was disco more costly to produce..?

[mjoseph]

than other forms of popular music.?
often there were numerous vocalists, horns, strings, arrangers, engineers, etc..

and at it's height, the record industry was spending more than ever on productions in general so...

if you have any insight please answer. also curious to know - did the cost put into the creation of elaborate multi track productions enhance the quality of the records (personal opinion pls)?

[djmarbll]

Music period was more expensive to produce in the '70s than it is now for several reasons:

Real musicians were hired to play the music and not machines or downloaded software.

2-inch analog tape was used instead of digital technology that's used today, which makes editing much easier. Back then if a mistake was made, another take might have had to be done.

Record labels had more patience for coming up with material then and didn't have the fast food cookie-cutter mentality that it has now as far as making a hit. This meant labels were more lenient with recording budgets than they are now.

In the '70s bands spent more time trying to make albums, instead of hit singles, which dominate the industry today. This meant more studio time and more money to pay for that studio time.

[djmarbll]

Labels threw more money into disco at the time because it was making so much money. But it did cost more to do a disco record if a full orchestra was used, which was often the case.

[mjoseph]

Labels threw more money into disco at the time because it was making so much money. But it did cost more to do a disco record if a full orchestra was used, which was often the case.

seems like the quality of albums were better in the 70's. mr.mancuso posted a list of the top selling records and many were 70's LPs. because like you wrote people took the time and were focused on quality, notonly disco but pop/rock as well.

[djmarbll]

seems like the quality of albums were better in the 70's. mr.mancuso posted a list of the top selling records and many were 70's LPs. because like you wrote people took the time and were focused on quality, notonly disco but pop/rock as well.

Sound quality of albums in the '70s were better because they were recorded in analog wavelenghts, which is natural sound. Cd's and digital recording is done in binary code (1's and 0's) so it reproduces a sound that isn't natural to the ear. Nowadays you can get an analog sound from digital, but you have to have software to do it. The analog processing that was used on many records in the '70s isn't really used now (Pultecs, Lexicons, etc).

[old disco jock]

best topic in a long long time

[BrazenMuse]

best topic in a long long time

amen!!

[dennis f]

More expensive?
Most definitely!

Quick breakdown...for yall

Studio time @ a time when having a proper big studio was considered the "in" thing was expensive. A quality mixing desk ala a Neve or SSL console was considered standard. Say 150k to 250k. This cost and operation costs were deferred to the session. So let's say the time spent at a studio with these preferred consoles were running at about 75 an hour without an engineer. Add in 35 an hour for a decent quality engineer..maybe 50 for a baller. So now were looking at about 110 bucks an hour. You could probably get a discount for a "block out" day considered 10 hours standard for 1k a day. Figure 5 - 10 days for recording and mixing...so now we're in the 10k range. Just for time!

Next you got the studio musicians. For lots of disco records there were string sections. On low budget you were looking at a quartet with overdubbing. Figure in those days at about 100 hour for each one. It usually took 1 day of recording for that. 400hr x 10 = 4k

Now bass player, guitarist, drummer and keyboard player all were in the same range. Some you could get for 400 bucks for 2 days. Figure 1600

Background singers if you were lucky were 100 bucks a piece. Figure 4x100 = 400 bucks

The lead singer was probably someone you knew or somebody dying to get down...so you figure that person got 250 straight out.

Lets do the math
10k + 4k + 1.6k + 400 + 250 = $16,250.00

now lets add necessities.

2 reels of ampex 456 2" tape 100 x 2 = 200 bucks
Food/drink and other necessities for 10 days @ roughly 75 a day = 750
Figure in 3 grams of blow and some weed @ 150 bucks

total $17,300.00 bucks

oops forgot to add 2 reels of 1/4" tape for masters(no dats or cd's in those days) another 150

$17,450

If you had connects and some friends you could get a way with this for like 8k
in some hole-in-the wall studio. Keeping in mind that it just might sound like crap..but hey..this is what you get when you try to "cheap" out this sort of thing.

In todays day in age...the same project done at home would maybe run you about 2.5k. If you book time at studio for the string section....you figure 4 hours studio time (nothing like recording this in a proper room) and the string players your looking at 1.5k. The singer price is negotiable and the backgrounds are like 400 bucks. That's what you're looking at. Although your own time is in a sense is money..... You're still saving a whole crap load of dough.

Compared to todays methods and pricing...it was almost impossible to be put on with out some kind of hook up. So yeah..with the advent of cheaper more available equipment came the necessary evil. A lower quality of product being produced on an unheard of scale. Those days you couldn't really afford to put out crap....you had one shot and if ya blew it...you were mud. You'd be broke.

On the other hand...this has also let in the possibility of someone creating unbelievable compositions. It's sort of a double edged sword nowadays.

On the note of the analog vs. digital debate. Whilst there is a noticeable difference in the pseudo warmth of analog gear...in reality a deficiency...it is still in the hands of the producer and engineer. If your music sounds distorted or edgy...then in reality you really don't know what the fuck you're doing. End of story. Learn you're gear ...learn it's limits and possiblities. Learn how to mix in the digital domain. It takes a whole re-educating process to get it right...Shit..I'm still learning! I've a/b'd mixes (analog vs. digital) constantly and 9 times out of 10 an amazing engineer's digital mix sounds better believe it or not. There's been countless blind test shootouts and most pick the digital mix. LMAO! It's all in the ears bruh...all in the ears. If your a crappy mixer..it ain't gonna make a difference whether your on digital or analog. It's still gonna sound like crap.

[FK]

Learn you're gear...
[bustin' balls] Yes Dennis, they're is so much tool earn! [/bustin' balls]

(incidentally, this was post #808 for you... more kick and cowbell please!!)

FK

[dennis f]

[bustin' balls] Yes Dennis, they're is so much tool earn! [/bustin' balls]

(incidentally, this was post #808 for you... more kick and cowbell please!!)

FK

BWHAHAHAHA LMAO!!!

[dennis f]

Hey Francois...does this pricing seem in the ballpark? You were knee deep in this...so give me and these peeps an education...

[FK]

Hey Francois...does this pricing seem in the ballpark? You were knee deep in this...so give me and these peeps an education...

Pretty much so, but a bit on the high end especially if making multiple songs.

For an album, the price would have been more in the $5,000 ~$7,000 per song. An average song took 3 to 4 hours
for basic tracking, 8 hours for overdubs, 3 hours for lead vocals, and then got mixed in 6 hours or less.

Many times people would cut three or four basic tracks a day, with some of the sessions during the night shift at cheaper rates...
State-of-the-art studios all commanded at least $110 up to $175 per hour before engineer, unless you had a special hookup.

Also, you forgot to include the producer's fee, and arranger+ copyist for the strings. (no horns, no percussions?...)

Those prices I quoted would be 1980 dollars, so you do the math.

Major label work could very easily go over $100,000 per song before the producer's fee on big artists.

(travel, hotel accommodations, exotic studios, support staff, guest star performers, remixes, etc...)

ymmhv! (Your Mileage May Have Varied)

FK

[dennis f]

Pretty much so, but a bit on the high end especially if making multiple songs.

For an album, the price would have been more in the $5,000 ~$7,000 per song. An average song took 3 to 4 hours
for basic tracking, 8 hours for overdubs, 3 hours for lead vocals, and then got mixed in 6 hours or less.

Many times people would cut three or four basic tracks a day, with some of the sessions during the night shift at cheaper rates...
State-of-the-art studios all commanded at least $110 up to $175 per hour before engineer, unless you had a special hookup.

Also, you forgot to include the producer's fee, and arranger+ copyist for the strings. (no horns, no percussions?...)

Those prices I quoted would be 1980 dollars, so you do the math.

Major label work could very easily go over $100,000 per song before the producer's fee on big artists.

(travel, hotel accommodations, exotic studios, support staff, guest star performers, remixes, etc...)

ymmhv! (Your Mileage May Have Varied)

FK

just what i had thought..unless you had that special hook up...it was pretty expensive. Especially considering that 8 grand in those days was close to 15k now. Damn....those were the days eh? LOL! To tell you the truth i kinda miss those songs...they were fun. It's all to serious nowadays...I haven't heard a fun song in eons. Can someone please make one?

one love

[DOTSmusic]

for most recordings i'd say yes.
but did it really have to be?more artists just seem to be a whole
lot more resourceful nowadays.

i guess it just all depends on what you are trying to go for.
and i think the same thing is true today.

i come from a punk rock back ground and i know a whole lot of those
bands made amazing albums back in the day on a very, very small budget.

"some" people are still doing it today but instead of, say spending their
advancement money on bullshit... theywill build their own studio to their
liking with that money and record whatever albums they owe the label, and
every album they will ever record after that.

thats one of the many reasons why the indie music scenes are going strong
and major labels are filing for bankruptcy left and right. more artists are in it
for the long haul, they are more business minded and they have a game plan...
not just trying to score that major hit.

but like i said.. it all depends on what you are going for. nowadays especially...
a hit record does not equal talent.

"if your message ain't shit, fuck the records you sold.
cuz if you go platinum, it's got nothing to do with luck
it just means that a million people are stupid as fuck."

IMMORTAL TECHNIQUE: INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION

cheers!
aKiLa

[jah]

Major label work could very easily go over $100,000 per song before the producer's fee on big artists.

(travel, hotel accommodations, exotic studios, support staff, guest star performers, remixes, etc...)

ymmhv! (Your Mileage May Have Varied)

FK

:scared::eek::eek::scared:

[dennis f]

...........
"if your message ain't shit, fuck the records you sold.
cuz if you go platinum, it's got nothing to do with luck
it just means that a million people are stupid as fuck."



bruh...i love this...gonna have to gank this as a new signature!

laters

[FK]

Real musicians were hired to play the music and not machines or downloaded software.

Please let me know when you find out what software (as you say) plays the music. I'm keenly interested....

I was under the impression that if I wanted to have someone play a piano solo today, they still needed to play it,
and would want to get paid for the session. Well, that was thinking that humans were still the ones creating the
music, and all that.

Unless you know something I don't.

Please let me know via PM if you ever find out how to get piano solos (or any other instruments) from any machine
or software.


The analog processing that was used on many records in the '70s isn't really used now (Pultecs, Lexicons, etc).

O RLY ??

I understand you have good intentions, but these types of statements you are making are fairly inaccurate at best,
and at worst helpful in highlighting that while you may have a respectable and endearing philosophy about analog
and digital sound, you appear (to me at least) to know very little about these topics from your own actual and personal
experience, more likely from second-hand information you've gleaned via people whose opinions you respect, but
which has somehow sadly gotten distorted along the way each time it got passed on, until it is hardly recognizable.

I realize that passing on and helping perpetuate these inaccuracies is all too common these days, but I don't think
that it makes it OK for anyone of us to do so unchallenged, else we are inviting a culture of increasing mediocrity
and urban legends that may one day, - and if repeated enough times - pass for reality.

For the sake of accuracy, please allow me to make suggestions as to what you might have considered saying instead:


While the analog signal processors used in studios during pre-digital times have now mostly been replaced with the kind of software plug-in effects the typical 'bedroom producer' has come to rely on in their DAW, many of the originals have become highly prized and collectible items, which are still valued as irreplaceable by many professional producers and engineers with discerning ears, with some of these selling today for many times what they cost when they were new. The resilience and durability of these analog monsters speaks volumes for their quality of design, ease of use and unparalleled sound quality; which explains why many expensive replicas of these legendary hardware models are still making their way into the professional audio marketplace every day.

The kicker being of course that all of this analog-loving and live-worshipping information is being shared over the ultimate
distributed digital network (i.e.: Teh Internets). That should in itself be a living proof than rather than focusing on the
method of delivery (digital network versus sending letters to each other in the mail) we should all be concerned about the
level and quality of musicianship and songwriting, not the way in which we create and exchange that information.

But as always, it might just be time to whip out the Marshall McLuhan quote again, that "The Medium Is The Message".

Which I wonder if I agree with anymore. Love being the message I have no problem with. Whichever way you choose to
deliver it is OK by me. Digital love, analog love. It'll still be love.

Love,

FK

[dennis f]

OMG...you know...i was considering answering "that" post ...but you said it all...

I love ya Francois!

So many misconceptions in the production world are propagated by people who come across with second hand knowledge and opinions. No disrespect to the poster ....really.

In all honesty ....his heart was in the right direction I guess. The analog "natural" processing statement is blatantly wrong though. As a fact the reason why it's appealing is because of it's faults.

Also...i don't know where the (pultec/lexi's arent used anymore) came from but it's alive aplenty. Hence the reason why PT/Logic/Nuendo/DP allow external fx/instruments to come up as plug in/inserts. I in fact have several pieces of vintage gear that I "patch" in utilizing this feature. Can't even count how many people won't give up their tc electronic 2290's and L480's...so it's still being used today...it's just like i said earlier. Shitty ears? Shitty songwriting ability? = Shitty Record

[Sal Paradise]

So were early - mid 80's hiphop records, 80's chicago house records and dance records like

Visual - The Music Got Me

the start of production costs becoming significantly less? The start of home studios finding there end product in clubs?

[Martin Red]

As a fact the reason why it's appealing is because of it's faults.

i'm interested to hear more on this

Thanks

[Mike Barnes]

Francios, Have you ever worked with any hiphop artists, Back in the 80's my man(Producing or remixing Projects), Francios, I'm not building about plates like, 'Must be the music', By Secret Weapon, Or, 'Last night a Dj Saved my

Life', By Indeep, My man/LOL, Francios, I'm Building about a true MC/MC's, Rhyming, From Start to finish my man(Examples:Furious 5,Treacherous 3,Spoonie G,Spyder D,Disco 4,Fearless 4,Etc), Francios, What were your thoughts on the early Hiphop plates, Back in 1979, And, The early 80's my

Man(Like, 'King Tim The third', By The Fatback Band, 'Rapper's Delight',Sugerhill Gang, 'Sponin Rap', By Spoonie G,Etc, Francios, I do recall you running a few hiphop plates, When you were mixing at Pipins in the early 80's to my man.
Much Respect
Mike Barnes

[House Music Aficionado]

Music period was more expensive to produce in the '70s than it is now for several reasons:

Real musicians were hired to play the music and not machines or downloaded software.

2-inch analog tape was used instead of digital technology that's used today, which makes editing much easier. Back then if a mistake was made, another take might have had to be done.

Record labels had more patience for coming up with material then and didn't have the fast food cookie-cutter mentality that it has now as far as making a hit. This meant labels were more lenient with recording budgets than they are now.

In the '70s bands spent more time trying to make albums, instead of hit singles, which dominate the industry today. This meant more studio time and more money to pay for that studio time.



This is a brilliant post! Also, thanks to Dennis F and others for the good insight.


In principle that could very well be true, but still, in the advancement of programmable studio instruments, digital mixing consoles, hard disk compression, editing/sequencing software, etc. still even busting out top notch "mastered remixes" (ie: post-production) even was quite expensive, even in the 1990s and beyond.


This world famous DJ/Producer/Remixer (I'd rather not mention his name but he's right up there with Morales, Frankie, etc.) confided in me that David Morales for instance would have 3 engineers in 3 separate studio rooms at Quad Studios, NYC (e.g.: Steve Barkan in one, John Poppo in the other, and Dave Sussman in another), swinging between 3 remixes at the same time, on the same day. All of it was so that most $$$$ could be used to pay the instrumentalists, engineers, studio fees, etc. because the major A&Rs could pay them a flat rate (e.g.: $25k-75K per radio mix, club mix, dub mix, etc.). Of course this was in the hay days of his career (1992-1998 period).


Sometimes the majors (i.e.: Sony/Columbia) would have him set with a studio, engineer, etc. particularly for the Mariah Carey and Michael Jackson remixes. So, point being, even post-production can be just as expensive as original productions, in many cases, and it's way more tedious work than just taking a VOX acapella of the original vocal and threading it from there.

....

[herb martin]

This in a very interesting read...Thanks FK & Dennis (asa well as everyone else) for your insights :)

[Nige55]

This in a very interesting read...Thanks FK & Dennis (asa well as everyone else) for your insights :)

Gonna shamelessly sidetrack here - Herb - You're wonderful 'mo classics' mix is still in heavy rotation, and became the soundtrack to me 'popping the question' 2 weeks ago in getting engaged. Had me in tears with all the emotions running high, jus wanted to say thanks brother. :):)
Anywayz, sorry to digress.........

[herb martin]

Gonna shamelessly sidetrack here - Herb - You're wonderful 'mo classics' mix is still in heavy rotation, and became the soundtrack to me 'popping the question' 2 weeks ago in getting engaged. Had me in tears with all the emotions running high, jus wanted to say thanks brother. :):)
Anywayz, sorry to digress.........

First off...CONGRATULATIONS!!! I glad a mix i did could contribute to such a special moment

Secondly, WOW! I thank you for listening, It's these kind of compliments that makes my day.

The goes to show that the Music made in the so-called "Sucky Disco Era" of the 70s & 80s was great music...very well written and produced...Now thats not taking anything away from the the Good music being produced today(I love alot of the great stuff being produced these days as well). I'm just saying that for many of us Heads from back then...that era of music will always hold a special place in our hearts.

Thanks again Nige55

[Nige55]

First off...CONGRATULATIONS!!! I glad a mix i did could contribute to such a special moment

Secondly, WOW! I thank you for listening, It's these kind of compliments that makes my day.

The goes to show that the Music made in the so-called "Sucky Disco Era" of the 70s & 80s was great music...very well written and produced...Now thats not taking anything away from the the Good music being produced today(I love alot of the great stuff being produced these days as well). I'm just saying that for many of us Heads from back then...that era of music will always hold a special place in our hearts.

Thanks again Nige55

No no, I thank YOU Herb !!
Thank you for your congratulatory post, but really coupling your spirit felt music with the start of a new future was beyond how I ever imagined that moment to be. Those tracks (your mix) will be dished out to our kids (God willing). For example, starting that mix on the way to the airport in the car to meet her knowing I was gonna propose had me in floods of tears. Your music captured the most beautiful moment of my life !! Incredible.

Peace and Love to you and your family !

[mjoseph]

Damn....those were the days eh? LOL! To tell you the truth i kinda miss those songs...they were fun. It's all to serious nowadays...I haven't heard a fun song in eons.


even those of us born at the very end of the 70's can recognize. they were fun especially the lyrics. they were catchy, fun and you could go back and listen to them over and over most times hearing something new within the texture - maybe groove on just the percussion.

the main ingredient 'happiness is just around the bend' comes to mind. fun, great changes, sing along, dance along - so perfect.

can't help but wondering though, have the chord progessions and melodies all been exhausted already. there are only so many, no?

perhaps a different topic (or not one at all)?

[FK]

Francios, Have you ever worked with any hiphop artists, Back in the 80's my man(Producing or remixing Projects), Francios, I'm not building about plates like, 'Must be the music', By Secret Weapon, Or, 'Last night a Dj Saved my Life', By Indeep, My man/LOL, Francios, I'm Building about a true MC/MC's, Rhyming, From Start to finish my man(Examples:Furious 5,Treacherous 3,Spoonie G,Spyder D,Disco 4,Fearless 4,Etc), Francios, What were your thoughts on the early Hiphop plates, Back in 1979, And, The early 80's my Man(Like, 'King Tim The third', By The Fatback Band, 'Rapper's Delight',Sugerhill Gang, 'Sponin Rap', By Spoonie G,Etc, Francios, I do recall you running a few hiphop plates, When you were mixing at Pipins in the early 80's to my man.
Much Respect
Mike Barnes

Hey Mike,

Sorry for the delay responding. I was only spinning the more 'commercial' things in places like Pippin's at that time, besides 'Rapper's Delight' and 'The Message', I also recall playing stuff by Kurtis Blow, Spoonie G, Orange Krush, as well as that Grand Groove record 'Catch The Beat', The Sequence and a few others, but the places that were very up on this sort of stuff like Treacherous Three and Spyder D were those downtown rock clubs like the Mudd Club or AM/PM, where the crowd wanted to hear all of this, mixed with New Wave, Ska, Reggae and Punk... very raw and potent. Sadly I stopped being an active DJ right around that time ('83), to exclusively focus on studio work, so I am not very well versed in all of this early stuff.

Did a couple of things in that vein later in the decade, like a remix of 'Wildstyle' by Time Zone with Boyd Jarvis doing some keys, but it didn't amount to much compared to the volume of other things I got involved with.

FK

[dennis f]

Martin...

Tape is notoriously faulty. It was sort of dependent upon the quality of 2" machine the manufacturer developed AND the technology that was available, within a pricing reality, at the time. Studer A80's tended to be the one's i came across more often than not in most high end places. Before those I would see 3M's...some Sony APR's later in the game..and the entry level Otari's. Tape had a distinctive roll off on the high end. Giving it a sort of smoothing feature to harsh/high transient peaks. What people also don't tend to realize was that the manufacturers actually instilled a sort of compressor on the input stage just before the record heads. That's why the harder you pushed the more squished it would get before a total obliteration of distortion occurred. Printing hot tended to be the "in" thing to do. Each manufacturer had it's own type of process to this...hence some decks being a bit more favorable than others. I'll have to dig out some old literature that i had read many years ago relating this fact. Also what people tend to forget is that after that first run through of recording...the tape would tend to continuously begin to flake off! Thereby deteriorating the sound further. We would give the tape a fast forward/rewind run through twice just to get it "ready". You definitely didn't want to do 1000 passes on tape...so you did what you did and that's it. To top this off..if we stored that tape and came back to it ..umm 5- 7 years later...7 out of 10 times you had to actually bake the tape! That's right...you had to put it in the oven at a low temp in order to loosen up the glue they used to bind the metallic material to the tape. It was the norm.

Now with the advent of digital recording...All of these transients that no one had heard before became glaringly apparent. In the digital world it became "what you put in is what you get out". Not 100% true but much much closer than tape would have ever allowed you to get. So what happens? Well ...early on people would tend to forget about these untamed transients and just mix without making the proper adjustments for it. You would hear these mixes and just say..."Damn! Digital sucks...it sounds waaay to HARSH!" No it didn't suck...they just didn't make the adjustments! We all tended to mix and forget as if we were still doing it on tape. You needed to recreate all those faults for a pseudo "warm" mix. Hence the slew of tape saturation plug ins for our audio stations that are being made today. In all honesty you don't need them though. If you put your head to it...you can do it with simple eq'ing. You just have to think about what happened to your sound when it went through the tape heads. You lost high end....certain frequencies...emulate it through eq..and viola! Your very close. You just don't have that hiss. LOL.

So you see.... after years of listening to less than ideal processing on audio material, everyone freaked out. Those in the know..or those who later on did their due dilligence found out that sometimes one has to go backwards to go forwards.....

df

btw did yall know that half of those hip hop joints from the late 80's to 91/92 were done on those Tascam 8trk Cassette joints? Also the Akai 6 trk one too...goes to show ya...it's what's in ya head not the equipment.LMAO

[Sal Paradise]

Hey Mike,
the crowd wanted to hear all of this (hiphop), mixed with New Wave, Ska, Reggae and Punk... very raw and potent.

I'd love to hear what a set like this sounded like in the 80's. I add'd ze (hiphop) for clarity in qoute. Ever heard of one of these mixes getting recorded?

[Mike Barnes]

Francios, Good lookin with the information my man(Francios, I knew i remember you running more than a few hiphop plates, At Pipin's in the early 80's my man/LOL), Francios, Danny Krivitt(The Downunder), Reggie Wells(Justines), And, Larry Levan, Used to run more than a few hiphop plates too back in the early to mid 80's, Francios, What's funny to me is, I never heard Tee Scott run a hiphop plate(Not at Better Days,Zanzibar,Melons,Etc), My

Man/LOL, Francios, I know you, Larry Levan and Tee Scott, Were the best of friends, Francios, Do you know if Tee Scott had a distain for Hiphop my man/LOL, Because, Back in the late 70's to mid 80's, I've heard so many cats run Hiphop plates, On the New York Dance music circuit, But, Tee Scott,

Francios, Our friend, Dave Brockington/Rip, Used to do guest spots at Hiphop spots in the late 70's/Early 80's(Like, The Fantasia in Jamaica,Queens, And, The Disco Fever in the Bronx), And, Dave Brockington, Was mad crew with

Yourself,Larry Levan,Tee Scott,Walter Gibbons(Who i never heard mix live before, But, I've always heard very good things about, When it comes to Walter Gibbons rockin a spot allnight, To the morning lite).
Much Respect
Mike Barnes

[djmarbll]

Please let me know when you find out what software (as you say) plays the music. I'm keenly interested....

I was under the impression that if I wanted to have someone play a piano solo today, they still needed to play it,
and would want to get paid for the session. Well, that was thinking that humans were still the ones creating the
music, and all that.

Unless you know something I don't.

Please let me know via PM if you ever find out how to get piano solos (or any other instruments) from any machine
or software.



O RLY ??

I understand you have good intentions, but these types of statements you are making are fairly inaccurate at best,
and at worst helpful in highlighting that while you may have a respectable and endearing philosophy about analog
and digital sound, you appear (to me at least) to know very little about these topics from your own actual and personal
experience, more likely from second-hand information you've gleaned via people whose opinions you respect, but
which has somehow sadly gotten distorted along the way each time it got passed on, until it is hardly recognizable.

I realize that passing on and helping perpetuate these inaccuracies is all too common these days, but I don't think
that it makes it OK for anyone of us to do so unchallenged, else we are inviting a culture of increasing mediocrity
and urban legends that may one day, - and if repeated enough times - pass for reality.

For the sake of accuracy, please allow me to make suggestions as to what you might have considered saying instead:



The kicker being of course that all of this analog-loving and live-worshipping information is being shared over the ultimate
distributed digital network (i.e.: Teh Internets). That should in itself be a living proof than rather than focusing on the
method of delivery (digital network versus sending letters to each other in the mail) we should all be concerned about the
level and quality of musicianship and songwriting, not the way in which we create and exchange that information.

But as always, it might just be time to whip out the Marshall McLuhan quote again, that "The Medium Is The Message".

Which I wonder if I agree with anymore. Love being the message I have no problem with. Whichever way you choose to
deliver it is OK by me. Digital love, analog love. It'll still be love.

Love,

FK

Thanks for clarifying my statement to an extent. As a professional musician, I can tell you for a fact that a majority of new music I hear on the radio is NOT done by live musicians in the studio, which is what I meant by that statement. Sorry if that wasn't clear. In addition, I've shared the stage with guys whose whole show was programmed from his laptop. You can check Jeff Bujak, for example. As producers, I know that you and Dennis F. know that you are not using live drummers, keyboard players, horn sections, guitar players, and bass players, to make every song you record.. My point was that machines like the SP-12, SP-1200, MPC 60, MPC 60 II, MPC 3000, MPC 4000, ASR-10, EPS-16, Fruity Loops, Reason, Cubase, and many other pieces of hardware and software have made it more readily accessible for people who aren't even musicians to be able to make hit records.

As far as older analog outboard gear like Pultec, Avalon, or whatever, half the studios I've recorded production work and live drums in don't even exist anymore, much less have vintage gear like that. Wyclef's studio on 46th and 9th was the last studio I did work in that had that kind of gear. Clef's engineer told me that because much of the vintage stuff is available as plug-ins, guys aren't trying to find that kind of gear if they can get software that can emulate it. And after working in the studio with Clef, Jerry "Wonder" Duplessis, Kanye West, Lupe Fiasco, NOID, Wildstyle, DJ Quik (who's a fierce analog loyalist, lol), and Carlisle Young (50 Cent's engineer), they all love the analog gear, but are willing to and have used plug-ins when they've needed to.

[djmarbll]

Martin...

Tape is notoriously faulty. It was sort of dependent upon the quality of 2" machine the manufacturer developed AND the technology that was available, within a pricing reality, at the time. Studer A80's tended to be the one's i came across more often than not in most high end places. Before those I would see 3M's...some Sony APR's later in the game..and the entry level Otari's. Tape had a distinctive roll off on the high end. Giving it a sort of smoothing feature to harsh/high transient peaks. What people also don't tend to realize was that the manufacturers actually instilled a sort of compressor on the input stage just before the record heads. That's why the harder you pushed the more squished it would get before a total obliteration of distortion occurred. Printing hot tended to be the "in" thing to do. Each manufacturer had it's own type of process to this...hence some decks being a bit more favorable than others. I'll have to dig out some old literature that i had read many years ago relating this fact. Also what people tend to forget is that after that first run through of recording...the tape would tend to continuously begin to flake off! Thereby deteriorating the sound further. We would give the tape a fast forward/rewind run through twice just to get it "ready". You definitely didn't want to do 1000 passes on tape...so you did what you did and that's it. To top this off..if we stored that tape and came back to it ..umm 5- 7 years later...7 out of 10 times you had to actually bake the tape! That's right...you had to put it in the oven at a low temp in order to loosen up the glue they used to bind the metallic material to the tape. It was the norm.

Now with the advent of digital recording...All of these transients that no one had heard before became glaringly apparent. In the digital world it became "what you put in is what you get out". Not 100% true but much much closer than tape would have ever allowed you to get. So what happens? Well ...early on people would tend to forget about these untamed transients and just mix without making the proper adjustments for it. You would hear these mixes and just say..."Damn! Digital sucks...it sounds waaay to HARSH!" No it didn't suck...they just didn't make the adjustments! We all tended to mix and forget as if we were still doing it on tape. You needed to recreate all those faults for a pseudo "warm" mix. Hence the slew of tape saturation plug ins for our audio stations that are being made today. In all honesty you don't need them though. If you put your head to it...you can do it with simple eq'ing. You just have to think about what happened to your sound when it went through the tape heads. You lost high end....certain frequencies...emulate it through eq..and viola! Your very close. You just don't have that hiss. LOL.

So you see.... after years of listening to less than ideal processing on audio material, everyone freaked out. Those in the know..or those who later on did their due dilligence found out that sometimes one has to go backwards to go forwards.....

df

btw did yall know that half of those hip hop joints from the late 80's to 91/92 were done on those Tascam 8trk Cassette joints? Also the Akai 6 trk one too...goes to show ya...it's what's in ya head not the equipment.LMAO

But Dennis F., weren't those Tascam machines quarter-inch analog tape? I heard Dr. Dre record the Chronic on an 8-track machine, which do have tendency to get muddy, but they made the drums really kick, lol.