de-jacked. Proceed with your discussions. graemlins/cool_shades.gif No need for apologies, or pulling hair! http://deephousepage.com/smilies/afro.gif [/QUOTE]ok momma http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif [/QUOTE]graemlins/rofl.gif come on out Dee Dee! [/QUOTE]Ok momma...hey Ron It's ok to come out now... you can continue to talk about Lauren Hill again...Remember when you said that her hair doo looks like Grover from Seasame Street?
graemlins/rofl5.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif

[ December 17, 2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: Dee-Dee Sheridan ]

Friday

12-17-2003, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by Dee-Dee Sheridan:
Ok momma...hey Ron It's ok to come out now... you can continue to talk about Lauren Hill's again...Remeber when you said that her hair doo looks like Grover from Seasame Street again?
graemlins/rofl5.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif hahahaha!!! graemlins/rofl.gif

TAD

12-17-2003, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by chewie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by chewie:
danny g and efabulous,

you know, i think that you're right - there are cultural differences in the way we do things in the UK compared to the US and i guess lauryn's done it the US way what de hail does the uk have to do with it? if you had not noticed this is a worldwide problem, imho, lauryn should get a medal for speaking truth to power, lions den indeed [/QUOTE]i don't know you but i'm surprised that you don't realise that different people from different countries do things in different ways sometimes - that's what the uk has to do with it. if you ask me the 'uk way' as demonstrated by zephaniah is a better way.

what did lauryn say? nothing specific - she hinted at stuff, but if you gonna say something spell it out - what truth did she speak?.
and if you're going to say something why not say to people who don't know - if you ask me there's no point telling the church, if it's true they know and she ain't gonna change it by talking to them. surely she should be looking to tell the people that don't know and i don't think that she said anything clear enough to explain the situation to the ignorant - make a statement to give food for thought

if you're gonna 'speak truth' why not say it plain and back it up? [/QUOTE]you're missing the point. shock & awe man, shock & awe!!!