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Shannon
03-06-2003, 02:02 PM
While we fight against having a war against Iraq (and the next), we must not forget the battle for human and civil rights here. Our children can not and should not face the future alone. We need to help guide them to the BEST choices for a better future for us all.

misogyny in music
=====================

http://www.tolerance.org/news/article_hate.jsp?id=720

Hip Hop's Bad Rap?

Editor's Note: This is the first of several installments in a yearlong Tolerance.org project addressing misogyny in music. Watch for future stories exploring the issue beyond rap and hip hop.
By Dana Williams | Staff Writer, Tolerance.org
Feb. 28, 2003 -- If the voice were in your home or on a street corner, it might terrify you.

Now I don't wanna hit no women when this chick's got it coming
Someone better get this bitch before she gets kicked in the stomach
And she's pregnant, but she's egging me on, begging me to throw her
Off the steps on this porch, my only weapon is force

But on the radio or from a CD, you're invited to sing along.

They are lyrics from "The Eminem Show", for which Eminem received the best rap album award at Sunday's Grammys.

And if industry nods of approval like the Grammys are any indication, lyrics promoting hatred, objectification and exploitation of women are increasingly accepted as authentic forms of artistic _expression particularly in some rap and hip hop music.

Though Eminem has received a great deal of flak for his woman-hating lyrics, he is merely one of many artists cashing in on misogyny. But at what cost to society?

A very high one, according to Dr. Gwendolyn Pough, assistant professor of women's studies at the University of Minnesota.

"It definitely has an impact on young women especially young black women", said Pough, who teaches a course called "Women, Rap and Hip Hop Feminism" and currently is writing a book about black women in hip hop culture.

There are messages in the music that tell us what we should to do be desired and in some cases, respected. I do believe there is some connection to those messages and how some young women view themselves or behave.

Consider the lyrics of "Down Ass Bitch", by popular rap artist Ja Rule.

If you'd lie for me, like you lovin me
Baby say yeah
If you'd die for me, like you cry for me,
Baby say yeah
If you'd kill for me, like you comfort me,
Baby say yeah,
Girl I'm convinced, you're my down ass bitch

There's a trend now in rap to talk about the "ride or die chick,'” a girl who will do anything for her man, said Pough. That music can create a mindset for some people. And right now, there is a growing prison population of women in jail for their relationships, in jail for selling drugs and committing crimes for their boyfriends.

The connection to misogynistic music and behavior may be evident in other areas of young people's lives, too, says Dr. Michael Rich, a pediatrician at Children's Hospital Boston and spokesperson for the American Academy of Pediatrics' Media Matters campaign.

The music portrays this kind of dating violence and coercion around sexual activity as normal relationships,said Rich.

I see an acceptance among teenagers both girls and boys, of the kind of sexual objectification celebrated in this kind of music. There is this notion that it's okay to be used for sex and that there is not any emotional commitment necessary.

That sense of acceptance is one of the reasons the AAP started its Media Matters campaign in 1998. In addition to lobbying for stronger music-industry standards, the program explores the impact of media messages on children's health and behavior and advises pediatricians and parents about addressing the problem.

Media are a source of information and a source where young people learn about relationships, Rich said. Although no one can claim a 100% causality for behavior, there is certainly a strong association.

Beyond the beat
Jenga Mwendo, 24-year old artistic director of Red Clay's Catcalls, an acclaimed multimedia exhibit designed to simulate women's experiences with street harassment, says music has always been influential because it is so easy to digest.

Young people have always listened to whatever is popular and anything that comes with a harmony or a nice beat is easier for people to accept, said Mwendo. But that's the problem “ people may say, ˜I'm not listening to the lyrics, I just like the beat,' when really those messages are sinking in whether it's consciously or subconsciously."

And the problem is compounded by radio, she says.

"Adults have a right to buy this music and listen to it. But children are exposed to it just by turning on the radio because so much of what's played on the radio is explicit and misogynistic.

Many times, even clean song versions contain explicit messages.

Mwendo cites West coast rapper Nate Dogg's newest track, "I Need Me a Bitch." Changed to "I Need Me a Chick" for radio, the core of the song remains unchanged:

I need me a chick, who ain't scared to flirt
I need me a chick in the middle of the grocery store she'll lift up her skirt
I need me a chick, like I need my crew
I need me a chick to pass on to my boys soon as I get through

"You can bleep out the dirty words, but the message is still there,said Mwendo. It's shocking. It's a message that says women are objects, that it's okay to use women and just pass them along to your boys."

Those messages play out on streets and sidewalks everyday, which is one of the reasons Mwendo says her organization was moved to create "Catcalls.€

On any given day, she says, young girls and women walking down streets everywhere are subject to whistles, heckles and vulgar comments €“ usually from groups of young boys and men.

€œThere's always a lot of talk about the role of girls' self-esteem and self respect,€ said Mwendo. €œBut we also need to see that young boys hear these lyrics repeated over and over and they might believe this is how they are supposed to treat women.€

Chris Rolle, program director for Art Start's Hip Hop Project in New York, agrees.

"You can only speak what is your reality,€ said Rolle, describing the thought process of some of the young people he works with.

"If I'm a player or my father was a player €” if I think girls like it when I yell €˜Yo shorty!' because that's what I see in the video or hear in the music, then that's what I'm gonna do."

Deconstructing the messages
One of the goals of Rolle's Hip Hop Project, which immerses 14 to 19-year-olds in various phases of the music industry, is getting students to study and discuss the effects misogynistic messages in music lyrics and videos.
But Rolle admits the youth involved in his program are lucky. Not all youth have the opportunity to engage in music-focused media literacy and critical thinking exercises.

"For most kids, the avenue is not there," said Rolle.

It's what he calls the "chess, not checkers" phenomenon.

"Most kids only get to see the back-and-forth between men and women in songs and videos. They don't see all the moves and marketing strategies that go into creating the product."

According to AAP's Rich, it's the job of parents and educators to create a framework for young people to understand what they're exposed to through music and other media.

"Without the framework to understand what they're hearing, some kids may see it as a truth," said Rich. "We have to be open to listen to what they're listening to, and we have to ask them to explain to us what it is that they're hearing in order to open up a dialogue about it."

Mwendo says the music industry needs to accept more responsibility for what it's putting out, too.

"We know that the record industry puts this music out there because it sells. And those who sing it make more money," said Mwendo. "But we have to have a balance, and I think the music industry needs to be responsible and promote positive artists with positive messages too."

Still, Mwendo and Pough both say society can't fail to look at itself.

"Misogynistic rap wasn't created in a vacuum," said Pough. "We also have to look at how this music reflects society."

For many, Pough says, hip hop culture continues to represent the whipping boy.

"It's the place where they can say, €˜Look at all the negativity and misogyny in hip hop culture,' and still ignore the same things that go on in other parts of society."

For Mwendo, it's simply two sides of the same coin.

"Artists write and sing these misogynistic lyrics, but people keep buying it and the radio keeps playing it," said Mwendo.

"We live in a society that accepts misogyny. If they considered it too gruesome or extreme, it wouldn't sell. At some point, we have to look at what that says about the world we live in."

the crackhouse
03-06-2003, 02:49 PM
VEry good point shannon !
Even if I like the beats of snoop doggy dog, I'll never buy any of his so-called works.
I don't understand this kind of hiphop.

Women are life, do these rappers think the same of the woman who gives them life ?
purely hypocrit and music without any reflexion.
Let's just cut their dicks off. Oh. it's illegal ?..

Boycott is the only thing we can do here.

formerly known as kenspank
03-06-2003, 02:55 PM
for some reason, articles and panel discussions on misogyny in music seem to draw more attention to that kind of music. it seems to give it a kind of free publicity. the more people exposed to the music, the more people affected by the music.

its like how we raise children. when they do something bad, they get way more attention from us than when they do something good. they learn that in order to hook people's attention they need to do something bad, something controversial, something outrageous...

however, if we were to call attention to the lyrics in order to really analyze how these fictional characters feel and how various segments of society might identify with those violent, negative, or misogynistic feelings, that might be helpful. basically, if we were willing to really listen to how these lyricists are feeling, then maybe something useful could result from these discussion.

half the time though, i feel like people are just pointing the finger.

MsAlayneous
03-06-2003, 04:10 PM
[ March 31, 2003, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: deepred ]

lola desire
03-06-2003, 04:23 PM
word

i'm glad this issue is being addressed. i hope we can talk about this openly instead of the usual: it's not a big deal; or yeah,... the lyrics are fu**ed up but the the track is fresh.

great post, Shannon

Pete Nice
03-06-2003, 05:01 PM
what a great post. it's sad to say that our society doesn't even allow for parents to be there for their children. a lot of this i think is the result of material gain winning out over everything. our lives are based on what we own. what we can show and boast about. we spend so much time chasing trivial things. a strong family does not come from money, it comes from unity and that unity is lacking. it's a scary thought that children's heroes are now people like ja rule and m&m. it's just not the children, take a look at the adults of this country. there is something lacking, like a lot of people have started to sell-out anything positive for the pursuit of status. we as a society don't deal in terms of what's positive... to even be positive is thought of as weakness. more and more i feel we gain through negative means. put others down so you can step on them on your way up. do everything for you, not for the benfit of the whole. top to bottom we are failing as a civilized society.... my main point was supposed to be that we treat everything as possesions now. it's becoming about what you can get from somebody as far material gain, instead developing a relationship that may hold more value than just economics. and the front of this are men turning women into objects... hope this is making sense. just my thoughts.....

Bold Soul
03-06-2003, 05:08 PM
Shannon - I honestly believe that this post is the most significant post to hit the board in a long time.

But it only has seven or so replies at this point. Shameful. People want peace overseas but not in the streets.

Fcuking hypocrites. graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

Bold Soul
03-06-2003, 05:32 PM
^badump^

C hristian
03-06-2003, 05:36 PM
2 wars going on indeed. Iraq, and civil rights

simon b
03-06-2003, 05:39 PM
I don't care for it. As a DJ I won't play anything I can't stand behind, musically OR lyricaly.

mdpm99
03-06-2003, 05:43 PM
Thank you for your thread!

smile.gif

d

ps How do we catch up on the phone? Noonish - Fri. OK??

smile.gif

Shalewa
03-06-2003, 05:54 PM
Thanks for posting this article Shannon. I am honored to say that I was a tiny contributor to the Catcalls exhibition which Red Clay hopes to tour. Over the past year it has had three showings here in NYC, the last being a week of performances specifically for school audiences. I'll be sure to post information on any future presentations.

Shannon
03-07-2003, 07:57 AM
Thankyou for responding to the post... I was moved by the article and have already felt this way for quite some time about the negative images and messages behind massively produced/pushed music/media within the last 10 years...

What really was discouraging to me was that the other day I was in a record store where I saw a mother buying her little girl who had to be about 5 years old this garbage. And to top it off the mother was asking where the Art Kelly new CD at... graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

Brut by Faberge
03-07-2003, 09:35 AM
Shannon: much appreciation for your post. another thing to consider is that so many of these rapper dudes have kids of their own, and daughters at that...maybe one day they will understand the repercussions of the hateful sub-culture they're promoting when baby-girl comes home in tears, with a black eye, or worse. know that i wouldn't wish that on anybody in a million years. but we do reap what we sow don't we? terrifying indeed.

RickB
03-07-2003, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by kenspank:
for some reason, articles and panel discussions on misogyny in music seem to draw more attention to that kind of music. it seems to give it a kind of free publicity. the more people exposed to the music, the more people affected by the music.

its like how we raise children. when they do something bad, they get way more attention from us than when they do something good. they learn that in order to hook people's attention they need to do something bad, something controversial, something outrageous...

however, if we were to call attention to the lyrics in order to really analyze how these fictional characters feel and how various segments of society might identify with those violent, negative, or misogynistic feelings, that might be helpful. basically, if we were willing to really listen to how these lyricists are feeling, then maybe something useful could result from these discussion.

half the time though, i feel like people are just pointing the finger.Yours is the only post here that I wholeheartedly agree with. It IS mostly just finger pointing. For all the talk about violence against women, I never hear any of these detractors talk about the effects that violence in hip hop rap has on the YOUNG MEN. I'm pretty sure that there are alot more young black and latino males going to jail, killing and dying because of the "influence" of hip hop than there are women. So until that issue is addressed in a balanced manner cries of misogyny in hip hop and rap will fall mostly upon deaf ears.

I've always said (for the most part) that people generally dont really give a shit about an issue unless it effects them or someone who looks like them. This is really just another example of that.

all I'm waiting for now is anti-hip hop people to come out the woodwork to say how that music should be banned and that it sucks. It's really no different than going to school with a bunch of metalheads who called rap "jungle music" or "monkey music". Or other people who call House "faggit marching tunes" or "fag music" Ignorant ****ers, the whole lot of them and you, if you think like that.

(For those of you that are a little more fair minded this doesnt apply to y'all at all.)

Cordell
03-07-2003, 11:51 AM
My question is: Don't we owe it to ourselves to say enough is enough?? This style of Rap music is really a "Dark" side to how some men think... And this type of message shouldn't be made available for the general public... Some of these female rappers need to get checked too! The messages in some their songs only promote what a man can do for her, he gotta be this- he gotta be that.
I've notice that type of behavior/image is not just here in America but in Europe too, and probably in the far east. I might be trippin', but people need to take more responsibility and not give in to negative behavior/messages. Sometimes freedom of speech is an abused privilage(sp).

Shannon
03-07-2003, 12:18 PM
This is not a anti-hip hop post. Nor a finger pointing post at that.. It's a post that sparks the realities and effects on the topic of some but not all emcee's lyrics. It was written in the direction of men emcee's in the industry because WE do dominate the industry.

Second, we already know about the violence that exist in the industry upon men and there high jail rates. Who haven't heard about Big-E, Jam Master J or Tupac? Who dont have boy's or family members who are minority men who are doing time?

Can you give the readers a percentage on the black women who are victims of violence due to hip hop or any music in particular?

This problem isn't a one gender issue. It's deeper than that...

Brut by Faberge
03-07-2003, 12:22 PM
"Yours is the only post here that I wholeheartedly agree with. It IS mostly just finger pointing. For all the talk about violence against women, I never hear any of these detractors talk about the effects that violence in hip hop rap has on the YOUNG MEN. I'm pretty sure that there are alot more young black and latino males going to jail, killing and dying because of the "influence" of hip hop than there are women. So until that issue is addressed in a balanced manner cries of misogyny in hip hop and rap will fall mostly upon deaf ears."

i'm not sure what type of dialogues you are exposing yourself to or engaging in, but i have taken part in discussions on the negative influences of some (not all) hip-hop and rock lyrics on young men plenty of times...many of them IN CONJUNCTION WITH discussion on how said lyrics affect women.

we are replying to an article posted, which made some signifacant points. what's wrong with sticking with the topic? i don't think anyone here (your detractors) is implicitly throwing young black and latino men to the dogs, but rather addressing one aspect of a larger issue. if you want to start a thread about the effects on young men specifically, you really ought to do so. i'm sure many would love to participate.

[ March 07, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: jj ]

Shannon
03-07-2003, 12:27 PM
Couldn't have said it better JJ

esquire
03-07-2003, 12:54 PM
Certainly I encourage dialog on these issues. However, my take on it is that people should view Eminem as well as some of the other artists mentioned as "entertainers." The songs they write and perform are for entertainment purposes only. If Ja Rule or Eminem were living in line with everything they say in their songs, they'd be in jail. I think adults and children simply must take responsibilty for their own actions and not merely blame them on some song. I think most people who've actually heard music from some of these so called "controversial" artists view it as entertainment and they aren't trying to emulate what they hear or see in the songs and videos. Especially given how many records just two of the these artists sold in 2002.
Further, I think too many people take what I call a paternalistic view towards women. Always wanting to save women from something. I think women are strong enough to stand on their own two feet, and they've done several things throughout history to prove my point.
Again, I encourage dialog on issues like this but I believe there really isn't a concrete solution to them other than patronize businesses that support your individual beliefs.

LEONARD REMIX RROY
03-07-2003, 01:54 PM
I don't play Ghetto garbage.

Koffy Brown
03-07-2003, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Cordell:
My question is: Don't we owe it to ourselves to say enough is enough?? This style of Rap music is really a "Dark" side to how some men think... And this type of message shouldn't be made available for the general public... Some of these female rappers need to get checked too! The messages in some their songs only promote what a man can do for her, he gotta be this- he gotta be that.
I've notice that type of behavior/image is not just here in America but in Europe too, and probably in the far east. I might be trippin', but people need to take more responsibility and not give in to negative behavior/messages. Sometimes freedom of speech is an abused privilage(sp).I totally agree...but first we have to recognize it as an issue. That's why I'm not digging this big deal about the Hip hop conference that was scheduled to take place in atlanta next month, and now it may not...but i'm like why should we support this...what in the hell possible can you talk about at a hip hop conference or seminar right now...it it's not about resposibility then it's null...but we don't see it... BLINDERS ... and for "us" it's easier to say it's just entertainment because for some reason we are so afraid of the truth...

Balactus
03-07-2003, 02:05 PM
what about when women mc's use the word bitch and ho i.e. missy elliot's chorus to the Jay-Z song "is that your bitch" have the words bitch and ho been completely neutered in our popular vocabulary or do they still carry the weight of insult? i don't know the answer as i hear young women using these same words over and over again. i don't like them the same way i don't like the use of the N word but people are still saying it.

w

'Magic' Juan
03-07-2003, 02:09 PM
I am sad to say that as long as people are buying this stuff, record companies will continue to pump it out to the public. Many of my associates seem surprised when they find out I do not have the latest Ja Rule or Nelly Cd in my collection. Why should I? Just because it is the current anthem in the streets does not make it a 'must buy' item for me. Most people seem not to choose to discover good music. Instead, they just take what is fed to them by the radio and digest it wholeheartedly. I think the proper term for it is 'sheeple.'

I hope the time comes again when rap/hip-hop is music with a message. Until then, I am passing up on this genre and will keep the radio dial on off.

magic_juan

LEONARD REMIX RROY
03-07-2003, 02:11 PM
What you all have not pointed out is.....mainstream America is buying that crap in great numbers.

Koffy Brown
03-07-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
What you all have not pointed out is.....mainstream America is buying that crap in great numbers.also what needs to be said is...the #1 consumers of this type of music is white youth...but we are the ones suffering the after affects of really trying to live that type of life...for them it's entertainment for us it's blurred reality..

Balactus
03-07-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
What you all have not pointed out is.....mainstream America is buying that crap in great numbers.also what needs to be said is...the #1 consumers of this type of music is white youth...but we are the ones suffering the after affects of really trying to live that type of life...for them it's entertainment for us it's blurred reality..</font>[/QUOTE]true

LEONARD REMIX RROY
03-07-2003, 02:58 PM
We are suffering due to others who have given their children no parenting at all! It is entertainment to mainstream America but, it is endorced by people in the hood that have nothing better to do with their time that think up bull to get into.

When I see screwed up kids - a screwed up parent is the cause now days. I was born, raised, and still live in the hood and I am not jacked up. For that reason alone I say it's all about choice.

Pete Nice
03-07-2003, 03:24 PM
not to get too off topic, but here is a sad reality of our times. sometime i believe last year a chuck d video was banned from mtv because of lyrics making reference to the mumia case, but yet they still play the "thong song" and others like it. that is a sad statement to say the least. so it's all about clockin' the ho's and doe. i have since stopped watching mtv and related channels. so if you want money just demean women in your video's and lyrics. it's all gravy.....

[ March 07, 2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: square root ]

LEONARD REMIX RROY
03-07-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by square root:
not to get too off topic, but here is a sad reality of our times. sometime i believe last year a chuck d video was banned from mtv because of lyrics making reference to the mumia case, but yet they still play the "thong song" and others like it. that is a sad statement to say the least. so it's all about clockin' the ho's and doe. i have since stopped watching mtv and related channels. so if you want money just demean women in your video's and lyrics. it's all gravy.....Click
Black History Month: The Last Poets
(Cable\DSL)- play video download
at the bottom of the plugger, it's well worth watching if you have not seen it yet and go hand & hand with your post.

Pete Nice
03-07-2003, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by square root:
not to get too off topic, but here is a sad reality of our times. sometime i believe last year a chuck d video was banned from mtv because of lyrics making reference to the mumia case, but yet they still play the "thong song" and others like it. that is a sad statement to say the least. so it's all about clockin' the ho's and doe. i have since stopped watching mtv and related channels. so if you want money just demean women in your video's and lyrics. it's all gravy.....Click
Black History Month: The Last Poets
(Cable\DSL)- play video download
at the bottom of the plugger, it's well worth watching if you have not seen it yet and go hand & hand with your post.</font>[/QUOTE]thanks....
this wouldn't work on anything but cable/dsl would it? i'm at work and can't play it right now.....

[ March 07, 2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: square root ]

SMOOTH87
03-07-2003, 05:21 PM
Thanks for bring up this topic Shannon. I also have felt like this for a long time. Most adults can handel the music but it's the kids who hear this who try to imatate these rappers and singers. Even for adults this is simply yeilding negative energy. To me it seems like the owners of the radio sations push this music to control certain elements of black and minority culture...

f0reverneverm0re
03-07-2003, 10:36 PM
Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
What you all have not pointed out is.....mainstream America is buying that crap in great numbers.also what needs to be said is...the #1 consumers of this type of music is white youth...but we are the ones suffering the after affects of really trying to live that type of life...for them it's entertainment for us it's blurred reality..</font>[/QUOTE]i've noticed that certain people get off on seeing others suffer.

even if Chuck D did have something "positive" (MTV: appropriate, not trying t0 rouse the rabble) to say it wouldn't be shown on MTV: MTV doesn't 'like' niggers, why should they want to see niggers heal themselves?! no, the only good nigger is a nigger singing and shaking that ass, degrading themselves for fame and money. (spot on about the "trying to live that life" thing).

nobody had anything to say about the Black awareness, black medallion culture stuff in the earlier part of hip-hop, but then, certain niggers starting ridiculing certain Blacks for expressing in music and print the fact that Blacks didn't have to be the hardhearted beasts that others wanted us to be. women became big time whores, crackheads weren't fallen angels, they were just dirt...

mainstream america seems to want niggers to lose their souls. the buy out, the sell out. certain people will stroke a nigger's ego just because they something in them *knows* that niggers suffer because of fatheaded niggers and the more fatheaded niggers you can make, the more nigger suffering that can be generated.

i don't suffer because i stand up in such a way; i don't let--well, "white folk" coddle me like the baby they think most niggers are, and which a lot of niggers appear to be given the way they act (sometimes i act like a baby). blah

again, i feel it's important for anyone around to see the truly and positively reflecting person, no matter what 'color' these icons are. i've known a few sincere, professional and 'successful' Black people who can and have served as examples of people that reflect a positive reality. some people that come to mind--Harry Evans, child advocate from the East Coast; Virginia Stewart, Howard U; Robert Beauford, social worker, Baltimore; Robert Pincham, lawyer, Chicago.

sorry for the rant

so maybe one solution is to have a Million Male March so the fellas can see that this is in fact an issue. men from the Pacific Islander community on the west coast have had domestic violence vigils. maybe it's time for little vigils and marches in cities--time for more sincere grassroots outreach efforts.

[ March 07, 2003, 10:41 PM: Message edited by: f0reverneverm0re ]

the crackhouse
03-08-2003, 08:01 AM
In the same subject : I never understood how it was possible for booty house to have a public and an economic weight in the music industry !
Dj funk ?!!!!
Are some ladies agreeing dancing to that in a club ?

Shannon
03-08-2003, 01:38 PM
Idance, yes! Booty music in Chicago is very much heard and danced to in Chicago.. And yes certain females like it... It's more popular on the college/highschool crowd and/or lounges....

[ March 08, 2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: Shannon ]