its crap like this that give female DJs a bad name [Archive]

Shalewa

05-20-2003, 08:19 PM

Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
http://www.portiasurreal.com

yeah I'm sure some feminists would defend her and say that she is utilizing her femininity (i hope i spelled it right) to empower herself throuh showing her fake boobs but IMO its all about the skills and making the people dance. Do you have any idea about what the foundational concepts of mainstream feminism are? Because I cannot imagine any feminist embracing the notion that promoting oneself in a way that detracts from skill or artistry and advances patriarchal notions of of "feminity" would be laudable. I challenge you to examine your thinking on why this site gives female DJs collectively a bad name and why does DJ Strip's not give male DJs collectively a bad name? I only see the tranferrance happening in cases where the viewer has a baseline bias against women DJs.

2121

05-20-2003, 08:55 PM

I've found that feminism has splintered into many facets, including the sect that believes that women should take advantage of their 'assets' to further themselves. This, in my opinion, is the biggest problem the movement faces.

2121

05-20-2003, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Shalewa:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
http://www.portiasurreal.com

I challenge you to examine your thinking on why this site gives female DJs collectively a bad name and why does DJ Strip's not give male DJs collectively a bad name? I only see the tranferrance happening in cases where the viewer has a baseline bias against women DJs. [/QUOTE]Could it be that she is not the first to utilise her looks as a means of achieving success? Female dj's have been notorious for this, whether they wished it upon themselves or not. In my opinion, this Portia Surreal gives all women collectively a bad name. Seems to me she's just another opportunist taking off her clothes for attention.

Shalewa

05-20-2003, 09:42 PM

She wants to take off her clothes. Big deal. That is her business. Sex sells. That is old news. That this one woman's choices somehow reflect on women collectively (especially given the Truth that most women would not only deny any interest in porn or public nudity but also protest it loudly) is way more of a reflection on your thinking about women than on women's collective behavior or status or anything. I actually think the splintering of feminism is a good thing. It reflects imo women's expanded presence in the world of ideas. Women are more and more just "people" and less the "fairer sex". In this culture where the establishment of an independent individual identity reflects autonomy and a measure of power, that self-affirming women are increasingly understood to have many, many identities canonly mean that women's autonomy and personal power are increasing.

housebe4titties

05-20-2003, 10:00 PM

in the july issue of playboy there will be a segment showcasing a few female djs.

Querck

05-20-2003, 11:37 PM

rob brito

05-20-2003, 11:41 PM

graemlins/bolt.gif

05-20-2003, 11:47 PM

I now have a new favorite DJ. hail.gif

Martin Red

05-21-2003, 12:48 AM

http://www.portiasurreal.com/images/p_1.jpg

Nice box

MrLiam

05-21-2003, 12:48 AM

yes even me Albert some1 to look at when she is playin shity music HEHEHEHE graemlins/rofl.gif

blackwax

05-21-2003, 05:17 AM

her chart sucks!!

05-21-2003, 06:25 AM

if she can spin, who cares? IF she can...

ngeso

05-21-2003, 07:17 AM

on the other hand: who cares if she can spin? does that matter?

Ken1015

05-21-2003, 07:17 AM

I just like how she bills herself as, "The World's Premiere Topless DJ" as if this is a common occurrence. Anyway, Timmy Regisford is the world's premiere topless DJ. :D

Leslie

05-21-2003, 07:37 AM

El Mayimbe, given your avatar elsewhere...what is the difference between this particular dj and your object of desire that dances around on each post you make?

danny webb

05-21-2003, 07:39 AM

nice box graemlins/lol.gif graemlins/rofl.gif

Drrtynewyork

05-21-2003, 07:47 AM

MMMMMMMMM graemlins/1luvu.gif

Austin/Dallas

05-21-2003, 08:19 AM

copy and paste!!!!!!!

Ohhhhhh..If the music is hot and the partys jumping who does'nt want to peel off ...We all have been where we wish we can take it off and get loose..(Parties do tend to make you sweat)

05-21-2003, 08:44 AM

alltalk

05-21-2003, 09:03 AM

there would be no credible feminist 'movement' which would advocate any act that succumbed to hegemonic ideals. particualarly becuase patriarchy pervades institutional and ideological structures to the point of it being subliminal.

this woman's choice to display her sexual assets is her right, but it's what influences her decision that needs to be questioned. 'she' does not give the remainder of female djs a bad name.

'autonomy and empowerment'...WHERE??? not in the hands of this woman.

Jamie 3:26

05-21-2003, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Soulful1015:
I just like how she bills herself as, "The World's Premiere Topless DJ" as if this is a common occurrence. Anyway, Timmy Regisford is the world's premiere topless DJ. :D I had to pass my crown on to Timmy.I told him at SuperLounge,they go nuts when you take your shirt off in the dj booth.

Keith Blackstone

05-21-2003, 09:13 AM

Clearly people don't know Frank's sense of humor/sarcasm/other.

liL Ray

05-21-2003, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by Keith Blackstone:
Clearly people don't know Frank's sense of humor/sarcasm/other. it's not fun...it's not funny.... :D

richierich

05-21-2003, 09:16 AM

Has anyone ever heard her spin??? Maybe she can getdown... you never know.

[ May 21, 2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: richierich ]

alltalk

05-21-2003, 09:21 AM

yeah and i'm wondering who the majority of her patronage would be...het males? nahhh graemlins/rofl.gif

SHEIK YERBOUTI

05-21-2003, 09:22 AM

Originally posted by richierich:
Has anyone ever heard her spin??? Maybe she can getdown... you never know. I do know what she can getdown ON... graemlins/rofl.gif

Just kidding. BUT I'd gladly let her play with my...decks.

[ May 21, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: toomuchtv ]

El Mayimbe

05-21-2003, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Shalewa:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
http://www.portiasurreal.com

yeah I'm sure some feminists would defend her and say that she is utilizing her femininity (i hope i spelled it right) to empower herself through showing her fake breasts but IMO its all about the skills and making the people dance. Do you have any idea about what the foundational concepts of mainstream feminism are? Because I cannot imagine any feminist embracing the notion that promoting oneself in a way that detracts from skill or artistry and advances patriarchal notions of of "feminity" would be laudable. I challenge you to examine your thinking on why this site gives female DJs collectively a bad name and why does DJ Strip's not give male DJs collectively a bad name? I only see the tranferrance happening in cases where the viewer has a baseline bias against women DJs. [/QUOTE]Shalewa, the reson why I state that this gives female DJs a bad name is stemming from the words spoken by other male DJs and the jealousy that arrives from seeing a woman behind the decks.
I agree with you that sex sells, its an old marketing tool yet with a male dominated industry a female DJ has to work even harder in proving herself to her peers.
Whats going to be their (men)arguement (which i can guarentee I've heard a million times)
"She got that gig cause she's a girl"
I'm not goign against her looks or if she wants to capitalize upon it. But if she jsut wants to show off her tits and DJ horribley (I got DJ Penelope Tuesdae in mind as another example) then this is what gives female DJs and dance music in general a bad name.

& in regards to feminism, no I havent read upon the total history of the movement so I'm not going to debate on exact facets of the movers and shakers of feminism but I am only stating on what I gather from the philosophy today which is:
in the 70's feminism was all about anti-pronography and burning bras
today pornography is supposedly a woman's choice and it empowers them (I'm serious i saw this one feminist on 60 minutes say this when asked about the industry)in the sense that they are using their sexual openess that men can perform and get away with but women are not allowed to do.

05-21-2003, 09:56 AM

so, what gives male dj's a bad name?

El Mayimbe

05-21-2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by Leslie:
El Mayimbe, given your avatar elsewhere...what is the difference between this particular dj and your object of desire that dances around on each post you make? LOL, cause Christina can SING! Who knows if this DJ can spin @all, thats my point. hail.gif
(and I told u Leslie dont be hatin on my girl!)

Bold Soul

05-21-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by MEast:
there would be no credible feminist 'movement' which would advocate any act that succumbed to hegemonic ideals. particualarly becuase patriarchy pervades institutional and ideological structures to the point of it being subliminal.

this woman's choice to display her sexual assets is her right, but it's what influences her decision that needs to be questioned. 'she' does not give the remainder of female djs a bad name.

'autonomy and empowerment'...WHERE??? not in the hands of this woman. What does her breasts have to do with larger society as a whole?

Better get those dunking tanks ready. She should do a bit in the asylum because she doesn't know what she's doing. Poor child is obviously possessed.

Maybe wear a scarlet letter. Yea, that's it.

;)

El Mayimbe

05-21-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by dannyboy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
http://www.portiasurreal.com

Hey, have you read you handle lately? [/QUOTE]yes I have and its actually a criticism of NYC Djs who jsut play one genre of Hosue Music actually. I am an avid fan of Danny Tenaglia due to the fact that he plays many genres of House and this is due to being ELCECTIC.
You tell me a succesful DeepHouse party besides THE SHELTER in Manhattan (BK is an exception) that packs more than 500 people on a weekly basis.

thats my point through the avatar ;)

[ May 21, 2003, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: EL MAYIMBE ]

alltalk

05-21-2003, 10:00 AM

pornography has no relation to a woman's empowerment.

as for the 'splintering' of the feminist movement...what are we talking about here? spice girls and 'girrrl power'. my, that is progress.

05-21-2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dannyboy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
http://www.portiasurreal.com

Hey, have you read you handle lately? [/QUOTE]yes I have and its actually a criticism of NYC Djs who jsut play one genre of Hosue Music actually. I am an avid fan of Danny Tenaglia due to the fact that he plays many genres of House and this is due to being ELCECTIC.
You tell me a succesful DeepHouse party besides THE SHELTER in Manhattan that packs more than 50 people on a weekly basis.

thats my point through the avatar ;) [/QUOTE]i'm glad you said this...according to my sources, ny house is not as progressive as some new yorkers want us to believe...

i heard that they play the same ol' stuff at the same ol' clubs for the same ol' people - just letting the days go by...

alltalk

05-21-2003, 10:13 AM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MEast:
there would be no credible feminist 'movement' which would advocate any act that succumbed to hegemonic ideals. particualarly becuase patriarchy pervades institutional and ideological structures to the point of it being subliminal.

this woman's choice to display her sexual assets is her right, but it's what influences her decision that needs to be questioned. 'she' does not give the remainder of female djs a bad name.

'autonomy and empowerment'...WHERE??? not in the hands of this woman. What does her breasts have to do with larger society as a whole?

Better get those dunking tanks ready. She should do a bit in the asylum because she doesn't know what she's doing. Poor child is obviously possessed.

Maybe wear a scarlet letter. Yea, that's it.

;) [/QUOTE]she may be sane (at least i hope so) but not unaffected by a constant societal pressure to do things *she feels* would 'level the playing field'. it may make her feel good, sure, and i'm not denying her that. i just don't believe a decision to commodify a sexual asset (for a woman anyway) can be devoid of social influence.

SHEIK YERBOUTI

05-21-2003, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dannyboy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by EL MAYIMBE:
http://www.portiasurreal.com

Hey, have you read you handle lately? [/QUOTE]yes I have and its actually a criticism of NYC Djs who jsut play one genre of Hosue Music actually. I am an avid fan of Danny Tenaglia due to the fact that he plays many genres of House and this is due to being ELCECTIC.
You tell me a succesful DeepHouse party besides THE SHELTER in Manhattan that packs more than 50 people on a weekly basis.

thats my point through the avatar ;) [/QUOTE]i'm glad you said this...according to my sources, ny house is not as progressive as some new yorkers want us to believe...

i heard that they play the same ol' stuff at the same ol' clubs for the same ol' people - just letting the days go by... [/QUOTE]While I can't really comment on the feminism aspect of this thread, I can understand why some dj's might be hesitant to 'push the envelope.'

As long as it may have taken to get some cats to get a regular gig, you don't just wanna start throwing too many curves and risk losing it. I can't say I wouldn't get just as complacent myself.

SHEIK YERBOUTI

05-21-2003, 10:21 AM

Originally posted by MEast:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MEast:
there would be no credible feminist 'movement' which would advocate any act that succumbed to hegemonic ideals. particualarly becuase patriarchy pervades institutional and ideological structures to the point of it being subliminal.

this woman's choice to display her sexual assets is her right, but it's what influences her decision that needs to be questioned. 'she' does not give the remainder of female djs a bad name.

'autonomy and empowerment'...WHERE??? not in the hands of this woman. What does her breasts have to do with larger society as a whole?

Better get those dunking tanks ready. She should do a bit in the asylum because she doesn't know what she's doing. Poor child is obviously possessed.

Maybe wear a scarlet letter. Yea, that's it.

;) [/QUOTE]she may be sane (at least i hope so) but not unaffected by a constant societal pressure to do things *she feels* would 'level the playing field'. it may make her feel good, sure, and i'm not denying her that. i just don't believe a decision to commodify a sexual asset (for a woman anyway) can be devoid of social influence. [/QUOTE]Maybe that's why it's called "Shaking your Money Maker."

lola desire

05-21-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by Shalewa:
She wants to take off her clothes. Big deal. That is her business. Sex sells. That is old news. That this one woman's choices somehow reflect on women collectively (especially given the Truth that most women would not only deny any interest in porn or public nudity but also protest it loudly) is way more of a reflection on your thinking about women than on women's collective behavior or status or anything. I actually think the splintering of feminism is a good thing. It reflects imo women's expanded presence in the world of ideas. Women are more and more just "people" and less the "fairer sex". In this culture where the establishment of an independent individual identity reflects autonomy and a measure of power, that self-affirming women are increasingly understood to have many, many identities canonly mean that women's autonomy and personal power are increasing. word--as usual you are on point shalewa.

boobs are just boobs. there are hundreds (possibly thousands) of them hanging around wherever you go. as far as the topless dj and whether she's a "disgrace" or not, i reference the dj strip comment made earlier. if she plays good music, what does it matter?

Dr. Freud

05-21-2003, 11:47 AM

She does bachelor parties, strip club special appearances and things of that sort... you aren't going to see her booked at any reputable clubs.

Basecore Boy

05-21-2003, 12:07 PM

If guys had them nice ones they would hang out all the time.

Some DJ's may need to show them, because they are boring with their set.

SHEIK YERBOUTI

05-21-2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
If guys had them nice ones they would hang out all the time.

Some DJ's may need to show them, because they are boring with their set. I remember once hearing a comedian saying something like, "If guys had tits, we'd never leave the house! We'd just sit there all day..."
He then mimics suckling himself. graemlins/rofl.gif

Friday

05-21-2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
If guys had them nice ones they would hang out all the time.

Some DJ's may need to show them, because they are boring with their set. I remember once hearing a comedian saying something like, "If guys had tits, we'd never leave the house! We'd just sit there all day..."
He then mimics suckling himself. graemlins/rofl.gif [/QUOTE]That is so retarded icon_rofl.gif

Bill Blake

05-21-2003, 12:40 PM

Although there are splintered groups with varying definitions of the term ‘feminism’, overall I think it would be safe to say that most would regard ‘El’s comment that ‘they’ would support this woman’s gimmick quite insulting to their movement.

The ‘broader’ (for lack of a better word) feminist movement regards women not just as a group that has been oppressed economically or legally but also (and some may argue most importantly) culturally in that they see this world a patriarchic one were men set the standards for what women are in just about every facet of their existence.

The types of ‘feminist’ that argue as part of the movement this type of behavior is supported by or what feminism is about is a fringe group at best and only really gets lip service, as many feminist would argue because these fringe ‘feminist’ views go against the more general feminist view (which is opposed to the patriarchy) and are more inline with what the patriarch would want ‘feminism’ to be….a useless term where the degradation of women as sexual objects is no longer anti-feminist but ‘empowerment’ through sex (aka tricknology).

As far as I’m concerned she can do what she wants but I certainly would not call her behavior an example of empowerment under the philosophy of feminism.

[ May 21, 2003, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Jamie Lennox ]

05-21-2003, 03:48 PM

Originally posted by Soulful1015:
Timmy Regisford is the world's premiere topless DJ. :D I thought that was David Morales? He seems to lose his shirt everytime he spins, or is it just me?

[ May 21, 2003, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: Albert D. ]

Discogoddess

05-21-2003, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
....a useless term where the degradation of women as sexual objects is no longer anti-feminist but ‘empowerment’ through sex (aka tricknology)....LMAO @ the use of "tricknology"...for several reasons! ;)

vinny from the Burgh

05-21-2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by richierich:
Has anyone ever heard her spin??? Maybe she can getdown... you never know. I do know what she can getdown ON... graemlins/rofl.gif

Just kidding. BUT I'd gladly let her play with my...decks. [/QUOTE]The Zelch's should book this bitch

2121

05-21-2003, 05:26 PM

Originally posted by Shalewa:
She wants to take off her clothes. Big deal. That is her business. Sex sells. That is old news. That this one woman's choices somehow reflect on women collectively...Sure sex sells...as do a host of other commodities including drugs, guns etc. but that doesn't mean it's rational behaviour given it's effect on girls in general, sending them the message that they can profit from their short-lived 'beauty', whether such profit is vocational or interpersonal.

Originally posted by Shalewa:
I actually think the splintering of feminism is a good thing. It reflects imo women's expanded presence in the world of ideas.While women's presence definitely has expanded into a host of different issues, I wouldn't consider the resulting groups as being feminist. I've found most of these organizations generally use female empowerment as a means of remedying an underlying social problem.

An example would be socialist feminism which links women's oppression to the class structure (that a woman's work of child raising is not materially rewarded by society). Starkly different would be conservative feminism, which advocates a return to the familial structure and therefore working within the patriarchy.

There's media feminism, eco-feminism, radical feminism and countless other fringe groups which operate under 'feminism', yet are made up of completely different people. I think it's these contrasting views, along with media slander that have disintegrated the movement to the point where its almost completely dead.

Cordell

05-21-2003, 05:31 PM

I would like to see more of this! I see nothing wrong in this type of marketing, and it would be an added plus if she could actually play good music too.

2121

05-21-2003, 05:33 PM

Originally posted by MEast:
pornography has no relation to a woman's empowerment.

as for the 'splintering' of the feminist movement...what are we talking about here? spice girls and 'girrrl power'. my, that is progress. I'd disagree in regards to the pornography bit. Women can achieve short-term empowerment by getting naked and manipulating men into handing over their money. How long this will be effective, I cannot tell. All I can say is how I am more frequently hearing complaints from guys about how breasts don't turn them on as much they used to.

Bold Soul

05-21-2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by MEast:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MEast:
there would be no credible feminist 'movement' which would advocate any act that succumbed to hegemonic ideals. particualarly becuase patriarchy pervades institutional and ideological structures to the point of it being subliminal.

this woman's choice to display her sexual assets is her right, but it's what influences her decision that needs to be questioned. 'she' does not give the remainder of female djs a bad name.

'autonomy and empowerment'...WHERE??? not in the hands of this woman. What does her breasts have to do with larger society as a whole?

Better get those dunking tanks ready. She should do a bit in the asylum because she doesn't know what she's doing. Poor child is obviously possessed.

Maybe wear a scarlet letter. Yea, that's it.

;) [/QUOTE]she may be sane (at least i hope so) but not unaffected by a constant societal pressure to do things *she feels* would 'level the playing field'. it may make her feel good, sure, and i'm not denying her that. i just don't believe a decision to commodify a sexual asset (for a woman anyway) can be devoid of social influence. [/QUOTE]Interesting. So you are asserting above that , while her individual choices may be voluntary, they are really in line with a systemic set of choices?

Wow. Deterministic unpredictability. I can see this at work in your assertion. Bravo!

[ May 21, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

05-21-2003, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by Cordell:
I would like to see more of this! I see nothing wrong in this type of marketing, and it would be an added plus if she could actually play good music too. For once, I'd have to say screw the music. I'm more into the marketing. :D

Martin Red

05-22-2003, 03:05 AM

After all the intelectualized statements, lets play a game called say what you see.

A dirtbag with a pair of head phones.

if she looked like Bobby Konders in a NuGroove T this post and our discussion wouldn't exist.

Oh, and yes I would biggrinangel.gif filthy little minx , meeeowwww, but she is what she is, a porno b ird with a nice pair of decks.

I wonder if she does backspins and I wonder if she scratches and I would like to teach her how to use the rotary or the slider, maybe worth sampling .. OK enough :D

Mah'chew

05-22-2003, 03:18 AM

Tried to book her for our xmas office party :D

javasoul

05-22-2003, 03:24 AM

ok after all this talk, i ve got ONE and ONE thing to say about this:

http://www.gtp-inc.com/images/emoticons/idhitit.gif

biggrinangel.gif

05-22-2003, 05:31 AM

http://www.makuragi.s5.com/fpics/idhitit3.jpg

Matiaz Vega

05-22-2003, 05:51 AM

I know what i would request..."put ém on the glass" by sir mix a lot...yay yay!!

I´ll bet she gets this a lot:
"are they (sur)real...?"
graemlins/acclaim.gif

[ May 22, 2003, 06:51 AM: Message edited by: Matiaz Vega ]

05-22-2003, 06:06 AM

so, you guys are so concerned with her giving women a bad name, what could possibly give male dj's a bad name?

Jacques de Doozu

05-22-2003, 06:11 AM

Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
so, you guys are so concerned with her giving women a bad name, what could possibly give male dj's a bad name? please discuss this one without pictures... biggrinangel.gif

alltalk

05-22-2003, 06:40 AM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MEast:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by MEast:
there would be no credible feminist 'movement' which would advocate any act that succumbed to hegemonic ideals. particualarly becuase patriarchy pervades institutional and ideological structures to the point of it being subliminal.

this woman's choice to display her sexual assets is her right, but it's what influences her decision that needs to be questioned. 'she' does not give the remainder of female djs a bad name.

'autonomy and empowerment'...WHERE??? not in the hands of this woman. What does her breasts have to do with larger society as a whole?

Better get those dunking tanks ready. She should do a bit in the asylum because she doesn't know what she's doing. Poor child is obviously possessed.

Maybe wear a scarlet letter. Yea, that's it.

;) [/QUOTE]she may be sane (at least i hope so) but not unaffected by a constant societal pressure to do things *she feels* would 'level the playing field'. it may make her feel good, sure, and i'm not denying her that. i just don't believe a decision to commodify a sexual asset (for a woman anyway) can be devoid of social influence. [/QUOTE]Interesting. So you are asserting above that , while her individual choices may be voluntary, they are really in line with a systemic set of choices?

Wow. Deterministic unpredictability. I can see this at work in your assertion. Bravo! [/QUOTE]not either or. individual action does not operate within a vaccuum. her autonomy is constrained by social factors. whether she chooses to display her breasts or her teeth has cultural significance. the decision is not arbitrary, it has a more precise application.

to dismiss outright that (patriarchal) structures can influence her agency, is to deny that the principles upon which she excercises the governance of choices are manipulated in any way, shape or form by extrinsic causes, and that sexual oppression (of women) at a social level has no bearing on a woman's choices.

so, in effect, to bare her breasts in this context has a great deal to do with larger society.

[ May 22, 2003, 09:06 AM: Message edited by: MEast ]