IN house music, how many copies of a 12" need to be sold to be considered a success? [Archive]

D J 1 3 8

11-11-2003, 05:09 PM

All this talk of success and selling out got me wondering what type of numbers we are talking about here.

I realized that I really don't have a sense of how many copies get sold.

Sometimes it seems like record stores in NYC may get no more than 200 copies between ALL of them (for certain records), and this is freakin' NY, certainly a bigger market than much of the country.

Another DJ once said he thought 60,000 copies was considered "platinum" in the deep house game. Is this true?

How many copies would you estimate "Brand New Day" sold?
How about the bootleg of Glenn Lewis "It's Not Fair"?
How about "Rose Rouge"?

Anybody with real knowledge of this, your input is much appreciated in helping me understand the numbers. It would put things in a sharper perspective.

If this has been answered before, feel free to use the little graemlins/spanka.gif emoticon and link me to the answer.

Huey P. Freeman

11-11-2003, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
All this talk of success and selling out got me wondering what type of numbers we are talking about here.

I realized that I really don't have a sense of how many copies get sold.

Sometimes it seems like record stores in NYC may get no more than 200 copies between ALL of them (for certain records), and this is freakin' NY, certainly a bigger market than much of the country.

Another DJ once said he thought 60,000 copies was considered "platinum" in the deep house game. Is this true?

How many copies would you estimate "Brand New Day" sold?
How about the bootleg of Glenn Lewis "It's Not Fair"?
How about "Rose Rouge"?

Anybody with real knowledge of this, your input is much appreciated in helping me understand the numbers. It would put things in a sharper perspective.

If this has been answered before, feel free to use the little graemlins/spanka.gif emoticon and link me to the answer. Hell how many copies of "The Bomb" were sold?

DeesKo

11-11-2003, 05:40 PM

That number would be subjective depending on who it was obviously.

For our record, 1500 were pressed, they sold out in approx. 3 weeks and everyone was happy. It was considered a success, in the sense that no one lost money, and that's the reality of it...

...in a LOT of ways, this game is just about not losing your ass, and that goes for people with a whole lot more talent than me.

I've heard numbers in the range of 15,000 is a success for the more well known names, but I've also heard rumors that this number has dropped below 10,000 in the past year or two.

The day I bought my studio equipment, a producer who'd already had a hit record told me flat out, production and vinyl sales ain't gonna make you much more than a dime & a nickel. The hustle is what happens on the backside of that.

Peace

djmarbll

11-11-2003, 05:44 PM

I think house certifications are much smaller than other musical genres. I know in gospel for a cd to sell 50,000 copies was to go gold and to sell 100,000 copies was to go platinum. House usually doesn't even sell this well. But I was told years ago that "Percolator" was maybe the best-selling house record because it sold over a half-million copies. I don't know if that's true or not.

mhd

11-11-2003, 05:47 PM

if you press more vinyl = more sales?

DeesKo

11-11-2003, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
if you press more vinyl = more sales? not even close.

D J 1 3 8

11-11-2003, 05:51 PM

I would imagine that Stardust has sold more copies than anything in recent memory. Yet, I'm more intersted in numbers for the kind of underground joints DHP folks play.

mhd

11-11-2003, 05:54 PM

Originally posted by DeesKo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
if you press more vinyl = more sales? not even close. [/QUOTE]not even for a hot cut that's in demand?

Light Skinted Wif Good Hur

11-11-2003, 05:55 PM

There's more than one way to have success--liscensing helps too!

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 05:57 PM

I felt successful when after we sold 10K copies we were able to do licensing deals in the various countries and try to put the music on compilations

But I was a little fish

G Pizzaro, once heartily endorsed my 10K figure during a music conference

D J 1 3 8

11-11-2003, 05:58 PM

So...so far we have one answer that 1500 copies is a good amount because at least you break even. I am actually surprised that you can break even with that few copies.

Anybody else have any numbers? JMNYC?

[ November 11, 2003, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: DJ 138 ]

DeesKo

11-11-2003, 05:59 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DeesKo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
if you press more vinyl = more sales? not even close. [/QUOTE]not even for a hot cut that's in demand? [/QUOTE]You only have so many DJ's buying/playing 'our' hot cuts. At some point you've flooded the market with product and have leftovers/returns/boxes of records sitting in your living room.

Peace

Bold Soul

11-11-2003, 06:00 PM

I know I posted this in another thread, but I'll repost it here, because its more appropriate.

The same product for EXHIBITORS should not be the same product for CONSUMERS. It's called TIERED LICENSING. The software industry does it. The movie industry does it.

If I take a copy of Oracle and build an enterprise solution for IBM, it ain't gonna be the same price as if I were building a database for a corner bakery.

Maybe I could take the same DVD you bought for $14.00 and project it in a 150 seat theater, but I have to rent a print of the film for THOUSANDS.

That someone can pay $.99 for a track and use it to bang a party earning THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS is just stupid business.

Even if the DJ is playing a "banger", there is no sales engine set up to capitalize on the crowd frenzy. Few consumers walk out of a party wondering what track "so and so" played at what timecode on his set at 12:00am. The club as sales arm is a flawed paradigm and is what is costing the game some serious revenue.

Just think, what if a DJ broke a really hot HOT banger...and it was available for sale IMMEDIATELY. You could purchase one at the bar when you were tabbing out and, two days later, it arrived in your mailbox...wait...okay, no more free ideas for you mufugs...Kirk Out!

liL Ray

11-11-2003, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by DeesKo:
The hustle is what happens on the backside of that.

Peace please explain...either here(preferred) or in a pm...thanks...

DeesKo

11-11-2003, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
So...so far we have one answer that 1500 copies is a good amount because at least you break even. I am actually surprised that you can break even with that few copies.
Well, you wouldn't break even just off of pushing 1500 units, we got one nice licensing deal on the record & without that, it wouldn't have turned out the same way.

At the same time, every deal is different. If it'd been ME and only me producing, publishing & mixing down, and getting someone to do a remix for free, sure you could break even with 1500 units. Is that the best avenue for continuing to produce quality music, not even close.

Peace

mhd

11-11-2003, 06:05 PM

your new technics come with a sensor to read the barcode on your vinyl...

D J 1 3 8

11-11-2003, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
The club as sales arm is a flawed paradigm and is what is costing the game some serious revenue.
Isn't that what the whole publishing company fee (for clubs) is supposed to be compensating for, public performance of copyrighted material?

Mind you, I have no idea if that system has ever even worked, even with the mega-clubs. I know the down-low joints I play ain't paying jack.

liL Ray

11-11-2003, 06:07 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:

Just think, what if a DJ broke a really hot HOT banger...and it was available for sale IMMEDIATELY. You could purchase one at the bar when you were tabbing out and, two days later, it arrived in your mailbox...wait...okay, no more free ideas for you mufugs...Kirk Out! WOW!!! Cha-CHING!!!!!

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:08 PM

A lil plan

FIRST THE MASTERS MUST BE READY

1. call your overseas distributors and have them purchase the product over the phone ( they usually paid cash in advance)

2. Call your pressing company upon reciept of monies and have them press and direct ship. - this is risky part as too much lag will **** the game up

3. Press a limited run for domestic consumption ( self distribute as the major US distributors will usually **** you for your cash if they don't feel you have any added product in the pipeline)

4 Distribute no more than 200 tests to key djs around the country to get some buzz

5. Try to license like crazy

If you are a small fish this is fairly safe way to go, imo

mhd

11-11-2003, 06:11 PM

mark, break down no. 5, if you will

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
mark, break down no. 5, if you will As a publisher, you want to get as many exclusive rights to publish per territory as you can, for as much as you can. The main markets being UK, Japan, Italy, Germany, Benelux, Spain and the US.

Distributors/Publishers pay you a fee for the exclusive rights to your product in a specific territory. There is also a lot of money and exposure to be had from putting your tracks on copmpilations. Also, has MOBY has shown, licensing for commercials is VERY lucrative ( also the Mr Scruff tune is associated with Lincoln)

Shit is even lovelier if you are talking about a vocal project as that can be remixed to suit the tastes of a specific territory. Some might say this is selling out, I call it genius

Others can probably better explain a lot as i have forgotten a lot

DeesKo

11-11-2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by liL Ray:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DeesKo:
The hustle is what happens on the backside of that.

Peace please explain...either here(preferred) or in a pm...thanks... [/QUOTE]I ain't shit in this game yet, but here's what I've seen personally :

First and foremost, you get your own shit together.

It doesn't have to be a full on label, but become a publisher/writer registered with ASCAP/BMI.

Produce a hot song, get it in the hands of a couple of key people on CDR that can build interest in the song.

Once the interest is there you shop it to some labels for vinyl distribution in the US and/or other territories. You can afford to make them a cheap deal because you own the publishing. They in turn get the cash from the vinyl sales and make their money back & you now have your product in the hands of all the jocks, not only for free (it didn't cost you anything) but WITH you making a small profit from the labels who licensed it from you for vinyl sales.

Then its time for you to hustle as the publisher to get it licensed on CD compilations, commercials, movie spots, video games, etc. Literally anywhere you hear background music, its your duty to do your best to make sure that's YOUR music in the background. At that point, its on you. Its how much you are willing to hustle/work.

Every licensing deal is cash in your pocket because you're the publisher. Some of those deals, as Bold Soul and Chip E. pointed out last week are not exactly chump change either.

The thing is, depending on how you look at it, the DJ's blowing the song up are the ones giving you extra leverage when it comes time to negotiate each one of those deals. You might have a nice song, it might net you $500 because no one knows it by name, but if you have the 2004 version of Africanism's "Block Party" that will sell CD's or cars or whatever simply because everyone knows/likes that song, then you have more leverage to make more money...

.... thanks to the DJ's.

The other side of it is the gigs you suddenly get offered because now you're the cool new thing. I ain't sayin its right, but if we're talking about how people exploit a good song into added revenue, thats a big one.

Again, this is my half-cocked view so take it for what its worth...

Peace

[ November 11, 2003, 06:27 PM: Message edited by: DeesKo ]

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:24 PM

Originally posted by DeesKo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by liL Ray:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DeesKo:
The hustle is what happens on the backside of that.

Peace please explain...either here(preferred) or in a pm...thanks... [/QUOTE]I ain't shit in this game yet, but here's what I've seen personally :

First and foremost, you get your own shit together.

It doesn't have to be a full on label, but become a publisher/writer registered with ASCAP/BMI.

Produce a hot song, get it in the hands of a couple of key people on CDR that can build interest in the song.

Once the interest is there you shop it to some labels for vinyl distribution in the US and/or other territories. You can afford to make them a cheap deal because you own the publishing. They in turn get the cash from the vinyl sales and make their money back & you now have your product in the hands of all the jocks, not only for free (it didn't cost you anything) but WITH you making a small profit from the labels who licensed it from you for vinyl sales.

Then its time for you to hustle as the publisher to get it licensed on CD compilations, commercials, movie spots, video games, etc. Literally anywhere you hear background music, its your duty to do your best to make sure that's YOUR music in the background. At that point, its on you. Its how much you are willing to hustle/work.

Every licensing deal is cash in your pocket because you're the publisher. Some of those deals, as Bold Soul and Chip E. pointed out last week are not exactly chump change either.

The thing is, depending on how you look at it, the DJ's blowing the song up are the ones giving you extra leverage when it comes time to negotiate each one of those deals. You might have a nice song, it might net you $500 because no one knows it by name, but if you have the 2004 version of Africanism's "Block Party" that will sell CD's or cars or whatever simply because everyone knows/likes that song, then you have more leverage to make more money...

.... thanks to the DJ's.

The other side of it is the gigs you suddenly get offered because now you're the cool new thing. I ain't sayin its right, but if we're talking about how people exploit a good song into added revenue, thats a big one.

Again, this is my half-cocked view so take it for what its worth...

Peace

The thing is, there really are

Just my half-informed 2 cents. [/QUOTE]deliver the word baby

D J 1 3 8

11-11-2003, 06:26 PM

Originally posted by liL Ray:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:

Just think, what if a DJ broke a really hot HOT banger...and it was available for sale IMMEDIATELY. You could purchase one at the bar when you were tabbing out and, two days later, it arrived in your mailbox...wait...okay, no more free ideas for you mufugs...Kirk Out! WOW!!! Cha-CHING!!!!! [/QUOTE]If a guy like Louie vega or Timmy could have mix CDs at the bar with tracks that he was actually playing that night, they'd sell like crazy.

Licensing is such a long, legally-drawn-out process that by the time these DJs get the right to put tracks on their CDs, the songs are usually over a year old.

So that kind of kills the mixCD idea.

Which leaves you with selling individual songs, since they don't need to be licensed. Yet, I feel like the day of the "cassingle" is gone. I don't know if people really would purchase just one song anymore.

Remember when Tower Records first came out with those mix CD machines in the store? I wonder if those tracks had to be individually licensed, or if tower just had to pay a fee based on the number of times a p[articular song went on somebody's mix CD.

Maybe you could devise a similar system so that, in the end, the club-goer was purchasing a full 13 track CD for $15 or so (un-mixed). They could choose from a huge playlist that the DJ provided the club with a month in advance (giving them time to get the song from the label/distributor). I dunno. Maybe this idea is just crazy.

[ November 11, 2003, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: DJ 138 ]

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:27 PM

In case it slipped by amidst all this verbiage, the name of the game is PUBLISHING

2 classic tales SBK...the man and Michael Jackson/Lisa Marie Presley union

Thats a homework assignment or maybe someone else will tell the tale as I've been labeled a know it all

D J 1 3 8

11-11-2003, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
Michael Jackson/Lisa Marie Presley union The Church of Scientology came out pretty good on that deal, I believe.

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:33 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by liL Ray:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:

Just think, what if a DJ broke a really hot HOT banger...and it was available for sale IMMEDIATELY. You could purchase one at the bar when you were tabbing out and, two days later, it arrived in your mailbox...wait...okay, no more free ideas for you mufugs...Kirk Out! WOW!!! Cha-CHING!!!!! [/QUOTE]If a guy like Louie vega or Timmy could have mix CDs at the bar with tracks that he was actually playing that night, they'd sell like crazy.

Licensing is such a long, legally-drawn-out process that by the time these DJs get the right to put tracks on their CDs, the songs are usually over a year old.

So that kind of kills the mixCD idea.

Which leaves you with selling individual songs, since they don't need to be licensed. Yet, I feel like the day of the "cassingle" is gone. I don't know if people really would purchase just one song anymore.

Remember when Tower Records first came out with those mix CD machines in the store? I wonder if those tracks had to be individually licensed, or if tower just had to pay a fee based on the number of times a p[articular song went on somebody's mix CD.

Maybe you could devise a similar system so that, in the end, the club-goer was purchasing a full 13 track CD for $15 or so (un-mixed). They could choose from a huge playlist that the DJ provided them with a month in advance. I dunno. Maybe this idea is just crazy. [/QUOTE]If folks tried what you suggest the spot would be raided by the FBI/ LocalPD/RIAA...and the club would likely be shuttered under RICO statutes

MAW made a ton of money through licensing and a good attorney (Steve Rosen?)...this aint no hustle , its a business - respect that

( of course there are exceptions such as dj clue and Ron G and Kid Capri, but the rap game is a lil different and that was straight ghetto and underground)

Bold Soul

11-11-2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
In case it slipped by amidst all this verbiage, the name of the game is PUBLISHING

2 classic tales SBK...the man and Michael Jackson/Lisa Marie Presley union

Thats a homework assignment or maybe someone else will tell the tale as I've been labeled a know it all Yea...in case anyone hasn't noticed, all the "HOUSE IS DEAD" haters have provided a virtual HOW TO MANUAL for improving the game and an individual's pockets. This three day shit storm I caused has lead to a virtual symposium.

Nice. ;)

DeesKo

11-11-2003, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
deliver the word baby ... and lets not even get into what happens once you get in good with some commercial/tv/movie circles and hustle. I've heard there's a couple bucks to be had scoring movies too.

Twelve Inches have ALWAYS just been the tool used to open the door, to create the buzz, to empower you, not the end goal.

Peace

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:35 PM

Originally posted by DeesKo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
deliver the word baby ... and lets not even get into what happens once you get in good with some commercial/tv/movie circles and hustle. I've heard there's a couple bucks to be had scoring movies too.

Twelve Inches have ALWAYS just been the tool used to open the door, to create the buzz, to empower you, not the end goal.

Peace [/QUOTE]Talk to Jellybean Benitez about the movie thing...can you spell P-A-I-D

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
In case it slipped by amidst all this verbiage, the name of the game is PUBLISHING

2 classic tales SBK...the man and Michael Jackson/Lisa Marie Presley union

Thats a homework assignment or maybe someone else will tell the tale as I've been labeled a know it all Yea...in case anyone hasn't noticed, all the "HOUSE IS DEAD" haters have provided a virtual HOW TO MANUAL for improving the game and an individual's pockets. This three day shit storm I caused has lead to a virtual symposium.

Nice. ;) [/QUOTE]But sadly some will still focus on the mesengers

DeesKo

11-11-2003, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
Talk to Jellybean Benitez about the movie thing...can you spell P-A-I-D Talk to Full Force about another version of the hustle.

Peace

Bold Soul

11-11-2003, 06:38 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DeesKo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
deliver the word baby ... and lets not even get into what happens once you get in good with some commercial/tv/movie circles and hustle. I've heard there's a couple bucks to be had scoring movies too.

Twelve Inches have ALWAYS just been the tool used to open the door, to create the buzz, to empower you, not the end goal.

Peace [/QUOTE]Talk to Jellybean Benitez about the movie thing...can you spell P-A-I-D [/QUOTE]Yup -BOLD SOUL will be receiving royalties for the soundtrack and score to "5150" into perpetuity.

mhd

11-11-2003, 06:38 PM

gotta be a way to streamline licensing,

DJ Timmy Richardson

11-11-2003, 06:39 PM

Originally posted by djmarbll:
I think house certifications are much smaller than other musical genres. I know in gospel for a cd to sell 50,000 copies was to go gold and to sell 100,000 copies was to go platinum. House usually doesn't even sell this well. But I was told years ago that "Percolator" was maybe the best-selling house record because it sold over a half-million copies. I don't know if that's true or not. That label pressed that many copies...Im sure crossover acts must have sold more than any underground act..

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:41 PM

Originally posted by DeesKo:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
Talk to Jellybean Benitez about the movie thing...can you spell P-A-I-D Talk to Full Force about another version of the hustle.

Peace [/QUOTE]Oh no you didn't.......traded in their jheri curls for blond hair and blue eyes and are counting that cheddar

Respect yo

Bold Soul

11-11-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
gotta be a way to streamline licensing, Yep - consolidation. Everyone doesn't need their own publishing company. One publishing company that handles a number of artists, all in different genres, would have some centralized connects, legal and accounting support for all their deals.

A number of publishing companies exist. New ones should get in the game as well...maybe I know of one...hmmm...maybe...

Huey P. Freeman

11-11-2003, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
A lil plan

FIRST THE MASTERS MUST BE READY

1. call your overseas distributors and have them purchase the product over the phone ( they usually paid cash in advance)

2. Call your pressing company upon reciept of monies and have them press and direct ship. - this is risky part as too much lag will **** the game up

3. Press a limited run for domestic consumption ( self distribute as the major US distributors will usually **** you for your cash if they don't feel you have any added product in the pipeline)

4 Distribute no more than 200 tests to key djs around the country to get some buzz

5. Try to license like crazy

If you are a small fish this is fairly safe way to go, imo hail.gif That's what I'm talking bout. I have learned so much on this thread. Thanks to you and Danny. Great Idea about selling copies of your song at the club.

[ November 11, 2003, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: Eargasm ]

mhd

11-11-2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
gotta be a way to streamline licensing, Yep - consolidation. Everyone doesn't need their own publishing company. One publishing company that handles a number of artists, all in different genres, would have some centralized connects, legal and accounting support for all their deals.

A number of publishing companies exist. New ones should get in the game as well...maybe I know of one...hmmm...maybe... [/QUOTE]sounds like a win/win

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Eargasm:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
A lil plan

FIRST THE MASTERS MUST BE READY

1. call your overseas distributors and have them purchase the product over the phone ( they usually paid cash in advance)

2. Call your pressing company upon reciept of monies and have them press and direct ship. - this is risky part as too much lag will **** the game up

3. Press a limited run for domestic consumption ( self distribute as the major US distributors will usually **** you for your cash if they don't feel you have any added product in the pipeline)

4 Distribute no more than 200 tests to key djs around the country to get some buzz

5. Try to license like crazy

If you are a small fish this is fairly safe way to go, imo hail.gif That's what I'm talking bout. I have learned so much on this thread. Thanks to you and Danny. Great Idea about selling copies of your song at the club. [/QUOTE]You can always sell copies of music you own anywhere...but for your own good don't try to sell mixed cds of material that you don't own the rights too...its called bootlegging and it is illegal

Do things the right way and you really can clean up in this game..there is no need to cut corners

Bold Soul

11-11-2003, 06:48 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
gotta be a way to streamline licensing, Yep - consolidation. Everyone doesn't need their own publishing company. One publishing company that handles a number of artists, all in different genres, would have some centralized connects, legal and accounting support for all their deals.

A number of publishing companies exist. New ones should get in the game as well...maybe I know of one...hmmm...maybe... [/QUOTE]sounds like a win/win [/QUOTE]Yep. By virtue of being in the movie game, I'm in the music game, like it or not. I thought I might as well take advantage since I have to do the same amount of work anyhow. It's looking real nice up ahead. Real nice.

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
gotta be a way to streamline licensing, Yep - consolidation. Everyone doesn't need their own publishing company. One publishing company that handles a number of artists, all in different genres, would have some centralized connects, legal and accounting support for all their deals.

A number of publishing companies exist. New ones should get in the game as well...maybe I know of one...hmmm...maybe... [/QUOTE]sounds like a win/win [/QUOTE]Yep. By virtue of being in the movie game, I'm in the music game, like it or not. I thought I might as well take advantage since I have to do the same amount of work anyhow. It's looking real nice up ahead. Real nice. [/QUOTE]Casablanca, 20th Century, CBS, ABC, Disney...you're in good company

The Buddy Love Show

11-11-2003, 06:54 PM

Epiphany - PUBLISHING

get it

Paley
Hearst
Murdoch
Koppelman
MJ(J) - why ya think him and McCartney aint so palsy anymore
Sulzberger
......Danny Gardner

Bold Soul

11-11-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
Epiphany - PUBLISHING

get it

Paley
Hearst
Murdoch
Koppelman
MJ(J) - why ya think him and McCartney aint so palsy anymore
Sulzberger
......Danny Gardner Yep. Got a few seats open. Get on board.

(BTW - Magus, clean out 'dem PMs. I've been tryin' to touch base on our long overdue phone conversation. ;) Got some things goin' and I'm dying to get your insight.)

Mah'chew

11-11-2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
In case it slipped by amidst all this verbiage, the name of the game is PUBLISHING

2 classic tales SBK...the man and Michael Jackson/Lisa Marie Presley union

Thats a homework assignment or maybe someone else will tell the tale as I've been labeled a know it all Yea...in case anyone hasn't noticed, all the "HOUSE IS DEAD" haters have provided a virtual HOW TO MANUAL for improving the game and an individual's pockets. This three day shit storm I caused has lead to a virtual symposium.

Nice. ;) [/QUOTE]But sadly some will still focus on the mesengers [/QUOTE]First DJ to appear in a glossy teen girls magazine in the UK, he was riding his picture alongside Duran Duran and getting $$$. Not to mention the cameo appearances in New Order's video for their track Confusion in 1984 - $kerching$

Doug

11-11-2003, 08:20 PM

I wanted to add a few things here as well:

Number of records sold to be considered a success in house music

As Deesko said, in today's market if you're selling around 1500 to 2000 copies of a vinyl single, you're doing great. Ten years ago, selling 4000 to 5000 copies of a record would be considered average. Selling over 10,000, as Mark said, would be considered outstanding. There's a nice chunck of change to made off of sales when they reach that territory. But as both Mark and Deesko have stated, licensing and publishing is where the real money is. This is the lifeblood of small labels. This is part of the reason why small labels routinely ask house producers to give up 50% of their publishing when signing a track (which, if you didn't know already, is foolish). A label with 50% of the publishing on a string of hits (like, for example, Strictly Rhythm) is basically setting itself up to secure a major publishing deal, where advances can be in the six to seven figure range.

How to stream licensing for house music:

I posted this in another thread, but I will also post it here. I think someone should create an independent "mixtape" agency with whom DJs planning to sell mixtapes or CDs on a regular basis could register. DJs would pay a small fee to join this agency and would be required to register every mix CD they intend to sell with the agency. Included with the CD registration would be complete information about the label, artist, writer and publisher. Once the CD is registered with the agency, the agency would duplicate the CD in batches and charge a fee on a sliding scale for the number of CDs to be duplicated, say $10 for a batch of 10 CDs, $25 for a batch of 20 CDs, $50 for a batch of 30, etc.. The money collected would then be distributed by some as yet determined method to the artists, labels, writers and publishers of the songs on the CD that are also registered as such with the agency.

DJs would be limited to selling 500 copies of each CD registered with the agency. DJs would be able to sell the CDs for any price they wish, but would be encouraged to be fair and keep the price at $10 per CD or less. Once 500 CDs had been ordered by the DJ, that particular mix CD title would be frozen and would no longer be able to be duplicated. Only the DJ registering the CD would be allowed to authorize its duplication. No labels of any kind would be allowed to register for this service.

No, I haven't thought through all of the "what ifs" for this scenario. But on its face it seems to help deal with a few problems, namely:

1. Eliminating licensing cost hurdle that many small time DJs seeking to sell CDs legitimately would face.

2. Providing another stream of income for those labels, artists, writers, and publishers registered with the agency.

3. Providing artists with another avenue for exposure.

4. Allowing DJs who may not be active club DJs to make a little money to help to pay for their "habit"

5. Limiting access to only those DJs who claim not to be in game for big profits.

It's not perfect, but it's a start.

Peace,

Doug

Bold Soul

11-11-2003, 08:37 PM

Yes it is, Doug. Very comprehensive, indeed!

Bold Soul

11-11-2003, 08:41 PM

Originally posted by Mah'chew:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
In case it slipped by amidst all this verbiage, the name of the game is PUBLISHING

2 classic tales SBK...the man and Michael Jackson/Lisa Marie Presley union

Thats a homework assignment or maybe someone else will tell the tale as I've been labeled a know it all Yea...in case anyone hasn't noticed, all the "HOUSE IS DEAD" haters have provided a virtual HOW TO MANUAL for improving the game and an individual's pockets. This three day shit storm I caused has lead to a virtual symposium.

Nice. ;) [/QUOTE]But sadly some will still focus on the mesengers [/QUOTE]First DJ to appear in a glossy teen girls magazine in the UK, he was riding his picture alongside Duran Duran and getting $$$. Not to mention the cameo appearances in New Order's video for their track Confusion in 1984 - $kerching$ [/QUOTE]Interesting!

El Mayimbe

11-11-2003, 10:02 PM

someone please ban MAGUS, he's spilling too much info graemlins/cussing.gif

Nege

11-11-2003, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by liL Ray:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:

Just think, what if a DJ broke a really hot HOT banger...and it was available for sale IMMEDIATELY. You could purchase one at the bar when you were tabbing out and, two days later, it arrived in your mailbox...wait...okay, no more free ideas for you mufugs...Kirk Out! WOW!!! Cha-CHING!!!!! [/QUOTE]If a guy like Louie vega or Timmy could have mix CDs at the bar with tracks that he was actually playing that night, they'd sell like crazy.

Licensing is such a long, legally-drawn-out process that by the time these DJs get the right to put tracks on their CDs, the songs are usually over a year old.

So that kind of kills the mixCD idea.

Which leaves you with selling individual songs, since they don't need to be licensed. Yet, I feel like the day of the "cassingle" is gone. I don't know if people really would purchase just one song anymore.

Remember when Tower Records first came out with those mix CD machines in the store? I wonder if those tracks had to be individually licensed, or if tower just had to pay a fee based on the number of times a p[articular song went on somebody's mix CD.

Maybe you could devise a similar system so that, in the end, the club-goer was purchasing a full 13 track CD for $15 or so (un-mixed). They could choose from a huge playlist that the DJ provided them with a month in advance. I dunno. Maybe this idea is just crazy. [/QUOTE]If folks tried what you suggest the spot would be raided by the FBI/ LocalPD/RIAA...and the club would likely be shuttered under RICO statutes

MAW made a ton of money through licensing and a good attorney (Steve Rosen?)...this aint no hustle , its a business - respect that

( of course there are exceptions such as dj clue and Ron G and Kid Capri, but the rap game is a lil different and that was straight ghetto and underground) [/QUOTE]they also made their money in the early nineties remixing TOP 40 R&B and POP ARTISTS (B.G the prince of rap,debbie gibson,vanessa williams,cover girls,trey lorenz,freedom williams,49ers,dee-lite.....list goes on.........

[ November 11, 2003, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Nege ]

alex zen

11-12-2003, 12:26 AM

Originally posted by Doug:
I wanted to add a few things here as well:

Number of records sold to be considered a success in house music

As Deesko said, in today's market if you're selling around 1500 to 2000 copies of a vinyl single, you're doing great. Ten years ago, selling 4000 to 5000 copies of a record would be considered average. Selling over 10,000, as Mark said, would be considered outstanding. There's a nice chunck of change to made off of sales when they reach that territory. But as both Mark and Deesko have stated, licensing and publishing is where the real money is. This is the lifeblood of small labels. This is part of the reason why small labels routinely ask house producers to give up 50% of their publishing when signing a track (which, if you didn't know already, is foolish). A label with 50% of the publishing on a string of hits (like, for example, Strictly Rhythm) is basically setting itself up to secure a major publishing deal, where advances can be in the six to seven figure range.

How to stream licensing for house music:

I posted this in another thread, but I will also post it here. I think someone should create an independent "mixtape" agency with whom DJs planning to sell mixtapes or CDs on a regular basis could register. DJs would pay a small fee to join this agency and would be required to register every mix CD they intend to sell with the agency. Included with the CD registration would be complete information about the label, artist, writer and publisher. Once the CD is registered with the agency, the agency would duplicate the CD in batches and charge a fee on a sliding scale for the number of CDs to be duplicated, say $10 for a batch of 10 CDs, $25 for a batch of 20 CDs, $50 for a batch of 30, etc.. The money collected would then be distributed by some as yet determined method to the artists, labels, writers and publishers of the songs on the CD that are also registered as such with the agency.

DJs would be limited to selling 500 copies of each CD registered with the agency. DJs would be able to sell the CDs for any price they wish, but would be encouraged to be fair and keep the price at $10 per CD or less. Once 500 CDs had been ordered by the DJ, that particular mix CD title would be frozen and would no longer be able to be duplicated. Only the DJ registering the CD would be allowed to authorize its duplication. No labels of any kind would be allowed to register for this service.

No, I haven't thought through all of the "what ifs" for this scenario. But on its face it seems to help deal with a few problems, namely:

1. Eliminating licensing cost hurdle that many small time DJs seeking to sell CDs legitimately would face.

2. Providing another stream of income for those labels, artists, writers, and publishers registered with the agency.

3. Providing artists with another avenue for exposure.

4. Allowing DJs who may not be active club DJs to make a little money to help to pay for their "habit"

5. Limiting access to only those DJs who claim not to be in game for big profits.

It's not perfect, but it's a start.

Peace,

Doug great ideas

Doug

11-12-2003, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
Just think, what if a DJ broke a really hot HOT banger...and it was available for sale IMMEDIATELY. You could purchase one at the bar when you were tabbing out and, two days later, it arrived in your mailbox...wait...okay, no more free ideas for you mufugs...Kirk Out! You mean something like this?:

http://www.v-sync.com/products/

The technology is out there. All that is needed is capital and vision.

Bold Soul

11-12-2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Doug:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
Just think, what if a DJ broke a really hot HOT banger...and it was available for sale IMMEDIATELY. You could purchase one at the bar when you were tabbing out and, two days later, it arrived in your mailbox...wait...okay, no more free ideas for you mufugs...Kirk Out! You mean something like this?:

http://www.v-sync.com/products/

The technology is out there. All that is needed is capital and vision. [/QUOTE]Close...but I see a path far simpler than this.

O'love

11-12-2003, 10:46 AM

we're new to the game with our label, and maybe our music is not as good as the "big names" but i am happy when we sell 500 pieces at this point (2 releases) .... and this is *worldwide* ... we have a US distribution and a "the rest of the world" distribution.... with the last one: they can return 100% of the records we ship them within a year, if they don't get sold in the stores....with the US distribution it's 20% returnable....

remember: there are about 200 new records released every week(!) and peeps are naturally looking at the well-known names (both labels or artists/producers) ... the only way for us to get our foot between the door is to score a hit which is picked up by some big-name DJ's and is mentioned a lot in playlists, and even better: licensed for a mix-CD or compilation...

anyway, it's all for the love of music, we can reach break-even with 500 pieces sold, and that's all we need and want..the rest is pure bonus....

Olaf

julian_kelly

11-12-2003, 11:42 AM

Im actually just now reading this stuff...good points by all...I'll add a piece to the 'How to Manual' in a minute.

I dont think people realize how a few key folk with business knowledge can positively effect everyone from dancers to dj to record companies to publishers to distribution to the small bedroom dj.

julian kelly

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
[QUOTE]....in case anyone hasn't noticed, all the "HOUSE IS DEAD" haters have provided a virtual HOW TO MANUAL for improving the game and an individual's pockets. This three day shit storm I caused has lead to a virtual symposium.

Nice. ;)

DeesKo

11-12-2003, 11:49 AM

Hmmmm

a thread throwing bombs = 6 pages of replies

a thread discussing facts and details, basically giving up business plans and discussing possible solutions to some of the real issues facing dance music = 3 pages of replies

I think Magus has proven his point.

Doug, great ideas, provided you could get house music labels to buy off on the idea. It would be a new potential source of income for the labels so I don't really see how they wouldn't be interested.

Someone gave an option earlier, it looked like a law firm who handled this type of stuff (ahhhhhhem law firm... ahhhhhhemmmmm hint hint hint hint hint) yet when I went to look up the licensing costs for my latest mix CD, not a single song on it was listed by them. There were some older house songs, but it was limited to certain labels/artists.

We need a company that is more "house-centric" (ahhhhemmmmmm a law firm that would be more "house centric" and have in-roads/connects with the labels in the game... AHHHHHHEMMMMMMMM)
that could provide this service and really, I don't even know that it would take THAT much capital or manpower. The web is a BEAUTIFUL BEAUTIFUL thing.

Peace

[ November 12, 2003, 11:56 AM: Message edited by: DeesKo ]

Bande-A-Part_NYC

11-12-2003, 04:07 PM

The reality is you will make most of your $ from DJ gigs after your record has made some noise. Sort of like bands getting a chunk of change from doing concerts. Even if you try, the reality is that your deep house song will not make it to the movies or commercials unless, well it has some real commercial appeal. So start making some sell out shit, or stay true to the music and try to make $ from DJ gigs and licensing to compilations.

The Buddy Love Show

11-12-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by Nege:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by liL Ray:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner:

Just think, what if a DJ broke a really hot HOT banger...and it was available for sale IMMEDIATELY. You could purchase one at the bar when you were tabbing out and, two days later, it arrived in your mailbox...wait...okay, no more free ideas for you mufugs...Kirk Out! WOW!!! Cha-CHING!!!!! [/QUOTE]If a guy like Louie vega or Timmy could have mix CDs at the bar with tracks that he was actually playing that night, they'd sell like crazy.

Licensing is such a long, legally-drawn-out process that by the time these DJs get the right to put tracks on their CDs, the songs are usually over a year old.

So that kind of kills the mixCD idea.

Which leaves you with selling individual songs, since they don't need to be licensed. Yet, I feel like the day of the "cassingle" is gone. I don't know if people really would purchase just one song anymore.

Remember when Tower Records first came out with those mix CD machines in the store? I wonder if those tracks had to be individually licensed, or if tower just had to pay a fee based on the number of times a p[articular song went on somebody's mix CD.

Maybe you could devise a similar system so that, in the end, the club-goer was purchasing a full 13 track CD for $15 or so (un-mixed). They could choose from a huge playlist that the DJ provided them with a month in advance. I dunno. Maybe this idea is just crazy. [/QUOTE]If folks tried what you suggest the spot would be raided by the FBI/ LocalPD/RIAA...and the club would likely be shuttered under RICO statutes

MAW made a ton of money through licensing and a good attorney (Steve Rosen?)...this aint no hustle , its a business - respect that

( of course there are exceptions such as dj clue and Ron G and Kid Capri, but the rap game is a lil different and that was straight ghetto and underground) [/QUOTE]they also made their money in the early nineties remixing TOP 40 R&B and POP ARTISTS (B.G the prince of rap,debbie gibson,vanessa williams,cover girls,trey lorenz,freedom williams,49ers,dee-lite.....list goes on......... [/QUOTE]shhhhhhhhhhhhh

the acolytes and puritans might get riled up

The Buddy Love Show

11-12-2003, 04:12 PM