Gays vs Blacks = Flag Wars [Archive] - Deep House Page Forums

HML

06-17-2003, 12:18 PM

Tonight, on your local PBS station, an extremely interesting documentary will air. Flag Wars tells the story of gentrification* occurring in a Columbus, Ohio neighborhood. High-income gay people, known to have much economic clout, are buying up homes in a traditionally Black area. Long-time residents are understandably incensed by what they see as a "takeover".

I've got strong feelings on this one, but I'll reserve my comments until I educate myself a little more by viewing the documentary. Is anyone else going to check this out? If so, let's discuss further after watching!

For more info click HERE (http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2003/flagwars/)

* gentrification - The restoration and upgrading of deteriorated urban property by middle-class or affluent people, often resulting in displacement of lower-income people.

[ June 17, 2003, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: HML ]

Koffy Brown

06-17-2003, 12:20 PM

I will definitely watch...thanks for posting

06-17-2003, 12:24 PM

yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm?

06-17-2003, 01:07 PM

...ya dont have to be from Chi for it
to sound familiar......RX

If I may so humbly add, f*ck TV and live ya life, and you'll educate yourself from first hand experience....

And

06-17-2003, 04:01 PM

Just reading this about it already has me seeing how this could be such a complicated issue for both sides ... I hope I have access to a t.v. @ 10, I'd like to watch this.

About the show:

P.O.V.: Flag Wars (#1601)

Shot over four years, Bryant and Poitras' "Flag Wars" is a poignant account of competing economic interests between two historically oppressed groups seen through the politics and pain of gentrification.

The setting could be anywhere - a city center with a formerly middle-class black community which is now economically depressed and being gentrified - in this case by white gay home-buyers interested in restoring the magnificent old homes. This story takes place in Columbus, Ohio. The black residents, working-class or poor and often elderly, fight to hold on to their homes and heritage. Realtors and gay home-buyers see the enormous, often run-down homes as fixer- uppers. The inevitable clashes expose prejudice and self-interest on both sides, as well as the common dream to have a home to call your own.

Both provocative and elegiac, "Flag Wars" is a candid, unvarnished portrait of privilege, poverty, and local politics taking place across America.

Web Site: P.O.V.: Flag Wars

Program Length: 1 hr. 30 mins.

Show all airtimes on all WETA channels

M3taPhsX

06-17-2003, 04:15 PM

I don't know why it is pointed out that this is gay gentrification as opposed to just plain ole gentrification. The bottom line is it's all about the cash.

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 06:24 AM

This was very interesting, disturbing and left me with mixed feelings .. did anyone else watch?

06-18-2003, 06:48 AM

couldn't find p.o.v. on my tv...turned to pbs, but nova was on about the german u-boat found of the coast of jersey...decided to watch it because i started thinking how my life has been so saturated with issues like the one i am trying to avoid on television...

without watching it, could i have come up with the storyline anyways? more than likely...it may have not been made for me, then...maybe it's for my neighbors...maybe i should've told them it's on...

gays vs. blacks sounds like bridgeport: latino vs. black...i'm saddened...

lola desire

06-18-2003, 07:39 AM

Originally posted by M3taPhsX:
I don't know why it is pointed out that this is gay gentrification as opposed to just plain ole gentrification. The bottom line is it's all about the cash. it has been shown that gays tend to have a larger disposable income than heterosexuals. this is understandables since heterosexuals, more often, tend to have children/families.

darrow

06-18-2003, 07:42 AM

I watched it in the wee hours of the morning (it's insomnia time!) on tape. Random thoughts as I was watching and after it was over...

Props to those guys (or any homeowner) who takes on huge fixer-upper projects. A couple of those houses were a mess. To fix them up not only takes money, but some serious emotional and time commitment. And here I thought I had a fixer upper.

The trials/tribulations of the lady with the liver problem were the most disturbing to me. While the court system focused on her housing code violations, her health continued to fail and there seemed to be no real mechanism in place to deal with that. I did get the sense that the judge dealing with her case was trying very hard to be firm yet give her lots of opportunities to get things taken care of. He seemed torn between being compassionate and being a firm administrator. I'm still sorting out my feelings and reactions to the slice of her life. Thoughts like...What was her responsibility in terms of taking care of business? What's the city's responsibility to make sure people like her don't fall through the cracks? How did things get so bad for her and that house?

I wondered if the film is an accurate portrayal of what is going on in that neighborhood in Columbus (it was Columbus, right?). Are the new comers truly mainly gay men and lesbians or was that simply the intended focus of the film?

One of the new comers, a white male, in conversation with his friends expressed his philosophy as something like ...if you don't want to renovate your home, don't live in it. I got pissed when I heard that statement. He clearly did not understand that for many of those residents, it's not a matter of choosing to fix up their homes. For some if not most, it is not economically possible. I do wonder whether his philosophy is one that many new-comers to those types of neighborhoods hold.

You didn't see any real dialog between the white gay men and the other residents except for a scene where someone was trying to get an old-time resident to sign a petition. If it is the case that these neighbors don't talk to each other, that's unfortunate. Too many assumptions about the motives of someone else are too easily made without an real dialog and all that seems to happen is that people continue to misunderstand each other.

I live on a small two block street in Shaw, a predominantly black neighborhood in dc that has much more than it's share of crime, drugs, and homeless. My street, oddly enough, is about 45% white gay males (mainly couples) who own their homes. After watching the film, I'm wondering what sort of thoughts they and the long-time residents had about the arrival of these men. They've been there a while...10 to 12 years. That's actually pretty pioneering for that neighborhood during those days.

It was sad to see the ravaging effects on what was probably once a beautiful neighborhood for blacks. It was even harder to see non-blacks more or less reaping the benefits of the blight on those neighborhoods. But again...I just ended up asking more questions...not blaming. Where's the black middle class in Columbus? Is there one? Are there blacks ALSO buying these homes or is the trend that blacks are still fleeing to the suburbs?

Ok...enough for now.

Leslie

06-18-2003, 07:53 AM

Darrow - on point!!

I became angry when they showed the funeral of the woman who had the liver problems. Outside of the community activist, where was the rest of her family helping her when she needed it. You never saw them when they showed scenes from the hospital, or when she was in court - again, we don't know the background information and her relationships with people.

I agree the judge was conflicted and tried - this was a hopeless situation. I also found it interesting that once she died, they swooped in on that house like vultures - I would love to know what has become of it since the filming.

As far as the white gay male's opinion about if youdon't want to fix up your house don't live in it - perfect example to the divide that exists between white and black and the access to capital of any means in this country. As the older folks who were sitting around the table eating and discussing what was going on around them, they don't have people or the means to just drop money on the spot - banks don't lend to people in these neighborhoods and when they do the interest rate in astronomical. In addition these people are not educated in the nuances of working the system.

I came away from the program feeling that in less than 10 years that will be an all white neighborhood, unless the black folks of means come back and claim those houses. The gentleman that spoke had a point, you put us over here in the first place cause you didn't want us living near you and now you want to take it back! It made me angry to a degree.

darrow

06-18-2003, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by Leslie:
Darrow - on point!!

I became angry when they showed the funeral of the woman who had the liver problems. Outside of the community activist, where was the rest of her family helping her when she needed it. You never saw them when they showed scenes from the hospital, or when she was in court - again, we don't know the background information and her relationships with people.

I agree the judge was conflicted and tried - this was a hopeless situation. I also found it interesting that once she died, they swooped in on that house like vultures - I would love to know what has become of it since the filming.

As far as the white gay male's opinion about if youdon't want to fix up your house don't live in it - perfect example to the divide that exists between white and black and the access to capital of any means in this country. As the older folks who were sitting around the table eating and discussing what was going on around them, they don't have people or the means to just drop money on the spot - banks don't lend to people in these neighborhoods and when they do the interest rate in astronomical. In addition these people are not educated in the nuances of working the system.

I came away from the program feeling that in less than 10 years that will be an all white neighborhood, unless the black folks of means come back and claim those houses. The gentleman that spoke had a point, you put us over here in the first place cause you didn't want us living near you and now you want to take it back! It made me angry to a degree. Yeah, it was very interesting that those people brought to tears in the church did not seem to be present at other times. Artistic license or reality?

People were on that house QUICK. I noticed that it was white gay men being filmed checking out the house. So I'm thinking...daayyummm! does ANYBODY else buy in that neighborhood???

I was also angry in the end, but then I started thinking about my own situation. Am I seen as a gentrifier? I bought a house in need of fixing up and you can bet I'm pricing that sucker wisely and competitively when it's time to sell. Am I a component of the same sort of problem of displacement? hmmm.

Fletch

06-18-2003, 08:34 AM

Forcing people to "maintain the exterior of their home". So much for the First Amendment.

The "logic" is if one person has a shabby house, then a potintial buyer for the house next door may shy away, saying, "oh, this must be a bad neighborhood". Real estate values will decline as a result.

Leslie

06-18-2003, 08:37 AM

It can be a double edged sword to some degree - but to that end I am glad to see people such as yourself and other friends of mine who are going and and buying up either abandoned or badly neglected properties and fixing them up and either flipping them or using them for long term investment properties (definitely something in my long term personal plan). There is always going to be gentrification and displacement and it will always be those who will understand and know how to use the system as it is to their advantage - the difference being now the information is readily available for those who choose to seek it out or ask. Educating people, especially non-whites as to the advantages of home ownership, upkeep, and potential monetary and tax benefits is the only solution, in addition to banks stopping predatory lending, redlining, and all other forms of racist non-lending practices to save these neighbohoods.

Your question in the begining rings true - where is the black middle-class of Columbus, Ohio in all of this? I cannot believe that they do not see or have a vested interest in what is going on. But we only know what was shown to us.

Fletch

06-18-2003, 08:38 AM

Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Yeah, it was very interesting that those people brought to tears in the church did not seem to be present at other times. Artistic license or reality?

People were on that house QUICK. I noticed that it was white gay men being filmed checking out the house. So I'm thinking...daayyummm! does ANYBODY else buy in that neighborhood???

I was also angry in the end, but then I started thinking about my own situation. Am I seen as a gentrifier? I bought a house in need of fixing up and you can bet I'm pricing that sucker wisely and competitively when it's time to sell. Am I a component of the same sort of problem of displacement? hmmm. [/QB][/QUOTE]You have a home. You do what you have to do. However, it is the system that allows the process at the expense of people who have little or no say (economically, politically). That is the problem. Peace.

lola desire

06-18-2003, 08:42 AM

upkeep and community preservation can save some of these communities from becoming regentrified. unfortunately many of the people who own homes (even though they would be concidered middle class) live check to check.

part of me says that if you want to keep your home you've got to keep it up, especially now. you don't necessarily have to rennovate it, but at least keep it up. it was tough when i owned my house, some guy ended up buying it off me and doing renovations.

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 08:48 AM

what I found to be most interesting is how true racism is ignored and to me the racism was with the banking system. Who is to say that the people in the neighborhood didn't want to fix up their homes? Like the older gentleman said, the banks won't lend them the amount of money to make it happen...How many in that neighborhood had 30,000 at their disposal? This is what needs to be focused on. I think that the gay people that were buying in the neighborhood were opportunists. I would bet that none of them paid over $50,000 for their homes, I know they put money into it, but they found cheap housing and really let's be truthful they wanted to get rid of those that didn't fit into their little economic category...

Remember the scene when they were having the meeting because of the crimes that took place, what was being said about the "N" word...they didn't focus on that much, huh?

Also, like Ms. Mitchell said, who in the hell do they think they are, just coming in wanting to take what is not theirs. It was sad what they put that woman through. Why didn't nonprofit organizations help her earlier....

I don't know I'm still processing it...

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 08:50 AM

Originally posted by Leslie:

Your question in the begining rings true - where is the black middle-class of Columbus, Ohio in all of this? I cannot believe that they do not see or have a vested interest in what is going on. But we only know what was shown to us. The whole time I was thinking...

WHERE ARE THE CHURCHES IN THESE NEIGHBORHOODS???

Leslie

06-18-2003, 09:01 AM

I agree they are opportunits and if you remember when the two guys were sitting on the front steps they pretty much admitted it. To paraphrase what they said - they said that gays go into these "bad" neighborhoods and see what "others" don't see in these run down buildings.

True, where were these non-profit outfits earlier to help her with the upkeep of the house - or extended family where in the world were they? Again, we only know what we were shown.

D J 1 3 8

06-18-2003, 09:06 AM

I got to see most of it.

I too wanted to see more dialogue between the gay community and the black community, because it wasn't clear if they really had an adversarial relationship or not. It seemed as though the film maker might have set that up as her dichotomy.

It also wasn't clear to me that the gay community had anything to do with the neighborhood being designated as landmarked, which seemed to be the root of a lot of the zoning problems that the lower income families were facing.

As for the whereabouts of the black middle class, if they are anything like most middle classes of any race, the first thing they do when they get some loot is move out to the suburbs.

Gentrification is a complicated issue. It's really happening in my neighborhood right now. I'm white and I moved in there (Fort Greene) 15 years ago, so I don't feel like a gentrifier, yet my building has seen every black family move out in the last 5 years, and the only reason I haven't had to move is that my income can support the rent increases (which have been dramatic).

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
I got to see most of it.

As for the whereabouts of the black middle class, if they are anything like most middle classes of any race, the first thing they do when they get some loot is move out to the suburbs.

This is gospel!!

mhd

06-18-2003, 09:11 AM

darrow, what street do you live on in Shaw?

06-18-2003, 09:20 AM

From DJ 138

>>I'm white

This explains why you dont understand any of my comments!......

Didnt see any of it, Thank God. Now let's see if I can hit the nail on the head wit dis Black N Decker, somebody is getting took because they dont have the economic platform to meet societies cannons of repudiablity, or as Thorstein Veblen stated eons ago, "under modern conditions the struggle for existence has, in a very appreciable degree, been transformed into a struggle to keep up appearances. The ultimate ground of this struggle to keep up appearance by otherwise unnecessary expenditure, is the institution of private property.".....i think he wrote that in 1919, am I close......thought so.....

darrow

06-18-2003, 09:25 AM

Originally posted by DJ 138:

It also wasn't clear to me that the gay community had anything to do with the neighborhood being designated as landmarked, which seemed to be the root of a lot of the zoning problems that the lower income families were facing.

As for the whereabouts of the black middle class, if they are anything like most middle classes of any race, the first thing they do when they get some loot is move out to the suburbs.

I think you are right about the timing of the zoning laws. It seemed like the zoning stuff happened much earlier on. Those new comers didn't seem like they had been there that long.

On suburban flight...Prince Georges County MD, right outside of DC, is one of the wealthiest majority-black counties in the nation. Lots of former DC black residents have bought homes out there. It would be interesting to see if there is any trend regarding them moving back. I lived in PG County from 94 to 98 and got tired of the burbs real quick. It's a shame that more don't move back and take advantage of the homes here (and the shorter commutes to work).

I agree that the guys in the film were opportunists but in their scenario, I see little wrong with making the best of investment opportunities. Hell, if I had more money and I knew of cheap-but-potentially-valuable property in this area, I'd be on it too.

I wonder if the issues that stop families (parents w/kids) from moving to these neighborhoods and investing in property are things like...

- time/energy commitment to fixing up a house
- crime statistics (dont want your kids in high crime areas)
- public school quality issues

Is it reasonable to believe that single people of any sexual orientation would have a easier time dealing with those things thus are more likely to move into "at risk" neighborhoods and invest?

darrow

06-18-2003, 09:28 AM

Originally posted by mhd:
darrow, what street do you live on in Shaw? Marion Street. I'm a block from Shaw/Howard Metro. One block east of Rhode Island NW and 7th NW. It's a great street. It's sort of an oddity because 6th and 7th, which it runs parallel to and between, can be sketchy at times. I've definitely witnessed plenty of drug deals while walking the dog. Drives me crazy.

D J 1 3 8

06-18-2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by Hk:
From DJ 138

>>I'm white

This explains why you dont understand any of my comments!......

:D

M3taPhsX

06-18-2003, 09:44 AM

This show exposed alot of ugliness in all sides. I would say the most disturbing were most of the blacks interviewed hatred for homosexuals.

Leslie

06-18-2003, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by M3taPhsX:
This show exposed alot of ugliness in all sides. I would say the most disturbing were most of the blacks interviewed hatred for homosexuals. The Blacks????

What about the preacher who was openly targeting the gays and had his kids out there with two ken dolls attached in a sexual position hanging from a noose and holding them up and hitting them with a stick at a rally???

We must have watching two different programs for you to single out the blacks as being the most intolerant of the gay community....

darrow

06-18-2003, 09:55 AM

Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by M3taPhsX:
This show exposed alot of ugliness in all sides. I would say the most disturbing were most of the blacks interviewed hatred for homosexuals. The Blacks????

What about the preacher who was openly targeting the gays and had his kids out there with two ken dolls attached in a sexual position hanging from a noose and holding them up and hitting them with a stick at a rally???

We must have watching two different programs for you to single out the blacks as being the most intolerant of the gay community.... [/QUOTE]and did you see the hatred on the kids' faces (like the kid doing the thumbs-down sign)? that was DEEP.

Leslie

06-18-2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by darrow:
[
and did you see the hatred on the kids' faces (like the kid doing the thumbs-down sign)? that was DEEP. [/QB]You could tell they were getting DRILLED at home by their father on how to behave - and you know it was only one step away from us....

D J 1 3 8

06-18-2003, 09:59 AM

The film maker definitely showed the Klan rally and the anti-gay protesters to make the simple point that both gays and blacks face similar hatred and discriminiation. Sort of a "shouldn't y'all be on the same side?"

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by M3taPhsX:
This show exposed alot of ugliness in all sides. I would say the most disturbing were most of the blacks interviewed hatred for homosexuals. hmmmmmmm......

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 10:02 AM

did you all see the little boy with the 2 male dolls together in a sexual position with the noose around his neck...now that was sick...

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 10:03 AM

I didn't understand the whole deal with the Yoruba brotha with the sign on his house vs. the man with the flags...what was up with this...

M3taPhsX

06-18-2003, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by M3taPhsX:
This show exposed alot of ugliness in all sides. I would say the most disturbing were most of the blacks interviewed hatred for homosexuals. The Blacks????

What about the preacher who was openly targeting the gays and had his kids out there with two ken dolls attached in a sexual position hanging from a noose and holding them up and hitting them with a stick at a rally???

We must have watching two different programs for you to single out the blacks as being the most intolerant of the gay community.... [/QUOTE]The white people there were extremists they tour around to harrass gay people. The black people were everday people from the neighborhood. That is why I found it most disturbing. Such hatred comming from ther mouth when they should understand oppresion out of all people in America.

[ June 18, 2003, 11:05 AM: Message edited by: M3taPhsX ]

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 10:04 AM

and while I'm thinking, if the gays that moved into the community were sooooooo concerned about the community, why didn't they help ms. mitchell get her house up to code....yea....mmm hmmm they wanted her along with the others out of the community. What about them trying to close down the corner store? I agree, most corner stores should be closed but exactly what was their MO...

SHEIK YERBOUTI

06-18-2003, 10:08 AM

Question: Since I didn't see the show, can I ask a question?

Was the black reaction due to the gentrifiers being gay or due to the people already living there fearing being displaced?

Seems like this situation was more a function of class than sexuality or race. Obviously of course, BOTH race AND sexuality played a part as well.

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
Question: Since I didn't see the show, can I ask a question?

Was the black reaction due to the gentrifiers being gay or due to the people already living there fearing being displaced?

Seems like this situation was more a function of class than sexuality or race. Obviously of course, BOTH race AND sexuality played a part as well. My observation was as far as the Blacks who already lived in the neighborhood for generations it was the fear of being displaced...

I don't care what anyone says as far as the gays moving into the neighborhood, for some it was race and others class...

rob gregory

06-18-2003, 10:13 AM

Peace.

I didn't see the show.

Were there any black gays trying to move into the neighborhood?

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by PhoreAyem:
Peace.

I didn't see the show.

Were there any black gays trying to move into the neighborhood? I don't recall any...

Leslie

06-18-2003, 10:17 AM

Originally posted by PhoreAyem:
Peace.

I didn't see the show.

Were there any black gays trying to move into the neighborhood? They only showed white male and female gays.

D J 1 3 8

06-18-2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Ashaki:
I didn't understand the whole deal with the Yoruba brotha with the sign on his house vs. the man with the flags...what was up with this... The issue was flags were legal (as far as the zoning laws), while attaching a sign to your house was not. I didn't catch all of the legal back and forth, but it seemed like, in the end, he proved that he had the sign up before the laws changed, so the city let him keep it. A small victory, I suppose.

SHEIK YERBOUTI

06-18-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PhoreAyem:
Peace.

I didn't see the show.

Were there any black gays trying to move into the neighborhood? They only showed white male and female gays. [/QUOTE]AHA! Now that's a little thing I've been wondering about.

Edit: Come to think of it, I AM NOT trying to start any crap. Just a random thought. Took it out.

[ June 18, 2003, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: toomuchtv ]

djmarbll

06-18-2003, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm? Sounds dangerously familiar as the same thing is happening in Cabrini-Green, which is now considered the west loop area now that the "Negroes" are leaving and the affluent class is moving in.

mhd

06-18-2003, 10:36 AM

Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
darrow, what street do you live on in Shaw? Marion Street. I'm a block from Shaw/Howard Metro. One block east of Rhode Island NW and 7th NW. It's a great street. It's sort of an oddity because 6th and 7th, which it runs parallel to and between, can be sketchy at times. I've definitely witnessed plenty of drug deals while walking the dog. Drives me crazy. [/QUOTE]gotcha, you are a very lucky man, with a very valuable property, and yes you are a participant in gentrification, the principal element is the displacement of poor people. but here is the upside, you mentioned PG COunty, that is likely where they migrated to, after a brief stint in southeast where the cycle will be repeated. The upside is more and more population growth in PG which will shift the power base more and more in the entire state of Maryland to PG County.

mhd

06-18-2003, 10:36 AM

rob gregory

06-18-2003, 10:37 AM

darrow

06-18-2003, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
darrow, what street do you live on in Shaw? Marion Street. I'm a block from Shaw/Howard Metro. One block east of Rhode Island NW and 7th NW. It's a great street. It's sort of an oddity because 6th and 7th, which it runs parallel to and between, can be sketchy at times. I've definitely witnessed plenty of drug deals while walking the dog. Drives me crazy. [/QUOTE]gotcha, you are a very lucky man, with a very valuable property, and yes you are a participant in gentrification, the principal element is the displacement of poor people. but here is the upside, you mentioned PG COunty, that is likely where they migrated to, after a brief stint in southeast where the cycle will be repeated. The upside is more and more population growth in PG which will shift the power base more and more in the entire state of Maryland to PG County. [/QUOTE]aahh...a VERY good point. It would be great to see some power shift to PG. The biggest issue I had living there was the lack of just about anything (I was in ft. washington) - decent services, retail, public transportation, etc. I was amazed that I was living in an area that seemed to have lots of people with money but yet still little service.

SHEIK YERBOUTI

06-18-2003, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm? Sounds dangerously familiar as the same thing is happening in Cabrini-Green, which is now considered the west loop area now that the "Negroes" are leaving and the affluent class is moving in. [/QUOTE]Urban renewal = Negro Removal.

Ain't a damn thing changed.

Does this even happen to white communities?

Then again, I do remember a part of a local white neighborhood here in PGH being razed so the city could build a freeway so the MORE AFFLUENT white population from the burbs could get in AND OUT of the city faster.

Maybe it is mostly CLASS.

mhd

06-18-2003, 10:47 AM

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm? Sounds dangerously familiar as the same thing is happening in Cabrini-Green, which is now considered the west loop area now that the "Negroes" are leaving and the affluent class is moving in. [/QUOTE]Urban renewal = Negro Removal.

Ain't a damn thing changed.

Does this even happen to white communities?

Then again, I do remember a part of a local white neighborhood here in PGH being razed so the city could build a freeway so the MORE AFFLUENT white population from the burbs could get in AND OUT of the city faster.

Maybe it is mostly CLASS. [/QUOTE]the way it happened with whites was called "white flight" in the 60s. after the civil rights victories, blacks were allowed to live anywhere, so when blacks moved in white neighborhoods, whites ran like crazy to the suburbs.
another important point, be careful when you refer to place as a "black" neighborhood, that really only applies to recent history in many cases

darrow

06-18-2003, 10:55 AM

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm? Sounds dangerously familiar as the same thing is happening in Cabrini-Green, which is now considered the west loop area now that the "Negroes" are leaving and the affluent class is moving in. [/QUOTE]Urban renewal = Negro Removal.

Ain't a damn thing changed.

Does this even happen to white communities?

Then again, I do remember a part of a local white neighborhood here in PGH being razed so the city could build a freeway so the MORE AFFLUENT white population from the burbs could get in AND OUT of the city faster.

Maybe it is mostly CLASS. [/QUOTE]One thing that is happening here in dc is that there is an eastward migration/displacement happening. Business-lease costs, rental housing costs, and non-rental costs seem to be driving people of all races/sexualities slowly towards my neighborhood and beyond it. An example...Dupont Circle area has been traditionally thought of as a white-gay area but articles over the past year or two have been written that discuss how property prices are changing that dynamic. That population is moving eastward (and the amount of development eastward has been amazing). My neighborhood is in the path of that eastward movement, about 7 blocks away.

D J 1 3 8

06-18-2003, 10:58 AM

Originally posted by toomuchtv:

Does this even happen to white communities?
Gentrification is happening to basically all of lower Manhatan and it has effected Jews, Italians, Irish, Chinese, Latinos, and of course, black folks too.

Ashaki could probably tell you more about this, but the last time I was in Cincinnati (years ago) I noticed that a great deal of the ghetto downtown ("Over The Rhine" - named so because it was originaly populated by German immigrants) was being gentrified. Though Over The Rhine is predominantly black, there were always parts of it that were very poor Appalachian white folks as well. Assuming that this gebtrification is continuing, it would affect both whites and blacks.

IMO, gentrification is mostly about class and economics and not about race. However, in urban areas, the result is almost always black folks being displaced.

M3taPhsX

06-18-2003, 10:58 AM

djmarbll

06-18-2003, 11:20 AM

Originally posted by PhoreAyem:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm? Sounds dangerously familiar as the same thing is happening in Cabrini-Green, which is now considered the west loop area now that the "Negroes" are leaving and the affluent class is moving in. [/QUOTE]In the case of Cabrini-Green, where are the blacks that are leaving going? To another poor area or is there a percentage of upward mobility? [/QUOTE]As for Cabrini-Green, I'm not sure where they're sending the former residents. I wouldn't doubt if it was where they're sending the Robert-Taylor residents -- areas like Ford Heights, Chicago Heights, Harvey, and Dolton. What has happened in neigborhoods in America throught the past 30 or so years is actually moving in reverse now. Whites would move to suburbs as their financial position (white flight) moved up to get further away from the "inner city", while Blacks were highly concentrated in "urban" areas or the "inner city". Now whites are moving back to the city often in the same areas that were considered ghettoes as recent as 3 years ago, while blacks are getting vouchers to move to certain suburbs (I have yet to see a Chicago Housing Authority (C.H.A.) voucher with Olympia Fields, Wilmette, Barrington, Oak Park, Lake Forest, or even Bronzeville or Chatham on it). What is happening is that the concept of the urban ghetto won't be considered the "inner city" but the suburbs where the concentration of lower-to-middle class blacks is highest. Ironically, the term ghetto was initally apllied toward the high geographical living concentration of European Jews who had migrated to America in the 1930s, 40s and 50s and were taking jobs from the immigrant Irish, Germans, and Italians who had migrated to America in droves years earlier. Now the term ghetto is almost always associated with blacks or Latinos.

djmarbll

06-18-2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by M3taPhsX:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PhoreAyem:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm? Sounds dangerously familiar as the same thing is happening in Cabrini-Green, which is now considered the west loop area now that the "Negroes" are leaving and the affluent class is moving in. [/QUOTE]In the case of Cabrini-Green, where are the blacks that are leaving going? To another poor area or is there a percentage of upward mobility? [/QUOTE]Many people from Cabrini-Green are moving to my hometown of Bloomington, IL. It is growing town with alot of opportunity. The problem I am hearing is that there has been alot of criminal activity from these transplants. [/QUOTE]Are you talking about Bloomington-Normal, where Illinois State University is? That's interesting.

M3taPhsX

06-18-2003, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by M3taPhsX:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by PhoreAyem:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm? Sounds dangerously familiar as the same thing is happening in Cabrini-Green, which is now considered the west loop area now that the "Negroes" are leaving and the affluent class is moving in. [/QUOTE]In the case of Cabrini-Green, where are the blacks that are leaving going? To another poor area or is there a percentage of upward mobility? [/QUOTE]Many people from Cabrini-Green are moving to my hometown of Bloomington, IL. It is growing town with alot of opportunity. The problem I am hearing is that there has been alot of criminal activity from these transplants. [/QUOTE]Are you talking about Bloomington-Normal, where Illinois State University is? That's interesting. [/QUOTE]Yep that's it.

mhd

06-18-2003, 11:50 AM

Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by toomuchtv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm? Sounds dangerously familiar as the same thing is happening in Cabrini-Green, which is now considered the west loop area now that the "Negroes" are leaving and the affluent class is moving in. [/QUOTE]Urban renewal = Negro Removal.

Ain't a damn thing changed.

Does this even happen to white communities?

Then again, I do remember a part of a local white neighborhood here in PGH being razed so the city could build a freeway so the MORE AFFLUENT white population from the burbs could get in AND OUT of the city faster.

Maybe it is mostly CLASS. [/QUOTE]One thing that is happening here in dc is that there is an eastward migration/displacement happening. Business-lease costs, rental housing costs, and non-rental costs seem to be driving people of all races/sexualities slowly towards my neighborhood and beyond it. An example...Dupont Circle area has been traditionally thought of as a white-gay area but articles over the past year or two have been written that discuss how property prices are changing that dynamic. That population is moving eastward (and the amount of development eastward has been amazing). My neighborhood is in the path of that eastward movement, about 7 blocks away. [/QUOTE]Ever heard of "The Plan"?

darrow

06-18-2003, 12:05 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
Ever heard of "The Plan"? I think so...is that the plan to revitalize parts of dc back in the 50s or 60s? Wasn't it referenced as the Negro Removal plan by critics? Seems like I heard reference to it when they talked about shutting down DC General.

06-18-2003, 12:11 PM

the quest to move cha residents to suburbs have be in effect since i was a shawtee and i'm sure even before...i am a product of cha and i do remember in great detail project folk (because at that time, white folk lived there, too) being sent to the northwest suburbs and them jacking the gas prices up so no one would be able to afford the trek back...however, these suburbs were not decrepid ones - these were affluent, but the "affluent ones" wanted chi for themselves...

project folk WANTED to move out there because they believed their children would get better educations, but they had no idea that once they moved out there, all of the funding would stop...

Moksha

06-18-2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:
yo, chi...sound familiar? hmmm? Sounds dangerously familiar as the same thing is happening in Cabrini-Green, which is now considered the west loop area now that the "Negroes" are leaving and the affluent class is moving in. [/QUOTE]Urban renewal = Negro Removal.

Ain't a damn thing changed.

Does this even happen to white communities?

Then again, I do remember a part of a local white neighborhood here in PGH being razed so the city could build a freeway so the MORE AFFLUENT white population from the burbs could get in AND OUT of the city faster.

Maybe it is mostly CLASS. [/QUOTE]In NYC, gentrification is not as simple as black and white. From SoHo to the East Village to Williamsburg, gentrification is based more around class (though the hoods were originally more specific to particular immigrants: German, Russian, etc.)

julian_kelly

06-18-2003, 01:10 PM

0I didnt see the tv special but I can relate to it from first hand experience. I'm a real estate investor and for the past few years have come across tons of gay individuals buying homes in black urban areas. The people who have lived in the areas for years are forced out for many reasons. Sometimes code violations, sometimes because the market value increases and they simply cant afford the property taxes. There is definitely a rift...not necessarily because the people are gay, but because they are losing their homes.

I've talked to many gay people on a one on one basis and asked them "Why this (black) neighborhood?" and I've gotten many answers. Many of them felt comfortable in black neighborhoods; they liked the seclusion from 'judging individuals' that it provided. Some like the historical feel of the urban neighborhood versus the suburbs. But the primary reason is cost. When you can get a house for 40k and have it appreciate 300% in a short period of time, its a nobrainer.

Real estate investors are savy business people and can predict trends. If you can do market analysis and predict living trends, you can make a killing. The HUGE trend now is affordable housing....providing homes in the $100k range and below....(also read: buy homes in black neighborhoods that are rundown...fix them up...sell them at and affordable price and make cheeze.) Its amazing now how many realtors I see running to the black neighborhood to do business whereas three years they wouldnt have touched the area with a ten foot pole. Middle class white people and gays move in the neighborhood and the values skyrocket.

Prices in the affordable housing range vary from state to state. All the top guns are getting into affordable housing because of tax cuts, grants, favorable mortgages/loans, etc. You have a large pool of people who can qualify for these homes, so you can get them sold fast. Metro governments are bending over backwards trying to get builders to make more affordable housing. Developers are building complexes with a mix of high priced homes and affordable housing so they can get preferential treatment in financing (see any urban area, cabrini green, etc.)

The issue with buiying real estate isnt necessarily having money. You can get real estate with no money and jacked up credit (for the record my credit suuuuuxxxx to this day and had no $$ when I got my first house. If you know what youre doing, credit doesnt matter.) The issue is knowledge and knowing how to use other people's money. People who live outside the community doing urban projects know this while people in the community dont.

A shift in mindset is necessary

peace
julian kelly

SHEIK YERBOUTI

06-18-2003, 01:22 PM

Mr. Kelly, check your pm's.

imported_Gman

06-18-2003, 01:39 PM

Originally posted by julian_kelly:
0I didnt see the tv special but I can relate to it from first hand experience. I'm a real estate investor and for the past few years have come across tons of gay individuals buying homes in black urban areas. The people who have lived in the areas for years are forced out for many reasons. Sometimes code violations, sometimes because the market value increases and they simply cant afford the property taxes. There is definitely a rift...not necessarily because the people are gay, but because they are losing their homes.

I've talked to many gay people on a one on one basis and asked them "Why this (black) neighborhood?" and I've gotten many answers. Many of them felt comfortable in black neighborhoods; they liked the seclusion from 'judging individuals' that it provided. Some like the historical feel of the urban neighborhood versus the suburbs. But the primary reason is cost. When you can get a house for 40k and have it appreciate 300% in a short period of time, its a nobrainer.

Real estate investors are savy business people and can predict trends. If you can do market analysis and predict living trends, you can make a killing. The HUGE trend now is affordable housing....providing homes in the $100k range and below....(also read: buy homes in black neighborhoods that are rundown...fix them up...sell them at and affordable price and make cheeze.) Its amazing now how many realtors I see running to the black neighborhood to do business whereas three years they wouldnt have touched the area with a ten foot pole. Middle class white people and gays move in the neighborhood and the values skyrocket.

Prices in the affordable housing range vary from state to state. All the top guns are getting into affordable housing because of tax cuts, grants, favorable mortgages/loans, etc. You have a large pool of people who can qualify for these homes, so you can get them sold fast. Metro governments are bending over backwards trying to get builders to make more affordable housing. Developers are building complexes with a mix of high priced homes and affordable housing so they can get preferential treatment in financing (see any urban area, cabrini green, etc.)

The issue with buiying real estate isnt necessarily having money. You can get real estate with no money and jacked up credit (for the record my credit suuuuuxxxx to this day and had no $$ when I got my first house. If you know what youre doing, credit doesnt matter.) The issue is knowledge and knowing how to use other people's money. People who live outside the community doing urban projects know this while people in the community dont.

A shift in mindset is necessary

peace
julian kelly http://deephousepage.com/smilies/scratchchin.gif

darrow

06-18-2003, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by julian_kelly:

The issue with buiying real estate isnt necessarily having money. You can get real estate with no money and jacked up credit (for the record my credit suuuuuxxxx to this day and had no $$ when I got my first house. If you know what youre doing, credit doesnt matter.) The issue is knowledge and knowing how to use other people's money. People who live outside the community doing urban projects know this while people in the community dont.

hmmm...this last paragraph is definitely an attention grabber. do you provide real estate investor seminars? sign me up. :D

Koffy Brown

06-18-2003, 01:48 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by darrow:
[QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by julian_kelly:
[qb]
The issue with buiying real estate isnt necessarily having money. You can get real estate with no money and jacked up credit (for the record my credit suuuuuxxxx to this day and had no $$ when I got my first house. If you know what youre doing, credit doesnt matter.) The issue is knowledge and knowing how to use other people's money. People who live outside the community doing urban projects know this while people in the community dont.

Continue..tell us more...

Leslie

06-18-2003, 01:49 PM

Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by julian_kelly:

The issue with buiying real estate isnt necessarily having money. You can get real estate with no money and jacked up credit (for the record my credit suuuuuxxxx to this day and had no $$ when I got my first house. If you know what youre doing, credit doesnt matter.) The issue is knowledge and knowing how to use other people's money. People who live outside the community doing urban projects know this while people in the community dont.

hmmm...this last paragraph is definitely an attention grabber. do you provide real estate investor seminars? sign me up. :D [/QUOTE]Darrow its so true though - I had nothing more than the desire to tell my landlord to go screw himself as my motivation to buy. My credit was great but had no real downpayment money and sure enough 10 months later I get a call from the idiot at my new phone number wondering where my rent check was - ahh went towards my mortgage idiot, speak to my former roommate (still my dear, dear friend no drama there) about rent from hence forth. It can be done.....

06-18-2003, 03:34 PM

Originally posted by Leslie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by julian_kelly:

The issue with buiying real estate isnt necessarily having money. You can get real estate with no money and jacked up credit (for the record my credit suuuuuxxxx to this day and had no $$ when I got my first house. If you know what youre doing, credit doesnt matter.) The issue is knowledge and knowing how to use other people's money. People who live outside the community doing urban projects know this while people in the community dont.

hmmm...this last paragraph is definitely an attention grabber. do you provide real estate investor seminars? sign me up. :D [/QUOTE]Darrow its so true though - I had nothing more than the desire to tell my landlord to go screw himself as my motivation to buy. My credit was great but had no real downpayment money and sure enough 10 months later I get a call from the idiot at my new phone number wondering where my rent check was - ahh went towards my mortgage idiot, speak to my former roommate (still my dear, dear friend no drama there) about rent from hence forth. It can be done..... [/QUOTE]what she said...it's as easy as research at your local library...do a search on amazon about buying a house, copy the books and go check them out...