The 50 CENT PHENOMENON, RAP'S CLIMATE OF ANIMOSITY & THE PIMPING OF BLACK DEATH IN...

[Shannon]

Words from Chuck D:
The 50 CENT PHENOMENON, RAP'S CLIMATE OF ANIMOSITY & THE PIMPING OF BLACK DEATH IN AMERIKKKA
posted: March 08, 2003

Sitting here in the Pittsburgh Airport, going thru post 911 security checks I can't help but wonder how INTERDOPE RECORDS prez JIMMY IODINE sleeps at night. With the latest 50 CENT "GET RICH OR DIE TRYING" phenomenon sweeping the nation, again I'm amazed at the selling power of black death and the
masters who pimp it. There's a lot of blood in IODINE'S bank just as BRYAN TURNIP, formerly of CALIFORNIA RAISIN, launched gangsta turned PRIORITIZE RECORDS wayyy back in the 90s, courtesy of the west coast. I actually dug 50 CENTS' original take on 'fake gangstas' and the idea of bringing some cats down to the reality of the harshness of the 'real streets' instead of studio imagery. As I dug NWA's early rebellious take on how a brother couldn't get ahead in society. But in the case of the swirl around 50 I can't even say it's entirely his fault, that his take on the road to rap is along the BIGGIE "Born to die" steez.

It's the usual suspects that cash in at the end, that resonate the statement of the amazing profit of black death. There are glaring facts about this contribution to this millennium cointelpro of the rap game. From DJ SCOTT
LAROCK to JAMMASTER JAY and everyone KILLED in between there hasn't been a murderer found yet. Number two, in the case of TUPAC selling 5 million records while living and at least 30 million in his death. The case of the white exec hiring and doing business with the negro so he can create, recreate, cultivate, endorse then sell niggers doin 'niggativity' has never been more apparent. These execs would never do business with a 'black man', whereas a black man would draw a line on what would be said about his people. A man would tell another man that he couldn't compromise a people for the sake of some false god named 'profit' and his son named 'bottom line'. The charge to the top of suspicious chart is paralleled at the same time by R KELLY who again has found love from peeps.

The picture drawn here is that anything can be said and done against black people, and the damage that appears to be self inflicted is none the less assisted by cats lurking in the shadows. The blood banks are spilling over at this time as it's the easy way out to cover the fact that 50 has already been shot at point blank range, so that's the story that INTERDOPE'S marketing team sharply rolls and
promotes their head to. Now everywhere he goes it's covered the fact that he sleeps in a bulletproof vest and there are ample heapings of bodyguards in surround sound.

It brings to question...what makes a cat hate another brother who looks and talks just like him whereas they never even met? Radio, hype and video talk to all folks on behalf of the perceived and conceived opinion of black
people, masterminded by the thought of 'the streets'. Problem is that this NY-LA pimp biz mentality didn't ask ALL the streets, they're telling and programming them. At the tail end of those same streets are the businesses
of jail and death. They could care less about the streets in betwixt. The one-sided control of sepia images the past 10 years has the masses Pavlov-trained into actually thinking there's little wrong with being abused, like
the wife who gets repeatedly beat down by the man she still loves more with every ass whipping. The slave who proudly places his master's last name on his first after being whipped to say it, while not being able to spell it.
Trained to love the level and status of nigger granted by his master's ideology while daring all to challenge that love. Whereas the first 12 years of recorded rap reflected the love of hip hop, the artists rhymed love, spread love like BOB MARLEY and thus got love from the peeps. Rap was a passport to visit other hoods representing love in the words thus reconnecting the thought of 'FAM' aka family.

Now the family for rappers is the corporate pimped pseudo-record companies they spit for. Many no longer rhyme for the people they cointelpro against the folk. The radio stations and Viacom help pour the verbal sewage of self hate back at us, thus endorsing little option for 50 CENT to take. The fact is not whether his guns are bigger than little BOW WOW, but the fact of it can be pointed directly at someone in his family. I don©ˆt want that cat to be a bigger target than he claims to be. Let's hope that 50 has a long career and a greatest hits record while he's living, rhyming about 'birthdays instead of death daze', and his black self doesn't add more red and green to JIMMY IODINE's notorious skull and bones INTERDOPE blood bank.

A real black man in this record biz would tell his staff and artists "no" when it comes to drawing a line regarding the same hood that they come from. The sellout hidden punks in this business shouldn't have been allowed to enter in the first place. Now the rap game at that level means diminishing returns. It's an opportunity for smart cats to get in the game now.

Whenever you stoop to the lowest common denominator for the sake of just money, you're bound to run into probs. Again you really can't measure a people's soul in a bottle. Our culture has to be weighed by the quality as well as the quantity, as well as the cost on getting there. I believe ALPO sells 2 million cans of dog food a month, you don't see the owner wearing a platinum dog food chain around his neck do you? And if you ain't got a dog...what the hell do the numbers mean to you?

People, we're in an economic recession on the edge of a war and possible depression. But I swear there are more people flocking to the movies than ever. Just peeped DAREDEVIL and the script had to be written by an 8th grader.

Called BUSTA RHYMES after some cats had shot up VIOLATOR MGMT offices and pumped 8 bullets into his unattended truck. He assured me he was cool and was being leery of all around him. When good cats like BUS get caught in the mix you know it's time to clean up. The truth is that real thugs are serving lengthy sentences, and those roaming the streets obviously don't know what's in store for them the rest of this decade. Jails are bigger businesses than ever, morphing into the new slavery and sweatshop systems. Convicted thugs will be making US products in-house at a penitentiary near you.

Well again I say I dig JAY Z's ability, but as a 30 plus man sometimes I'm baffled by him. The fact of having the half-white MID-SOUTH COLISEUM in MEMPHIS crowd yell 'my nigga' nationally on SHOWTIME a few miles from where DR MARTIN LUTHER KING was killed in 1968 while comparing himself to him can be confusing, but again read what I just wrote and judge for yourself. The cat is much smarter than that.

EMpTy V was at it again sending out false alarms to rappers across the nation to participate in a battle to see who would be the MTV MC. A disaster waiting to happen as it was designed in some boardroom up there. I ran into peeps that used their own money to fly in, sleeping on the streets etc. This amerikkkan idle sh*t has to stop fooling 'the masses into them asses'. People take this seriously so it must be done right. It reminded me of the
MOTOWN Talent search a few years back by ANDRE HORRAY where thousands of peeps actually thought they had a chance to be a star. In these times everyone wants to get 'put on', but with increasingly less information about this hustle people have little idea what they're actually getting put on to.

I request that this shady biz, as well as comprehension to other media and communication gets thoroughly taught and offered to 12th graders, but in the words of LENNON maybe I'm a dreamer.

FLAV, HANK SHOCKLEE, DOCTOR ANDRE BROWN DRE and myself were at the APOLLO uptown. PE received an award for revolutionary innovation, and that night I was also surprised to run into the legend himself, DJ EDDIE CHEBA. I was mind blown. This cat was an early influence for many, definitely myself. He came to see me speak. Damn. He was the one that sparked the whole thought of a rap record existing in the first place, promoting the thought of putting one out throughout the summer of 1979. To me it was inconceivable as I heard
him rock cuts like GOOD TIMES by CHIC and GQ. It was the idea that was followed up by KING TIM 3RD of THE FATBACK BAND in July 79, and SUGARHILL and then KURTIS BLOW. In fact the MERCURY RECORDS team had been on the quest of signing CHEBA but thought BLOW was the more marketable cat. It was a mindblower as I heard he was in FRANCE for years and he confirmed the rumor as we were sitting in the seats of the historic APOLLO.

Writer TOURE has a lot of nerve calling MIKE JAX a clown on national TV. Once again proving that the media will always draft one of us in sellout suit mode to dis. Again I ask where do cats like this get their qualifications to do such damage? After all this is the same guy who was telling folks he ruined PE with his scathing ROLLING STONES album review of MUSE. I can take it but I couldn't stand to see a cat that's never made music, or win a Pulitzer, say MIKE JAX music is wack.

Link: http://www.dirtydesign.net <http://www.dirtydesign.net/>

[D J 1 3 8]

As much as I love old PE, I think Chuck D is losing the plot; at least in this "essay" or whatever it is. He starts out talking about 50 Cent and seems to begin to make some profound points about the state of rap music, but he ends his entire statement with a bitter jab at someone who gave his record a bad review. This thing seriously lacks focus.

[The Donger]

Chuck D is a mess.

That 50 Cent and Jay-Z shit is hot.

[mhd]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Chuck D is a mess.

That 50 Cent and Jay-Z shit is hot. missing the point...again

[The Donger]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Chuck D is a mess.

That 50 Cent and Jay-Z shit is hot. missing the point...again </font>[/QUOTE]I confess, I didn't even read the thread.

I still stand behind the fact that Chuck D is a mess, and that the 50 Cent and Jay-Z shit hot.

[The Donger]

Wow, I just read it.

Chuck D is a mess.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Wow, I just read it.

Chuck D is a mess. That's what I'm saying, yo.

He's lost the plot, for real.

[darrow]

Ghost and DJ 138, do you see any valid points in some of the underlying themes of what Chuck D was getting at?

[Cheddar]

Well Chuck has a great point about the state of Hip Hop. He does take a stab at the writer and he shoulda left that out..but then it just goes to show you who gets heard..THAT WRITER.

[The Donger]

Whatever... hip-hop or not the music industry in general, as well as any big $ industry is always corrupt.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by darrow:
Ghost and DJ 138, do you see any valid points in some of the underlying themes of what Chuck D was getting at? I think he was starting to make some valid points, but he loses focus halfway through. I find his essay very scattered and muddled up with a lot of style and very little concrete substance (And believe me, you'll find no bigger PE fan than me, at least back in the day.) Nevertheless, I don't think you can read this and get anything succinct out of it. If he's going to bother writing some kind of essay and then making it some kind of press release, he should focus his thoughts to take advanatge of the platform he has. It reads to me like he's just rambling. Chuck can drop bombs when he wants to, but here, I think he missed the target.

[djmarbll]

Chuck D does have a point about comparing 50's album to Biggie's first. The "Ready to Die" theme is obvious. However, 50 has already been shot at nine time and survived. NO rapper in history has been shot that many times and still had a quadruple-platinum record out. 50 himself said that after he got shot, (partially due to his "How to Rob an Industry Nigga" track) his own family didn't even call him. N.Y. kept hating on him, even though he still did the D.J. Clue, Whoo Kid, and Kay Slay mixtapes. Now that 50 is signed to Shady/Aftermath and selling more records than any rap record out right now, "friends are falling from the sky (except for Ja Rule, J. Prince, and Suge Knight). 50's album is hot regardless. Jay-Z's Blueprint 2 is ok. It's not as cohesive as the first Blueprint, which is the best album Jay-Z has done since Reasonable Doubt.

[Cheddar]

Man you guys are seriously overlooking the msg.
The promotion of Black Death to the same place where Hip Hop originated...the Streets.
This type of msg will be perpetually buried by the bizness as well as transparent to the low level biz people and consumers. The MAN loves this...People glorifying death and fast money...hey this is a service to the MAN.

Who cry when India Arie didnt win one Grammy and Alicia Keys won them all??

[Koffy Brown]

Chuck D is on point rather or not he loses focus at the end of the article...50 has said in many interviews that the beef he creates with other artists is for publicity only. It's not real, but at the same time, what is he doing to help the state of hip hop? Not everyone understands that this is entertainment only...

Get Rich or Die Trying is an extremly dangerous proclamation to say the least

[darrow]

I admit total ignorance of 50cent and most hip hop.

What I found interesting and thought provoking was the notion (not necessarily an original one I'm sure) of the music corporation making a profit on a vibe that seems to promote black-on-black violence and negativity.

If it is the case that the above is true in a small or large way, I'm thinking it simply raises other questions...

- are black men in control of their image?

- what affect does the promotion of black-on-black violence have on our psyche and culture?

- Are we alarmed/disturbed in any numbers (large or small) at the images we see and consume? If not, why aren't we?

blah blah blah

[corwin]

Is this the same Chuck D that made the Cincinnati Reds cap de rigueur back in the day? Oh, the irony. Perhaps he was Marge Schott's Million Dollar Nigger.

Seriously though, while I'm happy that someone finally adressed the 50cent hype, Chuck's diatribe seemed fueled by bitterness. And that's unfortunate because the many valid points throughout the essay are overshadowed by his rage.

Who knows, years down the line 50cent may have many regrets about his current persona and it's marketing. We live. We learn. We progress. Surely, Chuck is not the same man that exploded on EMpTyV (the irony continues) after the release of Yo!Bum Rush the Show.

And besides, I knew many bourgie black folks back in college who cringed at the sight of Flav.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by darrow:
I admit total ignorance of 50cent and most hip hop.

What I found interesting and thought provoking was the notion (not necessarily an original one I'm sure) of the music corporation making a profit on a vibe that seems to promote black-on-black violence and negativity.

If it is the case that the above is true in a small or large way, I'm thinking it simply raises other questions...

- are black men in control of their image?

- what affect does the promotion of black-on-black violence have on our psyche and culture?

- Are we alarmed/disturbed in any numbers (large or small) at the images we see and consume? If not, why aren't we?

blah blah blah I think black men in the industry have to unite in order to be in control of their image...as long as one is willing to sell-out it's a no win situation...but on the other hand, yes they can control how they are portrayed to the media...it depends on how rich you are trying to become...

We should definitely be alarmed and awakened by how black people in general are portrayed in the media...point blank...

we are living the after affects of black-on-black violence potrayed by the media...after all...look at the prison population, unemployment population, single parent house holds, biggie, tupac, snoop dogg, 50 cent and those who are not well known

[SHEIK YERBOUTI]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
Chuck D is on point rather or not he loses focus at the end of the article...50 has said in many interviews that the beef he creates with other artists is for publicity only. It's not real, but at the same time, what is he doing to help the state of hip hop? Not everyone understands that this is entertainment only...

Get Rich or Die Trying is an extremly dangerous proclamation to say the least I gotta concur. This is supposed to be entertainment, but what are we supposed to be entertained by? The music these cats make or the beef/drama these cats create/deal with after they make their records?

Why does hip-hop gotta have all this bullshit surrounding it? Wasn't the point for some of these cats to get away from the streets? graemlins/conf44.gif

[ May 01, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: toomuchtv ]

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by 1343:
Man you guys are seriously overlooking the msg.
The promotion of Black Death to the same place where Hip Hop originated...the Streets.
This type of msg will be perpetually buried by the bizness as well as transparent to the low level biz people and consumers. The MAN loves this...People glorifying death and fast money...hey this is a service to the MAN.

Who cry when India Arie didnt win one Grammy and Alicia Keys won them all?? There's a valid pooint to be made about promoting "black death" but Chuck didn't make it here, at least not clearly. And that is my problem with this essay, it's poorly written and lacks focus. I assume It was posted here on DHP for us to read and comment on, so that's what I'm doing.

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
I think black men in the industry have to unite in order to be in control of their image...What?

[The Donger]

Ahsaki, did it ever occur to you that they may enjoy this image?

BTW, 50 cent was shot 9 times and was a drug dealer.

What false image do you think he should he come up with by uniting with all other black men?

[ May 01, 2003, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Ghost Of Donger ]

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Ahsaki, did it ever occur to you that they may enjoy this image?

BTW, 50 cent was shot 9 times and was a drug dealer.

What false image do you think he should he come up with by uniting with all other black men? being shot 9 times and living to talk about it is reason enough to not make yourself a target again...didn't the same thing happen to Pac...shot, bragged about it...and now what...

[Cheddar]

He spent 90% (very stingy percentage) talking about the biz and it's climate...the last paragraph is where he got bitter.

Am I the only one who sees this?

[D J 1 3 8]

People often want to blame the music industry and those that profit from it for the state of hip hop, but I put the responsibility solely on the record buying public. They have choices, whether you want to admit it or not, and they choose 50 Cent and Tupac and every other Ganster rapper. These rappers sign contracts and put their image in the hands of their labels by choice. And as long as they're getting rich, they don't complain.

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Ahsaki, did it ever occur to you that they may enjoy this image?

BTW, 50 cent was shot 9 times and was a drug dealer.

What false image do you think he should he come up with by uniting with all other black men? being shot 9 times and living to talk about it is reason enough to not make yourself a target again...didn't the same thing happen to Pac...shot, bragged about it...and now what... </font>[/QUOTE]I agree, but I didn't ask you if this is a healthy lifestyle.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

It seems that a lady's view and understanding can bring clearer conceptions. Thank you Ashaki but I must disagree with the "it's just entertainment" statement.

This same enteratainment is reaching out to hundred of thousands of children nationwide, (I won't even talk about the children throughout the world that is entertained by this genre). Anyway, as parents and elders of the community in which we live, we must teach our children and spend more time with them. The image of survival to them is guns, money, thug life and power. If they do not obtain this their existence They are nothing. As adults we understand "entertainment" and know where to draw the line. Have you ever seen a mass of children that want to be life Frankie or Larry? No (maybe in our generation because of the love of music we have lived with) The reason why is because society has painted a picture that in order to obtain wealth you must either exploit yourself, family, friends or willing at any cost ready to die for it. Teach about the art form of rap, hip hop, the true culture and history.

This form of rap has encouraged our children to lose retrospect of themselves, education and the promise that our civil right forefathers fought and died for. If we continue to let the false media, society and perpetrating leaders show our children the way of life, we should cut our losses now, and be prepared for our own genocide. It is very important that we gain focus, get a hold of ourselves and be part of a solution.

So yes, Chuck D was onto something in the article so I will not totally disregard what his essay.

Oh yeah by the way, did I ever mention how much I despise ghetto rap, Jay-Z, 50 Cent and others that represent thugism in America? Why get mad when others call you nigger when you act like one? graemlins/conf44.gif

Now I am tharough!

[ May 01, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by 1343:
He spent 90% (very stingy percentage) talking about the biz and it's climate...the last paragraph is where he got bitter.

Am I the only one who sees this? I see that, but I also recognize that the other 90% is cloudy as fucc with a lot of wordplay and very little clear meaning.

[Cheddar]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 1343:
He spent 90% (very stingy percentage) talking about the biz and it's climate...the last paragraph is where he got bitter.

Am I the only one who sees this? I see that, but I also recognize that the other 90% is cloudy as fucc with a lot of wordplay and very little clear meaning. </font>[/QUOTE]Yo man thats cool..we dont need to go on about the quality of the piece.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
It seems that a lady's view and understanding can bring clearer conceptions. Thank you Ashaki but I must disagree with the "it's just entertainment" statement.

This same enteratainment is reaching out to hundred of thousands of children nationwide, (I won't even talk about the children throughout the world that is entertained by this genre). Anyway, as parents and elders of the community in which we live, we must teach our children and spend more time with them. The image of survival to them is guns, money, thug life and power. If they do not obtain this their existence They are nothing. As adults we understand "entertainment" and know where to draw the line. Have you ever seen a mass of children that want to be life Frankie or Larry? No (maybe in our generation because of the love of music we have lived with) The reason why is because society has painted a picture that in order to obtain wealth you must either exploit yourself, family, friends or willing at any cost ready to die for it. Teach about the art form of rap, hip hop, the true culture and history.

This form of rap has encouraged our children to lose retrospect of themselves, education and the promise that our civil right forefathers fought and died for. If we continue to let the false media, society and perpetrating leaders show our children the way of life, we should cut our losses now, and be prepared for our own genocide. It is very important that we gain focus, get a hold of ourselves and be part of a solution.

So yes, Chuck D was onto something in the article so I will not totally disregard what his essay.

Oh yeah by the way, did I ever mention how much I despise ghetto rap, Jay-Z, 50 Cent and others that represent thugism in America? Why get mad when others call you nigger when you act like one? graemlins/conf44.gif

Now I am tharough! Disco I agree with you a 110% I never said it was just entertainment...we know better, that's what the entertainers say to justify their actions....

[The Donger]

Maybe what you are saying is that these guys should change thier lifestyles?

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Thanx for clearing that up for me gurl graemlins/thumbsup.gif This battle will never go away until the real media, politicians, entertainers and leaders intervene. This form of our culture is making Willie Lynch Prophecy ring true with some of us helping to exterminate our existence. Talk about generational curses

Willie Lynch Speech on Controlling Slaves (http://www.duboislc.org/html/WillieLynch.html)

[ May 01, 2003, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

[kim lightfoot]

wow...i'm suprised at some of these responses...first of all, i am a hip hop fan...i used to mc with my brother back in the days that chuck spoke of and of course, the climate of rap has changed to something totally self-destructive for our people...black people,latinos,men,women,girls and boys...yes it seemed like chuck was rambling at some points but you can't deny the message that he's posting...i'm 41 and i have a soon to be 9yr old girl...shit is scary out there...i know that 50 is hot so i buy certain music and listen before she sees or hears anything on the radio or on tv...and i listened to his cd...other than the few hits you hear on the radio, everything else on it is wack...and guess what? bitches ain't shit and all a ho could do for me is *****,blah blah blah...over 3 million people, mostly kids get to play this on their cd player...i'm not blaming just 50, but all of the so-called thugs who claim to be artists that wanna entertain us and our children...i watched his interview on mtv and he said with a smile, "yeah i sold crack"...this is like a ****ing badge of honor nowadays for these fools...so when our kids hear that their favorite new rapper has been shot and he used to sell drugs, they feel that shit is cool...i saw the jay z concert on showtime that night and i felt the same way that chuck d felt...yeah, some might say i'm getting old or older, and i might be rambling, but what if this music that we love, this deephouseundergroundsoulfuldancemusic that we call ours would all of a sudden have negative lyrics against our women and ourselves and cats would be getting killed,etc....what would we say then? kim AR15firing.gif

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by kim lightfoot:
wow...i'm suprised at some of these responses...first of all, i am a hip hop fan...i used to mc with my brother back in the days that chuck spoke of and of course, the climate of rap has changed to something totally self-destructive for our people...black people,latinos,men,women,girls and boys...yes it seemed like chuck was rambling at some points but you can't deny the message that he's posting...i'm 41 and i have a soon to be 9yr old girl...shit is scary out there...i know that 50 is hot so i buy certain music and listen before she sees or hears anything on the radio or on tv...and i listened to his cd...other than the few hits you hear on the radio, everything else on it is wack...and guess what? bitches ain't shit and all a ho could do for me is *****,blah blah blah...over 3 million people, mostly kids get to play this on their cd player...i'm not blaming just 50, but all of the so-called thugs who claim to be artists that wanna entertain us and our children...i watched his interview on mtv and he said with a smile, "yeah i sold crack"...this is like a ****ing badge of honor nowadays for these fools...so when our kids hear that their favorite new rapper has been shot and he used to sell drugs, they feel that shit is cool...i saw the jay z concert on showtime that night and i felt the same way that chuck d felt...yeah, some might say i'm getting old or older, and i might be rambling, but what if this music that we love, this deephouseundergroundsoulfuldancemusic that we call ours would all of a sudden have negative lyrics against our women and ourselves and cats would be getting killed,etc....what would we say then? kim AR15firing.gif Thank you so much...

This shit is shaping our kids...point blank end of discussion...

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Much respect Kim, but to answer your question about what would happen when housemusic turns bad. Well, I would hate what happend to it but still have the love for the origin of it. Just as I love the origin of Hip Hop and the People that stay true to the art form.

[Cheddar]

Originally posted by kim lightfoot:
wow...i'm suprised at some of these responses...first of all, i am a hip hop fan...i used to mc with my brother back in the days that chuck spoke of and of course, the climate of rap has changed to something totally self-destructive for our people...black people,latinos,men,women,girls and boys...yes it seemed like chuck was rambling at some points but you can't deny the message that he's posting...i'm 41 and i have a soon to be 9yr old girl...shit is scary out there...i know that 50 is hot so i buy certain music and listen before she sees or hears anything on the radio or on tv...and i listened to his cd...other than the few hits you hear on the radio, everything else on it is wack...and guess what? bitches ain't shit and all a ho could do for me is *****,blah blah blah...over 3 million people, mostly kids get to play this on their cd player...i'm not blaming just 50, but all of the so-called thugs who claim to be artists that wanna entertain us and our children...i watched his interview on mtv and he said with a smile, "yeah i sold crack"...this is like a ****ing badge of honor nowadays for these fools...so when our kids hear that their favorite new rapper has been shot and he used to sell drugs, they feel that shit is cool...i saw the jay z concert on showtime that night and i felt the same way that chuck d felt...yeah, some might say i'm getting old or older, and i might be rambling, but what if this music that we love, this deephouseundergroundsoulfuldancemusic that we call ours would all of a sudden have negative lyrics against our women and ourselves and cats would be getting killed,etc....what would we say then? kim AR15firing.gif Thanks Kim. Good reply.

Kim Lightfoot has some credentials ya'll....dont jump to change your mind and agree too quick now.

[The Donger]

Originally posted by kim lightfoot:
...i watched his interview on mtv and he said with a smile, "yeah i sold crack"...this is like a ****ing badge of honor nowadays for these fools...It's the Paradise Garage of hip-hop...

but seriously, i think the honor is the sense of achievment he gets from raising himself out of the gutter and into the big time, not necessarily the crack dealing as a badge of honor.

[The Donger]

Isn't this how our parents felt about the music we listened to, generation after generation?

We all turned out fine.

You are all getting old...

[Mike Johnson]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kim lightfoot:
...i watched his interview on mtv and he said with a smile, "yeah i sold crack"...this is like a ****ing badge of honor nowadays for these fools...It's the Paradise Garage of hip-hop...

but seriously, i think the honor is the sense of achievment he gets from raising himself out of the gutter and into the big time, not necessarily the crack dealing as a badge of honor. </font>[/QUOTE]Ima get a little ill for a moment, and a LOT black. This shit that they spew has absolutely no, none, zero, zip, positive impact on the community they claim to serve, you know, the "keepin' it real for mah niggas" folks - and they ain't directing it to white trailer trash , but to ghetto folks of color, their "peeps." Man get a clue. It doesn't make any difference if you rise up at the sacrifice of others, whether its selling dope or selling negativity. And this ain't about the "hot beats" shit usually associated with this music. Words say a lot, and to a lot of brothas in the "streets" reinforcing the shit that keeps them down, in the name of "keepin' it real" doesn't do anything for anybody except those in control (I might be ramblin but I'm a little upset now). Guys like 50 only see $$$$$$ so they don't really care as long as the pockets get lined. This is how they make legit cash, whether or not they still deal on the side. However, it's record companies that claim to know what the people want, and when you package that shit up in gold fronts, tits, asses, money, cars, yada yada, it looks mighty tantalizing to someone who's poor as hell and wants to get the **** out of the bottom! But that doesn't make it right. The game is ugly now, from top to bottom. I got a nineteen year old son, and my wife WILL NOT let him blast that stuff in our home. Her stated reason is "why should I as a woman have to suffer in my own house" with those lyrics. I fully understand the argument about older folks' opposition to younger folks' music as I went through it myself. But I never thought that it was cool to proclaim negative lyrics as "hot" and as an accurate protrayal of life. I agree with Chuck D's statement about "them" never having asked the "streets" what the hell is they wanted. It sure ain't death, cause it's a lot of folks who want to live and have some kind of future. Why the hell should we accept that if destruction and negativity is perpetrated on us by us than it's just life, but if by someone white, than suddenly there's a problem. Point blank, it's all WRONG!!

This is one very un-focused rant, but I'm sure you get some of these points.

[Koffy Brown]

GET RICH OR DIE TRYING...that is a hell of a statement...the sad part is that those who indulge in this lifestyle will end up doing the latter...

how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today....

[RaHaAn81]

It's slave music and if you like 50, jay-z, hotmessboyz,trickdaddy, and all that none true hiphop your living in the matrix. Anything with money, cars, hoe's and the blingbling shit is just plain getto shit and it's plaidout. Now if you like the slave music your just fu_king slave.(SLAVE)
:rolleyes:

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by RaHaAn81:
It's slave music and if you like 50, jay-z, hotmessboyz,trickdaddy, and all that none true hiphop your living in the matrix. Anything with money, cars, hoe's and the blingbling shit is just plain getto shit and it's plaidout. Now if you like the slave music your just fu_king slave.(SLAVE)
:rolleyes: It is definitely a form of slavery...but we say we free...hahahahahaha

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today.... I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't see something wrong with hip hop today. At least, I haven't seen anyone say that.

I do think Donger's point about us all getting old and cranky should be taken in to consideration, though. Every single generation has, for the most part, considered the music of the next generation to pretty much suck.

[Shalewa]

Did we all turn out ok? Maybe Donger and Julian your experiences are sufficiently outside of the experiences of those of us who feel assailed by the pervasively destructive images that have pushed Chuck D to the fuming above. Rhetorical tightness is a measure of quality but it is certainly not the one that matters to me in this case. I feel where Chuck is coming from. I understand the raging (and having grown up knowing Toure I can even testify that the cat can be annoying as ****...) and this statement resonates deeply with me. My experience is that the pull to be "down" trumps good home training, faith, stern parenting, relative privelege and good sense for some people. People like my late brother. People who for all the modelling and exposure to other images and understandings of maleness and blackness they have access to still believe the hype and feeling the need to "keep it real" participate to the death in the same kind of role playing games that D&D heads merely lose hours to. The consequences are so high that bringing some heat with the light is not reason enough to discount the statement.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today.... I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't see something wrong with hip hop today. At least, I haven't seen anyone say that.

I do think Donger's point about us all getting old and cranky should be taken in to consideration, though. Every single generation has, for the most part, considered the music of the next generation to pretty much suck. </font>[/QUOTE]if you can give me a generation who's music has been more influential than hip hop has in today's society then I could take that into consideration...the bottom line is Rap music today is harmful...harmful...and destructive

[Cheddar]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today.... I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't see something wrong with hip hop today. At least, I haven't seen anyone say that.

I do think Donger's point about us all getting old and cranky should be taken in to consideration, though. Every single generation has, for the most part, considered the music of the next generation to pretty much suck. </font>[/QUOTE]That is true but I ask you:
Show similarities between the two time periods.
What were some of the worst songs out??
Just Ice "Latoya" "Slut"??

There has never been this present amount of negativity in the music. This is crazy.
I have yet to reach thirty and I cant relate at all...when amongst friends I cant relate to the way they mouth off the words of some idiotic lyric...and I cant relate to the pressure people fall to in order to remain 'Down".

[RaHaAn81]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Thanx for clearing that up for me gurl graemlins/thumbsup.gif This battle will never go away until the real media, politicians, entertainers and leaders intervene. This form of our culture is making Willie Lynch Prophecy ring true with some of us helping to exterminate our existence. Talk about generational curses

Willie Lynch Speech on Controlling Slaves (http://www.duboislc.org/html/WillieLynch.html) So true. But people just keep graemlins/sleep2.gif

[The Donger]

What I'm saying is it wasn't Keith Richard's and Mickj Jaggers job to be "positive" for the white community (man the drugs they used to do and all the seeds they have running around)...

What makes you think it's hip-hop's job to be positive for the black community?

Get over it, music is music, life is ****ed up, and I AIN'T BLAMING MARILYN MANSON FOR COLUMBINE!

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today.... I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't see something wrong with hip hop today. At least, I haven't seen anyone say that.

I do think Donger's point about us all getting old and cranky should be taken in to consideration, though. Every single generation has, for the most part, considered the music of the next generation to pretty much suck. </font>[/QUOTE]This isn't like Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry singing about sexual euphemisms, or the Rolling Stones or the Doors using drug euphemisms - these are SPECIFIC calls for crime and violence delivered in the language of the streets - a language that is developed PRIOR to its use in hip-hop lyrics.

Donger, DJ138 - your views seem contrary for the sake of contrariousness. That you don't empathize with the words that came from Chuck and those on the board who understand his points belies the vicariousness of your viewpoints.

Non-Black folks love the thrill of the black experience - and when the shooting starts, they can go home.

I have personally experienced crime and violence - through three generations of my family, no less - and I understand the influence pop-culture had on the climate in which the crime and violence was perpertrated. Several cousins, a brother, two uncles and many more friends and loved ones were lost in the streets of the midwest and west coast. The parallels we could tie were what drugs were they using and what music they were listening to at the time.

[ May 01, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today.... I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't see something wrong with hip hop today. At least, I haven't seen anyone say that.

I do think Donger's point about us all getting old and cranky should be taken in to consideration, though. Every single generation has, for the most part, considered the music of the next generation to pretty much suck. </font>[/QUOTE]This isn't like Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry singing about sexual euphemisms, or the Rolling Stones or the Doors using drug euphemisms - these are SPECIFIC calls for crime and violence delivered in the language of the streets - a language that is developed PRIOR to its use in hip-hop lyrics.

Donger, DJ138 - your views seem contrary for the sake of contrariousness. That you don't empathize with the words that came from Chuck and those on the board who understand his points belies the vicariousness of your viewpoints.

Non-Black folks love the thrill of the black experience - and when the shooting starts, they can go home.

I have personally experienced crime and violence - through three generations of my family, no less - and I understand the influence pop-culture had on the climate in which the crime and violence was perpertrated. Several cousins, a brother, two uncles and many more friends and loved ones were lost in the streets of the midwest and west coast. The parallels we could tie were what drugs were they using and what music they were listening to at the time.

Oversimplification belies immaturity. </font>[/QUOTE]Wow

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
Did we all turn out ok? Maybe Donger and Julian your experiences are sufficiently outside of the experiences of those of us who feel assailed by the pervasively destructive images that have pushed Chuck D to the fuming above. Rhetorical tightness is a measure of quality but it is certainly not the one that matters to me in this case. I feel where Chuck is coming from. I understand the raging (and having grown up knowing Toure I can even testify that the cat can be annoying as ****...) and this statement resonates deeply with me. My experience is that the pull to be "down" trumps good home training, faith, stern parenting, relative privelege and good sense for some people. People like my late brother. People who for all the modelling and exposure to other images and understandings of maleness and blackness they have access to still believe the hype and feeling the need to "keep it real" participate to the death in the same kind of role playing games that D&D heads merely lose hours to. The consequences are so high that bringing some heat with the light is not reason enough to discount the statement. Now we are talking about two different things: the clarity of Chuck's writing VS the current state of hip hop.

I was originally commenting on what I saw as a failure to communicate on the part of Chuck D. I'm not claiming that the current state of hip hop doesn't warrant discussion. Indeed it does, and I think some of the peeps here have made much clearer and more profound points than those of Mr. Chuck.

I did, however, feel that Donger's point about us all getting older was relevant. I don't think acknowledging this negates the fact that we all see the negative ramifications of hip hop. Some have been more personally affected than others, and I'm sorry for your loss. In no way did I mean to imply that there is no negative effects from hip hop culture.

Chuck D's essay has sparked this here debate and for that I thank him.
Having looked up to him for so long, I just wish that he could have nailed it the first time.

[The Donger]

go out and vote, go to church, become a teacher, be a good parent. That's your job. When your kid watches violence in a movie or hears it on the radio, tell them "Don't do that".

I remember people blaming Ozzy that thier kids killed themselves because of "Suicide solution".

If someone wants to be bad, they will be bad, if they want to be good, they will be good.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
go out and vote, go to church, become a teacher, be a good parent. That's your job. When your kid watches violence in a movie or hears it on the radio, tell them "Don't do that".

I remember people blaming Ozzy that thier kids killed themselves because of "Suicide solution".

If someone wants to be bad, they will be bad, if they want to be good, they will be good. The sad thing about this Donger and I think that this is the point you are missing...alot of us parents do all of those things...we are very aware of what our kids watch, listen to, who they interact with blah blah blah...but Rap music today..has the power of undoing what we as parents do...Rap music today is influencing others to do things that they may not have done if it weren't for the pimping of Rap...Right now...all parents should be fearful for what society has created...through hip hop and rap...

138 I get your point on how not so well written or communciated Chuck's essay is...but the bottom line is he was trying to make a point which you either get or you don't...

[The Donger]

Oh yeah, go back and read my posts.

I don't ever recall saying that these things were either positive or negative, so stop assuming...

[Bill Blake]

Im telling you come to my building here at work.

What is the reality of the ‘thug’ that these rappers and the industry romanticizes?

We have three floors dedicated to job placement services as part of these offenders parole. Most are very young and are in for petty drug offenses.

They are the ‘real’ thugz’ from projects or ‘bad’ neighborhoods throughout the boroughs. All of them dress like they just got out a rap video.

And they are for the most part, the biggest ****ing morons in New York with the worst possible futures anyone could ever desire.

All clamoring for some minimum wage placement in some remedial job and even if there lucky to get it, no telling how long it will last, with no chance for most to ever obtain an education, either switching between these low paying jobs and dealing again, either ending up back in prison. Will most make it?

Yea, if there lucky thell be some janitor (not a bad job and that’s if they ****ing real lucky) and of by the age of forty in horrible heath with three or more children from three or more women, not making enough, or spending time with any of them creating the next generation of thugz.

How glamorous will they be at 35?

These rappers live in these neighborhoods. They now reality but they sure as **** aint talking about it. They all no they aint up in the no damn VIP and no damn club.

These fools may be able to blow their whole paycheck at fancy club for one night in ‘nice gear’ (oh yea, real expensive tennis shoes) but after that broke as ****.

For the rest of the month its life as usual, a poor ass nobody going nowhere, never accomplishing shit.

And this is what all the little white teenyboppers aspire to mimic. This is what MTV and BET glorify? This is the life of the ‘gangsta’?

My ass. If they showed reality for reality everyone would be ashamed of the whole farce. AND NO ONE would ever want to be like these ****ing dumbasses.

Its bullshit and those ****s that come into my building everyday are the most pathetic excuses for young men anyone could ever imagine…but hey Ill give them one thing…they sure are keeping it gangsta, they are real thugz….word.

Funniest thing is, when you catch some of them by themselves, they are not ‘bad’ kids, but the moment they get in their little groups all they are good at is reinforcing idiocy…****ing sad.
**** MTV, BET, Radio, and all the rappers that keep pushing out this big fat disgusting lie about this bullshit street shit.

[ May 01, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: Jamie Lennox ]

[The Donger]

The sad thing about this Donger and I think that this is the point you are missing...alot of us parents do all of those things...we are very aware of what our kids watch, listen to, who they interact with blah blah blah...but Rap music today..has the power of undoing what we as parents do...Rap music today is influencing others to do things that they may not have done if it weren't for the pimping of Rap...Right now...all parents should be fearful for what society has created...through hip hop and rap...
[/QB]Now you are scaring me.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today.... I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't see something wrong with hip hop today. At least, I haven't seen anyone say that.

I do think Donger's point about us all getting old and cranky should be taken in to consideration, though. Every single generation has, for the most part, considered the music of the next generation to pretty much suck. </font>[/QUOTE]This isn't like Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry singing about sexual euphemisms, or the Rolling Stones or the Doors using drug euphemisms - these are SPECIFIC calls for crime and violence delivered in the language of the streets - a language that is developed PRIOR to its use in hip-hop lyrics.

Donger, DJ138 - your views seem contrary for the sake of contrariousness. That you don't empathize with the words that came from Chuck and those on the board who understand his points belies the vicariousness of your viewpoints.

Non-Black folks love the thrill of the black experience - and when the shooting starts, they can go home.

I have personally experienced crime and violence - through three generations of my family, no less - and I understand the influence pop-culture had on the climate in which the crime and violence was perpertrated. Several cousins, a brother, two uncles and many more friends and loved ones were lost in the streets of the midwest and west coast. The parallels we could tie were what drugs were they using and what music they were listening to at the time. </font>[/QUOTE]As for being contrary for it's own sake, for me personally, nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not sure what I have said that would make you assume that. As for Donger, I don't speak for him nor him for me. I'm also not sure what the relevance of "non-black folks" is concerning my comments. Color of skin or life experience doesn't have anything to do with being critical of Chuck D's original essay. But again, I think we have moved beyond that and we're simply discussing the current state of hip hop, which is anything but simple.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
go out and vote, go to church, become a teacher, be a good parent. That's your job. When your kid watches violence in a movie or hears it on the radio, tell them "Don't do that".

I remember people blaming Ozzy that thier kids killed themselves because of "Suicide solution".

If someone wants to be bad, they will be bad, if they want to be good, they will be good. Rather scientific.

Human beings pump themselves up with music and drugs in locker rooms prior to football and baseball games...

Boxers enter the ring full of adrenaline to their favorite choice of music...

Political campaigns feature an anthem (Clinton and FM's Don't Stop"...

Soldiers use chants in cadence during training and sing anthems when heading off to battle("From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli...")...

Budhism, Sufism, Catholicism, etc., etc. - all have incense and the cacaphony of chants...

But we discount influence of popular music combined with a street mentality and lifestyle in the conditions of of violence on American streets.

Foolish nearsightedness.

[Cheddar]

This thread confirms my thoughts about why people were raving..calling Spike Lee's Bamboozled a horrible movie.

[fred da warrior]

This young lady (Stephanie Mwandishi Gadlin) presented this piece that she wrote at a conference @ Olive Harvey College here in Chicago last week . Pretty interesting perspective.


Famed Kenyan author Ngugi wa Thiongo once remarked: "...Language carries culture and culture carries, particularly through orature and literature, the entire body of values by which we perceive ourselves and our place in the world."

Interesting perspective. If language carries a people's culture and therefore projects a people's cultural values to others, explain to me why are we allowing our young men and women in the recording industry to use offensive, self-deprecating language disguised as song lyrics to discredit an entire people. Surely, the ancestors are not proud.

Enough with the excuses already. I love hip hop as much as the next woman, and my frustration is not another case of "playa hating," or "blaming rappers for society's social ills." That argument is tired and quite silly. Nor am I confused about parental responsibility. Yeah, I know ...if you don't like it, don't buy it. Blah...blah...blah. That is not this discussion. I simply want to know how long will we make excuses for entertainers of any kind who work hand-and-foot with compounded social ills to emasculate a group of people.

Case in point: Dr Dre (Andre Young) was recently referred to as "the original, true-blue gangsta-rap god," by Talk Magazine (April 2001). Writer Michael Daly offers a quote from Dre's boss, Interscope Records cofounder Jimmy Iovine: "Not since the Beatles or the Rolling stones has any one individual artist affected society or popular music more than Dr. Dre." His boss then goes on to say: " ...he impacts the entire continent."

Wow, that's a lot of responsibility for a record producer. Young, at age 36, has amassed about a $100 million fortune writing and producing hip hop music under the genre of gangster rap - a genre he is often credited with creating. His latest invention, Eminem, is now being promoted as the conduit for white rage. He offers musical missives about killing his wife, deranged fans and doing peculiar things to homosexuals.

No one argues that Young creates the coldest beats known to man. Brother surely has talent. The bass hook in Xxplosive on his The Chronic 2001 album, was so off the hook, R&B songstress Erykah Badu used it to rocket Bag Lady to the top of the charts. While Badu's tome expressed the plight of a impoverished woman, Dre's lyrical contribution to that mesmerizing beat included rapper Kurupt's poetic utterings:

"West coast shit nigga over dosage - imperial pistols ferocious **** a bitch; don't tease bitch, strip tease bitch Eat a bowl of these bitch, gobble the dick Hoes forgot to eat a dick can shut the **** up! Gobble and swallow a nut up, shut up and get my cash Backhanded, pimp slapped backwards and left stranded Just pop ya collar, pimp convention hoes for a dollar Six-Deuce in a plush, six-deuce impala Pimpin hoes from Texas to Guatemala Bitch niggaz paid for hoes, just to lay wit hoes Relax one night, and paid to stay wit hoes Captain Save' Em all day (bitch) well save this dick Bitch nigga, you more of a bitch than a bitch You ain't into hittin pussy, or hittin the switch You into hittin bitches off of the grip, you punk bitch"


When Talk Magazine asks the super producer the usual question about his lyrical content, inquiring about the proposed views of a late civil rights icon about the quality of his music, Dre responds: "Martin Luther King would love this." Is that right?

In another celebration of black musical success, wonder-lyricist Sean "Jay Z" Carter often writes and performs head-banging missives that have made him a wealthy and sought after celebrity. Take just one verse from the hit song,"Big Pimpin."

"You know I - thug em, **** em, love em, leave em Cause I don't ****in need em Take em out the hood, keep em lookin good But I don't ****in feed em First time they fuss I'm breezin Talkin bout, "What's the reasons?" I'm a pimp in every sense of the word, bitch Better trust than believe em In the cut where I keep em til I need a nut, til I need to beat the guts Then it's, beep beep and I'm pickin em up Let em play with the dick in the truck Many chicks wanna put Jigga fist in cuffs Divorce him and split his bucks Just because you got good head, I'ma break bread so you can be livin it up? Shit I.. parts with nothin, y'all be frontin Me give my heart to a woman? Not for nothin, never happen I'll be forever mackin Heart cold as assassins, I got no passion I got no patience And I hate waitin.. Hoe get yo' ass in And let's RI-I-I-I-I-I...."


What kind of women has he been exposed to and just whom is he talking about? A white woman? Asian? Latino? Oh, I forgot, that's not allowed. In the spirit of unity, let us not forget the sisters.

Lil' Kim (Kimberly Jones) offers the following thought-provoking observation in "She Don't Love You," from her Notorious K.I.M. release: "Is she drop-dead fine? Does she like it from behind? Is she fly? Do she got a style like mine? Does she slurp it, rub it, jerk it, ride it? Tell you how you feel when you inside it You love me, and I know she know Cuz everytime I come around, she be like "let's go" Girls know not to leave they man around me I get my hands on 'em. He puttin' rent and a Benz on m...."

Charli Baltimore offers another view in "Pimp the One You Love," on her Cold as Ice release:


"Off the hyped bit, always been the tight bitch Keep these cats in line, pay that rent on time And we'll talk about extra keys to my spot When it's extra V's in my lot, extra G's in my knots So how I managed to get damaged on 'chill with one nigga' shit I was to break me off with some more figures bitch I don't know, just caught me at the right moment Vulnerable, nigga jumped up on it With mind games, took me out of my frame I ain't even want his payback, my homey Tony Drapper He pimped for the guts and I was givin' 'em up Can't tell me I can't have any player I want And I burnt myself out tryin' to turn his ass out...."


I am sure fans of all four aforementioned artists will dismiss my ramblings and random recitation of their song lyrics as being taken out of context. Others might go as far as to tell me that these artists are merely "storytellers," much like a Eric Jerome Dickey, Terri McMillian or Omar Tyree. And please, don't get me wrong about diversity in the culture either. I understand all rappers can't be Lauryn Hill, Mos Def, Common, or a member of Dead Prez. I also know that new artists are more likely to follow the more controversial hip hop icons than buck them. The more shocking, the more vile, the more graphic, the more violent, the more sexist... the more money, the more sales... the more bling, bling.... Right or wrong?

Yet, I refuse to believe that our young people willfully set out to create songs to ridicule and embarrass their heritage, family and community. I refuse to believe that Jay-Z sat down with a pen and paper and wrote those lyrics on his own, and that those are his beliefs. Nor will I ever believe that Lil Kim wants sex without love, commitment and intimacy. I do not believe Dr. Dre hates his wife and children or wants to murder or die in a hail of bullets. I refuse to believe that many of our young brothers and sisters in the entertainment industry have little integrity, self-esteem and love.

The more I think I about it, I am convinced there must be a hip hop constitution that mandates how rappers represent musically. The mandate, in the form of a recording contract, is actually a set of commandments authored by the "music establishment," otherwise known as the "industry," to ensure the artist's marketability in an already saturated genre.

HIP HOP's (UNSPOKEN) TEN COMMANDMENTS

Commandment I: Thou must dis' black women. You are allowed to distinguish between bitches, hoes and "real sisters" only during interviews when asked to clarify your statements. You must talk about beating a woman up at least once on your CD or demo. On at least four (4) but no more than five (5) singles/demos you must talk about having rough and unprotected sex with a woman. You must also refer to your girlfriend or wife as a "bitch" in an endearing way. All music videos must reflect the aforementioned notions.You can talk about doing things to other people's mothers as acts of creative expression. You may also refer endearingly to an unplanned child as a "bastard," "shorty," "lil nigga," or "lil G." By honoring this commandment you vow to never rally behind black females or support a strong family bond. You see her only as an object for sex and to reap the repercussions of your rage. You also believe she is only out to get you.

(Supplement for females) Thou must dis' black men. Female rappers are allowed to distinguish against niggas, bustas, scrubs and punk. You must lyrically emasculate them in every way possible. On at least one (1) CD or demo you must destroy his character by either calling him a homosexual or talking about his lack of money. You are allowed to refer to your boyfriend or husband as your "nigga" in an endearing way. All music videos must reflect aforementioned notions. By honoring this Commandment you vow to never identify with the black male's struggle against white supremacy. You vow to never support a strong family bond. You also uphold the tenets that all of his problems are of his own doing. You see him as only an object for sex and money. You believe he is only out to get you.

Commandment II: Thou must kill. You must "lyrically" take the life of at least one other black person in order to secure a hit CD. This law does not promote the physical killing of another person. However, it is not against the law to assassinate another person on record. You must only talk about killing your own kind, however, or other cultures may sue you for inciting racial violence. You must express pleasure in the kill. The kill must be graphic and extensive in detail. The consumer must always be left with the feeling that taking a person's life (lyrically) was justified. Most of the lyrical murders must be done by guns, however creativity allows for poisoning, stabbings, beatings, stompings, and suffocating. You do not distinguish between male or female kills. By keeping this Commandment you vow to never claim acts of genocide publicly even when you are a victim of violent repression yourself. You also agree to "lyrical" acts of black-on-black violence, as well as prolific incidents of brutality.

Commandment III: Thou must covet. Thou must talk about lusting after things that do not belong to you. You must have an unusual craving for things that do not belong to you. Your desire must be so strong that you unwittingly uphold the second commandment. This law does not advocate you physically go after the material possessions of someone in your community. By keeping this commandment you vow to never promote a strong work ethic in your music or to speak against greed, lust and impulsive behavior. In fact, you now believe greed is healthy.

Commandment IV: Thou must have a lot of sex. You must have no fewer than three (3) songs on your CD or demo that promote sexual intercourse with one or a group of individuals. You cannot express a deep sense of love or marriage. Thou shalt not talk about commitment, bonding, and intimacy. You can only talk about sex in its purest and rawest terms. Do not use "make love," or "provide pleasure," or "pro-create." You must never mention a sexually transmitted disease in the context of these records. You can however discuss the use of contraceptives, but only if you're referring to sexual intercourse with a hoe. (See first Commandment). If you are under age 16, you may substitute sex with the "flirting," and "fantasies about being intimate with your teacher, neighbor's child, or another rapper." You must be creative in your graphic detail of sexual intercourse so to leave nothing to the imagination. The details can be slightly skewered in order to circumvent radio censors. However, this does not excuse radio edits from removing references to sex. Therefore stay ahead of the game by using clever phrases with dual and triple meanings. By keeping this Commandment, you vow to never promote unconditional or agape love in your community; promote the black family in a positive light; or uplift male/female relationships.

Commandment V: Thou must celebrate the drug culture. Thou must condone and identify with the proliferation of drugs in the black community. You should create endearing lyrical expressions to identify various narcotics and mind-altering substances. Though you are not to personally distribute or purchase illegal substances, you may allude to it lyrically. (To protect industry investment, we discourage musical confessions to crimes where the statue of limitations have not run out.) You may allude to a war on drugs,but only as justification to carry out the second commandment. You must continually suggest that selling drugs or "slangin'" produces the only legitimate income for impoverished black people. All music videos must either glamorize this lifestyle by showing the "success" of the narcotic trade, or glamorize prison living. You should refer to drug addicted citizens in comical terms that illicit disgust, laughter, fear, pity or retribution. You are never to question U.S. drug policy. You can never promote healthy living and thinking. Nor can you advocate moderation in tobacco and liquor consumption. By keeping this commandment, you vow to never discuss the impact of drug addiction among people of color; its impact on the community's overall health; its impact on the prison industrial complex; or, its impact on the black family.

Commandment VI: Thou must rarely talk about God and spirituality. You must lyrically condone atheism and a false belief system that negates the existences of a higher being. You must routinely question the existence of a god by lyrically challenging him/her/it to take your life or to grant you three wishes. You are to refer to yourself as a god who gives and takes life. You may lyrically create your own religion (see tenth commandment) based on a ghetto belief system. Thou shalt not talk about life and death as it relates to spirituality or a sense of purpose. You should never speak of scripture or religious texts. You are prohibited from acknowledging any spiritual beliefs that may have been instilled you by family. However, you may identify with a Jesus by wearing a large, diamond encrusted piece whereby you may brag about its costs. Under no circumstance are you to promote prayer, reflection, meditation, atonement, redemption, sacrifice, mercy or grace. The consumer fan base must identify with your lack of spiritual grounding by believing that the only gods are sex and money. By keeping this commandment you vow to limit your personal spiritual growth and development. You also vow to never be seen publicly in a church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other house of worship and reflection.

Commandment VII: Thou must promote capitalism. On no fewer than four (4) singles or demo records you must talk about money as if it were a living, breathing thing. You must talk about making it, taking it and the love of it. Your lyrics must always place money over love, over women, over religion (see sixth commandment). You must never talking about savings and investing. Thou can, however, say the words "currency exchange," "welfare check," "first of the month," and "food stamps." You must never talk about pooling of resources. Thou can never equate capitalism with poverty. You must never mention the IMF, WTO or Federal Reserve. In fact never mention banking or the stock market at all. Do not mention technology. Do not discuss taxing. Do not discuss the federal budget. (See Commandment V). You must promote individual wealth over community wealth. You should talk about all of your purchases, specifically naming makers/distributors of expensive jewelry, cars, clothing and liquor. Once you become a successful entertainer you should purchase a very big house and no fewer than three (3) expensive cars. Publicly, you should live within a lavish lifestyle in order to please your consumer fan base that now lives vicariously through your music. Your lifestyle should include, but not be limited to: living in exclusive communities, catering to huge entourages, routinely eating at expensive restaurants, flying to Europe for fashion shows, purchasing designer clothing only, ordering platinum and diamond encrusted jewelry for your body and teeth, purchasing expensive weapons and devices, frequent partying and purchasing big quantities of expensive liquor and tobacco/cigars. Thou should consistently ridicule those who cannot afford the aforementioned items. By keeping this commandment you vow to always promote a consumer culture v. a producer culture.

Commandment VIII: Thou cannot have a sense of history. Never ever refer to any historical event that may cause the consumer to think about his/her relation to history. Your role is to entertain, not educate. Thou art prohibited from speaking of the following: Trans-Atlantic slave trade; African holocaust: Reconstruction: the civil rights movement; the Black Power Movement; the "real" Harlem Renaissance, and so forth. You can never mention the following people: Martin Luther King Jr., Hannibal, Mansa Musa, Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, David Walker, Nat Turner, George Jackson, El-hajj Malik Shabazz (Malcolm X), Jesse Jackson, Patrice Lumumba, Nelson Mandela, Winnie Mandela, Steve Biko, Louis Farrakhan, Booker T. Washington, W.E.B. DuBois, Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, Bobby Seale, Kwame Ture, Ida B. Wells, Assata Shakur...unless you are making fun of their names, causes or crusaders. (I.e., Rah Digga's Harriet Thugman). Do not mention Africa, Brazil, the Caribbean or Asia, unless to disparage. By keeping this commandment you vow to never promote a sense of awareness, a knowledge of self or the consumer's global relationship to kindred spirits.

Commandment IX: Thou must not advocate. Thou art prohibited from advocacy of anything of social redeeming value. Your lyrics must reflect a detachment from the social, political and economic reality of your community. Your lyrics can occasionally ridicule people who march, protest and advocate social causes. The consumer should never assume that thou reads newspapers, magazines or books. In other words it must appear that nothing that happens in the "real" non-entertainment world, has any personal affect on your thinking. Nor should the consumer of your CD or demo walk away with the belief that you care about anything other than the Commandments IV and VII. Never talk about the "industry." By keeping this commandment understand you must never appear at a non-entertainment-related event, unless of course you are entertaining. You must never donate money, resources or materials to needy organizations, families or causes. When questioned about this you must defend your position by claiming you are an entertainer and that's all. You can never participate in interviews discussing relevant social issues. Thou art not responsible for the behavior encouraged by your music because thou art not responsible for marketing and sales to minor, unstable individuals, or mentally ill citizens. You understand that you cannot attend rallies, sermons, marches, and picnics, festivals or workshops that have nothing to do with entertainment or the recording industry.


Commandment X: Thou must promote all things ghetto. You may never define the word ghetto or discuss its creation. You must uphold its principals and create new creeds. You must lyrically create a fictional account of ghetto living that inspires comradeship and a sense of pride among its residents. Your lyrics must create a ghetto dweller that is proud to live in the ghetto and takes offense at others moving into it. You must celebrate ghetto life by reminiscing about days in poverty and your mothers on welfare and about your fathers who were not there. Additionally, your lyrics must offer the mainstream a rare glimpse inside a "socio-economic matrix" while allowing them psychologically off the hook for the ghetto's creation. You must celebrate ghetto language, ghetto living, ghetto housing, ghetto clothing, ghetto hairstyles, ghetto sexual habits, ghetto education, and ghetto economics and ghetto self-hatred. You must romanticize poverty with tales of sex, drugs, money, creed and fear. The ghetto must become a magical place. By keeping this commandment you vow to create and then instill pride in a false culture of poverty, crime, drugs, illegitimacy, ignorance and apathy. You also vow to attribute the ghetto only to Black people. You also vow to never leave the ghetto matrix psychologically, even when your economic status changes (see seventh commandment) In other words you will remember to "keep it real."

By keeping the aforementioned commandments we, "the industry," guarantee the following:

1. Unlimited marketing success and cross-over appeal.
2. A guaranteed income
3. Fame beyond your wildest dreams
4. Unlimited (but recoupable) industry resources
5. Several music awards, citations and honors
6. Protection from community repercussions

This sacred scroll must be handed to every potential and current Black hip hop artist in the nation. While some sign, many others I am sure others have refused, as there is circumstantial evidence that supports that. Occasionally a breakthrough performer will offer lyrics that make us think, act and believe as if we have purpose and are loved in this life. Yet the majority of our youth must be forced to sign, recite and then internalize these commandments in order to guarantee their market success. I imagine if they do not sign the doctrine, they are relegated to doing poetry readings at open mics, working menial jobs, fading into relative obscurity and living in the "ghetto matrix." This must be the answer, because the truth is surely a lot more painful.

stephanie mwandisi gadlin is a Chicago-based writer who focuses on cultural and socio-political issues. In a past life she served as national press secretary to the Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr. e-Mail: StephGadlin@aol.com

[ May 01, 2003, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: fred ]

[The Donger]

Chuck D should learn how to write.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
if they want to be good, they will be good. Yes but incentives and decentives for behavior are real.

It is a proven fact.

[The Donger]

If someone makes bad decisions based on music, then they probably think wrestling is real too.

SO what are all of you saying?

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
if they want to be good, they will be good. Yes but incentives and decentives for behavior are real.

It is a proven fact. </font>[/QUOTE]Any incentives for bad behavior already existed in the streets way before hip-hop, and before the birth of this planet.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
If someone makes bad decisions based on music, then they probably think wrestling is real too.

SO what are all of you saying? Its not about music. Its about a false representation based a romantic (false) slant about 'street life' thugz as a culture with a whole culture developed around it to promote it.

There are moral ideas underlying most of the images and they do and can affect the mentality of people.

Ultimately are the people recieving these images responsable? You bet your ass they are but it doesnt mean that people feeding it to them arent ****s.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by 1343:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today.... I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't see something wrong with hip hop today. At least, I haven't seen anyone say that.

I do think Donger's point about us all getting old and cranky should be taken in to consideration, though. Every single generation has, for the most part, considered the music of the next generation to pretty much suck. </font>[/QUOTE]That is true but I ask you:
Show similarities between the two time periods.
What were some of the worst songs out??
Just Ice "Latoya" "Slut"??

There has never been this present amount of negativity in the music. This is crazy.
I have yet to reach thirty and I cant relate at all...when amongst friends I cant relate to the way they mouth off the words of some idiotic lyric...and I cant relate to the pressure people fall to in order to remain 'Down". </font>[/QUOTE]too busy writing and responding but I will quote this as one of the roots of the Bling Bling mentality: ;)

i got bodyguards, i got two big cars
that definitely aint the wack
i got a lincoln continental and a sunroof cadillac
so after school, i take a dip in the pool
which really is on the wall
i got a color tv so i can see
the knicks play basketball
hear me talkin bout checkbooks, credit cards
more money than a sucker could ever spend
but i wouldnt give a sucker or a bum from the rucker
not a dime til i made it again

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by 1343:
This thread confirms my thoughts about why people were raving..calling Spike Lee's Bamboozled a horrible movie. because most people don't like the truth...for some the truth hurts and for others the truth shall set you free...

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today.... I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't see something wrong with hip hop today. At least, I haven't seen anyone say that.

I do think Donger's point about us all getting old and cranky should be taken in to consideration, though. Every single generation has, for the most part, considered the music of the next generation to pretty much suck. </font>[/QUOTE]This isn't like Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry singing about sexual euphemisms, or the Rolling Stones or the Doors using drug euphemisms - these are SPECIFIC calls for crime and violence delivered in the language of the streets - a language that is developed PRIOR to its use in hip-hop lyrics.

Donger, DJ138 - your views seem contrary for the sake of contrariousness. That you don't empathize with the words that came from Chuck and those on the board who understand his points belies the vicariousness of your viewpoints.

Non-Black folks love the thrill of the black experience - and when the shooting starts, they can go home.

I have personally experienced crime and violence - through three generations of my family, no less - and I understand the influence pop-culture had on the climate in which the crime and violence was perpertrated. Several cousins, a brother, two uncles and many more friends and loved ones were lost in the streets of the midwest and west coast. The parallels we could tie were what drugs were they using and what music they were listening to at the time. </font>[/QUOTE]As for being contrary for it's own sake, for me personally, nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not sure what I have said that would make you assume that. As for Donger, I don't speak for him nor him for me. I'm also not sure what the relevance of "non-black folks" is concerning my comments. Color of skin or life experience doesn't have anything to do with being critical of Chuck D's original essay. But again, I think we have moved beyond that and we're simply discussing the current state of hip hop, which is anything but simple. </font>[/QUOTE]Your arguement came off as style over substance. That Chuck D's compositional style wasn't acceptable to you didn't detract from the issues.

Also, it is obvious that both you and Donger proceeded to allow that criticism to penetrate the arguement until it resulted in three pages of counterpoints where you decided to pseudo-reverse your positions and pseudo-agree.

It is poor taste to take a topic such as this and reduce it to playful casual debate.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
if they want to be good, they will be good. Yes but incentives and decentives for behavior are real.

It is a proven fact. </font>[/QUOTE]Any incentives for bad behavior already existed in the streets way before hip-hop, and before the birth of this planet. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I didnt say this was 'hip hops' fault (its simply a put in, put out medium) but hip hop has become a monothilic tool in the mainstream used to romanticize and glorify not only bad behavior, but bad ideas.

What are they putting in, what they getting out?

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 1343:
This thread confirms my thoughts about why people were raving..calling Spike Lee's Bamboozled a horrible movie. because most people don't like the truth...for some the truth hurts and for others the truth shall set you free... </font>[/QUOTE]This is bullshit

[Mike Johnson]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
Chuck D's essay has sparked this here debate and for that I thank him.
Having looked up to him for so long, I just wish that he could have nailed it the first time. You don't always have to "nail" it to get the point across. I got a fairly clear picture of what he was saying. Please don't make this into a younger/older generation issue. Death and negativity affects everyone. It bothers me that a radio station can blast 50's "Gangster" song and attempt to convince the world that it's "hot" and that folks should be feelin' it, buying it, living it.

Man, somebody needs to start playing that track "Self Destruction" that aired back in the late 80's as a rallying cry to stop black-on-black crime. This stuff is still happening, and the glamorization of the "ghetto" is more troubling. I gotta run - would love to add more here.

[The Donger]

Sounds like there are a lot of Geaorge Bush supporters out here...

Is "Don't Make Me Wait" by the NYC Peech boys, or any disco/house song with sexual content morally incorrect? Should we stop listening to these records as a house community? Did I get laid at the Paradise Garage because that song was played, or cause 2 people felt like ****ing? Let's just start monitoring and altering all music until it can be agreed upon as appropriate and acceptable by the new spiritual house head police.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
how can you not see anything wrong with the state of hip hop today.... I don't think there's anyone here that doesn't see something wrong with hip hop today. At least, I haven't seen anyone say that.

I do think Donger's point about us all getting old and cranky should be taken in to consideration, though. Every single generation has, for the most part, considered the music of the next generation to pretty much suck. </font>[/QUOTE]This isn't like Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry singing about sexual euphemisms, or the Rolling Stones or the Doors using drug euphemisms - these are SPECIFIC calls for crime and violence delivered in the language of the streets - a language that is developed PRIOR to its use in hip-hop lyrics.

Donger, DJ138 - your views seem contrary for the sake of contrariousness. That you don't empathize with the words that came from Chuck and those on the board who understand his points belies the vicariousness of your viewpoints.

Non-Black folks love the thrill of the black experience - and when the shooting starts, they can go home.

I have personally experienced crime and violence - through three generations of my family, no less - and I understand the influence pop-culture had on the climate in which the crime and violence was perpertrated. Several cousins, a brother, two uncles and many more friends and loved ones were lost in the streets of the midwest and west coast. The parallels we could tie were what drugs were they using and what music they were listening to at the time. </font>[/QUOTE]As for being contrary for it's own sake, for me personally, nothing could be further from the truth. I'm not sure what I have said that would make you assume that. As for Donger, I don't speak for him nor him for me. I'm also not sure what the relevance of "non-black folks" is concerning my comments. Color of skin or life experience doesn't have anything to do with being critical of Chuck D's original essay. But again, I think we have moved beyond that and we're simply discussing the current state of hip hop, which is anything but simple. </font>[/QUOTE]Your arguement came off as style over substance. That Chuck D's compositional style wasn't acceptable to you didn't detract from the issues.

Also, it is obvious that both you and Donger proceeded to allow that criticism to penetrate the arguement until it resulted in three pages of counterpoints where you decided to pseudo-reverse your positions and pseudo-agree.

It is poor taste to take a topic such as this and reduce it to playful casual debate. </font>[/QUOTE]Again, I did no such thing. I have reversed nothing. Originally, i was commenting on Chuck's writing and the clarity, or lack therof, of his position. I never claimed that there was no issue worth discussing. Many other's chose to look beyond that, to discuss the current state of hip hop, which I am more than happy to participate in, haveing been a hop hop DJ since 1988.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Sounds like there are a lot of Geaorge Bush supporters out here...

Is "Don't Make Me Wait" by the NYC Peech boys, or any disco/house song with sexual content morally incorrect? Should we stop listening to these records as a house community? Did I get laid at the Paradise Garage because that song was played, or cause 2 people felt like ****ing? Let's just start monitoring and altering all music until it can be agreed upon as appropriate and acceptable by the new spiritual house head police. I count at least three fallacies of logic in the above statement.

[Ron la Rock]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
People often want to blame the music industry and those that profit from it for the state of hip hop, but I put the responsibility solely on the record buying public. They have choices, whether you want to admit it or not, and they choose 50 Cent and Tupac and every other Ganster rapper. These rappers sign contracts and put their image in the hands of their labels by choice. And as long as they're getting rich, they don't complain. simply not true
the public are sheep and the promotions campain
does affect how people react
question
what does gettin shot 9 times (do you actually believe this?)have 2 do with music or rhyming?
its selling death and tellin young black men its ok 2 thug thats who you really are anyways(niggers)
as usual CHUCK D is on point about the PLANTATION CORPERATIONs
who get rich on the death of brothers
&
as usuall DHP peanut gallery just doesn't get it (the bigger picture)

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Yes, I didnt say this was 'hip hops' fault (its simply a put in, put out medium) but hip hop has become a monothilic tool in the mainstream used to romanticize and glorify not only bad behavior, but bad ideas.

What are they putting in, what they getting out? Loosen up, they used to say the same things about jazz...

[darrow]

I suppose it is easy to blame the hip hop industry and hold it morally responsible for the cultural well being of blacks, but I'm wondering if that was the message that should've been interpreted from Chuck D's writing?

Why does any product that glorifies the most base in us do well? Why do people eagerly watch TV shows that display all kinds of rudeness and base behavior as normal? Why do products that seem to glamourize and dramatize black-on-black violence have people running to the stores to get the latest release?

Though I'd love to be able to identify the enemy as the hip hop industry, is that industry creating the problem or simply profiting from the problem. Is it a circular relationship. Is there a pre-existing condition that has caused the rise and popularity of the music?

What IS the problem is what I think we ought to be asking. Why do we (and I don't mean DHPers) accept and even embrace the images, themes, and scenes broadcasted and published by the media, including the music industry?

I think what I really got from Chuck D's message is a reminder to think. To think about why something is the way it is. The message was simply a reminder to dig deeper to the root of things.

I'm not making sense. I'm shutting up now. :D

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Sounds like there are a lot of Geaorge Bush supporters out here...

Is "Don't Make Me Wait" by the NYC Peech boys, or any disco/house song with sexual content morally incorrect? Should we stop listening to these records as a house community? Did I get laid at the Paradise Garage because that song was played, or cause 2 people felt like ****ing? Let's just start monitoring and altering all music until it can be agreed upon as appropriate and acceptable by the new spiritual house head police. I count at least three fallacies of logic in the above statement. </font>[/QUOTE]Edited to avoid a warning...

[ May 01, 2003, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Ghost Of Donger ]

[The Donger]

Originally posted by darrow:
I suppose it is easy to blame the hip hop industry and hold it morally responsible for the cultural well being of blacks, but I'm wondering if that was the message that should've been interpreted from Chuck D's writing?

Why does any product that glorifies the most base in us do well? Why do people eagerly watch TV shows that display all kinds of rudeness and base behavior as normal? Why do products that seem to glamourize and dramatize black-on-black violence have people running to the stores to get the latest release?

Though I'd love to be able to identify the enemy as the hip hop industry, is that industry creating the problem or simply profiting from the problem. Is it a circular relationship. Is there a pre-existing condition that has caused the rise and popularity of the music?

What IS the problem is what I think we ought to be asking. Why do we (and I don't mean DHPers) accept and even embrace the images, themes, and scenes broadcasted and published by the media, including the music industry?

I think what I really got from Chuck D's message is a reminder to think. To think about why something is the way it is. The message was simply a reminder to dig deeper to the root of things.

I'm not making sense. I'm shutting up now. :D You are making a lot more sense than the morality police.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Ron paizley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
People often want to blame the music industry and those that profit from it for the state of hip hop, but I put the responsibility solely on the record buying public. They have choices, whether you want to admit it or not, and they choose 50 Cent and Tupac and every other Ganster rapper. These rappers sign contracts and put their image in the hands of their labels by choice. And as long as they're getting rich, they don't complain. simply not true
the public are sheep and the promotions campain
does affect how people react
question
what does gettin shot 9 times (do you actually believe this?)have 2 do with music or rhyming?
its selling death and tellin young black men its ok 2 thug thats who you really are anyways(niggers)
as usual CHUCK D is on point about the PLANTATION CORPERATIONs
who get rich on the death of brothers
&
as usuall DHP peanut gallery just doesn't get it (the bigger picture) </font>[/QUOTE]Just because record labels are selling it doesn't take the responsibility off of the person who puts bvuys it. The public is who pays jimmy Iovine's salary. Believe me, if the public wanted nothing but gospel house rappers, and that's what was selling, that's what every major label would be pimping. They (the industry) are bandwagon jumpers from the get go. It's supply and demand. And personally, It think blaming "the industry" rather than the fans is a cop out.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Yes, I didnt say this was 'hip hops' fault (its simply a put in, put out medium) but hip hop has become a monothilic tool in the mainstream used to romanticize and glorify not only bad behavior, but bad ideas.

What are they putting in, what they getting out? Loosen up, they used to say the same things about jazz... </font>[/QUOTE]No 'they' didnt.

Two different things.

Knocking Jazz by white people who dont understand it or the beauty of the music because it comes from black people is different than

Black people knocking what is presently taking place in Hip Pop by black people that grew up with the shit their whole lives....and have loved it at one time.

[The Donger]

I can't believe how uptight and conservative many of you are.

Go back to the garage or music box, pop some pills, get laid, murder you sex partner, put them in the refrigerator, and eat them piece by piece.

Then come back and talk to me.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Sounds like there are a lot of Geaorge Bush supporters out here...

Is "Don't Make Me Wait" by the NYC Peech boys, or any disco/house song with sexual content morally incorrect? Should we stop listening to these records as a house community? Did I get laid at the Paradise Garage because that song was played, or cause 2 people felt like ****ing? Let's just start monitoring and altering all music until it can be agreed upon as appropriate and acceptable by the new spiritual house head police. I count at least three fallacies of logic in the above statement. </font>[/QUOTE]Edited to avoid a warning... </font>[/QUOTE]Don't do me any favors.

[mhd]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I can't believe how uptight and conservative many of you are.

Go back to the garage or music box, pop some pills, get laid, murder you sex partner, put them in the refrigerator, and eat them piece by piece.

Then come back and talk to me. death will do that to you

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I can't believe how uptight and conservative many of you are.Thats real funny, comming from a http://www.statuskuo.com/ikonboard/emoticons/dannyb.gif

[bombay records]

Lots of old-folk-style complaining and no solutions proposed. What do you want to do, ban it? Or do we support free speech?

There is obviously a huge market for this stuff, now ask why. Why, exactly, is a bulletproof vest such an American fashion statement in 2003? I don't see too many kids wanting to dress up in daishikis and dance around to Arrested Development.

I don't know, I just feel like a lot of this energy would be better directed towards trying to fix the social problems that are plaguing America, help make the world the kids are going to inherit a better place, rather than bitching about what they are listening to.

If my choices in life were jail, the army, or a shitty min. wage job, I'd probably be making some pretty aggro music & fashion choices too.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I can't believe how uptight and conservative many of you are.

Go back to the garage or music box, pop some pills, get laid, murder you sex partner, put them in the refrigerator, and eat them piece by piece.

Then come back and talk to me. death will do that to you </font>[/QUOTE]So will maturity.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by darrow:
I suppose it is easy to blame the hip hop industry and hold it morally responsible for the cultural well being of blacks, but I'm wondering if that was the message that should've been interpreted from Chuck D's writing?

Why does any product that glorifies the most base in us do well? Why do people eagerly watch TV shows that display all kinds of rudeness and base behavior as normal? Why do products that seem to glamourize and dramatize black-on-black violence have people running to the stores to get the latest release?

Though I'd love to be able to identify the enemy as the hip hop industry, is that industry creating the problem or simply profiting from the problem. Is it a circular relationship. Is there a pre-existing condition that has caused the rise and popularity of the music?

What IS the problem is what I think we ought to be asking. Why do we (and I don't mean DHPers) accept and even embrace the images, themes, and scenes broadcasted and published by the media, including the music industry?

I think what I really got from Chuck D's message is a reminder to think. To think about why something is the way it is. The message was simply a reminder to dig deeper to the root of things.

I'm not making sense. I'm shutting up now. :D your post makes a lot of sense but I think that Chuck D's message was a little more than think...no hip hop is not the root of all evil but it is a playing factor in why we have so many black/latino men in prison, dead, drug dealing..blah blah blah...it is a factor that we cannot ignore...

[Ron la Rock]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Thanx for clearing that up for me gurl graemlins/thumbsup.gif This battle will never go away until the real media, politicians, entertainers and leaders intervene. This form of our culture is making Willie Lynch Prophecy ring true with some of us helping to exterminate our existence. Talk about generational curses

Willie Lynch Speech on Controlling Slaves (http://www.duboislc.org/html/WillieLynch.html) Thank Disco lady
thank you thankyou

[The Donger]

I wasn't doing you a favor, I was respecting G-Man.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by bombay records:
Lots of old-folk-style complaining and no solutions proposed. What do you want to do, ban it? Or do we support free speech?

There is obviously a huge market for this stuff, now ask why. Why, exactly, is a bulletproof vest such an American fashion statement in 2003? I don't see too many kids wanting to dress up in daishikis and dance around to Arrested Development.

I don't know, I just feel like a lot of this energy would be better directed towards trying to fix the social problems that are plaguing America, help make the world the kids are going to inherit a better place, rather than bitching about what they are listening to.

If my choices in life were jail, the army, or a shitty min. wage job, I'd probably be making some pretty aggro music & fashion choices too. And what exactly does your response suggest?

If you bothered to read through the thread, you would see that our discussion is about the influence of the content of current Hip-Hop on the culture of violence in the community. No blame has been dispensed.

[ May 01, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I wasn't doing you a favor, I was respecting G-Man. So why let the board know you were on the verge of saying something you shouldn't? You remind me of the kid in the schoolyard that asked everyone to hold him back.

Some issues shouldn't be given a cursory examination or a half-judgement.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bombay records:
Lots of old-folk-style complaining and no solutions proposed. What do you want to do, ban it? Or do we support free speech?

There is obviously a huge market for this stuff, now ask why. Why, exactly, is a bulletproof vest such an American fashion statement in 2003? I don't see too many kids wanting to dress up in daishikis and dance around to Arrested Development.

I don't know, I just feel like a lot of this energy would be better directed towards trying to fix the social problems that are plaguing America, help make the world the kids are going to inherit a better place, rather than bitching about what they are listening to.

If my choices in life were jail, the army, or a shitty min. wage job, I'd probably be making some pretty aggro music & fashion choices too. And what exactly does your response suggest?

And can you see that acceptance of the condition is required prior to development of a solution? </font>[/QUOTE]Damn...this is it in a nut shell...

and who is to say that WE who understand the consequences of what is happening with a movement like hip hop aren't trying to make changes and come up with solutions...

what if the degradation of white people was on the line...would we think differently?

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Yes, I didnt say this was 'hip hops' fault (its simply a put in, put out medium) but hip hop has become a monothilic tool in the mainstream used to romanticize and glorify not only bad behavior, but bad ideas.

What are they putting in, what they getting out? Loosen up, they used to say the same things about jazz... </font>[/QUOTE]No 'they' didnt.

Two different things.

Knocking Jazz by white people who dont understand it or the beauty of the music because it comes from black people is different than

Black people knocking what is presently taking place in Hip Pop by black people that grew up with the shit their whole lives....and have loved it at one time. </font>[/QUOTE]Try again, this is what it's really about:

Jazz was a scene full of pimps, hustlers, drug dealers, and HARDCORE HEROIN ABUSERS. They all wanted to do dope to try and play like Bird, but I AINT BLAMING CHARLIE PARKER.

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I wasn't doing you a favor, I was respecting G-Man. So why let the board know you were on the verge of saying something you shouldn't? You remind me of the kid in the schoolyard that asked everyone to hold him back.

Some issues shouldn't be given a cursory examination or a half-judgement. </font>[/QUOTE]So people would understand the reason behind my edit.

I never asked to be held back if I was involved in a fight, I was too busy fighting.

BTW, I don't fight anymore. It's wrong, and I didn't learn it from punk or hip-hop.

[mhd]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Yes, I didnt say this was 'hip hops' fault (its simply a put in, put out medium) but hip hop has become a monothilic tool in the mainstream used to romanticize and glorify not only bad behavior, but bad ideas.

What are they putting in, what they getting out? Loosen up, they used to say the same things about jazz... </font>[/QUOTE]No 'they' didnt.

Two different things.

Knocking Jazz by white people who dont understand it or the beauty of the music because it comes from black people is different than

Black people knocking what is presently taking place in Hip Pop by black people that grew up with the shit their whole lives....and have loved it at one time. </font>[/QUOTE]Try again, this is what it's really about:

Jazz was a scene full of pimps, hustlers, drug dealers, and HARDCORE HEROIN ABUSERS. They all wanted to do dope to try and play like Bird, but I AINT BLAMING CHARLIE PARKER. </font>[/QUOTE]just when you thought it could not get any worse

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Ashaki:

what if the degradation of white people was on the line...would we think differently? If you want to make a comparison, I already stated that I DON'T BLAME MARILY MANSON , OZZY OSBOURNE OR VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES FOR ****ED UP WHITE KIDS.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I wasn't doing you a favor, I was respecting G-Man. So why let the board know you were on the verge of saying something you shouldn't? You remind me of the kid in the schoolyard that asked everyone to hold him back.

Some issues shouldn't be given a cursory examination or a half-judgement. </font>[/QUOTE]So people would understand the reason behind my edit.

I never asked to be held back if I was involved in a fight, I was too busy fighting.

BTW, I don't fight anymore. It's wrong, and I didn't learn it from punk or hip-hop. </font>[/QUOTE]Donger - point taken.

My suggestion is that the issue be respected long enough to be thoroughly examined. We are an interestingly powerful body of people. We also continually miss the opportunity to effect change.

Just as I wouldn't approach a discussion about the Holocaust, the Opium War, the Reservationism of the Indegeous American with a suggestion to lighten up, neither do I approach the existence of violence and destruction in the inner cities of the USA in the same manner.

There are times to joke and times to roll up one's sleeves.

[ May 01, 2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[The Donger]

Who said I was joking about this matter?

I am disagreeing with you.

Get over it.

[Bold Soul]

My further point is that, for a society to function for the better of its citizenry, personal responsibility must be supported by civic and social responsibility.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:

what if the degradation of white people was on the line...would we think differently? If you want to make a comparison, I already stated that I DON'T BLAME MARILY MANSON , OZZY OSBOURNE OR VIOLENT VIDEO GAMES FOR ****ED UP WHITE KIDS. </font>[/QUOTE]You don’t understand the relationship between art and funemental, core, metaphysical beliefs about our selves and the world we live in, either enforcing them, influencing them, or critiquing another view?

As for me, don’t throw me the red haring Jew boy, I never said ‘Hip Hop’ was responsible for shit.

[bombay records]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
And what exactly does your response suggest?

If you bothered to read through the thread, you would see that our discussion is about the influence of the content of current Hip-Hop on the culture of violence in the community. No blame has been dispensed. [/QB][/QUOTE]

I've "bothered" to read the thread, thanks. While I realise that the talk is about the influence on the community, I am suggesting that blaming the music is a pretty simplistic way to look at things. It sure seems to me (as a white Canadian looking in, admittedly) that society influences music/fashion a lot more than the other way around.

And what does "blame" have to do with anything? Maybe I skimmed that part.

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
My further point is that, for a society to function for the better of its citizenry, personal responsibility must be supported by civic and social responsibility. Is that a line from George Bush?

Sorry, i didn't vote for him.

[Bold Soul]

double post

[ May 01, 2003, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by bombay records:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
And what exactly does your response suggest?

If you bothered to read through the thread, you would see that our discussion is about the influence of the content of current Hip-Hop on the culture of violence in the community. No blame has been dispensed. </font>[/QUOTE]
I've "bothered" to read the thread, thanks. While I realise that the talk is about the influence on the community, I am suggesting that blaming the music is a pretty simplistic way to look at things. It sure seems to me (as a white Canadian looking in, admittedly) that society influences music/fashion a lot more than the other way around.

And what does "blame" have to do with anything? Maybe I skimmed that part. Five pages of posts and I have yet to see a suggestion of blame.

[ May 01, 2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by bombay records:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
And what exactly does your response suggest?

If you bothered to read through the thread, you would see that our discussion is about the influence of the content of current Hip-Hop on the culture of violence in the community. No blame has been dispensed. </font>[/QUOTE]I've "bothered" to read the thread, thanks. While I realise that the talk is about the influence on the community, I am suggesting that blaming the music is a pretty simplistic way to look at things. It sure seems to me (as a white Canadian looking in, admittedly) that society influences music/fashion a lot more than the other way around.

And what does "blame" have to do with anything? Maybe I skimmed that part. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Maybe that's why you don't get it, you're on the outside looking in...

peace

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
My further point is that, for a society to function for the better of its citizenry, personal responsibility must be supported by civic and social responsibility. Is that a line from George Bush?

Sorry, i didn't vote for him. </font>[/QUOTE]How can one be a Platinum + member of this discussion board (as well as Statuskuo) and not understand the effect of certain words and their delivery?

If one has class, one watches what they infer.

[bombay records]

I can't find any assertions of blame either, so why are you bringing it up? My initial point was about solutions to the problem.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by RaHaAn81:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Thanx for clearing that up for me gurl graemlins/thumbsup.gif This battle will never go away until the real media, politicians, entertainers and leaders intervene. This form of our culture is making Willie Lynch Prophecy ring true with some of us helping to exterminate our existence. Talk about generational curses

Willie Lynch Speech on Controlling Slaves (http://www.duboislc.org/html/WillieLynch.html) So true. But people just keep graemlins/sleep2.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, right to the graves

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bombay records:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
And what exactly does your response suggest?

If you bothered to read through the thread, you would see that our discussion is about the influence of the content of current Hip-Hop on the culture of violence in the community. No blame has been dispensed. </font>[/QUOTE]I've "bothered" to read the thread, thanks. While I realise that the talk is about the influence on the community, I am suggesting that blaming the music is a pretty simplistic way to look at things. It sure seems to me (as a white Canadian looking in, admittedly) that society influences music/fashion a lot more than the other way around.

And what does "blame" have to do with anything? Maybe I skimmed that part. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe that's why you don't get it, you're on the outside looking in...

peace [/QB][/QUOTE]

Maybe the fact that he is an outsider enables him to see more logically rather than filtered through emotions and biases, clouding his judgement... maybe like an "insider" would.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by bombay records:
I can't find any assertions of blame either, so why are you bringing it up? My initial point was about solutions to the problem. Two portions of your original post - as a courtesy.


Originally posted by bombay records:
Lots of old-folk-style complaining and no solutions proposed. What do you want to do, ban it? Or do we support free speech?

I don't know, I just feel like a lot of this energy would be better directed towards trying to fix the social problems that are plaguing America, help make the world the kids are going to inherit a better place, rather than bitching about what they are listening to.You'll notice your inferences to "bitching" and "better directed energy", as well as "complaining and no solutions proposed".

[ May 01, 2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bombay records:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
And what exactly does your response suggest?

If you bothered to read through the thread, you would see that our discussion is about the influence of the content of current Hip-Hop on the culture of violence in the community. No blame has been dispensed. </font>[/QUOTE]I've "bothered" to read the thread, thanks. While I realise that the talk is about the influence on the community, I am suggesting that blaming the music is a pretty simplistic way to look at things. It sure seems to me (as a white Canadian looking in, admittedly) that society influences music/fashion a lot more than the other way around.

And what does "blame" have to do with anything? Maybe I skimmed that part. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe that's why you don't get it, you're on the outside looking in...

peace </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe the fact that he is an outsider enables him to see more logically rather than filtered through emotions and biases, clouding his judgement... maybe like an "insider" would. [/QB][/QUOTE]

of course it's emotional for most of us, because we are the ones being affected, just like slavery, I wouldn't expect an outsider to be as "emotional" about the affects of slavery as I would be as a Black woman...my judgment is not clouded at all...my experience allows me to be observant and razor sharp when it comes to understanding such social issues...

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
How can one be a Platinum + member of this discussion board (as well as Statuskuo) By posting a lot.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by bombay records:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
And what exactly does your response suggest?

If you bothered to read through the thread, you would see that our discussion is about the influence of the content of current Hip-Hop on the culture of violence in the community. No blame has been dispensed. </font>[/QUOTE]I've "bothered" to read the thread, thanks. While I realise that the talk is about the influence on the community, I am suggesting that blaming the music is a pretty simplistic way to look at things. It sure seems to me (as a white Canadian looking in, admittedly) that society influences music/fashion a lot more than the other way around.

And what does "blame" have to do with anything? Maybe I skimmed that part. </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe that's why you don't get it, you're on the outside looking in...

peace </font>[/QUOTE]Maybe the fact that he is an outsider enables him to see more logically rather than filtered through emotions and biases, clouding his judgement... maybe like an "insider" would. </font>[/QUOTE]of course it's emotional for most of us, because we are the ones being affected, just like slavery, I wouldn't expect an outsider to be as "emotional" about the affects of slavery as I would be as a Black woman...my judgment is not clouded at all...my experience allows me to be observant and razor sharp when it comes to understanding such social issues... [/QB][/QUOTE]

More bullshit

[bombay records]

[/QB]Maybe that's why you don't get it, you're on the outside looking in...

peace [/QB][/QUOTE]

Sometimes I think this sentence should pop up on the screen of anyone logging into this message board who is not black.

[Bold Soul]

Another attack.

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Ashaki:

of course it's emotional for most of us, because we are the ones being affected, just like slavery, I wouldn't expect an outsider to be as "emotional" about the affects of slavery as I would be as a Black woman...my judgment is not clouded at all...my experience allows me to be observant and razor sharp when it comes to understanding such social issues... Emotions cloud judgment = Fact

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:

of course it's emotional for most of us, because we are the ones being affected, just like slavery, I wouldn't expect an outsider to be as "emotional" about the affects of slavery as I would be as a Black woman...my judgment is not clouded at all...my experience allows me to be observant and razor sharp when it comes to understanding such social issues... Emotions cloud judgment = Fact </font>[/QUOTE]Emotions are guides to higher levels of thinking. Those who resist their emotions resist the impetus to seek deeper levels of fact and their judgements can not be trusted.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by bombay records:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Maybe that's why you don't get it, you're on the outside looking in...

peace [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Sometimes I think this sentence should pop up on the screen of anyone logging into this message board who is not black. [/QB][/QUOTE]


heeeeeeeeeeeeere we go...
graemlins/bolt.gif

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
What I'm saying is it wasn't Keith Richard's and Mickj Jaggers job to be "positive" for the white community (man the drugs they used to do and all the seeds they have running around)...

What makes you think it's hip-hop's job to be positive for the black community?

Get over it, music is music, life is ****ed up, and I AIN'T BLAMING MARILYN MANSON FOR COLUMBINE! How dare you to even make that statement. It is hip hop's job to keep it real and the artist of hip hop are being overpowered by the flashy, fast life style, living carelessly non-artist. These folk are not real artist of hip hop, these are artist of trashy, exploitive ghetto lyrics. Yes, they are the culprits and yes they share in the responsibility. These cats do not care that our children look up to them, they believe it's okay to live in the ghetto, become rich and create an even bigger ghetto. There are not preaching shit but how to make our prison systems more functional. Hell, Ghetto Rap is a multi-Billion dollar business, that make drug use okay, that keep our prisons & funeral homes full and let's not mention how the real Corporate Execs are profiting off of the ignorance.

[Hk]

I think Chuck hit it right on the money!...Sorry you literary critics, turn in your resignation.

The issues seemingly are:
Hatred Among us/lo-self esteem
Media images
The Benjamin Franklin worshiper

Here's my answer:

They get it from no belief in The Creator and lo-self esteem.

(no bad hunh, my posts was gonna be worse)... graemlins/acclaim.gif

[The Donger]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
What I'm saying is it wasn't Keith Richard's and Mickj Jaggers job to be "positive" for the white community (man the drugs they used to do and all the seeds they have running around)...

What makes you think it's hip-hop's job to be positive for the black community?

Get over it, music is music, life is ****ed up, and I AIN'T BLAMING MARILYN MANSON FOR COLUMBINE! How dare you to even make that statement. It is hip hop's job to keep it real and the artist of hip hop are being overpowered by the flashy, fast life style, living carelessly non-artist. These folk are not real artist of hip hop, these are artist of trashy, exploitive ghetto lyrics. Yes, they are the culprits and yes they share in the responsibility. These cats do not care that our children look up to them, they believe it's okay to live in the ghetto, become rich and create an even bigger ghetto. There are not preaching shit but how to make our prison systems more functional. Hell, Ghetto Rap is a multi-Billion dollar business, that make drug use okay, that keep our prisons & funeral homes full and let's not mention how the real Corporate Execs are profiting off of the ignorance. </font>[/QUOTE]I make that statement by thinking about it, then typing it on a message board.

Just like everyone else on the DHP.

[Mack-Williams]

Music is not the root of the problem. It's the parents who are the problem. If you take music away from the world the world will be the same, better yet if might be even worse. I grew up on NWA, Too Short, Ghetto Boys. I loved this stuff, but I am far from a Thug. You know why, my father and mother wasn't having that. Kids need to be involved in things at a early age rather it be music, dancing or sports. Most kids who take the wrong route happens because of the crowd they hang around or two much time on their hands. Then you have to think about if you are a kid and you are a Thug more than likely your kids will go up to be Thugs. All I am saying is Music is not the problem. It serves its purpose for us to listen to and be entertain. By the way I love 50 album.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Donger you are really something else ;) What? I have no idea but keep it coming smile.gif

[Mike Barnes]

Say Donger, In reference to your comment'What makes you think it's hip-hop's job to be positive for the black community', response, Well, For those of us that's from the black community(I'm not leaving you out/You could be from around the way also money), Who have a strong knowledge on how Hiphop originally started in the Bronx(Early 70's)know exactly what Chuck(Chuck D)is saying with his comments, To me, Hiphop started as a love for all in the community to come together and have a good time musically(Starting out with cats like Grandmaster Flowers,Pete Dj Jones,Kool Herc,Maboya,Dj Hollywood,etc)in the early years, And all of these cats(And others)had a love for the community and for music hard, And even though you would sometimes have static between some cats or crews back in the day, The cats who were putting the music and the Throwdowns(parties)together had a very big responsibility to keep everything in order and give the people in the community a place to get loose/Dance(Rocking in the Parks)on the regular, And as far as HipHop being Positive in the black community, When cats/ladies started to make records, The artform evolved when Mc's like Mele Mel,Grandmaster Caz,Kool Moe D,Prince Dj Whipper Whip,Dotta Rock,Sponnie G and others, came on the scene in the mid to late 70's with more creativity being placed on the lyrics, And there was static between crews back then, But the trend was to show your talent(Or lack of talent), to just rock a party and have a good time by all(Even cats/ladies who were not from the community were always welcome, as long as you don't start bugging(Starting trouble)and get that head put to bed/Getting ****ed up for starting trouble), Also, The Artists from the early 80's set trends on making very good music, that either made you party hard or had a theme or message to make you think(conscious thought provoking lyrics), But when Schooly D from Philadelphia came out around 1986/87(One of the first cats to come out with the gangster type shit), Talking about wetting(Shooting)cats and being very disrespectful to women, The Record industry saw a more better way to pimp alot of the cats/ladies who were trying to get down with making a record or getting a recording contract. That(Schooly D making those weak Gangster records)To me, Was the beginning of Hiphop losing alot of it's responsibility in the community(Even though Schooly D received very little airplay in New York at that timeframe(1986/87)It was enough airplay to create a buzz not only in New York, but in other cites also(Like California were cats like NWA,Ice Tea grew very popular from biting Schooly D's style), Hiphop has always had cats like the Zulu Nation(Afrika Bambatta/Jazzy J,Red Alert,etc),Van Silk(Legendary Hiphop promoter)Kool Herc,Kurtis Blow,Kool Moe D,KRS-One,Chuck(Chuck D)Stetosonic(Especially Daddy O and Delite),Pete Dj Jones,Mike Concipcion/Former Legendary Gangleader in Los Angeles ,Always promote positive Rap/Hiphop music through the years, So the reponsibility has always been there, Its seems to me that alot of the rap(Not HipHop)audience of today have not only no knowledge of Hiphop history, But alot of the Rap Audience of today Don't care about Hiphop History(Damn shame), And i feel that if cats were alot more committed and dedicated to being informed and learning about the many legends and pioneers who started this whole business for alot of cats to Make large stacks of money and the sacrifices these cats/ladies had to go through just to get in the studio and make a record, Then get jerked out of money once there record comes off, The rap audience of today will have more of an appreciation for cats like Dead Prez,The Roots,Common,Talik Kwelib,Channel Live,Poor Rightous Teachers,Most Def,etc, Also, I'm very glad that Chuck gave much praise and respect to Eddie Cheeba, Who was one of the cats who made the Hiphop scene strong back in the early to mid 70's, and Edddie Chebba is one of the most respected Mc's(Not Rappers)to ever spit(rhyme)on the mic, And one more Thing, Donger, Didn't you make a comment a while ago about Hank Shocklee(One of the Founders/Producers for Public Enemy)saying he(Hank Shocklee)was weak or wack, On another board(Don't want to say the name because Gman will definitely give me Fedtime UpNorth/Jail), But, Donger, if you made that comment about Hank Shocklee, Would you care to give your reasons why you feel he's weak or wack, I'm not coming hard at you my man, I'm just passing around information, If you didn't make the comment about Hank Shocklee, Then it's my mistake.
Later
Mike Barnes

P.S. I definitely agree with Kim Lighfoot and Mike Johnson on everything that they said in reference to the Chuck D article, Say Kim Lightfoot, The work that you put in at Ray Hands spot(Lofta)in the 90's will always be missed my man.

[The Donger]

Kids need to start drug use early (young teens to early 20s) so they are sober during the time in thier life when they actually need to be responsible. Like in thier 30s.

[Koffy Brown]

It's solely the parents fault...mkay....

remember when you were in high school and as soon as you got out of the house you got higher than a kite or drunk as hell and cussed like a sailor and people who didn't know you probably made very wrong assumptions about your parents...well, contrary to popular belief...the media has become a form of parenting...we are not taking the responsibility of parenting off of parents, but in today's society there are other dominating factors that come into play in the shaping of our youth...hip hop being one...

[The Donger]

I think kids should join gangs.

[The Donger]

Mike, I was never a PE fan, too noisy for my tastes...

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
Music is not the root of the problem. It's the parents who are the problem. If you take music away from the world the world will be the same, better yet if might be even worse. I grew up on NWA, Too Short, Ghetto Boys. I loved this stuff, but I am far from a Thug. You know why, my father and mother wasn't having that. Kids need to be involved in things at a early age rather it be music, dancing or sports. Most kids who take the wrong route happens because of the crowd they hang around or two much time on their hands. Then you have to think about if you are a kid and you are a Thug more than likely your kids will go up to be Thugs. All I am saying is Music is not the problem. It serves its purpose for us to listen to and be entertain. By the way I love 50 album. Music if part of the problem. Yes, as a parent I am raising my children, as a matter a fact our family are beating the odds of non-existent full family with the mother and father present. But this generation is far more exposed than we were. Everything comes faster and when these children hit adolescence it is more critical to be involved when peer pressure is on. Of course pre-teens and teenagers don't want to hear what we have to say (the usual teen experience) but these days it's different.

As I stated before the difference is made when we become involved. I complain and write and participate as much as I can. Bottomline I am raising 4 children (heirs of greatness) to be whatever they want to be and never sell themselves short. I teach them to fight for what they believe in and everything they do is done to the best of their ability, and never let anyone tell them that they are not good enough.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I think kids should join gangs. To me this is far too serious of a topic so I'll be gone...but it is good to know that some of us are paying attention to what's going on with our youth and society, that we want our people to take responsibility for their actions and that we are committed to change...


peace

[The Donger]

**** it, it aint nobody's business...

[ May 01, 2003, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: Ghost Of Donger ]

[bombay records]

50 Cent has been the #1 album up here in Canada for a while now. "In Da Club" plays every five minutes on the radio and video channels, often to unsupervised children of every race and class. And yet, remarkably, our already-low murder rate has not gone up.

Bold Soul says I'm blaming people, fine. Sure, I'm blaming. America: sort your shit out. Stop killing each other and everyone around you. Stop throwing so many people in jail. Get out and vote - hello, black voter participation? Where are you? Encourage and organise other people to vote. And when it's time to vote, don't vote for another white plutocrat who fosters a climate of fear. Teach your children well and take responsibility for their lives.

Oh, and on a final note, I really like the 50 Cent album.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by bombay records:
50 Cent has been the #1 album up here in Canada for a while now. "In Da Club" plays every five minutes on the radio and video channels, often to unsupervised children of every race and class. And yet, remarkably, our already-low murder rate has not gone up.

Bold Soul says I'm blaming people, fine. Sure, I'm blaming. America: sort your shit out. Stop killing each other and everyone around you. Stop throwing so many people in jail. Get out and vote - hello, black voter participation? Where are you? Encourage and organise other people to vote. And when it's time to vote, don't vote for another white plutocrat who fosters a climate of fear. Teach your children well and take responsibility for their lives.

Oh, and on a final note, I really like the 50 Cent album. I said no such thing.

Now feel free to drive back to your safe neighborhood after the party is over.

[mhd]

no skin in the game

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by mhd:
no skin in the game Indeed.

[imported_Gman]

This topic was going good. Don't let it degenerate .

-G

[ May 01, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Gman ]

[bombay records]

Yeah, right, the dumb white boy doesn't know what he's talking about. The classic DHP fallback position.

We have a lot of safe neighbourhoods here in Canada. Free healthcare, good social safety net, decent schools. We pay a LOT of taxes for all this, but I think it's worth it. You should check it out sometime.

[Ron la Rock]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ron paizley:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
People often want to blame the music industry and those that profit from it for the state of hip hop, but I put the responsibility solely on the record buying public. They have choices, whether you want to admit it or not, and they choose 50 Cent and Tupac and every other Ganster rapper. These rappers sign contracts and put their image in the hands of their labels by choice. And as long as they're getting rich, they don't complain. simply not true
the public are sheep and the promotions campain
does affect how people react
question
what does gettin shot 9 times (do you actually believe this?)have 2 do with music or rhyming?
its selling death and tellin young black men its ok 2 thug thats who you really are anyways(niggers)
as usual CHUCK D is on point about the PLANTATION CORPERATIONs
who get rich on the death of brothers
&
as usuall DHP peanut gallery just doesn't get it (the bigger picture) </font>[/QUOTE]Just because record labels are selling it doesn't take the responsibility off of the person who puts bvuys it. The public is who pays jimmy Iovine's salary. Believe me, if the public wanted nothing but gospel house rappers, and that's what was selling, that's what every major label would be pimping. They (the industry) are bandwagon jumpers from the get go. It's supply and demand. And personally, It think blaming "the industry" rather than the fans is a cop out. </font>[/QUOTE]while I do not make any excuses for what the audience buys and where and what the public is willing 2 listen to and you are right folk eat this bullsh*t up
HOWEVER
this madness gets the promotions from the corperations this is what people are being told what is hot as apposed to the audience dictating the trends
the main outlets mtv,bet,most of radio,etc are all part of a system now more than ever the only stuff recieving any aair play is what product they think we should here in other words the only music getting pushed is the stuff with the paper already behind it
not what is hot on the street/but what will be hot on the street
the problem with the audience of hip hop-[ now and when i was a shorty is that WE the people dictated every aspect of the movement we said what we liked the labels espec the majors (back the indie labels/dance labels really gave a place to grow)didn't understand it at all nor had no controll as they do now
the audience is lazy/stagnet theres barely any grassroots movement nor do most of todays so-called hiphop heads understand the idea of live in your face events where everyone is apart of it a lot of these bling ego maniacs clowns have taken that
away from them and since a generation raised on rap and not in hip hop it theres a lot of insecuritys about wether I'm really part of this?
and do i have a say so in this at all from the shorties so whatevers thrown at them they believe the hype
the hype machine is very powerful
also the sheep mentality do I really have to explain this 1?
come on man you cats know this I assume

also
the word INDUSTRY has been thrown around so much
(including on this board)
and most people have no idea how this works and affects everything we see and hear
espec from the majors the kids and even adults
still think people are getting on because there good or "hot" no!
its because you play the nasty game(capitolism=pimp=ho)
and believe its a nasty treacherous game
and believe they are not trying 2 hear about what the artist wants nor artistic integrity or anything intellegent comin from blackmen its still a racist forum even though a lot of these record execs & A&R who are white think they are hip hop now and act like the bro's or what they think brothers act like (ya know the whole niggers & wiggers fatcor)up in these offices
talkin about the streets and ghetto's
(believe me folks you see this behind the scene sh*t 2 believe it)

and what we don't and want 2 hear
if you want see love n hate umong black n white folk) join the rec Industry

as far as
50 is concerned ain't dope at all some good 1 liners here and there but puh-leaze he's the hard version Mase

[Bold Soul]

To reiterate:

This isn't like Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry singing about sexual euphemisms, or the Rolling Stones or the Doors using drug euphemisms - these are SPECIFIC calls for crime and violence delivered in the language of the streets - a language that is developed PRIOR to its use in hip-hop lyrics.

Art uses metaphors and superlatives to demonstrate an idea in a medium.

Someone point out the metaphors in use here:


There ain't shit in this world deeper than loyalty and love
(Except loyalty and love, between thugs)
For you, I pull up in the whip and spray the whole strip
(For you, I walk up close and lay a nigga's kin)
For you, there ain't a damn thing that I won't do
I'm a Thug, this my way I show, my love for you
(Nigga for you, I get the coke, I'ma turn it into cash)
For you, if we go broke, we gon' rob a nigga ass
(For you, if we get knocked, I'ma have to take the weight
'Cause with a record like yours dogg, you ain't stayin' upstate)
Nigga for you, I kill a whole God damn crew (Why?)
'Cause I know you'd do the same thing too...haha
I ride, you ride for me, my enemies your enemies
How could you not love a Thug like me?

Again - this is very specific language spoken in the tongue of the street.

[mhd]

Originally posted by bombay records:
Yeah, right, the dumb white boy doesn't know what he's talking about. The classic DHP fallback position.

classic

[Bold Soul]

The reason why people who aren't from the street aren't effected by messages of lyrics in Hip-Hop is because there aren't any psychological triggers to the sort of behavior it influences.

"In the hood niggas know, how I handle my problems
I walk up close, and I fo', fo' revolve 'em"

To someone from a walk of life other than the street, this is a catchy rhyme that sounds good over beats. To someone who is from the street, who hears this language daily, uses it to communicate, to survive, there is a totally different effect.

And when one debates the effect without understanding the sociological and environmental conditions, they are ignorant of the fact and unqualified to discuss the issue.

[ May 01, 2003, 04:43 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Pete Nice]

this is first and foremost about money. whatever will get people money, no matter the tint of the skin. just look around. it's all about image and then living it. if we as a society are ignorant enough to buy into what 'they' sell us, then it keeps the cycle going. music is not the sole reason there is youth violence. everyone needs to check that b.s. at the door. real life creates art and art perpetuates that life. we sell each other out everyday by giving into stereotypes and buying into images sold to us by people who are ruled by money and greed. everything that you buy is a vote on what you want more of. the only solution is to stay strong in what you beleive to be right and never give in on that. if this is what the people want then this what they get. sad enough, but true.
maybe there needs to be more post about artist who are having a positive influence on society.... i would like to see that thread with six, seven pages of replies!

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by square root:
maybe there needs to be more post about artist who are having a positive influence on society.... i would like to see that thread with six, seven pages of replies! I would to, squareroot - but positive posts are killed on the DHP.

[Pete Nice]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by square root:
maybe there needs to be more post about artist who are having a positive influence on society.... i would like to see that thread with six, seven pages of replies! I would to, squareroot - but positive posts are killed on the DHP. </font>[/QUOTE]can you only get your point across to people by killing them with negativity? i guess it's hard to learn from other people by respecting an opposing view point.... what do i know?

[mhd]

[ May 01, 2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: mhd ]

[rob gregory]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
To reiterate:

This isn't like Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry singing about sexual euphemisms, or the Rolling Stones or the Doors using drug euphemisms - these are SPECIFIC calls for crime and violence delivered in the language of the streets - a language that is developed PRIOR to its use in hip-hop lyrics.

Art uses metaphors and superlatives to demonstrate an idea in a medium.

Someone point out the metaphors in use here:


There ain't shit in this world deeper than loyalty and love
(Except loyalty and love, between thugs)
For you, I pull up in the whip and spray the whole strip
(For you, I walk up close and lay a nigga's kin)
For you, there ain't a damn thing that I won't do
I'm a Thug, this my way I show, my love for you
(Nigga for you, I get the coke, I'ma turn it into cash)
For you, if we go broke, we gon' rob a nigga ass
(For you, if we get knocked, I'ma have to take the weight
'Cause with a record like yours dogg, you ain't stayin' upstate)
Nigga for you, I kill a whole God damn crew (Why?)
'Cause I know you'd do the same thing too...haha
I ride, you ride for me, my enemies your enemies
How could you not love a Thug like me?


I think homeboy is in love...with his nigga.
Is this one of those homo-thug songs? :D

Again - this is very specific language spoken in the tongue of the street.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Ron paizley:
as far as 50 is concerned ain't dope at all some good 1 liners here and there but puh-leaze he's the hard version Mase now THAT is something we can agree on.

Seriously, you make some good points. And believe me, I have a lot of first-hand experience with the record industry. I almost went in that direction myself, but the soul-less ness of the whole thing made me step back and rethink my career. The hype machine is no doubt powerful, but I still put the responsibility in the hands of those spending the money. There is very little grass movement, that's for sure. I think this whole hip hop thing is pretty much rotting from the inside out, and that might be a good thing in the long run. Just like house, the true heads will maintain, return to the underground, evolve, and keep making hot shit. The burden, it would seem, lies with the parents, who have to mold their kids in to decent human beings despite the madness all around them.

[mhd]

madness all around them...

[Shalewa]

Wow...

This is my reality.

I sign off the computer. Check in with my son on his homework. I leave my home in Bed-Stuy and begin the walk to my after school dance company rehearsal. About a block away from the center streets are blocked by police cars in the intersections of several streets. Helicopters are hovering.Remote tv trucks are all over the place. There has been a double homicide. Two young black men are dead in the street. My students have seen them laying there as they make their ways from school to after school. In free movement time one of them falls out on the floor in the same way she has seen the bodies in the street.

What context do they have to fit this horrible and senseless (apparently the beef was about a romantic relationship gone wrong)violence into? How do they balance the very real image of a dead person in the street against the ubiquitous diamond studded image of a gansta thug prince? Why did a gun fight in the street seem like the right way for a brother to defend his honor?

Right now I got no answers. I work with kids who are labelled at-risk and today's lesson was based on creating movement for Nikki Giovanni's recording of "Ego Tripping". They got into it and left ready to make their own poems. Maybe this will be useful for them. Maybe my repeated exhortations to listen to the words and to think about what they mean will carry over into their other listening. Maybe. Maybe not...

[Pete Nice]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
Wow...

This is my reality.

I sign off the computer. Check in with my son on his homework. I leave my home in Bed-Stuy and begin the walk to my after school dance company rehearsal. About a block away from the center streets are blocked by police cars in the intersections of several streets. Helicopters are hovering.Remote tv trucks are all over the place. There has been a double homicide. Two young black men are dead in the street. My students have seen them laying there as they make their ways from school to after school. In free movement time one of them falls out on the floor in the same way she has seen the bodies in the street.

What context do they have to fit this horrible and senseless (apparently the beef was about a romantic relationship gone wrong)violence into? How do they balance the very real image of a dead person in the street against the ubiquitous diamond studded image of a gansta thug prince? Why did a gun fight in the street seem like the right way for a brother to defend his honor?

Right now I got no answers. I work with kids who are labelled at-risk and today's lesson was based on creating movement for Nikki Giovanni's recording of "Ego Tripping". They got into it and left ready to make their own poems. Maybe this will be useful for them. Maybe my repeated exhortations to listen to the words and to think about what they mean will carry over into their other listening. Maybe. Maybe not... at least you have the ability to make a positive difference... should i say you put yourself in the position to so.
there can be many answers and even more questions, but only one truth.

[Ron la Rock]

Originally posted by bombay records:
50 Cent has been the #1 album up here in Canada for a while now. "In Da Club" plays every five minutes on the radio and video channels, often to unsupervised children of every race and class. And yet, remarkably, our already-low murder rate has not gone up.

Bold Soul says I'm blaming people, fine. Sure, I'm blaming. America: sort your shit out. Stop killing each other and everyone around you. Stop throwing so many people in jail. Get out and vote - hello, black voter participation? Where are you? Encourage and organise other people to vote. And when it's time to vote, don't vote for another white plutocrat who fosters a climate of fear. Teach your children well and take responsibility for their lives.

Oh, and on a final note, I really like the 50 Cent album. extremely simplistic answer to an all complicated
real amerikkka in wich many many outsiders have a
strange romantic view of still very sad
inspit the usual nonsense on this here board have guys been paying attention at all?

hey bombay (& others) my man rent bamboozled and get real history of amerikkkas legacy of african amerikkkan value of arts image & entertainment
past n present

a lot of guys have know idea how much we need a balance of images for us and our lil brothers and sisters all of our arts and entertainmenrts gets used against us this shit has taken us back a good 100 yrs
and as 4 what they did 2 hiphop (I blame all partys mad1.gif ) its enough 2 make me wanna cry

the brothers that taught how me 2 dj were street no doubt but intellegent and guiding me i mean these cats if they saw my lil round ass with as much of a ciggarette i would get the lesson
man
the cyphers and stuff about life we use to kick it about man
now everyone is a nigga who from the hood remembers "if see a nigga smack a nigga?"
but you will never know cause all these rappin
clowns ain't ever been on real streets in there
life
well I'll stop ramblim 4 now

please just know what see as harmless
we have 2 live the reality of
Black culture
black music
& black lives should never been made
so cheap/nor pop

[Rom]

Good to see my brother back on the set, I miss you man.

Anyway, lemme add my two cents on 50 cents and this socio-cultural debate on rap...blah blah blah.

... drugs, drink, sex, lieing, cursing, stealing, lusting, gambling, cheating, dealing, 'not' turning the other cheak, whats 'good' about any of this, as conservative society would define? I bet 99% of the people on this board as well as 99% of everyone you know in life could not pass a 'I'm good' test. We try to justify our 'vices' by rationalizing our transgressions within some framework that helps us belive that 'we' are not 'bad'...just because we like debaucherous sex or binge intoxication...deep inside...we're really 'good' people. Bah. 99% of us are bad or might I even say 'evil' to the core. Some of us benifit from parents of means and good education and we've easily joined the ranks of the gainfully employed...and dont 'have' to go flat blast some 'prey' to survive. But I bet that anyone of us...would 'prey' on each other, if we thought we 'had' to, to survive. Ultimately, I fail to see how our culture, we, are any less 'bad' than this culure we endeavor to condem.

Us gainfully employed 'evil' people look on at the 'thug' culture in disgust. We say this culture is 'misleading' our youth, influencing them down a path that they may not have chosen...I say bah! Black, white, asian, latin...dont matter, we all bad, we all want to be bad, we all like being bad...and all rap music is doing is 'admitting' it!

Why do you think this gansta music, this culture is so popular? What the hell do you think 'house' is or was all about? The original house movement was about being or accepting homosexuality...and admiting it! And admitting to your acceptance of the drug culture. You're lieing your ass off if the words Acid and House are not normally used in the same breath...back in the day anyway. Ultimately, our culture came to embody the acceptance of 'all', regardless of societal 'rules'...this is 'our' house and to hell with all the judgements of everybody else. Dance how you like, look how like, dress how you like, be how you like, whatever, no code, no mold...just be. We all told society that we will not be governed by your ****ed up predudices. We can be cool with gay people, get high, wear what we want and dance by ourselves with a speaker if we feal like it! Our 'culture' was rebelious against society in our blatent acceptance of homosexuality and drug use and general rebellion against all that 'society' wanted us to be, especialy since most of 'chicago' headz were from 'bougie' upbringins. Our movement our culture was just as 'bad' or 'evil' in substance as this 'thug' culture is now.

To argue that rap music is leading youth down the path of gansterism is to argue that house leads youth down the path of homosexuality. IMO.

But lets look at it this way, the major difference between the 'house' culture and the 'thug' culture is money. We, us original house headz, were bougie...they, the rap denizens are poor mostly huh? And the simple fact is most people in the world are poor and would rather 'get rich...or die trying'. Us house headz are rich already (though many of us dont realize it). The prospect of slaving away at minimum rage just to 'survive' means shit to most people especially us. What the hell kind of life would that be anyway? You and I hardly even ever had even a nightmare about working at McDonalds.

Get rich or die trying...is this not the rule that most poor people understand anyway? In the streets...this is real life. So rappers are talking about it in public forum now. They've taken the 'evil' out of the closet and put it on TV for all to see. Whats the difference between the 'thug' movement and the house movement? They were thugs before the 'music' just as gay people were before house.

And why is this music so popular? Because the 'consumers' of this music...IDENTIFY with it? The rappers didnt create this culture...this culture ALREADY existed! I suppose homosexual artists like Boy George created the gay culture...wake up people. When you are poor from the ghetto do you dream of being 'scarface' or the employee of the month at burger king?

You, me and 99% of the population of this earth...are ANIMALS who would do whatever nececisary to survive and prosper. If that mean't dealing, pimping, stealing, killing...we'd do it. And if you dont realize this...yer the next victim of a dog eat dog society. Some of us are 'fortunate' enough to not have chosen the gansta life to make it...we are the 'majority' per se yes, but that does not make us less evil than the ganstas that provide our drugs, whores and black market goods that we 'consume' with ravenous appetite...including the MUSIC! Anybody who does not like 'In da club'... must be deaf!

The same culture that breeds 50 cents...breeds George Bushes...they're just gansters of a different 'class'. The corporation you work for right now, thats just a different kind of ganster or pimp...and they pimping you! And we have just about as much a chance of changing the general populations affinity for gansta rap as we do in changing their addiction to capitalism and democracy. You planing on quiting your job because the CEO makes 10M a year and doesnt do squat while you work 12hrs a day and make beans? Bah...I doubt it.

Pursuit of happiness is in 'control' of most people...and whether these 'pursuits' are good or evil...is irrelevant to the individual and the culture as it would seem. And who are we to say its 'wrong' to get rich or die trying...what the hell are you doing?

I cannot 'pre-judge' this gansta culture, I've lived some of it. It was necessary for my 'pusuit of happiness' at times. I also know that its the only path some people have, its all they know either by choice or consequence. So they kill each other, so they paint false pictures of reality, so they are exploited by coroporate culture who reap all the real gains, so maybe they 'influence' some youth to follow in their path...so whats new? I know they are saying 'yep, Im a gansta and dont give a damn and am here to tell ya im a gansta! You live yer life, I live mine.' Gansta Rap is now the largest and most successfull 'counter-culture' movement the world has ever seen. Heavy Metal Rock could only wish to come close to the global counter-cultural acceptance of gansta rap...cause this is the life that 99% of the worlds population lives! The message of house is only something us few 'privledged' subcribe to...and probably why our message is embraced more so by non-black Europeans...than brothers. Us bougies are few and rare.

Lemme sum this up like this, try to be honest with yourself...if you were not a bougie nigga but were born into a dead end life of poverty with few other choices...what would you do? I cant lie, I'd of pimped hos and slung rock to get paid, if I had to, and I'd of rather died trying...than work at McDonalds. What the hell would I care about a 'positive' black culture? Im trying to eat! And what the hell has my black culture done for me? Not a dammie! Other rich brothers aint lifted a finger to help me personnally. On the other hand, Pimp Daddy Shorty Mac just offered me a job slanging on the corner for 500 a week...you make the call.

Werd to the mother.

btw, I generally hate all rap music, Im a die hard disco head til I die...I just cant hate on thug culture. I dont think 'my way' is the 'right way' for everyone...I have no idea what the 'right way' is. I see no difference in the 'evil' of 'our' way vs the 'evils' in others ways. I know what I like only. Everybody else has to live their own life. I have two kids who I know will make their own decisions on life regardless of what I try to teach them just like I did. Also, I dont view 'evil' like most of yall, we're all just animals trying to pursue happiness and survive IMO. Life is simply pure survival of the fitest or the smartest or the strongest from what I see. I have no idea what happens when we die nor does it seem like percieved consequence has any bearing on the actions of others in this life. I prefer to not be a victim of 'darwinism', I chose life...by whatever means necessary, and I judge not others for their decisions in this-like-pursuit.

Behind House's message of love and happiness is the underlieing theme of rebellion, drug subscription and the 'ungodly' acceptance of homosexuality...whats the contrast with rap? Violence, murder and exploitation? Who's less evil?

We're all evil, we just sound different...and still our musics beat in the back ground. Some of us just think we are holier than thou...homosexuality is cool...murder is not...

Bah. I'll meet all yall there...you know where.

[Ron la Rock]

who said we hate all rap music???
i don't nor did i read that
we were talking about
how he is being marketed and the message it clearly sends to youth on how 2 get love in the industry wich 50 can rap about anything he wants

however when this BS is being sold as cool
like if 50 gets killed over his past involvement
the heads of his label will stand 2 make more $$$ off of him than they could if he stays alive
and of coarse the excuse will thats the life he led (maybe or not)but when pussh someones music
on that thug shit its a screwy signal

tellin kids if want 2 rapp in the game be ready 2 die 4 it
is pure BS not rappin nor rap music in itself

Rome your OPin is yours but you need 2 read again

[ May 02, 2003, 06:24 AM: Message edited by: Ron paizley ]

[the 18th letter]

There is an erosion going on. Blacks don't look at successful blacks with pride, they look at them with the " Let's rob 'em mentality." I'm 35 and when I grew up, the criminals did their thing but it was undercover. I didn't find out until I was damn near 20 that some of my family members were criminals, because that shit was done on the low low. Everybody will do what they have to do to survive, it's the way you go about it. Hip hop is glamorizing too much negative shit. Now as far as house being a way to express homosexuality? graemlins/rofl.gif Never been that for me

[Shannon]

Originally posted by fred:
This young lady (Stephanie Mwandishi Gadlin) presented this piece that she wrote at a conference @ Olive Harvey College here in Chicago last week . Pretty interesting perspective.


Famed Kenyan author Ngugi wa Thiongo once remarked: "...Language carries culture and culture carries, particularly through orature and literature, the entire body of values by which we perceive ourselves and our place in the world."

Interesting perspective. If language carries a people's culture and therefore projects a people's cultural values to others, explain to me why are we allowing our young men and women in the recording industry to use offensive, self-deprecating language disguised as song lyrics to discredit an entire people. Surely, the ancestors are not proud.

Enough with the excuses already. I love hip hop as much as the next woman, and my frustration is not another case of "playa hating," or "blaming rappers for society's social ills." That argument is tired and quite silly. Nor am I confused about parental responsibility. Yeah, I know ...if you don't like it, don't buy it. Blah...blah...blah. That is not this discussion. I simply want to know how long will we make excuses for entertainers of any kind who work hand-and-foot with compounded social ills to emasculate a group of people.

Case in point: Dr Dre (Andre Young) was recently referred to as "the original, true-blue gangsta-rap god," by Talk Magazine (April 2001). Writer Michael Daly offers a quote from Dre's boss, Interscope Records cofounder Jimmy Iovine: "Not since the Beatles or the Rolling stones has any one individual artist affected society or popular music more than Dr. Dre." His boss then goes on to say: " ...he impacts the entire continent."

Wow, that's a lot of responsibility for a record producer. Young, at age 36, has amassed about a $100 million fortune writing and producing hip hop music under the genre of gangster rap - a genre he is often credited with creating. His latest invention, Eminem, is now being promoted as the conduit for white rage. He offers musical missives about killing his wife, deranged fans and doing peculiar things to homosexuals.

No one argues that Young creates the coldest beats known to man. Brother surely has talent. The bass hook in Xxplosive on his The Chronic 2001 album, was so off the hook, R&B songstress Erykah Badu used it to rocket Bag Lady to the top of the charts. While Badu's tome expressed the plight of a impoverished woman, Dre's lyrical contribution to that mesmerizing beat included rapper Kurupt's poetic utterings:

"West coast shit nigga over dosage - imperial pistols ferocious **** a bitch; don't tease bitch, strip tease bitch Eat a bowl of these bitch, gobble the dick Hoes forgot to eat a dick can shut the **** up! Gobble and swallow a nut up, shut up and get my cash Backhanded, pimp slapped backwards and left stranded Just pop ya collar, pimp convention hoes for a dollar Six-Deuce in a plush, six-deuce impala Pimpin hoes from Texas to Guatemala Bitch niggaz paid for hoes, just to lay wit hoes Relax one night, and paid to stay wit hoes Captain Save' Em all day (bitch) well save this dick Bitch nigga, you more of a bitch than a bitch You ain't into hittin pussy, or hittin the switch You into hittin bitches off of the grip, you punk bitch"


When Talk Magazine asks the super producer the usual question about his lyrical content, inquiring about the proposed views of a late civil rights icon about the quality of his music, Dre responds: "Martin Luther King would love this." Is that right?

In another celebration of black musical success, wonder-lyricist Sean "Jay Z" Carter often writes and performs head-banging missives that have made him a wealthy and sought after celebrity. Take just one verse from the hit song,"Big Pimpin."

"You know I - thug em, **** em, love em, leave em Cause I don't ****in need em Take em out the hood, keep em lookin good But I don't ****in feed em First time they fuss I'm breezin Talkin bout, "What's the reasons?" I'm a pimp in every sense of the word, bitch Better trust than believe em In the cut where I keep em til I need a nut, til I need to beat the guts Then it's, beep beep and I'm pickin em up Let em play with the dick in the truck Many chicks wanna put Jigga fist in cuffs Divorce him and split his bucks Just because you got good head, I'ma break bread so you can be livin it up? Shit I.. parts with nothin, y'all be frontin Me give my heart to a woman? Not for nothin, never happen I'll be forever mackin Heart cold as assassins, I got no passion I got no patience And I hate waitin.. Hoe get yo' ass in And let's RI-I-I-I-I-I...."


What kind of women has he been exposed to and just whom is he talking about? A white woman? Asian? Latino? Oh, I forgot, that's not allowed. In the spirit of unity, let us not forget the sisters.

Lil' Kim (Kimberly Jones) offers the following thought-provoking observation in "She Don't Love You," from her Notorious K.I.M. release: "Is she drop-dead fine? Does she like it from behind? Is she fly? Do she got a style like mine? Does she slurp it, rub it, jerk it, ride it? Tell you how you feel when you inside it You love me, and I know she know Cuz everytime I come around, she be like "let's go" Girls know not to leave they man around me I get my hands on 'em. He puttin' rent and a Benz on m...."

Charli Baltimore offers another view in "Pimp the One You Love," on her Cold as Ice release:


"Off the hyped bit, always been the tight bitch Keep these cats in line, pay that rent on time And we'll talk about extra keys to my spot When it's extra V's in my lot, extra G's in my knots So how I managed to get damaged on 'chill with one nigga' shit I was to break me off with some more figures bitch I don't know, just caught me at the right moment Vulnerable, nigga jumped up on it With mind games, took me out of my frame I ain't even want his payback, my homey Tony Drapper He pimped for the guts and I was givin' 'em up Can't tell me I can't have any player I want And I burnt myself out tryin' to turn his ass out...."


I am sure fans of all four aforementioned artists will dismiss my ramblings and random recitation of their song lyrics as being taken out of context. Others might go as far as to tell me that these artists are merely "storytellers," much like a Eric Jerome Dickey, Terri McMillian or Omar Tyree. And please, don't get me wrong about diversity in the culture either. I understand all rappers can't be Lauryn Hill, Mos Def, Common, or a member of Dead Prez. I also know that new artists are more likely to follow the more controversial hip hop icons than buck them. The more shocking, the more vile, the more graphic, the more violent, the more sexist... the more money, the more sales... the more bling, bling.... Right or wrong?

Yet, I refuse to believe that our young people willfully set out to create songs to ridicule and embarrass their heritage, family and community. I refuse to believe that Jay-Z sat down with a pen and paper and wrote those lyrics on his own, and that those are his beliefs. Nor will I ever believe that Lil Kim wants sex without love, commitment and intimacy. I do not believe Dr. Dre hates his wife and children or wants to murder or die in a hail of bullets. I refuse to believe that many of our young brothers and sisters in the entertainment industry have little integrity, self-esteem and love.

The more I think I about it, I am convinced there must be a hip hop constitution that mandates how rappers represent musically. The mandate, in the form of a recording contract, is actually a set of commandments authored by the "music establishment," otherwise known as the "industry," to ensure the artist's marketability in an already saturated genre.

HIP HOP's (UNSPOKEN) TEN COMMANDMENTS

Commandment I: Thou must dis' black women. You are allowed to distinguish between bitches, hoes and "real sisters" only during interviews when asked to clarify your statements. You must talk about beating a woman up at least once on your CD or demo. On at least four (4) but no more than five (5) singles/demos you must talk about having rough and unprotected sex with a woman. You must also refer to your girlfriend or wife as a "bitch" in an endearing way. All music videos must reflect the aforementioned notions.You can talk about doing things to other people's mothers as acts of creative expression. You may also refer endearingly to an unplanned child as a "bastard," "shorty," "lil nigga," or "lil G." By honoring this commandment you vow to never rally behind black females or support a strong family bond. You see her only as an object for sex and to reap the repercussions of your rage. You also believe she is only out to get you.

(Supplement for females) Thou must dis' black men. Female rappers are allowed to distinguish against niggas, bustas, scrubs and punk. You must lyrically emasculate them in every way possible. On at least one (1) CD or demo you must destroy his character by either calling him a homosexual or talking about his lack of money. You are allowed to refer to your boyfriend or husband as your "nigga" in an endearing way. All music videos must reflect aforementioned notions. By honoring this Commandment you vow to never identify with the black male's struggle against white supremacy. You vow to never support a strong family bond. You also uphold the tenets that all of his problems are of his own doing. You see him as only an object for sex and money. You believe he is only out to get you.

Commandment II: Thou must kill. You must "lyrically" take the life of at least one other black person in order to secure a hit CD. This law does not promote the physical killing of another person. However, it is not against the law to assassinate another person on record. You must only talk about killing your own kind, however, or other cultures may sue you for inciting racial violence. You must express pleasure in the kill. The kill must be graphic and extensive in detail. The consumer must always be left with the feeling that taking a person's life (lyrically) was justified. Most of the lyrical murders must be done by guns, however creativity allows for poisoning, stabbings, beatings, stompings, and suffocating. You do not distinguish between male or female kills. By keeping this Commandment you vow to never claim acts of genocide publicly even when you are a victim of violent repression yourself. You also agree to "lyrical" acts of black-on-black violence, as well as prolific incidents of brutality.

Commandment III: Thou must covet. Thou must talk about lusting after things that do not belong to you. You must have an unusual craving for things that do not belong to you. Your desire must be so strong that you unwittingly uphold the second commandment. This law does not advocate you physically go after the material possessions of someone in your community. By keeping this commandment you vow to never promote a strong work ethic in your music or to speak against greed, lust and impulsive behavior. In fact, you now believe greed is healthy.

Commandment IV: Thou must have a lot of sex. You must have no fewer than three (3) songs on your CD or demo that promote sexual intercourse with one or a group of individuals. You cannot express a deep sense of love or marriage. Thou shalt not talk about commitment, bonding, and intimacy. You can only talk about sex in its purest and rawest terms. Do not use "make love," or "provide pleasure," or "pro-create." You must never mention a sexually transmitted disease in the context of these records. You can however discuss the use of contraceptives, but only if you're referring to sexual intercourse with a hoe. (See first Commandment). If you are under age 16, you may substitute sex with the "flirting," and "fantasies about being intimate with your teacher, neighbor's child, or another rapper." You must be creative in your graphic detail of sexual intercourse so to leave nothing to the imagination. The details can be slightly skewered in order to circumvent radio censors. However, this does not excuse radio edits from removing references to sex. Therefore stay ahead of the game by using clever phrases with dual and triple meanings. By keeping this Commandment, you vow to never promote unconditional or agape love in your community; promote the black family in a positive light; or uplift male/female relationships.

Commandment V: Thou must celebrate the drug culture. Thou must condone and identify with the proliferation of drugs in the black community. You should create endearing lyrical expressions to identify various narcotics and mind-altering substances. Though you are not to personally distribute or purchase illegal substances, you may allude to it lyrically. (To protect industry investment, we discourage musical confessions to crimes where the statue of limitations have not run out.) You may allude to a war on drugs,but only as justification to carry out the second commandment. You must continually suggest that selling drugs or "slangin'" produces the only legitimate income for impoverished black people. All music videos must either glamorize this lifestyle by showing the "success" of the narcotic trade, or glamorize prison living. You should refer to drug addicted citizens in comical terms that illicit disgust, laughter, fear, pity or retribution. You are never to question U.S. drug policy. You can never promote healthy living and thinking. Nor can you advocate moderation in tobacco and liquor consumption. By keeping this commandment, you vow to never discuss the impact of drug addiction among people of color; its impact on the community's overall health; its impact on the prison industrial complex; or, its impact on the black family.

Commandment VI: Thou must rarely talk about God and spirituality. You must lyrically condone atheism and a false belief system that negates the existences of a higher being. You must routinely question the existence of a god by lyrically challenging him/her/it to take your life or to grant you three wishes. You are to refer to yourself as a god who gives and takes life. You may lyrically create your own religion (see tenth commandment) based on a ghetto belief system. Thou shalt not talk about life and death as it relates to spirituality or a sense of purpose. You should never speak of scripture or religious texts. You are prohibited from acknowledging any spiritual beliefs that may have been instilled you by family. However, you may identify with a Jesus by wearing a large, diamond encrusted piece whereby you may brag about its costs. Under no circumstance are you to promote prayer, reflection, meditation, atonement, redemption, sacrifice, mercy or grace. The consumer fan base must identify with your lack of spiritual grounding by believing that the only gods are sex and money. By keeping this commandment you vow to limit your personal spiritual growth and development. You also vow to never be seen publicly in a church, synagogue, mosque, temple or other house of worship and reflection.

Commandment VII: Thou must promote capitalism. On no fewer than four (4) singles or demo records you must talk about money as if it were a living, breathing thing. You must talk about making it, taking it and the love of it. Your lyrics must always place money over love, over women, over religion (see sixth commandment). You must never talking about savings and investing. Thou can, however, say the words "currency exchange," "welfare check," "first of the month," and "food stamps." You must never talk about pooling of resources. Thou can never equate capitalism with poverty. You must never mention the IMF, WTO or Federal Reserve. In fact never mention banking or the stock market at all. Do not mention technology. Do not discuss taxing. Do not discuss the federal budget. (See Commandment V). You must promote individual wealth over community wealth. You should talk about all of your purchases, specifically naming makers/distributors of expensive jewelry, cars, clothing and liquor. Once you become a successful entertainer you should purchase a very big house and no fewer than three (3) expensive cars. Publicly, you should live within a lavish lifestyle in order to please your consumer fan base that now lives vicariously through your music. Your lifestyle should include, but not be limited to: living in exclusive communities, catering to huge entourages, routinely eating at expensive restaurants, flying to Europe for fashion shows, purchasing designer clothing only, ordering platinum and diamond encrusted jewelry for your body and teeth, purchasing expensive weapons and devices, frequent partying and purchasing big quantities of expensive liquor and tobacco/cigars. Thou should consistently ridicule those who cannot afford the aforementioned items. By keeping this commandment you vow to always promote a consumer culture v. a producer culture.

Commandment VIII: Thou cannot have a sense of history. Never ever refer to any historical event that may cause the consumer to think about his/her relation to history. Your role is to entertain, not educate. Thou art prohibited from speaking of the following: Trans-Atlantic slave trade; African holocaust: Reconstruction: the civil rights movement; the Black Power Movement; the "real" Harlem Renaissance, and so forth. You can never mention the following people: Martin Luther King Jr., Hannibal, Mansa Musa, Harriet Tubman, Sojourner Truth, David Walker, Nat Turner, George Jackson, El-hajj Malik Shabazz (Malcolm X), Jesse Jackson, Patrice Lumumba, Nelson Mandela, Winnie Mandela, Steve Biko, Louis Farrakhan, Booker T. Washington, W.E.B. DuBois, Huey Newton, Fred Hampton, Bobby Seale, Kwame Ture, Ida B. Wells, Assata Shakur...unless you are making fun of their names, causes or crusaders. (I.e., Rah Digga's Harriet Thugman). Do not mention Africa, Brazil, the Caribbean or Asia, unless to disparage. By keeping this commandment you vow to never promote a sense of awareness, a knowledge of self or the consumer's global relationship to kindred spirits.

Commandment IX: Thou must not advocate. Thou art prohibited from advocacy of anything of social redeeming value. Your lyrics must reflect a detachment from the social, political and economic reality of your community. Your lyrics can occasionally ridicule people who march, protest and advocate social causes. The consumer should never assume that thou reads newspapers, magazines or books. In other words it must appear that nothing that happens in the "real" non-entertainment world, has any personal affect on your thinking. Nor should the consumer of your CD or demo walk away with the belief that you care about anything other than the Commandments IV and VII. Never talk about the "industry." By keeping this commandment understand you must never appear at a non-entertainment-related event, unless of course you are entertaining. You must never donate money, resources or materials to needy organizations, families or causes. When questioned about this you must defend your position by claiming you are an entertainer and that's all. You can never participate in interviews discussing relevant social issues. Thou art not responsible for the behavior encouraged by your music because thou art not responsible for marketing and sales to minor, unstable individuals, or mentally ill citizens. You understand that you cannot attend rallies, sermons, marches, and picnics, festivals or workshops that have nothing to do with entertainment or the recording industry.


Commandment X: Thou must promote all things ghetto. You may never define the word ghetto or discuss its creation. You must uphold its principals and create new creeds. You must lyrically create a fictional account of ghetto living that inspires comradeship and a sense of pride among its residents. Your lyrics must create a ghetto dweller that is proud to live in the ghetto and takes offense at others moving into it. You must celebrate ghetto life by reminiscing about days in poverty and your mothers on welfare and about your fathers who were not there. Additionally, your lyrics must offer the mainstream a rare glimpse inside a "socio-economic matrix" while allowing them psychologically off the hook for the ghetto's creation. You must celebrate ghetto language, ghetto living, ghetto housing, ghetto clothing, ghetto hairstyles, ghetto sexual habits, ghetto education, and ghetto economics and ghetto self-hatred. You must romanticize poverty with tales of sex, drugs, money, creed and fear. The ghetto must become a magical place. By keeping this commandment you vow to create and then instill pride in a false culture of poverty, crime, drugs, illegitimacy, ignorance and apathy. You also vow to attribute the ghetto only to Black people. You also vow to never leave the ghetto matrix psychologically, even when your economic status changes (see seventh commandment) In other words you will remember to "keep it real."

By keeping the aforementioned commandments we, "the industry," guarantee the following:

1. Unlimited marketing success and cross-over appeal.
2. A guaranteed income
3. Fame beyond your wildest dreams
4. Unlimited (but recoupable) industry resources
5. Several music awards, citations and honors
6. Protection from community repercussions

This sacred scroll must be handed to every potential and current Black hip hop artist in the nation. While some sign, many others I am sure others have refused, as there is circumstantial evidence that supports that. Occasionally a breakthrough performer will offer lyrics that make us think, act and believe as if we have purpose and are loved in this life. Yet the majority of our youth must be forced to sign, recite and then internalize these commandments in order to guarantee their market success. I imagine if they do not sign the doctrine, they are relegated to doing poetry readings at open mics, working menial jobs, fading into relative obscurity and living in the "ghetto matrix." This must be the answer, because the truth is surely a lot more painful.

stephanie mwandisi gadlin is a Chicago-based writer who focuses on cultural and socio-political issues. In a past life she served as national press secretary to the Reverend Jesse Jackson Sr. e-Mail: StephGadlin@aol.com Fred thanks for posting this! Much respect.. For you and the writer.. I will surely be getting up with the author since she is from Chicago.. smile.gif graemlins/respekt.gif

[Cheddar]

NAS "BLACK ZOMBIES"

Yo, you believe when they say we ain't shit, we can't grow?
All we are is dope dealers, and gangstas and hoes?
And you believe when they be tellin you lie, all on the media?
They make the world look crazy to keep you inside?
Why you listen when the teachers at school
know you a young single parent out strugglin, they think you a fool
Give your kids bad grades and put 'em in dumber classes
Killin shorty future, I wonder how do we last it
Underground in they casket? Ancestors turnin
I'm learnin somethin every day, there is no Lazareth
Words like God is Greek or Latin
So if you study Egypt, you'll see the truth written by the masters
My niggaz is chillin, gettin high, relaxin
Envisionin, ownin shit, yo it can happen
What do we own? Not enough land, not enough homes
Not enough banks, to give a brother a loan
What do we own? The skin on our backs, we run and we ask
for reperations, then they hit us with tax
And insurance if we live to be old, what about now?
So stop bein controlled, we black zombies

{Chorus: (sung)}
Walkin talkin dead, though we think we're livin (black zombies)
We just copy-cat, followin the system (black zombies)
Walkin talkin dead, though we think we're livin (black zombies)
We just copy-cat, followin the system (black zombies)

{Nas}
Aiyyo we trapped in our own brain, **** behind bars
We've already gone insane
They've already gave up, cut our own heads offs
Stab our own backs and dream too much
without fulfillin reality; too greedy and
can't have one or two chains, we need three of dem
Can't have one or two guns without squeezin 'em
on our own people and, **** black leaders
cause whites ain't got none leadin them, the rhythm is cosmic
Nas is divinity, the deity's prophetless
All get down and get up
Victims walkin 'round with Down's Syndrome, all stuck
Faintin, shoutin, catchin Holy Ghost in church
Scared to do it for ourselves 'less we see somebody doin it first
We begged, we prayed, petitioned and demostrated
Just to make another generation - black zombies

::Chorus::

{Nas}
You scared to be yourself, cause you in a trance
Feel free, hear the music and dance
If you cared what they think, why wear what they wear, just for you
Dumb niggaz with long beards like they Arabs or Jews
or from Israel, (?)bish'meal Allah, el-rachman, el-Rahim (?)
Islam's a beautiful thing
And Christian and Rastafari, helps us to bring
peace against the darkness, which is unGodly
So what's the black man's true religion, who should we follow?
Use your own intuition, you are tommorrow
{roaring} .. that's the sound of the beast
I'm a Columbia record slave, so get paid
Control your own destiny, you are a genius
Don't let it happen to you like it did to me, I was a black zombie

::Chorus::

{Nas}
Wake up! Black zombies in a spell for more than fo'-hundred years
Ghetto niggaz won't have it no mo', can I get a witness?
Why listen to somebody else tell you how to do it
when you can do it yourself; it's all in you, do it, do it
Do it niggaz...

[Koffy Brown]

I think some of the major points have been missed here. Black people and their social ills are being exploited. The positives about Blacks are being degraded, black women are being dishonored, human life has no meaning anymore. People are scared. There is nothing entertaining about this shit anymore. These things are being communicated through catchy beats and ebonic filled rhymes. This reality is being glorified. White women aren't being degraded, white men aren't dying out here in the streets, white life isn't looked upon as easily disposable. This isn't the reality of these executives of these big record companies, they have no worries. This shit that we are experiencing now, with 50 cent, ja rule, the cash money pimps, jay z, puff diddy and all the rest of them is disgusting. They begin to believe the shit they rap and try to live out the lifestyles they rap about, so how in the hell can you tell a young 13 year old not to believe it.

[ May 02, 2003, 09:32 AM: Message edited by: Ashaki ]

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
I think some of the major points have been missed here. Black people and their social ills are being exploited. The positives about Blacks are being degraded, black women are being dihonored, human life has no meaning anymore. People are scared. There is nothing entertaining about this shit anymore. These things are being communicated through catchy beats and ebonic filled rhymes. This reality is being glorified. White women aren't being degraded, white men aren't dying out here in the streets, white life isn't looked upon as easily disposable. This isn't the reality of these executives of these big record companies, they have no worries. This shit that we are experiencing now, with 50 cent, ja rule, the cash money pimps, jay z, puff diddy and all the rest of them is disgusting. They begin to believe the shit they rap and try to live out the lifestyles they rap about, so how in the hell can you tell a young 13 year old not to believe it. Once again thank you for bringing back the point of this topic graemlins/clap.gif Rom brought up how most of the human population is evil and we look down in disgust to make our evils less evil. This topic isn't about how bad the world is, it's about being steered away from the focus of what we are living on the earth for. Yes, survival is one of them but, it's how you do it.

Yes, people are being killed everyday over alot things, money, power, prestige etc. But I have yet seen a flashy video by an artist showing the fantastic world of being a corporate big wig killing, or worsening society or stepping on the little people to get there. That is a reality for several thousand other young people (their parents participate in this everyday. The whole point in bringing up "Pimping Black Death" is how there is a multi-billion dollar market exploiting hip hop as a whole. The "Real" Artist can barely rap about what they love because of the flashy nonsense of the ever so popular ghetto utterance of these "overnight success" rappers.

Yes, there is evil everywhere and there are people that will kill to big on a higher level than they are - Most world leaders have done so. That isn't the issue. Bringing children into a society of quick and selfish fulfillment is the issue.

As I stated before it is our responsibility as adults, leaders, parents, aunts, uncles, cousins whatever to teach our children reality from fantasy. Whether it is black, white, hispanic etc. We have to teach the children how to know themselves, how to have self-esteem and not fear the ills than can destroy them.

Fear and faith are connectors to your destiny.

[martino]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
They begin to believe the shit they rap and try to live out the lifestyles they rap aboutI think thats the major point Chuck D was addressing. You have Jimmy Iodine and his partner making 400 million dollars off interscope (3-4 years ago), while Suge Kight and some of deathrows staff end up in jail, tupac's dead, biggie's dead there's countless other victims of violence due to hiphop imagery and bullets still fly to this day. And Iodine is laughing all the way to the bank. Chuck D wasn't blaming whites for violence in hiphop, he was saying that there are execs (who are white) making a "killing" of these talented people who are wasting their talent away by buying into this violent shit that ends up costing real lives. i dont see the controversy in his essay, it seems pretty straight forward and true to me, even though he strays at the end. Seriously though, look at Tupac (who's mother was a strong, intelligent and politically active woman) talking pure ignorance in the last 2 years of his life, when you know he's smarter and more talented than that, but he bought into that thug crap costing his life, and making interscope a mint.

[mhd]

Originally posted by martino:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
They begin to believe the shit they rap and try to live out the lifestyles they rap aboutI think thats the major point Chuck D was addressing. You have Jimmy Iodine and his partner making 400 million dollars off interscope (3-4 years ago), while Suge Kight and some of deathrows staff end up in jail, tupac's dead, biggie's dead there's countless other victims of violence due to hiphop imagery and bullets still fly to this day. And Iodine is laughing all the way to the bank. Chuck D wasn't blaming whites for violence in hiphop, he was saying that there are execs (who are white) making a "killing" of these talented people who are wasting their talent away by buying into this violent shit that ends up costing real lives. i dont see the controversy in his essay, it seems pretty straight forward and true to me, even though he strays at the end. Seriously though, look at Tupac (who's mother was a strong, intelligent and politically active woman) talking pure ignorance in the last 2 years of his life, when you know he's smarter and more talented than that, but he bought into that thug crap costing his life, and making interscope a mint. </font>[/QUOTE]thanks martino, fact is, execs make choices, like when alicia keys and ashanti get rammed down
our throats. i would love to see that kind of marketing behind talib kweli or heaven forbid kenny bobien

[LEONARD REMIX RROY]

We as parents (Especially Men) need to point out the pitfalts of that lifestyle and give our children what can't be learned in school - self worth.

Rappers did not start the Chicago gangs of the 60's that still exist today. Some families have generations of gang ties. Some children are so exposed to gang life from birth that they grow to believe that is how life really is.

Until our people realize what is not needed to be a success (Bling Bling etc), alot of us will remain lost.

Me example...I really like using that $1700 Rane mixer combo but...if I am not giging for the big bucks, what is the point in owning a show piece mixer like that when a Numark will serve just as well?

Our children are being cheated by their parents and giving the wrong picture of success.

When the cheating ends, a future begins.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
We as parents (Especially Men) need to point out the pitfalts of that lifestyle and give our children what can't be learned in school - self worth.

Rappers did not start the Chicago gangs of the 60's that still exist today. Some families have generations of gang ties. Some children are so exposed to gang life from birth that they grow to believe that is how life really is.

Until our people realize what is not needed to be a success (Bling Bling etc), alot of us will remain lost.

Me example...I really like using that $1700 Rane mixer combo but...if I am not giging for the big bucks, what is the point in owning a show piece mixer like that when a Numark will serve just as well?

Our children are being cheated by their parents and giving the wrong picture of success.

When the cheating ends, a future begins. But rich white men weren't getting richer from the social ills of gang life back then...nobody is excusing parents at all....at all....at all...parents are responsible, but in today's society where the media is a controlling institution we cannot continue to go on without making them responsible for some their share in these problems as well...

[Bold Soul]

Tell me when, if ever in music history, we have experienced LITERAL LANGUAGE related to crime and violence IN MAINSTREAM ENTERTAINMENT. Certainly, there have been underground strokes - or a few mainstream attempts if you were willing to play a record backwards - but name another period where "SHOOTIN' NIGGAS" was TOP 40?

I'll say it again so that you all can gloss over it one more time -

These phrases, these MEMETIC PHRASES, are spoken in the LITERAL LANGUAGE being used in the streets of the USA every day. The meaning of this language is lost on those who don't use it until they hang out with their Black or Latino friends.


Those of us who understand this language - who have to speak it to navigate through our lives - understand that it goes beyond implication. Put those phrases to catchy sample loops, and it becomes PROPAGANDA - and the HOOKS keep it rolling in your head over...and over...and over...

[ May 02, 2003, 01:41 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[LEONARD REMIX RROY]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
But rich white men weren't getting richer from the social ills of gang life back then...nobody is excusing parents at all....at all....at all...parents are responsible, but in today's society where the media is a controlling institution we cannot continue to go on without making them responsible for some their share in these problems as well...Bill Cosby said "It don't matter how disrespectfull of degrading a role is to Black people, the is always a Black person in Hollywood that is willing to do it"

I look at it this way, if my son is a **** up it's my fault too. If I show bad example he is only following his idol. Fathers play a big role in a child life, especially daughters. I know that and see it in my children.

I call bullshit on the I had no dad excuse because I never had a Father to advise me but I turned out ok and I am product from one of the worst Chicago Ghettos, Englewood.

Sure the media should be held responsible in a way but...what a child bring to kindergarden is only what they recieved from home in the first place.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
what a child bring to kindergarden is only what they recieved from home in the first place. For some kids, it's a long, unsupervised walk to school, Rroy.

[martino]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by martino:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
They begin to believe the shit they rap and try to live out the lifestyles they rap aboutI think thats the major point Chuck D was addressing. You have Jimmy Iodine and his partner making 400 million dollars off interscope (3-4 years ago), while Suge Kight and some of deathrows staff end up in jail, tupac's dead, biggie's dead there's countless other victims of violence due to hiphop imagery and bullets still fly to this day. And Iodine is laughing all the way to the bank. Chuck D wasn't blaming whites for violence in hiphop, he was saying that there are execs (who are white) making a "killing" of these talented people who are wasting their talent away by buying into this violent shit that ends up costing real lives. i dont see the controversy in his essay, it seems pretty straight forward and true to me, even though he strays at the end. Seriously though, look at Tupac (who's mother was a strong, intelligent and politically active woman) talking pure ignorance in the last 2 years of his life, when you know he's smarter and more talented than that, but he bought into that thug crap costing his life, and making interscope a mint. </font>[/QUOTE]thanks martino, fact is, execs make choices, like when alicia keys and ashanti get rammed down
our throats. i would love to see that kind of marketing behind talib kweli or heaven forbid kenny bobien </font>[/QUOTE]i totally agree

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by Rom:

Get rich or die trying...is this not the rule that most poor people understand anyway? In the streets...this is real life. So rappers are talking about it in public forum now. They've taken the 'evil' out of the closet and put it on TV for all to see. Whats the difference between the 'thug' movement and the house movement? They were thugs before the 'music' just as gay people were before house.

And why is this music so popular? Because the 'consumers' of this music...IDENTIFY with it? The rappers didnt create this culture...this culture ALREADY existed! I suppose homosexual artists like Boy George created the gay culture...wake up people. When you are poor from the ghetto do you dream of being 'scarface' or the employee of the month at burger king?

The same culture that breeds 50 cents...breeds George Bushes...they're just gansters of a different 'class'. The corporation you work for right now, thats just a different kind of ganster or pimp...and they pimping you! This is the best post I've read on this thread thus far. The pimping of black death and subservience has always been a crucial part of American entertainment. "Bamboozled" touches on this better than any other film I've seen. Melvin van Peebles "Rated X" touches on it too and was the basis for a lot of concepts in "Bamboozled". It's funny how no one's pointed out that the majority of hip-hop's record sales aren't from the ghettos of the U.S., but the suburbs. Hip-hop has a 65-75% white buying audience. 50 Cent didn't go quadruple-platinum because the "hood" bought the cd's. The "hood" doesn't buy cd's from Sam Goody, Best Buy, Coconut's. We buy from the streets if we buy the music at all. I'm trying not to generalize, but that's how a lot of us are in the "hood". Yes, it takes the parents to raise their child. Yes, violence existed way before rap. Yes, the pimp and gansta image have plagued the black community for decades. But I wonder who acknowledged the fact that when 50 Cent was on the grind in New York, so many people in the hood were hating on him. It took a white boy (Eminem) to present 50 to the most dominant producer in rap history (Dr. Dre). Now people are still hating on him because of his success? I wish the best to 50 and say f#ck you to whoever dislikes him. I'm sorry to be so forthright, but I work in the same industry 50 is in and I've seen firsthand how everybody plays you to the left when you're struggling to get on (I'm going through this right now), especially your own so-called black brothas and sistas. It wasn't until a white engineer in Hollywood heard my beats that the ball was starting to roll, while my "homies" in the game are so busy twiddling their thumbs and can't return phone calls. You never know what these artists go through just to make it

[LEONARD REMIX RROY]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
what a child bring to kindergarden is only what they recieved from home in the first place. For some kids, it's a long, unsupervised walk to school, Rroy. </font>[/QUOTE]That is true but, if you kids fear you more than the idiots in the streets and they know you will protect them, you really don't have to worry about somebody filling their head with non-sense that they will follow.

[Koffy Brown]

It's not just your child that's affected, it's not just my child that's affected...we are all affected, white america is affected, the ghettos are affected...because once these thugs begin to believe what these songs are saying...their bullets have no eyes and their souls no conscious....we all could very easily become one of their victims or a family member...our kids could become victims while at school or walking to the store, or sitting on the stoop, or playing in the yard...it's just not as simple as being a good parent...you as a good parent should be fearful for your child right now, atleast I know I am...these thugs that sing about ****ing every woman they meet, they don't want to marry them just sex them, they don't want love just sex, well AIDS don't care how old you are, you can teach your child all you want, but when that jones come down it come strong, and he could come into contact with an infected person...it's just not an individual problem...we can seperate reality from entertainment but our youth is being bombarded with so much shit, it's hard for them...it was never like this for us...

[konbit]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Tell me when, if ever in music history, we have experienced LITERAL LANGUAGE related to crime and violence IN MAINSTREAM ENTERTAINMENT. Certainly, there have been underground strokes - or a few mainstream attempts if you were willing to play a record backwards - but name another period where "SHOOTIN' NIGGAS" was TOP 40?

I'll say it again so that you all can gloss over it one more time -

These phrases, these MEMETIC PHRASES, are spoken in the LITERAL LANGUAGE being used in the streets of the USA every day. The meaning of this language is lost on those who don't use it until they hang out with their Black or Latino friends.


Those of us who understand this language - who have to speak it to navigate through our lives - understand that it goes beyond implication. Put those phrases to catchy sample loops, and it becomes PROPAGANDA - and the HOOKS keep it rolling in your head over...and over...and over... Though outside the music biz, Hollywood has been doing this since its inception. Since the original Scarface (1932, right?), gangster movies have been criticized for making criminal lifestyles glamorous. I doubt that they cause any crime, even though film probably works as a stronger medium for propoganda (arguably).

While rap might be encouraging lifestyles that are pretty bad...I think that it is more important to criticize and solve the conditions that make people suceptible to those images: crime, poverty, education, familial structures, community, etc.

And, I think that it is important to remember that the stories and images these MCs are telling are reflections of society. Life might mimic art...but the art always mimics life first. Artists (and i use the term lightly here) can only write about what they know.... If the adverse conditions that turned out these rappers were repaired, I think the music would reflect it.

Nonetheless...most of this commercial hip-hop IS really awful. graemlins/puke.gif

[mhd]

Originally posted by konbit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Tell me when, if ever in music history, we have experienced LITERAL LANGUAGE related to crime and violence IN MAINSTREAM ENTERTAINMENT. Certainly, there have been underground strokes - or a few mainstream attempts if you were willing to play a record backwards - but name another period where "SHOOTIN' NIGGAS" was TOP 40?

I'll say it again so that you all can gloss over it one more time -

These phrases, these MEMETIC PHRASES, are spoken in the LITERAL LANGUAGE being used in the streets of the USA every day. The meaning of this language is lost on those who don't use it until they hang out with their Black or Latino friends.


Those of us who understand this language - who have to speak it to navigate through our lives - understand that it goes beyond implication. Put those phrases to catchy sample loops, and it becomes PROPAGANDA - and the HOOKS keep it rolling in your head over...and over...and over... Though outside the music biz, Hollywood has been doing this since its inception. Since the original Scarface (1932, right?), gangster movies have been criticized for making criminal lifestyles glamorous. I doubt that they cause any crime, even though film probably works as a stronger medium for propoganda (arguably).

While rap might be encouraging lifestyles that are pretty bad...I think that it is more important to criticize and solve the conditions that make people suceptible to those images: crime, poverty, education, familial structures, community, etc.

And, I think that it is important to remember that the stories and images these MCs are telling are reflections of society. Life might mimic art...but the art always mimics life first. Artists (and i use the term lightly here) can only write about what they know.... If the adverse conditions that turned out these rappers were repaired, I think the music would reflect it.

Nonetheless...most of this commercial hip-hop IS really awful. graemlins/puke.gif </font>[/QUOTE]then why is advertising a billion dollar industry?

[mhd]

Originally posted by djmarbll:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Rom:

Get rich or die trying...is this not the rule that most poor people understand anyway? In the streets...this is real life. So rappers are talking about it in public forum now. They've taken the 'evil' out of the closet and put it on TV for all to see. Whats the difference between the 'thug' movement and the house movement? They were thugs before the 'music' just as gay people were before house.

And why is this music so popular? Because the 'consumers' of this music...IDENTIFY with it? The rappers didnt create this culture...this culture ALREADY existed! I suppose homosexual artists like Boy George created the gay culture...wake up people. When you are poor from the ghetto do you dream of being 'scarface' or the employee of the month at burger king?

The same culture that breeds 50 cents...breeds George Bushes...they're just gansters of a different 'class'. The corporation you work for right now, thats just a different kind of ganster or pimp...and they pimping you! This is the best post I've read on this thread thus far. The pimping of black death and subservience has always been a crucial part of American entertainment. "Bamboozled" touches on this better than any other film I've seen. Melvin van Peebles "Rated X" touches on it too and was the basis for a lot of concepts in "Bamboozled". It's funny how no one's pointed out that the majority of hip-hop's record sales aren't from the ghettos of the U.S., but the suburbs. Hip-hop has a 65-75% white buying audience. 50 Cent didn't go quadruple-platinum because the "hood" bought the cd's. The "hood" doesn't buy cd's from Sam Goody, Best Buy, Coconut's. We buy from the streets if we buy the music at all. I'm trying not to generalize, but that's how a lot of us are in the "hood". Yes, it takes the parents to raise their child. Yes, violence existed way before rap. Yes, the pimp and gansta image have plagued the black community for decades. But I wonder who acknowledged the fact that when 50 Cent was on the grind in New York, so many people in the hood were hating on him. It took a white boy (Eminem) to present 50 to the most dominant producer in rap history (Dr. Dre). Now people are still hating on him because of his success? I wish the best to 50 and say f#ck you to whoever dislikes him. I'm sorry to be so forthright, but I work in the same industry 50 is in and I've seen firsthand how everybody plays you to the left when you're struggling to get on (I'm going through this right now), especially your own so-called black brothas and sistas. It wasn't until a white engineer in Hollywood heard my beats that the ball was starting to roll, while my "homies" in the game are so busy twiddling their thumbs and can't return phone calls. You never know what these artists go through just to make it </font>[/QUOTE]scarface or burger-king? c'mon man, there are a helluva lot more dreams than that in the ghetto

[LEONARD REMIX RROY]

People always bring up the "50 cent was shot 9 times"

That wouldn't be the case had I popped his ass. One shot one kill is my background, Combat Engineers are something-else.

Hell, who did the beltway snipper shoot twice? How many one shot kills did he get?

The right man with the right weapon only need one try, be it a knife, small arms or rifle.

[konbit]

mhd...I think the difference between an ad selling you a product and an artist expressing what he's seen, what he believes, etc. should be evident. I don't understand what you're asking.

Does the media have power over people? Yes. But the nature of that power is dependent upon conditions that the audience lives under. Especially when it is audience members that are the voice of the medium...and are voicing those conditions.

[konbit]

Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
People always bring up the "50 cent was shot 9 times"

That wouldn't be the case had I popped his ass. One shot one kill is my background, Combat Engineers are something-else.

Hell, who did the beltway snipper shoot twice? How many one shot kills did he get?

The right man with the right weapon only need one try, be it a knife, small arms or rifle. graemlins/rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif

[mhd]

Originally posted by konbit:
mhd...I think the difference between an ad selling you a product and an artist expressing what he's seen, what he believes, etc. should be evident. I don't understand what you're asking.

Does the media have power over people? Yes. But the nature of that power is dependent upon conditions that the audience lives under. Especially when it is audience members that are the voice of the medium...and are voicing those conditions. images influence people

[D J 1 3 8]

This is an interesting ongoing discussion.

The question remains: what to do?

Yes, white-owned corporations are profiting from the death and violence that their black artists champion. Do we censor the artists? Do we protest in front of the record labels? Do we boycott the record labels? religious leaders in NY and around the country have been trying to do just that, to little or no effect.

I am thoroughly oppposed to censorship in any form. And to live in a capitalist society is to accept the fact that everybody strives for maxiumum profit, from Jimmy Iovine to the bodega owner on my block.

I think the only real power that we have, as consumers, is to simply not support rapppers who's lyrics we object to.

And to be quite honest, personally, I would find it hard to do this. Though I have a lot of love for people like Common and The Roots and many of the more socially conscious rappers (and I buy and play just about every thing they put out), I'm still a Jay-Z fan (well, some of his shit) and a Dr. Dre fan, and many others. I suppose this makes me part of the problem...

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
This is an interesting ongoing discussion.

The question remains: what to do?

Yes, white-owned corporations are profiting from the death and violence that their black artists champion. Do we censor the artists? Do we protest in front of the record labels? Do we boycott the record labels? religious leaders in NY and around the country have been trying to do just that, to little or no effect.

I am thoroughly oppposed to censorship in any form. And to live in a capitalist society is to accept the fact that everybody strives for maxiumum profit, from Jimmy Iovine to the bodega owner on my block.

I think the only real power that we have, as consumers, is to simply not support rapppers who's lyrics we object to.

And to be quite honest, personally, I would find it hard to do this. Though I have a lot of love for people like Common and The Roots and many of the more socially conscious rappers (and I buy and play just about every thing they put out), I'm still a Jay-Z fan (well, some of his shit) and a Dr. Dre fan, and many others. I suppose this makes me part of the problem... Well me personally I cannot and do not support that kind of music...What I am suggesting is that we don't support it...that we make these artists understand their influential power....we're not saying they should wear halo's and angel wings, well atleast I'm not, but have an understanding as to what you are putting out here to the public and if you continue to promote, the degradation of Black women, and the social ills of our community WE WILL NOT SUPPORT YOU...simple as that...they need to be responsible for their actions...they need to come together and create record labels that believe in serious talent, not based solely on thug characters and the poor deplicting of black people..if you want to buy jay-z then buy it...but what would you suggest as a solution...

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
[QUOTE]...but what would you suggest as a solution... I suppose I am admitting to having very little in the way of solutions. In fact, I am acknowledging the fact that, by being a consumer of these types of rappers, I am indeed part of the problem.

I guess my instincts tell me that this, like every other trend in hip hop lyrics (the good and the bad), this too shall pass. Jay-Z and thug lyrics have dominated since around the mid-90s. Before that we had afro-centric lyrics of PE and such, 5% lyrics of PRT and Brand Nubian and what-not, abstract ltrics of Tribe and fam, and going back to the roots, where it was all just about "I'm the best at rapping".

All trends come to an end, and I assume this one will too. This particular trend may seem to have had a disproportionately heavy price, but I really think that the majority of violence in our neighborhoods is the result of the social conditions, not the music.

BTW, Ashaki, I grew up in Cincinnati ;) I went to North Avondale elementary. I used to rollerskate at the old Cincinnati Gardens in Bond Hill. Where you from?

[ May 02, 2003, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: DJ 138 ]

[The Donger]

I made diarreah at The Rapture show last night.

[ May 02, 2003, 04:15 PM: Message edited by: Ghost Of Donger ]

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I made diarreah at The Rapture show last night. ???

[Bold Soul]

...

[ May 02, 2003, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[TAD]

Bold Soul you've made things so blatantly clear with all your posts. i hope people stop to reflect on your messages. maybe if they read them 1000 times those that simply don't get it finally will. my hats off to you sir.

[The Donger]

Originally posted by Gman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I made diarreah at The Rapture show last night. ??? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know what happened, maybe it was the greasy chicken I ate, or the chocolate milk I washed it down with. Whatever the case, I started feeling pain in my stomach while experiencing "cold sweats". The opening band sucked, and I started feeling dizzy. I knew the dizzines wasn't because of the band, and there was no way I could hold this shit, so I figured best to do it before The Rapture starts.

I go to the men's room, and before you know it I was just like the guy in Dumb & Dumber. Then while this event is taking place, some kids in the next stall attract security's attention because they were smoking some skunk. It was pretty scary when the security staff started banging on all the stalls yelling about "who's smoking weed?", I said if they want, they can come in my stall and find out by smelling wether or not I was smoking weed, or shitting really badly. They left me alone.

Soon I was clean (I checked for toilet paper: Mark Be, thanks for the warning), and I was outside rehydrating myself at the water fountain. The Raprture were great, De La Soul was good, but they haven't really changed thier show format in the last 10 years or so. Still a great show though.

Thanks G!

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
edited - because no one's listening. That's wack. People are listening. I'm just also trying to do some work...

To reply to your dissapearing post, I've had all of those things happen to me (except the property values , cuz I don't own shit) and I still don't blame the music. The lyrics are but a symptom of the greater disease: poverty.

[TAD]

Bold Soul what happened to your last post? it was brilliant. there are people listening. i am one of them if that counts for anything. your voice needs to be heard.

[TAD]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I don't know what happened.......Soon I was cleannice cut n paste job zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
this was so unnecessary

[ May 02, 2003, 04:37 PM: Message edited by: Cosmic_Twin ]

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I made diarreah at The Rapture show last night. ??? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know what happened, maybe it was the greasy chicken I ate, or the chocolate milk I washed it down with. Whatever the case, I started feeling pain in my stomach while experiencing "cold sweats". The opening band sucked, and I started feeling dizzy. I knew the dizzines wasn't because of the band, and there was no way I could hold this shit, so I figured best to do it before The Rapture starts.

I go to the men's room, and before you know it I was just like the guy in Dumb & Dumber. Then while this event is taking place, some kids in the next stall attract security's attention because they were smoking some skunk. It was pretty scary when the security staff started banging on all the stalls yelling about "who's smoking weed?", I said if they want, they can come in my stall and find out by smelling wether or not I was smoking weed, or shitting really badly. They left me alone.

Soon I was clean (I checked for toilet paper: Mark Be, thanks for the warning), and I was outside rehydrating myself at the water fountain. The Raprture were great, De La Soul was good, but they haven't really changed thier show format in the last 10 years or so. Still a great show though.

Thanks G! </font>[/QUOTE]The ??? was meant to ask what does this have to do with the discussion at hand ?

[konbit]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by konbit:
mhd...I think the difference between an ad selling you a product and an artist expressing what he's seen, what he believes, etc. should be evident. I don't understand what you're asking.

Does the media have power over people? Yes. But the nature of that power is dependent upon conditions that the audience lives under. Especially when it is audience members that are the voice of the medium...and are voicing those conditions. images influence people </font>[/QUOTE]Okay...but the images that are created are mearly a reflection of the lives of those who create them.

And, the ways in which they influence are dictated by the conditions of the audience.

Hence, the hip-hop in question is a RESULT of existing conditions (not the cause of them). And, the influence that it does have is based upon the socio-ecomomic problems faced by certain sectors of the audience.

Seems to me like this rap is just a symptom of much more important issues.

[Rom]

Werd Bold, that was good post man, put it back up bro. You definately have a good point there.

[Bold Soul]

My first suggestion is to RECOGNIZE THE CONDITION. Stop claiming that the psychological and sociological effects of pop-culture on the human brain don't exist.

For years, we've been listening to rhymes and catchy musical hooks in commercials, and none of you have stopped "Be(ing) all you can be, in the Army", "Hav(ing) a Coke and a Smile", knowing that "It's a Good Time, for the Great Taste of McDonalds". Your kinds sing along to the "Pow-pow-Powerwheels, Pow-pow-Powerwheels makes it go" and demand that shit for Christmas.

But catchy rhymes and phrases about "See a Nigga, Kill a Nigga" aren't influencing anyone to do anything? Don't blame the music?

Cause and effect - plain and simp. Take a kid with three Big Macs in his stomach, a quart of Coca-Cola and massive levels of carcinogens and THC from herb running through his bloodstream throughout his development and his brain doesn't function at normal levels. His capacity for reason and free association in his thought process is impaired. (Half of you are violent prior to your morning coffee).

Now you add MEMETICS driven by REPETITIVE BEATS and RHYMING CADENCE and you have the conditions for PROGRAMMING. BET serves it up through the bootleg cable box. The CD player that is shared by the whole block and the sound system in the car that you spend 8 hours a day in the back seat of because you have no where else to go keeps it consistent.

Ever seen kids on the train - no headphones - no music coming from anywhere - and they're reciting popular rap lyrics? That's regurgitation of programming - read ORWELL and/or HUXLEY.

Any psychologist will tell you - premeditation is only 90% of the act of violence. That last bit of psychological motivation comes from the MOMENT just prior - psyching ones self up to do the deed.

Soldiers sing cadence and anthems on the way to defeat the enemy - athletes chant and play blaring music in locker rooms on the way to defeat the enemy...

...shorties smoke woo in the backseat while listening to violent hip-hop on the way to defeat the enemy.

[fred da warrior]

graemlins/respekt.gif , Bold.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
edited - because no one's listening. That's wack. People are listening. I'm just also trying to do some work...

To reply to your dissapearing post, I've had all of those things happen to me (except the property values , cuz I don't own shit) and I still don't blame the music. The lyrics are but a symptom of the greater disease: poverty. </font>[/QUOTE]What is wack, 138, is that no one is affording this topic the respect it deserves. That, and as typical to the DHP audience, everyone uses the last post as a soapbox. We await our turn to make noise instead of building on ideas.

As I wrote before - certain subjects require a broader point of view.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
edited - because no one's listening. That's wack. People are listening. I'm just also trying to do some work...

To reply to your dissapearing post, I've had all of those things happen to me (except the property values , cuz I don't own shit) and I still don't blame the music. The lyrics are but a symptom of the greater disease: poverty. </font>[/QUOTE]What is wack, 138, is that no one is affording this topic the respect it deserves. That, and as typical to the DHP audience, everyone uses the last post as a soapbox. We await our turn to make noise instead of building on ideas.

As I wrote before - certain subjects require a broader point of view. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree. Such discussions as these are the result of all of us building on ideas. Hopefully we will all continue to agree, disagree, and most importantly, learn from one and other. Thanks for your thoughts. Peace.

[mhd]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
I made diarreah at The Rapture show last night. ??? </font>[/QUOTE]I don't know what happened, maybe it was the greasy chicken I ate, or the chocolate milk I washed it down with. Whatever the case, I started feeling pain in my stomach while experiencing "cold sweats". The opening band sucked, and I started feeling dizzy. I knew the dizzines wasn't because of the band, and there was no way I could hold this shit, so I figured best to do it before The Rapture starts.

I go to the men's room, and before you know it I was just like the guy in Dumb & Dumber. Then while this event is taking place, some kids in the next stall attract security's attention because they were smoking some skunk. It was pretty scary when the security staff started banging on all the stalls yelling about "who's smoking weed?", I said if they want, they can come in my stall and find out by smelling wether or not I was smoking weed, or shitting really badly. They left me alone.

Soon I was clean (I checked for toilet paper: Mark Be, thanks for the warning), and I was outside rehydrating myself at the water fountain. The Raprture were great, De La Soul was good, but they haven't really changed thier show format in the last 10 years or so. Still a great show though.

Thanks G! </font>[/QUOTE]talking shit...again

[mhd]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
This is an interesting ongoing discussion.

The question remains: what to do?

Yes, white-owned corporations are profiting from the death and violence that their black artists champion. Do we censor the artists? Do we protest in front of the record labels? Do we boycott the record labels? religious leaders in NY and around the country have been trying to do just that, to little or no effect.

I am thoroughly oppposed to censorship in any form. And to live in a capitalist society is to accept the fact that everybody strives for maxiumum profit, from Jimmy Iovine to the bodega owner on my block.

I think the only real power that we have, as consumers, is to simply not support rapppers who's lyrics we object to.

And to be quite honest, personally, I would find it hard to do this. Though I have a lot of love for people like Common and The Roots and many of the more socially conscious rappers (and I buy and play just about every thing they put out), I'm still a Jay-Z fan (well, some of his shit) and a Dr. Dre fan, and many others. I suppose this makes me part of the problem... i appreciate your honesty and introspection

[YUJI-SAN]

Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
Wow, I just read it.

Chuck D is a mess. HAhahhahahahahahaaAA ^1000^%*&^%97

[imported_Gman]

I think what we need is a moderator (note not administrator) . Heads responsible for keeping the flow of ideas going in important threads and to make sure the thread stays on course.

-G

[YUJI-SAN]

Originally posted by Gman:
I think what we need is a moderator (note not administrator) . Heads responsible for keeping the flow of ideas going in important threads and to make sure the thread stays on course.

-G I'm the guy for that mission since I'm on here 24/7 :D

[Bold Soul]

The level of class and temperance displayed in threads such as these reveals a comprehension and maturity issue - not a moderation issue.

The crowd is the crowd.

[YUJI-SAN]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
The level of class and temperance displayed in threads such as these reveals a comprehension and maturity issue - not a moderation issue.

The crowd is the crowd. So you considered what Donger said was mature?

[mhd]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
Bold Soul you've made things so blatantly clear with all your posts. i hope people stop to reflect on your messages. maybe if they read them 1000 times those that simply don't get it finally will. my hats off to you sir. i echo these sentiments and recommend them to yuji, et al.

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
The level of class and temperance displayed in threads such as these reveals a comprehension and maturity issue - not a moderation issue.

The crowd is the crowd. Bold, I think you are generalizing the few over all the excellent posts in this thread.

-G

[Shalewa]

Bold Soul,

Be encouraged, many folks are reading and considering and carrying on the discussion with themselves. The folks who are making fun and light really don't get it. I don't mean don't agree with it folks (sincere dissent may not win you any friends but it won't cause folks to shut down discussion), I mean don't appreciate or comprehend or respect that their reduction of a serious discussion to potty joke fodder is neither cute, nor endearing and as much as they wish to believe otherwise we do not love it. That the issues and the passion with which Chick D articulated them resonate with many. Do not allow the hubris of a few effectively shut you down. You are on fire and are bringing stinging Truth to the fore and I for one appreciate your perspective. We all get tired sometimes, I know this well, but please let stand your words even if you must sit the next few rounds out.

[ May 02, 2003, 06:11 PM: Message edited by: Shalewa ]

[Bold Soul]

I am experiencing no ill will, animosity or frustration. I simply reserve the right to hold my words until a more appropriate time and place presents itself.

G - I am not inferring that the entire body of membership lacks a certain maturity and temperance. I am, however, inferring that there are elements in the crowd that delight in killing valuable discussion with careless distractions. It is continual and consistent.

[ May 02, 2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[YUJI-SAN]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
Bold Soul you've made things so blatantly clear with all your posts. i hope people stop to reflect on your messages. maybe if they read them 1000 times those that simply don't get it finally will. my hats off to you sir. i echo these sentiments and recommend them to yuji, et al. </font>[/QUOTE]so redundant.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by YUJI BR0WN:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
Bold Soul you've made things so blatantly clear with all your posts. i hope people stop to reflect on your messages. maybe if they read them 1000 times those that simply don't get it finally will. my hats off to you sir. i echo these sentiments and recommend them to yuji, et al. </font>[/QUOTE]so redundant. </font>[/QUOTE]Yuji - I'm curious. What is the value of this type of response in a discussion intended by the originator to be serious and sophisticated?

[JoeB]

do black execs get looked upon the same as white ones or is it o.k. for them to sign and basically do what the white ones are doing since they are black?

[martino]

Originally posted by JoeB:
do black execs get looked upon the same as white ones or is it o.k. for them to sign and basically do what the white ones are doing since they are black? i'm pretty sure that (based on this whole thread) no one here is blaming whites entirely for whats going on...so i think its safe to say that no, its not ok for blacks to do it. (but show me a black exec that is as big as an iodine or a turner). We're talking about an inbalance which is the same thing as an injustice. Jimmy iodine made huge money off suge knights label and all the criminal activity that went on and was glorified by that labels music. Suge knight ended up in jail. his flag ship artist tupac ended up dead. they release tupacs record after his death and the cheques roll in like never before. Thats pimpin death plain and simple.
Iodine and co. are investing in this violence, suge knight, tupac and shit loads of kids are buying into it and the currency is their life.
The more people who can relate to that music, the more records they sell. i dont buy that shit, cause i dont fantasize about guns and being a thug. You need the fantasy in entertainment, but shit, i think at some point you need some responsiblity as an artist and actually say something as well.

[ May 02, 2003, 08:52 PM: Message edited by: martino ]

[JoeB]

thanks for your reply. i was just wondering.

[Shalewa]

Originally posted by JoeB:
do black execs get looked upon the same as white ones or is it o.k. for them to sign and basically do what the white ones are doing since they are black? They generally get worse or at least more personalized criticism. There is no real expectation that White execs will be looking out for the common interests of Black people, but Black execs are always subject to some sort of expectation that they should be looking out for and advancing common interests. Blacks in positions of power and influence with any public profile who don't seem to be "giving back" can expect to be labelled as sell-outs, have their personal relationships examined and possibly challenged and have their very "Blackness" questioned.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Okay, has anyone noticed that there is a social, spiritual, economic and survival war going on? I am not just labeling it as a "Black" problem. There is an attack on the meek, lacking, low-grade, low self esteem folk out here. While folk are getting rich off of what sells now, there are many that are and will fall by the wayside.

I hate making redundant statements but we must look at ourselves for real and make a stand for what we believe in and fight for it. What is the sense of living if we aren't doing something that will help or impact a life or many lives. I am sorry but I am not here to just get by, live a normal life, retire and sit back waiting to die. When I leave this earth I will leave here with an impact on many lives. I am not saying this is wrong but to me it is a waste. I saw my Grandmother and many in my family do it because of fear of stepping out against the norm.

It will take more than just speech, arguments, several posts and impressive essays to make things happen. Think about it if each one of us that has posted take a stand against the ills of whatever, just imagine the impact we would have. Hell we make an impact just by being members of this board around the world. I am not saying become radicals but share wisdom, time, educate and lead others into a positive vibe. Let's stop going back and forward with who wants to be right and get our point across.

I too love controversy and arguments but I become bored very easily after the same thing is repeated over and over again.

[DJ Rated M]

WORD!!!

preach Chuck, preach!!!

[Mike Johnson]

Another senseless killing, of a 17 year old young man, plagued my city yesterday afternoon just a couple of blocks from, and not too long after kids were being let out from a middle school.

Juxtapose this to the fact that 50 Cent and all his glorious wonder performed at the Hartford Civic Center last night, and while performing, had the sounds of a gun being cocked, repeatedly, as a back drop to his performance, while stripping is shirt to reveal and perform in his bullet-proof vest.

Were the two related? Not directly. Can one draw a correlation of the two acts that happened just hours apart? Almost surely. Violence is abound in urban areas nationwide. Today's young generation hasn't quite gotten it that violence is not the only means problem resolution. 50, being a part of that generation, is no different. Giving him, and others like him, a stage to project that attitude merely reinforces it through idolotry and hero worship - they big him up because "them" (i.e., corporations) have flossed him up. He and others like him have "made it", but the question that folks take a blind eye to is "at what expense?" I don't believe that you can argue that the music is totally reflective of societial behavior, and that it does not influence societal behavior. We create art out of our experiences, and we are influenced by the art we create. As to the bling-n-thug art game, its influence is aided by such factors as teenage rebellion, cultural poverty, economic poverty, the notion of "keeping it real" as some sort of badge of honor (e.g., guys who brag about having survived incarceration), being involved in gang activity, etc.

The fact that "them" choose to market the bling-n-thug game, or violence as entertainment, however, is very troubling. Again, at what expense. Them that sit in high chairs in glass towers don't live within "the streets". They drive home to suburban digs and communities totally devoid of anything that is representative of the products they market and sell under the guise of free speech. It has been said that while no man shall be deprived of his right to free speech, that there are, however, limits imposed so as not to cause danger; the fact that one can be punished for yelling "fire" in a crowded theater and creating panic that leads to injury or the loss of life. In communities that are like mine, lyrics spewed from the mouths of 50 and others like him, that have no real purpose other than to incite, are tantamount to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater. It reinforces the notion that it's perfectly fine, in some cases expected, that the way to deal with beef is to extinguish the foe, either through verbal and emotional denigration or through physical assault, and sometimes death.

But then again, it's all in the name of entertainment, because "them" believe it's what people (we, in the urban communities) want. So long as it doesn't directly affect them, and their children are allowed to only voyeuristically experience the morass and not actually live it, the music will continue under the guise of free speech because nobody's yelling "fire" in their theaters. However, that doesn't excuse us (blacks and latinos who are affected daily by the violence) from speaking up and saying enough is enough. I know I'm tired of gunfire in my city, tired of rappers glorifying it and gettin' paid, tired of folks gettin' paid for spewing negativity, tired of folks gettin' paid at the expense of moral decay, lost lives, etc.

[Shannon]

AMEN!! biggrinangel.gif

[flypitcher]

make mike johnson a moderator.

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JoeB:
do black execs get looked upon the same as white ones or is it o.k. for them to sign and basically do what the white ones are doing since they are black? They generally get worse or at least more personalized criticism. There is no real expectation that White execs will be looking out for the common interests of Black people, but Black execs are always subject to some sort of expectation that they should be looking out for and advancing common interests. Blacks in positions of power and influence with any public profile who don't seem to be "giving back" can expect to be labelled as sell-outs, have their personal relationships examined and possibly challenged and have their very "Blackness" questioned. </font>[/QUOTE]Very good point. This reminds me of a statement Steve Cokely used when he was working with Harold Washington. When you're Jewish, be Jewish, when you're Irish, be Irish, when you're Polish, be Polish, but when you're black, be nuetral. Black execs in the music business make good decisions just often as white ones, but the black execs mistakes are often more amplified. When Andre Harrell took over Motown and flopped, he was considered a laughing stock. However, no one blames Madonna for Me'shell Ndegeocello's "soft" record sales. Most people didn't even know Madonna ran the label Ndegeocello was on (Maverick). There is definitely a different standard set for black execs and white ones. Just ask Jermaine Dupri or Sean "P. Diddy, Puff Daddy, P. Diddy Pop" Combs, Tommy Mottola, or Clive "I made Alicia Keys a star because I was f*cking her mother" Davis. graemlins/cool_shades.gif

[Bold Soul]

There is a popular radio station in LA that is offering 50 Cent tickets.

After they game away the first batch, they started the campaign again. The tagline of the giveaway...

"RELOADING" the tickets.

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
There is a popular radio station in LA that is offering 50 Cent tickets.

After they game away the first batch, they started the campaign again. The tagline of the giveaway...

"RELOADING" the tickets. Proof that subliminal messaging is still in use, even though it was deemed illegal after Coca-Cola tried it in movie theaters in the 50's.