please read with an open mind

[mdpm99]

America has come to a crossroads. You must understand that power is linked,
in world politics, to oil. And as the greatest industrial nation on the
Earth, America has an insatiable appetite for oil. When coal was the number
one energy in the world, Great Britain ruled the world. She had the greatest
deposits of coal. But when the power to move engines moved from coal to oil,
England and America began vying for control of the places on this Earth that
produce oil.

Who are the rogue states that America says she does not like, and lets see
how oil is connected here. I want you to consider Libya in North Africa.
This little desert country where most of the people live along the coast has
the sweetest crude oil. There’s a song we sing: From the halls of Montezuma to
the shores of Tripoli. Where’s Tripoli? We will fight our country’s battles
on the land and on the sea.
[barbary pirates, i know] What are you doing over here? Did these people
bother you? No. They have oil. America had military bases here. For what?
Oil! They had a king named Idriss and Muammar Gadhafi, as a young man in a
bloodless coup, overthrew the king and then kicked the British out, the
Americans out, and nationalized the oil. Now he could raise the standard of
living of all the Libyans, and with money left over he could aid the
liberation struggle of people all over the world. America got very upset
with that. Youre messing with us, Gadhafi. Youre a terrorist.

Iraq has a lot of oil, and next door is Iran which has lots of oil. In Iran,
there was a man by the name of Mohammad Mossadegh and he nationalized the
oil. He wanted to use the oil to raise the standard of living of the Iranian
people.

Whats wrong with that? Theres nothing wrong with that to our eyes, but
something was wrong with that to the eyes of the rich and the powerful. So
they organized a coup and overthrew him and placed a man on the throne called
the Shah of Iran, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. As that was their man in Iran, they
gave him weapons, modern planes, but he was a Muslim, but he was not deep in
the religion. So under him, the religion suffered. So the people that
wanted their religion to come back to purity started organizing. The leader
of that was Imam Khomeini.

Look at a map of the Middle Eastern part of the world. In Saudi Arabia, there
is a whole lot of oil. President [Franklin Delano] Roosevelt struck up a good
< relationship with the king, and Aramco [Corporation] had access to all this
oil. The kings lived well, they did well for their people, but there was no
democracy. America doesnt care anything about that, just keep pumping the oil.

Every one of us has somebody in our family that is a victim of drugs. Theres
something about a drug addictif its your son, if its your daughterthey become
artful liars. They can make up the fanciest stories just to get money to get
to the drug. If you dont give them the money, when you turn your back, your
fur coat is gone. When you turn your back this is gone, that is gone. They
become thieves and soon, if they get real bad, they become murderers.

America is an oil junkie. She doesnt care how she gets it, she must have it.

Did you know that they found the largest deposit of oil anywhere in the
world? Guess where they found it? In the southern Sudan. And what America is
trying to do is foster the revolution to break off the southern Sudan from
the Islamic regime in Khartoum so that America can have access to the oil.
But they say its them Moslems killing Christians, making slaves out of these
people in the South. America sent arms to Eritrea and Ethiopia and Uganda. So
all along the border of Sudan, war was started with the Sudan. But something
happened. Eritrea started using her weapons against Ethiopia, and vice versa.
So [Eritrea and Ethiopia] couldnt give the Sudan the trouble that America
wanted.

You dont know these things because you dont travel. You dont know these
things because youre not interested. You dont know these things because
foreign policy is not for the common American. And that we have to change. I
believe that if the American people knew, foreign policy [would reflect] that
which is better for the American people.

Lets go to Nigeria. Theres some sweet oil here. Do you know what America
tried to do? They tried to separate the eastern region and call it Biafra,
which started a civil war in Nigeria, causing thousands upon thousands of
lives to be lost because of American foreign policy. Lets go back to
Afghanistan. Do you see this place called Baku? Oil has been coming out of
this area for years and years. But the Soviet Union had control of the oil in
Kazakhstan, in Uzbekistan and in Tajikistan. All this area the Soviet Union
had.

Have you ever heard of Zbignew Brezinski? Zbignew got us in trouble. He was
the national security adviser under President Jimmy Carter. Guess what? Show
me Afghanistan. Did you know that in the city of Kabul, some 20 years ago,
the Muslims, women were in government, they were in school, they were in
medicine. But something was wrong with Afghanistan. Do you know what was
wrong? The government in Kabul leaned more toward the Soviet Union. They were
Muslims but they had a socialist leaning that America didnt like. So Zbignew
Brezinski and American policy sent money into Afghanistan to destabilize the
government in Kabul. When they brought up and paid for opposition to the
government in Kabul, Russia, the Soviet Union, sent their troops into
Afghanistan and the war began.

When the war started, Osama bin Laden was in Arabia growing up. He loves
Islam, he loves Muslims, he sees the Soviet Union taking over Afghanistan and
theres war in Afghanistan to get the Soviet Union out, and America says, Were
going to back those Muslim mujahideen. So American money and American weapons
trained them and they drove the Soviet Union out after ten years of war,
which left Afghanistan in ruins. Then they looked to America to help them,
but America backed out and left them in that condition and a civil war broke
out in Afghanistan. The country is already in ruins, now a civil war. Then
you have the Taliban that comes to power. And they want a pure Islamic state.

I read a book written by two Frenchman called, Osama bin Laden: The Forbidden
Truth. And they said that early on in the Bush administration he was
negotiating with the Taliban and he said [the Taliban] were a source of
stability. Why was he negotiating? Let me tell you. All of this, Kazakhstan,
Uzbekistan, this is oil. And guess what? A company called Unical owns 75
percent of the oil up here. And what they wanted was a pipeline to come down
through Afghanistan into Pakistan into the Arabian Sea, the Indian Ocean, as
an outlet for the oil of that area. The Taliban didnt agree.

Back in July, an American representative met with the Taliban, sometimes in
the UN, sometimes right in Peshawar, in Pakistan. The representative said
either you accept a carpet of gold or we will bury you under a carpet of
bombs. This was in July. Then came September 11, and now its Osama bin Laden.
The government didnt know anything about any terrorists the day before. But
on September 11, 12, and 13, they have 19 faces in the paper saying these are
the guys. When did you learn that? How did you learn that? Something is wrong
with this picture. Muslims and Arabs got all the blame and they went
immediately to the Congress beating the drums of war.

Do you want to know why people in the world hate America? You dont understand
the dirt that goes on in your name. And thats why the American people have to
be awakened. Am I upsetting? Im not trying to upset you. But now that theyve
destroyed the Taliban, Mr. Hamid Karzai, whom America set up, he now will get
the carpet of gold and lets see if that pipeline wont come through
Afghanistan. Its all about oil and power.

Therefore, the hatred for the American government and its policiesnot for the
American peopleis not subsiding, but increasing. If the United States attacks
Iraq, that hatred will only be worse and the cycle of violence that is now
seen in acts that are called terrorist acts will only increase.

We should be asking President Bush and the Congress, appealing to the
fairness of the American people, that before one American soldier should be
put in harms way, or one bomb dropped on Iraq, that there should and there
must be congressional hearings. That this proposed war be debated, and that
those who desire war with Iraq, put before the American people the reasons
that justify such action and allow the scholars and scientists who disagree
with the Administrations position to testify that the American people may
hear both sides of this question, and then prevail upon our representatives
in Congress to represent the will of the majority of the American people, and
not the will of any lobby, no matter how strong that lobby may be.

It would be just and appropriate if the Congress of the United States would
invite representatives of the Iraqi government to come before Congress of the
United States and defend themselves and their position.

In closing, no nation, no matter how powerful it may be, can sustain its
power if its evil outweighs its good and it exceeds the limits in the doing
of injustice. There is a force in nature that God has placed in this universe
that will move against an individual, a nation or a world when it exceeds the
limit and becomes unjust in its behavior. Such was the case of Pharaoh. Such
was the case of Rome and Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, Ancient Nineveh. We
must not allow such to be the case for the greatest and only remaining
superpower, the United States of America.

[ March 04, 2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[HML]

Wow!!!! :eek: That was DEEP !! Thank you very much david m. I am a staunch patriot and I do love America. But, if all the stuff you say is true, we are guilty of some seriously evil, dirty and lowdown sh*t. The analogy of the junky really drove home the point! We all know that a drug addict will say or do ANYTHING for that next fix... I know the U.S. struggles constantly to meet her demand for crude oil. Its kinda sad because I do not believe this country is inherently evil. But, to circumvent the enormous crisis an oil shortage would bring, I believe our government WILL use and HAS used any and all means necessary... Understand that it causes me great pain to admit this. But, you've presented the facts in a way that I cannot ignore or discount or rebut... I also agree that many (most) of us are completely in the dark concerning U.S. foreign policy. And that's the way our government likes it.

-HML

[The Buddy Love Show]

good post dave....many points have been covered by the likes of chomsky, barsamian and hitchens...but its nice to see a condensed version here

[dVine]

you read chomsky, buddy love?

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
you read chomsky, buddy love?i read everything...thats why i'm so ****ing brilliant

[dVine]

than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.how would you know what i've read?......ASSumption i suppose?...and why do you think that if i read it i would believe it ? another ASSumption..i subscribe to the Nation and National Review...what do you ASSume from that?

now siddown and shut the **** up, you ASSumer

Buddy Love

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.how would you know what i've read?......ASSumption i suppose?...and why do you think that if i read it i would believe it ? another ASSumption..i subscribe to the Nation and National Review...what do you ASSume from that?

now siddown and shut the **** up, you ASSumer

Buddy Love</font>[/QUOTE]ps...while chomsky is a brilliant linguist who's work has redefind the field; and also an amazing social theorist whos factual observations on politics, communication and world affirs are brilliant - he is NOT and has never claimed to be an economist so his views in said area can be taken as such...while i agree with samuelson numbers vis a vis theory, it would be nice to see a model which supports his theories

Buddy Love, BS Economics Hofstra University

[djmarbll]

Great post David. Gore Vidal shares some of the same info in his article in the Observer, Sunday 27th October 2002. What amazes me is that so many dangerously ignorant Americans are so pro-war, they don't even know what the war is about and why the U.S. has enemies in the first place. I've learned more about American foreign policy when I left America than when I'm here in America, which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by djmarbll:
, which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency

[dVine]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
, which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.

[dVine]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.how would you know what i've read?......ASSumption i suppose?...and why do you think that if i read it i would believe it ? another ASSumption..i subscribe to the Nation and National Review...what do you ASSume from that?

now siddown and shut the **** up, you ASSumer

Buddy Love</font>[/QUOTE]ps...while chomsky is a brilliant linguist who's work has redefind the field; and also an amazing social theorist whos factual observations on politics, communication and world affirs are brilliant - he is NOT and has never claimed to be an economist so his views in said area can be taken as such...while i agree with samuelson numbers vis a vis theory, it would be nice to see a model which supports his theories

Buddy Love, BS Economics Hofstra University</font>[/QUOTE]What views on econ are you talking about?
Ever listened to the spoken-word CD "Class War"? It essentially outlines how free trade has effectively lowered domestic wages by opening the US up to foreign labour markets, thereby forcing union to re-negotiate contracts at lower wages. Sounds like economics to me.

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
, which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.</font>[/QUOTE]we have plenty of foreign news publications in all the major cities of the u.s.a....because this country is a collection of foreigners..theres lso an invention called the internet...

as far as our education system..the rest of the world sends their people HERE...frigging commie

[dVine]

dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.

[dVine]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
, which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.</font>[/QUOTE]we have plenty of foreign news publications in all the major cities of the u.s.a....because this country is a collection of foreigners..theres lso an invention called the internet...

as far as our education system..the rest of the world sends their people HERE...frigging commie</font>[/QUOTE]new york is not "the USA". not everyone has access to the internet. USA today prints lies.

i'm talking education at the elementary/secondary levels. its bred a nation of sheep, run by wolves and financed by pigs.

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.how would you know what i've read?......ASSumption i suppose?...and why do you think that if i read it i would believe it ? another ASSumption..i subscribe to the Nation and National Review...what do you ASSume from that?

now siddown and shut the **** up, you ASSumer

Buddy Love</font>[/QUOTE]ps...while chomsky is a brilliant linguist who's work has redefind the field; and also an amazing social theorist whos factual observations on politics, communication and world affirs are brilliant - he is NOT and has never claimed to be an economist so his views in said area can be taken as such...while i agree with samuelson numbers vis a vis theory, it would be nice to see a model which supports his theories

Buddy Love, BS Economics Hofstra University</font>[/QUOTE]What views on econ are you talking about?
Ever listened to the spoken-word CD "Class War"? It essentially outlines how free trade has effectively lowered domestic wages by opening the US up to foreign labour markets, thereby forcing union to re-negotiate contracts at lower wages. Sounds like economics to me.</font>[/QUOTE]"the gross gdp of the entie southwest region of the usa is dependent upon migrant workers crossing the border in search of higher wages"

gee, that sounds like economics too...its also false

sounds like don't mean it is

ps obviously you're talking shit ..."wage slavery" is the view i'm talking about...obviously like a monkey you're pulling shit out of your ass and throwing it up on the wall to see if it sticks

don't blame me...YOU brought it up - try to follow YOUR OWN arguments - it aint that hard - just remember what YOU"RE talking about ( then again, if i weren't rhetoricizing i'd forget that dumb shit too)

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
, which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.</font>[/QUOTE]we have plenty of foreign news publications in all the major cities of the u.s.a....because this country is a collection of foreigners..theres lso an invention called the internet...

as far as our education system..the rest of the world sends their people HERE...frigging commie</font>[/QUOTE]new york is not "the USA". not everyone has access to the internet. USA today prints lies.

i'm talking education at the elementary/secondary levels. its bred a nation of sheep, run by wolves and financed by pigs.</font>[/QUOTE]where did i say "new york"...reading is fundamental dude...awwwwww you're having meltdown already

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.uh huh......so fabulous and yet still without a name...better get an endowment going son

[dVine]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
"the gross gdp of the entie southwest region of the usa is dependent upon migrant workers crossing the border in search of higher wages"

gee, that sounds like economics too...its also false
where did you get this from?

"entie" - chomsky doesn't hire editors anymore?

the gross GDP of the entire southwest region?

please, GDP = Consumption + Investment + Gov't Spending + Net Change in Imports.

You said this is false. Use the model above and explain yourself.

[dVine]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.uh huh......so fabulous and yet still without a name...better get an endowment going son</font>[/QUOTE]I stand on my own, no nead to flaunt my credentials or the publications I subscribe to.

And I would never be proud to publically state that I subscribe to "The Nation".

[ March 04, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: dVine ]

[dVine]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.uh huh......so fabulous and yet still without a name...better get an endowment going son</font>[/QUOTE]yeah, you could use it.

[dVine]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
, which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.</font>[/QUOTE]we have plenty of foreign news publications in all the major cities of the u.s.a....because this country is a collection of foreigners..theres lso an invention called the internet...

as far as our education system..the rest of the world sends their people HERE...frigging commie</font>[/QUOTE]new york is not "the USA". not everyone has access to the internet. USA today prints lies.

i'm talking education at the elementary/secondary levels. its bred a nation of sheep, run by wolves and financed by pigs.</font>[/QUOTE]where did i say "new york"...reading is fundamental dude...awwwwww you're having meltdown already</font>[/QUOTE]We're talking about the US education system. It sucks. Let's stay on point here.

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
"the gross gdp of the entie southwest region of the usa is dependent upon migrant workers crossing the border in search of higher wages"

where did you get this from?

"entie" - chomsky doesn't hire editors anymore?

the gross GDP of the entire southwest region?

please, GDP = Consumption + Investment + Gov't Spending + Net Change in Imports.

You said this is false. Use the model above and explain yourself.</font>[/QUOTE]"gee, that sounds like economics too...its also false"

was the above statement to subtle for you...damn..terrorist must be adding IQ lowering agents to the water

[dVine]

pretty slow there buddy holly

[Meridian]

Wonderful point of view. Well stated.

[dVine]

you're making absolutely no sense, it appears your command of the english language is not particularly strong.

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.uh huh......so fabulous and yet still without a name...better get an endowment going son</font>[/QUOTE]I stand on my own, no nead to flaunt my credentials or the publications I subscribe to.

And I would never be proud to publically state that I subscribe to "The Nation".</font>[/QUOTE]cause ya have no credentials "top 12 out of 20"..20 what????!!! lyin ass mofo...and if ya stood on your own why make the statement implying you were from a top twenty school.....i guess you figured we're just dumb ****s

since chomsky contributes to the Nation it also shows how full of shit you are too

keep talkin so i can keep pullin your pants down

[jsd540]

David thanks for this post. It is and should always be about seeing both sides of the coin.

Unforunately we are taught to blindly consume and blindly believe everything that gets giftwrapped by television and the press.

We have, as a nation become conditioned to conform and as a result we never try to find out the truth behind all the propaganda.

My 2 cents

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
you're making absolutely no sense, it appears your command of the english language is not particularly strong.i'm making plenty of sense if not let me break it down
1. you're a liar
2. ya don't know what you're talking about
3. you're one of those cats who supposedly are junior members coming to this board and looking for me...you pathetic name changing internet ASSumer...obviously i made ya look stupid in another name and ya aint learn nothin that time

hows that for my command of english...make sense to you?

[dVine]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.uh huh......so fabulous and yet still without a name...better get an endowment going son</font>[/QUOTE]I stand on my own, no nead to flaunt my credentials or the publications I subscribe to.

And I would never be proud to publically state that I subscribe to "The Nation".</font>[/QUOTE]cause ya have no credentials "top 12 out of 20"..20 what????!!! lyin ass mofo...and if ya stood on your own why make the statement implying you were from a top twenty school.....i guess you figured we're just dumb ****s

since chomsky contributes to the Nation it also shows how full of shit you are too

keep talkin so i can keep pullin your pants down</font>[/QUOTE]It doesn't mean shit that chomsky writes for the Nation because he doesn't write the editorials, know what i'm saying?

And please give me the chance to prove my academic pedigree. Your opinion means so much. I'll do anything.

And btw, the only pants you're 'pullin' are your own cuz you've exposed yourself for the ASSumer you are, biznatch.

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.ps...analyze this statement...you're saying that there are 20 economics departments IN THE WORLD

busted as a liar

i bet your ass dropped out of the quick pickin home guitar course

[dVine]

http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/ranking.html

[dVine]

oh and your boy banned me for making you cry.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Dvine..I see you are supposedly a new member. It also seems in the 2 threads I have seen you on that you are going after Buddy Love. Warning Number 1.

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
oh and your boy banned me for making you cry.damn i should be a ****ing mind reader...i done pulled your card and you confirm it....

damn..i wish i could be a sorry sack of shit too

[dVine]

Timmy, he called me a sack of shit!!!

wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by dVine:
Timmy, he called me a sack of shit!!!

wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!actually i said i wished i could be a sorry sack of shit too....i never mentioned who the sack which i wished to emulate was, but i can understand any self referential feelings to said sack which you might have

hows that for command of the english language

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Dvine...after some investigation it looks like you are 2121. It also looks like you are starting off where you left off...That'll be 1 more week for you. One more time and it is permanent

[mdpm99]

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts. ... Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. " -- Bertrand Russell

[Friday]

Originally posted by david mancuso:
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts. ... Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. " -- Bertrand RussellThat is so true graemlins/jpshakehead.gif unfortunately......

[mdpm99]

greetings girlfriday..... smile.gif

and thank you all who responded "with an open mind"

;)

d

[Friday]

greetings David ;)

Unfortunately, most do not require the impact of an open mind.
In order to think, one must dwelve deep into thier own fears and realize that the feelings they have created is only but a representation of what they want to see. When one forgets his/her feelings they begin to see the truth of what is.

Thank you for the post.

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by girlfriday:
greetings David ;)

Unfortunately, most do not require the impact of an open mind.
In order to think, one must dwelve deep into thier own fears and realize that the feelings they have created is only but a representation of what they want to see. When one forgets his/her feelings they begin to see the truth of what is.

Thank you for the post.smile.gif

d

[lesysteme]

great post david.

its good to see ppl passing around the real stories and issues.

we can hope that through venues such as this board we can get more ppl to realize that these issues arent as cut and dry as this administration is trying to make this out to be.

We can get down but in knowledge we are strong and gain more strength when the word starts to get out. We are all informed intelligent ppl here, so as we branch out from this forum, hopefully we take the things we discuss here to others.

[lesysteme]

and lets remember too that:

we the ppl are not a focus group and the UN is not a debating society.

Dont let these words of contempt go unanswered.

[simon b]

Great post David.

[mercado]

1nce again
thanks david
I read a protest sign a few weeks ago that said
"How did our Oil get under their sand?"

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by david mancuso:
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts. ... Many people would sooner die than think; in fact, they do so. " -- Bertrand RussellWow David!!!
The quotes you post are always fantastic. In fact, I write them in my notes. Thanks for bringing sanity back to the thread. ;)

[Bold Soul]

Thank you for offering points that should be validated by those interested through research and judicious thinking.

Hmmm...isn't Vinyl made from oil? http://deephousepage.com/smilies/scratchchin.gif

I, for one, require sources of information that can be validated and a sense of logic that can be examined before I make judgements. I believe you have earnestly presented a view. Your sincerity is always apparent in all of your posts. I will allow that sincerity to inspire me to look into the views you presented further. It is my responsibility as a free-thinking human being to seek the opposing view in order to have balance as I formulate my judgement.

I fear that too many people resolved to agree with your views at the moment they saw it came from David Mancuso.
http://deephousepage.com/smilies/scratchchin.gif

[ March 05, 2003, 01:48 AM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
I fear that too many people resolved to agree with your views at the moment they saw it came from David Mancuso.I resolved to agree as soon as I saw the word "Chomsky".

[darrow]

Farrakhan definitely has a way with words. Interesting post.

[flypitcher]

"There is a force in nature that God has placed in this universe
that will move against an individual, a nation or a world when it exceeds the
limit and becomes unjust in its behavior."

Mahatama Mancuso has spoken ;)

[jurren]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Thank you for offering points that should be validated by those interested through research and judicious thinking.

Hmmm...isn't Vinyl made from oil? http://deephousepage.com/smilies/scratchchin.gifi might be reading something here that's not really there, but i'll respond the way i read it.

the fact that iraq or any other country in the world for that matter has control over the oil coming from their own soil in no way means that a shortage of oil will appear for the usa or any other country. it on the other hand will mean that the country itself gets a 'fair' price for the oil, and the benefits of having control over the oil will go to that country. look at libia, one of the wheltiest countries in northern africa.

i read a couple of weeks ago people from the us complaining about gasprices. $2.00 per gallon? in europe you pay about euro 1.20 per liter! [one gallon is about 4.5 liter -> european price per gallon in dollars is somewhere between $5.50 and $6.00!]

so yes, americans loss of control over oil will raise the prices of gas, etc in the usa. but it will also create a more equal divide of economic stability all over the world. and maybe us carcompanies will create cars that use even less gas, which will reduce polution. [the us is responsible for 60% of the worlds polution...]

so this is more a question whether you are willing to lose a small part of your financial position, so that another group of people will see a substantial increase of their wealth; or is your personal position so important that you don't give a **** about anyone else?

jurren

[Cheddar]

Good post D.
For the some of the rest...it is very alarming that Americans need some one of credence or public stature to speak for us to listen.
While some have been sharing these views since 9-11-01..we have met with nothing but sour grapes.

[Drrtynewyork]

FINALLY

[lola desire]

david - great post. lots of information here that the pro-war folks aren't even talking about, nor would want to admit. instead, the powers-that-be play the media shell game with the american public.

[Drrtynewyork]

im glad someone can post the truth and not get attacked :D

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by DOUG GOMEZ:
im glad someone can post the truth and not get attacked :D You really don't see the difference, do you? I bet you sure as hell didn't spend your 2 days off in a library.

[lola desire]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Hmmm...isn't Vinyl made from oil? http://deephousepage.com/smilies/scratchchin.gifi'm sure the record industry isn't putting nearly as much of a dent in oil consumption as are the growing number of suv's on the road.

[Drrtynewyork]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DOUG GOMEZ:
im glad someone can post the truth and not get attacked :D You really don't see the difference, do you? I bet you sure as hell didn't spend your 2 days off in a library.</font>[/QUOTE]keep believing what you want

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by DOUG GOMEZ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DOUG GOMEZ:
im glad someone can post the truth and not get attacked :D You really don't see the difference, do you? I bet you sure as hell didn't spend your 2 days off in a library.</font>[/QUOTE]keep believing what you want</font>[/QUOTE]Keep believing bullshit.

[Drrtynewyork]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DOUG GOMEZ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DOUG GOMEZ:
im glad someone can post the truth and not get attacked :D You really don't see the difference, do you? I bet you sure as hell didn't spend your 2 days off in a library.</font>[/QUOTE]keep believing what you want</font>[/QUOTE]Keep believing bullshit.</font>[/QUOTE]as i remember you were the one that wrote.. "my god jews do suck"...as your webpage says follow you penis to the land of enchantment, im sure its smarter than the other head LMAO

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by DOUG GOMEZ:
as i remember you were the one that wrote.. "my god jews do suck"Man, you really are just not that smart, are you?

Thanks for checking out the webpage, though!

[Drrtynewyork]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DOUG GOMEZ:
as i remember you were the one that wrote.. "my god jews do suck"Man, you really are just not that smart, are you?

Thanks for checking out the webpage, though!</font>[/QUOTE]anyway i'll leave it at that, dont want to hurt anothers feelings lmao

[formerly known as kenspank]

somebody should send that essay to that asshole at nightline ted koppel. he had that "town meeting" yesterday and his pro-war panelists were talking out the side of their necks.

[djdub63]

David, once again thank you for your insightful posts! Keep them comming.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by jurren:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Thank you for offering points that should be validated by those interested through research and judicious thinking.

Hmmm...isn't Vinyl made from oil? http://deephousepage.com/smilies/scratchchin.gifi might be reading something here that's not really there, but i'll respond the way i read it.

the fact that iraq or any other country in the world for that matter has control over the oil coming from their own soil in no way means that a shortage of oil will appear for the usa or any other country. it on the other hand will mean that the country itself gets a 'fair' price for the oil, and the benefits of having control over the oil will go to that country. look at libia, one of the wheltiest countries in northern africa.

i read a couple of weeks ago people from the us complaining about gasprices. $2.00 per gallon? in europe you pay about euro 1.20 per liter! [one gallon is about 4.5 liter -> european price per gallon in dollars is somewhere between $5.50 and $6.00!]

so yes, americans loss of control over oil will raise the prices of gas, etc in the usa. but it will also create a more equal divide of economic stability all over the world. and maybe us carcompanies will create cars that use even less gas, which will reduce polution. [the us is responsible for 60% of the worlds polution...]

so this is more a question whether you are willing to lose a small part of your financial position, so that another group of people will see a substantial increase of their wealth; or is your personal position so important that you don't give a **** about anyone else?

jurren</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry Jurren...you didn't get that from me. You may want to go back and read my original post.

I'm being stalked by peace-lovers. How exciting. :rolleyes:

[Monny JcIntosh]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:

I'm being stalked by peace-lovers. How exciting. :rolleyes: Not just them, Bold Soul. Unless I read you wrongly, what you've said cuts both ways.

Edit: Oops, I mean on the torture thread.

[ March 05, 2003, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Jonny McIntosh ]

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:

I'm being stalked by peace-lovers. How exciting. :rolleyes: Not just them, Bold Soul. Unless I read you wrongly, what you've said cuts both ways.</font>[/QUOTE]It was MEANT TO cut both ways.

No one understands anything except heresay judgements, half-formed opinions from half-baked sources and misinformation. The pro-war, pro-USA crowd is guilty of this and the anti-war, anti-USA crowd is too. Just because you claim you are for peace doesn't make you any less guilty of spreading misinformation.

No dis to David, who I believe presented a sincere arguement, but forgive me if I want to dig a bit deeper than the opinion of my favorite DJ before I start burning flags.

I have seen my posts on this subject half-quoted, twisted and turned inside out to prove points I originally did not make. Shit -if you can't trust bong-hitting bedroom DJs not to distort your words, how can I trust ANYONE?

[ March 05, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Monny JcIntosh]

Then I read you right. Calm down. ;)

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
Then I read you right. Calm down. ;) I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. mad1.gif ;)

[U]

Great post David!

[Friday]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
Then I read you right. Calm down. ;) I'm sick and tired of being sick and tired. mad1.gif ;) </font>[/QUOTE]try happiness ;) old grumpy one graemlins/rofl.gif

[darrow]

I think Farrakhan's article is interesting from a different perspective. His article (can be found at The Final Call - Online Edition (http://www.finalcall.com/columns/mlf/mlf_iraq09-17-2002.html)) is titled "Is Oil the Motive for War?", but he doesn't QUITE come out and say "yes" in the article. He presents certain items and allows the reader (or listener) to connect the dots and draw conclusions.

I wonder if that tactic was done on purpose? I would assume so. Farrakhan is a great orator and a smart man and probably understands very well how delivery and content of a speech can have powerful effects. Let people draw their own conclusions; don't beat them over the head with your own.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by darrow:
Let people draw their own conclusions; don't beat them over the head with your own.Thank you for pointing this out.

One has to want others to draw their own conclusions. Most do not. Most want others to adopt their conclusions.

[jurren]

to Bold Soul:
i just used your post, because i often get the feeling that when people are talking about who's controlling the oil the often think it's either you have unlimited access to those resources, or you have no access whatsoever. [wasn't directed at you, but you allready got that.]

i do agree that no one truly understands all the factors of this issue [neither the pro-war, nor the anti-war-people] i even often notice a complete lack of even listening to the other side's arguments is more prevelant at the anti-war camp. i myself am in principle against war against iraq, but the downside of that stance is that the UN loses it's power, so when thinking about that my thoughts shift towards the pro-un-interference in iraq.

it's just that sometimes i read posts on this board that are showing so much ignorance, that i just can't help to give my opinion.

jurren

[lesysteme]

also lets keep in mind that Canada is indeed the largest supplier of petrolium and energy products to the US.. (refined oil, crude and nat gas)..the middle east has the highest supply of crude..hence the need for their product by ppl like exxon/mobil etc etc

I would like to state that i feel the inspectors should be given the chance to complete their job..then report back to the UN...if they say "iraq is in non complience with the resolutions" then the UN can assemble a force to deal with Iraq...the UN has always left this option on the table..but this administration says thats not good enough because they know time is of the essence if they want to get their regime change plans in order.

rememebr GWB said in the 2000 elections that the US should have a "humble foreign policy" approach...so much for election promises.

[lola desire]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by darrow:
Let people draw their own conclusions; don't beat them over the head with your own.Thank you for pointing this out.

One has to want others to draw their own conclusions. Most do not. Most want others to adopt their conclusions.</font>[/QUOTE]i don't think there is anything wrong with agreeing with someone who shares similar ideas.

i understand the point you all are trying to make. this is the exact issue that i have had with tavis smiley. i agree that people should think and process the information the receive, regardless of the sorce.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by jurren:
to Bold Soul:
i just used your post, because i often get the feeling that when people are talking about who's controlling the oil the often think it's either you have unlimited access to those resources, or you have no access whatsoever. [wasn't directed at you, but you allready got that.]

i do agree that no one truly understands all the factors of this issue [neither the pro-war, nor the anti-war-people] i even often notice a complete lack of even listening to the other side's arguments is more prevelant at the anti-war camp. i myself am in principle against war against iraq, but the downside of that stance is that the UN loses it's power, so when thinking about that my thoughts shift towards the pro-un-interference in iraq.

it's just that sometimes i read posts on this board that are showing so much ignorance, that i just can't help to give my opinion.

jurrenI also share these sentiments. What I find most alarming is how life and death and destruction and military occupation is seemingly intangible. As if it is currency that our leaders can spend without regret. As if George Bush and his administration, regardless of my personal opinions, isn't human, doesn't fear the death of human beings. What nonsense is this?!

Everyone involved in this is human. EVERYONE...not just the poor Iraqis or the poor Arabs...EVERYONE, including those who may be sending Americans off to war.

People say "No War for Oil", knowing full well that they can't do without oil, no would they ever want to. And since they don't have to go off and fight for still murky and unknown reasons, holding picket signs and shouting insults are fine with them.

Picket signs full of superlatives that have no relation to decisions they themselves will never have to make and consequences they will never have to face.

Where were the picket signs for the erosion of Equal Opportunity in this country? Where are the picket signs for the gov't programs that are being eliminated that keep past Veterans out of the wheelchairs they need, that deny welfare families the basics necessary to wean themselves from public assistance? Where were the picket signs when Faith Based Initiatives were passed in Congress, basically eliminating a large percentage of gov't funding to secular organizations that make a difference in the inner cities in America? Where were the picket signs for the massive consolidation in world media that eliminated fair and accurate reporting free of corporate agenda?

There weren't any, because the shit wasn't fashionable to protest against, that's why! The peace movement is a middle-class bougeiose enterprise, supported by a two-faced media that wants to sell newspapers on both sides of the street. And everyone who drives their SUV to the rally and pulls out their digital camera to take pictures has blood on their hands.

The real issues that keep me, a lifelong American, from the opportunities and rights I deserve are still in place, but they get no facetime from our peaceniks.

I can't remember which founding father said it, but the gist of my point is this - "One cannot lead a Nation through concensus but coercion."

That about sums it up for me.

[mdpm99]

Again, thank you all for your responses

smile.gif

d

[lyot]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jurren:
to Bold Soul:
i just used your post, because i often get the feeling that when people are talking about who's controlling the oil the often think it's either you have unlimited access to those resources, or you have no access whatsoever. [wasn't directed at you, but you allready got that.]

i do agree that no one truly understands all the factors of this issue [neither the pro-war, nor the anti-war-people] i even often notice a complete lack of even listening to the other side's arguments is more prevelant at the anti-war camp. i myself am in principle against war against iraq, but the downside of that stance is that the UN loses it's power, so when thinking about that my thoughts shift towards the pro-un-interference in iraq.

it's just that sometimes i read posts on this board that are showing so much ignorance, that i just can't help to give my opinion.

jurrenI also share these sentiments. What I find most alarming is how life and death and destruction and military occupation is seemingly intangible. As if it is currency that our leaders can spend without regret. As if George Bush and his administration, regardless of my personal opinions, isn't human, doesn't fear the death of human beings. What nonsense is this?!

Everyone involved in this is human. EVERYONE...not just the poor Iraqis or the poor Arabs...EVERYONE, including those who may be sending Americans off to war.

People say "No War for Oil", knowing full well that they can't do without oil, no would they ever want to. And since they don't have to go off and fight for still murky and unknown reasons, holding picket signs and shouting insults are fine with them.

Picket signs full of superlatives that have no relation to decisions they themselves will never have to make and consequences they will never have to face.

Where were the picket signs for the erosion of Equal Opportunity in this country? Where are the picket signs for the gov't programs that are being eliminated that keep past Veterans out of the wheelchairs they need, that deny welfare families the basics necessary to wean themselves from public assistance? Where were the picket signs when Faith Based Initiatives were passed in Congress, basically eliminating a large percentage of gov't funding to secular organizations that make a difference in the inner cities in America? Where were the picket signs for the massive consolidation in world media that eliminated fair and accurate reporting free of corporate agenda?

There weren't any, because the shit wasn't fashionable to protest against, that's why! The peace movement is a middle-class bougeiose enterprise, supported by a two-faced media that wants to sell newspapers on both sides of the street. And everyone who drives their SUV to the rally and pulls out their digital camera to take pictures has blood on their hands.

The real issues that keep me, a lifelong American, from the opportunities and rights I deserve are still in place, but they get no facetime from our peaceniks.

I can't remember which founding father said it, but the gist of my point is this - "One cannot lead a Nation through concensus but coercion."

That about sums it up for me.</font>[/QUOTE]i respect your opinion Bold Soul, but history will prove you or me right whether protesting against war is a rightfull "issue" or not.. I think this issue is far more important then the issues you are referring to (although they too are important!)..I personally never felt the urge to come out on the streets and to protest for anything (except when I was still studying)..
I truly understand self interest is the basis of international politics. Through 'Realpolitics', things are decided on the international level. but what's happening on this moment - and I'm convinced you don't need perfect information to see this- is that the system is getting totally out of balance with the way the US deals with this crisis.. You might not look upon it as 'an issue', but I fear the consequences of this 'brave' policy. As citizen of this worldcommunity, i can not accept it and have to voice my dissent.

peace

[Bold Soul]

For heaven's sake, will everyone here please stop regarding my words as an admonition of protest or resistence!!! I have made no remarks to that regard.

Way too much projecting on the part of those who have "disagreed" with me - which I believe proves my point to some degree.

It is as easy to be swept up in the anti-war brouhaha as it is to be swept up in the pro-war/the USA is noble brouhaha.

Conscious thinking is the responsibility of us all. Just because you preach pacifism doesn't mean your thinking shouldn't be aggressive.

[ March 05, 2003, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[konbit]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:

People say "No War for Oil", knowing full well that they can't do without oil, no would they ever want to. And since they don't have to go off and fight for still murky and unknown reasons, holding picket signs and shouting insults are fine with them.

Picket signs full of superlatives that have no relation to decisions they themselves will never have to make and consequences they will never have to face.

Where were the picket signs for the erosion of Equal Opportunity in this country? Where are the picket signs for the gov't programs that are being eliminated that keep past Veterans out of the wheelchairs they need, that deny welfare families the basics necessary to wean themselves from public assistance? Where were the picket signs when Faith Based Initiatives were passed in Congress, basically eliminating a large percentage of gov't funding to secular organizations that make a difference in the inner cities in America? Where were the picket signs for the massive consolidation in world media that eliminated fair and accurate reporting free of corporate agenda?

There weren't any, because the shit wasn't fashionable to protest against, that's why! The peace movement is a middle-class bougeiose enterprise, supported by a two-faced media that wants to sell newspapers on both sides of the street. And everyone who drives their SUV to the rally and pulls out their digital camera to take pictures has blood on their hands.

The real issues that keep me, a lifelong American, from the opportunities and rights I deserve are still in place, but they get no facetime from our peaceniks.
I disagree with a lot of your arguments, but whole-heartedly agree with the above statements. If the ammount of man hours that went into one of these meaningless protests went into one good cause, maybe they could actually make this world a little better. Or, if they want to stop the war...they would be better served by using their time and energy on getting people with similar ideologies to vote. But, then again, that would be too much like real work...

The irony of seeing the huge environmental disaster (trash everywhere!) left in the wake of the NY protest did not escape me.

[mdpm99]

You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war.
Albert Einstein

[mdpm99]

.

[ March 06, 2003, 12:20 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]