My thoughts on this scene... [Archive]

larry rauson

08-06-2003, 07:40 AM

Our scene is too old, too entrenced in the past, scared of anything that pushes boudaries, too reliant on technology, and most importantly to economically ignorant to really survive as a viable cultural force. House has no face, no identity, no true outlet for dissemination, house has no self awareness, but at the same time is bound by too many definitions. House has an open door policy in terms of who can perform, and produce house, that has got to stop. Alot of the garbage that clogs the channels of distribution would be eliminated.

My great fear is that one day going to a party means going to Avery Fischer Hall, to see a seventy year old Tony Humphries play a set of Zanzibar classics while we sit in our seats clapping our hands talking about how we used to dance, while PBS is begging for dollars to support this great programming. I'd like at some point, if I ever get older, to say I had something to do with whatever this scene turns into and be proud about it. The past five years leave me only a little hope that this may come to pass.

Larry "I Wannabe a Legend" Rauson

[ August 06, 2003, 08:41 AM: Message edited by: larry rauson ]

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 07:45 AM

Larry

thanx for coalescing everything i have ever said these past three years into 2 great pargaphs

peace

dennis f

08-06-2003, 07:57 AM

AMEN! hail.gif hail.gif

mdpm99

08-06-2003, 08:04 AM

Greetings larry rauson:

Well said.

graemlins/respekt.gif

d

"Music will enable you to see past facts to the very essence of things in a way which science cannot do."

-- Vaughan Williams

[ August 06, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

richierich

08-06-2003, 08:04 AM

They do that now. ALL I hear is how we USE to do it ... I say "Hell I aint through yet". "Aint you got no old music"? I say "Yeah we played it already...years ago". "Oooh yeah I remember Ron used to beat the cut at the BOX",well the box has been closed for what almost 2 decades? Like their past is as good as it's gonna get. Nothing against people liking what they like but don't try to pull me into that. Ron has passed, the Plant is closed, most of the old heads are what..in their LATE 50s and others are just plain tired of Stop Bajon.

[ August 06, 2003, 09:09 AM: Message edited by: richierich ]

Basecore Boy

08-06-2003, 08:04 AM

Everybody is so deep they are drowning the music.

Until house music includes everyone the music will suffer.

And

08-06-2003, 08:04 AM

Pardons ... I'm just a tumbleweed rolling through.
http://yaoiville.org/blue/blue-tumbleweed.gif

DJJM3.COM

08-06-2003, 08:09 AM

One word......... Mainstream

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 08:26 AM

Pardon me. If we are talking about playing new House as opposed to the same old classics like "follow me" then I totally agree. But if you are talking about the music progressing and extending to uncharted territory then I am a bit leary. I know I am not the only one who has noticed that there are some well paid dj's who play in Europe(as well as US) who have convinced some people, who don't have knowledge of the roots of House, that the slowed down Techno music they play is House music. You know what I'm talking about....A whole 4 hour set with no lyrics. As soon as we start to market House like hip-hop,etc. then the type of people that the media will give attention to will not be who you think it will. You might get a whole bunch of Fatboy Slim/Paul Oak***** types getting the godfather of modern House status.

richierich

08-06-2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
Pardon me. If we are talking about playing new House as opposed to the same old classics like "follow me" then I totally agree. But if you are talking about the music progressing and extending to uncharted territory then I am a bit leary. I know I am not the only one who has noticed that there are some well paid dj's who play in Europe(as well as US) who have convinced some people, who don't have knowledge of the roots of House, that the slowed down Techno music they play is House music. You know what I'm talking about....A whole 4 hour set with no lyrics. As soon as we start to market House like hip-hop,etc. then the type of people that the media will give attention to will not be who you think it will. You might get a whole bunch of Fatboy Slim/Paul Oak***** types getting the godfather of modern House status. YEAH DOG I FELL YOU ON THIS. MY THING WAS NOT EXCLUSIVELY THE SONGS THAT ARE PLAYED BUT THE FACT THAT SOME ARE STILL LOOKING FOR THE PAST SCENE PERIOD ALONG WITH THOSE SONGS. LIKE THEY ARE GONNA HAVE THE SAME INTENSITY AS THEY DID WHEN WE FIRST HEARD THEM AT A DIFFERENT TIME IN OUR LIVES. PLEASE FORGIVE THE CAPS .

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 08:38 AM

DJJM3.COM

08-06-2003, 08:40 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
Pardon me. If we are talking about playing new House as opposed to the same old classics like "follow me" then I totally agree. But if you are talking about the music progressing and extending to uncharted territory then I am a bit leary. I know I am not the only one who has noticed that there are some well paid dj's who play in Europe(as well as US) who have convinced some people, who don't have knowledge of the roots of House, that the slowed down Techno music they play is House music. You know what I'm talking about....A whole 4 hour set with no lyrics. As soon as we start to market House like hip-hop,etc. then the type of people that the media will give attention to will not be who you think it will. You might get a whole bunch of Fatboy Slim/Paul Oak***** types getting the godfather of modern House status. Not if they market it as a "popular" underground thing......and dont "Vanilla Ice" it........

Chris Conrad

08-06-2003, 09:11 AM

everyone should read what larry said, then read it again just to make sure they got it. every time i argue with someone about the state of the scene, i challenge them to ask someone within the industry, or, better yet, ask someone you deem a 'sellout' about our scene...peopel always diss, for example, junior vasquez, or roger sanchez, and its very simple, next time you see them in person, go ask them why they do what they do and what their views are. the answers make shock some of you, because many people on this board and others have been saying the exact same things.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
everyone should read what larry said, then read it again just to make sure they got it. every time i argue with someone about the state of the scene, i challenge them to ask someone within the industry, or, better yet, ask someone you deem a 'sellout' about our scene...peopel always diss, for example, junior vasquez, or roger sanchez, and its very simple, next time you see them in person, go ask them why they do what they do and what their views are. the answers make shock some of you, because many people on this board and others have been saying the exact same things. Chris..you are hinting at something which is soooooo frigging important - would yo care to elaborate?

peace

upliftdisco365

08-06-2003, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by larry rauson:
Our scene is too old, too entrenced in the past, scared of anything that pushes boudaries, too reliant on technology, and most importantly to economically ignorant to really survive as a viable cultural force. House has no face, no identity, no true outlet for dissemination, house has no self awareness, but at the same time is bound by too many definitions. House has an open door policy in terms of who can perform, and produce house, that has got to stop. Alot of the garbage that clogs the channels of distribution would be eliminated.

My great fear is that one day going to a party means going to Avery Fischer Hall, to see a seventy year old Tony Humphries play a set of Zanzibar classics while we sit in our seats clapping our hands talking about how we used to dance, while PBS is begging for dollars to support this great programming. I'd like at some point, if I ever get older, to say I had something to do with whatever this scene turns into and be proud about it. The past five years leave me only a little hope that this may come to pass.

Larry "I Wannabe a Legend" Rauson The music has always moved forward and into new directions. I think that in the world, from region-to-region, the turnover time from one train of thought to the next is longer or shorter, faster or slower depending on how deep the roots run for that genre in that region.

For instance, Chi is NEVER gonna stop playing Deep Disco, no matter how hard schools of new thought push for emerging music and fresh directions. The people who want new music can and will successfully co-exist. I think it's naive and short-sighted to consider things in such exclusionary terms as "THIS" or "THAT". Sentiment for the traditional isn't synonymous with stagnation. It's the limiting of choices that's stagnating.

08-06-2003, 09:26 AM

D J 1 3 8

08-06-2003, 09:27 AM

Originally posted by larry rauson:
My great fear is that one day going to a party means going to Avery Fischer Hall, to see a seventy year old Tony Humphries play a set of Zanzibar classics while we sit in our seats clapping our hands talking about how we used to dance, while PBS is begging for dollars to support this great programming. I went to see Big Daddy Kane at Joe's Pub two years ago and it was exactly like this. It was Valentine's Day. Joe's Pub, for those outside of NY, is a very swanky hipster lounge/supper club place that is sort of a club but often has stage performances like Sandra Bernhard and the like. Everyone sat in their seats, ate their dinner, and drank their cocktails while Big Daddy Kane stood on a stage with his hype man running through a medley of his classics (to a DAT, no less. Mr. Cee was MIA). The crowd was very polite and grown up. Just about everyone there knew every word he was rhyming. I looked around and said "my god, has this what hip hop has become, dinner theatre?" It was scary. Veryt scary.

I think just about every genre of music is destined for this sad, sad end.

[ August 06, 2003, 10:30 AM: Message edited by: DJ 138 ]

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 09:31 AM

Along the lines of what Larry said:

I have produced and distributed house for mass consumption and will probably do so again: the horror - i have ZERO musical ability ( i'm a decent man of business though and with the right backing would try to go to another place with this thing)

We really do need more TALENT in this scene ( as a piano teacher once sniffed - keyboards don't count)..We need more substance for mass consumption ( folks - this is a battle for resources - of the economic kind, the fringe can't thrive). We need more open minds..too many of us track to the store du jour to purchase and then play the same shit everybody else has ( how boring is that)

Siiiiiiiigghhhhhh

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 09:32 AM

I, personally, have no problem with people wanting our scene to move forward and market itself better. I love it when House dj's/producers/singers make money, but I don't want future generations listening to techno/DnB and calling it House. This is my one and only concern. I can see things getting twisted if it reaches MTV's TRL.

jsd540

08-06-2003, 09:33 AM

Well said... graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Time marches on, so should we.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
I, personally, have no problem with people wanting our scene to move forward and market itself better. I love it when House dj's/producers/singers make money, but I don't want future generations listening to techno/DnB and calling it House. This is my one and only concern. I can see things getting twisted if it reaches MTV's TRL. what the hell is "house" anyway?

exhibit B

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 09:38 AM

WHAT!! House is not a bunch of tracks with no lyrics for hours and hours. House is not "food with no seasoning or flavor".

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
WHAT!! House is not a bunch of tracks with no lyrics for hours and hours. House is not "food with no seasoning or flavor". Free Yourself
Washing Machine
Thank Ya
Jungle Wonz
House Music Anthem
Virgo Mechanically replayed

a long list indeed...but i'm olde and forgetful

drilla

08-06-2003, 09:44 AM

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 09:48 AM

Is it ok to add new stuff to your list also

Cerca de mi(maw)
He's Alright(Jasper Str Co)
Loves got me high
etc.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 09:53 AM

there is progression...but then the purists and haters sniff and say..."this is not house!"...i danced just as hard to Robbie Riveras "Feel It" or Morales' "Live to Tell" or 4 Toasters or 'Bongo Song" as i did to Blaze or Osunlade last year ( and come to think of it there were more GIRLS at those parties toooo...hmmmm)

its ALL dance music yo...or did the Founders make a mistake with tracks like "Lucky in Love" or "E2-E4" and the myriad other joints they threw in

the biggest problem - tooooo many bedroom dj acolytes/paduans - never done shit and when they do to afraid of losing the floor/job to take ANY chance at all

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
Is it ok to add new stuff to your list also

Cerca de mi(maw)
He's Alright(Jasper Str Co)
Loves got me high
etc. YOU are the one who says that house is about vocals...i'm naming tracks that can be id'ed with a seminal House label as evidence of the falseness of you statements

but if you insist
Dis Poem
Whistle Song
Peace in the Mideast
Les Enfants du Bled

should i continue?

TAD

08-06-2003, 09:59 AM

do you think hip hop/r&b would be where it is today if it were not for major label/radio/video support?

people are beating a dead horse if they think deep house will ever become mainstream. it won't face it. it's an underground form of music that is not marketable to a mass (read white) audience. accept it, deal with it & move on. or stick with your principles & continue to play what you love. i for one am not in this for any kind of notoriety otherwise i would have gone the junior route, an avenue that was very easy for me to fulfill if i had chosen it. why did i stick with my first love?? well that's entirely personal & has no bearing on this discussion. what i will say is that it was necessary for my personal growth & survival.

Magus you wrote: "too many of us track to the store du jour to purchase and then play the same shit everybody else has ( how boring is that)"

isn't this typical of the mainstream. isn't this the correct formula for a successful party? to play what is popular. i think your statement reflects the accepted norm in a broader sense. however i feel one of the main problems in this scene is the exact opposite. dj's are trying to push their own identity on people. the "industry" formula is frowned upon by so called progressive jocks. that to me is hurting the scene & stifling its growth more than anything else.

this music by its own definition IS NOT MAINSTREAM. there is no such thing as an overplayed deep house record. it just doesn't exist. if dj's are fed up with playing cerca de mi, they should try spinning commercial music & see how long it is before they start popping those white pills. believe me, they'll find a way to fit louie's record in so they can educate the poor lost souls that just want to have a good time dancing to their favorite 50 cent tune.

08-06-2003, 10:03 AM

Cosmic, you don't hear "souless" (bwahhahaha) house on the radio either, but parties for that scene have 100x more people and the actors in that scene make more bucks as well.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 10:03 AM

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
do you think hip hop/r&b would be where it is today if it were not for major label/radio/video support?

. Yes and No

NWA sold over a MILLION copies of their first album on their own
Same goes for Master P

The difference is that there are many more entrepeneurs in hiphop than in Dance/House...they are all driven by an economic incentive..is that good or bad...who knows. I know i like money..its a great tool

That being said the hiphop scene does get a lot of majo label support...however at one time so did dance...and we dropped the ball

däp

08-06-2003, 10:04 AM

there's a large sect who wants to keep things underground. if house music goes mainstream, they'll find the next "underground".

Dolemite73

08-06-2003, 10:07 AM

I like to compare our music to the smooth jazz scene. Does it heavily market to the mainstream? No. Does it have a nice size following? Yes. They key is using the same formula smooth jazz uses and apply it to our scene.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:

Magus you wrote: "too many of us track to the store du jour to purchase and then play the same shit everybody else has ( how boring is that)"

isn't this typical of the mainstream. isn't this the correct formula for a successful party? to play what is popular. i think your statement reflects the accepted norm in a broader sense. however i feel one of the main problems in this scene is the exact opposite. dj's are trying to push their own identity on people. the "industry" formula is frowned upon by so called progressive jocks. that to me is hurting the scene & stifling its growth more than anything else.

this music by its own definition IS NOT MAINSTREAM. there is no such thing as an overplayed deep house record. it just doesn't exist. if dj's are fed up with playing cerca de mi, they should try spinning commercial music & see how long it is before they start popping those white pills. believe me, they'll find a way to fit louie's record in so they can educate the poor lost souls that just want to have a good time dancing to their favorite 50 cent tune. part two

AS far as i can tell there are many of the same records bought and played on the hiphop scene - no doubt, however the sets i experiebce are crazy diverse and inclusive of reggae, rock, r&b and horror of horrors house

You will find a lot less orthodoxy amongst hiphoppers than amongst "househeads"...of course thats only my experience from attendance at a lot of both types of gigs here in nyc

Chris Conrad

08-06-2003, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
do you think hip hop/r&b would be where it is today if it were not for major label/radio/video support?

people are beating a dead horse if they think deep house will ever become mainstream. it won't face it. it's an underground form of music that is not marketable to a mass (read white) audience. accept it, deal with it & move on. or stick with your principles & continue to play what you love. i for one am not in this for any kind of notoriety otherwise i would have gone the junior route, an avenue that was very easy for me to fulfill if i had chosen it. why did i stick with my first love?? well that's entirely personal & has no bearing on this discussion. what i will say is that it was necessary for my personal growth & survival.

Magus you wrote: "too many of us track to the store du jour to purchase and then play the same shit everybody else has ( how boring is that)"

isn't this typical of the mainstream. isn't this the correct formula for a successful party? to play what is popular. i think your statement reflects the accepted norm in a broader sense. however i feel one of the main problems in this scene is the exact opposite. dj's are trying to push their own identity on people. the "industry" formula is frowned upon by so called progressive jocks. that to me is hurting the scene & stifling its growth more than anything else.

this music by its own definition IS NOT MAINSTREAM. there is no such thing as an overplayed deep house record. it just doesn't exist. if dj's are fed up with playing cerca de mi, they should try spinning commercial music & see how long it is before they start popping those white pills. believe me, they'll find a way to fit louie's record in so they can educate the poor lost souls that just want to have a good time dancing to their favorite 50 cent tune. but wait a minute...isn't having an identity exactly why certain dj's became big? people didn't go listen to tony humphries on the radio or go see him at zanzibar because he was playing the same stuff as everyone, people don't go to shelter because it's like every other party, people didn't go see louie vega play at sound factory bar because it was just like every other party. all those dj's made it because they had their own style and pushed certain records and did certain things differently. the problem now is, everyone wants to be just like shelter, just like louie, and 'house' history has been rewritten to encompass a very small definition of what it suppsoedly is. all this, while shouting about the mythical paradise garage, which was about musical variety and constantly moved forward.

Chris Conrad

08-06-2003, 10:13 AM

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
[]but wait a minute...isn't having an identity exactly why certain dj's became big? people didn't go listen to tony humphries on the radio or go see him at zanzibar because he was playing the same stuff as everyone, people don't go to shelter because it's like every other party, people didn't go see louie vega play at sound factory bar because it was just like every other party. all those dj's made it because they had their own style and pushed certain records and did certain things differently. the problem now is, everyone wants to be just like shelter, just like louie, and 'house' history has been rewritten to encompass a very small definition of what it suppsoedly is. all this, while shouting about the mythical paradise garage, which was about musical variety and constantly moved forward. [/qb]hunnnh Glory!

PREACH ON

[ August 06, 2003, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: St Magus the Reviled ]

DJJM3.COM

08-06-2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
everyone look through their 'house' record collections from the late 80's to the early 90's and count how many major labels they find. quite a few, no? and this is the exact time period many people agree that house had peaked out and was at its best. Well The industry let them both run side by side. Hip Hop did a "F**k House" thing that was successful. Thats what "peaked" out house.......

D J 1 3 8

08-06-2003, 10:22 AM

Originally posted by Dolemite73:
I like to compare our music to the smooth jazz scene. Does it heavily market to the mainstream? No. Does it have a nice size following? Yes. They key is using the same formula smooth jazz uses and apply it to our scene. graemlins/puke.gif
Smooth Jazz is the most horrible, watered-down form of music ever created.
I cringe every time I get in to a cab and they're playing that garbage.
Then I think to myself "John Coltrane is spinning in his grave"

Dolemite73

08-06-2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dolemite73:
I like to compare our music to the smooth jazz scene. Does it heavily market to the mainstream? No. Does it have a nice size following? Yes. They key is using the same formula smooth jazz uses and apply it to our scene. graemlins/puke.gif
Smooth Jazz is the most horrible, watered-down form of music ever created.
I cringe every time I get in to a cab and they're playing that garbage.
Then I think to myself "John Coltrane is spinning in his grave" [/QUOTE]Well now...this response just proves what Magus is saying doesnt it?

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by DJJM3:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
everyone look through their 'house' record collections from the late 80's to the early 90's and count how many major labels they find. quite a few, no? and this is the exact time period many people agree that house had peaked out and was at its best. Well The industry let them both run side by side. Hip Hop did a "F**k House" thing that was successful. Thats what "peaked" out house....... [/QUOTE]that is revisionist bullshit

hiphop didn't do any "**** house" thing - in fact they were doing a lot of hiphouse ( jungle brothers, monie love etc)..they just took carte of business - don't try to lay OUR failure at the feet of others

especially when it aint true

TAD

08-06-2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
do you think hip hop/r&b would be where it is today if it were not for major label/radio/video support?

. Yes and No

NWA sold over a MILLION copies of their first album on their own
Same goes for Master P

The difference is that there are many more entrepeneurs in hiphop than in Dance/House...they are all driven by an economic incentive..is that good or bad...who knows. I know i like money..its a great tool

That being said the hiphop scene does get a lot of majo label support...however at one time so did dance...and we dropped the ball [/QUOTE]this is not a good argument. the house music anthem sold 250,000 copies, bucketheads a lot more. fingers mystery of love sold 50,000 units in less than 6 months. were these labels driven by economic incentive? i would think so. were they entrepeneurs? i'd say yes. does moby today sell tons of 4 to the floor records? yes. that's house or electronica to some. deep house is a fringe element of electronica. i can equate it to skipworth & turner versus nu shooz or giorgio vs. alfredo de la fe or lenny williams. all these were the dance classics of the time but there were some that received more media attention because of their mass appeal.

deep soulful gospel house does not fit into any predetermined marketing formula that's geared towards a sustainable outlet.

the division that's created through genres & sub genres does not give much room for flexibility. playing for a room that allows little leeway to play deep house gives one no choice but to focus on the best deep house cuts just to make a small dent. that alone might be enough to create a buzz withing the mainstream on a particular record that might catch the ear of a major label. if 500 jocks around the country are playing cerca de mi in a commercial setting, that can lead to a major deal. but that's just one record. unfortunately that's the market we live in. some will make it while others will continue to make sacrfices.

darrow

08-06-2003, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by larry rauson:
Our scene is too old, too entrenced in the past, scared of anything that pushes boudaries, too reliant on technology, and most importantly to economically ignorant to really survive as a viable cultural force. House has no face, no identity, no true outlet for dissemination, house has no self awareness, but at the same time is bound by too many definitions. House has an open door policy in terms of who can perform, and produce house, that has got to stop. Alot of the garbage that clogs the channels of distribution would be eliminated.

My great fear is that one day going to a party means going to Avery Fischer Hall, to see a seventy year old Tony Humphries play a set of Zanzibar classics while we sit in our seats clapping our hands talking about how we used to dance, while PBS is begging for dollars to support this great programming. I'd like at some point, if I ever get older, to say I had something to do with whatever this scene turns into and be proud about it. The past five years leave me only a little hope that this may come to pass.

Larry "I Wannabe a Legend" Rauson Larry, I'm quoting you not to argue with you but because I'm trying to make sure I stick to the original statement.

I was wondering if you or others could give some examples of what has pushed boundaries that you feel people in the scene are scared of.

When you say that there is too much reliance on technology, do you mean from the music production standpoint? Are you saying that the reliance on technology is masking (hmmm...or maybe amplifying) the lack of musicianship?

In what ways are people in the House scene more economically ignorant than others?

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 10:30 AM

St Magus----let's clear something up. The songs you are talking about is what I like also. I am not talking about House music like the Whistle Song, etc. I am talking about dance music with no soul like the shit Paul Oakenford(?) plays and techno type music. All the mixes from this website is what I love. I am talking about these lounge scene type songs along with those off beat drum-n-bass songs.
I want our scene to progress to another level but my point is that when we do that, make sure people don't merge those other styles(DnB,techno) of dance into one House genre. I don't want to go to a party and have a mosh pit beside me.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
do you think hip hop/r&b would be where it is today if it were not for major label/radio/video support?

. Yes and No

NWA sold over a MILLION copies of their first album on their own
Same goes for Master P

The difference is that there are many more entrepeneurs in hiphop than in Dance/House...they are all driven by an economic incentive..is that good or bad...who knows. I know i like money..its a great tool

That being said the hiphop scene does get a lot of majo label support...however at one time so did dance...and we dropped the ball [/QUOTE]this is not a good argument. the house music anthem sold 250,000 copies, bucketheads a lot more. fingers mystery of love sold 50,000 units in less than 6 months. were these labels driven by economic incentive? i would think so. were they entrepeneurs? i'd say yes. does moby today sell tons of 4 to the floor records? yes. that's house or electronica to some. deep house is a fringe element of electronica. i can equate it to skipworth & turner versus nu shooz or giorgio vs. alfredo de la fe or lenny williams. all these were the dance classics of the time but there were some that received more media attention because of their mass appeal.

deep soulful gospel house does not fit into any predetermined marketing formula that's geared towards a sustainable outlet.

the division that's created through genres & sub genres does not give much room for flexibility. playing for a room that allows little leeway to play deep house gives one no choice but to focus on the best deep house cuts just to make a small dent. that alone might be enough to create a buzz withing the mainstream on a particular record that might catch the ear of a major label. if 500 jocks around the country are playing cerca de mi in a commercial setting, that can lead to a major deal. but that's just one record. unfortunately that's the market we live in. some will make it while others will continue to make sacrfices. [/QUOTE]i was speaking to major label suppot and it is my contention that a major pillar of hiphop thrived without such...also a million album units moved is much different than a quarter million singles

do we have entrepeneurs in house? - of course..are we generally business savvy..well a quick landscape survey gives its own answers - and highlights the problems

DJJM3.COM

08-06-2003, 10:33 AM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
that is revisionist bullshit

hiphop didn't do any "**** house" thing - in fact they were doing a lot of hiphouse ( jungle brothers, monie love etc)..they just took carte of business - don't try to lay OUR failure at the feet of others

especially when it aint true This was done exclusively on College radio stations in CHICAGO which YOU dont reside........on all the hip hop specialty shows....there was a write up recently on the suntimes that verifies it.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
St Magus----let's clear something up. The songs you are talking about is what I like also. I am not talking about House music like the Whistle Song, etc. I am talking about dance music with no soul like the shit Paul Oakenford(?) plays and techno type music. All the mixes from this website is what I love. I am talking about these lounge scene type songs along with those off beat drum-n-bass songs.
I want our scene to progress to another level but my point is that when we do that, make sure people don't merge those other styles(DnB,techno) of dance into one House genre. I don't want to go to a party and have a mosh pit beside me. exhibit C

and a mosh pit differs from those ubiquitous and party vibe destroying circles how?

darrow

08-06-2003, 10:37 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
St Magus----let's clear something up. The songs you are talking about is what I like also. I am not talking about House music like the Whistle Song, etc. I am talking about dance music with no soul like the shit Paul Oakenford(?) plays and techno type music. All the mixes from this website is what I love. I am talking about these lounge scene type songs along with those off beat drum-n-bass songs.
I want our scene to progress to another level but my point is that when we do that, make sure people don't merge those other styles(DnB,techno) of dance into one House genre. I don't want to go to a party and have a mosh pit beside me. Hi jay rags

Do you have problems with these music genres (techno and DnB) or do you have problems with the crowds that listen to these genres? Or maybe the answer is both?

Tony Cano

08-06-2003, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
do you think hip hop/r&b would be where it is today if it were not for major label/radio/video support?

. Yes and No

NWA sold over a MILLION copies of their first album on their own
Same goes for Master P

The difference is that there are many more entrepeneurs in hiphop than in Dance/House...they are all driven by an economic incentive..is that good or bad...who knows. I know i like money..its a great tool

That being said the hiphop scene does get a lot of majo label support...however at one time so did dance...and we dropped the ball [/QUOTE]this is not a good argument. the house music anthem sold 250,000 copies, bucketheads a lot more. fingers mystery of love sold 50,000 units in less than 6 months. were these labels driven by economic incentive? i would think so. were they entrepeneurs? i'd say yes. does moby today sell tons of 4 to the floor records? yes. that's house or electronica to some. deep house is a fringe element of electronica. i can equate it to skipworth & turner versus nu shooz or giorgio vs. alfredo de la fe or lenny williams. all these were the dance classics of the time but there were some that received more media attention because of their mass appeal.

deep soulful gospel house does not fit into any predetermined marketing formula that's geared towards a sustainable outlet.

the division that's created through genres & sub genres does not give much room for flexibility. playing for a room that allows little leeway to play deep house gives one no choice but to focus on the best deep house cuts just to make a small dent. that alone might be enough to create a buzz withing the mainstream on a particular record that might catch the ear of a major label. if 500 jocks around the country are playing cerca de mi in a commercial setting, that can lead to a major deal. but that's just one record. unfortunately that's the market we live in. some will make it while others will continue to make sacrfices. [/QUOTE]i was speaking to major label suppot and it is my contention that a major pillar of hiphop thrived without such...also a million album units moved is much different than a quarter million singles

do we have entrepeneurs in house? - of course..are we generally business savvy..well a quick landscape survey gives its own answers - and highlights the problems [/QUOTE]JM3

this seems to be an isolated incident. i doubt this college station you speak of had such impact.

by the way, email me your mailing address.

tc

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 10:44 AM

Originally posted by DJJM3:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
that is revisionist bullshit

hiphop didn't do any "**** house" thing - in fact they were doing a lot of hiphouse ( jungle brothers, monie love etc)..they just took carte of business - don't try to lay OUR failure at the feet of others

especially when it aint true This was done exclusively on College radio stations in CHICAGO which YOU dont reside........on all the hip hop specialty shows....there was a write up recently on the suntimes that verifies it. [/QUOTE]then you over generalized didn't YOU?...also i never really realized the reach of college radio in CHICAGO ( specialty shows no less) until now

i guess they hammered the dudes on mainstream radio that were playing HOUSE in CHICAGO at THAT time ( because as you know college radio does put out much stronger signals than the commercial stations AND gets more listeners)

but hey..i'm from NYC..i'm sure shit is different over there

btw...wasn't Mr Lee and that whole hiphouse crew from CHICAGO? (non rhetorical as i ain't sure)

08-06-2003, 10:45 AM

dissing techno when you say you love deep house is downright ignorant.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 10:48 AM

"the blame lies not in our stars but in our selves"

i probably misquoted but ya get the vibe

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 10:51 AM

Sup darrow. When I think about it, I don't have a problem with anyone who listens to techno or DnB and deep down don't care where that music goes. But my response to Larry was that I agreed with him but I know from personal experience here in Baltimore, that some white people's definition of House music includes some of that stuff. I hated to go there but I want St Magus to understand that I love House music and not what some have twisted and returned to us as house.

DJJM3.COM

08-06-2003, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
then you over generalized didn't YOU?...also i never really realized the reach of college radio in CHICAGO ( specialty shows no less) until now

i guess they hammered the dudes on mainstream radio that were playing HOUSE in CHICAGO at THAT time ( because as you know college radio does put out much stronger signals than the commercial stations AND gets more listeners)

but hey..i'm from NYC..i'm sure shit is different over there

btw...wasn't Mr Lee and that whole hiphouse crew from CHICAGO? (non rhetorical as i ain't sure) Thats where it all started.....the college radio circuit.....alot of tracks was broke on college radio at one time. Mainstream would follow what college did then to-this was before the radio monopoly.......

Hip House was from chicago...but that has nothing to do with the hard core hip hop shows that started what we have today.......

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 10:56 AM

What's up JL. Are you one of those people who have divided House music and think deep house is the same as the music on this website? I hope you don't think that the slower techno music is "deep House". And just remember we are just chatting so please don't call my statements ignorant unless you want to take a very good message board topic and get it cut off.

peace.........

Cheddar

08-06-2003, 11:01 AM

Dont blame the little people..blame the big boys.

DJJM3.COM

08-06-2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Tony Cano:
JM3

this seems to be an isolated incident. i doubt this college station you speak of had such impact.

by the way, email me your mailing address.

tc Check Your PM.....I got a package coming your way too.......

08-06-2003, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
Sup darrow. When I think about it, I don't have a problem with anyone who listens to techno or DnB and deep down don't care where that music goes. But my response to Larry was that I agreed with him but I know from personal experience here in Baltimore, that some white people's definition of House music includes some of that stuff. I hated to go there but I want St Magus to understand that I love House music and not what some have twisted and returned to us as house. and there you go.

techno is deep house, and deep house is techno man.

MusicFilter

08-06-2003, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jay rags:
WHAT!! House is not a bunch of tracks with no lyrics for hours and hours. House is not "food with no seasoning or flavor". Free Yourself
Washing Machine
Thank Ya
Jungle Wonz
House Music Anthem
Virgo Mechanically replayed

a long list indeed...but i'm olde and forgetful [/QUOTE]Yo! That's Chicago House.

House is a feelin', it's more than just a few tracks made in the 90's when people learned how to use a beat box. It's a culmination of a lot of music which came from the 70's known as Disco, the Philly Sound and Cassablanca. It's a way of life, how we dressed, how we partied and our state of mind back then. Some of that music sparked the creativity of music lovers, DJs and producers to create some of the music "termed" house. Many of these tracks were produced right here in Chicago on the "Traxx" label (the full name escapes me, but it was the red lable; you know the one that screwed all it's artist).

I want to see it progress too, but not to a point that it's on as someone said on TRL or MTV. I don't want to start seeing house music videos (hmm house music videos- I feel a post coming on).
I don't want it to be a trend or something sucked up by people who just want to be popular, I don't want to see it copied by the likes of Puff Daddy or hear house tracks by rap artists (even though I just got a white lable of snoop dog's BEAUTIFUL and Missy Elliot's 4 MY PEOPLE).

It's nice to hear some of the classics every now and then mixed with the new stuff, that's how I mix. The old stuff influenced those who create the new stuff like old r&b and James Brown music influenced and built rap music.

That dinner theater line had me rollin' icon_rofl.gif

You know I've never really like that word "House" music, it puts our music into a limiting category, I just call it "Dance" Music.

darrow

08-06-2003, 11:11 AM

I think this thread could easily get to be pages and pages of mini-discussions that identify what "the scene" (I've grown more and more to hate that phrase) is and how screwed up it is.

I guess I'd like to hear some specifics about what would make it better.

For instance, one of the points seems to be that there is not enough progression? Progression in terms of what? Music production? Promotions? Should the music move away from 4onthefloor? Should DJs incorporate more genres into their sets? What other types of music do others want to hear (for selfish reasons or with, again, with the goal of making the scene better)?

I'm hoping that if anyone responds, they don't stick to just those specific questions. What I'm really hoping for is for someone to articulate some specific suggestions.

TAD

08-06-2003, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
but wait a minute...isn't having an identity exactly why certain dj's became big? people didn't go listen to tony humphries on the radio or go see him at zanzibar because he was playing the same stuff as everyone, people don't go to shelter because it's like every other party, people didn't go see louie vega play at sound factory bar because it was just like every other party. all those dj's made it because they had their own style and pushed certain records and did certain things differently. the problem now is, everyone wants to be just like shelter, just like louie, and 'house' history has been rewritten to encompass a very small definition of what it suppsoedly is. all this, while shouting about the mythical paradise garage, which was about musical variety and constantly moved forward. the paradise garage had variety, so did the saint. did they have similiar playlists? not a chance.

i don't see the need to constantly reference shelter. i actually agree with a lot of what you say. although i've never made a 180 degree, i've had a few gigs where i played straight up techno, tribal & hard house & had people screaming for more. did i try to "educate" them with deep house? do i look suicidal?

i think people are just frustrated because they are not successful in what they do. you can't blame the music. it's not for everyone. for the few that it is, the slots seem to be filled. maybe people should find another resource to achieve financial stability.

TAD

08-06-2003, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by 1343:
Dont blame the little people..blame the big boys. the big boys have our best interests at heart

08-06-2003, 11:19 AM

Darrow, as it pertains to Jay Rags, he seems to be not only defining deephouse extremely narrowly, but what is "soulful" as well. This narrow definition of house is what Larry, Magus, myself, et al are pointing to as limiters in the growth of the scene, and we'd like to get people to open thier minds a bit more.

To add to Magus's list: Chez Damier, Ron Trent on Prescriptive, etc. can be labelled deep house or techno. Even without talking about progressive and trance, alot of the deep house world discount guys like Derrick Carter, Mark Farina, Roger Sanchez, Junior, Danny Teneglia, etc. just because they've taken a different intrepretation, and been vastly more succesfull.

eileen

08-06-2003, 11:19 AM

i'm an optimist (usually)!

i think that the same things that attracted me to uplifting, soulful house music in intimite underground type settings will always appeal to people, of all ages.

let the big corporate dealers push whatever they want, i don't give a shit, because that's not about me.

some of the best musicians in any genre are playing in tiny venues to people who love them, unkown to the rest of the world.

so when i have my negative moments where i feel like house is full of crappy music, i just go to the people around me who are producing and performing amazing house music and i feel alright.

if the rest of the world sleeps on it, then it's their loss.

i mean, there's a whole nother generation of producers who love the same artists we all loved *back in the day* and were at the same clubs and feeling that same vibe! so when you talk to them, they are like *yeah, that was the joint!* and they agree with you! there are tons of artists where there is no like, ego-driven *that was then/this is now* bullshit.

it doesn't have to be a competition, new vs. old, it's all just evolution.

but you have to actively seek out these producers and artists. the good stuff is just not going to just be handed to you by some big mass marketing machine going, 'here's exactly what you like in a nice shiny shrinkwrapped package sold worldwide'

i know that part of my negativity often just comes from being lazy. when i was a lot younger i spent an ENORMOUS amount of my time seeking out cool shit, places to go, music to listen to, all kinds of stuff. now i have a mortage, kids, my own business, etc. i'm way more selective now and i have less *free* time.

but you just have to make time! because even now, it's like, when you find some producer or artist that nobody heard of who is doing just the exact kind of thing that makes your head spin, that is just so ****ing cool! that's what i think, anyway...

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 11:25 AM

as far as i'm concerned house is a name for a form of dance music that appeared to come from out of chicago in the early to mid eighties...it was fresh sounding ( in a low tech an sometimes cheesy way) and fun

but it is just another form of dance music

theres nothing magical or enlightening or mystical about it...it doesn't have any moe or less power to change souls and lives or the world..its just a form of dance music

there are other forms too

they are just as relevant also

they have beauty too ( shit whats is so "soulful about a 909 or 606 0r 808 or any computer anyway)

you cats need to tear down this false G-D you've been worshipping all this time...there is a full and interesting world of music out there and most of y'all is missing it and even more don't play it

so ultimately this scene has gotten to be old and moldy and stagnant and unappealing and a niche..for dj nerds and those who love them ( as i scream so maniacally on the DHP 6 tapes...soon to come to a site near you)

i feel like Martin Luther nailing this to the doors of the church

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by JL:
Darrow, as it pertains to Jay Rags, he seems to be not only defining deephouse extremely narrowly, but what is "soulful" as well. This narrow definition of house is what Larry, Magus, myself, et al are pointing to as limiters in the growth of the scene, and we'd like to get people to open thier minds a bit more.

To add to Magus's list: Chez Damier, Ron Trent on Prescriptive, etc. can be labelled deep house or techno. Even without talking about progressive and trance, alot of the deep house world discount guys like Derrick Carter, Mark Farina, Roger Sanchez, Junior, Danny Teneglia, etc. just because they've taken a different intrepretation, and been vastly more succesfull. shit its soo damn funny but we couldn't even get to hear an amazing cat like derrick carter at most so called "deep" parties...or Saunderson and those cats..you'd have to go to a "rave"...and supposedly we're the "deep" ones

yeah right

darrow

08-06-2003, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by JL:
Darrow, as it pertains to Jay Rags, he seems to be not only defining deephouse extremely narrowly, but what is "soulful" as well. This narrow definition of house is what Larry, Magus, myself, et al are pointing to as limiters in the growth of the scene, and we'd like to get people to open thier minds a bit more.

To add to Magus's list: Chez Damier, Ron Trent on Prescriptive, etc. can be labelled deep house or techno. Even without talking about progressive and trance, alot of the deep house world discount guys like Derrick Carter, Mark Farina, Roger Sanchez, Junior, Danny Teneglia, etc. just because they've taken a different intrepretation, and been vastly more succesfull. Yeah, I think I'm having a hard time with this thread because I still for some reason keep assuming that most people (especially those from "back in the day") into the broad genre of House are also into at least some other "housey" genres. For instance, I see no way I could ever love early Detroit techno without at least liking SOME techno or DnB. I do admit that I have a harder time finding stuff I like in those genres, but I don't dismiss them any more than I dismiss the myriad of other genres of the moment.

Mocambo

08-06-2003, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
Darrow, as it pertains to Jay Rags, he seems to be not only defining deephouse extremely narrowly, but what is "soulful" as well. This narrow definition of house is what Larry, Magus, myself, et al are pointing to as limiters in the growth of the scene, and we'd like to get people to open thier minds a bit more.

To add to Magus's list: Chez Damier, Ron Trent on Prescriptive, etc. can be labelled deep house or techno. Even without talking about progressive and trance, alot of the deep house world discount guys like Derrick Carter, Mark Farina, Roger Sanchez, Junior, Danny Teneglia, etc. just because they've taken a different intrepretation, and been vastly more succesfull. shit its soo damn funny but we couldn't even get to hear an amazing cat like derrick carter at most so called "deep" parties...or Saunderson and those cats..you'd have to go to a "rave"...and supposedly we're the "deep" ones

yeah right [/QUOTE]LOL@ the "deep" ones statement. Derrick is a cool cat. The last time I saw him was at HiFi Records in Chi. Buying the same mostly older music and other stuff. Not even disco. Talking to him, he very open when it comes to music.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 11:58 AM

"hey man, i hate techno"

next day

"yo, you got that 'nights of the jajuar' track?.. timmy and llv played it and it is soooooo deep!"

GROOVE VICTIM

08-06-2003, 11:59 AM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
"hey man, i hate techno"

next day

"yo, you got that 'nights of the jajuar' track?.. timmy and llv played it and it is soooooo deep!" So true!!!!!!!

graemlins/beerchug.gif

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 12:00 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
"hey man, i hate techno"

next day

"yo, you got that 'nights of the jajuar' track?.. timmy and llv played it and it is soooooo deep!" "duh gee Tennessee, why is this record so much faster on MY turntables?"

08-06-2003, 12:02 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
"hey man, i hate techno"

next day

"yo, you got that 'nights of the jajuar' track?.. timmy and llv played it and it is soooooo deep!" bwahahahaha, totally man. god forbid they find out about "altered states" at the shelter too, they'd have 2 techno records in their crates.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 12:05 PM

Chris Conrad

08-06-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by JL:
dissing techno when you say you love deep house is downright ignorant. exactly...check the history of techno...progressive house and trance is not techno...

Raven Fox

08-06-2003, 12:11 PM

I remember house when it WAS a spiritual thing...
Do YOU remember house? (http://www.kickinmusic.com/ram/dyrh_original.rm)

big ups 2u Larry R... don't stop!
You ARE a legend! You ARE house!

GROOVE VICTIM

08-06-2003, 12:11 PM

Tony Humphries, summer of 93, playing "Plastic Dreams" at "-5".

Peace

08-06-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
dissing techno when you say you love deep house is downright ignorant. exactly...check the history of techno...progressive house and trance is not techno... [/QUOTE]exacts. to some people though, if it doesn't have a r&b or gospel style vocal, it's techno.

D J 1 3 8

08-06-2003, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
duh gee Tennessee, why is this record so much faster on MY turntables?" http://www.sitedocurioso.hpg.ig.com.br/tennessee_tuxedo.jpg

:rolleyes:

DJJM3.COM

08-06-2003, 12:14 PM

What it really comes down to is this. Who is DJing parties(HOUSE music), Who is promoting parties, Who is producing, and who is on a(major or otherwise)label, radio station fighting FOR us?
Everything else is just talk to me..........

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
duh gee Tennessee, why is this record so much faster on MY turntables?" http://www.sitedocurioso.hpg.ig.com.br/tennessee_tuxedo.jpg

:rolleyes: [/QUOTE]whoa...cats is hopping outta the way back machine...nice pic

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by DJJM3:
What it really comes down to is this. Who is DJing parties(HOUSE music), Who is promoting parties, Who is producing, and who is on a(major or otherwise)label, radio station fighting FOR us?
Everything else is just talk to me.......... FIGHTING FOR US?????!!!!!!!!!

i does my own fighting....WILL TO POWER.....

WE dont want it bad enough, obviously

08-06-2003, 12:19 PM

Originally posted by darrow:
Yeah, I think I'm having a hard time with this thread because I still for some reason keep assuming that most people (especially those from "back in the day") into the broad genre of House are also into at least some other "housey" genres. For instance, I see no way I could ever love early Detroit techno without at least liking SOME techno or DnB. I do admit that I have a harder time finding stuff I like in those genres, but I don't dismiss them any more than I dismiss the myriad of other genres of the moment. I hear you Darrow, taste is a personal choice and one that no one can critique. But to dismiss an entire genre that has a common history is another thing altogether.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 12:24 PM

expansions ( it aint just a cool record)

http://deephousepage.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=034126

DJJM3.COM

08-06-2003, 12:28 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
FIGHTING FOR US?????!!!!!!!!!

i does my own fighting....WILL TO POWER.....

WE dont want it bad enough, obviously I'm fighting my own battle as well. But what I mean is who is doing their thing......speak up and everyone else sit down.......

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 12:29 PM

This type of topic is why I love this site's board so much. We can get each other's opinion without miserably straying away from talking about music. While I disagree with alot of the things I've heard I will respect them. I laughed at this young white girl a few months ago when she told me that, and I quote, "I'm not really into disco House, I'm into deep House". Now I understand how she came to see the music that I(35yr) grew up on different than I do. graemlins/acclaim.gif

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by DJJM3:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
FIGHTING FOR US?????!!!!!!!!!

i does my own fighting....WILL TO POWER.....

WE dont want it bad enough, obviously I'm fighting my own battle as well. But what I mean is who is doing their thing......speak up and everyone else sit down....... [/QUOTE]i can dig it

kev

08-06-2003, 12:49 PM

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
[QUOTE]everyone look through their 'house' record collections from the late 80's to the early 90's and count how many major labels they find. quite a few, no? and this is the exact time period many people agree that house had peaked out and was at its best. It ain't just house that "peaked" during this time period. Ask any hip hop head when the golden era was. There were alot of great rock bands during this era, too (Pixies anybody?). Something about the late 80's/early 90's that produced alot of amazing music.

statuskuo

08-06-2003, 12:51 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJJM3:
What it really comes down to is this. Who is DJing parties(HOUSE music), Who is promoting parties, Who is producing, and who is on a(major or otherwise)label, radio station fighting FOR us?
Everything else is just talk to me.......... FIGHTING FOR US?????!!!!!!!!!
i does my own fighting....WILL TO POWER.....WE dont want it bad enough, obviously [/QUOTE]Buddy L,

ETA, please.

C hristian

08-06-2003, 01:01 PM

something about that era....can we say.....

RECESSION?

poverty breeds creativity.

i think even these days, it may be happening. but we just don't know it yet. we are too busy fighting viruses or talking on DHP.

people are making sounds, but the question is, will it ever reach our ears?

probably a bit overly-simplistic, but you understand the point.

[ August 06, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: C hristian ]

statuskuo

08-06-2003, 01:02 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
"hey man, i hate techno"
next day"yo, you got that 'nights of the jajuar' track?.. timmy and llv played it and it is soooooo deep!" hahahahhaha

lyot

08-06-2003, 01:16 PM

Originally posted by eileen:
i'm an optimist (usually)!

i think that the same things that attracted me to uplifting, soulful house music in intimite underground type settings will always appeal to people, of all ages.

let the big corporate dealers push whatever they want, i don't give a shit, because that's not about me.

some of the best musicians in any genre are playing in tiny venues to people who love them, unkown to the rest of the world.

so when i have my negative moments where i feel like house is full of crappy music, i just go to the people around me who are producing and performing amazing house music and i feel alright.

if the rest of the world sleeps on it, then it's their loss.

i mean, there's a whole nother generation of producers who love the same artists we all loved *back in the day* and were at the same clubs and feeling that same vibe! so when you talk to them, they are like *yeah, that was the joint!* and they agree with you! there are tons of artists where there is no like, ego-driven *that was then/this is now* bullshit.

it doesn't have to be a competition, new vs. old, it's all just evolution.

but you have to actively seek out these producers and artists. the good stuff is just not going to just be handed to you by some big mass marketing machine going, 'here's exactly what you like in a nice shiny shrinkwrapped package sold worldwide'

i know that part of my negativity often just comes from being lazy. when i was a lot younger i spent an ENORMOUS amount of my time seeking out cool shit, places to go, music to listen to, all kinds of stuff. now i have a mortage, kids, my own business, etc. i'm way more selective now and i have less *free* time.

but you just have to make time! because even now, it's like, when you find some producer or artist that nobody heard of who is doing just the exact kind of thing that makes your head spin, that is just so ****ing cool! that's what i think, anyway... word graemlins/respekt.gif

i'm totally feeling you..I couldn't care less whether deephouse should become mainstream or not..There are so many good things coming out on the moment in every genre that I do not see a need to get things 'mainstream'. Except for the money it would bring in, what good would it do? To me, that ain't progress. Progress is happening all the time..It's reviving the spirit of freshness in the music..And it it rearly goes without referring to the past. So there should be no 'that was then, this is now' attitude. Just look at what Metro Area does for instance.To me, that's progress!.

greetings.

Bill Blake

08-06-2003, 01:20 PM

When I get home today Im putting on Washing Machine.

Cleo Khary

08-06-2003, 04:53 PM

I think one odf the problems is that many folks are still trying to compartmentalize music into this genre or that genre. I play good music (period). I no longer pidgeon-hole myself into playning "house" because what is "house" really? We make up names for reasons of simplification, convenience, exclusion or inclusion and to attempt to have order. But does good music really need to have any of these things.

It is my opinion that good music is just that--good music! I will play everything from Bach to the Beastie Boys if its "good music." There are of course things that I wont play, things devoid of any soul and harmony, but as a Dj it is my job to move you and inspire you and to bring a little joy into your life and to do that requires a diverse thinker one that recognizes that no two peole are alike thus no one solution is appropriate all the time. ie. Think outside the Box!

Peace

eileen

08-06-2003, 05:15 PM

lyot, thanks - that is so funny that you mention metro area. one of the things that i am a big supporter of is house music performed live, that's a great example of something people are doing more of now, it seems. metro area is bringing a lot of people into this experience and i totally encourage that.

because when you talk about things being a blend of old and new, i think that there is nothing quite like seeing someone perform beautiful soulful house music right in front of your eyes, using only a bunch of gear. it's like the old meets new right there!

i mean, i've seen my man jaswho? for example who perform a live remix of 'follow me' by aly-us, or 'can you feel it' by larry heard, etc., or he'll throw in a tribe called quest sample or whatever he's feeling at that moment, mixing up the straight beats with garage and broken beats, all completely live with no laptop, just like the original house producers did.

or how about live spoken word + house music? the band playground performs this gorgeous eclectic deep dubbed out house music with live poetry and live bass, killer drum programming, live keys, samples and it's totally improvised, a continuous mix not a *jam band*.

stuff like this is totally out there. and if the rest of the world doesn't find out about it, well, that's just more room for me to dance!

seek and ye shall find... smile.gif

Querck

08-06-2003, 06:28 PM

Here's my take on this:

There are only 2 kinds of music: good and bad. This applies to dance music as well. Now, the only way house music can progress and flourish is if people accept that all the other sub-genres of dance music that are "good" are in reality connected to house, and therefore should be presented together with house. This is something that cats in DETROIT understand, but everywhere else people just don't get it. Most Detroit dj's are totally comfortable with playing techno, tech-house, disco house, deep house, broken beat, new jazz--all in the same set. Good music is good music!

Now there is bad dance music that should be avoided: progressive and trance. This is why I have no respect for people like Junior Vasquez and Roger Sanchez. I'm sorry, but I have never heard a single musician that I admire say that they like progressive and trance. That ish is whack, period. But I'll give you a partial list of artists that I think should be embraced by househeads, but for some reason (conservatism) are not. Herbert, Akufen, Dan Bell, John Tejada, Juan Atkins, Domu, Dego, Pepe Bradock, not to mention all the amazing harder techno producers like Rob Hood, Jeff Mills, Claude Young... Why are househeads sleeping on this?

Detroit is the future, and the only way house music will flourish again is if we abandon all the stupid categorizations, and stick to "good" and "bad". There is so much amazing "good" music out there. As long as its funky, and groovy, please PLAY IT!

Speaking of Timmy and Louie: playing Knights of the Jaguar is not enough!!! There is so much other music out there! Not to blame these 2 amazing dj's that I love, but in a way, their conservatism influences everybody else's conservatism in the house scene. It's time to cross boundaries, and venture beyond disco classics and "soulful" house. And yeah, techno, broken beat, minimal, micro, funky, are just as "soulful" to me!

DOTSmusic

08-06-2003, 06:44 PM

what the hell does everyone have against Techno? there is trully no real reason to seperate house and techno especially. but since we all know that it ain't like that, i'mgonna just come out and lay my opinion down.
i think most of the more interesting, creative dance music releases that are coming out nowadays is WAAAAAAYYYYY more on the techier side rather than the housier side.

[ August 06, 2003, 07:46 PM: Message edited by: aLie ]

Dolemite73

08-06-2003, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by aLie:
what the hell does everyone have against Techno?
i think most of the most interesting, creative dance music that is coming out nowadays is WAAAAAAYYYYY more on the techier side rather than the housier side. The lack of musicianship and the lack of "soul" is what turns me off.

Querck

08-06-2003, 06:49 PM

Originally posted by Dolemite73:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aLie:
what the hell does everyone have against Techno?
i think most of the most interesting, creative dance music that is coming out nowadays is WAAAAAAYYYYY more on the techier side rather than the housier side. The lack of musicianship and the lack of "soul" is what turns me off. [/QUOTE]Impossible! Have you ever listened to real techno? It's some of the most soulful stuff out there, and as far as musicianship, don't even get me started! mad1.gif

Dolemite73

08-06-2003, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by dannyboy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dolemite73:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aLie:
what the hell does everyone have against Techno?
i think most of the most interesting, creative dance music that is coming out nowadays is WAAAAAAYYYYY more on the techier side rather than the housier side. The lack of musicianship and the lack of "soul" is what turns me off. [/QUOTE]Impossible! Have you ever listened to real techno? It's some of the most soulful stuff out there, and as far as musicianship, don't even get me started! mad1.gif [/QUOTE]The "real" techno that I do like is the early stuff out of Detroit...not this mass marketed garbage....but if there is some good stuff out there, school me. What are some of the title?

DOTSmusic

08-06-2003, 06:50 PM

Originally posted by Dolemite73:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aLie:
what the hell does everyone have against Techno?
i think most of the most interesting, creative dance music that is coming out nowadays is WAAAAAAYYYYY more on the techier side rather than the housier side. The lack of musicianship and the lack of "soul" is what turns me off. [/QUOTE]techno lacks musicianship?
techno lacks soul?
that's ridiculous.

i think you are generalizing the entire techno sound.

Dolemite73

08-06-2003, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by aLie:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dolemite73:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aLie:
what the hell does everyone have against Techno?
i think most of the most interesting, creative dance music that is coming out nowadays is WAAAAAAYYYYY more on the techier side rather than the housier side. The lack of musicianship and the lack of "soul" is what turns me off. [/QUOTE]techno lacks musicianship?
techno lacks soul?
that's ridiculous.

i think you are generalizing the entire techno sound. [/QUOTE]School me then......the stuff in the 80's out of Detroit is tight...but thats about my limit with techno

08-06-2003, 06:53 PM

Originally posted by dannyboy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dolemite73:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aLie:
what the hell does everyone have against Techno?
i think most of the most interesting, creative dance music that is coming out nowadays is WAAAAAAYYYYY more on the techier side rather than the housier side. The lack of musicianship and the lack of "soul" is what turns me off. [/QUOTE]Impossible! Have you ever listened to real techno? It's some of the most soulful stuff out there, and as far as musicianship, don't even get me started! mad1.gif [/QUOTE]I also find it really hilarious when someone doesn't like techno because it's "souless white" music, when it's as much an expression of african american culture and struggle as house.

Dolemite73

08-06-2003, 06:55 PM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dannyboy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dolemite73:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aLie:
what the hell does everyone have against Techno?
i think most of the most interesting, creative dance music that is coming out nowadays is WAAAAAAYYYYY more on the techier side rather than the housier side. The lack of musicianship and the lack of "soul" is what turns me off. [/QUOTE]Impossible! Have you ever listened to real techno? It's some of the most soulful stuff out there, and as far as musicianship, don't even get me started! mad1.gif [/QUOTE]I also find it really hilarious when someone doesn't like techno because it's "souless white" music, when it's as much an expression of african american culture and struggle as house. [/QUOTE]Wrong.....the stuff out of Detroit in the lat 80's was nice stuff. But once it went mainstream, the whole concept of it was destroyed. But like I said, school me. What are some good techno tunes out now?

DOTSmusic

08-06-2003, 07:05 PM

here are some that are sick as hell.

- Biosphere 2: The Solo
- Eric Kupper presents The K-Scope Project: Atlantis
(yes this is the b side to Latin Blues)
- Glenn Ungerground: Midnight Groove
- The Music Freaks: Wild Pitch
- The Wamdue Project: Neburu Electric Thunderstorm
- Chris Gray: Intelligent Emotions Ep.
- Carl Craig: Urban Culture
- Paperclip People: Clear & Present
- Moby: Heaven
- Black Jazz Chronicles: Tribe

all of these display fantastic musicianship and have soul.
there are so many more, a lot of house heads just seem unwilling willing to give it a chance.

aKiLa

[ August 06, 2003, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: aLie ]

DOTSmusic

08-06-2003, 07:08 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dolemite73:
Wrong.....the stuff out of Detroit in the lat 80's was nice stuff. But once it went mainstream, the whole concept of it was destroyed. But like I said, school me. What are some good techno tunes out now?

you can say the same thing about house but why?
cuz as we all know there are wack ass mainstream house releases (some of em are actually good though but...) and there are the underground bangers. same thing applies to all musical forms, Techno included.

[ August 06, 2003, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: aLie ]

Dolemite73

08-06-2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by aLie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dolemite73:
Wrong.....the stuff out of Detroit in the lat 80's was nice stuff. But once it went mainstream, the whole concept of it was destroyed. But like I said, school me. What are some good techno tunes out now?

you can say the same thing about house but why?
cuz as we all know there are wack ass mainstream house releases (some of em are actually good though but...) and there are the underground bangers. same thing applies to all musical forms, Techno included. I can dig that. I'll explore these tunes and let you know if my mind has changed or not.

08-06-2003, 07:14 PM

Stuff by Fabrice Lig, Titonton Duvante, John Tejeda, Los Hermanos, Mad Mike, Maurice Fulton, Jeff Samuels...

DOTSmusic

08-06-2003, 07:24 PM

Originally posted by JL:
Stuff by Fabrice Lig, Titonton Duvante, John Tejeda, Los Hermanos, Mad Mike, Maurice Fulton, Jeff Samuels... right on.
all these cats put out solid releases constantly.
John Tejada is an amazing multi instrumentalist.
he let me hear the demo's for his I Am Not A Gun project a few years ago. it has a jazz influenced, indie rock sound to it. it's not dance music at all. it's all live instrumentation, everything written and played by him and his partner.

Huey P. Freeman

08-06-2003, 08:15 PM

It's funny to me how some keep up this "our scene is stagnant" blah blah blah. If you don't like the scene change it from within. Seems some here have high ambitions about what they want to happen with the scene and none of the balls to make it happen.

For some to assert we need to be more like the hip hop scene and in the same breath say we need more real musicians is laughable. There are only a handful of real musicians in hip hop. That new 50 song of the week has the same tired as samples and loops as the rest of that shit. While I agree that dj's and producers need to take more chances and be more creative, If you look at the hip hop scene that a few here seem to be in love with, the ones being creative and taking chances are in the underground. Not the mainstream.

I swear to god mother****ers be talking in circles.

House, like pretty much every other form of music, seems to be its best in the underground form. That has been my experience. I don't think house will ever be a viable mainstream music. The reason why I feel this way are simple. HOUSE IS ABOUT THE MUSIC. Other forms of music, especially in mainstream form, are about IMAGE.

If Osunlade, MAW, Dj Gregory or any other producer put out a track about their car,watch, house, bitches or how much ****ing money they got I would be done with them. I wouldn't care how banging it is, it ain't for me. But some people eat this shit up, look at hip hop.

These are just my opinions. Take'em or leave'em. As someone involved with the scene I don't think the situation is that dire. I find more and more music everyday that I like. As long as that keeps happening I'm cool.

jihad muhammad

08-06-2003, 08:25 PM

my feelings exactly larry. no one ever wants to make this thing bigger than what it could be. we sit around and talk about the " love " but we dont know how to make this thing economically powerful like it used to be. we once had an identity but now it's about who can out do who, who has more than the other, who can be the superstar dj, cliques and more cliques.
man, it seems like we just forgot about how to make things happen...maybe that's why some of us like to live in the past. living in the past is much easier than moving on to a better future.

DeesKo

08-06-2003, 08:27 PM

I met this girl, when I was ten years old
And what I loved most she had so much soul
She was old school, when I was just a shorty
Never knew throughout my life she would be there for me
ont he regular, not a church girl she was secular
Not about the money, no studs was mic checkin her
But I respected her, she hit me in the heart
A few New York *****, had did her in the park
But she was there for me, and I was there for her
Pull out a chair for her, turn on the air for her
and just cool out, cool out and listen to her
Sittin on a bone, wishin that I could do her
Eventually if it was meant to be, then it would be
because we related, physically and mentally
And she was fun then, I'd be geeked when she'd come around
Slim was fresh yo, when she was underground
Original, pure untampered and down sister
Boy I tell ya, I miss her

Now periodically I would see
ol girl at the clubs, and at the house parties
She didn't have a body but she started gettin thick quick
DId a couple of videos and became afrocentric
Out goes the weave, in goes the braids beads medallions
She was on that tip about, stoppin the violence
About my people she was teachin me
By not preachin to me but speakin to me
in a method that was leisurely, so easily I approached
She dug my rap, that's how we got close
But then she broke to the West coast, and that was cool
Cause around the same time, I went away to school
And I'm a man of expandin, so why should I stand in her way
She probably get her money in L.A.
And she did stud, she got big pub but what was foul
She said that the pro-black, was goin out of style
She said, afrocentricity, was of the past
So she got into R&B hip-house bass and jazz
Now black music is black music and it's all good
I wasn't salty, she was with the boys in the hood
Cause that was good for her, she was becomin well rounded
I thought it was dope how she was on that freestyle shit
Just havin fun, not worried about anyone
And you could tell, by how her titties hung

I might've failed to mention that this chick was creative
But once the man got you well he altered her native
Told her if she got an image and a gimmick
that she could make money, and she did it like a dummy
Now I see her in commercials, she's universal
She used to only swing it with the inner-city circle
Now she be in the burbs lickin rock and dressin hip
And on some dumb shit, when she comes to the city
Talkin about poppin glocks servin rocks and hittin switches
Now she's a gangsta rollin with gangsta bitches
Always smokin blunts and gettin drunk
Tellin me sad stories, now she only ****s with the funk
Stressin how hardcore and real she is
She was really the realest, before she got into showbiz
I did her, not just to say that I did it
But I'm committed, but so many ****** hit it
That she's just not the same lettin all these groupies do her
I see ****** slammin her, and takin her to the sewer
But I'ma take her back hopin that the shit stop
Cause who I'm talkin bout y'all is ......

[ August 06, 2003, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: DeesKo ]

Dolemite73

08-06-2003, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by DeesKo:
I met this girl, when I was ten years old
And what I loved most she had so much soul
She was old school, when I was just a shorty
Never knew throughout my life she would be there for me
ont he regular, not a church girl she was secular
Not about the money, no studs was mic checkin her
But I respected her, she hit me in the heart
A few New York niggaz, had did her in the park
But she was there for me, and I was there for her
Pull out a chair for her, turn on the air for her
and just cool out, cool out and listen to her
Sittin on a bone, wishin that I could do her
Eventually if it was meant to be, then it would be
because we related, physically and mentally
And she was fun then, I'd be geeked when she'd come around
Slim was fresh yo, when she was underground
Original, pure untampered and down sister
Boy I tell ya, I miss her

Now periodically I would see
ol girl at the clubs, and at the house parties
She didn't have a body but she started gettin thick quick
DId a couple of videos and became afrocentric
Out goes the weave, in goes the braids beads medallions
She was on that tip about, stoppin the violence
About my people she was teachin me
By not preachin to me but speakin to me
in a method that was leisurely, so easily I approached
She dug my rap, that's how we got close
But then she broke to the West coast, and that was cool
Cause around the same time, I went away to school
And I'm a man of expandin, so why should I stand in her way
She probably get her money in L.A.
And she did stud, she got big pub but what was foul
She said that the pro-black, was goin out of style
She said, afrocentricity, was of the past
So she got into R&B hip-house bass and jazz
Now black music is black music and it's all good
I wasn't salty, she was with the boys in the hood
Cause that was good for her, she was becomin well rounded
I thought it was dope how she was on that freestyle shit
Just havin fun, not worried about anyone
And you could tell, by how her titties hung

I might've failed to mention that this chick was creative
But once the man got you well he altered her native
Told her if she got an image and a gimmick
that she could make money, and she did it like a dummy
Now I see her in commercials, she's universal
She used to only swing it with the inner-city circle
Now she be in the burbs lickin rock and dressin hip
And on some dumb shit, when she comes to the city
Talkin about poppin glocks servin rocks and hittin switches
Now she's a gangsta rollin with gangsta bitches
Always smokin blunts and gettin drunk
Tellin me sad stories, now she only ****s with the funk
Stressin how hardcore and real she is
She was really the realest, before she got into showbiz
I did her, not just to say that I did it
But I'm committed, but so many niggaz hit it
That she's just not the same lettin all these groupies do her
I see niggaz slammin her, and takin her to the sewer
But I'ma take her back hopin that the shit stop
Cause who I'm talkin bout y'all is ...... Damn...what Common was spitting back in 1994 could apply to house music now. Nice!

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 08:40 PM

I don't understand why so many people, who claim they love house music, can love techno music so much. I loved the stuff that came out of Detroit in the mid to late 80's(I could call that house back then), but y'all know damn well who's making this !@#$ now and how rhythmless it mostly is. DOES ANY OF YOU TECHNO LOVERS LIKE TO DANCE!! If so, how do you keep from tripping over yourself. You can't even catch a beat from a Digweed/Oakenford type song. This thread is making me insane. I feel like I'm talking to republicans sometimes...you know, always insulting your intelligence with stuff you know is crazy. If you love Techno music, I can respect that, but please stop saying "Techno House", "trans House", "bull@#@! House", etc.

When did we start labeling this music with those house categories anyway. I think we let some infiltrators into our scene in the mid 90's when we weren't looking and they added prefixes to our music so that older white people, who feel that they are too old for techno music, will still listen to them because the word "house" is attatched now.

OK everybody, I admit it, I'm sleepy...peace

DeesKo

08-06-2003, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Dolemite73:
Damn...what Common was spitting back in 1994 could apply to house music now. Nice! More importantly, the reason I quoted something hip-hop is because I watched this exact same ideological struggle happen in B-Boying over the past 5 years with disastrous results.

Peace

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 08:48 PM

DeesKo those lyrics were right on time!!!

DOTSmusic

08-06-2003, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by jay rags:
I don't understand why so many people, who claim they love house music, can love techno music so much. I loved the stuff that came out of Detroit in the mid to late 80's(I could call that house back then), but y'all know damn well who's making this !@#$ now and how rhythmless it mostly is. DOES ANY OF YOU TECHNO LOVERS LIKE TO DANCE!! If so, how do you keep from tripping over yourself. You can't even catch a beat from a Digweed/Oakenford type song. This thread is making me insane. I feel like I'm talking to republicans sometimes...you know, always insulting your intelligence with stuff you know is crazy. If you love Techno music, I can respect that, but please stop saying "Techno House", "trans House", "bull@#@! House", etc.

When did we start labeling this music with those house categories anyway. I think we let some infiltrators into our scene in the mid 90's when we weren't looking and they added prefixes to our music so that older white people, who feel that they are too old for techno music, will still listen to them because the word "house" is attatched now.

OK everybody, I admit it, I'm sleepy...peace see that is exactly it.
people letting their own ignorance influence their decision to dismis a whole genre of music, namely Techno. Oakenfold and Digweed are progressive trance dj's not techno dj's.

i just love music PERIOD. i don't give a damn about what anyone else is labeling it or whether others like it or not.

and by the way i can dance very well, thank you.
and umm, no i'm not some newjack who just got into this
5 years ago. try more like 15 years off and on. and if you really want to get technical i used to break dance to house when i was in 2nd grade, skateboarded listening to house in 5th grade, exposed my cousins in BELIZE to house when i visited there in 8th grade.

need i go on.

[ August 06, 2003, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: aLie ]

JoeB

08-06-2003, 08:53 PM

Huey P. Freeman

08-06-2003, 09:19 PM

Originally posted by jihad muhammad:
my feelings exactly larry. no one ever wants to make this thing bigger than what it could be. we sit around and talk about the " love " but we dont know how to make this thing economically powerful like it used to be. You want to make it bigger make it bigger. Who you waiting on? Some of the people on this board trip me out. It's called undergound house BECAUSE it's not mainstream. There's nothing wrong with the music staying underground. There is a striving undergound hiphop movement, then you have the mainstream garbage. You can have both. If people want to start a movement to make house mainstream go for it. Just like the hiphop I listen to, I'll only **** with the underground. And when was house ever economically powerful?

[ August 06, 2003, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Eargasm ]

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 09:24 PM

All that bullshit sounds the same to me and I try to listen to it.
So what do you think is techno. I thought it was what Derrick and Kevin made in the mid and late 80's & now got turned into some of non-danceable crap that I hear today. I'm trying to get some real enlightenment from you techno guys and I thought someone mentioned digweed/Oakenford.
Now if they aren't what you call techno then is tracks like "Plastic Dreams" considered techno? I like that track, and if inserted in a set would sound nice. But imagine a person who grew up on soulful house music listening to 4 hours of nothing but "Plastic Dreams" type records. That whole experience would be something else. But not what I call House music. And I don't apologize for my feelings either. What you called ignorance, I called you not insulting my damn intelligence.

[ August 06, 2003, 10:27 PM: Message edited by: jay rags ]

julian_kelly

08-06-2003, 09:36 PM

Somebody post a few good new techno online mixes so I can get hip to whats hot.

The Buddy Love Show

08-06-2003, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by jay rags:
I don't understand why so many people, who claim they love house music, can love techno music so much. I loved the stuff that came out of Detroit in the mid to late 80's(I could call that house back then), but y'all know damn well who's making this !@#$ now and how rhythmless it mostly is. DOES ANY OF YOU TECHNO LOVERS LIKE TO DANCE!! If so, how do you keep from tripping over yourself. You can't even catch a beat from a Digweed/Oakenford type song. This thread is making me insane. I feel like I'm talking to republicans sometimes...you know, always insulting your intelligence with stuff you know is crazy. If you love Techno music, I can respect that, but please stop saying "Techno House", "trans House", "bull@#@! House", etc.

When did we start labeling this music with those house categories anyway. I think we let some infiltrators into our scene in the mid 90's when we weren't looking and they added prefixes to our music so that older white people, who feel that they are too old for techno music, will still listen to them because the word "house" is attatched now.

OK everybody, I admit it, I'm sleepy...peace exhibit D (and we all no what that stands for)

"but y'all know damn well who's making this !@#$ now and how rhythmless it mostly is. "

btw..if ya don't dig whites making music be for real and say it....its foul but at least you'd be honest

one might not wear the pointy hats but ya can't hide the pointy head...tsk tsk

JoeB

08-06-2003, 09:48 PM

Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
"but y'all know damn well who's making this !@#$ now and how rhythmless it mostly is. "

btw..if ya don't dig whites making music be for real and say it....its foul but at least you'd be honest
that's exactly the statement that stood out for me but i thought i was just reading too much into it. either way, it's a damn shame.

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 09:55 PM

Yo I think I was explicit in a previous post. There are some incredible White dj's/producers out there but don't get it twisted...I was trying not to say "White" because there are Black dj's out here playing that stuff too. There are lots of good White dj's like a very good dj that I heard at this year's WMC from Chicago named Whytout who I think rocked the hell out of a Deephousepage sponsored party called "Roots". So please don't think that I am biased in that way.

http://www.blackbookscafe.com/images/WMCsat032203-11.jpg

DOTSmusic

08-06-2003, 10:23 PM

Originally posted by jay rags:
And I don't apologize for my feelings either. What you called ignorance, I called you not insulting my damn intelligence. good, there is no need for appologies. most everyone one on the DHP knows that if they can't take the heat, they are on the wrong board.
and no, i was not trying to insult your intelligence.
it just frustrates me to know that people dismiss something
that they might actually like (hence, Plastic Dreams) because they have it confused with something else (Oakenfold).
now don't get me wrong, Oakenfold and those guys do drop some SO CALLED techno in their sets but a good majority of what they play is progressive trance. you know, that SUPPOSED dance music that people need to be on ecstasy to actually dance to.

[ August 06, 2003, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: aLie ]

GrantB

08-06-2003, 10:29 PM

Originally posted by jay rags:
http://www.blackbookscafe.com/images/WMCsat032203-11.jpg Dayum, Whyteout musta been beating that shit! Look girl in the background is struggling to keep her titties on!

icon_rofl.gif

Jay Rags

08-06-2003, 10:34 PM

Yo, people were jumping up and down to this disco track that I heard 3 times that night. I have never heard disco played like that. It was an education in the roots of all this stuff.

Kenrick _

08-06-2003, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by JL:
Darrow, as it pertains to Jay Rags, he seems to be not only defining deephouse extremely narrowly, but what is "soulful" as well. This narrow definition of house is what Larry, Magus, myself, et al are pointing to as limiters in the growth of the scene, and we'd like to get people to open thier minds a bit more.

To add to Magus's list: Chez Damier, Ron Trent on Prescriptive, etc. can be labelled deep house or techno. Even without talking about progressive and trance, alot of the deep house world discount guys like Derrick Carter, Mark Farina, Roger Sanchez, Junior, Danny Teneglia, etc. just because they've taken a different intrepretation, and been vastly more succesfull. ... and don't forget the naked camp either. oh thats right, all the names you and i have mentioned play or produce for white people so...

"thats dat white boy house yo, don't be listening to that."

housebe4titties

08-06-2003, 11:35 PM

:rolleyes:

Querck

08-07-2003, 01:27 AM

Originally posted by Dolemite73:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by dannyboy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Dolemite73:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aLie:
what the hell does everyone have against Techno?
i think most of the most interesting, creative dance music that is coming out nowadays is WAAAAAAYYYYY more on the techier side rather than the housier side. The lack of musicianship and the lack of "soul" is what turns me off. [/QUOTE]Impossible! Have you ever listened to real techno? It's some of the most soulful stuff out there, and as far as musicianship, don't even get me started! mad1.gif [/QUOTE]The "real" techno that I do like is the early stuff out of Detroit...not this mass marketed garbage....but if there is some good stuff out there, school me. What are some of the title? [/QUOTE]There are so many amazing tracks, and within techno I find much more diversity and experimentation than in contemporary house. Some of the artists to look out for: Dan Bell, John Tejada, Shake, Akufen, Basic Channel, Underground Resistance, Carl Craig, Jeff Mills, Rob Hood, Stacey Pullen, Herbert, Aril Brikha, Ayro, Ricardo Villalobos..... ahh, there is so much music out there!!!

Rodney Ransom

08-07-2003, 02:22 AM

With no disrespect intended , I would like to add that it's perfectly o.k for the older heads in the scene, to school people on the true history
of this music. At the same time , this dosen't
give you the right to dog the younger cats that
might have just got in to the scene. Some of you
act as though the world owes you something, because you went to THE GARAGE, THE LOFT, THE FIRST SHELTER, THE SAINT, SAVE THE ROBOTS, SO FOUTH AND SO ON. NOBODY OWES YOU ''JACK'' EXCEPT THE SAME RESPECT YOU GIVE THAT PERSON! Bottom line
this scene is only going to get better when we as
individuals, take the time to respect one another
,and HUMBLE OURSELVES to those who paid there dues. Hey Larry good post..... graemlins/cussing.gif

Ronnie Ron

08-07-2003, 04:23 AM

Originally posted by GrantB:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jay rags:
http://www.blackbookscafe.com/images/WMCsat032203-11.jpg Dayum, Whyteout musta been beating that shit! Look girl in the background is struggling to keep her titties on!

icon_rofl.gif [/QUOTE]Oh Whyteout will BEAT YO ASS DOWN!!!!!

Im sure i have played some Techie type records, if i feel the record is nice enough to fit in my set i will purchase/play it. but i really try to keep it more soulful, the majority of tech records just isnt soulful in my opinion.

R-R

[ August 07, 2003, 05:31 AM: Message edited by: RonnieRon ]

Monny JcIntosh

08-07-2003, 04:54 AM

Originally posted by julian_kelly:
Somebody post a few good new techno online mixes so I can get hip to whats hot. A recent Dan Curtin mix...

http://downlowmusic.org/Mp3s/dan%20curtin-interstellar%20groove%201_low.mp3

His latest 12" for Downlow, Distort Archive Desire, is a real return to form, too.

Some more techno I've bought recently:

Krikor "Pas De Norm" (FR Karat)
Carl Craig & Laurent Garnier "Tres Demented" (US Planet E)
Akufen "My Way [Dan Bell Remix]" (US Force Inc)
Comtron "What We Sell" (UK Black Label)
Dopplereffekt "Linear Accelerator" (DE Gigolo CD)
Dynarec "R Cam" (NL Delsin)
Claro Intelecto "Peace Of Mind" (UK AI)
Abstract Thought "Hypothetical Situations" (UK Kombination Research)
Alden Tyrell "Phaze Me" (NE Panama)
Ultradyne "Age Of Discontent" (EU Pi Gao Movement)
Jeff Mills "Medium" (US Axis)

And I just had a kicking night out listening to Dan Bell DJ last weekend.

[ August 07, 2003, 05:58 AM: Message edited by: Jonny McIntosh ]

ngeso

08-07-2003, 05:04 AM

"Our scene is too old, too entrenched in the past, scared of anything that pushes boudaries, too reliant on technology, and most importantly to economically ignorant to really survive as a viable cultural force"[L. Rauson]

i read the first two-and-a-half pages of this topic, i did not bother with the rest.

mass youth culture today is built the all-prevalent dissemination of visual media. if today something cannot be seen, it will not make a cultural impact.

so while we, an on average overaged extra-special-interest-group meet in a globally exclusive seclusion, sandwiched somewhere inbetween

- an apparently inherent aversion to all things after us;
- a desperate clamoring for unconditional respect based on our proclaimed eldership standing;
- an approach to art dissemination that is handled in a highly conspirational and secretive manner for whatever purposes; and
- our distress at not running things from the top down (the way we think it should be run),

the truth is that today's game is about music television, reality TV, the broadcast search for superstardom, heavy franchising of fun sports, fun drinks, fun games, game consoles and the democratic promise that the personal computer renders the individual an all-creative, artistically enabled entity for comparitively few dollars. it is about pictures and imagery and virtual reality and "superbeauty" and the narcistic display of the 'Bod'. youth culture is about looking good . that is how mainstream works today. and this is also the only chance that house has, if it must 'blow up', as so many on DHP seem to think.

somebody mentioned something about jazz, and how some of that type of styling should be considered to rander deep house.....what? we're already there, people! THIS here is the Official Preservation Hall of House Music.

somebody mentioned something about marketing house music to white people being impossible? come to Ibiza or Aya Napa or check out a parade every other weekend in a European city of your choice - except that is probably too techno or drum & bass or whatever, right? what were the last 10 years of UK clubbing and superclubbing about - Trade, B2B, Hard Times, Cream, Gatecrasher, MoS et al? thousands of white kids doing their thing to house music, Roger Sanchez, Tony Humphries, LLV, David Morales etc. running the front office.

oh yeah, there will be new kids. and they'll run a new show. the question is not (and has never been!) whether the kids dance to the older beat. rather we need to ask ourselves, if we're able to keep up with the pace, people.

you know something else? when people like Tee Scott or Larry Levan or whoever did this thing with two copies and extending the break and making music seamless and all that? you bet there were some distraught 40+ yearold Day-one-cats badmouthing that type of playing, going on about "how can these guys do away with microphone introductions to each song just like that...'s'against the rules!...and how come that instrumental is so stripped down and taking so
long and the world is gonna end for sure yada-yada-yada...................................

peace. ngeso.

[ August 07, 2003, 06:14 AM: Message edited by: ngeso ]

08-07-2003, 05:22 AM

Originally posted by ngeso:
oh yeah, there will be new kids. and they'll run a new show. the question is not (and has never been!) whether the kids dance to the older beat. rather we need to ask ourselves, if we're able to keep up with the pace, people.....

peace. ngeso. Thank you for saving me all the typing.... :D :D

(I might have said it a little differently, but the end result would basically be the same)

"Time Waits For No One" Jeane Carn (Philadelphia International)

darrow

08-07-2003, 06:40 AM

very well written, ngeso

though...I do wonder how many of us fit into the primary things you pointed out:

- an apparently inherent aversion to all things after us;
- a desperate clamoring for unconditional respect based on our proclaimed eldership standing;
- an approach to art dissemination that is handled in a highly conspirational and secretive manner for whatever purposes; and
- our distress at not running things from the top down (the way we think it should be run),

I'm not questioning your insight as much as I'm questioning my own perceptsions and understanding of the demographics of this board and the behavior of board members.

I still don't think i have a good idea of the board's makeup. There are what appears to be over 3400+ people here. It would be interesting to do a real survey of the board...ages, music tastes, buying tendencies (music related), etc.

Is it possible that the members that rail the loudest against change and clutch the most to Back In The Day are really only a small portion (or at least not the majority) on DHP? It seems like the loudest voices are the ones that often shape my perception of the board, including my perception of those who never say anything (Just how many of the 3400 actually do post on a regular basis would be another interesting tidbit to see along with the rest of the demographics information).

I reread the things you pointed out again. (after typing what I just did) and now I'm wondering if maybe the question is "to what extent does each of us fit into those things?" as opposed to me asking whether we do or don't fit into them. For instance, the first one you pointed out could really be a characteristic of getting older in general (not just related to House or DHP). I'm certainly more resistant to many (not all) things that come out of the current crop of TV, Radio, Retail, etc. than I was say in my teens or early 20s. I can bet by the time I'm in my 60s, I'll be saying "those damned youngins!" at least once a week.

Maybe the task is to check ourselves and make sure we don't get totally out of touch with today's culture, though we should recognize that the older we get the more removed from youth culture we'll be (and I'm not sure there's anything wrong with that).

That is way more than I meant to type. I started meandering.

Really the main things I wanted to get across were...

1. Hmmm...what are the DHP demographics
2. To what extent do we fit into the things ngeso pointed out (related to House or not)

[ August 07, 2003, 07:46 AM: Message edited by: darrow ]

Jay Rags

08-07-2003, 06:43 AM

I have followed this thread from the start because it was a very interesting topic. I have noticed a couple of sarcastic comments where people say "but white people are too techno right?" and words to that effect. I don't remember anyone saying White people don't feel House music. I know I have spoke about my feeling on Techno music, which attracts a lot of White people. Everybody knows Ibiza got it goin' on.

larry rauson

08-07-2003, 07:04 AM

Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by larry rauson:
Our scene is too old, too entrenced in the past, scared of anything that pushes boudaries, too reliant on technology, and most importantly to economically ignorant to really survive as a viable cultural force. House has no face, no identity, no true outlet for dissemination, house has no self awareness, but at the same time is bound by too many definitions. House has an open door policy in terms of who can perform, and produce house, that has got to stop. Alot of the garbage that clogs the channels of distribution would be eliminated.

My great fear is that one day going to a party means going to Avery Fischer Hall, to see a seventy year old Tony Humphries play a set of Zanzibar classics while we sit in our seats clapping our hands talking about how we used to dance, while PBS is begging for dollars to support this great programming. I'd like at some point, if I ever get older, to say I had something to do with whatever this scene turns into and be proud about it. The past five years leave me only a little hope that this may come to pass.

Larry "I Wannabe a Legend" Rauson Larry, I'm quoting you not to argue with you but because I'm trying to make sure I stick to the original statement.

I was wondering if you or others could give some examples of what has pushed boundaries that you feel people in the scene are scared of.

When you say that there is too much reliance on technology, do you mean from the music production standpoint? Are you saying that the reliance on technology is masking (hmmm...or maybe amplifying) the lack of musicianship?

In what ways are people in the House scene more economically ignorant than others? [/QUOTE]Darrow, i wanted to respond to you yesterday, but I had do do some labor for a change...economic ignorance...house business is undiversified, there has to be developed some clothing lines, some drinks, refreshments, techno-gadgets, general merchandising that relate directly back to the music, record labels have got to start re-releasing their back catalog, there have got to be more e-zines, underground publications that specialize in promoting the people of house, not the clubs, or the indivdual labels, artists really need to get a handle on how the business side of music really works, and consumers and presenters need to get off this idea that BMI and ASCAP are trying to rip them off, you wanna support this scene, right there is the first key...make sure that the poeple who actually make this music get what they are supposed to, and you guarantee more and probably better music down the line...they (artist's and producers) need to be agressive about how and where their music is released. If you have a single only available in NY Chi, and Dc, really what's the point of having a record? Ther is no reason your record should not be available in the Phillipines, Iran, and Somalia. There is IN FACT a market for American music in these countries, as well as the rest of the world.

Technology, imo, has really made the player obsolete... an example, the K2000 has an auto arpegiattor, why take piano lessons? I've said it before, and I'll say it again, peeps have got to learn to play, or this ain't going nowhere...Enuf for now I've got to do work.

Larry

Jay Rags

08-07-2003, 07:35 AM

Yo Larry, just in case you didn't see my post before....Just wanted to say nice thread. It sparked so much debate.

larry rauson

08-07-2003, 07:41 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
Yo Larry, just in case you didn't see my post before....Just wanted to say nice thread. It sparked so much debate. these kinds thread topics always do!

Larry

08-07-2003, 07:47 AM

Jay, no disrespect, but you have no idea what techno is, and I think your aversion to it may srping from your lack of exposure to the artform. Saying techno is Ibiza, Oakenfeld, etc is ignorant of this amazing undeground scene. Open your mind, and check out some of the artists that were listed above, you'll be amazed.

Regarding old v young, there are lots of young cats out there that know their history, but have their eyes on the future. They know they can't go backwards (to the Box, Garage, etc.), so they take the lessons learned and pave the way ahead. I think there's animosity from older cats when they see young cats doing different shit, and alot of times older cats will simply dismiss this as them not knowing their shit.

JMJ

08-07-2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by GrantB:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jay rags:
http://www.blackbookscafe.com/images/WMCsat032203-11.jpg Dayum, Whyteout musta been beating that shit! Look girl in the background is struggling to keep her titties on!

icon_rofl.gif [/QUOTE]I believe the girl in the background is Delilah, Whyteout's lady. She posts on the board. I'm sure she'll be excited to read this.....JMJ graemlins/bolt.gif

Jay Rags

08-07-2003, 08:13 AM

Yo JL you jumped right in on something I said and got it totally twisted! Someone was making a comment defending how White people do feel House and said Ibiza is very rich in House Music. I totally agreed with that and definitely didn't relate it to Techno. Since you keep refering to my words as ignorant then that's what I am about to do. TECHNO SOUNDS LIKE !#@$. It's way to damn fast to hear for hours at a time. I just listened to a mix that someone graciously posted for our listening pleasure. I listened to it because I wanted to know if maybe I was wrong. I am not and I am going to find out where you play in dc and come to hear you give me a headache. Instead of you politely trying to enlighten this veteran you totally confirmed what I feel.

[ August 07, 2003, 09:16 AM: Message edited by: jay rags ]

08-07-2003, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
Yo JL you jumped right in on something I said and got it totally twisted! Someone was making a comment defending how White people do feel House and said Ibiza is very rich in House Music. I totally agreed with that and definitely didn't relate it to Techno. Since you keep refering to my words as ignorant then that's what I am about to do. TECHNO SOUNDS LIKE !#@$. It's way to damn fast to hear for hours at a time. I just listened to a mix that someone graciously posted for our listening pleasure. I listened to it because I wanted to know if maybe I was wrong. I am not and I am going to find out where you play in dc and come to hear you give me a headache. Instead of you politely trying to enlighten this veteran you totally confirmed what I feel. er uh... this is in your exact words dude:

I don't understand why so many people, who claim they love house music, can love techno music so much. I loved the stuff that came out of Detroit in the mid to late 80's(I could call that house back then), but y'all know damn well who's making this !@#$ now and how rhythmless it mostly is. DOES ANY OF YOU TECHNO LOVERS LIKE TO DANCE!! If so, how do you keep from tripping over yourself. You can't even catch a beat from a Digweed/Oakenford type song. This thread is making me insane. I feel like I'm talking to republicans sometimes...you know, always insulting your intelligence with stuff you know is crazy. If you love Techno music, I can respect that, but please stop saying "Techno House", "trans House", "bull@#@! House", etc.

When did we start labeling this music with those house categories anyway. we started labeling shit when people like you decided what is, and what isn't house based on your own narrow definition of it.

Additionally...

All that bullshit sounds the same to me and I try to listen to it.
So what do you think is techno. I thought it was what Derrick and Kevin made in the mid and late 80's & now got turned into some of non-danceable crap that I hear today. I'm trying to get some real enlightenment from you techno guys and I thought someone mentioned digweed/Oakenford.
Now if they aren't what you call techno then is tracks like "Plastic Dreams" considered techno? I like that track, and if inserted in a set would sound nice. But imagine a person who grew up on soulful house music listening to 4 hours of nothing but "Plastic Dreams" type records. That whole experience would be something else. But not what I call House music. And I don't apologize for my feelings either. What you called ignorance, I called you not insulting my damn intelligence.You repeatedly dismiss techno as "bullshit, etc". And you stated it above, if you grew up ONLY listeing to soulful house (which wasn't comparmentalized in those terms till 5-6 years ago), of course you won't understand the full breadth of house.

furthermore shit like this:

I laughed at this young white girl a few months ago when she told me that, and I quote, "I'm not really into disco House, I'm into deep House". combined with this:

that some white people's definition of House music includes some of that stuff. I hated to go there but I want St Magus to understand that I love House music and not what some have twisted and returned to us as house. combined with this:

I don't understand why so many people, who claim they love house music, can love techno music so much. I loved the stuff that came out of Detroit in the mid to late 80's(I could call that house back then), but y'all know damn well who's making this !@#$ now and how rhythmless it mostly is. DOES ANY OF YOU TECHNO LOVERS LIKE TO DANCE!! If so, how do you keep from tripping over yourself. You can't even catch a beat from a Digweed/Oakenford type song. This thread is making me insane. I feel like I'm talking to republicans sometimes...you know, always insulting your intelligence with stuff you know is crazy. If you love Techno music, I can respect that, but please stop saying "Techno House", "trans House", "bull@#@! House", etc. Makes it clear to everyone else here that you think techno is souless twisted by white people music that you can't dance to. It's laughable to you. You've also repeatedly misconstrued techno with the shite that Digweed, Sasha, Oakie etc play. That is a misconception and shows ignorance as to what techno really is.

08-07-2003, 08:29 AM

by the way, i play at Open Door in DC every Friday, if you wanna roll through, I'll put you down on the list. just email me: info@opendoordc.com.

ngeso

08-07-2003, 08:33 AM

a bunch of happy people having a nice 'knees-up' on a hot summer day.

http://www.trancedomain.com/images/lp2001-krplpb194.jpg

Jay Rags

08-07-2003, 08:47 AM

So where in all of that did you find me saying Ibiza is Techno. And why are you brushing off Oak***/Digweed when they do make some of that stuff you like. I listened to one of your mixes on your site. What do you call what you do. It don't sound like Techno to me. I even heard "The Warning" in your mix. But I tell you something my feelings about Techno isn't going to change too much as long as people try to say we should be open to House music progressing....and that Techno music is where it might progress to.

[ August 07, 2003, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: jay rags ]

08-07-2003, 08:53 AM

One misunderstanding, but you made it clear that you thought Oakie, etc were techno. They might play SOME techno in their trance sets, but oh this is getting all too particular. If you don't like techno, that's fine. Additionally, no one is saying that techno is where house is progressing, or vice versa. Good djs play it all - classics, house, techno, funk, r&b, soulful, techy, east coast, west coast, etc etc. It's when you start dismissing an entire sound based on misrepresentations that things get too pigeonholed and narrowminded.

Jay Rags

08-07-2003, 09:03 AM

I give up.........I do agree with you on one thing and that's about dj's playing all kinds of music in their set....just as long as it's on beat.

I think we can market House a little better without it getting all "cornified" by the mainstream. When I visit a record store that is not a special underground dance store the selections are slim to none. Thank god I know plenty of good House music dj's and producers or It would be hard to find good House. I wouldn't be able to just go out of the house and find good House music in a store nearby.

[ August 07, 2003, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: jay rags ]

darrow

08-07-2003, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by jay rags:
....and that Techno music is where it might progress to. Hey Jay Rags, this last piece was the most interesting to me.

You voiced something that I've heard others voice in similar ways. I can sort of understand how you arrived there. The thread has turned into sort of Techno vs. Deep House discussion. I think that direction is a misguided one, but maybe I'm missing the issue. I don't think people are saying that House should progress and that the result be Techno, but I can't speak for everyone. I think Techno was mentioned and bam..the thread latched onto that and off it went.

General thoughts not just to jay rags...

As I read the thread this morning, I thought about House and progression or maybe not progression, but alternatives. One producer that came to mind is P'taah (Chris Brann). His stuff is viewed as quite "out there" sometimes and maybe it's too out there for most, but he seems to be one pushing the envelope in at least a different direction than the straight up 4onthefloor stuff. I would LOVE for more people to push stuff in a different direction (or directions...and I don't mean that I want more stuff sounding like P'taah). Now, is Ptaah considered Techno? Is he considered Progressive? I don't know...I just know he puts out some very interesting, not-standard, sort of outthere stuff that also has "soul" (at least to me).

I get the impression from this thread that there are many in the "deep soulful house" community that find even stuff like Ptaah puts out "not House enough". If people do think this of him and others with similar sounds and these releases seem to be examples of fresh air or newness or progression or whatever term should be used, I really do wonder how accepting people would be to the less-than-traditional approach to dance music with soul.

D J 1 3 8

08-07-2003, 09:22 AM

Monny JcIntosh

08-07-2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by julian_kelly:
Somebody post a few good new techno online mixes so I can get hip to whats hot. A recent Dan Curtin mix...

http://downlowmusic.org/Mp3s/dan%20curtin-interstellar%20groove%201_low.mp3

His latest 12" for Downlow, Distort Archive Desire, is a real return to form, too.

[/QUOTE]I've been listening to that mix you posted and there is some nice shit in there. Is there a playlist posted for this somewhere? Thanks. [/QUOTE]Julian, tracklisting is:

1. tres demented demented drums version planet-e
2. moodyman silence in the secret garden peacefrog
3. yotoko all creation remix delsin
4. rewerk you're so just just playhouse
5. titonton&john tejada freeky deaky residual
6. dan curtin in and out of space native
7. john tejada music for doubles (dj abstract mix) palette
8. losoul jam playhouse
9. rick wade i do believe funky chocolate
10. bear who? salud eterno camouflage
11. derrick carter where you at? classic
12. aztec mystic ascension UR
13. tres demented demented (or just crazy) planet-e
14. lenny white nocturne nemperor

Ron la Rock

08-07-2003, 12:18 PM

alrighty

I think what larry is saying in terms of musicianship is that NOTHIN I mean NOTHIN will replace INSPIRATION something of the human spirit that no piece of technology can replace
I think....
however the technology is not the enemy in this case its the sheer lazyness that has come with
todays all 2 easy process believe no matter what TOOLS one uses it will not make you dope if your not really thier(inspired) in your heart with music

however once again the technology & didgital process is not the enemy and remember everything
we use (these boards our pcs, them damm turntables, mixers and all are advances in technology in some way shape of form)

what bothers me in these debates is this SOUL vs TECHNO bullshit 1ce again please someone define
what is SOUL??
(remember I'm a black born bread motherfukhu from the South Bx raised on soul music and all in encompises)

do you people realize all the music being made today is made with technologie you claim you are so against?
believe
BLAZE & OSUNLANDE & BONGO JOE are using the same equipment(samplers,sequencers,automated boards & the new studio killer-PRO TOOLS) as JEFF MILLS,JAUN ATKINS etc..& so on
so please wether the feel is more organic or metalic is does not matter as long a it is good
so please enuff of this bull-revisionist-shit!

its no secret that all DANCE music has been at the 4 front of electronics in music since (drum roll please)DISCO so all you deep soulful mo fos need 2 stop this I don't like techno shit you sound silly
as the best of the best cuts 4 the last 30 yrs or so of dance espec the last 20 have been made with electronic & electronic sounding results in other words this shit has been eletronica long before someone asshole came up with that tired tag
hahaha SOULFUL headz the jokes on you
oh please name these soul records in house that weren't made with electronic equipment please???
or these classic soulful
tunes that not did not have a tech feel 2 them??
hell i thought deep meant how dope you were rocking the drum patterns with the keyboard lines oh well silly me/must be the hiphop(eletrofunk) in me sorry
more than garaunteed you will not find any cause all were made with(technology) than without cause some have more melodie or rythm is not the point
the more flavor the better
oh by the way a vocal does not make a joint any better or more soulful or meaningful or less interesting than a track without
in fact
many vocals joints espec in the last 5 yrs or so have been graemlins/puke.gif
WACK as hell ( 2 bad many feel these are the hits) un adventerous (safe) and boring
so puuhl-leaze!
ans since when any music hasn't been inspired by and not influenced other musics?
this is part of the bueaty of it all but its been lost in house as well parts of hiphop in terms of other styles sparking our creativity

I'm a get off it 4 now cause we've been thru this already :rolleyes: the parts & posters I agree with have said it best (magus/chris graemlins/beerchug.gif )

but i'll be back
bread buddha sweets & a bbq (http://geocities.com/hardsoulpresents)
graemlins/cool_shades.gif

messiah

08-07-2003, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by larry rauson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by larry rauson:
Our scene is too old, too entrenced in the past, scared of anything that pushes boudaries, too reliant on technology, and most importantly to economically ignorant to really survive as a viable cultural force. House has no face, no identity, no true outlet for dissemination, house has no self awareness, but at the same time is bound by too many definitions. House has an open door policy in terms of who can perform, and produce house, that has got to stop. Alot of the garbage that clogs the channels of distribution would be eliminated.

My great fear is that one day going to a party means going to Avery Fischer Hall, to see a seventy year old Tony Humphries play a set of Zanzibar classics while we sit in our seats clapping our hands talking about how we used to dance, while PBS is begging for dollars to support this great programming. I'd like at some point, if I ever get older, to say I had something to do with whatever this scene turns into and be proud about it. The past five years leave me only a little hope that this may come to pass.

Larry "I Wannabe a Legend" Rauson Larry, I'm quoting you not to argue with you but because I'm trying to make sure I stick to the original statement.

I was wondering if you or others could give some examples of what has pushed boundaries that you feel people in the scene are scared of.

When you say that there is too much reliance on technology, do you mean from the music production standpoint? Are you saying that the reliance on technology is masking (hmmm...or maybe amplifying) the lack of musicianship?

In what ways are people in the House scene more economically ignorant than others? [/QUOTE]Technology, imo, has really made the player obsolete... an example, the K2000 has an auto arpegiattor, why take piano lessons? I've said it before, and I'll say it again, peeps have got to learn to play, or this ain't going nowhere...Enuf for now I've got to do work.

Larry [/QUOTE]I would think to believe that when you were growing up new technology of those days were definately eye candy.

You can't tell me that if there were a machine like the one you mentioned, around before you started taking lessons that you would not be the least bit interested as to how it worked.

Chris Conrad

08-07-2003, 01:25 PM

regarding 'techno'..why is it that every time it is brought up, people have to go bring up oakenfold and digweed!? find me one interview with any of them two where they themselves call what they do 'techno'... find any magazine that reviews records, as stupid as some of those magazines are, where they classify any of these two guys' productions as 'techno'...regarding what they play or produce, i've heard various names assigned to that...oakenfold early on championed trance, and was involved in the early goa trance scene. lately its 'progressive breaks'. same goes for digweed, mainly progressive and tribal. oakenfold, by the way, early on was a hip hop dj before getting into regular house.

one thing i've noticed, and this is interesting...a lot of the current progressive dj's who have been involved in the scene for a long time come from the same bakground musically as many 'deep, soulful house' dj's. i bought part of a collection from a prominent nj progressive/commercial dj that lives in my town several years ago. up until the mid nineties, his collection consisted of the same 'classics' and underground house standards as all of us. this also goes for many of the people i used to party and dj with. the few who remained involved in the club scene went to the harder side of things in the mid nineties. the others who stopped, when i run into them, can't believe house still exsists.

Cheddar

08-07-2003, 01:35 PM

Does it all really matter? When will people stop, and just try to have fun with it? If you are not having fun..and complaining..this aint for you.

Cheddar

08-07-2003, 01:35 PM

ooops

[ August 07, 2003, 02:36 PM: Message edited by: 1343 ]

Chris Conrad

08-07-2003, 01:36 PM

regarding technology...like ron paizley said, technology has always been a major part of this...the problem is now, there is almost too much technology and everyone is jumping on the production bandwagon...remember a lot of early house tracks, you'd be like, damn, how the hell did they do that!? what the hell is that sample!? now, a lot of so called 'deeeeepppp, soulful house' has a watered down, generic sound to it. much like we complain about pop radio and hip hop being the same, the same things can be said for our genre. i'm tired of hearing tracks that sound like the same person did them. and i'm tired of being able to identify what software or sample library certain tracks come from. for example, a famous well know producer that was mentioned in the thread about prolific producers of the last few years, had a certain track out last year that quite a few people were raving about. this certain producer is often described in mythical terms regarding his productions. so a few months back, my friend is setting up his new project studio, and we're loading software and sample libraries into it. we start goofing around with some sounds to test out the software and monitors. what do i find, all the sounds contained on the famous producers track. the grooveline, the vocal sample and main parts of the track were all available on one particular piece of widely available software sample library. in five minutes, my friend recreated the track, minus the bass line, which was not in that software.

another thing...Reason is a great piece of software to make tracks with, there's a ton of creative things you can do with it and a gret way to learn the basics of making a track. However, records should not be coming out that sound exactly like the standard presets in Reason slopped together, and gee good golly, i got me a house track.

Ron la Rock

08-07-2003, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
[/qb]I've been listening to that mix you posted and there is some nice shit in there. Is there a playlist posted for this somewhere? Thanks. [/qb][/QUOTE]Julian, tracklisting is:

1. tres demented demented drums version planet-e
2. moodyman silence in the secret garden peacefrog
3. yotoko all creation remix delsin
4. rewerk you're so just just playhouse
5. titonton&john tejada freeky deaky residual
6. dan curtin in and out of space native
7. john tejada music for doubles (dj abstract mix) palette
8. losoul jam playhouse
9. rick wade i do believe funky chocolate
10. bear who? salud eterno camouflage
11. derrick carter where you at? classic
12. aztec mystic ascension UR
13. tres demented demented (or just crazy) planet-e
14. lenny white nocturne nemperor [/QB][/QUOTE]

yo this h*t is bumpim I'm feelin this
of
coarse love the moodyman track & the joint right after it is killin it graemlins/thumbsup.gif so far so good

Querck

08-07-2003, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by julian_kelly:
Somebody post a few good new techno online mixes so I can get hip to whats hot. A recent Dan Curtin mix...

http://downlowmusic.org/Mp3s/dan%20curtin-interstellar%20groove%201_low.mp3

His latest 12" for Downlow, Distort Archive Desire, is a real return to form, too.

Some more techno I've bought recently:

Krikor "Pas De Norm" (FR Karat)
Carl Craig & Laurent Garnier "Tres Demented" (US Planet E)
Akufen "My Way [Dan Bell Remix]" (US Force Inc)
Comtron "What We Sell" (UK Black Label)
Dopplereffekt "Linear Accelerator" (DE Gigolo CD)
Dynarec "R Cam" (NL Delsin)
Claro Intelecto "Peace Of Mind" (UK AI)
Abstract Thought "Hypothetical Situations" (UK Kombination Research)
Alden Tyrell "Phaze Me" (NE Panama)
Ultradyne "Age Of Discontent" (EU Pi Gao Movement)
Jeff Mills "Medium" (US Axis)

And I just had a kicking night out listening to Dan Bell DJ last weekend. [/QUOTE]Hey, that Akufen is sick!!! And I betcha 98% of "house" dj's don't even know about this ish (at least on the U.S. east coast). I laugh when I read people bitching about how house is stale and boring, when in reality there is music like that coming out all the time, and keeps getting better.

And Dan Bell is a primary example of a great dance music dj. Not house, not techno, but freaking amazing dance music!

Ron la Rock

08-07-2003, 04:22 PM

yo without a doubt the last three joints on this mix is ridiculous AR15firing.gif AR15firing.gif

Ron la Rock

08-07-2003, 04:24 PM

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
regarding technology...like ron paizley said, technology has always been a major part of this...the problem is now, there is almost too much technology and everyone is jumping on the production bandwagon...remember a lot of early house tracks, you'd be like, damn, how the hell did they do that!? what the hell is that sample!? now, a lot of so called 'deeeeepppp, soulful house' has a watered down, generic sound to it. much like we complain about pop radio and hip hop being the same, the same things can be said for our genre. i'm tired of hearing tracks that sound like the same person did them. and i'm tired of being able to identify what software or sample library certain tracks come from. for example, a famous well know producer that was mentioned in the thread about prolific producers of the last few years, had a certain track out last year that quite a few people were raving about. this certain producer is often described in mythical terms regarding his productions. so a few months back, my friend is setting up his new project studio, and we're loading software and sample libraries into it. we start goofing around with some sounds to test out the software and monitors. what do i find, all the sounds contained on the famous producers track. the grooveline, the vocal sample and main parts of the track were all available on one particular piece of widely available software sample library. in five minutes, my friend recreated the track, minus the bass line, which was not in that software.

another thing...Reason is a great piece of software to make tracks with, there's a ton of creative things you can do with it and a gret way to learn the basics of making a track. However, records should not be coming out that sound exactly like the standard presets in Reason slopped together, and gee good golly, i got me a house track. OOOOOHHHH graemlins/nono.gif

Chris Conrad

08-07-2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by Ron paizley:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
regarding technology...like ron paizley said, technology has always been a major part of this...the problem is now, there is almost too much technology and everyone is jumping on the production bandwagon...remember a lot of early house tracks, you'd be like, damn, how the hell did they do that!? what the hell is that sample!? now, a lot of so called 'deeeeepppp, soulful house' has a watered down, generic sound to it. much like we complain about pop radio and hip hop being the same, the same things can be said for our genre. i'm tired of hearing tracks that sound like the same person did them. and i'm tired of being able to identify what software or sample library certain tracks come from. for example, a famous well know producer that was mentioned in the thread about prolific producers of the last few years, had a certain track out last year that quite a few people were raving about. this certain producer is often described in mythical terms regarding his productions. so a few months back, my friend is setting up his new project studio, and we're loading software and sample libraries into it. we start goofing around with some sounds to test out the software and monitors. what do i find, all the sounds contained on the famous producers track. the grooveline, the vocal sample and main parts of the track were all available on one particular piece of widely available software sample library. in five minutes, my friend recreated the track, minus the bass line, which was not in that software.

another thing...Reason is a great piece of software to make tracks with, there's a ton of creative things you can do with it and a gret way to learn the basics of making a track. However, records should not be coming out that sound exactly like the standard presets in Reason slopped together, and gee good golly, i got me a house track. OOOOOHHHH graemlins/nono.gif [/QUOTE]hey, just calling it as it is...i would never name names or which tracks...

eileen

08-07-2003, 05:13 PM

that is so true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ART=RISK

housebe4titties

08-07-2003, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by JL:
Regarding old v young, there are lots of young cats out there that know their history, but have their eyes on the future. They know they can't go backwards (to the Box, Garage, etc.), so they take the lessons learned and pave the way ahead. I think there's animosity from older cats when they see young cats doing different shit, and alot of times older cats will simply dismiss this as them not knowing their shit. can i give you a big phat juicy kiss for this comment??

08-08-2003, 07:34 AM

Sure! But there's no telling what Leslie will do to you!

larry rauson

08-08-2003, 07:59 AM

Originally posted by messiah:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by larry rauson:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by darrow:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by larry rauson:
Our scene is too old, too entrenced in the past, scared of anything that pushes boudaries, too reliant on technology, and most importantly to economically ignorant to really survive as a viable cultural force. House has no face, no identity, no true outlet for dissemination, house has no self awareness, but at the same time is bound by too many definitions. House has an open door policy in terms of who can perform, and produce house, that has got to stop. Alot of the garbage that clogs the channels of distribution would be eliminated.

My great fear is that one day going to a party means going to Avery Fischer Hall, to see a seventy year old Tony Humphries play a set of Zanzibar classics while we sit in our seats clapping our hands talking about how we used to dance, while PBS is begging for dollars to support this great programming. I'd like at some point, if I ever get older, to say I had something to do with whatever this scene turns into and be proud about it. The past five years leave me only a little hope that this may come to pass.

Larry "I Wannabe a Legend" Rauson Larry, I'm quoting you not to argue with you but because I'm trying to make sure I stick to the original statement.

I was wondering if you or others could give some examples of what has pushed boundaries that you feel people in the scene are scared of.

When you say that there is too much reliance on technology, do you mean from the music production standpoint? Are you saying that the reliance on technology is masking (hmmm...or maybe amplifying) the lack of musicianship?

In what ways are people in the House scene more economically ignorant than others? [/QUOTE]Technology, imo, has really made the player obsolete... an example, the K2000 has an auto arpegiattor, why take piano lessons? I've said it before, and I'll say it again, peeps have got to learn to play, or this ain't going nowhere...Enuf for now I've got to do work.

Larry [/QUOTE]I would think to believe that when you were growing up new technology of those days were definately eye candy.

You can't tell me that if there were a machine like the one you mentioned, around before you started taking lessons that you would not be the least bit interested as to how it worked. [/QUOTE]Yo, Messiah, you're point could be well taken, if I was somewhat younger than I actually am, when I ewas coming up, the technology was a Rhodes, a B3, and synths like the Moog, and the Arp units were just coming out and were way out the reach of my parents from Nwk, NJ, and plus, my instrument was saxophone, so at that time I was much more intereted in reed and mouthpiece technology vs polyphonic synthesis...

Larry

Raven Fox

08-08-2003, 08:41 AM

nice comments Chris...
Hoping you and family are well.

my 2 cents: Music IS art, like it or not

And if more people would learn to appreciate it for that simple fact without giving it a label or discounting the method to the madness - then maybe we'd be free of all this absurd division.

Anyway - I did my entire first album "Fashionably Late" in Reason 2.0 and it got me a sweet deal with Sony Japan and Nintendo. I won't go into the details but what I can say it got me alot further than I would have ever imagined. Stylewise, you can call it whatever you want - 21 Flavor House, Techno, Trance, Techstep, bottom line - it's music - and music to me is ART.

As far as the scene goes - to keep in the realm of this topic - WHAT SCENE?

Thanks for the knowledge!

Raven

eileen

08-08-2003, 10:22 AM

wow, i totally disagree that all music is art.

it's the creative process and the heart and the passion that goes into it that makes music either:

art

-or-

a commodity.

if i took my computer and just randomly assembled tracks from pieces of other tracks and sold them, i don't care how many people bought those tracks or what the critics called them - i would not consider that to be art.

i think that in a way, that is kind of what part of the whole discussion is about, actually...

TAD

08-08-2003, 11:01 AM

i agree with Larry Rauson. learn an instrument or hire musicians. of course learning an instrument is one thing. possessing the gift is what will separate the virtuoso from the unexceptional.

jsd540

08-08-2003, 11:17 AM

Originally posted by RodneyRansom:
With no disrespect intended , I would like to add that it's perfectly o.k for the older heads in the scene, to school people on the true history
of this music. At the same time , this dosen't
give you the right to dog the younger cats that
might have just got in to the scene. . Hey Larry good post..... graemlins/cussing.gif I agree ... and would add...

In the 50's fats dominoe was rock and roll in the 60's the stones 70's led zepplin and so on. Every generation was allowed to define rock and roll in their own terms. Why should'nt we allow the same to occur with house ?

If we want this music to grow and prosper we must allow the new jacks to define it for themselves. They should be allowed to create their own zanz, garage and memories first. Only then will they be open to the history and seek it out.

jsd540

08-08-2003, 11:19 AM

Raven Fox

08-08-2003, 12:10 PM

Originally posted by eileen:
wow, i totally disagree that all music is art.

it's the creative process and the heart and the passion that goes into it that makes music either:

art

-or-

a commodity.

if i took my computer and just randomly assembled tracks from pieces of other tracks and sold them, i don't care how many people bought those tracks or what the critics called them - i would not consider that to be art.

i think that in a way, that is kind of what part of the whole discussion is about, actually... I think you are referring to sampling, remixing or re-editing - that would be interpretive creation - IMO, still art, using already established art medium.

Still art. Not sure what you mean by "commodity"
Please elaborate.

Nonetheless - the work I did is all original music production using computer based software. Simply just one of my artforms. I also do digital and conventional painting, sculpture, graphic art, among others. IF you really want to know more about me, check out my website.

Thank you for your intelligent viewpoint.

[ August 08, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: Raven Fox ]

eileen

08-08-2003, 06:13 PM

well what i said wasn't directed at you per se, i was talking about the effect of computers and software on the creative process -

the process vs. the product: this is key, in my opinion.

i think it's the process that determines whether music is art.

in other words, just because a product is music, doesn't mean it's art.

music can be just a product like a commodity, something off an assembly-line, or artifically constructed to a certain market or whatever, something bought and sold and even enjoyed my millions and it may have very little to do with art.

because i think what determines whether or not it's art is the process that made it. if it was made by creativity and inspiration and passion and spirit, then it's art.

so whatever tools you use, i don't think the tools are what determines whether it's art. could be computers, guitars, whatever.

BUT computers CAN have the effect of limiting a person's creative process and make it more difficult to be a true artist.

it can take away risk, and reduce the chance that unexpected things might happen, for example. and some software seems to encourage people to use preset patterns and sounds and formulas. so it can turn people making music into part-arrangers who aren't really *putting themselves out there.*

...not sure if i'm being clear or making sense...

i guess to make the comparison with fine art, i think when you look at a painting or sculpture, you find yourself asking *what is the artist saying*? right? because you're looking at the art as an expression to understand the artist's process and what the artist is trying to say. and i think the same is true with music.

like when you're talking about a song that was played live, and you say to someone 'check this part where the bass player says *boom ba-dap bap bap*!!

you're saying that the bass player *said* something really cool right there with his playing and musicianship - like he's *saying* something. doesn't matter so much whether you like that riff or not, or what kind of bass he used - the point is that he's expressing something, and that process of expressing yourself in the music medium makes it art.

so if you're really *saying* something when you're making your re-edit, or remix then it's art.

if not, then it's just music.

**by the way i don't mean *you* as in *hey you!* i mean like *a person*. smile.gif

[ August 08, 2003, 07:22 PM: Message edited by: eileen ]

rob brito

08-08-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by jsd540:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by GrantB:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by jay rags:
http://www.blackbookscafe.com/images/WMCsat032203-11.jpg Dayum, Whyteout musta been beating that shit! Look girl in the background is struggling to keep her titties on!

icon_rofl.gif [/QUOTE]graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif [/QUOTE]graemlins/rofl.gif

TAC

08-08-2003, 08:13 PM

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by julian_kelly:
Somebody post a few good new techno online mixes so I can get hip to whats hot. A recent Dan Curtin mix...

http://downlowmusic.org/Mp3s/dan%20curtin-interstellar%20groove%201_low.mp3

His latest 12" for Downlow, Distort Archive Desire, is a real return to form, too.

[/QUOTE]I've been listening to that mix you posted and there is some nice shit in there. Is there a playlist posted for this somewhere? Thanks. [/QUOTE]Julian, tracklisting is:

1. tres demented demented drums version planet-e
2. moodyman silence in the secret garden peacefrog
3. yotoko all creation remix delsin
4. rewerk you're so just just playhouse
5. titonton&john tejada freeky deaky residual
6. dan curtin in and out of space native
7. john tejada music for doubles (dj abstract mix) palette
8. losoul jam playhouse
9. rick wade i do believe funky chocolate
10. bear who? salud eterno camouflage
11. derrick carter where you at? classic
12. aztec mystic ascension UR
13. tres demented demented (or just crazy) planet-e
14. lenny white nocturne nemperor [/QUOTE]This mix just reinforces Larry's point. This mix is full of blantantly computer driven music. If any of you sit there, each of you could easily program some shit like this. I listen to the mix all the way through for that matter. However, in all honesty, in 5 years you will not reach in to your crates for ANYTHING in this mix.

Sorry, ya'll gonna have to come better for music of the future. This is quirky for quirky's sake. The songs on this sound like computer geek music with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Then there's this head banging music that ya'll are raving about... WTF, come better than this man... . Mind you, its dope, but I would not string it all at once cause it will bore the mess out ya. This is good to use as a break on a song.

Ya'll people are f*cking out of you minds, crazy!!!

90 percent of you need to get off the f*cking box, and I am going to start pointing you people out and NAMING names.

Dan Curtin get the **** out of here with this BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

Yea, I said it... . WHAT A BULLSHIT MIX!

Just remind me to stear clear of any parties that this person does.

Peace
TAC

TAD

08-08-2003, 10:19 PM

Originally posted by TAC:
This is good to use as a break on a song.

Peace
TAC thanks for saying this TAC. most of these tracks are fillers, bridges between songs to create a certain mood. they have their place, but certainly not a whole nights worth. it's boring.

TAC

08-08-2003, 11:33 PM

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TAC:
This is good to use as a break on a song.

Peace
TAC thanks for saying this TAC. most of these tracks are fillers, bridges between songs to create a certain mood. they have their place, but certainly not a whole nights worth. it's boring. [/QUOTE]Man someone has to have the courage to say it. Plenty times, I would walk in a store and leave something on the shelves because it was nothing more than what I coul punch up on a drum machine myself. A lot of these people playing music need to take that attitude too. This way, we would not have so much propagation of absolute drivel that is people are trying to pass of as quality music.

Back to listening to your mix!!

Peace
TAC

[ August 09, 2003, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: TAC ]

TAD

08-09-2003, 03:19 AM

Originally posted by TAC:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TAC:
This is good to use as a break on a song.

Peace
TAC thanks for saying this TAC. most of these tracks are fillers, bridges between songs to create a certain mood. they have their place, but certainly not a whole nights worth. it's boring. [/QUOTE]Man someone has to have the courage to say it. Plenty times, I would walk in a store and leave something on the shelves because it was nothing more than what I coul punch up on a drum machine myself. A lot of these people playing music need to take that attitude too. This way, we would not have so much propagation of absolute drivel that is people are trying to pass of as quality music.

Back to listening to your mix!!

Peace
TAC [/QUOTE]what's sad is that despite the knowledge & experience the older folks have, we're considered relics & not "with it" when in fact we're still here partying when most young clubbers of a particualr generation have moved on.

with knowledge comes wisdom, but when it comes to dance music everybody's an expert because it's "so subjective." i thought that with anything that requires a vast amount of knowledge to become proficient, years of meditation on the subject are required to reach a level of understanding.

i can give someone a manual on how to fly a plane. if that person reads the manual once, twice even 10 times, will they be able to perform the necessary maneuvers to fly it? impossible. it takes years of flight simulation & then more hands on training under the supervition of an experienced pilot.

i've been listening to music for over 40 years & i still have not reached the level of understanding i am aiming for. it's a never ending process.

i also feel the constant negativity towards certain trailblazers by overzealous neophytes, permits young readers to develop unnatural feelings that form the basis of a comraderie of sorts. their minds become closed before they have a chance to open simply because of a type of subiminal suggestion. music is a form of meditation. there is no room for any type of vice within this framework. rule one of the state of trance. just let it go.......let
it take complete control!!

ok off to bed now. i'm rambling on....

Monny JcIntosh

08-09-2003, 05:43 AM

Originally posted by TAC:

This mix just reinforces Larry's point. This mix is full of blantantly computer driven music. If any of you sit there, each of you could easily program some shit like this. I listen to the mix all the way through for that matter. However, in all honesty, in 5 years you will not reach in to your crates for ANYTHING in this mix.

Sorry, ya'll gonna have to come better for music of the future. This is quirky for quirky's sake. The songs on this sound like computer geek music with no redeeming qualities whatsoever. Then there's this head banging music that ya'll are raving about... WTF, come better than this man... . Mind you, its dope, but I would not string it all at once cause it will bore the mess out ya. This is good to use as a break on a song.

Ya'll people are f*cking out of you minds, crazy!!!

90 percent of you need to get off the f*cking box, and I am going to start pointing you people out and NAMING names.

Dan Curtin get the **** out of here with this BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

Yea, I said it... . WHAT A BULLSHIT MIX!

Just remind me to stear clear of any parties that this person does.

Peace
TAC I didn't post it as any answer to an issue of music for the future. Julian Kelly asked if anyone knew of a mix of contemporary techno and this one had been getting a bit of attention on another board. I agree with the bulk of your criticisms, and I leave most techno in the shop for similar over quirky, nerdiness. I think I only own two records on that Dan Curtin mix, and I wouldn't want any of the rest. Saying that, I have a similar hit rate at best with almost every mix posted here, or your own nu grooves reviews. The rest I couldn't give a flying one about. There are techno gems to be found if you look amongst the mountains of dross. Same goes for house.

And I still suggest people check out Dan Curtin's single on Downlow. smile.gif

[ August 09, 2003, 06:46 AM: Message edited by: Jonny McIntosh ]

imported_Gman

08-09-2003, 07:21 AM

Originally posted by TAC:
..Ya'll people are f*cking out of you minds, crazy!!!

90 percent of you need to get off the f*cking box, and I am going to start pointing you people out and NAMING names.

Dan Curtin get the **** out of here with this BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

Yea, I said it... . WHAT A BULLSHIT MIX!

Just remind me to stear clear of any parties that this person does.

Peace
TAC Tac, don't hold back tell us how you really feel icon_rofl.gif Anyways does someone have another mix I can listen to. I was only feeling a couple of songs toward the end.

-G

08-09-2003, 07:42 AM

I'd agree with you Cosmic Twin, I was trying not to enter this thread and only did when I just seen that Gman posted to it, but I disagree a lil too.

With knowledge does not necessarily come wisdom. As you pointed out with your analogy of the airplane, but its the first achievement toward wisdom.

I dont know about the "scene", I once read where Larry Heard was asked that question and said that "there was no scene" (this was an old interview).

Amongst the differing personalities, eeeeeeh mine included, anything can be achieved, but to what end? For folly......then I quit, for a higher purpose like bringing people together so they can network and help others, then I am all for it.....when positivity rips thru the "scene", coupled with a goal that can aid people, including ourselves.....look tha-fugk-out....

Seemingly its more of a persoanl battle, like with everything.

"If I want the world to bend, for the better, than I first must be certain that I can bend"...

That may not help anyone..... graemlins/bolt.gif

Chris Conrad

08-09-2003, 08:34 AM

ah...now it gets interesting. i was waiting for a mixed bag of reactions on that dan curtin mix.

1)it was said that you found the mix boring, simple, and the music the same...easy programming anyone can do...well then, can this style not be compared to early house music? what about all thoe early house tracks, and acid and techno early on? were they not simple machine music? i remember the critics back then saying the same things...shall we put up sound clips of early house classics and compare them side by side to some of the newer stuff on this mix? by the way, i'm not attacking your opinion...i'll get to mine in a moment...

2)it was said you could not take a whole night of this...valid point...BUT...is it any different, then, say, listening to a whole night of MAW, Blaze, Spinna, Joe Clausell and everyone else in that 'genre' of 'deeeeepppp, soulful house' (I use these names NOT to diss, but as an example of the names i see repeated obsessively on this board, and who i keep being told and 'schooled' are the definiton of 'deeeppp, soulful house'...i happen to like much of these people's music in a musical sense, just not in a dancefloor sense...)

3)now, what if you could go out and party and hear a VARIETY of 'house' music...say, some of the things played on the dan curtin mix, some of the stuff i mentioned in #2 people obsess over, and the myriad of other genres and subgenres of house and god knows whatever kind of music, maybe even hip hop??? oh wait a minute...i keep being told that's what larry levan used to do at the gareg, that's what tony humphries used to do at zanzibar and on the radio...sh*t, i forgot...oh wait a minute, that's how NYC used to be, ten years ago...wait a minute, taht's what i've been trying to do at various gigs and what not, but i keep getting schooled by the deep house elite that what i'm playing is bad, the same ones who school me about the variety of the past!!! so what the f*ck is the problem!!!???

4)johny mcintosh brough up a good point, how the same things can be said about many of the mixes and and playlists on this board. i have to agree, the same criticisms can be made. and why is it people often list the SAME records, by the SAME producers, day in and day out? some of the people,by the way are the ones preachign variety, but list the same records all the time, by the same people...

before anyone jumps all over that i defended a 'techno' mix or like boring sh*t...i had mixed reactions myself. i like some of the records on there, and have one or two of them. there's some interesting music on there that should be played amongs other house, and yes, some boring and simple music as well. could i take a whole night of it? probably not...i like someone who can incorporate this and other styles into their playing style. but, there are people who like this stuff, and can take a whole night of it, just like 'deeeppp, soulful house' people can take a whole night of that stuff...but, again, see point #3...

by the way,and this has nothign to do with my points above... the following bugs me out the most...there are people on this and other boards, who a year or two ago were dissing this whole 'deep soulful house' genre and dissing certain dj's and parties who play that, but now are key preachers of this genre and key defenders of certain parties and you'd swear they never owned any other kind of record...please observe and compare certian key people's posts regarding music, to, say, their posts and playlists a year or two ago...

imported_Gman

08-09-2003, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
... There are techno gems to be found if you look amongst the mountains of dross. Same goes for house....

I really agree with this statment and would add same goes for R&B,Hip\Hop..etc

Ronnie Ron

08-09-2003, 10:27 AM

There are 8 pages to this thread , can someone give me the link to this mix i really dont want to scan all eight pages for this mix. i would like to take a listen.

R-R

TAD

08-09-2003, 10:31 AM

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:

ah...now it gets interesting. i was waiting for a mixed bag of reactions on that dan curtin mix.

1)it was said that you found the mix boring, simple, and the music the same...easy programming anyone can do...well then, can this style not be compared to early house music? what about all thoe early house tracks, and acid and techno early on? were they not simple machine music? i remember the critics back then saying the same things...shall we put up sound clips of early house classics and compare them side by side to some of the newer stuff on this mix? by the way, i'm not attacking your opinion...i'll get to mine in a moment... you’re overanalyzing what I wrote. There were droves of crap from the early house years. I know. I distributed it for 5 years. I still have a ton of that stuff. They have always been imo, fillers.

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:

2)it was said you could not take a whole night of this...valid point...BUT...is it any different, then, say, listening to a whole night of MAW, Blaze, Spinna, Joe Clausell and everyone else in that 'genre' of 'deeeeepppp, soulful house' (I use these names NOT to diss, but as an example of the names i see repeated obsessively on this board, and who i keep being told and 'schooled' are the definition of 'deeeppp, soulful house'...i happen to like much of these people's music in a musical sense, just not in a dancefloor sense...) actually you could get a lot more variety out of the 4 names you listed above. No comparison. i agree that they serve a dual purpose & can provide an easy listening platform to those that appreciate great musicianship. i don't understand your use of the word obsessive.

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:

3)now, what if you could go out and party and hear a VARIETY of 'house' music...say, some of the things played on the dan curtin mix, some of the stuff i mentioned in #2 people obsess over, and the myriad of other genres and subgenres of house and god knows whatever kind of music, maybe even hip hop??? oh wait a minute...i keep being told that's what larry levan used to do at the gareg, that's what tony humphries used to do at zanzibar and on the radio...sh*t, i forgot...oh wait a minute, that's how NYC used to be, ten years ago...wait a minute, taht's what i've been trying to do at various gigs and what not, but i keep getting schooled by the deep house elite that what i'm playing is bad, the same ones who school me about the variety of the past!!! so what the f*ck is the problem!!!??? Slow down man. You’re right. Variety is the spice of life. But again I think you’re missing the point. When you say variety you cannot place a blaze vocal track with multiple chord changes, solos, the musical attributes that you mention above to a simple track that for all intents & purposes should be used to bridge songs to provide a theme. It`s about context.

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:

4)johny mcintosh brough up a good point, how the same things can be said about many of the mixes and and playlists on this board. i have to agree, the same criticisms can be made. and why is it people often list the SAME records, by the SAME producers, day in and day out? some of the people,by the way are the ones preachign variety, but list the same records all the time, by the same people... Well for one, they`re great records, classics that will stand the test of time over most fillers. There has to be a common thread otherwise the music suffers. If everybody is playing different sh*t, how can the music get the right exposure? It becomes self defeating.

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:

before anyone jumps all over that i defended a 'techno' mix or like boring sh*t...i had mixed reactions myself. i like some of the records on there, and have one or two of them. there's some interesting music on there that should be played amongs other house, and yes, some boring and simple music as well. could i take a whole night of it? probably not...i like someone who can incorporate this and other styles into their playing style. but, there are people who like this stuff, and can take a whole night of it, just like 'deeeppp, soulful house' people can take a whole night of that stuff...but, again, see point #3... right, and the people that can take a whole night of techno probably won’t be in this scene in another 5 years, however the opposite rings true for so called soulful heads as can be witnessed by Mr. David Mancuso’s Loft Parties still going strong after 33 years.

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:

by the way,and this has nothign to do with my points above... the following bugs me out the most...there are people on this and other boards, who a year or two ago were dissing this whole 'deep soulful house' genre and dissing certain dj's and parties who play that, but now are key preachers of this genre and key defenders of certain parties and you'd swear they never owned any other kind of record...please observe and compare certian key people's posts regarding music, to, say, their posts and playlists a year or two ago... I can`t comment too much on this last point. I certainly am not one of them, but if they saw the light, more power to ‘em!!! I don’t see your point here. People change. What’s the big deal? Of course there are those that look for acceptance but who really cares?

TAD

08-09-2003, 10:42 AM

Originally posted by RonnieRon:
There are 8 pages to this thread , can someone give me the link to this mix i really dont want to scan all eight pages for this mix. i would like to take a listen.

R-R to prove what? that someone can put together a mix of fillers? the playlist is out of context within a deep house framework. these tracks would work well & receive better attention if peppered with more vocal oriented material.

TAD

08-09-2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by Hk:
but I disagree a lil too.

With knowledge does not necessarily come wisdom. As you pointed out with your analogy of the airplane, but its the first achievement toward wisdom.you're stating the obvious. my comment wasn't meant to be a blanket statement.

Ronnie Ron

08-09-2003, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by RonnieRon:
There are 8 pages to this thread , can someone give me the link to this mix i really dont want to scan all eight pages for this mix. i would like to take a listen.

R-R to prove what? that someone can put together a mix of fillers? the playlist is out of context within a deep house framework. these tracks would work well & receive better attention if peppered with more vocal oriented material. [/QUOTE]Psychic Twin graemlins/nono.gif you know what im thinking? tell me what im thinking now... AR15firing.gif AR15firing.gif

R-R

TAD

08-09-2003, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by RonnieRon:
Psychic Twin graemlins/nono.gif you know what im thinking? tell me what im thinking now... AR15firing.gif AR15firing.gif

R-R let me guess, this? graemlins/spanka.gif or maybe this? http://deephousepage.com/smilies/slap.gif
ok how about a graemlins/bighug.gif a graemlins/beerchug.gif on me & we're straight k?

TAC

08-09-2003, 01:20 PM

Originally posted by Gman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by TAC:
..Ya'll people are f*cking out of you minds, crazy!!!

90 percent of you need to get off the f*cking box, and I am going to start pointing you people out and NAMING names.

Dan Curtin get the **** out of here with this BULLSHIT!!!!!!!

Yea, I said it... . WHAT A BULLSHIT MIX!

Just remind me to stear clear of any parties that this person does.

Peace
TAC Tac, don't hold back tell us how you really feel icon_rofl.gif Anyways does someone have another mix I can listen to. I was only feeling a couple of songs toward the end.

-G [/QUOTE]Sorry, man. I know better than to drink and try to analyze crap on-line!!!

Peace
TAC

RON CARROLL

08-09-2003, 01:46 PM

Well said Larry, and I will put in my effort to help in giving "House" a new , yet live Image.

1st: Songs that only promotes the Artist.
2nd: Video's that are eye catching, and live.
3rd: Clothing that will upgrade our Image.

and much more. We are already working on it.

EVERYONE !! , Stop letting your peers hold you back from exploring new dimentions in our music. Don't be afraid to change your style, to make the music HOT to the younger generation, because we need there support to keep going.

Chicago, it began here, let's do it again. TOGETHER graemlins/OLA.gif

Querck

08-09-2003, 02:46 PM

I didn't listen to the Dan Curtin mix, but from the tracklisting, it looks pretty interesting, and some of those songs are very nice.

As much as I love deep house, to tell you the truth, I would much rather listen to this kind of a mix, than another MAW, Blaze, Kerri-filled mixes.
That's the point here- we need more variety in house music. No one is saying we should listen to techno all night, but we have to incorporate various forms of dance music, as long as they are groovy and funky.

And techno-haters should not judge current techno just based on this mix. Anybody know of other downloadable mixes? I know plenty on Groovetech. Specifically, I would like to find some recent Dan Bell and Richie Hawtin mixes.

Ron la Rock

08-09-2003, 06:12 PM

djmarbll

08-09-2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by JL:
dissing techno when you say you love deep house is downright ignorant. You must not know what "deep house" is. "Deep House" had a different meaning in the 80s and early 90's than it does now. But one thing deephouse is still identified with is soulful. Techno has no soul. Point blank bottom line.

djmarbll

08-09-2003, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by JL:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by St Magus the Reviled:
"hey man, i hate techno"

next day

"yo, you got that 'nights of the jajuar' track?.. timmy and llv played it and it is soooooo deep!" bwahahahaha, totally man. god forbid they find out about "altered states" at the shelter too, they'd have 2 techno records in their crates. [/QUOTE]I think you all are talking about records that were considered house tracks before they were considered techno. I don't even know where the term "techno" came from. But if you listen to B96 in Chicago after 11 pm on Fridays and Saturdays, and have them define that genre as techno, then you'll understand why I dislike it so much.

Ron la Rock

08-09-2003, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
dissing techno when you say you love deep house is downright ignorant. You must not know what "deep house" is. "Deep House" had a different meaning in the 80s and early 90's than it does now. But one thing deephouse is still identified with is soulful. Techno has no soul. Point blank bottom line. [/QUOTE]Disagreed
:rolleyes:

djmarbll

08-09-2003, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by Eargasm:

House, like pretty much every other form of music, seems to be its best in the underground form. That has been my experience. I don't think house will ever be a viable mainstream music. The reason why I feel this way are simple. HOUSE IS ABOUT THE MUSIC. Other forms of music, especially in mainstream form, are about IMAGE.

If Osunlade, MAW, Dj Gregory or any other producer put out a track about their car,watch, house, bitches or how much ****ing money they got I would be done with them. I wouldn't care how banging it is, it ain't for me. But some people eat this shit up, look at hip hop.
This is so true. People don't understand that house will never be mainstream because it's not supposed to be, especially nowadays in America's image-driven society. I'd rather house stay underground so it can stay creative and and progressive. House is more progressive to me than ANY other musical genre right now. The stuff Shannon Harris, GU, Moodyman, MAW, Osunlade, Peven Everett, and many others are doing is way more progressive than what any other cats are doing in any musical genre.
Look at hip-hop (destroying itself save the cats that stay underground and keep the genre fresh)), jazz, (turning into syrupy lounge music save a few cats that push the envelope such as Christian McBride, Chick Corea, Yellowjackets, etc.), rock (always re-invents itself when it gets boring, ie. Bruce Springsteen, Guns-and-Roses, Nirvana), pop (goes without saying) r&b (same as pop).

Another problem with this scene is we have more people complaining about what's wrong with it than people who are taking it to the next level.

djmarbll

08-09-2003, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Gman:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
... There are techno gems to be found if you look amongst the mountains of dross. Same goes for house....

I really agree with this statment and would add same goes for R&B,Hip\Hop..etc [/QUOTE]I think this is true for any genre of music. And all genres go throught their "golden age" too. Rock (50s and 60s), R&B (60s and 70s), Hip-hop (80s), House (80s).

djmarbll

08-09-2003, 09:12 PM

I listened to Dan Curtin's mix and it just doesn't move me. The tempo is faster than what I'm used to hearing and there's not too much melody involved. I could the influence of classic house within some of the samples though. But if the mix is getting attention on another website then it's moving somebody and Dan Curtin is doing his job. I guess that's what it really boils down too.

djmarbll

08-09-2003, 09:12 PM

Originally posted by djmarbll:
I listened to Dan Curtin's mix and it just doesn't move me. The tempo is faster than what I'm used to hearing and there's not too much melody involved. I could hear the influence of classic house within some of the samples though. But if the mix is getting attention on another website then it's moving somebody and Dan Curtin is doing his job. I guess that's what it really boils down too.

prussell

08-09-2003, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by dannyboy:
As much as I love deep house, to tell you the truth, I would much rather listen to this kind of a mix, than another MAW, Blaze, Kerri-filled mixes. That's the point here- we need more variety in house music. Specifically, I would like to find some recent Dan Bell and Richie Hawtin mixes. I'm not feelin Rich too much these days; alot of overly-mechanical pandering, if you ask me...
Dan Bell, however----that man is on a tear!!
His set at Movement was crazy. So fresh & new, so mysterious....always a pleasure.

For the record---
I do believe alot of "deep house" has backed itself into a corner in the last couple years. Must every 'song' have vocals & congas? What happened to more experimental TRACKS?

Also for the record, my personal tastes concerning the aforementioned "deep house" main players:
*Kerri: I find about 1 record a year that really moves me. I am aware, however, that I have not heard nearly everything he's done in the past 2 yrs.
*Osunlade: picked up GotSoul 2.5---love it. Don't necessarily feel everything.
*MAW: Same as Kerri. I'm from the school of Ray Charles' "I'll Be There" rmx, & "The Bounce".
*Blaze: not feelin that last album (say what you will). "If You Should Need a Friend" & "Love Comes Around" are 2 of my faves.
*GU: anyone remember "The Unborn"? Gimme that or the 1st Balance 12" anyday. Disclaimer: I did buy "Look Inside".

Who do I usually feel with some consistency?
Theo/Malik/KDJ, Amp Fiddler, Carl Craig, Larry Heard. I also always try to give "non-deephouse" music a chance, as you never know what you're going to find.
**Point: I think people should learn to discriminate & weed through the filler, no matter what the genre (be it house, techno, or polka). Drop the deaf alliances to certain 'artists' and expand their horizons.

Sorry for the long post.

prussell

08-09-2003, 11:02 PM

prussell

08-09-2003, 11:02 PM

Yeah, Page 9!! graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

DJ Hutch

08-10-2003, 11:48 AM

julian_kelly

08-10-2003, 07:07 PM

Interesting you make these comments about jazz. Me and some cats were discussing straight ahead vs fusion... 'popular jazz' vs 'traditional jazz' the other night.

Acutally alot of old heads and 'purists' in the scene are really pissed at Christian McBride and Joshua Redman for 'abandoning' straight ahead material. I remembering seeing a live concert with Josh Redman, Brian Blade and Christian McBride playing the electric bass...their music was really funk...no twinges of straight ahead jazz..basically original compositions. Josh was running around stage doing 'simple licks' and was more of a showman than a musician in my eyes. Christian McBride was jumping up and down on the 1 and grinning as he plucked the bass like Larry Graham. As I was watching this show, I was thinking 'a purist would really hate this set and hate these guys for doing this' ... but I enjoyed it...it wasnt groundbreaking in my eyes...but I was good.

Maybe a similar analogy would be a house head asking why Tony H played 'hard' in a set or why MAW would put out music like 'Tranz.' Actually, I remeber reading some old Downbeats from the '80s and many critics hated the Yellow Jackets. Also alot of 'purists' back in the day hated Chick for playing synthesizers...the cry was "He has skills, but why doesnt he play a doggone piano"

I guess that point that Im tryin to make is that the debate in house is similar to the debate of whats going on in jazz in a sense. In a sense, 'pushing the envelope' is in the eye of the beholder.

julian kelly

Originally posted by djmarbll:
.......Look at hip-hop (destroying itself save the cats that stay underground and keep the genre fresh)), jazz, (turning into syrupy lounge music save a few cats that push the envelope such as Christian McBride, Chick Corea, Yellowjackets, etc....

djmarbll

08-10-2003, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by julian_kelly:
Interesting you make these comments about jazz. Me and some cats were discussing straight ahead vs fusion... 'popular jazz' vs 'traditional jazz' the other night.

Acutally alot of old heads and 'purists' in the scene are really pissed at Christian McBride and Joshua Redman for 'abandoning' straight ahead material. I remembering seeing a live concert with Josh Redman, Brian Blade and Christian McBride playing the electric bass...their music was really funk...no twinges of straight ahead jazz..basically original compositions. Josh was running around stage doing 'simple licks' and was more of a showman than a musician in my eyes. Christian McBride was jumping up and down on the 1 and grinning as he plucked the bass like Larry Graham. As I was watching this show, I was thinking 'a purist would really hate this set and hate these guys for doing this' ... but I enjoyed it...it wasnt groundbreaking in my eyes...but I was good.

Maybe a similar analogy would be a house head asking why Tony H played 'hard' in a set or why MAW would put out music like 'Tranz.' Actually, I remeber reading some old Downbeats from the '80s and many critics hated the Yellow Jackets. Also alot of 'purists' back in the day hated Chick for playing synthesizers...the cry was "He has skills, but why doesnt he play a doggone piano"

I guess that point that Im tryin to make is that the debate in house is similar to the debate of whats going on in jazz in a sense. In a sense, 'pushing the envelope' is in the eye of the beholder.

julian kelly

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
.......Look at hip-hop (destroying itself save the cats that stay underground and keep the genre fresh)), jazz, (turning into syrupy lounge music save a few cats that push the envelope such as Christian McBride, Chick Corea, Yellowjackets, etc....[/QUOTE]You're right Julian. I mentioned Chick, Mcbride, and the Yellowjackets specifically for the reasons you gave. These artists were often considered selling their music out when they switched to electric instruments (especially Chick Corea and Herbie Hancock). Miles Davis was thought of in the same way, but Miles basically said "f*ck you" to whoever didn't like what he was progressing towards after 1970 and beyond. Miles Davis, Chick Corea, Yellowjackets, Herbie Hancock, and even Christian McBride (to a lesser extent) have made tremendous marks on the music industry and jazz in particular because they pushed the envelope in the face of criticism. There are artists doing this in house too and we'll understand their impact probably years down the road.

djmarbll

08-10-2003, 07:30 PM

Originally posted by prussell:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JL:
dissing techno when you say you love deep house is downright ignorant. You must not know what "deep house" is. "Deep House" had a different meaning in the 80s and early 90's than it does now. But one thing deephouse is still identified with is soulful. Techno has no soul. Point blank bottom line. [/QUOTE]Ever listen to Jeff Mills - "The Purpose Maker"?
Robert Hood - "Nighttime World"? Any of Carl Craig's stuff? Any of these might skew your "bottom line" a bit (with all due respect). [/QUOTE]I haven't heard the tunes you mentioned, but as far as all the techno I've ever heard, including Dan Curtin's mix, it's still devoid of anything that's soulful or funky. It's like minimalized sped up house music. And house doesn't always have to be soulful vocals and percussion breakdowns. Some of my favorite house records of all time are Lil Louis and DJ RUSH tracks with very little or no vocals, but the tracks are still funky and not thin-sounding.

C hristian

08-10-2003, 09:01 PM

I don't know why I put myself through reading 9 pages of this *****, but you know, whatever. I chose to do it.

Chris' fustrations as a DJ trying to understand the limitations and close-mindedness of other around, I can completely identify with. All these labels, all these subdivisions, it's ALL marketing people! It's ALL MARKETING! Granted, there is then a certain history of experience, of clubbing at certain spots back in the day, and what they played there. But you know what? I'm willing to bet that even some of the great DJs as well as the general public had their own set limitations, as well. we all do, and it's part of our job as a DJ of today, to work people out of that. To lead people, in a way that they accept, to total open-mindedness about what is passing through their ears. I think someone pointed out that all this music is basically created with the same equipment. We are quibbling over different presets of the sound bank. different synth vibrations. the relative presence or absence of Bass and Treble.
Small, when you step back and look at it, but real.

All this **** is not how great musicians think; you all are living in another world. I can GUARRANTEE (sp?) you. Musicians know what's good and what's bad music and that's simply how it is defined. In other words, what connects with them emotionally and/or intellectually, and what doesn't. Maybe a general genre name, but that's only after someone else usually puts you in a box like that. that's it! It's all music! All these labels and divisions and crap is all a product of non-musicians, who can't seem to fully grasp the language of music. In this world we live in , the written word is king. So "critics" have got to write about music, and we do here on the board every day. So we have got to come up with labels and put musicians into little easily-catagorical boxes in our mind. We've got to digitize the truth, and let me tell you something, the TRUTH is analogue! That's why we play records! (I'm getting off the subject here.)

The point is, as a musican, it's really hard sometimes to read a lot of the crap that people put down here as "education" . I already got my education in music! You aren't talking to me about chord changes, harmonies, specific timberal sonorities and the memories/emotions they evoke, melodic structure, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. What is truly educational are the mixes themselves. they speak for themselves. and to know which tracks were popular back in the day, to a certain extent. What you are telling me is how these songs were marketed.

Maybe I'm sounding a little to harsh/blunt here. I probably am sounding more harsh than I really mean to. But you gotta understand that it is the critics job to put musicians in a box with the labels they come up with. It's the muscian's job to get out of that box, or at least widen it. That's what we do, all the time.

But I'm sure no opinions have changed merely from reading my post. You all like what you like and don't like what you don't like, as do I , and it is my job as the DJ to size up where you all are at, where I am at, and to take the lead into moving along a comfortable musical path towards that spot in heaven we call COMPLETE OPEN-MINDEDNESS!

But if we solved that in a day, it would mean we countered the effects of racism, sexism, classism, and every other trick of the political and socio-economic trade. And then how would we fill our days after that?

If there is one thing I learned in music school, it's this : Music is culture, and culture is political.

man, where's the spell-check?

[ August 10, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: C hristian ]

shannoneileen

08-11-2003, 05:06 PM

I probably shouldn't respond and jack this topic up again, but I'm new to posting to this board... and yes, I read all the responses...

I'm not technically inclined, nor do I know many of the artist out today (even though I've written down several, from this topic, to check out... thanks!)

My feeling is, just from a person who enjoys music and loves to dance, is that if I feel no SOUL, I can't be moved.

The underground that suppossedly 'created' this type of music was Black & Gay, and they had SOUL.

The 4 on the floor sounds like a drumbeat and that to me is African. That makes me think of Black church, and even though I'm not Christian, that moves me... the soul of the music moves me... not the technicality... (I LOVE Gabriel by Roy Davis Jr. !!!!!!)

House music is tribal, erotic, soulful and reassures me in my quest to be at peace with what will eventually come (death)... the heartbeat does that... the beat, the soul, the pain, the longing... the joy...

There is rare techo that has that soul to me... the Nightcrawlers (is that techno?) does that... or is that old school, deep house? I don't know, but the techno that I have heard lacks soul... even Nirvana had soul, as a grunge band, ya know?

A feeling to da flow... if you know what I mean... I'm rambling... it's hard to explain... I hope y'all feel me tho...

Shannon_Shawan graemlins/cheering.gif

djmarbll

08-11-2003, 06:41 PM

I feel ya 100%. Soul doesn't have to be just black-oriented music. To me, Hall & Oates, Doobie Bros., Beatles, Kansas, The Who, The Doors, Janis Joplin, and especially Led Zeppelin were all very soulful, just like many non-black artists of today (Nirvana, Jamiroquai, Nikka Costa, Alanis Morrisette, Eminem, etc.). I feel soul from all the artists I just mentioned and techno just deosn't give me the same feeling of soul at all.

Querck

08-11-2003, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by djmarbll:
I feel ya 100%. Soul doesn't have to be just black-oriented music. To me, Hall & Oates, Doobie Bros., Beatles, Kansas, The Who, The Doors, Janis Joplin, and especially Led Zeppelin were all very soulful, just like many non-black artists of today (Nirvana, Jamiroquai, Nikka Costa, Alanis Morrisette, Eminem, etc.). I feel soul from all the artists I just mentioned and techno just deosn't give me the same feeling of soul at all. I just can't believe it. Not a single techno track is soulful to you? How about Knights of the Jaguar, or Strings of Life? Those are classics, but there are hundreds of tracks that are just as soulful. Maybe you have to expand your defenition of soulful? I guess techno is a little more agressive than the "soul" you are referring to, but there is soul in there too--it's just presented a little differently.

C hristian

08-12-2003, 09:46 AM

i heard an early jersey mix this past weekend. 2 hours of it. boring. a few tracks in there were pretty good. but basically, a drum machine on auto pilot, which, i can see, might have beeen exciting back in the day, b/c of the setting and the deconstructed, undergroundedness of it all, the do-it-yourself bed room aspect. that would excite me, and has in the past. but the "music" doesn't hold up by today's standards. although, a track here and there, for simplicity's sake, i can see.

mhd

08-12-2003, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by C hristian:
I don't know why I put myself through reading 9 pages of this *****, but you know, whatever. I chose to do it.

Chris' fustrations as a DJ trying to understand the limitations and close-mindedness of other around, I can completely identify with. All these labels, all these subdivisions, it's ALL marketing people! It's ALL MARKETING! Granted, there is then a certain history of experience, of clubbing at certain spots back in the day, and what they played there. But you know what? I'm willing to bet that even some of the great DJs as well as the general public had their own set limitations, as well. we all do, and it's part of our job as a DJ of today, to work people out of that. To lead people, in a way that they accept, to total open-mindedness about what is passing through their ears. I think someone pointed out that all this music is basically created with the same equipment. We are quibbling over different presets of the sound bank. different synth vibrations. the relative presence or absence of Bass and Treble.
Small, when you step back and look at it, but real.

All this **** is not how great musicians think; you all are living in another world. I can GUARRANTEE (sp?) you. Musicians know what's good and what's bad music and that's simply how it is defined. In other words, what connects with them emotionally and/or intellectually, and what doesn't. Maybe a general genre name, but that's only after someone else usually puts you in a box like that. that's it! It's all music! All these labels and divisions and crap is all a product of non-musicians, who can't seem to fully grasp the language of music. In this world we live in , the written word is king. So "critics" have got to write about music, and we do here on the board every day. So we have got to come up with labels and put musicians into little easily-catagorical boxes in our mind. We've got to digitize the truth, and let me tell you something, the TRUTH is analogue! That's why we play records! (I'm getting off the subject here.)

The point is, as a musican, it's really hard sometimes to read a lot of the crap that people put down here as "education" . I already got my education in music! You aren't talking to me about chord changes, harmonies, specific timberal sonorities and the memories/emotions they evoke, melodic structure, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. What is truly educational are the mixes themselves. they speak for themselves. and to know which tracks were popular back in the day, to a certain extent. What you are telling me is how these songs were marketed.

Maybe I'm sounding a little to harsh/blunt here. I probably am sounding more harsh than I really mean to. But you gotta understand that it is the critics job to put musicians in a box with the labels they come up with. It's the muscian's job to get out of that box, or at least widen it. That's what we do, all the time.

But I'm sure no opinions have changed merely from reading my post. You all like what you like and don't like what you don't like, as do I , and it is my job as the DJ to size up where you all are at, where I am at, and to take the lead into moving along a comfortable musical path towards that spot in heaven we call COMPLETE OPEN-MINDEDNESS!

But if we solved that in a day, it would mean we countered the effects of racism, sexism, classism, and every other trick of the political and socio-economic trade. And then how would we fill our days after that?

If there is one thing I learned in music school, it's this : Music is culture, and culture is political.

man, where's the spell-check? tight post

Basecore Boy

08-12-2003, 11:05 AM

Dance music, yet we dis.

I really don't think people really want this music to grow. Just them growing.

Suck your own _____.

What ever makes people dance.

Ronnie Ron

08-12-2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by C hristian:
i heard an early jersey mix this past weekend. 2 hours of it. boring. a few tracks in there were pretty good. but basically, a drum machine on auto pilot, which, i can see, might have beeen exciting back in the day, b/c of the setting and the deconstructed, undergroundedness of it all, the do-it-yourself bed room aspect. that would excite me, and has in the past. but the "music" doesn't hold up by today's standards. although, a track here and there, for simplicity's sake, i can see. Come on Man get in touch with reality. I have heard bad mixes from people all over the world, where you comin with this Jersey Boring Bullshit. Its people like you that we dont need around. Why dont you take that nonesense some place else, You dont make sense and you sound very uneducated about the scene. And since you seem to be such an authority on the music are you a DJ? if so put up a few links on some of the music you have mixed so it can be critiqued.

R-R

[ August 12, 2003, 02:41 PM: Message edited by: RonnieRon ]

C hristian

08-12-2003, 01:42 PM

you are right RR, I concede. You got me.

darrow

08-12-2003, 01:47 PM

GROOVE VICTIM

08-12-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by julian_kelly:

Maybe a similar analogy would be a house head asking why Tony H played 'hard' in a set or why MAW would put out music like 'Tranz.' Actually, I remeber reading some old Downbeats from the '80s and many critics hated the Yellow Jackets. Also alot of 'purists' back in the day hated Chick for playing synthesizers...the cry was "He has skills, but why doesnt he play a doggone piano"

julian kelly

This is the difference. Herbie and Chick within there respective bands were playing something that no one thought would "Gel". The same goes for Miles Davis in the 60s. Also you have the "Black Power" movement that IMO has had a huge impact on the Jazz/Fusion scene of the 60s and 70s. If you listen to stuff from Return to Forever, and compare it to the Head Hunters, you will notice who went towards a Hard Rock approach, and who went towards the Gritty/P-Funk approach. With that said, I will always give praise to Herbie and Chick for collaborating with some of the best Rhythm Section musicians in recent times.

It's a matter of evolving and de-evolving. Yes the critics got on Herbie and Chick for moving to a more electronic sound but I think that alot of people knew that this blend was inevitable. Funk was still in its infancy at the time and to bring elements of traditional jazz in the mix was something that just had to happen, because of the times and because of the stagnant dead end that traditional jazz ended up at.

This is not the same for MAW and their Tranz record. And comparing Jazz to House is rather funny if you ask me, especially in the state that House music and the scene is in today.

This is a case of de-evolving. Why go backwards, the stuff has been produced and thought of already. Not the case with the Fusion. It's all about mathematics, and if you fail to realize how infinate the possiblities of music, harmonies, and melodies are, then let another person who can get beyond your scope of imagination through the door and take over.

There's too much "1984" nonsense going on in our scene.

Peace

C hristian

08-12-2003, 02:22 PM

whoops

[ August 12, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: C hristian ]

C hristian

08-12-2003, 02:26 PM

Originally posted by C hristian:
i apologize for knocking on NJ. And you know, the early jersey tracks that you know of may be different than the ones i heard. you may have the good one, and i may have the bad ones. i don't know early jersey tracks so well.

what i do know, is what i heard. and what i heard was a lot of what are now preset rhythms of a drum machine, with some short, quick vocal samples thrown in every once in a while. not a melody mind you, but people breathing heavy and what not. That's nice for the first few minutes, and it would have been very exciting if/when this was my first time hearing dance music, and thus, my personal envelope is being pushed. it would be exciting if this was part of something that's just new - and maybe it's because i was driving in a car , listening to it - but after a while, I find that i need to listen to something more than what is now preset rhythms. The envelope need to be pushed again. but i'm sure that if i had personal memories attached to these tracks, i wouldn't get tired of them so quickly.

So i don't connect so much to the drum machine presets, but that's probably becasue it's out of context today, to listen to them. They were originally made, back in the day, in response to the music of the times that was around. (sick and tired of that verse-chorus-verse-chorus 80s crap. But now here's something that changes all that!! No THAT is soulful!) But since i wasn't there, they are just preset rhythms. and the familiar ones are the ones i enjoy more. the tracks i already know.

and i think techno was in response to it's musical context and the times to. Although, I can't bring that up in my mind right now.

so where the hell am i going with all this now?
i think that when we are determining what is soulful and what isn't, sometimes it may have to do with the social and musical context of, and how it is a response to other musical/social statements that are out there.

And then a lot of our likenesses has to do with what is familar. Back to marketing. Drilling certain grooves in your head.

i'm sure that didn't go anywhere. i'll stop.

i know i had some idea, originally from last weekend. so i'll remember it, work on it, and then let you know.

djmarbll

08-12-2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by dannyboy:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
I feel ya 100%. Soul doesn't have to be just black-oriented music. To me, Hall & Oates, Doobie Bros., Beatles, Kansas, The Who, The Doors, Janis Joplin, and especially Led Zeppelin were all very soulful, just like many non-black artists of today (Nirvana, Jamiroquai, Nikka Costa, Alanis Morrisette, Eminem, etc.). I feel soul from all the artists I just mentioned and techno just deosn't give me the same feeling of soul at all. I just can't believe it. Not a single techno track is soulful to you? How about Knights of the Jaguar, or Strings of Life? Those are classics, but there are hundreds of tracks that are just as soulful. Maybe you have to expand your defenition of soulful? I guess techno is a little more agressive than the "soul" you are referring to, but there is soul in there too--it's just presented a little differently. [/QUOTE]"String of Life" was house before the term techno was ever conceived. Soulful is anything that moves me. That's about as general a definition I can give and techno has yet to do this for me. Like I said before, if you live in Chicago, listen to B96 late night on Fridays and Saturdays and you'll understand why I don't feel techno.

D J 1 3 8

08-12-2003, 03:26 PM

mhd

08-13-2003, 09:17 AM

hardly, more like the shrill frustration of the unrequited

Chris Conrad

08-13-2003, 10:45 AM

Originally posted by mhd:
hardly, more like the shrill frustration of the unrequited the only thing i'm frustrated with is people's obsession with the same stuff and the revisionist history that goes on all the time...the past two years or so have been particularly frustrating, with the so called deep house scene changing into one sound and viewpoint...also, you'd be surpised how many big names in the industry feel the same about their local scene...my challenge to everyone that i posted on page 1 of this thread still stands...ask one of the so called sellouts or people who don't play 'deep' anymore as to why they switched...

[ August 13, 2003, 11:48 AM: Message edited by: Chris Conrad ]

mhd

08-13-2003, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
hardly, more like the shrill frustration of the unrequited the only thing i'm frustrated with is people's obsession with the same stuff and the revisionist history that goes on all the time...the past two years or so have been particularly frustrating, with the so called deep house scene changing into one sound and viewpoint...also, you'd be surpised how many big names in the industry feel the same about their local scene...my challenge to everyone that i posted on page 1 of this thread still stands...ask one of the so called sellouts or people who don't play 'deep' anymore as to why they switched... [/QUOTE]just do your thing, and stop worrying about that other stuff, you constantly obsess about other folk's interpretation of their history while you try to force your viewpoint on them. lets agree to disagree and relax and make efforts to create the scene you want to see. as for big names in the industry, who cares? how about this quote from larry rauson:"House has an open door policy in terms of who can perform, and produce house, that has got to stop" i kinda agree with that, but from what you have posted in the past i don't see how you could. folks really need to chill and stop looking for market forces to influence this culture, more than it does already.