Is christianity a genetic/inherited trait or a learned/chosen behavior & lifestyle?

[Mark Andrus]

And in what way does the answer to this impact other people's "acceptance" of this religious lifestyle?

[LEONARD REMIX RROY]

DNA has nothing to do with choosing God.

If that trait is inherited, so must other traits.

For instance, my children are not interested in being a DJ at all...to add to that, whenever I am out with my son and someone starts to tell him about me as a DJ, his reply is very sarcastic - "I know, I know, I have herd all that over a million times." That is his response the majority of the time. Intrest level - Zero.

Enviorment plays a big part in what some children grow up to be or do. If a child recieves poor guidance from the jump street, that make a chance at success that much harder.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
DNA has nothing to do with choosing God.

If that trait is inherited, so must other traits.

For instance, my children are not interested in being a DJ at all...to add to that, whenever I am out with my son and someone starts to tell him about me as a DJ, his reply is very sarcastic - "I know, I know, I have herd all that over a million times." That is his response the majority of the time. Intrest level - Zero.

Enviorment plays a big part in what some children grow up to be or do. If a child recieves poor guidance from the jump street, that make a chance at success that much harder. What if a child received NO guidance?

[soulfabulous]

coming from a catholic background, religion is nothing more than brain washing. the sooner people realise that its just you , that theres no damnation , no pearly gates ,that the only persons beliefs you have to live by are your own , the better this world will be. mad1.gif

[LEONARD REMIX RROY]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by LEONARD REMIX RROY:
DNA has nothing to do with choosing God.

If that trait is inherited, so must other traits.

For instance, my children are not interested in being a DJ at all...to add to that, whenever I am out with my son and someone starts to tell him about me as a DJ, his reply is very sarcastic - "I know, I know, I have herd all that over a million times." That is his response the majority of the time. Intrest level - Zero.

Enviorment plays a big part in what some children grow up to be or do. If a child recieves poor guidance from the jump street, that make a chance at success that much harder. What if a child received NO guidance? </font>[/QUOTE]You then have a problem area equal to Englewood. We as parents are the initial teacher, when the child recieves none, they get it from the street and 9 times out of 10 - the information is wrong.

Look at how stupid some drug dealers are in Englewood. 500 grams powder cocaine - a person can get probation, 5 grams in rock form - a person recieves the max.

It appear to be the smarter move to sell powder and let people rock it up them-self but, that is not a reality.

Street teaching states, long as you pull out you wont knock a female up. Reality is the opposite. I would love if people in Englewood would go with the facts but, many are very quick to go on what they hear opposed to what is fact.

How many times is it said..."The Police can't do that" but they get away with infractions on the daily basis. The fact is, long as the paperwork is straight and there is no video tape of the incident, it is all considered hearsay depending on how extream the incident is.

Back in my Flashlight Cop days when (ILSC) Illinois State Criminal Code was chapter 28 instead of what is is now (ILSC 720), Armed Security guards were equal to 007, if one shot & or killed an unarmed person, all they had to do was sign a statement that said - the person went for their gun - they would then get off scott-free and the shooting would be deemed justified.

Sad but very true. A unwritten rule was, if you shoot, shoot to kill because a dead man cant sue.

Take that unwritten rule in combination with "he went for my gun" that is 007 - license to kill.
graemlins/bolt.gif

[And]

Christianity was learned (for me) ... boy was it learned. Every Sunday I was dragged off to church by mum, we prayed at home and everything ... probably why I don't go to church now. I do respect a lot of what I was taught in Church but have spent a lot of time picking apart what I believe and don't believe anymore. I understand the fear of losing/adjusting one's beliefs to incorporate new ideas, thoughts and the changing times ... but I'd rather grow with the world around me than hold steadfast to ideologies I'm not sure are helping anymore.

[JMNYC]

Spirituality is instinctive, but organized religion is learned. Religion consists of following and/or understanding the teachings of a book or leader, while spirituality is more of a direct relationship with whatever higher power you identify with.

[And]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
Spirituality is instinctive, but organized religion is learned. Religion consists of following and/or understanding the teachings of a book or leader, while spirituality is more of a direct relationship with whatever higher power you identify with. Damn ... Much better said. smile.gif

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Spirituality is with you when you are born, however an organized religion is learned to lead your spirituality to the Creator (for me it's The Lord, Jesus Christ).


coming from a catholic background, religion is nothing more than brain washing. the sooner people realise that its just you , that theres no damnation , no pearly gates ,that the only persons beliefs you have to live by are your own , the better this world will be. Brain washing is something that is constantly put into your mind without you reading and learning the source on your own. This world was not made on our own efforts, we all came from something. Yes even evolution had to start from somewhere, not just a bang. Furthermore how can anyone open there mouth and say there isn't a heaven or a hell when none of us ever been there to report back on? Once we are dead we can't come back and verify any of it. That is what make our life and the Creator more mysterious and intriguing (sp). There are alot of people that live on their own beliefs now and other people don't follow. If each of us lived according to our own as if no one else mattered then well.....Wait a minute The world is like that now! graemlins/scared.gif Fine job we are doing now by following our own standards don't you think? No man stands alone in this world and once we understand and respect each other's belief then the world would be a better place to live in - UNTIL THAT DAY OF THE APOCALYPSE, AND EVERYONE THAT HAS NOT FOLLOWED THE RIGHT PATH WILL BE CAST INTO THE FIERY PIT!!!!!!!! :eek: graemlins/rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif

[Bold Soul]

Religion is structured bullshit. Spirituality is FREE FORM bullshit.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

It's hard to learn who you are when you are busy trying to not be alone with yourself to think or meditate. Spirituality is part of who you are and part of your soul. Music is an example of being spiritual no matter what you listen to, if it moves you, that means it touched your being which is part spiritual and soulful. So calling spirituality free form BS is denying your BS ;)

[And]

Bold Soul please elaborate on the bullshit of religion and spirituality. Why do you feel so?

[Cleo Khary]

Originally posted by Mark Andrus:
And in what way does the answer to this impact other people's "acceptance" of this religious lifestyle? You are a funny dude! Unfortunately close-minded individuals like you are contributors to the sad state of ignorance this society is encompassed by. Open your mind. There is nothing wrong (IMHO) with intelligent mature "discussion' whatever the topic! graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

I wish you Peace and hope for growth....

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
It's hard to learn who you are when you are busy trying to not be alone with yourself to think or meditate. Spirituality is part of who you are and part of your soul. Music is an example of being spiritual no matter what you listen to, if it moves you, that means it touched your being which is part spiritual and soulful. So calling spirituality free form BS is denying your BS ;) Spirituality is conceptual at best. To separate ones being into several different elements - mind, body, soul, spirit - is to accept several different levels of mythology. I prefer a more unified sense of being.

The flesh is weak but the spirit is strong.
The body dies but the soul lives forever.

Excuses for accepting limitations of the human organism that require WORK to move beyond.

How is one "moved" by music? What is it to be "moved"? Certain combinations of endorphins and dopamine hit the pleasure centers of the brain and, all of a sudden, it constitutes spirit? You call it "spirituality" because you don't have enough of an understanding of psychology and biology.

Mythology is always used in place of understanding.

Conceptual superlatives such as these aren't consistent with anything but mythology - be it ancient or more recent.

[ May 24, 2003, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[soulfabulous]

as soon as you come out of the womb you are baptised(give or take a few weeks) in the name of jesus christ our lord, and you learn the teachings of god and all that bible stuff but say, you are born and your parents tell you that you are born in the name of jimmy joe joe junior shabidoo and if you follow the gospel of jimmy joe joe when you die you will live on mars in a magical cheese land where no sins are commited against cheese and cheese is the most holy of all virtues but thou must not sin against cheese or not belive in cheese because the true belief in cheese on mars is, we cannot prove there is cheese on mars but our belief that there is cheese on mars is the true test of our faith.
muddled but i hope you get my point smile.gif

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by soulfabulous:
as soon as you come out of the womb you are baptised(give or take a few weeks) in the name of jesus christ our lord, and you learn the teachings of god and all that bible stuff but say, you are born and your parents tell you that you are born in the name of jimmy joe joe junior shabidoo and if you follow the gospel of jimmy joe joe when you die you will live on mars in a magical cheese land where no sins are commited against cheese and cheese is the most holy of all virtues but thou must not sin against cheese or not belive in cheese because the true belief in cheese on mars is, we cannot prove there is cheese on mars but our belief that there is cheese on mars is the true test of our faith.
muddled but i hope you get my point smile.gif Indeed, I do.

[soulfabulous]

[/QUOTE] Bold Soul
Member # 1728 posted May 24, 2003 05:52 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by soulfabulous:
as soon as you come out of the womb you are baptised(give or take a few weeks) in the name of jesus christ our lord, and you learn the teachings of god and all that bible stuff but say, you are born and your parents tell you that you are born in the name of jimmy joe joe junior shabidoo and if you follow the gospel of jimmy joe joe when you die you will live on mars in a magical cheese land where no sins are commited against cheese and cheese is the most holy of all virtues but thou must not sin against cheese or not belive in cheese because the true belief in cheese on mars is, we cannot prove there is cheese on mars but our belief that there is cheese on mars is the true test of our faith.
muddled but i hope you get my point
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Indeed, I do.
graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[ May 24, 2003, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: soulfabulous ]

[And]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Spirituality is conceptual at best. To separate ones being into several different elements - mind, body, soul, spirit - is to accept several different levels of mythology. I prefer a more unified sense of being.

The flesh is weak but the spirit is strong.
The body dies but the soul lives forever.

Excuses for accepting limitations of the human organism that require WORK to move beyond.

How is one "moved" by music? What is it to be "moved"? Certain combinations of endorphins and dopamine hit the pleasure centers of the brain and, all of a sudden, it constitutes spirit? You call it "spirituality" because you don't have enough of an understanding of psychology and biology.

Please elaborate on this unified sense of being.
Taking into account the biological reasons you've given for "spirituality," are you sure that when all these biological elements come together they don't create another element that science has yet to measure or identify that is being called the spirit? (I'm just asking questions, I'm clearly not a biologist).
What kind of work do you feel helps one move beyond the flesh is weak spirit is strong 'excuse?' I ask because I've been reading some materials that presents humans as electrical and atomic organisms ... and am curious to read people's thoughts on this.

[DEEPHOUSEHEAD]

We are born and we die in this life
Yes,God (amongst other names that refer to the Creator),is our Maker.
The choices we make here,determine what happens next.
Are we created Christians ?

Firstly, we are creations of the creator.

If you asked me If I was Born a follower of Christ,I'd say its the same as asking,if I'm a follower of our Creator.Yes,I believe we are created to follow the creators desire for us,though we dont always choose to do so.

Its what this Life is really all about.
Straying from what he wants for us,Following what he wants for us,.Sinning - Repenting.
I find that I am spoken to subtly.When going in a wrong direction,I'm definately informed.Yes,I've attempted continuing in that wrong direction,many times,ignoring the signals,and then get slapped real nice.I have always then,turned right back around,and got back on the correct path.

When I first opened the Bible,I did'nt find myself reading something I was'nt familiar with,but I found myself reading something I already beleived,it was now just written in front of me.I found,it put my beliefs into words,which I was'nt able to do.Yes,as I read it deeper,much is learned.Not only learned,but shared.
I believe The Bible is Gods way of speaking to us,and ultimately bringing us home.When I first began reading the Bible I met a man on a train,and we began discussing it a bit.He said that the Bible is simply

B asic
I nstruction
B efore
L eaving
E arth

I Definately agree.

Whether one considers themself a Jew,Muslim,Buddist,Siik (not sure if spelled correctly,excuse me),Hindu,Athiest,or other,
Not a bad thing could be said about any of The teachings of Jesus Christ.
He brought our Creators message to Earth.
He was/is Peace,Unity and Love.

[And]

Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Andrus:
And in what way does the answer to this impact other people's "acceptance" of this religious lifestyle? You are a funny dude! Unfortunately close-minded individuals like you are contributors to the sad state of ignorance this society is encompassed by. Open your mind. There is nothing wrong (IMHO) with intelligent mature "discussion' whatever the topic! graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

I wish you Peace and hope for growth.... </font>[/QUOTE]I'm a little confused as to what you find objectionable with his question. What about his question makes you call him close minded? Perhaps I'm missing something? graemlins/conf44.gif

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by 6 23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Spirituality is conceptual at best. To separate ones being into several different elements - mind, body, soul, spirit - is to accept several different levels of mythology. I prefer a more unified sense of being.

The flesh is weak but the spirit is strong.
The body dies but the soul lives forever.

Excuses for accepting limitations of the human organism that require WORK to move beyond.

How is one "moved" by music? What is it to be "moved"? Certain combinations of endorphins and dopamine hit the pleasure centers of the brain and, all of a sudden, it constitutes spirit? You call it "spirituality" because you don't have enough of an understanding of psychology and biology.

Please elaborate on this unified sense of being.
Taking into account the biological reasons you've given for "spirituality," are you sure that when all these biological elements come together they don't create another element that science has yet to measure or identify that is being called the spirit? (I'm just asking questions, I'm clearly not a biologist).
What kind of work do you feel helps one move beyond the flesh is weak spirit is strong 'excuse?' I ask because I've been reading some materials that presents humans as electrical and atomic organisms ... and am curious to read people's thoughts on this. </font>[/QUOTE]This is certainly an off-board discussion for me but there are things such as quantum electrodynamics and thermodynamics and how they relate to human physiology that elevates the guessing games of "spirituality" and mythology to the level of hypothesis.

As far as any existence of soul or spirit in the human species, I do understand how they can be reasoned to exist. It is stopping at that level and not moving further than those notions that retard human evolution.

[Bold Soul]

Belief = conditioning.

[kara]

so unless you can find rational explanations for something, its not 'real'? whatabout faith? leap of faith? or just hope? what about love? do you reason love? how you feel? things you desire? why break it down to science? and when there are conflicting scientific theories, what then? does the 'thing in question' not exist until one theory triumphs?

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by kara:
so unless you can find rational explanations for something, its not 'real'? whatabout faith? leap of faith? or just hope? what about love? do you reason love? how you feel? things you desire? why break it down to science? and when there are conflicting scientific theories, what then? does the 'thing in question' not exist until one theory triumphs? My answer in part is that most human beings subscribe to placeholder beliefs. Consider that when you were 10 years old, you believed things that you no longer believe at 20. Then the beliefs of your 20s give way to the beliefs of your 30s, and so on and so on. The beliefs that one would kill or die for are but fleeting memories many years later.

There is value in emptiness.

[ May 24, 2003, 06:46 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Mythology is always used in place of understanding What you can't see you can't prove therefore it's a myth according to your humanization. We didn't create ourselves. Science didn't create the world either. If Science was above all then why can't scientist stop death and disease period?

I do not consider I believe in is Mythology, My heart and spirit believes in a higher power, I do not depend on a scientist to prove to me of an existence other than physical. There are always folk trying to figure out the existence of a higher being with science and if it can't be examined under a microscope it's a myth. So if Spirituality or belief in a Creator is a Myth then so is our existence.

[JMNYC]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kara:
so unless you can find rational explanations for something, its not 'real'? whatabout faith? leap of faith? or just hope? what about love? do you reason love? how you feel? things you desire? why break it down to science? and when there are conflicting scientific theories, what then? does the 'thing in question' not exist until one theory triumphs? My answer in part is that most human beings subscribe to placeholder beliefs. Consider that when you were 10 years old, you believed things that you no longer believe at 20. Then the beliefs of your 20s give way to the beliefs of your 30s, and so on and so on. The beliefs that one would kill or die for are but fleeting memories many years later.

There is value in emptiness. </font>[/QUOTE]We also have to consider "mindful" vs. "mindless" learning. We are taught very early in religious indoctrinations to be mindless. We are also taught to trust our teachers, police and politicians - see how far that gets you.

"Mindlessness results when we don’t know that the categories we subscribe to are categories, and have accepted them as our own without really thinking. Creating new categories, and reassessing old ones, is mindfulness. Or as William James put it: ‘Genius...means little more than the faculty of perceiving in an unhabitual way.’ " - [i]Mindfulness: Choice and Control in Everyday Lifeby Ellen Langer (author of The Power of Mindful Learning

Hopefully, at some point in your life, you begin to challenge the things you mindlessly learned as a child (like "the Holy Bible is the absolute truth", "don't question authority", "men are only meant to be with women", "milk is good for you", etc.) and begin making our own decision based on what we know is right in our own hearts.

[ May 24, 2003, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: JMNYC ]

[And]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kara:
so unless you can find rational explanations for something, its not 'real'? whatabout faith? leap of faith? or just hope? what about love? do you reason love? how you feel? things you desire? why break it down to science? and when there are conflicting scientific theories, what then? does the 'thing in question' not exist until one theory triumphs? My answer in part is that most human beings subscribe to placeholder beliefs. Consider that when you were 10 years old, you believed things that you no longer believe at 20. Then the beliefs of your 20s give way to the beliefs of your 30s, and so on and so on. The beliefs that one would kill or die for are but fleeting memories many years later.

There is value in emptiness. </font>[/QUOTE]Wouldn't that make "Science" then a place holder belief?

[Cleo Khary]

Originally posted by 6 23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Andrus:
And in what way does the answer to this impact other people's "acceptance" of this religious lifestyle? You are a funny dude! Unfortunately close-minded individuals like you are contributors to the sad state of ignorance this society is encompassed by. Open your mind. There is nothing wrong (IMHO) with intelligent mature "discussion' whatever the topic! graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

I wish you Peace and hope for growth.... </font>[/QUOTE]I'm a little confused as to what you find objectionable with his question. What about his question makes you call him close minded? Perhaps I'm missing something? graemlins/conf44.gif </font>[/QUOTE]My assumption 6 23 was that he started this post as a mockery (sarcastically) to the one that I posted in attempts to belittle the discussion. If my assumption was incorrect or hasty and the purpose of the topic is in fact legitimate discourse and discovery then please accept my apology.

Peace

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by 6 23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kara:
so unless you can find rational explanations for something, its not 'real'? whatabout faith? leap of faith? or just hope? what about love? do you reason love? how you feel? things you desire? why break it down to science? and when there are conflicting scientific theories, what then? does the 'thing in question' not exist until one theory triumphs? My answer in part is that most human beings subscribe to placeholder beliefs. Consider that when you were 10 years old, you believed things that you no longer believe at 20. Then the beliefs of your 20s give way to the beliefs of your 30s, and so on and so on. The beliefs that one would kill or die for are but fleeting memories many years later.

There is value in emptiness. </font>[/QUOTE]Wouldn't that make "Science" then a place holder belief? </font>[/QUOTE]In debate, this is both circular logic and begging the question.

It should be quite obvious that I am stating that the propensity to create spirits, gods, saviors, afterlives and other elements of the human belief structure takes the place of actual knowledge, and actual knowledge and understanding requires work.

JMNYC touched on this in his point about mindful and mindless learning.

Also, I'm not asserting what people SHOULD believe, nor am I asserting what I may "believe". I'm just irking the reality that most "beliefs" are simply strung together notions that, when pressed by certain circumstances, are forsake for more actuals.

[Cleo Khary]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kara:
so unless you can find rational explanations for something, its not 'real'? whatabout faith? leap of faith? or just hope? what about love? do you reason love? how you feel? things you desire? why break it down to science? and when there are conflicting scientific theories, what then? does the 'thing in question' not exist until one theory triumphs? My answer in part is that most human beings subscribe to placeholder beliefs. Consider that when you were 10 years old, you believed things that you no longer believe at 20. Then the beliefs of your 20s give way to the beliefs of your 30s, and so on and so on. The beliefs that one would kill or die for are but fleeting memories many years later.

There is value in emptiness. </font>[/QUOTE]We also have to consider "mindful" vs. "mindless" learning. We are taught very early in religious indoctrinations to be mindless. We are also taught to trust our teachers, police and politicians - see how far that gets you.

"Mindlessness results when we don’t know that the categories we subscribe to are categories, and have accepted them as our own without really thinking. Creating new categories, and reassessing old ones, is mindfulness. Or as William James put it: ‘Genius...means little more than the faculty of perceiving in an unhabitual way.’ " - [i]Mindfulness: Choice and Control in Everyday Lifeby Ellen Langer (author of The Power of Mindful Learning

Hopefully, at some point in your life, you begin to challenge the things you mindlessly learned as a child (like "the Holy Bible is the absolute truth", "don't question authority", "men are only meant to be with women", "milk is good for you", etc.) and begin making our own decision based on what we know is right in our own hearts. </font>[/QUOTE]Fortunately some things are TRUE whether we beleive them or not. ;)

Peace

[Cleo Khary]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mythology is always used in place of understanding What you can't see you can't prove therefore it's a myth according to your humanization. We didn't create ourselves. Science didn't create the world either. If Science was above all then why can't scientist stop death and disease period?

I do not consider I believe in is Mythology, My heart and spirit believes in a higher power, I do not depend on a scientist to prove to me of an existence other than physical. There are always folk trying to figure out the existence of a higher being with science and if it can't be examined under a microscope it's a myth. So if Spirituality or belief in a Creator is a Myth then so is our existence. </font>[/QUOTE]DiscoLady you are pullin out all the stops on this topic.. whew... graemlins/beerchug.gif

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mythology is always used in place of understanding What you can't see you can't prove therefore it's a myth according to your humanization. We didn't create ourselves. Science didn't create the world either. If Science was above all then why can't scientist stop death and disease period?

I do not consider I believe in is Mythology, My heart and spirit believes in a higher power, I do not depend on a scientist to prove to me of an existence other than physical. There are always folk trying to figure out the existence of a higher being with science and if it can't be examined under a microscope it's a myth. So if Spirituality or belief in a Creator is a Myth then so is our existence. </font>[/QUOTE]DiscoLady you are pullin out all the stops on this topic.. whew... graemlins/beerchug.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily, as she rationalized my point of view according to hers.

1. I have never asserted "what you can't see, you can't prove" - and neither does science. Science thrives because it accepts and incorporates the unseen to better understand the seen.

2. I never asserted "science is above all" - again, you are projecting your fears related to your own beliefs on my statement.

3. Science hasn't stopped death and disease for much of the same reasons that "God" hasn't.

4. I have not maintained that spirituality or belief in a "Creator" is a myth. To clarify, I maintain that current belief in a "Creator" or spirituality is based on MYTHOLOGY.

Just untwisting it for you.

[ May 24, 2003, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Cleo Khary]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mythology is always used in place of understanding What you can't see you can't prove therefore it's a myth according to your humanization. We didn't create ourselves. Science didn't create the world either. If Science was above all then why can't scientist stop death and disease period?

I do not consider I believe in is Mythology, My heart and spirit believes in a higher power, I do not depend on a scientist to prove to me of an existence other than physical. There are always folk trying to figure out the existence of a higher being with science and if it can't be examined under a microscope it's a myth. So if Spirituality or belief in a Creator is a Myth then so is our existence. </font>[/QUOTE]DiscoLady you are pullin out all the stops on this topic.. whew... graemlins/beerchug.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily, as she rationalized my point of view according to hers.

1. I have never asserted "what you can't see, you can't prove" - and neither does science. Science thrives because it accepts and incorporates the unseen to better understand the seen.

2. I never asserted "science is above all" - again, you are projecting your fears related to your own beliefs on my statement.

3. Science hasn't stopped death and disease for much of the same reasons that "God" hasn't.

4. I have not maintained that spirituality or belief in a "Creator" is a myth. To clarify, I maintain that current belief in a "Creator" or spirituality is based on MYTHOLOGY.

Just untwisting it for you. </font>[/QUOTE]Bold I am in no way twisted.

Some of your assertions seem to be flawed:

--in statement # 3 you assert that death and disease have not been stopped by science for the same reasons "God" hasn't, in effect giving "God" both reality and power.

--yet in statement # 4 you assert that belief in a "creator" is based on mythology (i.e. fokelore, fable, myth) which is quite different from the reality with which you equate "God" in the aforementioned statement.

--and could you expound on statement # 2? Why do you consider "science is above all" projecting "fears"?

Peace

[ May 24, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: C.L.E.O ]

[And]

Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Andrus:
And in what way does the answer to this impact other people's "acceptance" of this religious lifestyle? You are a funny dude! Unfortunately close-minded individuals like you are contributors to the sad state of ignorance this society is encompassed by. Open your mind. There is nothing wrong (IMHO) with intelligent mature "discussion' whatever the topic! graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

I wish you Peace and hope for growth.... </font>[/QUOTE]I'm a little confused as to what you find objectionable with his question. What about his question makes you call him close minded? Perhaps I'm missing something? graemlins/conf44.gif </font>[/QUOTE]My assumption 6 23 was that he started this post as a mockery (sarcastically) to the one that I posted in attempts to belittle the discussion. If my assumption was incorrect or hasty and the purpose of the topic is in fact legitimate discourse and discovery then please accept my apology.
Peace </font>[/QUOTE]Oh ... I see.
Hopefully he'll come back to the thread and respond to you. Thanks for clarifying. Man, I need to get off this board. It's 10:50 and I'm supposed to be going out. More later. Enjoy your evening all. smile.gif

[TAC]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Also, I'm not asserting what people SHOULD believe, nor am I asserting what I may "believe". I'm just irking the reality that most "beliefs" are simply strung together notions that, when pressed by certain circumstances, are forsake for more actuals. Damn bro, this is some higher order thinking! The scientist is dropping it on us... Deep sh*t...

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mythology is always used in place of understanding What you can't see you can't prove therefore it's a myth according to your humanization. We didn't create ourselves. Science didn't create the world either. If Science was above all then why can't scientist stop death and disease period?

I do not consider I believe in is Mythology, My heart and spirit believes in a higher power, I do not depend on a scientist to prove to me of an existence other than physical. There are always folk trying to figure out the existence of a higher being with science and if it can't be examined under a microscope it's a myth. So if Spirituality or belief in a Creator is a Myth then so is our existence. </font>[/QUOTE]DiscoLady you are pullin out all the stops on this topic.. whew... graemlins/beerchug.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily, as she rationalized my point of view according to hers.

1. I have never asserted "what you can't see, you can't prove" - and neither does science. Science thrives because it accepts and incorporates the unseen to better understand the seen.

2. I never asserted "science is above all" - again, you are projecting your fears related to your own beliefs on my statement.

3. Science hasn't stopped death and disease for much of the same reasons that "God" hasn't.

4. I have not maintained that spirituality or belief in a "Creator" is a myth. To clarify, I maintain that current belief in a "Creator" or spirituality is based on MYTHOLOGY.

Just untwisting it for you. </font>[/QUOTE]Bold I am in no way twisted.

Some of your assertions seem to be flawed:

--in statement # 3 you assert that death and disease have not been stopped by science for the same reasons "God" hasn't, in effect giving "God" both reality and power.

--yet in statement # 4 you assert that belief in a "creator" is based on mythology (i.e. fokelore, fable, myth) which is quite different from the reality with which you equate "God" in the aforementioned statement.

--and could you expound on statement # 2? Why do you consider "science is above all" projeting "fears"?

Peace </font>[/QUOTE]Let me clear up a couple of things for you.

To clarify #2 science isn't above all, people seem to look to science to explain the unexplained. God is the Author and the Finisher of ALL Things, science is part of our given talents to better understand our world we live in. I do not look to the bible as a book of fables nor do I have a fear in nothing but GOD. Projecting my fears of what? If anyone is fearful of something are the people that fear a supreme being because they would have to give in count for what they do and have to follow a certain lifestyle. So people will come up with alot of other things to contradict God and spirituality because of their own conflict within themselves.

We haven't allowed ourselves to be here, neither can we bring back life to death. God/Allah/Supreme being that breathes life into us can cut it off anytime. As far as God taking away life because of disease, well, we have ourselves to blame for early death as well. The thing that you fear the most can kill you before your time. Anything that you fear out of not knowing can consume you and do you harm. Having a fear of a higher power isn't being afraid to live,it's having respect for a supreme being. God didn't put us here to suffer, be in poverty, live in desitute (sp), the world has become corrupt and it is our destiny to find our place in this world to better ourselves and encourage others before we leave this world onto a better place.

I use the bible as an everyday tool for day-to-day living. I've tried and studied every other religious book, religion, philosophy, science known to man to better myself and it didn't work for me.

Let me stop because you will not understand. As I said before to each its own and I expect to give me the same respect. I am in now way trying to convince you just trying to defend my right of beliefs without folk trying to make me wrong in my choice of worship. Actually I could care less what people make think, I have walked a long way on many paths and I am very comfortable on the journey I'm on now. I am through, I must prepare myself and family for church tomorrow. smile.gif

[ May 24, 2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

[AD]

Don't mind me, I'm just passing through jackin' some thread. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/juggle.gif

[TAD]

Originally posted by Albert D.:
Don't mind me, I'm just passing through jackin' some thread. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/juggle.gif jack THIS (http://rtsp://real.cam.org/live/ckut.ra)

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mythology is always used in place of understanding What you can't see you can't prove therefore it's a myth according to your humanization. We didn't create ourselves. Science didn't create the world either. If Science was above all then why can't scientist stop death and disease period?

I do not consider I believe in is Mythology, My heart and spirit believes in a higher power, I do not depend on a scientist to prove to me of an existence other than physical. There are always folk trying to figure out the existence of a higher being with science and if it can't be examined under a microscope it's a myth. So if Spirituality or belief in a Creator is a Myth then so is our existence. </font>[/QUOTE]DiscoLady you are pullin out all the stops on this topic.. whew... graemlins/beerchug.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily, as she rationalized my point of view according to hers.

1. I have never asserted "what you can't see, you can't prove" - and neither does science. Science thrives because it accepts and incorporates the unseen to better understand the seen.

2. I never asserted "science is above all" - again, you are projecting your fears related to your own beliefs on my statement.

3. Science hasn't stopped death and disease for much of the same reasons that "God" hasn't.

4. I have not maintained that spirituality or belief in a "Creator" is a myth. To clarify, I maintain that current belief in a "Creator" or spirituality is based on MYTHOLOGY.

Just untwisting it for you. </font>[/QUOTE]Bold I am in no way twisted.

Some of your assertions seem to be flawed:

--in statement # 3 you assert that death and disease have not been stopped by science for the same reasons "God" hasn't, in effect giving "God" both reality and power.

--yet in statement # 4 you assert that belief in a "creator" is based on mythology (i.e. fokelore, fable, myth) which is quite different from the reality with which you equate "God" in the aforementioned statement.

--and could you expound on statement # 2? Why do you consider "science is above all" projeting "fears"?

Peace </font>[/QUOTE]Let me clear up a couple of things for you.

To clarify #2 science isn't above all, people seem to look to science to explain the unexplained. God is the Author and the Finisher of ALL Things, science is part of our given talents to better understand our world we live in. I do not look to the bible as a book of fables nor do I have a fear in nothing but GOD. Projecting my fears of what? If anyone is fearful of something are the people that fear a supreme being because they would have to give in count for what they do and have to follow a certain lifestyle. So people will come up with alot of other things to contradict God and spirituality because of their own conflict within themselves.

We haven't allowed ourselves to be here, neither can we bring back life to death. God/Allah/Supreme being that breathes life into us can cut it off anytime. As far as God taking away life because of disease, well, we have ourselves to blame for early death as well. The thing that you fear the most can kill you before your time. Anything that you fear out of not knowing can consume you and do you harm. Having a fear of a higher power isn't being afraid to live,it's having respect for a supreme being. God didn't put us here to suffer, be in poverty, live in desitute (sp), the world has become corrupt and it is our destiny to find our place in this world to better ourselves and encourage others before we leave this world onto a better place.

I use the bible as an everyday tool for day-to-day living. I've tried and studied every other religious book, religion, philosophy, science known to man to better myself and it didn't work for me.

Let me stop because you will not understand. As I said before to each its own and I expect to give me the same respect. I am in now way trying to convince you just trying to defend my right of beliefs without folk trying to make me wrong in my choice of worship. Actually I could care less what people make think, I have walked a long way on many paths and I am very comfortable on the journey I'm on now. I am through, I must prepare myself and family for church tomorrow. smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]You say "let me stop because you will not understand" - as if you have a privelige of understanding that I do not possess because I do not believe as you. This is a separation in your reality of "believers" to "non-believers" - hence a devaluation of my humanity because I choose not the acknowledge what you acknowledge - a constant through all religions and "spiritual" movements. And the justification for much misery in the world.

While we all may be challenging beliefs, no one is challenging anyone's right to believe - but I honestly consider that you are distancing yourself from the conversation because your own beliefs are being tested.

Religion has been much more readily available than science and the world has been no less corrupt than it is today.

[djmarbll]

I was born and raised aa an Apostolic Pentacostal christian. I wasn't born knowing the doctrines, but I was practicallyborn into the church. My father was the Minister of Music and Chairman of the Brotherhood in the church, and my mother was president of the Young Peoples' Department and the choir director. So I really didn't have a choice about Christianity.


However, once I got older, I realized that just because the pastor says something in church doesn't mean it's always true and that NO religion is innate, but a learned behavioral practice based on rituals. You get up every Sunday (day of the Sun/Son) to worship, you dress a certain way on Easter, you drink wine during communion, etc. These behaviors become second nature when you practice them enough. That's with any religion, not just Christianity.


I'm not knocking anyone's beliefs over this because your relationship with whom you believe created you is personal. But like George Carlin once said, "the eleventh Commandment should have been, 'Thy shall keep thy religion to thyself.'"


And Disoclady, I'm not so sure you've read every religious book. Because if you have, you'd know that the Bible itself borrows stories (the Flood, the Creation, the birth of a savior, etc.) from much older religious books such as the Enuma Elish, the Husia, the Writings of Ptah, the Book of Coming Forth by Day and by Night (also incorrectly known as the Book of the Dead), the Hymn of Akhenaton, the Pentateuch (the first five book of the Bible came from these writings), etc. The Bible doesn't even contain the vital information about Jehoshua (Jesus) from age 12-30. The Apocrypha and the Hiram Key the only books I've seen that have that info. So I'm not a Bible basher, but I know the Bible is just one of many books regarding religion and it's not the end-all book regarding religion.

[kara]

Originally posted by Albert D.:
Don't mind me, I'm just passing through jackin' some thread. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/juggle.gif hahaha

[martino]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mythology is always used in place of understanding What you can't see you can't prove therefore it's a myth according to your humanization. We didn't create ourselves. Science didn't create the world either. If Science was above all then why can't scientist stop death and disease period?

I do not consider I believe in is Mythology, My heart and spirit believes in a higher power, I do not depend on a scientist to prove to me of an existence other than physical. There are always folk trying to figure out the existence of a higher being with science and if it can't be examined under a microscope it's a myth. So if Spirituality or belief in a Creator is a Myth then so is our existence. </font>[/QUOTE]DiscoLady you are pullin out all the stops on this topic.. whew... graemlins/beerchug.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily, as she rationalized my point of view according to hers.

1. I have never asserted "what you can't see, you can't prove" - and neither does science. Science thrives because it accepts and incorporates the unseen to better understand the seen.

2. I never asserted "science is above all" - again, you are projecting your fears related to your own beliefs on my statement.

3. Science hasn't stopped death and disease for much of the same reasons that "God" hasn't.

4. I have not maintained that spirituality or belief in a "Creator" is a myth. To clarify, I maintain that current belief in a "Creator" or spirituality is based on MYTHOLOGY.

Just untwisting it for you. </font>[/QUOTE]Bold I am in no way twisted.

Some of your assertions seem to be flawed:

--in statement # 3 you assert that death and disease have not been stopped by science for the same reasons "God" hasn't, in effect giving "God" both reality and power.

--yet in statement # 4 you assert that belief in a "creator" is based on mythology (i.e. fokelore, fable, myth) which is quite different from the reality with which you equate "God" in the aforementioned statement.

--and could you expound on statement # 2? Why do you consider "science is above all" projeting "fears"?

Peace </font>[/QUOTE]Let me clear up a couple of things for you.

To clarify #2 science isn't above all, people seem to look to science to explain the unexplained. God is the Author and the Finisher of ALL Things, science is part of our given talents to better understand our world we live in. I do not look to the bible as a book of fables nor do I have a fear in nothing but GOD. Projecting my fears of what? If anyone is fearful of something are the people that fear a supreme being because they would have to give in count for what they do and have to follow a certain lifestyle. So people will come up with alot of other things to contradict God and spirituality because of their own conflict within themselves.

We haven't allowed ourselves to be here, neither can we bring back life to death. God/Allah/Supreme being that breathes life into us can cut it off anytime. As far as God taking away life because of disease, well, we have ourselves to blame for early death as well. The thing that you fear the most can kill you before your time. Anything that you fear out of not knowing can consume you and do you harm. Having a fear of a higher power isn't being afraid to live,it's having respect for a supreme being. God didn't put us here to suffer, be in poverty, live in desitute (sp), the world has become corrupt and it is our destiny to find our place in this world to better ourselves and encourage others before we leave this world onto a better place.

I use the bible as an everyday tool for day-to-day living. I've tried and studied every other religious book, religion, philosophy, science known to man to better myself and it didn't work for me.

Let me stop because you will not understand. As I said before to each its own and I expect to give me the same respect. I am in now way trying to convince you just trying to defend my right of beliefs without folk trying to make me wrong in my choice of worship. Actually I could care less what people make think, I have walked a long way on many paths and I am very comfortable on the journey I'm on now. I am through, I must prepare myself and family for church tomorrow. smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]You say "let me stop because you will not understand" - as if you have a privelige of understanding that I do not possess because I do not believe as you. This is a separation in your reality of "believers" to "non-believers" - hence a devaluation of my humanity because I choose not the acknowledge what you acknowledge - a constant through all religions and "spiritual" movements. And the justification for much misery in the world.

While we all may be challenging beliefs, no one is challenging anyone's right to believe - but I honestly consider that you are distancing yourself from the conversation because your own beliefs are being tested.

Religion has been much more readily available than science and the world has been no less corrupt than it is today. </font>[/QUOTE]well said. At the core of all religion is dogma:
A doctrinal notion asserted without regard to evidence or truth.

Because at the end of the day you just have to believe. It's about faith and thats it.
Which makes debating or even the discussion of religion between believers and nonbelievers
a frustrating experience to witness.

I myself believe that spirituality is a natural human trait. And it is conceptually expressed in different
ways, be it organized religion, mythology or running naked through fields with the hippies.
Which is all conditioned (learned or unlearned).

[kara]

for the most part yes, but i think some of the characteristics of spirituality that i identify is innate in some people .. i dont think the spirituality of the dalai lama is 100% learned, some of that is naturally part of who he is

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by kara:
for the most part yes, but i think some of the characteristics of spirituality that i identify is innate in some people .. i dont think the spirituality of the dalai lama is 100% learned, some of that is naturally part of who he is So being taken as a child into a monestary and being raised to believe that you are the Nth reincarnation of the most divine isn't LEARNED?

Your entire upbringing is performed by monks who look at you as their savior. Everything in your life is geared toward helping you remember who you "really" are in order for you to bring spiritual salvation to the world, and this isn't learned?

[ May 25, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by martino:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mythology is always used in place of understanding What you can't see you can't prove therefore it's a myth according to your humanization. We didn't create ourselves. Science didn't create the world either. If Science was above all then why can't scientist stop death and disease period?

I do not consider I believe in is Mythology, My heart and spirit believes in a higher power, I do not depend on a scientist to prove to me of an existence other than physical. There are always folk trying to figure out the existence of a higher being with science and if it can't be examined under a microscope it's a myth. So if Spirituality or belief in a Creator is a Myth then so is our existence. </font>[/QUOTE]DiscoLady you are pullin out all the stops on this topic.. whew... graemlins/beerchug.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily, as she rationalized my point of view according to hers.

1. I have never asserted "what you can't see, you can't prove" - and neither does science. Science thrives because it accepts and incorporates the unseen to better understand the seen.

2. I never asserted "science is above all" - again, you are projecting your fears related to your own beliefs on my statement.

3. Science hasn't stopped death and disease for much of the same reasons that "God" hasn't.

4. I have not maintained that spirituality or belief in a "Creator" is a myth. To clarify, I maintain that current belief in a "Creator" or spirituality is based on MYTHOLOGY.

Just untwisting it for you. </font>[/QUOTE]Bold I am in no way twisted.

Some of your assertions seem to be flawed:

--in statement # 3 you assert that death and disease have not been stopped by science for the same reasons "God" hasn't, in effect giving "God" both reality and power.

--yet in statement # 4 you assert that belief in a "creator" is based on mythology (i.e. fokelore, fable, myth) which is quite different from the reality with which you equate "God" in the aforementioned statement.

--and could you expound on statement # 2? Why do you consider "science is above all" projeting "fears"?

Peace </font>[/QUOTE]Let me clear up a couple of things for you.

To clarify #2 science isn't above all, people seem to look to science to explain the unexplained. God is the Author and the Finisher of ALL Things, science is part of our given talents to better understand our world we live in. I do not look to the bible as a book of fables nor do I have a fear in nothing but GOD. Projecting my fears of what? If anyone is fearful of something are the people that fear a supreme being because they would have to give in count for what they do and have to follow a certain lifestyle. So people will come up with alot of other things to contradict God and spirituality because of their own conflict within themselves.

We haven't allowed ourselves to be here, neither can we bring back life to death. God/Allah/Supreme being that breathes life into us can cut it off anytime. As far as God taking away life because of disease, well, we have ourselves to blame for early death as well. The thing that you fear the most can kill you before your time. Anything that you fear out of not knowing can consume you and do you harm. Having a fear of a higher power isn't being afraid to live,it's having respect for a supreme being. God didn't put us here to suffer, be in poverty, live in desitute (sp), the world has become corrupt and it is our destiny to find our place in this world to better ourselves and encourage others before we leave this world onto a better place.

I use the bible as an everyday tool for day-to-day living. I've tried and studied every other religious book, religion, philosophy, science known to man to better myself and it didn't work for me.

Let me stop because you will not understand. As I said before to each its own and I expect to give me the same respect. I am in now way trying to convince you just trying to defend my right of beliefs without folk trying to make me wrong in my choice of worship. Actually I could care less what people make think, I have walked a long way on many paths and I am very comfortable on the journey I'm on now. I am through, I must prepare myself and family for church tomorrow. smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]You say "let me stop because you will not understand" - as if you have a privelige of understanding that I do not possess because I do not believe as you. This is a separation in your reality of "believers" to "non-believers" - hence a devaluation of my humanity because I choose not the acknowledge what you acknowledge - a constant through all religions and "spiritual" movements. And the justification for much misery in the world.

While we all may be challenging beliefs, no one is challenging anyone's right to believe - but I honestly consider that you are distancing yourself from the conversation because your own beliefs are being tested.

Religion has been much more readily available than science and the world has been no less corrupt than it is today. </font>[/QUOTE]well said. At the core of all religion is dogma:
A doctrinal notion asserted without regard to evidence or truth.

Because at the end of the day you just have to believe. It's about faith and thats it.
Which makes debating or even the discussion of religion between believers and nonbelievers
a frustrating experience to witness.

I myself believe that spirituality is a natural human trait. And it is conceptually expressed in different
ways, be it organized religion, mythology or running naked through fields with the hippies.
Which is all conditioned (learned or unlearned). </font>[/QUOTE]Faith does not stem from belief. Hope stems from belief. Faith stems from trust.

[kara]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by kara:
for the most part yes, but i think some of the characteristics of spirituality that i identify is innate in some people .. i dont think the spirituality of the dalai lama is 100% learned, some of that is naturally part of who he is So being taken as a child into a monestary and being raised to believe that you are the Nth reincarnation of the most divine isn't LEARNED?


Your entire upbringing is performed by monks who look at you as their savior. Everything in your life is geared toward helping you remember who you "really" are in order for you to bring spiritual salvation to the world, and this isn't learned? </font>[/QUOTE]for many, for the majority, but i believe there are some people who are beyond that .. who have a different purpose in life .. and yes, i have no scientific proof to base that belief .. maybe its just something i choose to fool myself with after being conditionalized by society to think that there are a few select spiritual leaders of greatness ... but i still think that. i think most of the stuff is hooey, but some things .. i think are also not mean for me to 'understand', and i think there is definitely more than what human rational brains can figure out

[flypitcher]

kara don't let your insecurity be your security and as for bold soul, a pat on the back for very well reasoned points and splendidly put without any show of ego.

[JoeB]

Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mark Andrus:
And in what way does the answer to this impact other people's "acceptance" of this religious lifestyle? You are a funny dude! Unfortunately close-minded individuals like you are contributors to the sad state of ignorance this society is encompassed by. Open your mind. There is nothing wrong (IMHO) with intelligent mature "discussion' whatever the topic! graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

I wish you Peace and hope for growth.... </font>[/QUOTE]I'm a little confused as to what you find objectionable with his question. What about his question makes you call him close minded? Perhaps I'm missing something? graemlins/conf44.gif </font>[/QUOTE]My assumption 6 23 was that he started this post as a mockery (sarcastically) to the one that I posted in attempts to belittle the discussion. If my assumption was incorrect or hasty and the purpose of the topic is in fact legitimate discourse and discovery then please accept my apology.

Peace </font>[/QUOTE]i seriously don't think he was mocking the other thread but it's funny how quickly you jump to assumptions on that he is. maybe his question has validity with responses like yours? graemlins/conf44.gif

[Mark Andrus]

The main reason I posted this was because I've heard anti-gay Christian fundamentalists attempt to score points for their positions by claiming homosexuality is "learned behavior", and thought it might be interesting to turn the question around.

It wasn't intended to be "mocking" any other discussions....I don't have very much time to spend on here, and I'm not interested in wasting it "mocking" people I don't even know.

It's these kinds of interesting discussions that keep me coming back here to (mostly) read stuff...much more interesting than reading a bunch of stuff about who has what test pressing or whatever.

[And]

Originally posted by martino: I myself believe that spirituality is a natural human trait. And it is conceptually expressed in different ways, be it organized religion, mythology or running naked through fields with the hippies. Which is all conditioned (learned or unlearned).I like the bit about conceptual expression through mythology, org. rel. etc. Could you explain what you mean by "Which is all conditioned learned or unlearned." Examples of unlearned expression (of spirituality? - like all of a sudden being able to cure the blind and doing it in the name of my "spirituality?"). Hmm ... I may have confused myself with the question. graemlins/beerchug.gif

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by djmarbll:
... The Bible doesn't even contain the vital information about Jehoshua (Jesus) from age 12-30. The Apocrypha and the Hiram Key the only books I've seen that have that info. So I'm not a Bible basher, but I know the Bible is just one of many books regarding religion and it's not the end-all book regarding religion. Marbll, I read an interesting book called the "Aquarian Gospel of Jesus The Christ" by Levi. It did contain these missing years of Christ's life which was interesting to say the least. Where can I get these books you mention ( The Apocrypha and the Hiram Key ) ? I want to compare what they say concerning his life during those years to the above book.

-G

[kara]

Originally posted by flypitcher:
kara don't let your insecurity be your security and as for bold soul, a pat on the back for very well reasoned points and splendidly put without any show of ego. curious what about what i said = my insecurities?

[kara]

Originally posted by kara:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flypitcher:
kara don't let your insecurity be your security and as for bold soul, a pat on the back for very well reasoned points and splendidly put without any show of ego. curious what about what i said = my insecurities?

agreed on bold soul </font>[/QUOTE]

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by C.L.E.O:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Mythology is always used in place of understanding What you can't see you can't prove therefore it's a myth according to your humanization. We didn't create ourselves. Science didn't create the world either. If Science was above all then why can't scientist stop death and disease period?

I do not consider I believe in is Mythology, My heart and spirit believes in a higher power, I do not depend on a scientist to prove to me of an existence other than physical. There are always folk trying to figure out the existence of a higher being with science and if it can't be examined under a microscope it's a myth. So if Spirituality or belief in a Creator is a Myth then so is our existence. </font>[/QUOTE]DiscoLady you are pullin out all the stops on this topic.. whew... graemlins/beerchug.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Not necessarily, as she rationalized my point of view according to hers.

1. I have never asserted "what you can't see, you can't prove" - and neither does science. Science thrives because it accepts and incorporates the unseen to better understand the seen.

2. I never asserted "science is above all" - again, you are projecting your fears related to your own beliefs on my statement.

3. Science hasn't stopped death and disease for much of the same reasons that "God" hasn't.

4. I have not maintained that spirituality or belief in a "Creator" is a myth. To clarify, I maintain that current belief in a "Creator" or spirituality is based on MYTHOLOGY.

Just untwisting it for you. </font>[/QUOTE]Bold I am in no way twisted.

Some of your assertions seem to be flawed:

--in statement # 3 you assert that death and disease have not been stopped by science for the same reasons "God" hasn't, in effect giving "God" both reality and power.

--yet in statement # 4 you assert that belief in a "creator" is based on mythology (i.e. fokelore, fable, myth) which is quite different from the reality with which you equate "God" in the aforementioned statement.

--and could you expound on statement # 2? Why do you consider "science is above all" projeting "fears"?

Peace </font>[/QUOTE]Let me clear up a couple of things for you.

To clarify #2 science isn't above all, people seem to look to science to explain the unexplained. God is the Author and the Finisher of ALL Things, science is part of our given talents to better understand our world we live in. I do not look to the bible as a book of fables nor do I have a fear in nothing but GOD. Projecting my fears of what? If anyone is fearful of something are the people that fear a supreme being because they would have to give in count for what they do and have to follow a certain lifestyle. So people will come up with alot of other things to contradict God and spirituality because of their own conflict within themselves.

We haven't allowed ourselves to be here, neither can we bring back life to death. God/Allah/Supreme being that breathes life into us can cut it off anytime. As far as God taking away life because of disease, well, we have ourselves to blame for early death as well. The thing that you fear the most can kill you before your time. Anything that you fear out of not knowing can consume you and do you harm. Having a fear of a higher power isn't being afraid to live,it's having respect for a supreme being. God didn't put us here to suffer, be in poverty, live in desitute (sp), the world has become corrupt and it is our destiny to find our place in this world to better ourselves and encourage others before we leave this world onto a better place.

I use the bible as an everyday tool for day-to-day living. I've tried and studied every other religious book, religion, philosophy, science known to man to better myself and it didn't work for me.

Let me stop because you will not understand. As I said before to each its own and I expect to give me the same respect. I am in now way trying to convince you just trying to defend my right of beliefs without folk trying to make me wrong in my choice of worship. Actually I could care less what people make think, I have walked a long way on many paths and I am very comfortable on the journey I'm on now. I am through, I must prepare myself and family for church tomorrow. smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]You say "let me stop because you will not understand" - as if you have a privelige of understanding that I do not possess because I do not believe as you. This is a separation in your reality of "believers" to "non-believers" - hence a devaluation of my humanity because I choose not the acknowledge what you acknowledge - a constant through all religions and "spiritual" movements. And the justification for much misery in the world.

While we all may be challenging beliefs, no one is challenging anyone's right to believe - but I honestly consider that you are distancing yourself from the conversation because your own beliefs are being tested.

Religion has been much more readily available than science and the world has been no less corrupt than it is today. </font>[/QUOTE]Here we go, I wasn't comdemning anyone. I say let me stop because I cannot express my relationship with God (not religion, not a pastor, not myths) to anyone without question. Once again I am in the midst of a conversation that has no meaning. So my statement was total expression not condemnation toward anyone. Just as I said before this kind of topic can be swayed and people get things twisted because of their own personal understanding and want to make others feel that they are "questioning their own beliefs". I am not uncomfortable in my choice to worship, nor am I am not "distancing myself from the conversation because of my beliefs are being tested." I just have wisdom and know when to leave idol conversation alone. I am not flaky or care about test from people. We are all of the same flesh and are trying to make it out of this life the best way we can. So I could care less about what you and anyone else have to say about this. BUT I STILL HAVE LOVE FOR YA ;)

There will always be test and persecution because what I choose to follow and people like you will always be there to remind me that I have made the right choices in life. Debates like this make others that do not believe in anything question their own lifestyle, who they are and don't like having their beliefs tested. It must be thwarted onto someone that firmly believes in what they practice. If I were just a regular person doing regular things folk wouldn't notice or have ridicule. So I must be doing something right in my life to gain notice like this. ;) People are spending too much time on this topic trying to disprove religion, spirituality and a Creator. Why? Don't care, because this will be the last time I will respond to this thread. Carry on people you can put your stones and stakes away.

Like I said before I LOVE ALL OF YOU NO MATTER WHAT BECAUSE LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO PAY ATTENTION TO THE CHOICES THAT OTHERS MAKE. Peace

[ May 26, 2003, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

[And]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
know when to leave idol conversation alone. Idle/Idol conversation ... Heh, heh ... I just find it interesting in light of your position on God in this thread.

[mrbillpeewee]

Originally posted by djmarbll:
'"
And Disoclady, I'm not so sure you've read every religious book. Because if you have, you'd know that the Bible itself borrows stories (the Flood, the Creation, the birth of a savior, etc.) from much older religious books such as the Enuma Elish, the Husia, the Writings of Ptah, the Book of Coming Forth by Day and by Night (also incorrectly known as the Book of the Dead), the Hymn of Akhenaton, the Pentateuch (the first five book of the Bible came from these writings), etc. The Bible doesn't even contain the vital information about Jehoshua (Jesus) from age 12-30. The Apocrypha and the Hiram Key the only books I've seen that have that info. So I'm not a Bible basher, but I know the Bible is just one of many books regarding religion and it's not the end-all book regarding religion. Oh, now we are reading the good stuff! Now if you are really up to the task try talking to Lee, Sadar, GU, and the rest of the Bible worshipers.
Man they need you!

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by 6 23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
know when to leave idol conversation alone. Idle/Idol conversation ... Heh, heh ... I just find it interesting in light of your position on God in this thread. </font>[/QUOTE]You caught that huh? didn't anyone would notice how I put idol instead of idle. ;)

[Kream]

If you are concerned, confident or confused ask for clarity. I am confident if you really want the truth, ask the Lord Jesus Christ to reveal the truth to you in a way in which you will receive understanding, and You will. Open your eyes and your heart and you will recieve what you have been searching for your entire life. Trust and faithful, prayerful anticipation is the key.

[And]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
know when to leave idol conversation alone. Idle/Idol conversation ... Heh, heh ... I just find it interesting in light of your position on God in this thread. </font>[/QUOTE]You caught that huh? didn't anyone would notice how I put idol instead of idle. ;) </font>[/QUOTE];)

[JL]

Bold Soul - excellent points all in all. Are you familar with any of Krishnamurti's writings? I think he'd be right up your alley.

To answer the question, Religion is a creation by man to understand the unexplainable, or to deal with insecurities about life. It's for weak minded people. Spirituality is what this man made creation seeks to tie man to, so it's existence is questionable as well.

[M3taPhsX]

Is this question a joke?

[Jolyon]

Well someone once wrote...

Man makes religion, religion does not make man. Religion is indeed man's self-consciousness and self-awareness so long as he has not found himself or has already lost himself again. But, man is no abstract being squatting outside the world. Man is the world of man -- state, society. This state and this society produce religion, which is an inverted consciousness of the world, because they are an inverted world. Religion is the general theory of this world, its encyclopaedic compendium, its logic in popular form, its spiritual point d'honneur, it enthusiasm, its moral sanction, its solemn complement, and its universal basis of consolation and justification. It is the fantastic realization of the human essence since the human essence has not acquired any true reality. The struggle against religion is, therefore, indirectly the struggle against that world whose spiritual aroma is religion.

Religious suffering is, at one and the same time, the expression of real suffering and a protest against real suffering. Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

[lola desire]

nope i didn't read the entire thread. i would like to say this. religion and religious belief systems are, in my opinion, the first (and continue to be) science.

people are curious beings and seek to explain the phenomenon they whitness and answer the questions that come about in life. religon is one of the ways that human groups began to explain their circumstances, their condition.

with this being said, an individual born to a certain group may choose to accept the beliefs of this group, reject the beliefs of this group, seek thier own/another set of beliefs to explain their reality; or this individual may choose to do some combination of these. if we are born into a free society, then we should be free to choose.

[Bill Blake]

For the most part a great deal of this ‘discussion’ is what falls under the study of epistemology.

Faith is the acceptance of things with no proof.

Science, which seems to be greatly misunderstood by some in this discussion, yet seem to talk a hell a lot about it is not 'itself' the opposite of faith. It is system that has been developed under and a bi-product of a philosophy which is the ‘opposite’ of faith which is reason.

Science is simply a term used to describe a general METHOD by how one obtains what they know (or to be a little more precise, a general guidline for what dertermines what can be called knowledge/fact). This is called the scientific method.

· 1. Observe some aspect of the universe.
· 2. Invent a tentative description, called a hypothesis, that is consistent with what you have observed.
· 3. Use the hypothesis to make predictions.
· 4. Test those predictions by experiments or further observations and modify the hypothesis in the light of your results.
· 5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 until there are no discrepancies between theory and experiment and/or observation.

The difference between this approach and that of faith that seems to be misunderstood here is that faith is an inferior epistemology to that of reason. To argue that they ‘both serve some sort of purpose’ or ‘one works good for this and one works good for that’ is completely absurd.
I have no problem with people that wish to believe things based on the epistemology of faith. I believe people are free to believe whatever they chose. But to argue that their epistemological methods are to be treated with the same seriousness in some sort of ‘factual’ way with that of reason and science is complete ignorance and an insult to the human mind and its capacity.

[ May 28, 2003, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Jamie Lennox ]

[Bill Blake]

The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind (http://julianjaynessociety.tripod.com/bicameralmind.html)

As far as Christianity being 'genetic' or God in general, although I only read about half of this book when I was a teenager, and had at that time a few questions about the books logic (possible flaws)....the genetic predisposition to a humans belief in God has and does get studied.

[ May 28, 2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Jamie Lennox ]

[Cheddar]

Organized religon is laziness...IMHO.
Worship, study and live your religous life as an individual...put all the writings and teachings through yourself..and just live.
Also, sorry to say again but as descendants of African slaves...I am still confused how African Americans claim Christianity and Catholicism as their own.