WHAT DO MEXICANS HAVE BELOW THEIR CARPETS [Archive]

Discogoddess

06-09-2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by martin s:
Please school me if I'm missing the point, but I don't see what the problem is. I'm native English speaker, but I also speak Spanish - I thought this was quite a funny play on words and really quite harmless. To me, the joke is questionable humor at best...some members of the group featured in the joke might think it's a riot, but others could easily be offended. And, because it was posted in an electronic forum, where one can't hear or see the poster's expressions, body language, etc., or know his intentions, I think it's in poor taste.

06-09-2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
this is the same guy who posted the rape joke AR15firing.gif and it's from the same dude who posted a rape joke. ignorant buffoon.

martin

06-09-2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
To me, the joke is questionable humor at best...Why?

I think it's in poor taste. How?

I ain't trying to be difficult - I think I might just be missing the point.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 08:53 AM

Speaking of poor taste...

http://www5.footballfanatics.com/images/products/skasammyblackt.jpg

"Yoos got some 'splaining to do?" - from the Sun Times, no less? graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

MYOR

06-09-2003, 08:53 AM

Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Discogoddess:
To me, the joke is questionable humor at best...Why?

I think it's in poor taste. How?

I ain't trying to be difficult - I think I might just be missing the point. [/QUOTE]Me too please explain... graemlins/conf44.gif

imported_Gman

06-09-2003, 08:58 AM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
this is the same guy who posted the rape joke AR15firing.gif and it's from the same dude who posted a rape joke. ignorant buffoon. [/QUOTE]JL, you get a warning for name calling.

-G

Tony Cano

06-09-2003, 09:00 AM

Originally posted by CRAIG HUGHES:
Underlay underlay

cRaiG... :rolleyes:

Discogoddess

06-09-2003, 09:26 AM

Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Discogoddess:
To me, the joke is questionable humor at best...Why?

I think it's in poor taste. How?

I ain't trying to be difficult - I think I might just be missing the point. [/QUOTE]Me too please explain... graemlins/conf44.gif [/QUOTE]I don't know how else to explain to you, other than what I posted the first time, but here goes. Without getting into the history of stereotypes in the western world (for quick reference, though, think Speedy Gonzalez or that damn Taco Bell dog), I'll just say that on an internet forum, without the benefit of knowing the poster, and seeing his expressions, etc., I think it's borderline. Also, for me, having grown up in a western Michigan town in which Mexicans where subjected to all manner of "jokes" like this (and many that were much, much more offensive), I cringe when I see stuff like this. Why single out Mexicans for the joke....why not Spanairds, the originators of the language?

If you want to joke like this to your friends or people who "get" your humor, fine. Again on an internet forum, I think it's in poor taste.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Discogoddess:
To me, the joke is questionable humor at best...Why?

I think it's in poor taste. How?

I ain't trying to be difficult - I think I might just be missing the point. [/QUOTE]Me too please explain... graemlins/conf44.gif [/QUOTE]I don't know how else to explain to you, other than what I posted the first time, but here goes. Without getting into the history of stereotypes in the western world (for quick reference, though, think Speedy Gonzalez or that damn Taco Bell dog), I'll just say that on an internet forum, without the benefit of knowing the poster, and seeing his expressions, etc., I think it's borderline. Also, for me, having grown up in a western Michigan town in which Mexicans where subjected to all manner of "jokes" like this (and many that were much, much more offensive), I cringe when I see stuff like this. Why single out Mexicans for the joke....why not Spanairds, the originators of the language?

If you want to joke like this to your friends or people who "get" your humor, fine. Again on an internet forum, I think it's in poor taste. [/QUOTE]Thank you. And I believe that closes the thread.

martin

06-09-2003, 09:40 AM

Thanks Discogoddess - I know Speedy Gonzalez, but not the Taco Bell dog. I can see the point your making a little more now.

Drrtynewyork

06-09-2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:

Originally posted by martin s:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Discogoddess:
[qb] To me, the joke is questionable humor at best...Why?

I think it's in poor taste. How?

why not Spanairds, the originators of the language?

cause Spaniards speak perfect Castellano spanish

martin

06-09-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by DOUG GOMEZ:
Spaniards speak perfect Castellano spanish In Madrid they do, but it is a country full of dialects and regional variations like most - I would tend to refer to las gentes espanolas instead of la gente espanola . After being at the point where I could talk about anything in spanish I moved to Sevilla and hardly understood a thing for nearly 2 months. My ear fell into place so to speak and I picked up an Andaluz accent. smile.gif

JMJ

06-09-2003, 10:10 AM

Completely unfunny.....JMJ :(

MYOR

06-09-2003, 10:30 AM

Still think its just a silly harmless joke... but to each their own...

We have to respect how other people feel..

graemlins/bighug.gif

DJ76

06-09-2003, 11:07 AM

I love ethnic jokes, they are the funniest. But like Discogoddess was saying, that's the type of humour you use with friends cause they know you and won't be offended. When I saw your post this morning, I thought "uh oh". I come back and there's a dozen of posts chastizing you. Ethnic jokes can be VERY sensitive.

And

06-09-2003, 12:27 PM

I don't get the issue with underlay. Is underlay a play on words for andale (sp) hurry/quickly (?) in Spanish? If so what is the offense? Because he specifically mentioned Mexicans?

DJ CHRIS PURTELL

06-09-2003, 12:28 PM

are you doing this for attention ??? I thought you would have figured it out with the Rape joke...whats next downsyndrome jokes GET A CLUE graemlins/nono.gif

Moksha

06-09-2003, 12:46 PM

I don't think this really qualifies as an "ethnic joke." It doesn't really insult Mexicans...and is just a bad pun. (Though not as bad as the classic Pink Panther "dead ant, dead ant" joke). Regardless of the politicized history of Speedy Gonzales...he is a widely known cartoon figure, and his battle cry is a part of pop culture.

However, since this board can be VERY sensitive to this sort of stuff...he should've probably thought twice about it.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 12:47 PM

Originally posted by 6 23:
I don't get the issue with underlay. Is underlay a play on words for andale (sp) hurry/quickly (?) in Spanish? If so what is the offense? Because he specifically mentioned Mexicans? BINGO!

D J 1 3 8

06-09-2003, 12:59 PM

Upon further review, i think i've changed my mind about this stupid joke. Konbit's "dead ant" reference makes sense.

Though I am not fond of defending racist jokes, I really think in this case, when you break it down, this joke doesn't qualify as such.

It is indeed a play on words and a reference to a cartoon that all Americans grew up with.

Speedy Gonzalez has been pulled from circulation for being offensive, so I can understand how this joke may rekindle bad memories of stupid those racial stereotypes.

Yet, I'm guessing that the majority of people objecting to this joke are assuming it is mocking the Spanish language or Mexicans specifically. Making a referance to a word in another language is not neccesarily mockery. And I think he used the word Mexicans as a specific referance to Speedy Gonzalez, a Mexican cartoon character known for his rallying cry "adale andale" (sp?).

I don't think this joke is funny, mind you. Far from it, but Racist? Only if you're specifically objecting to Speedy Gonzalez.

06-09-2003, 01:07 PM

Would you consider the cartoon Speedy Gonzales as harboring racist sentiments? Perhaps that's why it was pulled from the air? Therefore, any "contributions" it made to the vernacular could also be said to be racist? There's tons of sayings and quips in pop culture that are incredibly racist, your argument that they may be a part of said mass culture doesn't excuse or prevent their harm.

D J 1 3 8

06-09-2003, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by JL:
Would you consider the cartoon Speedy Gonzales as harboring racist sentiments? Perhaps that's why it was pulled from the air? Therefore, any "contributions" it made to the vernacular could also be said to be racist? There's tons of sayings and quips in pop culture that are incredibly racist, your argument that they may be a part of said mass culture doesn't excuse or prevent their harm. Correct. I am saying that Speedy Gonzalez (SG) was indeed pulled from the air for being racist, and rightly so. However, I am guessing that many people's immediate negative reaction to this joke may not have been connected to SG, but rather to mis-reading the joke itself.

yes, it references SG, and in that way, you could call it a racist joke. But, just making a play on words with another language does not make it necessarily racist or necessarily disparaging of that language. See my point?

And

06-09-2003, 01:30 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
Would you consider the cartoon Speedy Gonzales as harboring racist sentiments? Perhaps that's why it was pulled from the air? Therefore, any "contributions" it made to the vernacular could also be said to be racist? There's tons of sayings and quips in pop culture that are incredibly racist, your argument that they may be a part of said mass culture doesn't excuse or prevent their harm. Correct. I am saying that Speedy Gonzalez (SG) was indeed pulled from the air for being racist, and rightly so. However, I am guessing that many people's immediate negative reaction to this joke may not have been connected to SG, but rather to mis-reading the joke itself.

yes, it references SG, and in that way, you could call it a racist joke. But, just making a play on words with another language does not make it necessarily racist or necessarily disparaging of that language. See my point? [/QUOTE]THANK YOU!

Moksha

06-09-2003, 01:33 PM

JL...why are you so sensitive? (Especially ironic considering your participation on the Kuo....where you participate in much more vile ethnic banter).

There is hardly one bit of pre-'60s pop culture that adheres to today's sense of political correctness, especially cartoons. Does this mean that nobody can allude to these things in jokes? Does the existence of sexual sterotypes in Warner cartoons mean we can't make jokes that reference Bugs Bunny or Yosemite Sam? I'm sure that any boopty boop Betty Boop allusions would send you screaming for justice in your best Feminist voice. How 'bout Tom & Jerry?

It would be one thing if the joke made reference to Speedy's friends being lazy ,or some of the other stereotypes included in the cartoon....but it doesn't! It's just a stupid pun that references a part of the cartoon that has NO ETHNIC CONOTATIONS.

So before the next time you defend the Kuo here with the "it's all jokes" excuse, take a moment to remember your reaction to this MUCH LESS offensive bit of humor.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
I am guessing that many people's immediate negative reaction to this joke may not have been connected to SG, but rather to mis-reading the joke itself.
I bet you're right. People saw the word "Mexican" and went into attack mode without even thinking about it.

And

06-09-2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
JL...why are you so sensitive? (Especially ironic considering your participation on the Kuo....where you participate in much more vile ethnic banter).

There is hardly one bit of pre-'60s pop culture that adheres to today's sense of political correctness, especially cartoons. Does this mean that nobody can allude to these things in jokes? Does the existence of sexual sterotypes in Warner cartoons mean we can't make jokes that reference Bugs Bunny or Yosemite Sam? I'm sure that any boopty boop Betty Boop allusions would send you screaming for justice in your best Feminist voice. How 'bout Tom & Jerry?

It would be one thing if the joke made reference to Speedy's friends being lazy ,or some of the other stereotypes included in the cartoon....but it doesn't! It's just a stupid pun that references a part of the cartoon that has NO ETHNIC CONOTATIONS.

So before the next time you defend the Kuo here with the "it's all jokes" excuse, take a moment to remember your reaction to this MUCH LESS offensive bit of humor. I hear this too.

martin

06-09-2003, 01:41 PM

This begs the question: Are there boundaries to humour? I didn't see the rape joke, and I find it difficult to imagine how someone could make a joke about rape funny, but if it is WITTY should we judge what can be material for a joke? If we do, then where do we draw the line?

MYOR

06-09-2003, 01:41 PM

D J 1 3 8

06-09-2003, 01:45 PM

Most of us have heard and/or told insensitive jokes before. Most of us are careful to be aware of those within earshot before opening our mouth. Clearly, DHP is not the place for every joke. Nevertheless, as un-funny as this joke is, I still think it was attacked for the wrong reasons.

Discogoddess

06-09-2003, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
I am guessing that many people's immediate negative reaction to this joke may not have been connected to SG, but rather to mis-reading the joke itself.
I bet you're right. People saw the word "Mexican" and went into attack mode without even thinking about it. [/QUOTE]I don't think people misread it. I think that the word "Mexican," as opposed to say, "Spanish," is the defining thing that makes this joke borderline/inappropriate. To pretend that a joke that begins with "What do Mexicans...?" isn't a potential source of offense is ridiculous. And again, THIS IS AN INTERNET FORUM, and one cannot know the poster's feelings, viewpoints, etc. Because of that, my opinion remains that posting it was in poor taste. But then again, that assumes that the poster would care whether or not he offended anyone.

06-09-2003, 01:49 PM

Orion -

While I can see why you feel the way you do about the issue, I have to disagree. There is link enough between the Spanish words "andale andale" (hurry up, faster), and saying in a joke that it's a Mexican saying rather than say, Spanish, Argentina, etc. You've even alluded to this link in your post.

As far as alluding to politically incorrect or harmful subject matter - that's fine in certain contexts. I don't know Craig Hughes, and for all I know he could be an ignorant racist who feels these kind of comments are okay. I've heard that he made rape jokes earlier, and I find that extremely insensitive. I hang with a diverse group of idiots, and we always make fun of each, as we do on kuo, but there's a difference between that and this.

As far as my own sensitivity to certain issues, well, it's 25 years of living as a minority that has made me so. As for you, why do you always feel that race isn't an issue? Why do you always feel that because you don't see any harm, there was no harm done? It's a fairly common argument/phenomenon for people in the dominant majority to downplay racism/sexism/whateverism and for people in the minority to be more accute to them. Why do you think this is so? Are all these minorities going around just imagining that they felt this pain, anger, and hurt?

[ June 09, 2003, 02:51 PM: Message edited by: JL ]

Moksha

06-09-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
I don't think people misread it. I think that the word "Mexican," as opposed to say, "Spanish," is the defining thing that makes this joke borderline/inappropriate. To pretend that a joke that begins with "What do Mexicans...?" isn't a potential source of offense is ridiculous. What are you talking about?!?!?!? Speedy was Mexican, not "Spanish." The joke doesn't make sense if you say "Spanish." This is ridiculous, for real.

darrow

06-09-2003, 01:53 PM

excuse my ignorance, but did anyone say "andale andale!" before Speedy?

And

06-09-2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by martin s:
This begs the question: Are there boundaries to humour? I didn't see the rape joke, and I find it difficult to imagine how someone could make a joke about rape funny, but if it is WITTY should we judge what can be material for a joke? If we do, then where do we draw the line? Sure there are ... personal boundaries. I did see the rape joke and you know what I wasn't offended by it. I didn't think it was a good joke, but I also didn't think the guy that posted it thought rape was cool either. I guess I find the less personal history I try to attach to everyone's words and the more I engage them to explain to me something I don't understand, the less offended I find myself getting at their comments ... sometimes heh, heh.

richierich

06-09-2003, 01:55 PM

Like I said I bet he wouldn't say that shit to a Mexican face to face "UNLESS" he already has that type of rapport with them. Peeps just will not leave this race shit alone for one minute. Well I tell you now I don't play that black joke shit so don't even think it.. have fun on your time.

[ June 09, 2003, 03:01 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

MYOR

06-09-2003, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
I am guessing that many people's immediate negative reaction to this joke may not have been connected to SG, but rather to mis-reading the joke itself.
I bet you're right. People saw the word "Mexican" and went into attack mode without even thinking about it. [/QUOTE]I don't think people misread it. I think that the word "Mexican," as opposed to say, "Spanish," is the defining thing that makes this joke borderline/inappropriate. To pretend that a joke that begins with "What do Mexicans...?" isn't a potential source of offense is ridiculous. And again, THIS IS AN INTERNET FORUM, and one cannot know the poster's feelings, viewpoints, etc. Because of that, my opinion remains that posting it was in poor taste. But then again, that assumes that the poster would care whether or not he offended anyone. [/QUOTE]Well Spanish just won't go here..... The fact is that certain sayings are referenced to certain country.. Doesn't mean your being offensive.. graemlins/conf44.gif

Austin/Dallas

06-09-2003, 01:56 PM

Dead people that make stupid AR15firing.gif AR15firing.gif AR15firing.gif jokes about them.

D J 1 3 8

06-09-2003, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
I am guessing that many people's immediate negative reaction to this joke may not have been connected to SG, but rather to mis-reading the joke itself.
I bet you're right. People saw the word "Mexican" and went into attack mode without even thinking about it. [/QUOTE]I don't think people misread it. I think that the word "Mexican," as opposed to say, "Spanish," is the defining thing that makes this joke borderline/inappropriate. To pretend that a joke that begins with "What do Mexicans...?" isn't a potential source of offense is ridiculous. [/QUOTE]Yes, starting a joke with "What do Mexcians..." most definitely has the potential for being racially insensitive. That was the first thing which came to my mind when I saw the thread. Potential? Yes. But in this particular case, I think if you read this dumb-ass joke, it's really not that racially insensitive. It's not disparaging of Mexicans in the least, it is merely a play on words, pointing out the hilarity (or not) of the similarity between the English word "underlay" and the Spanish word "andale".

darrow

06-09-2003, 01:58 PM

what if a mexican told the joke?

And

06-09-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by darrow:
excuse my ignorance, but did anyone say "andale andale!" before Speedy? Nope ...
Can you believe this. 2 pages later all of us reading all sorts of things into a one line post.

06-09-2003, 02:01 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Discogoddess:
I don't think people misread it. I think that the word "Mexican," as opposed to say, "Spanish," is the defining thing that makes this joke borderline/inappropriate. To pretend that a joke that begins with "What do Mexicans...?" isn't a potential source of offense is ridiculous. What are you talking about?!?!?!? Speedy was Mexican, not "Spanish." The joke doesn't make sense if you say "Spanish." This is ridiculous, for real. [/QUOTE]exactly my point, the statement is loaded. think critically about this, i'll help you out by pointing out the 3 main things to keep in mind here:

1. The joke specifically targets Mexicans, not Spanish, although the words the joke references are Spanish. The reasoning behind this are made clear now by the Speedy Gonzales reference and it's prevalance in the vernacular and you admitting the joke wouldn't make sense if he didn't say Mexican.

2. IF he said Mexicans were lazy or slow, it would be highly offensive.

3. Think about why Speedy Gonzales saying "andale! andale!", within the context of certain Mexican and Mexican-American stereotypes would be offensive as shit.

4. Apply all of the above to the joke in question.

06-09-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by richierich:
Like I said I bet he wouldn't say that shit to a Mexican face to face "UNLESS" he already has that type of rapport with them. Peeps just will not leave this race shit alone for one minute. Well I tell you now I don't play that black joke shit so don't even think it.. have fun on your time. word, for all of you that don't see the harm in this, go up to random mexicans, preferably a big dude, and say this joke to their face.

And

06-09-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Discogoddess:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
I am guessing that many people's immediate negative reaction to this joke may not have been connected to SG, but rather to mis-reading the joke itself.
I bet you're right. People saw the word "Mexican" and went into attack mode without even thinking about it. [/QUOTE]I don't think people misread it. I think that the word "Mexican," as opposed to say, "Spanish," is the defining thing that makes this joke borderline/inappropriate. To pretend that a joke that begins with "What do Mexicans...?" isn't a potential source of offense is ridiculous. [/QUOTE]Yes, starting a joke with "What do Mexcians..." most definitely has the potential for being racially insensitive. That was the first thing which came to my mind when I saw the thread. Potential? Yes. But in this particular case, I think if you read this dumb-ass joke, it's really not that racially insensitive. It's not disparaging of Mexicans in the least, it is merely a play on words, pointing out the hilarity (or not) of the similarity between the English word "underlay" and the Spanish word "andale". [/QUOTE]graemlins/thumbsup.gif

MYOR

06-09-2003, 02:03 PM

Question here is who is Mexican and was offended by this silly joke??

06-09-2003, 02:05 PM

so you can be a racist when you're not offending anyone? kind of like the Klan sitting around a burning cross making ch_nk and n_gger jokes right?

Moksha

06-09-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by JL:
Orion -

While I can see why you feel the way you do about the issue, I have to disagree. There is link enough between the Spanish words "andale andale" (hurry up, faster), and saying in a joke that it's a Mexican saying rather than say, Spanish, Argentina, etc. You've even alluded to this link in your post.

As far as alluding to politically incorrect or harmful subject matter - that's fine in certain contexts. I don't know Craig Hughes, and for all I know he could be an ignorant racist who feels these kind of comments are okay. I've heard that he made rape jokes earlier, and I find that extremely insensitive. I hang with a diverse group of idiots, and we always make fun of each, as we do on kuo, but there's a difference between that and this.

As far as my own sensitivity to certain issues, well, it's 25 years of living as a minority that has made me so. As for you, why do you always feel that race isn't an issue? Why do you always feel that because you don't see any harm, there was no harm done? It's a fairly common argument/phenomenon for people in the dominant majority to downplay racism/sexism/whateverism and for people in the minority to be more accute to them. Why do you think this is so? Are all these minorities going around just imagining that they felt this pain, anger, and hurt? graemlins/sleep2.gif graemlins/sleep2.gif graemlins/sleep2.gif graemlins/sleep2.gif

1. Speedy Gonzalez was not Argetinian. Have you see the cartoon?

2. I'm not defending Craig Hughs. I have no knowledge about him. I didn't see his "rape joke."

3. So, you contend that the upfront racial slur jokes on the Kuo (many of which are directed towards people that do not participate on the forum) are more appropriate than a joke that contains NO racial slurs here?

4. Do you find the word "Mexican" offensive?

5. How does the word "Mexican" when used in a joke that does nothing to insult Mexicans relate to your 25 years of minority life?

6. You are totally wrong. I think that race is often issue. And, when people get their panties all in a bunch about non-issues like this, it takes away from the REAL issues concerning race.

7. You're needed over in the "favorite cartoon" thread. It seems like a lot of cartoons that insult ethnic groups, women, etc. are being referenced. I'm too insesnsitive to go over there and prevent people from getting hurt.

So easy a protic can do it (QUAD)

06-09-2003, 02:06 PM

OK, HAS ANYONE HAD THEIR "UVULA" TODAY?!?! IT NOW COMES IN GRAPE AND CHERRY FLAVOR!!......MMMMM,DELICIOUS!!! EVERYBODY HAVE SOME!!!!!! Diet and fat free versions available soon............ graemlins/beerchug.gif

pronounced "yoo-vee-yoo-lah"

Discogoddess

06-09-2003, 02:06 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
What are you talking about?!?!?!? Speedy was Mexican, not "Spanish." The joke doesn't make sense if you say "Spanish." This is ridiculous, for real. Hold on, cowboy! The joke didn't specifically refer to Speedy Gonzalez; I introduced him into the thread as an example of cultural icons that have racially charged histories and/or have caused offense/controversy. And, if you didn't know, you can actually be Spanish (uh, like, from Spain), not just speak the language. My point in continuing to ask why the joke referred to Mexicans specifically was because there tends to be a "built-in" ASSumption in these kinds of joke that is untoward, IMHO.

martin

06-09-2003, 02:07 PM

I'm going to check out the thread about favourite classic cartoon chracters - if anyone's said Speedy Gonzalez they better watch out.
AR15firing.gif

[ June 09, 2003, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: martin s ]

darrow

06-09-2003, 02:07 PM

third ignorant question...

when did "Mexican" become a race? Doesn't Mexican have to be race in order for this to be a racist joke?

richierich

06-09-2003, 02:08 PM

Take your ass to the Back of the Yards neighborhood (Mexicans) and try the joke out.. let us know how it went over!! Or for all of us African Americans let's see how you take jokes with racial overtones.. sheesh peeps are in real denial.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 02:09 PM

It is racially derogatory - not by its specific language but for what MAKES IT FUNNY.

What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this.

This is what the joke is contrasted against. Comedy isn't funny for what it says but for what it REVEALS.

What is really funny is how none of you DEFENDERS are in touch with your own thoughts, conscious or otherwise, when considering such things.

So easy a protic can do it (QUAD)

06-09-2003, 02:09 PM

ok, let's try this again:
Originally posted by DJ QUAD:
OK, HAS ANYONE HAD THEIR "UVULA" TODAY?!?! IT NOW COMES IN GRAPE AND CHERRY FLAVOR!!......MMMMM,DELICIOUS!!! EVERYBODY HAVE SOME!!!!!! Diet and fat free versions available soon............ graemlins/beerchug.gif

pronounced "yoo-vee-yoo-lah"

MYOR

06-09-2003, 02:09 PM

Originally posted by JL:
so you can be a racist when you're not offending anyone? kind of like the Klan sitting around a burning cross making ch_nk and n_gger jokes right? No I just think people are drowning in a glass of water...

There are plenty of jokes that can be said about a country doesn't mean you're racist...

and the reference you made to n*gger jokes is just not relavent here.. Cuz you know they are racist and the jokes are being said to degrade you.. which is not the case here...

And

06-09-2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Discogoddess:
I don't think people misread it. I think that the word "Mexican," as opposed to say, "Spanish," is the defining thing that makes this joke borderline/inappropriate. To pretend that a joke that begins with "What do Mexicans...?" isn't a potential source of offense is ridiculous. What are you talking about?!?!?!? Speedy was Mexican, not "Spanish." The joke doesn't make sense if you say "Spanish." This is ridiculous, for real. [/QUOTE]exactly my point, the statement is loaded. think critically about this, i'll help you out by pointing out the 3 main things to keep in mind here:

1. The joke specifically targets Mexicans, not Spanish, although the words the joke references are Spanish. The reasoning behind this are made clear now by the Speedy Gonzales reference and it's prevalance in the vernacular and you admitting the joke wouldn't make sense if he didn't say Mexican.

2. IF he said Mexicans were lazy or slow, it would be highly offensive.

3. Think about why Speedy Gonzales saying "andale! andale!", within the context of certain Mexican and Mexican-American stereotypes would be offensive as shit.

4. Apply all of the above to the joke in question. [/QUOTE]but JL do you not see how YOU are reading all of this into the joke based on your experiences and your knowledge of the fact that Speedy was pulled off the air for being racist. Is it not possible for you to step out of your perspective and accept that other people are not reading everything you are into certain words, do not have the same points of reference you do therefore can not really be accused of all the offenses you're charging here.

richierich

06-09-2003, 02:11 PM

Originally posted by darrow:
third ignorant question...

when did "Mexican" become a race? Doesn't Mexican have to be race in order for this to be a racist joke? Yeah that was a stupid question... way to add to the stupidity.. I had you pegged for being more intelligent and not be in such denial. And the author of this bullshit ran and hid and hasn't said shit else... please!!

[ June 09, 2003, 03:18 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

So easy a protic can do it (QUAD)

06-09-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by DJ QUAD:
ok, let's try a third time: <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ QUAD:
OK, HAS ANYONE HAD THEIR "UVULA" TODAY?!?! IT NOW COMES IN GRAPE AND CHERRY FLAVOR!!......MMMMM,DELICIOUS!!! EVERYBODY HAVE SOME!!!!!! Diet and fat free versions available soon............ graemlins/beerchug.gif

pronounced "yoo-vee-yoo-lah" [/QUOTE]

Moksha

06-09-2003, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Discogoddess:
I don't think people misread it. I think that the word "Mexican," as opposed to say, "Spanish," is the defining thing that makes this joke borderline/inappropriate. To pretend that a joke that begins with "What do Mexicans...?" isn't a potential source of offense is ridiculous. What are you talking about?!?!?!? Speedy was Mexican, not "Spanish." The joke doesn't make sense if you say "Spanish." This is ridiculous, for real. [/QUOTE]exactly my point, the statement is loaded. think critically about this, i'll help you out by pointing out the 3 main things to keep in mind here:

1. The joke specifically targets Mexicans, not Spanish, although the words the joke references are Spanish. The reasoning behind this are made clear now by the Speedy Gonzales reference and it's prevalance in the vernacular and you admitting the joke wouldn't make sense if he didn't say Mexican.

2. IF he said Mexicans were lazy or slow, it would be highly offensive.

3. Think about why Speedy Gonzales saying "andale! andale!", within the context of certain Mexican and Mexican-American stereotypes would be offensive as shit.

4. Apply all of the above to the joke in question. [/QUOTE]Wow...do you analyze every joke to this degree when you hear it?

I'll make you a deal: I will NEVER comment on another one of these ridiculous situations here, if you promise to never post anything that could be seen as prejudiced or stereotyping against women, homosexuals or ethnicities on the Kuo (and yes, that includes pornography).

Deal?

Otherwise, your hypocracy in criticizing me here is just WAY too ironic to take seriously.

06-09-2003, 02:14 PM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Discogoddess:
I don't think people misread it. I think that the word "Mexican," as opposed to say, "Spanish," is the defining thing that makes this joke borderline/inappropriate. To pretend that a joke that begins with "What do Mexicans...?" isn't a potential source of offense is ridiculous. What are you talking about?!?!?!? Speedy was Mexican, not "Spanish." The joke doesn't make sense if you say "Spanish." This is ridiculous, for real. [/QUOTE]exactly my point, the statement is loaded. think critically about this, i'll help you out by pointing out the 3 main things to keep in mind here:

1. The joke specifically targets Mexicans, not Spanish, although the words the joke references are Spanish. The reasoning behind this are made clear now by the Speedy Gonzales reference and it's prevalance in the vernacular and you admitting the joke wouldn't make sense if he didn't say Mexican.

2. IF he said Mexicans were lazy or slow, it would be highly offensive.

3. Think about why Speedy Gonzales saying "andale! andale!", within the context of certain Mexican and Mexican-American stereotypes would be offensive as shit.

4. Apply all of the above to the joke in question. [/QUOTE]Orion, I know SG is Mexican. My point is, and if you knew how to read you would have seen this already, is that the joke specifically referenced Mexicans. This is by design, and by design hurtful based on the things we have discussed.

So easy a protic can do it (QUAD)

06-09-2003, 02:16 PM

WE NOW HAVE "FABA" GRAVY FLAVORED JELLO PUDDING POP AVAILABLE AT YOUR NEAREST "TURNSTYLE" DEPT STORE...........

Moksha

06-09-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
What are you talking about?!?!?!? Speedy was Mexican, not "Spanish." The joke doesn't make sense if you say "Spanish." This is ridiculous, for real. Hold on, cowboy! The joke didn't specifically refer to Speedy Gonzalez; I introduced him into the thread as an example of cultural icons that have racially charged histories and/or have caused offense/controversy. And, if you didn't know, you can actually be Spanish (uh, like, from Spain), not just speak the language. My point in continuing to ask why the joke referred to Mexicans specifically was because there tends to be a "built-in" ASSumption in these kinds of joke that is untoward, IMHO. [/QUOTE]Ouch! You got me with the old "ASSumption" thing. Good going!

By the way...you did not introduce Speedy into this thread. It was implied in the joke.

darrow

06-09-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this.
This is what I was hoping someone would articulate for me, because I truly was not getting HOW the joke was offensive.

Bold Soul, so it sounds like you are saying the joke is offensive because it makes fun of how Mexican's speak?

If that's what you are saying, I still don't see that in the joke. Underlay Underlay? Instead of andale andale? It seems to just substitute one word for the other since they sound alike but...somehow when reading the joke, it's just not even a well put-together joke...not put-together enough to even be offensive.

I consider myself mr. sensitive, but I'm having a hard time with this one.

Discogoddess

06-09-2003, 02:16 PM

Why don't we all chill and just take a moment to admire the pic of those cold azz broads above? Dem hoes is fine as hell...
;)

And by hoes I mean the gardening instruments, so no one can be offended by my statements, I'm sure. :D :D

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 02:17 PM

Again, what makes this joke funny is American angst with Mexican American language usage. That makes it specific, derogatory and inappropriate.

This is why Craig didn't use the term "What does a spanish speaking person have under the carpet."

For the joke to be funny, it requires a BUTT of the joke - in this case, Mexicans. The only way it is funny is if there is underlying angst for some aspect of Mexican American experience, conscious or unconscious, in the mind of the person who enjoys the joke.

Yea, I'm smart. Smart than a muthafuka - and I can fight too.

Koffy Brown

06-09-2003, 02:17 PM

So why aren't the "Yo' mama so Black" jokes considered racial...I find them to be the most offensive...

we are all hypocrites when it comes to these type of topics..

06-09-2003, 02:19 PM

I'm sensitive to this issue, and chose to fight this particular battle to illustrate a point. How many people on the DHP will jump up at the first sign of ignorance or insensitivity to black issues, but let slights at other minorites (latino, asian, women, gay) pass them by?

I'm trained as an anthropologist, I can't help but deconstruct statements, especially ones that are culturally loaded. Sometimes I can laugh at how clever a joke is (as many are on the kuo), but this isn't even a clever joke. As for my track record there, I've never posted porn, rarely make racial jokes (except against whitey, and that's okay), was one of the first to get pissy about the picture in d's forum, and only make fun of Matthew and you for being closet lovers in the hopes that you will come out and free yourselves and your sexuality.

darrow

06-09-2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by richierich:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darrow:
third ignorant question...

when did "Mexican" become a race? Doesn't Mexican have to be race in order for this to be a racist joke? Yeah that was a stupid question... way to add to the stupidity.. I had you pegged for being more intelligent and not be in such denial. [/QUOTE]Hmmm...denial about what?

Discogoddess

06-09-2003, 02:19 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
...By the way...you did not introduce Speedy into this thread. It was implied in the joke. Okay, then, in the spirit of being as technically correct as you (since I aspire to that, of course), I will say that I was the person who first typed the words "Speedy Gonzalez" together in this thread. K? :D

Discogoddess

06-09-2003, 02:20 PM

Originally posted by Discogoddess:
Why don't we all chill and just take a moment to admire the pic of those cold azz broads above? Dem hoes is fine as hell...
;)

And by hoes I mean the gardening instruments, so no one can be offended by my statements, I'm sure. :D :D ^

Moksha

06-09-2003, 02:22 PM

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 02:25 PM

This entire thread reveals why I have very few friends.

Most people aren't intelligent enough to strive to see things in more ways than just the way that brings them the pleasure of bring "right".

Konbit/Orion, for example, makes the most passionate and strenuous ONE DIMENSIONAL arguements about this sort of thing. It's typical - just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it a lie.

You all could take this as an indication that deeper thinking is required, but the intoxication of being right is far too important to you. In the process, you have offended many who may be of value to you in the future.

People who think such as you cause more problems than they are able to correct. It is those who choose to think in other dimensions than those that are obvious who are left to explain your ****-ups.

Suckas all.

richierich

06-09-2003, 02:26 PM

It's funny how people try to get you to believe that their racial shit can be justified by trying to break shit down.... in the end it's still racism.. you need to check yourselves. But I guess you can get away with it on a message board.
Racist don't think they are racist.. most of the time.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by richierich:
It's funny how people try to get you to believe that their racial shit can be justified by trying to break shit down.... in the end it's still racism.. you need to check yourselves. But I guess you can get away with it on a message board.
Racist don't think they are racist.. most of the time. Exactly - Orion/Konbit would rather labor tirelessly to get a multitude to change their minds than spend a mouse-fart's worth of energy to think about how his own point of view could be the problem.

Worthless.

06-09-2003, 02:28 PM

Its a cross cultural pun, nothing more, nothing less...
Freedom Fries anyone.....?

D J 1 3 8

06-09-2003, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
It is racially derogatory - not by its specific language but for what MAKES IT FUNNY.

What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this.

This is what the joke is contrasted against. Comedy isn't funny for what it says but for what it REVEALS.

What is really funny is how none of you DEFENDERS are in touch with your own thoughts, conscious or otherwise, when considering such things. I agree with most of what you said. It is true that many jokes are racist becuz of what they imply. But I will nevertheless insist that that explanation doesn't apply to this dumb-ass joke.

You are reading WAY too much into this joke. Specifically your coment below:

"What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this."

IMO, That is a huge assumption, and really not true in this case. What is supposed to make this joke funny (which it's not, but I guess that's beside the point now) is simply the pronunciation of the word underlay, since it not only sounds similar to the Spanish word "andale", but that it also brings to mind a certain mouse (AKA Speedy Gonzalez), and his specific pronunciation of that word (his catchphrase, as it were).

I think what the DEFENDERS of this dumb-ass joke are arguing is that: just because a joke has the word "Mexicans" in it, doesn't necessarily make it a racially insensitive joke to Mexican people or anyone else.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 02:30 PM

Originally posted by JL:

I'm trained as an anthropologist, I can't help but deconstruct statements, especially ones that are culturally loaded. Sometimes I can laugh at how clever a joke is (as many are on the kuo), but this isn't even a clever joke. As for my track record there, I've never posted porn, rarely make racial jokes (except against whitey, and that's okay), was one of the first to get pissy about the picture in d's forum, and only make fun of Matthew and you for being closet lovers in the hopes that you will come out and free yourselves and your sexuality. So? I'm trained as a media critic/theorist. I am relatively well versed numerous forms of deconstruction. But if I applied them to every joke, cliché, word and other function of language, I'd go insane with over analysis and cultural sensitivity.

I agree that this isn't a very clever joke (few puns are). But don't give me that shit about how "clever" the Kuo's "you're fat/you're gay/etc." jokes are.

Now that I am so aware of your 25 years of oppression, your admitted sensitivity to ethnic joking, and anthropology training...I expect to see you making much more of a fuss over there.

MYOR

06-09-2003, 02:30 PM

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
It is racially derogatory - not by its specific language but for what MAKES IT FUNNY.

What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this.

This is what the joke is contrasted against. Comedy isn't funny for what it says but for what it REVEALS.

What is really funny is how none of you DEFENDERS are in touch with your own thoughts, conscious or otherwise, when considering such things. I agree with most of what you said. It is true that many jokes are racist becuz of what they imply. But I will nevertheless insist that that explanation doesn't apply to this dumb-ass joke.

You are reading WAY too much into this joke. Specifically your coment below:

"What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this."

IMO, That is a huge assumption, and really not true in this case. What is supposed to make this joke funny (which it's not, but I guess that's beside the point now) is simply the pronunciation of the word underlay, since it not only sounds similar to the Spanish word "andale", but that it also brings to mind a certain mouse (AKA Speedy Gonzalez), and his specific pronunciation of that word (his catchphrase, as it were).

I think what the DEFENDERS of this dumb-ass joke are arguing is that: just because a joke has the word "Mexicans" in it, doesn't necessarily make it a racially insensitive joke to Mexican people or anyone else. [/QUOTE]How does a Liberal tie a noose?

With intellectual sensitivity.

[ June 09, 2003, 03:31 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

Koffy Brown

06-09-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
This entire thread reveals why I have very few friends.

Most people aren't intelligent enough to strive to see things in more ways than just the way that brings them the pleasure of bring "right".

Konbit/Orion, for example, makes the most passionate and strenuous ONE DIMENSIONAL arguements about this sort of thing. It's typical - just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it a lie.

You all could take this as an indication that deeper thinking is required, but the intoxication of being right is far too important to you. In the process, you have offended many who may be of value to you in the future.

People who think such as you cause more problems than they are able to correct. It is those who choose to think in other dimensions than those that are obvious who are left to explain your ****-ups.

Suckas all. I need to ask you this...why do you feel the need to interpret things for everyone? Seriously, you are going to keel over dead from trying to correct every politically incorrect (in your eyes) person that ou may come across. Seriously, have you ever thought that people say what they mean and mean what they say, regardless of how right or wrong you may think it is. Not everyone needs a clean up man...

The joke isn't funny to me because I don't quite understand the joke just as with the rape joke...it wasn't funny because I didn't get it, and besides I just couldn't figure out how you could make a joke about rape...

I just don't get it, I don't see any of you all opposing the Yo' mama so Black jokes...are those funny to you? Like I said before we could all be conceived as being hypocritical when it comes to racial issues...

SENSE MGMT

06-09-2003, 02:31 PM

Racist? I thought the joke was just one of them lame ass grammar school play on word jokes?

Makes you chuckle. How could anyone possibly think that was a racist joke? Seriously you people are way too sensitive.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by Ashaki:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
This entire thread reveals why I have very few friends.

Most people aren't intelligent enough to strive to see things in more ways than just the way that brings them the pleasure of bring "right".

Konbit/Orion, for example, makes the most passionate and strenuous ONE DIMENSIONAL arguements about this sort of thing. It's typical - just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it a lie.

You all could take this as an indication that deeper thinking is required, but the intoxication of being right is far too important to you. In the process, you have offended many who may be of value to you in the future.

People who think such as you cause more problems than they are able to correct. It is those who choose to think in other dimensions than those that are obvious who are left to explain your ****-ups.

Suckas all. I need to ask you this...why do you feel the need to interpret things for everyone? Seriously, you are going to keel over dead from trying to correct every politically incorrect (in your eyes) person that ou may come across. Seriously, have you ever thought that people say what they mean and mean what they say, regardless of how right or wrong you may think it is. Not everyone needs a clean up man...

The joke isn't funny to me because I don't quite understand the joke just as with the rape joke...it wasn't funny because I didn't get it, and besides I just couldn't figure out how you could make a joke about rape...

I just don't get it, I don't see any of you all opposing the Yo' mama so Black jokes...are those funny to you? Like I said before we could all be conceived as being hypocritical when it comes to racial issues... [/QUOTE]First of all, I'm not interested in correcting anything for anyone. If the example serves, I enjoy examining the example.

Second of all, I have never seen a "Your mama's so black" joke on the board. If I had, there would have been a fight.

Racial jokes are not funny to me, in the slightest. I allow NO gray area for this bullshit. None!

06-09-2003, 02:35 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
So? I'm trained as a media critic/theorist. I am relatively well versed numerous forms of deconstruction. But if I applied them to every joke, cliché, word and other function of language, I'd go insane with over analysis and cultural sensitivity.
As insane as I am, and have been in the past, and rightly so. If you start to become aware of how much crap is floating out there, you would feel right to feel insane. Perhaps it's just this kind of critical thinking that is needed to address the injustices out there. The worst insanity comes when you become aware of your own conditioning, when you see the truth about yourself. Believe me, it isn't fun to deal with.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
So? I'm trained as a media critic/theorist. I am relatively well versed numerous forms of deconstruction. But if I applied them to every joke, cliché, word and other function of language, I'd go insane with over analysis and cultural sensitivity.
As insane as I am, and have been in the past, and rightly so. If you start to become aware of how much crap is floating out there, you would feel right to feel insane. Perhaps it's just this kind of critical thinking that is needed to address the injustices out there. The worst insanity comes when you become aware of your own conditioning, when you see the truth about yourself. Believe me, it isn't fun to deal with. [/QUOTE]Does anyone know a good tattoo parlor, because I'm going to get JL's statement written on my chest.

Bravo!

D J 1 3 8

06-09-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
It is racially derogatory - not by its specific language but for what MAKES IT FUNNY.

What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this.

This is what the joke is contrasted against. Comedy isn't funny for what it says but for what it REVEALS.

What is really funny is how none of you DEFENDERS are in touch with your own thoughts, conscious or otherwise, when considering such things. I agree with most of what you said. It is true that many jokes are racist becuz of what they imply. But I will nevertheless insist that that explanation doesn't apply to this dumb-ass joke.

You are reading WAY too much into this joke. Specifically your coment below:

"What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this."

IMO, That is a huge assumption, and really not true in this case. What is supposed to make this joke funny (which it's not, but I guess that's beside the point now) is simply the pronunciation of the word underlay, since it not only sounds similar to the Spanish word "andale", but that it also brings to mind a certain mouse (AKA Speedy Gonzalez), and his specific pronunciation of that word (his catchphrase, as it were).

I think what the DEFENDERS of this dumb-ass joke are arguing is that: just because a joke has the word "Mexicans" in it, doesn't necessarily make it a racially insensitive joke to Mexican people or anyone else. [/QUOTE]How does a Liberal tie a noose?

With intellectual sensitivity. [/QUOTE]Clever but really not a rebuttal...
as you wish ;)

06-09-2003, 02:38 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
So? I'm trained as a media critic/theorist. I am relatively well versed numerous forms of deconstruction. But if I applied them to every joke, cliché, word and other function of language, I'd go insane with over analysis and cultural sensitivity.
As insane as I am, and have been in the past, and rightly so. If you start to become aware of how much crap is floating out there, you would feel right to feel insane. Perhaps it's just this kind of critical thinking that is needed to address the injustices out there. The worst insanity comes when you become aware of your own conditioning, when you see the truth about yourself. Believe me, it isn't fun to deal with. [/QUOTE]Does anyone know a good tattoo parlor, because I'm going to get JL's statement written on my chest.

Bravo! [/QUOTE]stop flirting with me, i'm spoken for.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
It is racially derogatory - not by its specific language but for what MAKES IT FUNNY.

What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this.

This is what the joke is contrasted against. Comedy isn't funny for what it says but for what it REVEALS.

What is really funny is how none of you DEFENDERS are in touch with your own thoughts, conscious or otherwise, when considering such things. I agree with most of what you said. It is true that many jokes are racist becuz of what they imply. But I will nevertheless insist that that explanation doesn't apply to this dumb-ass joke.

You are reading WAY too much into this joke. Specifically your coment below:

"What makes it funny is the reality of American disdain for how Mexicans retain their language once they arrive in America. English is a second language to many second and third generation Mexican Americans. Most resent this."

IMO, That is a huge assumption, and really not true in this case. What is supposed to make this joke funny (which it's not, but I guess that's beside the point now) is simply the pronunciation of the word underlay, since it not only sounds similar to the Spanish word "andale", but that it also brings to mind a certain mouse (AKA Speedy Gonzalez), and his specific pronunciation of that word (his catchphrase, as it were).

I think what the DEFENDERS of this dumb-ass joke are arguing is that: just because a joke has the word "Mexicans" in it, doesn't necessarily make it a racially insensitive joke to Mexican people or anyone else. [/QUOTE]How does a Liberal tie a noose?

With intellectual sensitivity. [/QUOTE]Clever but really not a rebuttal...
as you wish ;) [/QUOTE]C'man...

Some people approach situations such as these with no thinking at all. Some with a philosophical point of view, some with an anthropological/cultural point of view and some with a Humanities point of view.

It is possible to employ varying points of view to look at something such as this from several different dimensions.

But then, why would anyone do that? It's only a few mexicans that got offended. They shouldn't be so sensitive. :rolleyes:

darrow

06-09-2003, 02:41 PM

I guess some would pass this thread off as dumb, but I find it interesting, primarily because it is making me think. I am truly sitting here trying to see the seriousness in the joke...trying to examine what some would think of as "my sh$t" and just don't see it. And the things is...I know that I am not 100% culturally sensitive. If there is anyone that truly is 100%...

Congratulations, you've arrived and are no longer in need of self-improvement (at least when it comes to cultural sensitivity)!

martin

06-09-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by JL:
I've never posted porn, rarely make racial jokes (except against whitey, and that's okay),Is it ok to make jokes about whitey and not about mexicans?

Leslie

06-09-2003, 02:46 PM

Is it me or is this yet another set up...of which I have been guilty of jumping into in the past...

Koffy Brown

06-09-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
I've never posted porn, rarely make racial jokes (except against whitey, and that's okay),Is it ok to make jokes about whitey and not about mexicans? [/QUOTE]I didn't get this either... graemlins/conf44.gif was it a joke gone bad... :rolleyes:

MYOR

06-09-2003, 02:46 PM

Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
This entire thread reveals why I have very few friends.

Most people aren't intelligent enough to strive to see things in more ways than just the way that brings them the pleasure of bring "right".

Konbit/Orion, for example, makes the most passionate and strenuous ONE DIMENSIONAL arguements about this sort of thing. It's typical - just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it a lie.

You all could take this as an indication that deeper thinking is required, but the intoxication of being right is far too important to you. In the process, you have offended many who may be of value to you in the future.

People who think such as you cause more problems than they are able to correct. It is those who choose to think in other dimensions than those that are obvious who are left to explain your ****-ups.

Suckas all. This I find highly interesting becuase people don't agree with you think we are all suckas..

So you try to defend your point by insulting everyone elses intellegence... [/QUOTE]Again I ask.. What makes you feel you are smarter than anyone.. and that we all have to bow down and agree with what you say...

Please don't try to make yourself higher by insulting other people!!!

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by Leslie:
Is it me or is this yet another set up...of which I have been guilty of jumping into in the past... Oh, totally another set-up. It is still a rewarding conversation from a humanities point of view.

Shit - Craig revealed himself with the rape joke thing. graemlins/rofl.gif

MYOR

06-09-2003, 02:49 PM

Originally posted by Ashaki:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
I've never posted porn, rarely make racial jokes (except against whitey, and that's okay),Is it ok to make jokes about whitey and not about mexicans? [/QUOTE]I didn't get this either... graemlins/conf44.gif was it a joke gone bad... :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]Seems to be that in this page its ok to insult white people.. just not any other ethnicity graemlins/spanka.gif

Moksha

06-09-2003, 02:50 PM

-Q.t5lriginally posted by Bold Soul:
This entire thread reveals why I have very few friends.

Most people aren't intelligent enough to strive to see things in more ways than just the way that brings them the pleasure of bring "right".

Konbit/Orion, for example, makes the most passionate and strenuous ONE DIMENSIONAL arguements about this sort of thing. It's typical - just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it a lie.

You all could take this as an indication that deeper thinking is required, but the intoxication of being right is far too important to you. In the process, you have offended many who may be of value to you in the future.

People who think such as you cause more problems than they are able to correct. It is those who choose to think in other dimensions than those that are obvious who are left to explain your ****-ups.

Suckas all.

Continued...

Exactly - Orion/Konbit would rather labor tirelessly to get a multitude to change their minds than spend a mouse-fart's worth of energy to think about how his own point of view could be the problem.
Worthless.[/QUOTE]

Here we go again...

Since you attacked me specifically, by name, I feel obliged to reply.

Your holier-than-thou, "I'm so intelligent" bullshit is super-
graemlins/sleep2.gif graemlins/sleep2.gif

I'm sure your brain is huge, and that you have the ability to see everything from every angle, as you love to point out.

However, believe it or not, others (myself included) are able to analyze things from multiple perspectives too! And just because we come to different conclusions than you, does not mean that we refuse to see things from a number of perspectives before finding one that is "right."

True, your tone is more Platonic than mine, (I tend to write "passionately" as a way of saving space and time to get points across). However your actions are exactly the same. You choose a position, then you explain the lines of reasoning that you used in coming to it. Except, if you are Bold Soul, you pause between lines of reasoning to question the intellectual prowess of those who disagree with you.

You came to a conclusion that differs than mine. Fine, but just like you, I took more than a few mouse farts to see the other side (originally, I was expecting to criticize the joke).

P.S. Until you have my academic records/writings, IQ tests, or even a real life conversation with me...please refrain from commenting on my intelligence or "deeper thinking" abilities.

06-09-2003, 02:51 PM

yes, it was an inside joke from me to orion in reference to certain things said in another board.

Koffy Brown

06-09-2003, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by Leslie:
Is it me or is this yet another set up...of which I have been guilty of jumping into in the past... Welp! page 5 graemlins/rofl.gif

06-09-2003, 02:53 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
This entire thread reveals why I have very few friends.

Not true! You've got one right here and I'm sure you have many more. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I'm out.

[ June 09, 2003, 03:55 PM: Message edited by: Albert D. ]

Moksha

06-09-2003, 02:54 PM

Koffy Brown

06-09-2003, 02:55 PM

Originally posted by JL:
yes, it was an inside joke from me to orion in reference to certain things said in another board. Point in case...it was a joke to you, but not funny to others...Can you dig it?

martin

06-09-2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by JL:
yes, it was an inside joke from me to orion in reference to certain things said in another board. You should be careful what you write, unless you don't care that you might offend someone.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
Would this apply if the pun were on a French word? A German word? A British (as opposed to American English) word? Because there exists hundreds of stupid puns just like this that play with the differences and similarities between languages. I ask again...

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
So? I'm trained as a media critic/theorist. I am relatively well versed numerous forms of deconstruction. But if I applied them to every joke, cliché, word and other function of language, I'd go insane with over analysis and cultural sensitivity.
As insane as I am, and have been in the past, and rightly so. If you start to become aware of how much crap is floating out there, you would feel right to feel insane. Perhaps it's just this kind of critical thinking that is needed to address the injustices out there. The worst insanity comes when you become aware of your own conditioning, when you see the truth about yourself. Believe me, it isn't fun to deal with. [/QUOTE]Does anyone know a good tattoo parlor, because I'm going to get JL's statement written on my chest.

Bravo! [/QUOTE]Please do! The irony of you two expounding on the importance of analysis and deconstruction but totally missing the point is too much! [/QUOTE]Thank you for pointing out the difference between our rhetoric - yours is PASSIONATE and mine is PLATONIC. I agree and thank you for the designations.

In other words, to you, everyone is wrong for not seeing things the way you do. To me, I am OFFERING people a way to see things differently. My M.O. is clear - I intend to affect others and change minds. Period. No concealment on my part.

Passion without temperance is folly - but then I am certain you understand this already.

SENSE MGMT

06-09-2003, 03:01 PM

It's a play on words. How could anyone possibly think it was racist. A racist joke is like what's the difference between a Jew and a Pizza?

I'm not gonna divulge the answer cus it's just plain evil, but funny no less. And in the end of the day their just jokes. Just cus you tell them doesn't make you a racist. If you hate a race THEN you are racist...you sensitive shmucks, which is jewish for the detached foreskin.

06-09-2003, 03:02 PM

Orion, why is it so hard to understand?

1. Intent - Craig posts this after he posts a rape joke, his insensitivity and ignorance are evident in that.

2. You yourself said the joke wouldn't be funny if you replaced "Mexican" with "Spanish" or "Argentine" or "Spanish speaking person" for that matter. Mexicans are the butt of the joke here, and everyone here got the joke because they are familar with 2 things: 1. The saying "andale! andale!" made popular by the racist cartoon Speedy Gonzales and 2. A Mexican stereotype that they are slow/lazy/whatever that was accutely referred to by said cartoon.

3. Although in certain contexts I may agree with you that this isn't THAT offensive of a joke, given the circumstance that it was made by someone who is also able to find humor in rape, I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt here.

4. The same people who may have found Donger's "but have you seen her ass" comment offensive are often the same ones objectifying women, laughing at ethnic humor made about latinos/gays/asians/whites. The end to these sort of cultural problems aren't mitigated by only being aware of slights against minority groups that you are a part of, but rather when you are aware of all of these things and awakened to a painful, insane reality. Once there, you can't help but feel compelled to do something about it.

06-09-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
yes, it was an inside joke from me to orion in reference to certain things said in another board. You should be careful what you write, unless you don't care that you might offend someone. [/QUOTE]exactly my point

hook... line... sinker..

Moksha

06-09-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Some people approach situations such as these with no thinking at all. Some with a philosophical point of view, some with an anthropological/cultural point of view and some with a Humanities point of view.

It is possible to employ varying points of view to look at something such as this from several different dimensions.

But then, why would anyone do that? It's only a few mexicans that got offended. They shouldn't be so sensitive. :rolleyes: Thanks for teaching us all that you can analyze issues with more than one perspective! Once again, you've proved your intellectual superiority. Toss in a little bit of academic jargon and a few more McCarthyist accusations about other's intellegence, and you'll prove how right yoou are (though, of course, being right isn't important to you).

Back to the issue!

Where are the Mexicans that got offended that you are refering to?

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by JL:
Orion, why is it so hard to understand?

1. Intent - Craig posts this after he posts a rape joke, his insensitivity and ignorance are evident in that.

2. You yourself said the joke wouldn't be funny if you replaced "Mexican" with "Spanish" or "Argentine" or "Spanish speaking person" for that matter. Mexicans are the butt of the joke here, and everyone here got the joke because they are familar with 2 things: 1. The saying "andale! andale!" made popular by the racist cartoon Speedy Gonzales and 2. A Mexican stereotype that they are slow/lazy/whatever that was accutely referred to by said cartoon.

3. Although in certain contexts I may agree with you that this isn't THAT offensive of a joke, given the circumstance that it was made by someone who is also able to find humor in rape, I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt here.

4. The same people who may have found Donger's "but have you seen her ass" comment offensive are often the same ones objectifying women, laughing at ethnic humor made about latinos/gays/asians/whites. The end to these sort of cultural problems aren't mitigated by only being aware of slights against minority groups that you are a part of, but rather when you are aware of all of these things and awakened to a painful, insane reality. Once there, you can't help but feel compelled to do something about it. Good observations!

We have seen the PHILOSOPHICAL arguement - that people are offended by what they choose and no one should take it so seriously.

We have seen the ANTHROPOLOGICAL/CULTURAL arguement that deals with race and culture as the determinate.

We have yet to engage in the HUMANITES aspect.

Humanities are the constructs of human behavior that effect and shape every day life and the evolution of society. JL, RichieRich, myself and others have been asserting the humanities aspect all along.

For those who can't see this, why don't you take a look at the other conflicts in your life and relate them to this arguement.

MYOR

06-09-2003, 03:09 PM

BOLD SOUL, Still waiting for your ans...

06-09-2003, 03:10 PM

**** the philosophical/anthropological/whatever arguments, i like richierich's the best.

go up to some big mexican stranger and say this joke to their face. let us know what happens.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Thank you for pointing out the difference between our rhetoric - yours is PASSIONATE and mine is PLATONIC. I agree and thank you for the designations.

In other words, to you, everyone is wrong for not seeing things the way you do. To me, I am OFFERING people a way to see things differently. My M.O. is clear - I intend to affect others and change minds. Period. No concealment on my part.

Passion without temperance is folly - but then I am certain you understand this already. You should be careful about mis-quoting people. It's a diservice to your own argument.

I said "tone," not "rhetoric."

I am sitting at work doing a lot of other things. I do not have the time to lay out arguments in a Platonic way (though I would say my REASONING is more Platonic than yours). Doing that correctly would take up much more space and time.

You use a Platonic TONE (in short, incomplete bursts) with the aim of convicing others.

Please quote me acurately in the future.

Cheers!

And

06-09-2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
I've never posted porn, rarely make racial jokes (except against whitey, and that's okay),Is it ok to make jokes about whitey and not about mexicans? [/QUOTE]I didn't get this either... graemlins/conf44.gif was it a joke gone bad... :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]Seems to be that in this page its ok to insult white people.. just not any other ethnicity graemlins/spanka.gif [/QUOTE]I'm curious to find out the answer to this too.
and Ashaki ... good points.

darrow

06-09-2003, 03:11 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
We have yet to engage in the HUMANITES aspect.

Humanities are the constructs of human behavior that effect and shape every day life and the evolution of society. JL, RichieRich, myself and others have been asserting the humanities aspect all along.

For those who can't see this, why don't you take a look at the other conflicts in your life and relate them to this arguement. Bold Soul, how would you categorize the joke?

Racist?
Offensive but not racist?
In poor taste?
Dumb
All
Other: ____________

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Some people approach situations such as these with no thinking at all. Some with a philosophical point of view, some with an anthropological/cultural point of view and some with a Humanities point of view.

It is possible to employ varying points of view to look at something such as this from several different dimensions.

But then, why would anyone do that? It's only a few mexicans that got offended. They shouldn't be so sensitive. :rolleyes: Thanks for teaching us all that you can analyze issues with more than one perspective! Once again, you've proved your intellectual superiority. Toss in a little bit of academic jargon and a few more McCarthyist accusations about other's intellegence, and you'll prove how right yoou are (though, of course, being right isn't important to you).

Back to the issue!

Where are the Mexicans that got offended that you are refering to? [/QUOTE]Orion/Konbit - you are a walking fallacy of logic. First, you fabricate judgement against my character. McCarthyism? Demagoguery at its best. Anyone who cares to know me knows what my intentions are.

Second, you project your insecurities about intelligence on me. That my confident communication style affects you negatively has less to do with me than you.

Finally, you make some lame call about "where are the mexicans that were offended"? Should I get a list together for you or will common sense suffice?

Your kung-fu is full of holes.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by JL:
**** the philosophical/anthropological/whatever arguments, i like richierich's the best.

go up to some big mexican stranger and say this joke to their face. let us know what happens. Go to a tough gay club and try some of the Kuo's "You're such a fag" joking there and see what happens.

Go to a Feminist forum and and talk about how much you like so-and-so's breasts, as on the Kuo, and see what happens.

Of the three choices, I think going to the Mexican guy and telling him the joke would be the best bet....since it the only one that is not inherently offensive. If the guy you talked to hapenned to be familiar with the cartoon and lacked a degree in semiotics, he might even find it funny....though probably less so than the "lettuce be friends" classic.

darrow

06-09-2003, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by JL:
**** the philosophical/anthropological/whatever arguments, i like richierich's the best.

go up to some big mexican stranger and say this joke to their face. let us know what happens. Let's say the result of someone going up to a big mexican stranger and telling this joke is that the joke teller gets punched in the face, that then means what about the joke?

I'm asking thinking that your reasoning will become clearer to me.

DOTSmusic

06-09-2003, 03:16 PM

i'm part Mexican and i didn't find the joke to be offensive at all. STUPID as hell, and certainly not funny in the least bit.
but not offensive.

i have heard countless jokes about Mexicans throughout the years and have laughed at all the ones that were funny. just as i laugh at any funny joke made about other races.
i guess i just have the ability to distinguish Hatred, and Jokes.

i wouldn't laugh if someone told me that they tied a Mexican to horse and dragged him to his death. (some might find that hillarious).
but if it's some light hearted shit, yeah i'll laugh. people need lighten up and learn to laugh at themselves.

just because you think it's wrong doesn't mean it is.

06-09-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
**** the philosophical/anthropological/whatever arguments, i like richierich's the best.

go up to some big mexican stranger and say this joke to their face. let us know what happens. Let's say the result of someone going up to a big mexican stranger and telling this joke is that the joke teller gets punched in the face, that then means what about the joke?

I'm asking thinking that your reasoning will become clearer to me. [/QUOTE]would you be willing to say this joke to a big mexican stranger?

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Thank you for pointing out the difference between our rhetoric - yours is PASSIONATE and mine is PLATONIC. I agree and thank you for the designations.

In other words, to you, everyone is wrong for not seeing things the way you do. To me, I am OFFERING people a way to see things differently. My M.O. is clear - I intend to affect others and change minds. Period. No concealment on my part.

Passion without temperance is folly - but then I am certain you understand this already. You should be careful about mis-quoting people. It's a diservice to your own argument.

I said "tone," not "rhetoric."

I am sitting at work doing a lot of other things. I do not have the time to lay out arguments in a Platonic way (though I would say my REASONING is more Platonic than yours). Doing that correctly would take up much more space and time.

You use a Platonic TONE (in short, incomplete bursts) with the aim of convicing others.

Please quote me acurately in the future.

Cheers! [/QUOTE]Simple word usage, Orion/Konbit -

Tone is the manner in which rhetoric is delivered, Platonic is an adjective - the descriptor of said rhetoric.

Again, a walking fallacy of logic. You're the type of guy that gets his non-white friends beat up in segregated bars, aren't you?

06-09-2003, 03:21 PM

Orion, what does any of that have to do with the question at hand? I know those things are offensive, insensitive, and full of ignorance. Would you or would you not say this joke to a big Mexican stranger? Maybe you see a big Mexican guy looking really angry about something, and you think this joke would cheer him up, would you say it to him?

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
**** the philosophical/anthropological/whatever arguments, i like richierich's the best.

go up to some big mexican stranger and say this joke to their face. let us know what happens. Go to a tough gay club and try some of the Kuo's "You're such a fag" joking there and see what happens.

Go to a Feminist forum and and talk about how much you like so-and-so's breasts, as on the Kuo, and see what happens.

Of the three choices, I think going to the Mexican guy and telling him the joke would be the best bet....since it the only one that is not inherently offensive. If the guy you talked to hapenned to be familiar with the cartoon and lacked a degree in semiotics, he might even find it funny....though probably less so than the "lettuce be friends" classic. [/QUOTE]

And

06-09-2003, 03:21 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
Please do! The irony of you two expounding on the importance of analysis and deconstruction but totally missing the point is too much! [/QB]icon_rofl.gif Except I wouldn't say they miss the point as much as I'd say they ain't practicin' their points. I know I "perceived" BoldSoul's tone in a few posts as condescending.

martin

06-09-2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
yes, it was an inside joke from me to orion in reference to certain things said in another board. You should be careful what you write, unless you don't care that you might offend someone. [/QUOTE]exactly my point

hook... line... sinker.. [/QUOTE]Yes, I am well aware of that. Irony, like humour, doesn't translate well on message boards. Would you agree that you're being hypocritical?

06-09-2003, 03:23 PM

in what way? please don't use the example of my bait to orion.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
We have yet to engage in the HUMANITES aspect.

Humanities are the constructs of human behavior that effect and shape every day life and the evolution of society. JL, RichieRich, myself and others have been asserting the humanities aspect all along.

For those who can't see this, why don't you take a look at the other conflicts in your life and relate them to this arguement. Bold Soul, how would you categorize the joke?

Racist?
Offensive but not racist?
In poor taste?
Dumb
All
Other: ____________ [/QUOTE]I classify the joke as being in poor taste and irresponsible in relation to the poster understanding the environment of the DHP and how the joke could effect that environment.

martin

06-09-2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by JL:
in what way? please don't use the example of my bait to orion. why not?

DOTSmusic

06-09-2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by darrow:
Let's say the result of someone going up to a big mexican stranger and telling this joke is that the joke teller gets punched in the face, that then means what about the joke?

some might find it offensive, some may not.
it's all relative to the individual. you can't speak for an entire race.

i know for myself that i never feel the need to censor what i say just because a few people might get offended. whatever, let em get offended. if there are consequences to pay for my words then so be it.

then again, i'm different as hell.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
Please do! The irony of you two expounding on the importance of analysis and deconstruction but totally missing the point is too much! icon_rofl.gif Except I wouldn't say they miss the point as much as I'd say they ain't practicin' their points. I know I "perceived" BoldSoul's tone in a few posts as condescending. [/QB][/QUOTE]Condescension implies INTENT. I think I have made my intent clear and it is not to condescend.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by JL:
Orion, why is it so hard to understand?

1. Intent - Craig posts this after he posts a rape joke, his insensitivity and ignorance are evident in that.

2. You yourself said the joke wouldn't be funny if you replaced "Mexican" with "Spanish" or "Argentine" or "Spanish speaking person" for that matter. Mexicans are the butt of the joke here, and everyone here got the joke because they are familar with 2 things: 1. The saying "andale! andale!" made popular by the racist cartoon Speedy Gonzales and 2. A Mexican stereotype that they are slow/lazy/whatever that was accutely referred to by said cartoon.

3. Although in certain contexts I may agree with you that this isn't THAT offensive of a joke, given the circumstance that it was made by someone who is also able to find humor in rape, I wouldn't give him the benefit of the doubt here.

4. The same people who may have found Donger's "but have you seen her ass" comment offensive are often the same ones objectifying women, laughing at ethnic humor made about latinos/gays/asians/whites. The end to these sort of cultural problems aren't mitigated by only being aware of slights against minority groups that you are a part of, but rather when you are aware of all of these things and awakened to a painful, insane reality. Once there, you can't help but feel compelled to do something about it. 1. Neither you nor I know the intent of the original poster.

2. Mexicans are NOT the butt of the joke. However, the reference to the country is needed to give the joke context by relating it to Speedy. Only after cutural analysis of this pop culture saying (which has become a cliché used outside of the SG cartoon). Such cutural analysis, when taken to its extreme, can be used to construct anything as offensive.

3. So, the joke would be okay if it were told by somebody else? As I have never seen the "rape joke" and do not know Craig, this part of the context is outside my ability to argue.

4. This makes you a terrible hypocrite, given your participation on the Kuo.

And

06-09-2003, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by JL:
in what way? please don't use the example of my bait to orion. Dude ... I'm reading you as coming off a little hypocritically too JL. Is the difference because it's a different board therefore no cross referencing?

darrow

06-09-2003, 03:30 PM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
**** the philosophical/anthropological/whatever arguments, i like richierich's the best.

go up to some big mexican stranger and say this joke to their face. let us know what happens. Let's say the result of someone going up to a big mexican stranger and telling this joke is that the joke teller gets punched in the face, that then means what about the joke?

I'm asking thinking that your reasoning will become clearer to me. [/QUOTE]would you be willing to say this joke to a big mexican stranger? [/QUOTE]I'm a horrible joke teller and I wouldn't walk up to any stranger and tell a joke. smile.gif

Seriously though, JL. I asked you that question because your scenario implied that the big mexican's reaction would be adverse AND that that adverse reaction would then indicate something about the joke. I'm asking you what that adverse reaction would indicate in the hopes that the logical conclusion of your argument will surface.

I guess my question is similar to the one I asked Bold Soul.

The question would be something like, "Would the adverse reaction indicate that...

- the guy thought the joke was racially insensitive
- he thought it was culturally insensitive (i see this as different than the first...correct me if I'm wrong)
- he just thought the joke was dumb

blah blah blah

[ June 09, 2003, 04:32 PM: Message edited by: darrow ]

06-09-2003, 03:34 PM

So what are we arguing here? It seems that you are able to see how this joke can be seen as offensive based on racial issues, albeit your opinion that the person taking offense would have to be taking things to an extreme. Now you want to point this in light of my banter on the Kuo as some evidence that this joke isn't offensive - your argument being that the person who is trying to convince you that it is offensive has made similar offensive jokes in the past? You have any idea how poor of an argument that is?

If it's my own hypocrisy we're discussing, I'll finish it for you. Sure I have my own prejudices, but at least I know I am being racist/sexist/whatever whenever I say things to be offensive.

darrow

06-09-2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
We have yet to engage in the HUMANITES aspect.

Humanities are the constructs of human behavior that effect and shape every day life and the evolution of society. JL, RichieRich, myself and others have been asserting the humanities aspect all along.

For those who can't see this, why don't you take a look at the other conflicts in your life and relate them to this arguement. Bold Soul, how would you categorize the joke?

Racist?
Offensive but not racist?
In poor taste?
Dumb
All
Other: ____________ [/QUOTE]I classify the joke as being in poor taste and irresponsible in relation to the poster understanding the environment of the DHP and how the joke could effect that environment. [/QUOTE]Thanks, Bold Soul.

Leslie

06-09-2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Condescension implies INTENT. I think I have made my intent clear and it is not to condescend. [/QB]Bold Soul.. please...come on..you are the most condescending person on this page...I mean lets keep it real here.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:36 PM

I think the point here is that it is far too easy to discount another's distaste as being irrational or overly sensitive.

Some of the people who are offering a view contrary to those offended, such as Orion/Konbit, present a contrary view for the sake of being contrary. You assert the offense taken to be illogical unto itself. This is dangerous to a community of human beings.

I ride Orion/Konbit hardest because his M.O., demonstrated across several different threads over time (war, race, etc.) is to offer a contrary point of view simply to go against the the dominant opinion. He isn't interested in offering anyone a point of view - just illuminating what he perceives as flaws in the point of view that forms the dominant opinion on the topic.

This is what makes his comments, and all comments of this type, useless and destructive.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Some people approach situations such as these with no thinking at all. Some with a philosophical point of view, some with an anthropological/cultural point of view and some with a Humanities point of view.

It is possible to employ varying points of view to look at something such as this from several different dimensions.

But then, why would anyone do that? It's only a few mexicans that got offended. They shouldn't be so sensitive. :rolleyes: Thanks for teaching us all that you can analyze issues with more than one perspective! Once again, you've proved your intellectual superiority. Toss in a little bit of academic jargon and a few more McCarthyist accusations about other's intellegence, and you'll prove how right yoou are (though, of course, being right isn't important to you).

Back to the issue!

Where are the Mexicans that got offended that you are refering to? [/QUOTE]Orion/Konbit - you are a walking fallacy of logic. First, you fabricate judgement against my character. McCarthyism? Demagoguery at its best. Anyone who cares to know me knows what my intentions are.

Second, you project your insecurities about intelligence on me. That my confident communication style affects you negatively has less to do with me than you.

Finally, you make some lame call about "where are the mexicans that were offended"? Should I get a list together for you or will common sense suffice?

Your kung-fu is full of holes. [/QUOTE]Bravo! You have out done yourself!

Where is a fallacy of logic? I love how those that agree with you are well-versed in the arts of philosophy, anthropology, etc. Yet, those who disagree with you have an inability to reason. I have put forth numerous logical arguments, as have others that have posted on both sides of this issue.

I really love the insecurities about my intelligence stuff!! You spend an ENTIRE post bringing my intelligence (and those who agree with me) to task....and my defense against the attack and your oft-used form of intellectual criticism is now called "insecurity"?!?!? You are killing me!! Really...you are WAY funnier than the original joke (and more insulting too).

Finally---You asserted that Mexicans were being offended, but offered no proof. The only Mexican...well half-Mexican, Akila, has said that he was not offended. There goes your "common sense."

And

06-09-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
Please do! The irony of you two expounding on the importance of analysis and deconstruction but totally missing the point is too much! icon_rofl.gif Except I wouldn't say they miss the point as much as I'd say they ain't practicin' their points. I know I "perceived" BoldSoul's tone in a few posts as condescending. [/QUOTE]it is not to condescend. [/QB][/QUOTE]Thank you for stating this.

06-09-2003, 03:37 PM

Darrow, it isn't so much if the hypothetical big Mexican dude in question would beat the crap out of you or if he would have a negative reaction at all. It's about you, or anyone else and how they view this joke. If you truly don't see anything wrong with it, you would have no problem going up to some random big Mexican dude and telling them this joke. Although not explicitly stated, I am sensing that you, Orion, and others would have reservations on doing this.

MYOR

06-09-2003, 03:37 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
This entire thread reveals why I have very few friends.

Most people aren't intelligent enough to strive to see things in more ways than just the way that brings them the pleasure of bring "right".

Konbit/Orion, for example, makes the most passionate and strenuous ONE DIMENSIONAL arguements about this sort of thing. It's typical - just because it doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it a lie.

You all could take this as an indication that deeper thinking is required, but the intoxication of being right is far too important to you. In the process, you have offended many who may be of value to you in the future.

People who think such as you cause more problems than they are able to correct. It is those who choose to think in other dimensions than those that are obvious who are left to explain your ****-ups.

Suckas all. This I find highly interesting becuase people don't agree with you think we are all suckas..

So you try to defend your point by insulting everyone elses intellegence... [/QUOTE]Again I ask.. What makes you feel you are smarter than anyone.. and that we all have to bow down and agree with what you say...

Please don't try to make yourself higher by insulting other people!!!

Bold Soul, Since I've asked this question like 3x and you have choose not to answer.. Let me say this.. The only person I see here trying to prove they are right is YOU.. The fact that your choosing to insult someone in order to defend yourself states it all.... No one made you the judge of everyones point of view or morality just apply them to your own life..

[ June 09, 2003, 06:12 PM: Message edited by: MYOR ]

daniel

06-09-2003, 03:37 PM

http://www.dragg.net/users/pennywitt/speedy/speedy6.gif

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:38 PM

Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Condescension implies INTENT. I think I have made my intent clear and it is not to condescend. Bold Soul.. please...come on..you are the most condescending person on this page...I mean lets keep it real here. [/QB][/QUOTE]Condescension implies INTENT. And my "real" ain't your "real".

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Some people approach situations such as these with no thinking at all. Some with a philosophical point of view, some with an anthropological/cultural point of view and some with a Humanities point of view.

It is possible to employ varying points of view to look at something such as this from several different dimensions.

But then, why would anyone do that? It's only a few mexicans that got offended. They shouldn't be so sensitive. :rolleyes: Thanks for teaching us all that you can analyze issues with more than one perspective! Once again, you've proved your intellectual superiority. Toss in a little bit of academic jargon and a few more McCarthyist accusations about other's intellegence, and you'll prove how right yoou are (though, of course, being right isn't important to you).

Back to the issue!

Where are the Mexicans that got offended that you are refering to? [/QUOTE]Orion/Konbit - you are a walking fallacy of logic. First, you fabricate judgement against my character. McCarthyism? Demagoguery at its best. Anyone who cares to know me knows what my intentions are.

Second, you project your insecurities about intelligence on me. That my confident communication style affects you negatively has less to do with me than you.

Finally, you make some lame call about "where are the mexicans that were offended"? Should I get a list together for you or will common sense suffice?

Your kung-fu is full of holes. [/QUOTE]Bravo! You have out done yourself!

Where is a fallacy of logic? I love how those that agree with you are well-versed in the arts of philosophy, anthropology, etc. Yet, those who disagree with you have an inability to reason. I have put forth numerous logical arguments, as have others that have posted on both sides of this issue.

I really love the insecurities about my intelligence stuff!! You spend an ENTIRE post bringing my intelligence (and those who agree with me) to task....and my defense against the attack and your oft-used form of intellectual criticism is now called "insecurity"?!?!? You are killing me!! Really...you are WAY funnier than the original joke (and more insulting too).

Finally---You asserted that Mexicans were being offended, but offered no proof. The only Mexican...well half-Mexican, Akila, has said that he was not offended. There goes your "common sense." [/QUOTE]You see what you want to see.

Tony Cano popped in and out and communicated his distaste. I resisted posting this fact because I didn't want to play into your liberal foolishness.

06-09-2003, 03:40 PM

Finally---You asserted that Mexicans were being offended, but offered no proof. The only Mexican...well half-Mexican, Akila, has said that he was not offended. There goes your "common sense."a very racist statement.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Simple word usage, Orion/Konbit -

Tone is the manner in which rhetoric is delivered, Platonic is an adjective - the descriptor of said rhetoric.

Again, a walking fallacy of logic. You're the type of guy that gets his non-white friends beat up in segregated bars, aren't you? Tone and rhetoric are different.

I believe you have misused the phrase "fallacy of logic" in the quote above. Please substantiate or chage.

Once again, you choose to attack me than discusss the topic in your last line. You got any "Your momma..." jokes lined up for your next post?

Thanks!

Leslie

06-09-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Condescension implies INTENT. I think I have made my intent clear and it is not to condescend. Bold Soul.. please...come on..you are the most condescending person on this page...I mean lets keep it real here. [/QUOTE]Condescension implies INTENT. And my "real" ain't your "real". [/QB][/QUOTE]Really?

Drrtynewyork

06-09-2003, 03:40 PM

SOMEONE CLOSE THIS THREAD ALREADY

And

06-09-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
I think the point here is that it is far too easy to discount another's distaste as being irrational or overly sensitive.

Some of the people who are offering a view contrary to those offended, such as Orion/Konbit, present a contrary view for the sake of being contrary. You assert the offense taken to be illogical unto itself. This is dangerous to a community of human beings.

I ride Orion/Konbit hardest because his M.O., demonstrated across several different threads over time (war, race, etc.) is to offer a contrary point of view simply to go against the the dominant opinion. He isn't interested in offering anyone a point of view - just illuminating what he perceives as flaws in the point of view that forms the dominant opinion on the topic.

This is what makes his comments, and all comments of this type, useless and destructive. Wow! :eek:
What is your intent with this comment? I'm curious. Is the reader to accept this as fact or truth? (from the way you write it that's what I perceive). Do you two know each other?
I'm so puzzled by this thread. graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:41 PM

Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
I think the point here is that it is far too easy to discount another's distaste as being irrational or overly sensitive.

Some of the people who are offering a view contrary to those offended, such as Orion/Konbit, present a contrary view for the sake of being contrary. You assert the offense taken to be illogical unto itself. This is dangerous to a community of human beings.

I ride Orion/Konbit hardest because his M.O., demonstrated across several different threads over time (war, race, etc.) is to offer a contrary point of view simply to go against the the dominant opinion. He isn't interested in offering anyone a point of view - just illuminating what he perceives as flaws in the point of view that forms the dominant opinion on the topic.

This is what makes his comments, and all comments of this type, useless and destructive. Wow! :eek:
What is your intent with this comment? I'm curious. Is the reader to accept this as fact or truth? (from the way you write it that's what I perceive). Do you two know each other?
I'm so puzzled by this thread. graemlins/jpshakehead.gif [/QUOTE]The evidence stands. The defense rests.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Condescension implies INTENT. I think I have made my intent clear and it is not to condescend. Bold Soul.. please...come on..you are the most condescending person on this page...I mean lets keep it real here. [/QUOTE]Condescension implies INTENT. And my "real" ain't your "real". [/QUOTE]Really? [/QB][/QUOTE]For really.

mhd

06-09-2003, 03:44 PM

DHP is not for the meek

And

06-09-2003, 03:44 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
I think the point here is that it is far too easy to discount another's distaste as being irrational or overly sensitive.

Some of the people who are offering a view contrary to those offended, such as Orion/Konbit, present a contrary view for the sake of being contrary. You assert the offense taken to be illogical unto itself. This is dangerous to a community of human beings.

I ride Orion/Konbit hardest because his M.O., demonstrated across several different threads over time (war, race, etc.) is to offer a contrary point of view simply to go against the the dominant opinion. He isn't interested in offering anyone a point of view - just illuminating what he perceives as flaws in the point of view that forms the dominant opinion on the topic.

This is what makes his comments, and all comments of this type, useless and destructive. Wow! :eek:
What is your intent with this comment? I'm curious. Is the reader to accept this as fact or truth? (from the way you write it that's what I perceive). Do you two know each other?
I'm so puzzled by this thread. graemlins/jpshakehead.gif [/QUOTE]The evidence stands. The defense rests. [/QUOTE]Ouch! - Which evidence? - I see no defense - But I do believe rest is a good idea.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:46 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
DHP is not for the meek Nor for the closet racist in a liberal's clothing.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
I think the point here is that it is far too easy to discount another's distaste as being irrational or overly sensitive.

Some of the people who are offering a view contrary to those offended, such as Orion/Konbit, present a contrary view for the sake of being contrary. You assert the offense taken to be illogical unto itself. This is dangerous to a community of human beings.

I ride Orion/Konbit hardest because his M.O., demonstrated across several different threads over time (war, race, etc.) is to offer a contrary point of view simply to go against the the dominant opinion. He isn't interested in offering anyone a point of view - just illuminating what he perceives as flaws in the point of view that forms the dominant opinion on the topic.

This is what makes his comments, and all comments of this type, useless and destructive. Wow! :eek:
What is your intent with this comment? I'm curious. Is the reader to accept this as fact or truth? (from the way you write it that's what I perceive). Do you two know each other?
I'm so puzzled by this thread. graemlins/jpshakehead.gif [/QUOTE]The evidence stands. The defense rests. [/QUOTE]Ouch! - Which evidence? - I see no defense - But I do believe rest is a good idea. [/QUOTE]Touche. That was good.

D J 1 3 8

06-09-2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
[QUOTE]QUOTE]The evidence stands. The defense rests. Indeed. Though I would change that "defense" to "offense". ;)

just another day on the DHP...

Moksha

06-09-2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:

Some of the people who are offering a view contrary to those offended, such as Orion/Konbit, present a contrary view for the sake of being contrary. You assert the offense taken to be illogical unto itself. This is dangerous to a community of human beings.

I ride Orion/Konbit hardest because his M.O., demonstrated across several different threads over time (war, race, etc.) is to offer a contrary point of view simply to go against the the dominant opinion. He isn't interested in offering anyone a point of view - just illuminating what he perceives as flaws in the point of view that forms the dominant opinion on the topic.

This is what makes his comments, and all comments of this type, useless and destructive. Basically, "illogical" means those that disagree with you. So...I was against the war because I like being "contrary"? And I'm even dangerous to humanity now?!?! Unbelievable! I think that you will often find (as on this thread and war) that I do not go against the "dominant opinion" here. So there goes your analysis of my "M.O."

I also like how my opinion=illuminating flaws.
And yours=offering a point of view.

Especially considering the abundance of "flaws" (or 'fallacies of logic' as you like to say) that you yourself have pointed out on this thread.

I now have to go interview an up-and-coming artist.

But I'll have more destructive views to come. Watch out humanity!!

P.S. I quite like the Bold Soul record label. Is that where you're name is from? Were you involved with them?

DOTSmusic

06-09-2003, 03:49 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
DHP is not for the meek Nor for the closet racist in a liberal's clothing. [/QUOTE]one thing is for certain.
argumentive and hypersensitive individuals are more than welcome.

gawd, i love this forum.

Gman, you the man.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:

QUOTE]The evidence stands. The defense rests. Indeed. Though I would change that "defense" to "offense". ;)

just another day on the DHP... Give 'em an inch, they take a mile.

Moksha

06-09-2003, 03:53 PM

What is underlay? I thought you put padding under a carpet.

mhd

06-09-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
DHP is not for the meek Nor for the closet racist in a liberal's clothing. [/QUOTE]sorry i missed the fun, this page will challenge you in so many ways. i hope this one goes in the best thread category, but something tells me that some folks still got some ammo

Moksha

06-09-2003, 03:54 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
DHP is not for the meek Nor for the closet racist in a liberal's clothing. [/QUOTE]You got any more platonic insults you'd like to hurl my way?

"Closet racist"... hahahahah ahahahahahah ahaha.

See ya tomorrow.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
DHP is not for the meek Nor for the closet racist in a liberal's clothing. [/QUOTE]You got any more platonic insults you'd like to hurl my way?

"Closet racist"... hahahahah ahahahahahah ahaha.

See ya tomorrow. [/QUOTE]Some of us have eyes and aren't afraid of what we see.

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 03:56 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
DHP is not for the meek Nor for the closet racist in a liberal's clothing. [/QUOTE]sorry i missed the fun, this page will challenge you in so many ways. i hope this one goes in the best thread category, but something tells me that some folks still got some ammo [/QUOTE]The value of the DHP is like having human society in a fishbowl. A true microcosm.

mhd

06-09-2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
DHP is not for the meek Nor for the closet racist in a liberal's clothing. [/QUOTE]sorry i missed the fun, this page will challenge you in so many ways. i hope this one goes in the best thread category, but something tells me that some folks still got some ammo [/QUOTE]The value of the DHP is like having human society in a fishbowl. A true microcosm. [/QUOTE]the beauty of this page is that, for the most part, people tend to reveal their true selves, unlike real life.... and... people are not afraid of conflict, again, for the most part

martin

06-09-2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
What is underlay? I thought you put padding under a carpet. That's it. For this reason I'm still confused as to how this lame play on words can be offensive despite having read 7 pages of this. Does this make me a closet racist?

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 04:01 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
DHP is not for the meek Nor for the closet racist in a liberal's clothing. [/QUOTE]sorry i missed the fun, this page will challenge you in so many ways. i hope this one goes in the best thread category, but something tells me that some folks still got some ammo [/QUOTE]The value of the DHP is like having human society in a fishbowl. A true microcosm. [/QUOTE]the beauty of this page is that, for the most part, people tend to reveal their true selves, unlike real life.... and... people are not afraid of conflict, again, for the most part [/QUOTE]Indeed. Make a GENERAL statement and many defend themselves SPECIFICALLY.

Malcom X said it best - throw a rock into a pack of dogs. The one that barks is the one that got hit.

Leslie

06-09-2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
What is underlay? I thought you put padding under a carpet. That's it. For this reason I'm still confused as to how this lame play on words can be offensive despite having read 7 pages of this. Does this make me a closet racist? [/QUOTE]Ask Bold Soul he's the authority on that particular malfunction - although once he gets finished with Orion, he may hurl his wrath upon you so on second thought sit tight and he'll get around to you and let you know...

Bold Soul

06-09-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
What is underlay? I thought you put padding under a carpet. That's it. For this reason I'm still confused as to how this lame play on words can be offensive despite having read 7 pages of this. Does this make me a closet racist? [/QUOTE]Ask Bold Soul he's the authority on that particular malfunction - although once he gets finished with Orion, he may hurl his wrath upon you so on second thought sit tight and he'll get around to you and let you know... [/QUOTE]Bold Soul's occasional presence = Rorschack Test.

And

06-09-2003, 04:15 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
What is underlay? I thought you put padding under a carpet. That's it. For this reason I'm still confused as to how this lame play on words can be offensive despite having read 7 pages of this. Does this make me a closet racist? [/QUOTE]Ask Bold Soul he's the authority on that particular malfunction - although once he gets finished with Orion, he may hurl his wrath upon you so on second thought sit tight and he'll get around to you and let you know... [/QUOTE]Bold Soul's occasional presence = Rorschack Test. [/QUOTE]icon_rofl.gif
Holy perspectives!

martin

06-09-2003, 04:16 PM

06-09-2003, 04:19 PM

It's apparent to me that this board has (and always will have) a few narrow-minded people on here that are insensitive to the feelings and opinions expressed by other members. On the other hand, I'm happy to see that there are others on this board that are more tactful and benevolent towards other members regardless of race, sex, religion etc. I applaud the latter of the two.

darrow

06-09-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by JL:
Darrow, it isn't so much if the hypothetical big Mexican dude in question would beat the crap out of you or if he would have a negative reaction at all. It's about you, or anyone else and how they view this joke. If you truly don't see anything wrong with it, you would have no problem going up to some random big Mexican dude and telling them this joke. Although not explicitly stated, I am sensing that you, Orion, and others would have reservations on doing this. ah...I misunderstood your intent with that scenario then. I wonder though...my reluctance to tell the joke could be because I'm not sure how the joke would be taken by the receiver..not that I find the joke offensive, correct?

D J 1 3 8

06-09-2003, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by Albert D.:
It's apparent to me that this board has (and always will have) a few narrow-minded people on here that are insensitive to the feelings and opinions expressed by other members. On the other hand, I'm happy to see that there are others on this board that are more tactful and benevolent towards other members regardless of race, sex, religion etc. I applaud the latter of the two. While there are some jerks on every board, I will say that holding an opinion that is contrary to what may be the majority opinion on DHP does not make you insensitive or malevolent or contrary. I think both sides put forth reasonable arguments regarding this very un-funny joke.

daniel

06-09-2003, 04:53 PM

Moksha

06-09-2003, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:

I ride Orion/Konbit hardest because his M.O., demonstrated across several different threads over time (war, race, etc.) is to offer a contrary point of view simply to go against the the dominant opinion. Before you consider "riding" me (specifically) in the future, please take the guidelines of this board into consideration:

3.) Keep your personal beefs off the board.

I really think that you should hold our gracious host, GMAN's rules in higher regard. I have noticed your tendency to single me out (there are numerous others who hold my "contrary" positions on this, the war, etc. who you do not attact with such regularity and personal beef). I believe this truly goes against the spirit of rule #3. These multiple pages of your character attacks against me really do nothing to better the conversation of this board.

So, before submitting me to your next "Rorschack" test...please make sure you are arguing the point, not continuing your beef.

Until then, I have a joke (which hopefully none of those of pirate herritage find offensive):

Q. How much does it cost for a pirate to get his ears pierced?

Two Buccaneer!

Barrie Moodswing

06-09-2003, 11:40 PM

This has been blown way out of proportion, 8 pages wasted on the message board for what seems like a pretty harmless joke to me. Obviously it has offened some people, it just seems that evrything on this board just now has got to turn into some sort of race war.

Lots of people post jokes on here some sexist, some racist, some rubbish, but the bottom line is that everyone is just trying to bring a little smile to all our DHP peeps faces, I don't think anyone sets out on this board to anger anyone, maybe if joke does offend you, then ask one of the Admins to remove it!

Shalewa

06-10-2003, 05:51 AM

Wow...

I looked in on this thread early yesterday and never imagined that the vehement defense of poor taste and insensitivity would carry it this far. Some folks are so determined to downplay the racist impact of the joke that they miss the fact that the subtle reenforcement of stereotypes in jokes is particularly insidious because it both sensitizes the targeted group to even the pettiest of slights and it desensitizes others who refuse to appreciate the cumulative weight of an hour, a week or a lifetime's worth of petty (and more substantial) slights.

Koffy Brown

06-10-2003, 06:22 AM

Some of us have eyes and aren't afraid of what we see.

If this isn't me....

imported_Gman

06-10-2003, 06:51 AM

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:

I ride Orion/Konbit hardest because his M.O., demonstrated across several different threads over time (war, race, etc.) is to offer a contrary point of view simply to go against the the dominant opinion. Before you consider "riding" me (specifically) in the future, please take the guidelines of this board into consideration:

3.) Keep your personal beefs off the board.

I really think that you should hold our gracious host, GMAN's rules in higher regard. I have noticed your tendency to single me out (there are numerous others who hold my "contrary" positions on this, the war, etc. who you do not attact with such regularity and personal beef). I believe this truly goes against the spirit of rule #3. These multiple pages of your character attacks against me really do nothing to better the conversation of this board.

So, before submitting me to your next "Rorschack" test...please make sure you are arguing the point, not continuing your beef.

Until then, I have a joke (which hopefully none of those of pirate herritage find offensive):

Q. How much does it cost for a pirate to get his ears pierced?

Two Buccaneer! [/QUOTE]I must agree on any personal attacks made in this thread, i.e. name calling, insults to intelligence etc.(I have not read the whole thread). Folks please continue the dialog without resorting to this.

However singling someone out to engage them in debate because of their viewpoints without resorting to the above is fine.

[ June 10, 2003, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: Gman ]

Djay Raare

06-10-2003, 07:13 AM

Underley WHAT! que lo que pasa qui ah! mad1.gif Yo have graemlins/respekt.gif para toda mi Raza aaiight peace...

Djay Raare

06-10-2003, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Alfonso aka DjRaare:
Underley WHAT! que lo que pasa qui ah! mad1.gif Yo have graemlins/respekt.gif para toda mi Raza aaiight peace... but thats a good one icon_rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif

06-10-2003, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by darrow:
ah...I misunderstood your intent with that scenario then. I wonder though...my reluctance to tell the joke could be because I'm not sure how the joke would be taken by the receiver..not that I find the joke offensive, correct? Possibly yes, but doesn't that substantiate the notion that somewhere in your conciousness, you think the joke may be offensive although you may not understand exactly why?

darrow

06-10-2003, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darrow:
ah...I misunderstood your intent with that scenario then. I wonder though...my reluctance to tell the joke could be because I'm not sure how the joke would be taken by the receiver..not that I find the joke offensive, correct? Possibly yes, but doesn't that substantiate the notion that somewhere in your conciousness, you think the joke may be offensive although you may not understand exactly why? [/QUOTE]Yep, I agree. I think the reason for reluctance could either be what you stated or I stated.

06-10-2003, 07:55 AM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Finally---You asserted that Mexicans were being offended, but offered no proof. The only Mexican...well half-Mexican, Akila, has said that he was not offended. There goes your "common sense."a very racist statement. [/QUOTE]just wanted to highlight this again. your proof that this isn't offensive to Mexicans in general relies on the opinion of 1 individual person, as if this one person was representative of all Mexicans in their myriad of personalities, experiences, and individuality.

danny webb

06-10-2003, 08:22 AM

just two very quick points, which i feel are worth mentioning with regards the 'joke'

1. Underlay - it seems (to me after all this), is a distinctively British term for the 'padding' that goes under a carpet.

2. Craig is Scottish, so as far as the Mexican language haters in the US are concerned, this was probably the last thing on Craigs mind, not to discount it happens, he probably isn't aware.

3. I will go out on a limb, and say that this was directly/indirectly pertaining to the cartoon mouse, there isn't a big Mexican immigrant population in Scotland. To my knowledge anyroad.

carry on.

danny webb

06-10-2003, 08:23 AM

sorry three :rolleyes:

Moksha

06-10-2003, 08:29 AM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Finally---You asserted that Mexicans were being offended, but offered no proof. The only Mexican...well half-Mexican, Akila, has said that he was not offended. There goes your "common sense."a very racist statement. [/QUOTE]just wanted to highlight this again. your proof that this isn't offensive to Mexicans in general relies on the opinion of 1 individual person, as if this one person was representative of all Mexicans in their myriad of personalities, experiences, and individuality. [/QUOTE]C'mon JL...I wasn't offering any "proof." However, Bold Soul made a claim that Mexicans were being offended. The only person that described themselves as Mexican on this thread said that he was not offended. Does he represent all Mexican, of course not! I was just pointing out that his assertion of offense was unsubstantiated...that his line of argument was based on speculation.

Furthermore, if this joke is offensive, (and apparently you need multiple college degrees to deipher why it is), then I truly hope that none of you are exposed to the comic stylings of Red Foxx, Lenny Bruce, Richard Pryor, George Carlin, Eddie Murphy, Dave Chapelle, or any other comedian from the last 100 years. They're cultural insensitivities make "underlay" look like a playground joke (which it is). A single routine from any of the aforementioned should span hundreds of pages of criticism, using the line of thought you have displayed. It's a shame though, as these comedians can be quite funny at times.

Finally, a reminder on the definition of racist, as that term has been so freely used here:

racist

adj 1: based on racial intolerance 2: discriminatory especially on the basis of race or religion [syn: antiblack, anti-Semitic, anti-Semite(a)] n : a person with a prejudiced belief that one race is superior to others [syn: racialist]

Never in my life, words, thoughts, beliefs or deeds have I supported racism. I am tollerant of all peoples. I have never discriminated based on race. I don't believe that any races are better or worse than any others. (There are others on this thread who have proved themselves to fit the definition MUCH better than me). I have loved ones of numerous ethnicities, and I strongly believe in solving racial injustices. And I believe that there is a lot of language (words, jokes, etc.) that are terribly insensitive and should not be used.

However, I also believe that there is a danger in trying to racialize everything. There is a danger in trying to find injustices where there are none....as this takes away from the more important issues.

o

06-10-2003, 08:31 AM

you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that.

MYOR

06-10-2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. You and Bold Soul, need to GIVE IT UP! People don't agree with you.. ACCEPT that and MOVE ON!!

mhd

06-10-2003, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. You and Bold Soul, need to GIVE IT UP! People don't agree with you.. ACCEPT that and MOVE ON!! [/QUOTE]wrong

DeesKo

06-10-2003, 08:45 AM

Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. What is your ultimate point in all of your arguments regarding offensive T-shirts, offensive jokes, offensive speech, racist comments etc JL ?

That the comments themselves, regardless of the situation, indicate something fundamentally negative within the person making them and that people should refrain from them regardless of the situation because as long as even one person is offended, its fundamentally wrong ?

Peace

Rob

[ June 10, 2003, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: DeesKo ]

06-10-2003, 08:46 AM

People everywhere go out there trying to change the world, in this case on racial issues. Rarely do they realize that the most significant change they can make in the world is in themselves.

MYOR

06-10-2003, 08:47 AM

Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. You and Bold Soul, need to GIVE IT UP! People don't agree with you.. ACCEPT that and MOVE ON!! [/QUOTE]wrong [/QUOTE]Actually Right... The minute Bold Soul decided to insult people intellegnce, he lost all credibility.. You may have a million college degrees and if your resolve to insults this makes you loose any credibility..

and to quote Mr Bold Soul himself "And my "real" ain't your "real"...

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

06-10-2003, 08:48 AM

Originally posted by Barrie' Moodswing' McFarlane:
This has been blown way out of proportion, 8 pages wasted on the message board for what seems like a pretty harmless joke to me. Obviously it has offened some people, it just seems that evrything on this board just now has got to turn into some sort of race war.

Lots of people post jokes on here some sexist, some racist, some rubbish, but the bottom line is that everyone is just trying to bring a little smile to all our DHP peeps faces, I don't think anyone sets out on this board to anger anyone, maybe if joke does offend you, then ask one of the Admins to remove it! Finally, after 8 pages of utterance and murmuring, I've came across a voice of reason. We need to spend more time developing our own selves and less time trying to scold and change others. The jokes was tasteless but I did not respond with a reply of how I didn't like it. I just overlooked the post and kept reading other interesting things. But to get up this morning and see 8 pages of this. Come on now people let's move on, it ain't that serious.

Ignore what you don't like. Racism is prevelant but you cannot change it from your computer!Writing or typing thoughts will not harm anyone. There are several websites that harbor racists and their comments. Guess what? some of us know how to not go there and let them be. Ignorance is bliss! THIS IS A MESSAGE BOARD.

CRAIG HONEY, DON'T GO ANYWHERE, WE ALL HAVE A TIME OF BAD JUDGEMENT, I DON'T DISLIKE YOU, YOUR JOKES ARE QUESTIONABLE AND YOU NEED TO STOP SHARING JOKES FROM THAT FRIEND YOU ARE HANGING WITH ;) IF YOU NEED TO TELL SOME JOKES ASK JMJ HE WRITE JOKEBOOKS graemlins/tongueout.gif

Oak Pk, IL's Best Bedroom DJ, serge

06-10-2003, 08:49 AM

I'm Mexican. And as a representative for the rest of my culture, I declare that this joke is a dud and very thinly veiled mockery of the accent many of us get when are in the process of trying to speak English.

I'm a human being. As a representative of the human race, I declare that I will refuse and resist any symbols, jokes and ignorant perceptions that reduce and misrepresent the complex experiences and striving for the same goals all other human beings desire: love, belonging and understanding.

martin

06-10-2003, 08:49 AM

Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. So are we all racist?

Martin Red

06-10-2003, 08:49 AM

This probably will get missed as I skipped through a lot of pages myself.

the underlay joke dates back to the 1970's, about the same time as this joke: -
Knock Knock
Who's their ?
Doctor
Dr. Who

We don't really have a big Mexican presence in the U.K, not saying that makes the joke any less offensive to anyone on the www.

But the British do have a plethora of racist jokes, usually aimed at the Irish though. We do have a large Irish community here and to this day people tell these jokes. (if most of these jokes where about martians they still wouldn't be funny)

They usually start

The English man
The Scotts man
and Irish man

The butt of the joke is initially always aimed at the Irishman, making them seem stupid, hello !! ever heard of... Shaw, Yeats, Joyce.

Moksha

06-10-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. Based on the definition above...no, I am not a racist. I generally like regional food cooked by people from that region....though that is not really discriminatory on race. I usually go out to clubs that are primarily black and Hispanic...but those choices are not based on race. I am pretty well-traveled, I come from an ethnicly diverse family (with black, white and Asian relatives)....and have lots of love for everyone, and nothing that compares to the claims of superiority/inferiority that you often employ. I cannot think of one example of how I might fit the definition above. Sorry if you think that is bullshit.

But really....this thread should not be about me defending myself against this constant barage of attacks. It should be ONLY about the topic at hand, which was the original joke and its various meanings, interpretations, etc. and how they correspond to society as a whole. I refuse to keep fielding these personal criticisms.

On its own....the joke seems inoffensive to me. If you want to go down the Speedy Gonzales route, then yes, you can construct it as being offensive. You could also go down that route and say that it is inoffensive based on the mouse's battle cry being a widely known cultural artifact divorced from its origin. Either way, the joke does not INHERENTLY demean, belittle, insult people from Mexico.

When put into a broader cultural context and compared to the body of comedy and humor that is out there, the joke (even in its most offesive interpretation) is comparitively benign. Even in this social microcosm (where some of the comics I listed before have been praised), it is comparitively harmless.

06-10-2003, 08:52 AM

Rob, not at all. I find alot of ethnic and sexist humor to be a riot. I got a great ab workout when I went to see David Alan Grier at the Improv or when I first heard Chris Rock's live HBO show on cd. I take issue when someone doesn't realize the offensive nature of these things, or even worse, when they can't see it at all.

danny webb

06-10-2003, 08:52 AM

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

06-10-2003, 09:01 AM

Why is it I didn't get this much attention when I told my Irish joke? Isn't that the same thing except my joke was actually funny. It was more of the context instead of the racist intent.

Dang I can't get attention like some people around here. graemlins/conf44.gif

06-10-2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. So are we all racist? [/QUOTE]Yes! Finally some progress. Racism is more than having outward and obvious hatred of a person based on color, ethnicity, whatever. Alot of it is very subtle, as is in this particular case. Do you know how I know I am a racist? I can understand the humor in this joke. I am also aware of my own conditioning that has allowed me to find the humor in this joke and all other ethnic humor. While that duality has caused me much anxiety, ultimately it has awoken me to my own prejudices and forced me to deal with them. That is progress.

DeesKo

06-10-2003, 09:01 AM

Originally posted by JL:
Rob, not at all. I find alot of ethnic and sexist humor to be a riot. I got a great ab workout when I went to see David Alan Grier at the Improv or when I first heard Chris Rock's live HBO show on cd. I take issue when someone doesn't realize the offensive nature of these things, or even worse, when they can't see it at all. So as long as you know you're being offensive and racist, it's OK ?

As long as there's a disclaimer (either spoken or just understood) before the racist or offensive comment it's ok ?

You take 8 pages worth of issue with someone who makes a comment with no ill will in their heart that truly seems completely benign to them, but when someone else deconstructs it, takes it out of the speakers context and twists it around through their own filters it becomes offensive or racist but yet you're entertained by someone or an entire group of someones who are bltantly offensive, or by someone telling a joke like "you're mommas so black..." or "you know the difference between black people and white people?"

OK.

06-10-2003, 09:05 AM

Did I say it's okay? Did you laugh when you heard Chris Rock or Richard Pryor? That's not the point. The point is admitting that it is, and to understand the harm of it. Please don't sit there and tell me that you don't make entertain ethnic humor because you and I have sat around drinking beers doing it. We're also familiar enough with each other to understand intent. Does Craig Hughes understand the potential offense that this joke can garner? I don't know, but the track record indicates that he doesn't, and Orion has repeatedly downplayed racial issues in many threads.

DeesKo

06-10-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by JL:
Racism is more than having outward and obvious hatred of a person based on color, ethnicity, whatever. Alot of it is very subtle, as is in this particular case. Do you know how I know I am a racist? I can understand the humor in this joke. I am also aware of my own conditioning that has allowed me to find the humor in this joke and all other ethnic humor. While that duality has caused me much anxiety, ultimately it has awoken me to my own prejudices and forced me to deal with them. That is progress. ...but yet you admittedly entertain yourself on a daily basis with offensive and/or racist humor which really only feeds into your conditioning and furthering the reinforcement of your racist and/or offensive thinking so what progress are you really making ?

06-10-2003, 09:07 AM

Does it? Or perhaps it makes me more accutely aware it. Do you even read kuo?

MYOR

06-10-2003, 09:07 AM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by martin s:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. So are we all racist? [/QUOTE]Yes! Finally some progress. Racism is more than having outward and obvious hatred of a person based on color, ethnicity, whatever. Alot of it is very subtle, as is in this particular case. Do you know how I know I am a racist? I can understand the humor in this joke. I am also aware of my own conditioning that has allowed me to find the humor in this joke and all other ethnic humor. While that duality has caused me much anxiety, ultimately it has awoken me to my own prejudices and forced me to deal with them. That is progress. [/QUOTE]You sound like a religious fanatic... You know the ones that feel that if you don't think like them, your going to hell...

Your being a politicaly correct fanatic... and anyone that becomes a fanatic loose perspective...

danny webb

06-10-2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by JL:
Does it? Or perhaps it makes me more accutely aware it. Do you even read kuo? I read the kuo, and find it insanely funny, but it is viewed by the public, therefore there is absolutely no doubt you offended someone with what is written there, knowingly or unknowingly, as in Craigs case.

DeesKo

06-10-2003, 09:19 AM

Originally posted by JL:
Did I say it's okay? Did you laugh when you heard Chris Rock or Richard Pryor?

Sure, because unlike this joke, they are funny but other than a quality issue, what makes Craig Hughes' joke any different than Chris Rock's ? Because he said it on a message board of 3000 people instead of on cable in front of millions?

Does Craig Hughes understand the potential offense that this joke can garner? I don't know, but the track record indicates that he doesn't

Maybe he does, and maybe he MEANT it to be offensive and racist just like Chris Rock or David Allen Grier or Status Kuo etc etc. Would that make it better ? After all, you don't have an issue with any of them, in fact you support them wholeheartedly, so if you found out Craig Hughes MEANT it to be offensive and racist, would you pay to see him perform at the Improv next week ?

Peace

[ June 10, 2003, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: DeesKo ]

06-10-2003, 09:22 AM

Let's determine if he finds the joke offensive or not first. Alot of other people here don't seem to find the harm in it at all. Are you okay with that?

Bold Soul

06-10-2003, 09:24 AM

Originally posted by Gman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:

I ride Orion/Konbit hardest because his M.O., demonstrated across several different threads over time (war, race, etc.) is to offer a contrary point of view simply to go against the the dominant opinion. Before you consider "riding" me (specifically) in the future, please take the guidelines of this board into consideration:

3.) Keep your personal beefs off the board.

I really think that you should hold our gracious host, GMAN's rules in higher regard. I have noticed your tendency to single me out (there are numerous others who hold my "contrary" positions on this, the war, etc. who you do not attact with such regularity and personal beef). I believe this truly goes against the spirit of rule #3. These multiple pages of your character attacks against me really do nothing to better the conversation of this board.

So, before submitting me to your next "Rorschack" test...please make sure you are arguing the point, not continuing your beef.

Until then, I have a joke (which hopefully none of those of pirate herritage find offensive):

Q. How much does it cost for a pirate to get his ears pierced?

Two Buccaneer! [/QUOTE]I must agree on any personal attacks made in this thread, i.e. name calling, insults to intelligence etc.(I have not read the whole thread). Folks please continue the dialog without resorting to this.

However singling someone out to engage them in debate because of their viewpoints without resorting to the above is fine. [/QUOTE]You muthafukin' right it is! ;)

martin

06-10-2003, 09:25 AM

JL

So it's not ok to to make a joke that may offend and not be aware of the harm done, but it is ok to be offensive and not care about it causing harm so long as you're aware that you're being offensive? That is how I'm reading your justification of the humour on the Kuo compared to the play on words in mexican/underlay joke.

Bold Soul

06-10-2003, 09:29 AM

Tony Cano, I'm assuming is Mexican through previous conversations, expressed offense. Albert Diaz, Mexican, expressed offense. Page one and page eight.

Other people who do not tolerate racist sentiment expressed offense - whether or not they're Mexican, I am not certain of all.

You managed to dig up a person of Mexican descent who is not offended and it nullifies the offense of others?

You want to count heads to determine whether the issue is valid or not?

I bet you had a few black friends growing up. Dated an asian girl in college.

http://www.blackpeopleloveus.com
http://www.rentanegro.com

danny webb

06-10-2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by martin s:
JL

So it's not ok to to make a joke that may offend and not be aware of the harm done, but it is ok to be offensive and not care about it causing harm so long as you're aware that you're being offensive? That is how I'm reading your justification of the humour on the Kuo compared to the play on words in mexican/underlay joke. that's right you racist, btw i knbew the racist slur may offend you, do you get it?

DeesKo

06-10-2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by JL:
Let's determine if he finds the joke offensive or not first. Why ?

Because if he didn't have any intent on being a racist offensive asshole he's wrong and should be derided, bashed, beaten about the neck and head area and wear a scarlet R on his chest but if he DID mean it to be offensive and racist he's just a funny dude ?

Yeah.... I can't subscribe to that method of thinking and find it wildy hypocritical. There's a musing of some sort sitting on the tip of my tongue, something related to needles and haystacks or trees and forests but I can't put it too words so I bow out now.

Peace

06-10-2003, 09:32 AM

Martin, almost right. If you know something is offensive, are you going to say it to someone who may take offense? It takes the ignorance out of it.

06-10-2003, 09:36 AM

What's the discussion now? Do you find the offense in this joke or not? First people ride on me and bold soul cause they didn't see the offense in the joke. Now that the offense has been established, they want to ride me (cause they lost that argument) for something I openly and repeatedly have admitted to - being a racist myself and bold soul for the way he writes and argues. This is absurd.

About 5 pages ago I admitted my own racial biases and welcome anyone to call me on that. Why can't others look at themselves and see the same thing? Racism, although institutional, is in everyone one of us. Let's deal with it.

[ June 10, 2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: JL ]

danny webb

06-10-2003, 09:37 AM

Originally posted by DeesKo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
Let's determine if he finds the joke offensive or not first. Why ?

Because if he didn't have any intent on being a racist offensive asshole he's wrong and should be derided, bashed, beaten about the neck and head area and wear a scarlet R on his chest but if he DID mean it to be offensive and racist he's just a funny dude ?

Yeah.... I can't subscribe to that method of thinking and find it wildy hypocritical. There's a musing of some sort sitting on the tip of my tongue, something related to needles and haystacks or trees and forests but I can't put it too words so I bow out now.

Peace [/QUOTE]trees, forest & 'bough' out, nice punnery!

I'm sure the Ents in Middle Earth will bring you to book!

MYOR

06-10-2003, 09:41 AM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Why is it I didn't get this much attention when I told my Irish joke? Isn't that the same thing except my joke was actually funny. It was more of the context instead of the racist intent.

Dang I can't get attention like some people around here. graemlins/conf44.gif Honestly, its becuase you are black... it seems to be ok if you latin, black or asian,, etc... to do jokes like this .. there should have been an warning stating **WHITE PEOPLE REFRAIN FROM POSTING ANY JOKES** graemlins/stupid.gif

06-10-2003, 09:42 AM

Bold Soul

06-10-2003, 09:43 AM

...

[ June 10, 2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

Bold Soul

06-10-2003, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by JL:
What's the discussion now? Do you find the offense in this joke or not? First people ride on me and bold soul cause they didn't see the offense in the joke. Now that the offense has been established, they want to ride me (cause they lost that argument) for something I openly and repeatedly have admitted to - being a racist myself and bold soul for the way he writes and argues. This is absurd.

About 5 pages ago I admitted my own racial biases and welcome anyone to call me on that. Why can't others look at themselves and see the same thing? Racism, although institutional, is in everyone one of us. Let's deal with it. Wow. There it is, isn't it.

Some people can't take the heat of debate and have to attack. It's cool. If we can't challenge their logic, make them out to be insane, delusional or mean/bad people.

He hurt me with his rhetoric, mama! graemlins/mecry.gif None of my fallacies stopped him from asserting his viewpoint. graemlins/mecry.gif

Just do me a favor - please post your pictures so that I know to avoid your asses if I ever see you on the street. Your faces have been revealed anyhow, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Check that haystack once in a while. You might find more than one needle.

MYOR

06-10-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by Albert D.:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. You and Bold Soul, need to GIVE IT UP! People don't agree with you.. ACCEPT that and MOVE ON!! [/QUOTE]I agree with them, so once again, you're wrong. please continue.

p [/QUOTE]And that very good for you... Pero yo no... You want to give your OPIONION its fine don't try to force YOUR way of thinking down my throat...

Bold Soul

06-10-2003, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Albert D.:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. You and Bold Soul, need to GIVE IT UP! People don't agree with you.. ACCEPT that and MOVE ON!! [/QUOTE]I agree with them, so once again, you're wrong. please continue.

p [/QUOTE]And that very good for you... Pero yo no... You want to give your OPIONION its fine don't try to force YOUR way of thinking down my throat... [/QUOTE]I've been ignoring you all conversation. I forgot you had an issue - don't accuse me of shit.

You stand in the room and don't like what you hear, leave or deal with the fact that I got you going. That's called free-association. That shows POTENTIAL.

Frustrating when your conditioning erodes, isn't it?

MYOR

06-10-2003, 09:48 AM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
What's the discussion now? Do you find the offense in this joke or not? First people ride on me and bold soul cause they didn't see the offense in the joke. Now that the offense has been established, they want to ride me (cause they lost that argument) for something I openly and repeatedly have admitted to - being a racist myself and bold soul for the way he writes and argues. This is absurd.

About 5 pages ago I admitted my own racial biases and welcome anyone to call me on that. Why can't others look at themselves and see the same thing? Racism, although institutional, is in everyone one of us. Let's deal with it. Wow. There it is, isn't it.

Some people can't take the heat of debate and have to attack. It's cool. If we can't challenge their logic, make them out to be insane, delusional or mean/bad people.

He hurt me with his rhetoric, mama! graemlins/mecry.gif None of my fallacies stopped him from asserting his viewpoint. graemlins/mecry.gif

Just do me a favor - please post your pictures so that I know to avoid your asses if I ever see you on the street. Your faces have been revealed anyhow, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Check that haystack once in a while. You might find more than one needle. [/QUOTE]And you do the same... I don't need anyone trying to think for me... I can do that on my own... Thank you very much...

imported_Gman

06-10-2003, 09:49 AM

06-10-2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Albert D.:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. You and Bold Soul, need to GIVE IT UP! People don't agree with you.. ACCEPT that and MOVE ON!! [/QUOTE]I agree with them, so once again, you're wrong. please continue.

p [/QUOTE]And that very good for you... Pero yo no... You want to give your OPIONION its fine don't try to force YOUR way of thinking down my throat... [/QUOTE]I'm not and please don't try to force yours down mine cause I ain't havin' it.

peace

MYOR

06-10-2003, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Albert D.:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
you're not a racist then? you're free of any and all prejudice based on ethnicity?

that's a load of shit, cause no one, i repeat no one is free from that. You and Bold Soul, need to GIVE IT UP! People don't agree with you.. ACCEPT that and MOVE ON!! [/QUOTE]I agree with them, so once again, you're wrong. please continue.

p [/QUOTE]And that very good for you... Pero yo no... You want to give your OPIONION its fine don't try to force YOUR way of thinking down my throat... [/QUOTE]I've been ignoring you all conversation. I forgot you had an issue - don't accuse me of shit.

You stand in the room and don't like what you hear, leave or deal with the fact that I got you going. That's called free-association. That shows POTENTIAL.

Frustrating when your conditioning erodes, isn't it? [/QUOTE]The only thing that Got me going is how YOU FEEL your above every one else... And Can't be wrong... I DON'T THINK SO!!

martin

06-10-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by JL:
Martin, almost right. If you know something is offensive, are you going to say it to someone who may take offense? It takes the ignorance out of it. Personally I would rather not say something that might offend someone - but I'm also not known to be the sort of person that won't say what he thinks out of fear of offending someone. BUT there are compatriots of yours on the Kuo who have made offensive comments to me in the knowledge that they were being offensive - one of the reasons I don't post on the Kuo [the other being that I am banned].

if he didn't have any intent on being a racist offensive asshole he's wrong and should be derided, bashed, beaten about the neck and head area and wear a scarlet R on his chest but if he DID mean it to be offensive and racist he's just a funny dude ?

Yeah.... I can't subscribe to that method of thinking and find it wildy hypocritical.I totally agree.

Back to the joke - I still fail to see how this joke can be taken as offensive. Maybe it's due to my social conditioning - maybe it's due to the fact that in the UK we have a more racially tolerant society and a different sense of humour.

But, as I have already asked without getting a proper response, does this make me a racist? Oh I just remembered we're all racist - so I've answered my own question. I hope that I haven't offended anyone by stating my opinions, but that ain't going to stop me from saying what I think - or does that make it ok?

Confused? You will be after the next episode of DHP .... (I do love it all the same)

After nearly 10 pages of this I think I'm going to have to do some work.

Red D

06-10-2003, 09:52 AM

Didn't read all the posts...but maybe this is just a lame joke and nothing more?

Nevertheless I am glad I don't live in a 100% politically correct world some of us clearly desire, cause that's just boring.

90% of the jokes make a mockery of someone or something, don't go analyzing it to death, just find a joke that mocks the other party, can't be that hard...

RD

Bold Soul

06-10-2003, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
What's the discussion now? Do you find the offense in this joke or not? First people ride on me and bold soul cause they didn't see the offense in the joke. Now that the offense has been established, they want to ride me (cause they lost that argument) for something I openly and repeatedly have admitted to - being a racist myself and bold soul for the way he writes and argues. This is absurd.

About 5 pages ago I admitted my own racial biases and welcome anyone to call me on that. Why can't others look at themselves and see the same thing? Racism, although institutional, is in everyone one of us. Let's deal with it. Wow. There it is, isn't it.

Some people can't take the heat of debate and have to attack. It's cool. If we can't challenge their logic, make them out to be insane, delusional or mean/bad people.

He hurt me with his rhetoric, mama! graemlins/mecry.gif None of my fallacies stopped him from asserting his viewpoint. graemlins/mecry.gif

Just do me a favor - please post your pictures so that I know to avoid your asses if I ever see you on the street. Your faces have been revealed anyhow, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Check that haystack once in a while. You might find more than one needle. [/QUOTE]And you do the same... I don't need anyone trying to think for me... I can do that on my own... Thank you very much... [/QUOTE]Look - you and everyone such as you complain about my attempts to DO SOMETHING to you or for you or whatever.

DON'T FLATTER YOURSELVES! If anything, you are all simply fodder to be made examples of. There may be someone who came here to learn something and, if so, they can watch me DESTROY your HOLLOW ARGUEMENTS that reveal your own subconscious tendencies.

I have made NO, NADA, ZERO effort to recruit, marshall or otherwise gather you up into something. If you can't handle someone who speaks confidently WITH AUTHORITY and who is courageous enough to ASSERT THAT COURAGE, then you are ****ed in the real world.

I am certain someone has a nice cubicle for you. How is your 401k working out for you.

DeesKo

06-10-2003, 09:54 AM

For the record, I thought the joke wasn't that funny and could understand how someone could take offense to it.

I also think there's definitely a bit of racism within everyone's being, including my own.

I just found certain aspects of the arguement hypocritical and pointing to a larger issue than whether this specific joke was racist/offensive or not.

Peace

MYOR

06-10-2003, 09:54 AM

[/qb][/QUOTE]And that very good for you... Pero yo no... You want to give your OPIONION its fine don't try to force YOUR way of thinking down my throat... [/qb][/QUOTE]I'm not and please don't try to force yours down mine cause I ain't havin' it.

peace [/QB][/QUOTE]

Obviously I'm not trying to force nothing down your throat.. I said, that is good for you... but it seems that some people feel that if you don't agree with them then your.. wrong... This is not the case... I don't agree with you...thats that simple...

Digiman

06-10-2003, 09:55 AM

I'm Scottish, I don't think I've ever seen a Mexican person in Scotland. The joke was silly but doesn't warrant 10 pages of zzzzzzzzz in my opinion.

When Groundskeeper Willie is on the Simpsons, I don't start crying about it, I find it quite funny. Or when Fat Bastard is on Austin Powers with the kilt and the bagpipes, I don't write to the film company and complain. That's just me however, other people are different.

Bold Soul

06-10-2003, 09:58 AM

Originally posted by Albert Square:
I'm Scottish, I don't think I've ever seen a Mexican person in Scotland. The joke was silly but doesn't warrant 10 pages of zzzzzzzzz in my opinion.

When Groundskeeper Willie is on the Simpsons, I don't start crying about it, I find it quite funny. Or when Fat Bastard is on Austin Powers with the kilt and the bagpipes, I don't write to the film company and complain. That's just me however, other people are different. Ugh...okay. That was the last one. Fine - because you don't complain about Groundskeeper Willie, we're all overreacting.

Gotcha. The introduction of the Simpsons example has revealed to me just how pointless this all has been. Thank you. I am a fool.

Abracadabra.

Digiman

06-10-2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Thank you. I am a fool.

You said it

Digiman

06-10-2003, 10:01 AM

The Simpsons example and the Austin Powers example both make fun of Scottish racial sterotypes which is what the original fuss about the joke was all about.

MYOR

06-10-2003, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
What's the discussion now? Do you find the offense in this joke or not? First people ride on me and bold soul cause they didn't see the offense in the joke. Now that the offense has been established, they want to ride me (cause they lost that argument) for something I openly and repeatedly have admitted to - being a racist myself and bold soul for the way he writes and argues. This is absurd.

About 5 pages ago I admitted my own racial biases and welcome anyone to call me on that. Why can't others look at themselves and see the same thing? Racism, although institutional, is in everyone one of us. Let's deal with it. Wow. There it is, isn't it.

Some people can't take the heat of debate and have to attack. It's cool. If we can't challenge their logic, make them out to be insane, delusional or mean/bad people.

He hurt me with his rhetoric, mama! graemlins/mecry.gif None of my fallacies stopped him from asserting his viewpoint. graemlins/mecry.gif

Just do me a favor - please post your pictures so that I know to avoid your asses if I ever see you on the street. Your faces have been revealed anyhow, so it shouldn't be a problem.

Check that haystack once in a while. You might find more than one needle. [/QUOTE]And you do the same... I don't need anyone trying to think for me... I can do that on my own... Thank you very much... [/QUOTE]Look - you and everyone such as you complain about my attempts to DO SOMETHING to you or for you or whatever.

DON'T FLATTER YOURSELVES! If anything, you are all simply fodder to be made examples of. There may be someone who came here to learn something and, if so, they can watch me DESTROY your HOLLOW ARGUEMENTS that reveal your own subconscious tendencies.

I have made NO, NADA, ZERO effort to recruit, marshall or otherwise gather you up into something. If you can't handle someone who speaks confidently WITH AUTHORITY and who is courageous enough to ASSERT THAT COURAGE, then you are ****ed in the real world.

I am certain someone has a nice cubicle for you. How is your 401k working out for you. [/QUOTE]THANK YOU FOR PROVING MY POINT!!!!! Your resolve to insults when you seem to be backed in a corner... I don't need to try and prove anything... You, in my eyes, are your own worst enemy....

darrow

06-10-2003, 10:03 AM

last question...

Where did Craig go? :D

06-10-2003, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by MYOR:
And that very good for you... Pero yo no... You want to give your OPIONION its fine don't try to force YOUR way of thinking down my throat... [/qb][/QUOTE]I'm not and please don't try to force yours down mine cause I ain't havin' it.

peace [/QB][/QUOTE]

Obviously I'm not trying to force nothing down your throat.. I said, that is good for you... but it seems that some people feel that if you don't agree with them then your.. wrong... This is not the case... I don't agree with you...thats that simple... [/QB][/QUOTE]

That's fine. I don't agree with you either, nor do I agree with a few others that have replied to this topic. I also don't recall where I tried to "force" any of my opinions or beliefs onto you or anyone else in this forum, so I'm not sure where you got that misleading information from. I stayed off this topic for one reason and one reason only--I find it absurd to get into an incongruous joke. It's a waste of server space and I'm fed up with reading a bunch of rubbish that will obviously remain deadlocked with no resolution. I'd rather see this topic locked up and forgotten about. I'm out.

peace

mhd

06-10-2003, 10:34 AM

Originally posted by DeesKo:
For the record, I thought the joke wasn't that funny and could understand how someone could take offense to it.

I also think there's definitely a bit of racism within everyone's being, including my own.

I just found certain aspects of the arguement hypocritical and pointing to a larger issue than whether this specific joke was racist/offensive or not.

Peace but when you focus on the perceived hypocrisy of the messenger, don't you lose sight of the message (which you apparently agree with)?

DeesKo

06-10-2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DeesKo:
For the record, I thought the joke wasn't that funny and could understand how someone could take offense to it.

I also think there's definitely a bit of racism within everyone's being, including my own.

I just found certain aspects of the arguement hypocritical and pointing to a larger issue than whether this specific joke was racist/offensive or not.

Peace but when you focus on the perceived hypocrisy of the messenger, don't you lose sight of the message (which you apparently agree with)? [/QUOTE]Not at all. They are two seperate issues and assuming my stance on one dictates or indicates my opinion on the other would be incorrect.

I deferred making a comment regarding the joke itself until after my other comments were made specifically to highlight this point.

Peace

MYOR

06-10-2003, 10:49 AM

Originally posted by Albert D.:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MYOR:
And that very good for you... Pero yo no... You want to give your OPIONION its fine don't try to force YOUR way of thinking down my throat... [/QUOTE]I'm not and please don't try to force yours down mine cause I ain't havin' it.

peace [/QB][/QUOTE]

Obviously I'm not trying to force nothing down your throat.. I said, that is good for you... but it seems that some people feel that if you don't agree with them then your.. wrong... This is not the case... I don't agree with you...thats that simple... [/QB][/QUOTE]

That's fine. I don't agree with you either, nor do I agree with a few others that have replied to this topic. I also don't recall where I tried to "force" any of my opinions or beliefs onto you or anyone else in this forum, so I'm not sure where you got that misleading information from. I stayed off this topic for one reason and one reason only--I find it absurd to get into an incongruous joke. It's a waste of server space and I'm fed up with reading a bunch of rubbish that will obviously remain deadlocked with no resolution. I'd rather see this topic locked up and forgotten about. I'm out.

peace [/QB][/QUOTE]

Albert please understand I never stated you were trying to trying to force nothing down your throat. I honesty apolygize if this is what you felt... Your feelings are your feeling and that is something I CANNOT and WILL NOT argue with.. Things make you feel a certain way.. and we have no control over that...

I just feel that we really don't need to resolve to insults to make our point... Especially since we really don't know each other....With that being said I'll take your cue and I'm OUT ALSO

Esta bein cariño graemlins/remybussi.gif