Mark Levinson: CD vs. SACD and LP

[mdpm99]

Mark Levinson: CD vs. SACD and LP:


Most music lovers feel that there is something wrong with the CD. Many prefer the sound of their LP's, or have cut down or stopped listening to music without even realizing why. Classical CD's aren't selling, while LP's of the same repertoire fetch hundreds of dollars a copy. People used to have 20 or 30 LP's and enjoy them, while now, people have hundreds or thousands of CD's which they rarely listen to, and almost never hear all the way through. What's going on?

Research shows that the pulse code modulation (PCM), the operating system of the CD, has limitations that so far cannot be overcome. There is something about listening to sound that has been processed with PCM which is stressful - the opposite of what most people seek in listening to music.

Sony has introduced a new digital operating system called Direct Stream Digital (DSD) which doesn't seem to create this stress reaction. DSD sounds much better than PCM, but more importantly, it is like analogue in the sense that it is very relaxing and joyful to listen to. DSD is the operating system of the new Super Audio CD (SACD). With good SACD recordings, people find they want to listen to music again with excitement and satisfaction. Because of DSD, it is now possible to revitalize the music world. Combining SACD with RRM equipment brings out the full benefits of SACD.

For a number of reasons, it will take time to bring DSD to full development. This is a vast undertaking which requires new professional equipment, new residential equipment, SACD pressing lines, and software. It is a multi-billion dollar project which requires research and development, manufacturing, education and promotion, support from the hardware and software sectors, and many other factors to succeed.

At the RRM store in NY, we have played DSD recordings for thousands of people during the last four years. Virtually everyone is amazed and wants the technology in their home. RRM sells no conventional CD players, only SACD players (which also play CD's of course), because all our customers want to be able to listen to SACD's.

We have learned that no matter how much money is spent on CD players and CD-based systems, the results are never truly satisfying. But with SACD, even a modest system brings great musical enjoyment. Many people listen to CD's if there is something they really want to hear, but the trend is to go away from PCM to either SACD or LP.

LP's have the advantage because there is so much repertoire available. Old pressings and new releases offer unlimited choice of artists and repertoire, often for modest cost. As SACD's come out, there will be more attention given to the format, but it will take time for a substantial amount of software to appear. In 2001, Sony made 3,000 SACD players. In 2002, Sony is making 4,000,000. SACD players start at under $300, so there is no cost obstacle anymore. A number of companies are making SACD players now, with enthusiastic reception from the press and public, clearly indicating that SACD is without doubt the audio technlogy for the future of quality music reproduction.

[variable]

Research shows that = Bullshit

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by variable:
Research shows that = Bullshit Greeting to you variable:

Could you kindly advise me or direct to where I can find the "research" you are refering to.

Have a wonderful and musical day!

graemlins/beerchug.gif

d

[shannoneileen]

David... sorry this is unrelated...

but I just read an interview you did with Disco Music. Com and all I have to say is 'Wow!!! You're cool!!!' :D

***mumbling to self***
i didn't know... i knew the name sounded familiar, but i didn't know...

graemlins/cheering.gif yea David Mancuso and Loft Parties!!!!

'It's a vibe. You're having a peace of mind or you're not. Usually the more you shed your ego the more peace of mind you will have... The music... that's what it allows us to be, free.'
David Mancuso

I'm officially star struck... :D

[variable]

Originally posted by david mancuso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by variable:
Research shows that = Bullshit Greeting to you variable:

Could you kindly advise me or direct to where I can find the "research" you are refering to.

Have a wonderful and musical day!

graemlins/beerchug.gif

d </font>[/QUOTE]Im just saying, the statement Research shows, is bullshit. Research can say what ever you want it too.

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by variable:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by david mancuso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by variable:
Research shows that = Bullshit Greeting to you variable:

Could you kindly advise me or direct to where I can find the "research" you are refering to.

Have a wonderful and musical day!

graemlins/beerchug.gif

d </font>[/QUOTE]Im just saying, the statement Research shows, is bullshit. Research can say what ever you want it too. </font>[/QUOTE]Whatever......

smile.gif

d

[Ken1015]

David, do you have an SACD player? I haven't heard one but I'm in the market for a new DVD player so I'm going to buy myself a DVD/SACD player for Christmas.

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by Ken1015:
David, do you have an SACD player? I haven't heard one but I'm in the market for a new DVD player so I'm going to buy myself a DVD/SACD player for Christmas. Greetings Ken1015:

No.....but I am curious about what he saying as I have a lot of respect for Mark.

In any case ...I always try to kept an open mind.

d

[sammyrock]

Ive heard the same thing David,this info you shared with us is valuable.Thanks again for the wisdom. smile.gif

[Chris Conrad]

be aware that SACD's can be multi channel, meaning if you want to hear those cd's properly, you will need a proper multi channel listening setup consisting of a decent multi channel receiver and speaker package (5.1 or 6.1).

SACD's do sound good and considerably better than standard CD's...I also like DVD Audio.

Before anyone jumps on reasearch and what's on paper, I happen to work in the consumer electronics industry and get to meet with reps from various companies ranging from Sony, Denon, Sunfire, Yamaha, etc...everyone I ever spoke to has admitted off the record the same things I try to argue here from time to time, namely that MP3's suck and are unlisteneable, and that CD's, while good on paper, suck also. Most of them also happen to be music lovers themselves for the most part and many have substantial vinyl collections and high end turntable setups. These are people who can get their companiess technologies for FREE, but choose not to use it for themselves, even though they cannot admit this and must represent or sell their companies products.

Mark Levinson is a reputeable high end audio manufacturer that has been around for years. His stuff is not available at your local Best Buy or Circuit City, its real audio for people who take their listening seriously. Anything available in chain stores for the most part is garbage, including the small local chain I am associated with. The owner of my compnay will admit this off the record, but the mainstream stuff sells. Electronics manufacturers rely on hype marketing. The general public is fored to believe they need any new thing that comes out they need, because its in a magazine supported by advertising revenue from those manufactures or the gear was on the latest episode of MTV Cribs. Realize also, that many major brands are selling programs...a chain of stores sells so much of a certain brand or product and gets awarded in some way. This is why sales people push certain things, in some cases inferior products. Same goes for pro audio... at a Sam Ash or Guitar Center, the sales people will push a certain product, many times inferior to what you want, because that brand or line carries a better commission or additional bonus.

In high end audio, product designs won't change for years in some cases, with consumer mainstream audio, every year the hot new model comes out, just like with cars. It is all hype and illusion.

[Nick_G]

I have an SACD player but I have yet to find an SACD worth buying. I don't know what the situation is like in the States but here in the UK there are hardly any discs available. Main stores in London have the biggest choice, but even then, its only maybe 20-30 titles. Most is either complete crap like Celine Dion or bland MOR rock/pop or classical. I have seen the odd Herbie Hancock disc about but the price is a bit steep.

The potential for creativity is greater because of the huge frequency response. Infrasound and ultrasound data could be recorded and reproduced faithfully with the right set-up. This could only add to the atmosphere and presence of a recording. Infrasound especially so, as it has been shown to affect people's moods.

The players have been available for over 2 years, I just wish there was more discs available to play on them. When are we going to get some house/techno/electronica/classic dance releases on SACD?

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by Nick_G:
I have an SACD player but I have yet to find an SACD worth buying. I don't know what the situation is like in the States but here in the UK there are hardly any discs available. Main stores in London have the biggest choice, but even then, its only maybe 20-30 titles. Most is either complete crap like Celine Dion or bland MOR rock/pop or classical. I have seen the odd Herbie Hancock disc about but the price is a bit steep.

The potential for creativity is greater because of the huge frequency response. Infrasound and ultrasound data could be recorded and reproduced faithfully with the right set-up. This could only add to the atmosphere and presence of a recording. Infrasound especially so, as it has been shown to affect people's moods.

The players have been available for over 2 years, I just wish there was more discs available to play on them. When are we going to get some house/techno/electronica/classic dance releases on SACD? http://www.redrosemusic.com/sacd.shtml

[mdpm99]

to: Nick_G

Ps.

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[mdpm99]

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
be aware that SACD's can be multi channel, meaning if you want to hear those cd's properly, you will need a proper multi channel listening setup consisting of a decent multi channel receiver and speaker package (5.1 or 6.1).

SACD's do sound good and considerably better than standard CD's...I also like DVD Audio.

Before anyone jumps on reasearch and what's on paper, I happen to work in the consumer electronics industry and get to meet with reps from various companies ranging from Sony, Denon, Sunfire, Yamaha, etc...everyone I ever spoke to has admitted off the record the same things I try to argue here from time to time, namely that MP3's suck and are unlisteneable, and that CD's, while good on paper, suck also. Most of them also happen to be music lovers themselves for the most part and many have substantial vinyl collections and high end turntable setups. These are people who can get their companiess technologies for FREE, but choose not to use it for themselves, even though they cannot admit this and must represent or sell their companies products.

Mark Levinson is a reputeable high end audio manufacturer that has been around for years. His stuff is not available at your local Best Buy or Circuit City, its real audio for people who take their listening seriously. Anything available in chain stores for the most part is garbage, including the small local chain I am associated with. The owner of my compnay will admit this off the record, but the mainstream stuff sells. Electronics manufacturers rely on hype marketing. The general public is fored to believe they need any new thing that comes out they need, because its in a magazine supported by advertising revenue from those manufactures or the gear was on the latest episode of MTV Cribs. Realize also, that many major brands are selling programs...a chain of stores sells so much of a certain brand or product and gets awarded in some way. This is why sales people push certain things, in some cases inferior products. Same goes for pro audio... at a Sam Ash or Guitar Center, the sales people will push a certain product, many times inferior to what you want, because that brand or line carries a better commission or additional bonus.

In high end audio, product designs won't change for years in some cases, with consumer mainstream audio, every year the hot new model comes out, just like with cars. It is all hype and illusion. Ps.

The flagg always goes up (no matter who it is) if the person who is "promoting" also sells the said item. In Marks case he custom builds the unit himself as a red rose product. Now that is not to say that what he says is not possible....."but"... and also for all we know he might have some kind of special relationship with SONY.

I am going to check into this further.

d

[ November 16, 2003, 11:18 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[Nick_G]

Thanks for the links David. I have looked at some of the titles available at Acoustic Sounds and although there wasn't anything that grabbed my attention it'll certainly be a useful site to check for any new releases.

Sooner or later there are bound to be more releases in more genres. Unless DVD-Audio steals the limelight...

[Brian]

Originally posted by david mancuso:
Mark Levinson: CD vs. SACD and LP:

Most music lovers feel that there is something wrong with the CD. Many prefer the sound of their LP's, or have cut down or stopped listening to music without even realizing why. Classical CD's aren't selling, while LP's of the same repertoire fetch hundreds of dollars a copy. People used to have 20 or 30 LP's and enjoy them, while now, people have hundreds or thousands of CD's which they rarely listen to, and almost never hear all the way through. What's going on?
The SACD stuff is interesting but his implication that the sound of the CD's is affecting the way people listen to music seems to neglect the obvious fact that music now competes with more forms of entertainment/distraction than it did in the days when vinyl was the main format .. the internet, video games, DVD's, hundreds of TV channels and Tivo .. etc etc.

[mick]

I'm not totally convinced about multichannel on a serious listening environment.
Nature gave us two hears like the stereophonic dual front loudspeakers setup... smile.gif
Here is a nice article from a good italian audio fanzine. Happy reading!
http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/realstereo_e.html
***
Peace!

[mdpm99]

David,

It remains to be seen whether SACD is accepted by the public, particularly because DVD Audio, a competing format in 5.1, is also being touted as an alternative format, supposedly better than CD. We must wait and see.

Alex Rosner

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by mick:
I'm not totally convinced about multichannel on a serious listening environment.
Nature gave us two hears like the stereophonic dual front loudspeakers setup... smile.gif
Here is a nice article from a good italian audio fanzine. Happy reading!
http://www.tnt-audio.com/topics/realstereo_e.html
***
Peace! Greetings Mick

Good point.....I totally agree with what you are saying.

d

3rd eye/3rd ear? ;)