djs, does playing for free hurt this art?

[floorgasm]

i think it's a tough call. there are tons of djs in my city that will play for free just to get some time, and i can't say that i blame them, cuz everyone has to get their gravy somehow. but does having a city full of free djs affect the integrity of the art? i for one won't play for free. that's not to say i demand top dollar or that i think i'm better than other cats around here (cuz i'm not), but i've been doing this long enough to respect it for what it is (or can be) worth. charity events are different, but on the real, if you want me to rock your room, it comes with a price.

[ June 10, 2003, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: floorgasm ]

[YUJI-SAN]

I do it for the love not for the money.

[Pete Nice]

you should always play as best you can. whether it's for money or not. if your gonna half a** then stay at home.

[guy formally knwn as mfsb]

I don't think it hurts the art. It all depends on the individual. If it doesn't bother u to play for free then whats the problem? For me, if the promoter is not charging a door fee then I'll spin for free. But if they are charging at the door, then I feel I deserve some piece of the money. It doesn't have to be top dollar but a little helps to make u feel appreciated.


scene from Dead Presidents (when dude cut that guys head off in Vietnam): "I'm just collecting some souveniers like u sir."

[däp]

can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely.

[MCarnet]

can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely agreed.

[Woody Rosen]

there is absolutely nothing that says that the better you are the more you deserve to get paid.

[Red D]

Birthday parties of close friends, farewell parties, parties of your football club, an occasional wedding, etc, etc... The question is where does it stop?
If a dj buys records on a weekly basis to stay on top of his game I think it's only fair he gets paid something in some way or the other, this can be money, drinks/dinner, loads of free tickets to hand out to his/her friends, travel expenses if playing abroad, whatever.
DJ's playing for free is like handing out free fruit in front of a supermarket, it's hurts the business and ultimately brings down the market price, and that's bad for all the parties involved: money-hungry promotors will take the cheapest dj, whatever his skills, the parties will be lacking in quality, the audience will stay away, dj's will no longer get paid, etc, etc.

You should know that by the end of the day I myself am in no way supporting the stupendous amounts some dj's ask, but within your budget a dj should receive a fair share, and from my dj point of view I do think I deserve something for my work.

RD

[blackwax]

It can hurt the scene as a lot of clubs here would rather put on a dj that dosn't charge than pay someone trouble is most of the time the dj's that play for free are rubbish thats why they do it for free as they can't get paid!!So the standard of music suffers through crap dj's and the good dj's struggle to get work

[The Donger]

Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music.

[Keith Blackstone]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. ... now THAT'S house! I have to agree with you, 100%

[Sensei Melei]

Donger speaks the truth...

[Jamie 3:26]

To continue where Donger left off....SHO NUFF!!!

That shit is gospel.I know of many cats who have gigs in spots,who first have no real professional experience playing at all these evnts for free or practically free and when a jock who has the skills and credentials try to get in,they get dissed.

I know of many jocks here who would tell a promoter they will spin for free,just for a chance to play.That's some Ho shit.Plain and simple.Act like a ho,expect to get treated like a ho....Out!!!

[Big Paul Y'all!!]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]I feel you for real!!

[TerranceFoster]

Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. i agree also i have done some free gigs my self
and it has just been for getting people to know who i am

[MusicFilter]

Originally posted by YUJI BR0WN:
I do it for the love not for the money. graemlins/lol.gif Then what are you using to buy your records?

[Discogoddess]

@Jamie: Why you gotta sully the name of hos by comparing them to wack DJs? That ain't fair to the hos of every stripe, gender and background, man! :D

[MusicFilter]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]icon_rofl.gif Say that shit ghost!!!

[Jamie 3:26]

Originally posted by chgodj3:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by YUJI BR0WN:
I do it for the love not for the money. graemlins/lol.gif Then what are you using to buy your records? </font>[/QUOTE]That's right.Love ain't gonna buy you that hot new white label...

[MrLiam]

its hurts everyone from the DJ's who are spinning for free to the whole scene & DJ who are really trying to make something out of it mad1.gif

[fred da warrior]

G-Man, lock this damn thread up and place this in the "best of"....

Right on, Donger!

[MusicFilter]

The first time is free!
The next time, you pay me! graemlins/acclaim.gif

A little self promotion can't help, but does hinder what DJs can be paid out here. If you are use to getting paid a certain amount for like wedding receptions or private parties and some AR15firing.gif "sucka DJ" is out there offering his services for next to nothing, it hurts the industry. That guy may not be worth what he's charging and the real Professional DJ is without a job.

Don't get me wrong I've taken some cheap jobs because I needed the money and worked my ass off for those people, but it usually isn't worth it unless you get a normal paying gig out of it.

I tell all my clients,(in some cases) you get what you pay for.

A man with records, does not a DJ make!!!

[TAD]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]you just described my home town.

[lyot]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]hey dong, some valid points, but don't you think there are more reasons to the decline of the art then the fact that some wack dj's tend to play for free ? Can it not be the other way around ? That people are just fed up with having to pay too much entrance to see a big name dj ?

Also, if it's simple demand and supply, shouldn't the conclusion not be that some dj's are charging too much sometimes for their 'artform' ?

Not to dismiss your points, but I've drawn so many people into this music by organising free parties (where as a result the dj's weren't payed a lot or even not at all)..

This being said, I agree to great extent with what Red D was saying.

greetings,

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree completely. In my area the club owners are aware that they can hire some new jack kid with 2 crates for $50 a night or even for free and he will be their puppet. We used to have control and get paid what we deserved but that was ten years ago. They hire the dj's that play radio stuff now and in turn get free radio ad spots.

DJ's have to set pay standards and stick to them. That means denying gigs for $50 a night or that don't give you a fair deal. I start a new weekly gig tomorrow night and we've managed to get the whole door. That's nice but it leaves promotion up to us as well. We'll see. I remember mid 90's getting $100 an hour and the club did all promotions and they were so behind us. Now they treat us like bus boys and the lack of management respect has a trickle down effect. From the managers to the bartenders to the bouncers to the patrons.

[Huey P. Freeman]

Originally posted by Big Paul Y'all!!:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]I feel you for real!! </font>[/QUOTE]I'd have to disagree. It doesn't hurt the art at all. And as far as newbie Djs Donger, Jamie and Paul you were all once newbie Djs so that doesn't mean anything. I have great respect for all three of you guys but I have to disagree. To me it's no different that a band playing a club for free to get exposure. Once they have a following then they can start charging. It doesn't hurt other bands or stop other bands from making money. In other words a "newbie Dj" spinning for free doesn't hurt you guys. You all are in demand because of your skills and following. So you still get paid.

[ June 11, 2003, 01:05 PM: Message edited by: Eargasm ]

[DJ George Bates]

I am paid now when i play mostly but will do a free gig...

I played Slicks for the promoter on Tuesdays because he's he's a friend and the people I met that night made it worth it....

i wouldn't do a whole night free... no way.
An hour or two tho , sure.

if it gets me in a place to play and I feel doors are being opened... I'd do it.

one time tho. no. smile.gif

i do understand someone new doing it for free to get on tho... it all starts somewhere for ya .

[The Donger]

Even as a newbie DJ I always made sure I got paid properly.

You want exposure? Hand out mix cds, bust your ass by making connects, take advantage of the internet, and maybe throw your own party or start your own radio program. Anything other than playing yourself and enabling shifty promoters and venue owners to take advantage of you. I alway pay my djs, I never used that bullshit "exposure" line on anybody.

FYI, I finally got paid by Boom!

[Jamie 3:26]

Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Big Paul Y'all!!:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]I feel you for real!! </font>[/QUOTE]I'd have to disagree. It doesn't hurt the art at all. And as far as newbie Djs Donger, Jamie and Paul you were all once newbie Djs so that doesn't mean anything. I have great respect for all three of you guys but I have to disagree. To me it's no different that a band playing a club for free to get exposure. Once they have a following then they can start charging. It doesn't hurt other bands or stop other bands from making money. In other words a "newbie Dj" spinning for free doesn't hurt you guys. You all are in demand because of your skills and following. So you still get paid. </font>[/QUOTE]C'mon dude.I did my share of sets back then and I still charged and got paid.I was not that geeked to do a set where I would not make any money.Why spend over 100 bucks on new tunes and only get 40?That shit don't fit like a dog's dick in knat booty.

Trust me,I just don't fo house sets.There are plenty of cats who get 2 cd players and some house speakers and they are now dj's.Those are the cats who are messing it up for mobile jocks.I have taken a low paying gig,mainly because I may have eeded the loot,9 times out of ten,I physically got jipped.I put in too much work for so little profit.I will turn down a set in a minute if folks don't wanna come right.

I always tell folks,"You want a hundred dollar dj,I can refer you to one,or do you want a professional?"

A following has nothing to do with business sense.I wish I would have known half of the stuff I know now,when I was first starting out.

Look at those white cats in the burbs who do gigs in tuxes.They get upwards to 1500 for a few hours.So why in the hell can't I get 500 for a 4 hour gig?

Never sell ya self cheap.I have done guest spots for free and for hire.It depends on the situation.I have had to turn some folks down because they think that if you do a freebie for someone,that's how you operate.Not true.

Following?I ain't no big name cat.I just play records.

[falko]

tsk tsk tsk...

blaming "free DJs" for the demise of anything is silly. the true problem is that MOST DJs, old and new, paid and unpaid, are not worth paying to hear!

"Free DJs" are not hurting francois k or joe claussell or louie vega or timmy regisford. free DJs are only really hurting mediocre DJs who people didn't value to begin with...

face it, most people just don't care that much, and would be just as happy with a jukebox as with a DJ...

[vinny from the Burgh]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Even as a newbie DJ I always made sure I got paid properly.

You want exposure? Hand out mix cds, bust your ass by making connects, take advantage of the internet, and maybe throw your own party or start your own radio program. Anything other than playing yourself and enabling shifty promoters and venue owners to take advantage of you. I alway pay my djs, I never used that bullshit "exposure" line on anybody.

FYI, I finally got paid by Boom! that is right you gotta buy records, equipment, if you don't drive cab fare, not to mention the fact if you work gotta take time off. not sayin that I am gettin paid like I want, but I am going to get some compensation. Yuji you say you love the music, everyone does that took up the hobby, but you need to get something to keep your art going.

[uzibee]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]you just described my home town. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Tony

[Huey P. Freeman]

Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Big Paul Y'all!!:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]I feel you for real!! </font>[/QUOTE]I'd have to disagree. It doesn't hurt the art at all. And as far as newbie Djs Donger, Jamie and Paul you were all once newbie Djs so that doesn't mean anything. I have great respect for all three of you guys but I have to disagree. To me it's no different that a band playing a club for free to get exposure. Once they have a following then they can start charging. It doesn't hurt other bands or stop other bands from making money. In other words a "newbie Dj" spinning for free doesn't hurt you guys. You all are in demand because of your skills and following. So you still get paid. </font>[/QUOTE]C'mon dude.I did my share of sets back then and I still charged and got paid.I was not that geeked to do a set where I would not make any money.Why spend over 100 bucks on new tunes and only get 40?That shit don't fit like a dog's dick in knat booty.

Trust me,I just don't fo house sets.There are plenty of cats who get 2 cd players and some house speakers and they are now dj's.Those are the cats who are messing it up for mobile jocks.I have taken a low paying gig,mainly because I may have eeded the loot,9 times out of ten,I physically got jipped.I put in too much work for so little profit.I will turn down a set in a minute if folks don't wanna come right.

I always tell folks,"You want a hundred dollar dj,I can refer you to one,or do you want a professional?"

A following has nothing to do with business sense.I wish I would have known half of the stuff I know now,when I was first starting out.

Look at those white cats in the burbs who do gigs in tuxes.They get upwards to 1500 for a few hours.So why in the hell can't I get 500 for a 4 hour gig?

Never sell ya self cheap.I have done guest spots for free and for hire.It depends on the situation.I have had to turn some folks down because they think that if you do a freebie for someone,that's how you operate.Not true.

Following?I ain't no big name cat.I just play records. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't get me wrong I'm not talking about doing a six hour set for free. I was speaking more about guest spots than anything else. I should have been more clear. People come to the basement to hear you bring the heat. I'd call that a following. graemlins/beerchug.gif

[The Donger]

Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
Look at those white cats in the burbs who do gigs in tuxes.They get upwards to 1500 for a few hours.So why in the hell can't I get 500 for a 4 hour gig?

Hahahaha, cause you don't hand out Hoola Hoops and Grease jackets, and lead the Electric Slide and shit!

[däp]

Originally posted by falko:
tsk tsk tsk...

blaming "free DJs" for the demise of anything is silly. the true problem is that MOST DJs, old and new, paid and unpaid, are not worth paying to hear!

"Free DJs" are not hurting francois k or joe claussell or louie vega or timmy regisford. free DJs are only really hurting mediocre DJs who people didn't value to begin with...

face it, most people just don't care that much, and would be just as happy with a jukebox as with a DJ... agreed. playing for free screws things up for those of us trying to get paid. get something damnit!

on the other hand, you have "whack" artists in every artform. bad art does not make good art bad. i have found that club owners/managers only care about one thing, money. money first, artform last.

if you want events with artistic ingegrity, you have to make it happen even if it means forgoing the big bucks in the "short" term. don't get that twisted with doing shit for free. i don't play spots where (a) there's no money and (b) i can't do my thing.

play good music and the true heads will come... eventually.

[ June 11, 2003, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: torin ]

[simon b]

Originally posted by torin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by falko:
tsk tsk tsk...

blaming "free DJs" for the demise of anything is silly. the true problem is that MOST DJs, old and new, paid and unpaid, are not worth paying to hear!

"Free DJs" are not hurting francois k or joe claussell or louie vega or timmy regisford. free DJs are only really hurting mediocre DJs who people didn't value to begin with...

face it, most people just don't care that much, and would be just as happy with a jukebox as with a DJ... agreed. playing for free screws things up for those of us trying to get paid. get something damnit!

on the other hand, you have "whack" artists in every artform. bad art does not make good art bad. i have found that club owners/managers only care about one thing, money. money first, artform last.

if you want events with artistic ingegrity, you have to make it happen even if it means forgoing the big bucks in the "short" term. don't get that twisted with doing shit for free. i don't play spots where (a) there's no money and (b) i can't do my thing.

play good music and the true heads will come... eventually. </font>[/QUOTE]That's a good point. It's so easy to blame others for your own shortcomings.

Taking responsibility and doing something for yourself, "putting your money where your mouth is" so to speak, takes balls.

[TAD]

Originally posted by uzibee:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by torin:
can it hurt the artform? no. can it hurt the business? absolutely. It has already hurt the art.

All these wack newbies suck dick to get free gigs and "fame" from this shit, now you have a city full of wack djs playing all over town cause of promoters/venue managers that have been taking advantage of this shit for some time now.

Now the club goers and new generation of club kids accept this shit as the standard and can't even tell the difference between an artist and a crap jockey cause they aren't schooled on this shit. Most djs around town aren't even "listened" too anymore, they are just playing background music while trendsters talk smack and do coke, unless it's a hip-hop DJ who is just playing the hits at a party where it seems cutting doubles and riding accapellas over different instrumentals is almost frowned upon nowadays.

Now skills mean nothing, and a dj that comes with thier own perspective and flavor doesn't even get appreciated, unless it's by the 5 "heads" left that don't even go out anymore anyway cause thier sick of hearing shit djs. SO don't expect to see the "art" side progress much in NYC at least, it is just dying out. The future looks grim. We will just be the few ninjas practicing our art...

Thanks shit djs and shit promoters for ruining house music. </font>[/QUOTE]you just described my home town. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks Tony </font>[/QUOTE]for what??

is this what i have to resort to to get your attention?? answer your damn voice mail!!!!

[simon b]

---

[ June 11, 2003, 03:05 PM: Message edited by: simon b ]

[SENSE MGMT]

90 percent of you DJs don't have a following or a name that has pull. If your'e getting paid it's usually cus your presence brings in people who bring revenue to the promoter or club. You should be lucky your'e getting paid. If you wanna play for free that is your decision and you are not hurting the market whatsoever. Chances are your'e playing for free cus noone will pay you cus you have nothing to offer in sense of bringing in these people who bring in revenue. Than you are doing it as a hobby rather than profession. Nothing wrong with that. But to expect people to pay you when you have nothing to offer is ridiculous. DJ's don't get paid because of the quality of their set's, they get paid cus they get people in the joint. When they play horrible set's than that usually means that the crowd won't come back for more and thus he doesn't have the pull he did at his initial gig and thus won't get paid in that environment again. Works the same way for local small-time lounge and bar DJs also which also tend to be promoters. That's why DJ's will never get anywhere unless they make a name as a producer. The only DJs who made it strictly as DJs are people who've been doing it for over a decade. It's 2003 wake up. Make some tracks...that's your only chance sadly.

[ June 11, 2003, 03:13 PM: Message edited by: Sense Productions ]

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Sense Productions:
But to expect people to pay you when you have nothing to offer is ridiculous. Have nothing to offer? It's called good music and moving your crowd so they come back.

Your statements are ridiculous. It's the promoters job to pack the joint, not the DJ. When the DJ gets so big that they draw a crowd, that's even better, and makes your job not much more than giving a venue a $ cut, and printing flyers. In the meantime stop being lazy and you do your job as a real promoter should and pack the ****ing joint.


FYI, I am also a promoter and I pay ALL my djs.

Stop being so cheap.

[SENSE MGMT]

Ohh I pay my DJs. I just don't book DJs who have nothing to offer in pull.

[vinny from the Burgh]

Ghost I agree with you about the promoter trying to fill the joint, BUT it is the jocks responsibility to promote where he is playing too. Now here in the Burgh Sunday night is the best night for any jock to get paid in this city if he simply gets motivated to promote for the night he is playing. not sayin that you will make $300 but the whole door goes to the people providing the music. You should get paid though, even if you were on a lineup with Humphries, or Knuckles, and played first. Too many dj's don't get motivated to let people know where their next gig is. Not only that we all expect people to just be there. It DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT!!! You have to be persistent with that shit.

[The Donger]

You are off topic now.

The thread is about how these shitty djs that play for free have a negative impact on the whole progression of the art of dj'ing.

[vinny from the Burgh]

well in that case if you promote music that does not flow right you usually won't keep a crowd.

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by Sense Productions:
90 percent of you DJs don't have a following or a name that has pull. If your'e getting paid it's usually cus your presence brings in people who bring revenue to the promoter or club. You should be lucky your'e getting paid. If you wanna play for free that is your decision and you are not hurting the market whatsoever. Chances are your'e playing for free cus noone will pay you cus you have nothing to offer in sense of bringing in these people who bring in revenue. Than you are doing it as a hobby rather than profession. Nothing wrong with that. But to expect people to pay you when you have nothing to offer is ridiculous. DJ's don't get paid because of the quality of their set's, they get paid cus they get people in the joint. When they play horrible set's than that usually means that the crowd won't come back for more and thus he doesn't have the pull he did at his initial gig and thus won't get paid in that environment again. Works the same way for local small-time lounge and bar DJs also which also tend to be promoters. That's why DJ's will never get anywhere unless they make a name as a producer. The only DJs who made it strictly as DJs are people who've been doing it for over a decade. It's 2003 wake up. Make some tracks...that's your only chance sadly. Blah blah blah.

That's a narrow perspective on what makes a night work. We're not talking about getting famous, just paid fair money. Where I'm from 98% of the patrons have never heard of Louie Vega or any DJ's for that matter. But they know what they will dance to and they know good house music now that we've been beating into them for ten years.

Getting people in the door with a famous name is not the entire game. You have to keep them or they walk out and go next door. People walk out on big names when they are sucking too. A $5 cover charge is not something they'll cry over. The clubs make their money off the bar. I'd like to see someone try and promote that way here. You'd be better off to offer a free Coors hat.

Seems it's only the working DJ's who know that Donger's comments are correct.

[Cheddar]

Originally posted by Sense Productions:
90 percent of you DJs don't have a following or a name that has pull. If your'e getting paid it's usually cus your presence brings in people who bring revenue to the promoter or club. You should be lucky your'e getting paid. If you wanna play for free that is your decision and you are not hurting the market whatsoever. Chances are your'e playing for free cus noone will pay you cus you have nothing to offer in sense of bringing in these people who bring in revenue. Than you are doing it as a hobby rather than profession. Nothing wrong with that. But to expect people to pay you when you have nothing to offer is ridiculous. DJ's don't get paid because of the quality of their set's, they get paid cus they get people in the joint. When they play horrible set's than that usually means that the crowd won't come back for more and thus he doesn't have the pull he did at his initial gig and thus won't get paid in that environment again. Works the same way for local small-time lounge and bar DJs also which also tend to be promoters. That's why DJ's will never get anywhere unless they make a name as a producer. The only DJs who made it strictly as DJs are people who've been doing it for over a decade. It's 2003 wake up. Make some tracks...that's your only chance sadly. Spoken like a true business man who knows not much about what this topic is about. Here is a tip...in accordance with your statement...find out what your crowd likes to hear and cut the DJS outta the equation.

[SENSE MGMT]

Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Sense Productions:
90 percent of you DJs don't have a following or a name that has pull. If your'e getting paid it's usually cus your presence brings in people who bring revenue to the promoter or club. You should be lucky your'e getting paid. If you wanna play for free that is your decision and you are not hurting the market whatsoever. Chances are your'e playing for free cus noone will pay you cus you have nothing to offer in sense of bringing in these people who bring in revenue. Than you are doing it as a hobby rather than profession. Nothing wrong with that. But to expect people to pay you when you have nothing to offer is ridiculous. DJ's don't get paid because of the quality of their set's, they get paid cus they get people in the joint. When they play horrible set's than that usually means that the crowd won't come back for more and thus he doesn't have the pull he did at his initial gig and thus won't get paid in that environment again. Works the same way for local small-time lounge and bar DJs also which also tend to be promoters. That's why DJ's will never get anywhere unless they make a name as a producer. The only DJs who made it strictly as DJs are people who've been doing it for over a decade. It's 2003 wake up. Make some tracks...that's your only chance sadly. Blah blah blah.

That's a narrow perspective on what makes a night work. We're not talking about getting famous, just paid fair money. Where I'm from 98% of the patrons have never heard of Louie Vega or any DJ's for that matter. But they know what they will dance to and they know good house music now that we've been beating into them for ten years.

Getting people in the door with a famous name is not the entire game. You have to keep them or they walk out and go next door. People walk out on big names when they are sucking too. A $5 cover charge is not something they'll cry over. The clubs make their money off the bar. I'd like to see someone try and promote that way here. You'd be better off to offer a free Coors hat.

Seems it's only the working DJ's who know that Donger's comments are correct. </font>[/QUOTE]If your'e speaking from a local DJs perspective than you need to have a loyal fan base following that follows you wherever you go (Psycho Bitch n Teri BRistol for example). Still has nothing to do with the quality of your sets. Your marketability is what get's you there, The quality of your sets are what keep you and them there.

[richierich]

Big names don't mean shit. Most of the times the promoters assume that because it's a big name people will come.. not true... we had Tony Humphries at Transit... guess what maybe 75 people. I have played for more people than that and I was the headliner. Get off that big name shit we in Chicago don't really care(most of the time)because we got no names that are just as dope. This is why no name jocks can't get gigs because y'all are stuck on this big name shit and no you don't have to have a track out to get pub ( it don't hurt)People just want to party to good music and big names are not the only ones that have good music. As far as being lucky to get paid.. you ask a DJ to spin and he's not supposed to get paid... find someone else. I aint been spinning for a long time but I got paid for my very first gig so why stop now. If i want to play for free I'll play at home. You should be lucky someone wants to do your party period. This aint no charity. And it is all about quality... what are you listening to people come because of quality not hype.. promoter need to learn this.. it starts with the music.. everything else is add on. You should just get a jukebox!! I f we didn't have shit to offer then you shouldn't be asking.. I know you can just hire a big name well i don't hear big names i hear music,, music, music!!!! Next time you get a big name i can get a no name that will beat it just as hard.. you gotta be kidding me. I don't care who it is especially if he aint no Chicago jock..You need to do your homework.. we got talent here baby... Chicago!!! And you don't have to have been playing for a decade to be a good jock that rocks a party....Where do you get this Idea from..please!! And lastly a lot of these people that make tracks are not necessarily good DJ'S and I've been to a lot of these type of parties and was truely underwhelmed. Good producer does not always mean good jock.. learn dude learn.. we are about the music not the person. Psycho Bitch, Terri Brystol I don't even anyone that listens to them.. and I am a vet on this scene.. who is your target audience anyways?? Oh yeah you knw your shit.. maybe we are two different house scenes... I don't do raves!!

[ June 12, 2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

[däp]

Originally posted by Sense Productions:
If your'e speaking from a local DJs perspective than you need to have a loyal fan base following that follows you wherever you go (Psycho Bitch n Teri BRistol for example).how'd they get this following (rhetorical)?


Originally posted by Sense Productions:
Still has nothing to do with the quality of your sets. Your marketability is what get's you there, The quality of your sets are what keep you and them there. this sounds like double talk. are you saying there needs to be a good combination of marketing and quality sets? http://deephousepage.com/smilies/conf40.gif i think that goes without saying.

maybe the better question would've been does dj'ing for free hurt this business? that depends on several factors, to which some have already spoken.

[ June 12, 2003, 03:44 PM: Message edited by: torin ]

[SENSE MGMT]

Originally posted by richierich:
Big names don't mean shit. Most of the times the promoters assume that because it's a big name people will come.. not true... we had Tony Humphries at Transit... guess what maybe 75 people. I have played for more people than that and I was the headliner. Get off that big name shit we in Chicago don't really care(most of the time)because we got no names that are just as dope. This is why no name jocks can't get gigs because y'all are stuck on this big name shit and no you don't have to have a track out to get pub ( it don't hurt)People just want to party to good music and big names are not the only ones that have good music. As far as being lucky to get paid.. you ask a DJ to spin and he's not supposed to get paid... find someone else. I aint been spinning for a long time but I got paid for my very first gig so why stop now. If i want to play for free I'll play at home. You should be lucky someone wants to do your party period. This aint no charity. And it is all about quality... what are you listening to people come because of quality not hype.. promoter need to learn this.. it starts with the music.. everything else is add on. You should just get a jukebox!! I f we didn't have shit to offer then you shouldn't be asking.. I know you can just hire a big name well i don't hear big names i hear music,, music, music!!!! Next time you get a big name i can get a no name that will beat it just as hard.. you gotta be kidding me. I don't care who it is especially if he aint no Chicago jock..You need to do your homework.. we got talent here baby... Chicago!!! And you don't have to have been playing for a decade to be a good jock that rocks a party....Where do you get this Idea from..please Where do I get these ideas? From trial and error and doing the business side of the music biz. IT takes a long time to build up an international or national reputation for just being a DJ. I never said it takes a decade to be a good DJ, it takes over a decade to build a REPUTATION amongst the DJ circuit on a global scale. Hell you could of started spinning a year ago and have a knack for it and be one of the better DJs in the world. Doesn't mean your'e gonna get paid for it unless you market yourself. Let you in on a little secret, most club patrons don't have a clue who Timmy Regisford is.

As for your Tony Humphries thing that could maybe be because of bad promotions and that at the moment people aren't too excited to see him and spend their hard earned cash. Their are like a hundred factors that go into a show doing well or not and for you to say it's either this or that is naive.

For instance a few years back I flew in Marshall Jefferson. It was his first appearance in over 4 years. I drew in 400 people through the door. WORST numbers I have ever done ever!!! The reason why it didn't do so well was because I brought him to a "glam" club. A club where people don't really care for the music and are there to look pretty. That was because it was the only venue I could strike a deal with at the time. I was new to the club markets and wasn't part of the politics yet, where now I tend to be able to work a deal with most big clubs for a Fri or Sat which is typically like pulling teeth. It was the only choice I had and I took it and almost broke even(YOu know how much flights are from the UK?). So I'm just giving an example of why certain shows don't go off- venues that don't specifically target your crowd and maximize your exposure. Some may even detour your crowd as my situation. I brought kevin Saunderson to Transit and we pulled 800 people whereas Pure just recently did the same thing and from what I heard it was empty.

Now I bet you the night Tony played at Smartbar there were over 75 people there! Why is that? Because the people who go to Smartbar are loyal house followers. So they probably check periodically on their website to see who playing their and betcha if their a Smartbar patron they'll love Tony Humphries and will therefore go there especially since their regulars and feel comfortable there. That's another thing people sometimes like what's comfortable.

There are so many factors that come into play and for me to list them all ...well I would have to write a book. But it does come down to name of BIG DJ and then a fine balance with venue, promotions, ticket prices, etc. So alot of it is hype. Prove me wrong.

BTW their are certain names that are no-brainers/garaunteed draws such as Richie Hawtin and that's why they get MUCHO $$$. The higher fees just means higher probabilities of a packed house and less worries. And BTW house is a slowly dieing market and that's why deep house DJ's don't make nearly as much as Techno DJ's who don't make nearly as much as Progressive DJ's. Trance was the big thing a couple years back and man some of these guys were making crazy amounts of cash, but thank god it was just a fad.

[SENSE MGMT]

And I'd like to add that if you do a house event and get a packed house of 800+ people, only 3-400 of those people are gonna have a clue who the DJ is. The rest are gonna be there cus they heard it was gonna be a good show, their friends are going, or for the simple fact that the name sounds really familiar so he's gotta be good.

[JMNYC]

What really "hurts this art" is that too many people fantasize about making a living doing it when in reality there are so few opportunities to really do so. 80% of the quality DJs out there have real jobs and have accepted the fact that they're probably not going to make David Morales-type money any time soon, if ever (although the fantasies abound). I had to learn this the hard way.

Don't get me wrong - I could certainly use the dough, HOWEVER occasionally playing for free has gotten me lots of paying gigs later, so it depends on the possiblity of future payoff, too.

Since there are very few parties these days (at least in NYC) that can AFFORD to pay me what I'm worth, and since I want to play, I make sacrifices. On top of that, no amount of money can equal the high of playing for an appreciative audience.

However - if the party is OBVIOUSLY making money at the door and the bar, and they don't want to pay me appropriately, I generally won't do it for free. Why do the work for someone else's financial gain if I could do the party myself and put some coin in my own pocket? At least put something in my pocket as a sign of good faith and appreciation - a "token" payment, car fare, something.

If you really want me to play your party, you'll at least make it pain-free by sorting out my transportation, drinks, etc. If you're in it for the love (not the money), then I can be too... just don't insult me. This is how I try to treat our guests at Chateau Noir (although admittedly some nights I'm more up to it than others).

If you want me to travel, I have to be getting paid - it AT LEAST has to be an all-expenses paid trip and some ca$h, and if I'm taking time off from work, I have to be properly compensated for that, too.

In the end, I look at it like this ... when I die, will people at my memorial service say "Jon really made a lot of money in this business" or will they say "Jon really knew how to turn me out"? I know which I'd rather hear, and I make individual decisions based on that.

Which way would you rather be remembered?

There are lots of wedding DJs that make 6 figures a year playing the Macarena for an appreciative audience. I am not one of them, nor do I want to be. Been there, done that. Made lots of money and didn't even want to SEE my turntables afterwards. My love for the music was infringed upon by what I did to make money. I felt like a whore.

By choosing to set higher musical standards (i.e., no requests, no apologies, no cheese) I am consiously deciding that musical integrity is more important to me than the money. In doing so, I also sacrifice the right to complain about how unprofitable it is to play great parties. Guess what? The crowd sees this. Hence, I have played pretty much every week for an appreciative room for the last several years. I may not have made a fortune off it, but I have more than recouped my initial investment and far more importantly have built a (albiet small) following and left a mark.

So, although I feel the pain of the underpaid-or-unpaid DJ (trust me!) I think most of you are barking up the wrong tree here. "Underground" usually also means non-profitable. Either get over it or do what YOUR IDOL BUDDY LOVE has done - make a conscious decision to go after the dough and leave the musically-educated minorities to those who have a hard-on for a dancefloor full of deeper dancers who generally don't spend alot on drinks, pay at the door or dress up to go out. He and I had a great discussion about this online and we both acknowledged our choices - there's no shame in making decisions based on your ultimate goals.

I feel 100x richer playing what I want to for (musically intelligent) people who want to hear it (for little or no $$) than I did playing what the (musically ignorant) people wanted to hear (for lotsa $$). It is unfortunate that the pay scale is the exact inverse of the musical intelligence scale, but that's a topic for another thread.

[richierich]

No disrespect but I think that we are on different scenes when it comes to music.. it's all good though.. the people that I know have definitely heard of Timmy Regisford but not the people that you mentioned.

[SENSE MGMT]

The people you know are not the clubbing majority and do not fill a club. Otherwise your Tony Humphries show would have been packed with YOUR friends. When I was speaking I was talking about the whole scene. I know good music and appreciate good music. I am educated on the music. But so few of us are and if you wanna pack the house you gotta look outside of the box and look for what appeals to the mainstream, not just your peeps. I try to do so while finding a good balance between that and also maintaining credibility in all the shows I do. Get my point?

[KragShot]

Originally posted by ivanjb:
I agree completely. In my area the club owners are aware that they can hire some new jack kid with 2 crates for $50 a night or even for free and he will be their puppet. We used to have control and get paid what we deserved but that was ten years ago. They hire the dj's that play radio stuff now and in turn get free radio ad spots.

DJ's have to set pay standards and stick to them. That means denying gigs for $50 a night or that don't give you a fair deal. I start a new weekly gig tomorrow night and we've managed to get the whole door. That's nice but it leaves promotion up to us as well. We'll see. I remember mid 90's getting $100 an hour and the club did all promotions and they were so behind us. Now they treat us like bus boys and the lack of management respect has a trickle down effect. From the managers to the bartenders to the bouncers to the patrons. [/QB][/QUOTE]

We have to examine the source of the problem before we can come up with a solution.

Consider this; the price of the technology has dropped to a point where anyone can buy a set of 1200s or similar tables and start spinning. Heck, CD decks cost even less. Then we have to hold the industry itself to blame, with their "DJ-in-a-box" kits. So, now any kid with a hankering to become a "wannabe DJ" can plead with mom and dad and get one of these rigs for Christmas, a birthday or whatever. They only cost a little bit more than an X-Box or a PS2 (at the time of release).

Musicmaking itself is no longer restricted to the realm of the traditionally trained musician. Any kid with a PC and access to Kazaa can start making music and playing his own stuff for the party that night.

DJing itself, is no longer limited to the inner city. The kids in the suburbs are getting (more like "have gotten") equipment and discovering the art. In addition, there are countless websites that give a step-by-step breakdown in how to beatmatch, blend, cut and nearly every other patented DJ trick. Personally, I blame this on the hubris that we as DJs have fostered. We've forgotten how to hustle and how to be hungry. Now, there's a new breed on the scene and they're willing to sing for their supper and cut deals to get into the venues to be able to perform.

Speaking of the venues, lets look at Chicago as an example. 70% of the clubs are in the suburbs now. The big money joints are in Elgin, Schaumburg, and other suburbs. Fewer and fewer club goers are coming into Chicago-proper to party. So, the remaining clubs in the city get the bulk of the people who live in the city as patrons as opposed to the 80s and 90s when you had a constant suburban influx to the inner city functions. What this means is while the number of clubs have not dropped, the DJs who are in the inner city have to scramble harder to keep active with fewer clubs or they have to commute to the suburbs, and compete with the new crop of DJs that have grown there, who are more likely to get the job in their home turf than the inner city DJ.

Finally, we have to look at the art itself (I've said this enough so it should become a mantra); DJing is no longer about playing popular records for a crowd. It has become a performance artform. Now considering that, look at the number of people in the world who write, paint, draw, play music, sing, sculpt, etc...for a living. The market is starting to become saturated.

So, now that we see what has happened to the art, we can look at possible solutions, right?

There is one way that these standards that have been suggested would be enforced and that way is through organization (spelled u-n-i-o-n).

(Personally, I thought that Mobile DJs were supposed to be part of the musicians union...am I off with this thought?)

You have to ask yourself several questions regarding this idea before you proceed further.

1: When is it okay to play for free?
a) Would you do it for a friend or relative? And if you would, aren't you taking food out of the mouth of another DJ when your relative would be willing to pay otherwise?

b)If you are affiliated with an organization and they approach you to do a set for a function that they are holding and because you are with the organization they expect you to waive your fee, do you do it (waive the fee and spin) or do you cite conflict of interest and ask them to hire another DJ?

2: What is the definition of pay (or compensation for services rendered)?

a): Are we going to develop a scale (pay rate per hour)?

b): What about a definition of non-monetary compensation? How much of something should we be expected to get to compensate us for pay?

3): What will we do about people who do not follow the standards that we have set forth?

This is in regards to:
a) Promoters/venues that refuse to comply with the standards of pay and conduct.
b) DJs who do not support the organization and who accept sub-standard pay and other things that we have said that are not acceptable.

These are just a few that came to mind when I wrote this post.

The benefits of organization are many (these are just a few):

-Bargaining strength based upon numbers (the ability to approach a given venue and negotiate a decent rate of pay for a member DJ)
-An organized standard of compentence and skill based upon a formalized training format (all of our DJs will be better than the average bedroom DJs who are taking the jobs from us)
-A general increase in the quality of performing DJs and events.

Now, there are several problems with this idea. One, the venue owners and promoters can probably laugh this off and just hire these "no talent shits" that you are speaking of, leaving us in the cold unless we come up with a way to bring them around to our way of thinking.

Two, the only way that this will truly work is if we can get several truly famous DJs (actually nearly all of them) to get onboard. Otherwise, without them lending credibility to the idea, we might as well be pissing in the wind.

Now, I might be off-base with this idea, but I will say this; whatever we do to combat this, it has to be done as a group. Individually, we can't do much of anything.

In short, we either have to take an active role in changing our future to the way we want it or we can stand on the sidelines, whine and see it changed for us.

Now, I'll read the rest of this thread and see what else has been mentioned.

KragShot

[ June 12, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: KragShot ]

[Discogoddess]

@Sense and others: Don't mean to hijack the thread, but can you shed light on why promoters seem to be overlooking a potentially large audience in the 27+ crowd that used to get their jack on, and would love to hang out a bit? I have so many friends who I've turned on to this site (including....gasp....pretty women!), and several parties, who had absolutely no idea that there even IS still a house scene! Until someone clued me in earlier this year, I fell into this category as well.

A lot of professionals with family, work and other responsibilities would LOVE to come out to party, but they just don't know about the events. No, maybe they won't come every single week (or on Sundays, Mondays, Tuesdays), but if they know in advance (so that they can get a babysitter, etc.), they will make the effort to come out.

I rarely ever see house/disco events promoted on city-alert.com, socialsteppers.com and def. not metromix.com. A lot of us old fogeys rely on sites like that, word of mouth, etc. cuz we're not hip to DHP. Also, if they don't know about party A, they def. won't be in attendence to get a plugger for parties B, C, D and F.

And yeah, they're gonna want to hear the singalong disco, but a good DJ can ease them into the new stuff with the remixes ("Say Yes" and that Jahiem song come to mind) and the disco/early house edits.

[ June 12, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: Discogoddess ]

[ivanjb]

I think the original topic is too relative to where you're playing to have a black and white answer. "djs, does playing for free hurt this art? "

Example -

I'm doing a friend's wedding on Saturday. For free (as a gift). Dragging the PA down and all. I don't see anything wrong with that. It will probably turn people on to the art.

That's different than what I'm doing tonight. Kicking off a weekly event at a big but dark and dirty old club. The only club in town that gives us respect and lets us make the rules. We get the whole door and set the price. And we have left the useless idiot promoters out of the loop. One of our friends will join us on the decks from time to time and we will PAY him. In this case it's important to make sure you get paid or djing in general will lose it's respect as a job in these clubs.

I think a better thread might be "Does promotion and hype and greedy venues ruin this art"

Peace

[SENSE MGMT]

Originally posted by ivanjb:
I think the original topic is too relative to where you're playing to have a black and white answer. "djs, does playing for free hurt this art? "

Example -

I'm doing a friend's wedding on Saturday. For free (as a gift). Dragging the PA down and all. I don't see anything wrong with that. It will probably turn people on to the art.

That's different than what I'm doing tonight. Kicking off a weekly event at a big but dark and dirty old club. The only club in town that gives us respect and lets us make the rules. We get the whole door and set the price. And we have left the useless idiot promoters out of the loop. One of our friends will join us on the decks from time to time and we will PAY him. In this case it's important to make sure you get paid or djing in general will lose it's respect as a job in these clubs.

I think a better thread might be "Does promotion and hype and greedy venues ruin this art"

Peace Good point.

[MCarnet]

Donger, KragShot, JMNYC great posts!

I charge fairly for my services, and when I do play free shows I make sure that I am compensated in some way...be it drinks or tickets for my friends etc...

Having said that, there is a venue that myself and a local live house band played at every friday night for free for about three months. We had to bring our own decks, and do our own promotion for the night. They gave us the door...which never really turned out to be much because the crowds that we did have were usually people still hanging out from the restaraunt side of the venue. They first offered us a drink tab of 100 bucks, then it cut it back to 75, then to 50, then finally we only got 12 drink tickets for 6 people to share. I found it very insulting at first, there I was, busting my ass every friday night putting wear on my equipment and not getting any pay for it, and my friends were out rollerskating!

But, I then started to consider that the clubs business wasn't picking up,I feel the reasons being bad promotional efforts (on their part) and the location of the club being in a up-and-coming area of the city. The talent was there, we always came correct with good music and the small crowds that did come always had a great time. So, it was hard for me to keep justifying it to myself. I ended up not spinning there anymore and instead just running sound for the band...which was worthwhile because I was actually learning something while I was behind the sound board.

Since then, I have had a chance to speak to the owners of the venue and explain the way I felt about the whole thing, and to my surprise they were apollogetic and sympathetic. This helped aleviate my frustration, because they did acknowledge and understand the necessity to pay the talent performing in their venue. In the end I am happy that I helped them when they needed it, because I have friends and resources available to me now that I did not have before.

I added this to the thread because I was having the same conflicts that this thread discusses during that time. Did I feel like I was selling myself and the art short? While it was going on, yes, but now that it is over and I feel like I contributed to the growth of the venue and was fairly compensated in return, no.

[ June 12, 2003, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Marcus A ]

[Red D]

Originally posted by Sense Productions:
There are so many factors that come into play and for me to list them all ...well I would have to write a book. But it does come down to name of BIG DJ and then a fine balance with venue, promotions, ticket prices, etc. So alot of it is hype. Prove me wrong.
[/QB]You're right, there are many factors, and that's why the big names theory is not the only road to a full house. It all depends on how you promote your night in the first place. I've been doing nights for almost 10 years now, and some 5 years ago we started doing a night where we insisted on the name and atmosphere of the night, and quickly we became known for that: good music, nice people, superb atmosphere. We've had big names (cause we liked their music) but they do not draw more people than our unknown jocks. It's all a matter of how you bring your product to the people, and that means there are too many factors to have a 'sure-fire method' for throwing successful nights.

RD