Message from England on going to War.............

[Basecore Boy]

MESSAGE FROM ENGLAND
>
>No matter what your views on President Bush's statement of an upcoming
>war, this, from an English journalist, is very interesting. Just a word
>of background, for those of you who aren't familiar with the UK's Daily
>Mirror. This is a notoriously left-wing daily, that is normally not
>supportive of the Colonials across the Atlantic.
>
>Tony Parsons Daily Mirror September 11, 2002
>
>One year ago, the world witnessed a unique kind of broadcasting the mass
>murder of thousands, live on television. As a lesson in the pitiless
>cruelty of the human race, September 11 was up there with Pol Pot's
>Mountain of Skulls in Cambodia, or the skeletal bodies stacked like
>garbage in the Nazi concentration camps. An unspeakable act so cruel, so
>calculated and so utterly merciless that surely the world could agree,
>on one thing - nobody deserves this fate.
>
>Surely there could be a consensus: The victims were truly innocent, the
>perpetrators truly evil. But to the world's eternal shame, 9/11 is
>increasingly seen as America'scomeuppance. Incredibly, anti-Americanism
>has increased over the last year. There has always been a simmering
>resentment to the USA in this country; too loud, too rich, too full of
>themselves,
>and so much happier than Europeans - but it has become an epidemic.
>And it seems incredible to me. More than that, it turns my stomach.
>
>America is this country's greatest friend and our staunchest ally. We are
>bonded to the US by culture, language and blood. Have all of you
>forgotten???
>
>
>A little over half a century ago, around half a million Americans died
>for our freedoms, as well as their own. Have we forgotten so soon? And
>exactly a year ago, thousands of ordinary men, women and children - not
>just Americans, but from dozens of countries, were butchered by a small
>group of religious fanatics!. Are we so quick to betray them? What
>touched the heart about those who died in the Twin Towers and on the
>planes, was that we recognized them.
>
>Young fathers and mothers, somebody's son and somebody's daughter,
>husbands,wives, and children, some yet unborn. And these people brought
>it on themselves?? Their nation is to blame for their meticulously
>planned slaughter?? These days you don't have to be some dust-encrusted
>nut job in Kabul or Karachi or Finsbury Park, to see America as the
>Great Satan. The anti-American alliance is made up of self-loathing
>liberals who blame the Americans for every ill in the Third World, and
>conservatives suffering from power-envy, bitter that the world's only
>superpower can do what it likes without having to ask permission.
>
>The truth is that America has behaved with enormous restraint since
>September 11. Remember, remember - Remember the gut-wrenching tapes of
>weeping men phoning their wives to say, "I love you," just before they
>were burned alive. Remember those people leaping to their deaths from
>the top of burning skyscrapers. Remember the hundreds of firemen buried
>alive. Remember the smiling face of that beautiful little girl who was
>on one of the planes with her mum.
>
>Remember, remember - And realize that America has never retaliated for
>9/11 in anything like the way it could have. So a few al-Qaeda tourists
got
>
>locked up without a trial in Camp X-ray? Pass the Kleenex...So some
>Afghan wedding receptions were shot up after they merrily fired their
>semi-automatics in a sky full of American planes? A shame, but maybe
>next time, they should stick to confetti.
>
>AMERICA could have turned a large chunk of the world, into a debris
>filled parking lot. That it didn't, is a sign of strength. American
>voices are already being raised against attacking Iraq - that's what a
>democracy is for. How many in the Islamic world will have a minute's
>silence for the slaughtered innocents of 9/11? How many Islamic leaders
>will have the guts to say that the mass murder of 9/11 was an
>abomination?
>
>When the news of 9/11 broke on the West Bank, those freedom-loving
>Palestinians were dancing in the street. America watched all of that -
>and didn't push the button. We should thank the stars that America is the
>most powerful nation in the world. I still find it incredible that 9/11
>did not provoke all-out war. Not a "war on terrorism." A real war.
>
>The fundamentalist dudes are talking about "opening the gates of hell,"
>if America attacks Iraq. Well, America could have opened the gates of
>hell, like you wouldn't believe. The US is the most militarily powerful
>nation that ever strode the face of the earth. The campaign in
Afghanistan!
>may have been less than perfect and the planned war on Iraq may be
>misconceived.
>
>But don't blame America for not bringing peace and light to these
>wretched countries. How many democracies are there in the Middle East,
>or in the Muslim world?? You can count them on the fingers of one hand -
>assuming you haven't had any chopped off for minor shoplifting.
>
>I love America, yet America is hated. I guess that makes me Bush's
>poodle. But I would rather be a dog in New York City than a Prince in
>Riyadh.
>
>Above all, America is hated because it is what every country wants to be
>- rich, free, strong, open, optimistic. Not ground down by the past, or
>religion, or some caste system.
>
>America is the best friend this country ever had and we should start
>remembering that. Or do you really think the USA is the root of all
>evil? Tell it to the loved ones of the men and women who leaped to their
>death from the burning towers. Tell it to the nursing mothers whose
>husbands died on one of the hijacked planes, or were ripped apart in a
>collapsing skyscraper. And tell it to the hundreds of young widows whose
>husbands worked for the New York Fire Department.
>
>To our shame, George Bush gets worse press than Saddam Hussein. Once we
>were told that Saddam gassed the Kurds, tortured his own people and set
>up rape-camps in Kuwait. Now we are told he likes Quality Street. Save
>me the orange center, Oh Mighty One!
>
>Remember, remember, September 11 - One of the greatest atrocities in
>human history was committed against America. No, Do more than remember;
>never, never forget! And please pass this on. Lets make sure that
>people all over the World read this. Thanks!!!

[erd]

Sorry, but that is pure polemics.

Peace,

Gerd

[Jolyon]

That's Tony Parsons for you. Wrong as usual.

[Basecore Boy]

I lost a good friend on 9/11 and I think that America media did not allow Americans to view the horrible things that happen there. Don't forget what happen, because the next time could be greater.

GOD BLESS AMERICA.

I will never forget for my friend!

[Red D]

Joseph Goebbels couldn't have said it better...

Unbelievable how few people can look at this from different angles.

RD

[Basecore Boy]

I love America and you should too. Because what you say here, wouldn't happen in Irag or with the Taliban regime.

Your views would be put to death. Wake up folks!

We are so use to being safe to go on living the good life, we forget that others around the world are not so fortunate.

[Jolyon]

Why did America sell arms to Iraq and Iran?

[Jolyon]

OOps, and I forgot, Bin Laden too (through the CIA).

[ngeso]

We are so use to being safe to go on living the good life, we forget that others around the world are not so fortunate. [/QB]so we put them to death instead! makes sense?

peace. ngeso.

[Basecore Boy]

The same reason why other countries do?

[Basecore Boy]

Originally posted by ngeso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />We are so use to being safe to go on living the good life, we forget that others around the world are not so fortunate. so we put them to death instead! makes sense?

peace. ngeso. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]If someone is out to kill you, what would you do? Wait till they find you or will you go looking for them?

[Jolyon]

Britain has a shameful history of selling arms to dictators too.

Basecore - who sold Saddam those chemical agents? Your country did and so did mine. And now we're bombing him for having them. Crazy world.

[Basecore Boy]

We made the mistake of thinking that helping him would get rid of Iran regime. We really phuck up on that one. No doubt.

[Jolyon]

Basecore. Can you tell me how Saddam is going to attack America? Why hasn't he done it before? Because he can't. Saddam has been contained for 12 years. If we pursued peace through the United Nations he could be disarmed without having to bomb the shit out of the poor innocent people of Iraq.

There is no link between Saddam and Bin Laden. Not a single shread of reliable evidence. For a start, Iraq is secular. Bin Laden's gangsters are muslim extremists.

[Jolyon]

P.S. American companies sold arms to Iran too!

[Monny JcIntosh]

You aren't going to war because Saddam Hussein is out to kill you. You are going to war because he has weapons of mass destruction, just nobody's been able to prove it quite yet.

[Basecore Boy]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
Basecore. Can you tell me how Saddam is going to attack America? Why hasn't he done it before? Because he can't. Saddam has been contained for 12 years. If we pursued peace through the United Nations he could be disarmed without having to bomb the shit out of the poor innocent people of Iraq.

There is no link between Saddam and Bin Laden. Not a single shread of reliable evidence. For a start, Iraq is secular. Bin Laden's gangsters are muslim extremists. We would have said the same thing before 9/11. Nobody can attack America. Wake up, we don't have force shields around us.

The hate for America is growing and they really think we are punks and won't die for what we believe in. If Saddam gives any of those chemical agents to terrorist, 9/11 will look like a cartoon compared to what could happen. Hundreds of thousands dead. I'm not willing to sit and let this just happen to us again.

[Jolyon]

Bombing Iraq will make even more people hate America (by the way I'm talking about the American political/military class not the American people).

[Basecore Boy]

Did you guys know more Muslim cleric from the region are coming out saying this is a jus war. They are now not scared to say what they really feel, about him killing his own people. They say if he can do this, than what do you think he will do to Americans.

Saddam is thug and must be dealt with.

[ngeso]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ngeso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />We are so use to being safe to go on living the good life, we forget that others around the world are not so fortunate. so we put them to death instead! makes sense?

peace. ngeso. </font>[/QUOTE]If someone is out to kill you, what would you do? Wait till they find you or will you go looking for them? [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]sorry, but i cannot make the connection from Twin Towers (via Bin Laden, Afghanistan, Taliban, CIA, KGB, the Saudis, Iraq, Iran, because of oil, because of axes of evil by american reckoning, despite of North Korea, despite the occupied West Bank, etc. etc. etc.) to Saddam Hussein and come to the conclusion that people in Bagdhad should die.

to this day there is no conclusive evidence. none.

peace. ngeso.

[Red D]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
Did you guys know more Muslim cleric from the region are coming out saying this is a jus war. They are now not scared to say what they really feel, about him killing his own people. They say if he can do this, than what do you think he will do to Americans.

Saddam is thug and must be dealt with. And Bush and his buddies are a threat to world peace and should be dealt with as well, if you do not see that this discussion is already over.

RD

[Red D]

And another thing, I hardly see the views of a Daily Mirror journalist as 'a message from England'...

There's the result of US media, a childish generalizing of people, religions and facts.

RD

PS No disrespect intended Basecore Boy, but your views are narrowed and flawed by what your media is telling you. And they shouldn't be, because the DHP has more views and more open-minded people than any media.

[Basecore Boy]

I listen to all, but I will make my on choices in life. Some people follow what is popular, but that's not me.

I will never forget that day of 9/11 from my window in Woodbridge,NJ. Watching the Towers go down and trying to call friends that I knew worked there and the surrounding area.

People may look at this differently than me and that's ok. But, I care about my family and friends.

GOOD BLESS AMERICA, MY HOME SWEET HOME.

[lyot]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jolyon:
Basecore. Can you tell me how Saddam is going to attack America? Why hasn't he done it before? Because he can't. Saddam has been contained for 12 years. If we pursued peace through the United Nations he could be disarmed without having to bomb the shit out of the poor innocent people of Iraq.

There is no link between Saddam and Bin Laden. Not a single shread of reliable evidence. For a start, Iraq is secular. Bin Laden's gangsters are muslim extremists. We would have said the same thing before 9/11. Nobody can attack America. Wake up, we don't have force shields around us.

The hate for America is growing and they really think we are punks and won't die for what we believe in. If Saddam gives any of those chemical agents to terrorist, 9/11 will look like a cartoon compared to what could happen. Hundreds of thousands dead. I'm not willing to sit and let this just happen to us again. </font>[/QUOTE]First of all, I want to quote former British minister Cook (speech before the House of Commons) : "you cannot basee your military strategy on the assumption that Saddam is weak, AND at the same time justify pre-emptive action on the claim that he's a threat. If Saddam would be a real threat, do you really think the US would attack (cf. N-Korea).

Second; The hate is not gonna diminish when the US decides to attack Iraq unilaterally. I predict the opposite is goin' to happen in the Middle East. Yet, the HATE should be the issue in the war against terror.

Third. The biggest terrorist attack in history was undertaken with cutters and planes. There were no chemical, biological or nuclear agents involved. What i'm trying to say is : you don't stop people from hating you by bombing them..Fight the hate, not the means with which people attack you..


peace

[Friday]

ok, whose blowing who? graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[Basecore Boy]

Funny.

How often in your life have you tried to make friends with someone that did not want to be your friend.

Some people are being taught to hate us daily. Brain washing in the schools.

Sometimes you can work all your life trying to make friends and it never happens.

[Leslie]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
I listen to all, but I will make my on choices in life. Some people follow what is popular, but that's not me.

I will never forget that day of 9/11 from my window in Woodbridge,NJ. Watching the Towers go down and trying to call friends that I knew worked there and the surrounding area.

People may look at this differently than me and that's ok. But, I care about my family and friends.

GOOD BLESS AMERICA, MY HOME SWEET HOME. I think you'll get more respect for your view when you are able to link Saddam directly with 9/11. Baby Bush hasn't done it yet. In the meantime, if you are so passionate about your position (which you you seem to be and that's fine) why don't you seek out some ALTERNATIVE news sources other than the nightly news. I don't think you are able to understand that you are being fed propaganda. If you are basing everything you say on what Tom Brokaw, Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, MSNBC, CNN, and those phuckwits on Fox are feeding you, then this is not the forum for you to debate this - save that for the dinner table. This is a forum of people with vary views who seek out numerous alternative sources of media to find out what is going on. One place to start is BBC.com, also watch the BBC broadcast nightly (7-7:30 pm) and every morning(6-6:30 am) on PBS to get another view of what is going on in the world. You are welcome to your views, but don't be lazy about how you get your information which is the problem of the general public here in America as well as abroad. This is not a criticism but at challenge to you to move out of your comfort zone and become surprised at what you might learn.

Peace.

Leslie

[Mocambo]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
I listen to all, but I will make my on choices in life. Some people follow what is popular, but that's not me.

I will never forget that day of 9/11 from my window in Woodbridge,NJ. Watching the Towers go down and trying to call friends that I knew worked there and the surrounding area.

People may look at this differently than me and that's ok. But, I care about my family and friends.

GOOD BLESS AMERICA, MY HOME SWEET HOME. If you care..........ENLIST!!!

I have served my military tenure. So, I feel I have a right to say as I feel. Don't be like Dubya, saying you want to protect America and don't do it(he had his chance). Do it physically, emotionally, verbally, etc.

[lola desire]

how come no one is talking about the nuclear weapons they ACTUALLY FOUND in north korea?

[Mocambo]

Originally posted by lola desire:
how come no one is talking about the nuclear weapons they ACTUALLY FOUND in north korea? Cause there is a substantial gain financially in Iraq compared to North Korea.

[Leslie]

Originally posted by Silhouette:
Don't be like Dubya, saying you want to protect America and don't do it(he had his chance). [/QB]Baby Bush is so pathetic he went AWOL from the National Guard - not only is he a drunk and a dabbler in the art of snorting lines, but he couldn't even hack it as a "weekend warrior" for his country. Yet he's ready to send our friends and family into the fields of Iraq to take down Saddam and this jackass couldn't even handle one weekend a month. Sorry ass....

[Doug]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
If someone is out to kill you, what would you do? Wait till they find you or will you go looking for them? Seems like there are plenty of Saudis that are not only out to kill us, but are more than willing to finance others to carry out the job. Strangely enough, we're not attacking Saudi Arabia.

[lesysteme]

Its this lack of knowledge about world affairs and the working principles of the UN expressed by basscore boy that the Bush Administration has been able to so swiftly exploit in order to win over public opinion.

With all due respect, i understand youre willingness to stand for all things good and go after the proponents of evil in the world. because these are essentially noble ideals

But the problem lies in the fact that the Bush Administration has not been able to make a case that Iraq actually HAS these weapons..let alone that they have given them to terrorists.

So what is happening is that the UN is being taken off the table, because so far they have found nothing other than forged documents and basically made up evidence.

So basecore boy, i think you have been duped into beleiving that these weapons are there. Most of the free world looks to the UN for verification on these claims because it is truly a neutral body. If the inspectors came back and said yes they have them or we cant do our jobs, all the allies have already said that they would support military action. Infact, the Republicans blasted Clinton when he bombed iraq in 1998 when the Iraqis held up the inspection process...and only recently did bush want to engae in nation building, he campaigned on a promise if a "modest" forgein policy. The hawks in his administration have take control.

If the US has info backing up its claims it should be given to the Inspectors..the problem is that it doesnt..so what has happened is that the Admin has taken the UN out of the process.

This is an alarming situation because the UN has actually worked in t he past effectively..not perfectly ofcourse at all..But it was the world way in dealign with problems and looking for peaceful solutions.

But in distorting the truth, the Admin has taken your well warrented love for your country and used it to its advantange. there are countless of reasons why it wants to go to war with Iraq and only Iraq now..and why North Korea can get diplomacy.

I urge you that if you really beleive in freedom like you say you do, that you use that very freedom to look deeper into thse issues facing us and see why the rest of the world, allies that have stood beside the US for 50 years, are opposing war at this time.

That is freedom. America was not founded on a love and trust for its leaders. America was founded on mistrust and rebellion.

Americas founding fathers fought for the bill of rights as an offset mechanismn to the formation of the first congress.

This is what your country is based upon. In your heated love for it, i suggest respectfully that you not to forget it aswell.

[lola desire]

Originally posted by Silhouette:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lola desire:
how come no one is talking about the nuclear weapons they ACTUALLY FOUND in north korea? Cause there is a substantial gain financially in Iraq compared to North Korea. </font>[/QUOTE]which just goes to show this isn't about "terror" at all.

[konbit]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:

Brain washing in the schools.
You think American schools don't do this?

[Jolyon]

This is not about terror. This is about extending American power, oil, appeasing the military/industrial complex in the US and boosting Bush's re-election chances.

Baby Bush is finishing off Daddy's job and at the same time taking a huge gamble with the security of the world. Bombing Saddam will finish him off, but it'll only add to the hatred, resentment and distrust that many others feel about America. These are the people who will be first to enlist in terrorist groups after more American troops annex another portion of Arab soil.

It's great reading some of these posts and realising that many Americans - THE REAL SILENT MAJORITY - don't believe the bullshit they're fed by a right wing media and a deceitful President.

[ March 18, 2003, 11:04 AM: Message edited by: Jolyon ]

[SHEIK YERBOUTI]

Originally posted by lola desire:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Silhouette:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lola desire:
how come no one is talking about the nuclear weapons they ACTUALLY FOUND in north korea? Cause there is a substantial gain financially in Iraq compared to North Korea. </font>[/QUOTE]which just goes to show this isn't about "terror" at all. </font>[/QUOTE]If it was really about "terror", we'd still be hearing the daily 'Bin Laden' report.

It's already been said that the entire 9/11 attack was primarily conducted by SAUDIS! I thought most of the Arab/Muslim world hated Hussein. The way Iraq became the new focus of attention and as fast as Hussein became public enemy no.1, you'd think Hussein flew one of the planes on 9/11 himself!

Nowadays it's like, "Bin who? Ladin what?"

[ March 18, 2003, 11:19 AM: Message edited by: toomuchtv ]

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Red D:
And another thing, I hardly see the views of a Daily Mirror journalist as 'a message from England'...

There's the result of US media, a childish generalizing of people, religions and facts.

RD

PS No disrespect intended Basecore Boy, but your views are narrowed and flawed by what your media is telling you. And they shouldn't be, because the DHP has more views and more open-minded people than any media. Sorry Red D. You're generalizing here. I find that the DHP crowd reads the media that supports their principles, same as those who swing the other way.

There is much more information to be had that clearly states the case that Saddam Hussein and the like are more of a threat to world peace than Bush could ever be. Presidents come and go (they only get two terms) but this Stalinist dictator keeps going and going.

There is much more information to be digested prior to closing your debate.

[nev m]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jolyon:
[QB] Britain has a shameful history of selling arms to dictators too.

T R U E S A Y !!

[Bold Soul]

And another point to consider:

The "coalition" that presided over the Gulf War was instrumental in allowing Iraq to skate through UN inspections. Russia is owed billions in weapons sales to Iraq, Germany and France have propped up business interests there and discovered biological and nuclear weapons components were provided by both nations.

That Hussein is in power is because of US, German, French and Russian collusion. That he has been able to confound the UN Security Council for more than a decade and have the world crying for the children of his nation is the mastery of third world politics.

Do your homework, folks.

[nev m]

In all innocence I was driving engineered parts destined for Iraq for a company that was later shamed in the "Big Gun" scandal.

Although innocent I felt slightly ashamed

[Digiman]

Originally posted by Silhouette:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lola desire:
how come no one is talking about the nuclear weapons they ACTUALLY FOUND in north korea? Cause there is a substantial gain financially in Iraq compared to North Korea. </font>[/QUOTE]And also, because Washington is a one problem town. I'm sure it will rear its head sooner or later (and it could be a whole lot scarier than Iraq)

[Digiman]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
This is not about terror. This is about extending American power, oil, appeasing the military/industrial complex in the US and boosting Bush's re-election chances.
This is true, but wasn't the original Gulf War about oil as well? Or did the Kuwait oil fields not factor in any decision made by Bush Snr? I don't think many people had heard of Kuwait before it got invaded and yet there was no International backlash to that war.

[konbit]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Sorry Red D. You're generalizing here. I find that the DHP crowd reads the media that supports their principles, same as those who swing the other way.
How can you assume what media sources others here use? I read and watch a variety of media sources...both "conservative" and "liberal." I think that others here probably do too.

[Basecore Boy]

I'm the other way!

[konbit]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
I'm the other way! huh?

[lesysteme]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
And another point to consider:

The "coalition" that presided over the Gulf War was instrumental in allowing Iraq to skate through UN inspections. Russia is owed billions in weapons sales to Iraq, Germany and France have propped up business interests there and discovered biological and nuclear weapons components were provided by both nations.yeah...20 years ago...and by the US aswell..again I hear nothing from the War supporters that has ANYTHING to do with the issues now at hand....and the drive to rid the region of these weapons b4 they are passed on to terrorists

to go back over these facts is just more avoiding the issues. The FACT remains (that the war supporters never raise) is that UN weapons inpectors DESTROYED a large amount of these weapons in 1995...why must we constantly go over and over the issue of who supplied them..? rumsfled himself supplied many of them in 1984.

The issue is that there remains un accounted for amounts of VX gas and anthrax..the inspectors are in the process of verifying Iraqi stocks and arguements regarding said destruction just as much as US claims that these weapons still exist.

Again a totally MOOT point in my opinion..nothing to do with anything regarding the failing of the UN and the need for US military action.





That Hussein is in power is because of US, German, French and Russian collusion. That he has been able to confound the UN Security Council for more than a decade and have the world crying for the children of his nation is the mastery of third world politics.

Do your homework, folks. please tell me anything here that we dont know...

See the WAR movement plays on the heart strings of sentiment and american fears of another attack.

The fact remains that Saddam has bee n succesfully contained since the past 13 years since the Gulf war. Inspections accounted for the destruction of a huge amount of weapon..simply look at the past UN reports and you will see this clearly.

This argument that he has thwrated the UN securtiy concil is also moot. The reason he was able to get away with making inspectors leave was because of staunch resistance from the republicans AGAINST bombing iraq in 1998..Clinton did it anyways and it achieved results...inspection routines have worked for the past 10 years (and now again..albeit slowly, i agree) and have made iraq an largely diminised regional power.

This talk of ignoring the security council is total nonesense..please do YOUR homework. This argument is a total joke.

The whole pretext for this war is to actually also lead attacks on places like Syria and iran..iraq is the easy first target because it IS so weak after 10 years of inspections and sanctions.

Also on weakness of the Security Council: Bush says the UN didnt act in Somalia..well the UN didnt act because the US threatned a VETO at the time...lets do some more homework.

Every one of these arguements you raise are moot.

I appreciate your desire to stand for what is good and just. The problem is that this new doctrine of pre emtive strikes will not stop here..and to install puppet US regimes throughout the middle east will do nothing to protect american security.

And when those disgruntled terrorists under future US regimes need Nukes..where will they go? N.korea and pakistan..one of which is our new best friend.

[Leslie]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
I'm the other way! What the hell is this in reference too and what does it mean? Are you coming out of the Conservative closet, what are you talking about?

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by konbit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Sorry Red D. You're generalizing here. I find that the DHP crowd reads the media that supports their principles, same as those who swing the other way.
How can you assume what media sources others here use? I read and watch a variety of media sources...both "conservative" and "liberal." I think that others here probably do too. </font>[/QUOTE]The same as the assumptions that others make about those who are spoon-fed by the conservative media.

Notice how I haven't agreed or disagreed with anyone yet. ;)

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by lesysteme:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
And another point to consider:

The "coalition" that presided over the Gulf War was instrumental in allowing Iraq to skate through UN inspections. Russia is owed billions in weapons sales to Iraq, Germany and France have propped up business interests there and discovered biological and nuclear weapons components were provided by both nations.yeah...20 years ago...and by the US aswell..again I hear nothing from the War supporters that has ANYTHING to do with the issues now at hand....and the drive to rid the region of these weapons b4 they are passed on to terrorists

to go back over these facts is just more avoiding the issues. The FACT remains (that the war supporters never raise) is that UN weapons inpectors DESTROYED a large amount of these weapons in 1995...why must we constantly go over and over the issue of who supplied them..? rumsfled himself supplied many of them in 1984.

The issue is that there remains un accounted for amounts of VX gas and anthrax..the inspectors are in the process of verifying Iraqi stocks and arguements regarding said destruction just as much as US claims that these weapons still exist.

Again a totally MOOT point in my opinion..nothing to do with anything regarding the failing of the UN and the need for US military action.





That Hussein is in power is because of US, German, French and Russian collusion. That he has been able to confound the UN Security Council for more than a decade and have the world crying for the children of his nation is the mastery of third world politics.

Do your homework, folks. please tell me anything here that we dont know...

See the WAR movement plays on the heart strings of sentiment and american fears of another attack.

The fact remains that Saddam has bee n succesfully contained since the past 13 years since the Gulf war. Inspections accounted for the destruction of a huge amount of weapon..simply look at the past UN reports and you will see this clearly.

This argument that he has thwrated the UN securtiy concil is also moot. The reason he was able to get away with making inspectors leave was because of staunch resistance from the republicans AGAINST bombing iraq in 1998..Clinton did it anyways and it achieved results...inspection routines have worked for the past 10 years (and now again..albeit slowly, i agree) and have made iraq an largely diminised regional power.

This talk of ignoring the security council is total nonesense..please do YOUR homework. This argument is a total joke.

The whole pretext for this war is to actually also lead attacks on places like Syria and iran..iraq is the easy first target because it IS so weak after 10 years of inspections and sanctions.

Also on weakness of the Security Council: Bush says the UN didnt act in Somalia..well the UN didnt act because the US threatned a VETO at the time...lets do some more homework.

Every one of these arguements you raise are moot.

I appreciate your desire to stand for what is good and just. The problem is that this new doctrine of pre emtive strikes will not stop here..and to install puppet US regimes throughout the middle east will do nothing to protect american security.

And when those disgruntled terrorists under future US regimes need Nukes..where will they go? N.korea and pakistan..one of which is our new best friend. </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for putting about fifty more points than the one I was originally making on my statement. Phew...easy there.

[lesysteme]

well, this isnt an "one issue" situation. im sure we agree.

its filled with inconsistencies on all sides i will freely admit.

But what s alarming to me is that there has been a total lack of national discourse about the fact that the national policy towards war has been radiacally changed and the president seems to have been given a blank check.

feel free to take on any of my points..im always up for hearing other points of view. ifind it a bit much that youd say your only bringing up one point either..i think your referring to a number of points in your post to be honest.

BTW: i do find it a touch condescending that just because i post here and am not in agreement with this conflict that you feel i somehow would only read news outlets that support my position.

I find your sentiment also depressing in the same way that the protests are being branded as un patriotic and being marginalized as focus groups.

cheers

[lesysteme]

ill also retort that 50 points is a bit much.

ive made 2 basic points:

A:that the war supporters fail to deal with the situation at hand: ie Saddams WMD by basically shifting to other issues

and that saddamn has not thwarted the UN security council for the last 12 years.

we can address those if youd like.

[Mah'chew]

I have a US friend here in Tokyo that is boycotting French products (or Frog products as she puts them..) The level of her self-imposed embargo will probably mean one less lip-stick a month - so she's doing her bit!!!

I suggested that she ask Bush to give them back the Statue of Liberty :D

[Bold Soul]

I killed a whole bottle of merlot by myself writing a new song two nights ago.

I hid the bottle in the trash. ;)

[Basecore Boy]

Originally posted by Leslie:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
I'm the other way! What the hell is this in reference too and what does it mean? Are you coming out of the Conservative closet, what are you talking about? </font>[/QUOTE]This means that I will not be coming over to your side of things.

Somebody has to be the stand up guy for things to change.

And I don't need anybody to respect what I say, I will have to deal with my maker on this one.

Respect beautiful.

[Leslie]

Basecore Boy - dude you won I give up with you. Not only did you completely miss the whole point of what I was saying I honestly believe that you are quite content with your level of knowledge of this or any other subject.

I can't no more, I'm done.... graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[Basecore Boy]

Originally posted by Leslie:
Basecore Boy - dude you won I give up with you. Not only did you completely miss the whole point of what I was saying I honestly believe that you are quite content with your level of knowledge of this or any other subject.

I can't no more, I'm done.... graemlins/jpshakehead.gif Sometimes we look to deep and find sh$t. Somethings are not that deep. graemlins/acclaim.gif

Or maybe I'm just stupid.

[ March 19, 2003, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: Basecore Boy ]

[mhd]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Leslie:
Basecore Boy - dude you won I give up with you. Not only did you completely miss the whole point of what I was saying I honestly believe that you are quite content with your level of knowledge of this or any other subject.

I can't no more, I'm done.... graemlins/jpshakehead.gif Sometimes we look to deep and find sh$t. Somethings are not that deep. graemlins/acclaim.gif

Or maybe I'm just stupid. </font>[/QUOTE]finally

[Balactus]

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2003/03/19/left/index.html

this is a kind of interesting story i found on salon.com you might find this relevent.

w

[the crackhouse]

Originally posted by Basecore Boy:
Funny.

How often in your life have you tried to make friends with someone that did not want to be your friend.

Some people are being taught to hate us daily. Brain washing in the schools.

Sometimes you can work all your life trying to make friends and it never happens. When you say that Basecore Boy... You're from Iraq ?
I didn't know...