what the hell happened to sophistication & class???

[lola desire]

kenspank and i were chatting this morning and reminiscing about how the soul artists of the 70s and 80s had an air of sophistication, style, and class. people in the media were grown: the men had facial (and often chest) hair, deep masculine voices, and wore suits--see bill withers; the women looked convincingly leagal, had developed hips and didn't have to be raunchy (or employ shock value) to let the men know they were interested--see minnie ripperton. i remember thinking: when i grow up i'm gonna have class like that.

did style and class go out with the new jack swing era of the 90s? did it get recycled or lost. of the the pop/soul entertainers that get any appreciable air time, there is not one that i would say that truely has that kind of class, much less style or sophistication.

what are your thoughts?

[JMJ]

Throw-away "artists" = Throw-away society. Fast food for the masses......JMJ :(

[simon b]

It got thrown out the window for the immediate gratification of a cheap thrill....

[ November 11, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: simon b ]

[Brut by Faberge]

hey, you don't need hips to have class ;)

seriously, i agree with you here...there is definitely an attractive quality with which performers way back when carried themselves. i think that it is a kind of confidence and openess that new performers are definitely missing. however, it is always a bit of a trap when we judge modern landscapes through "old school" lenses.

i think that what helps me to form this opinion more than anything is remembering my grandmother (rest in peace) speaking on this very topic, but she put all her chips over to the performers of the 40s/50s...nancy wilson, billie holiday, nat king cole, jackie wilson...the classics, believing that the performers (then 70s and 80s) that i loved lacked this essence.

anyway, yep, alot of what younger people now may consider sexy and "together" is a total turn-off to me. but i still keep in mind changing times and relativism. funny to think of, but back then, older folks thought of the contemporary performers that are now legends, as being raunchy and too wild!

[And]

Originally posted by THX-1138:

anyway, yep, alot of what younger people now may consider sexy and "together" is a total turn-off to me. but i still keep in mind changing times and relativism. funny to think of, but back then, older folks thought of the contemporary performers that are now legends, as being raunchy and too wild! Well put ... graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[MYOR]

Before you had 18 year old trying to look like sophisticated 30year olds. Now you have older 30year old folks trying to look 18.. graemlins/conf44.gif

[Cheddar]

Answer: video

[richierich]

I think the "Fame chase" has gotten totally out of hand. You have artists that will do ANYTHING for fame so the artists with integrity that stick to their morals are last on the list so to speak. This is by design... the lyrics and attitude are disrespectful and that has a serious affect on the people that listen to them. Hence lyrics that call our women bitches and ho's and preach all this material bling-bling shit is pounded into the psyche of those that let it and you wind up with a society that thinks this shit is cool. I bet you would not have the same marketing to people if the lyrics were about positivity and respect for one another..they would be deemed boring and not profitable(so they tell us).What hapened to the movement..it got bought out!! Now instead of content and talent the suits have the artist thinking that they need an edge to make it and that edge is take your clothes off and look like a slut....it's cool..yeah wear all that country ass jewelry instead of investing into real estate(because we really don't want you to have shit anyways). Total disrespect...this is what Dr. King died for, this is what Malcolm died for. This is what our parents taught us..be a ho or a slut or a dude who disrespects his own women...Not!!.......PATHETIC!! Can you say Caligula.. My car, My jewels, My ho's, drink Cristal..it's the good poison!!

[ November 11, 2003, 01:57 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

[Cheddar]

Originally posted by richierich:
I think the "Fame chase" has gotten totally out of hand. You have artists that will do ANYTHING for fame so the artists with integrity that stick to their morals are last on the list so to speak. This is by design... the lyrics and attitude are disrespectful and that has a serious affect on the people that listen to them. Hence lyrics that call our women bitches and ho's and preach all this material bling-bling shit is pounded into the psyche of those that let it and you wind up with a society that thinks this shit is cool. I bet you would not have the same marketing to people if the lyrics were about positivity and respect for one another..they would be deemed boring and not profitable(so they tell us).What hapened to the movement..it got bought out!! Now instead of content and talent the suits have the artist thinking that they need an edge to make it and that edge is take your clothes off and look like a slut....it's cool..yeah wear all that country ass jewelry instead of investing into real estate(because we really don't want you to have shit anyways). Total disrespect...this is what Dr. King died for, this is what Malcolm died for. This is what our parents taught us..be a ho or a slut or a dude who disrespects his own women...PATHETIC!! On Jay Z's new one he says:
"I got the Baddest CHIC in the game, wearing my chain".
An obvious reference to Beyonce & regardless if serious or not...this statement says to young fellers that it is OK to refer to your lady as a CHIC.

Maybe she likes it.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by richierich:
I think the "Fame chase" has gotten totally out of hand. You have artists that will do ANYTHING for fame so the artists with integrity that stick to their morals are last on the list so to speak. This is by design... the lyrics and attitude are disrespectful and that has a serious affect on the people that listen to them. Hence lyrics that call our women bitches and ho's and preach all this material bling-bling shit is pounded into the psyche of those that let it and you wind up with a society that thinks this shit is cool. I bet you would not have the same marketing to people if the lyrics were about positivity and respect for one another..they would be deemed boring and not profitable(so they tell us).What hapened to the movement..it got bought out!! Now instead of content and talent the suits have the artist thinking that they need an edge to make it and that edge is take your clothes off and look like a slut....it's cool..yeah wear all that country ass jewelry instead of investing into real estate(because we really don't want you to have shit anyways). Total disrespect...this is what Dr. King died for, this is what Malcolm died for. This is what our parents taught us..be a ho or a slut or a dude who disrespects his own women...PATHETIC!! Can you say Caligula.. By design? Please elaborate.

And IMO, Martin & Malcolm died for a lot more than just women dressing like Minnie Riperton instead of Lil' Kim. Their issues went a little deeper than current trends of what's sexy and what's not.

[richierich]

No that's not all that Martin and Malcolm died for but you can best believe that this shit is something that they preached against..lack of self respect..having self pride. By design I maen that instead of pushing uplifting positive pride lyrics it would do more damage to a people so rooted in music to hear degrading lyrics pounded into their heads. Looking at videos 24/7 that depict women the way they do. Music has a way of seeping into a persons psyche as opposed to speeches we were sung our ABCs..no??? Art is supposed to imitate life but in this case it's Life imitating art and and the art is disrespectful, degrading and downright insultful.

[And]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
I think the "Fame chase" has gotten totally out of hand. You have artists that will do ANYTHING for fame so the artists with integrity that stick to their morals are last on the list so to speak. This is by design... the lyrics and attitude are disrespectful and that has a serious affect on the people that listen to them. Hence lyrics that call our women bitches and ho's and preach all this material bling-bling shit is pounded into the psyche of those that let it and you wind up with a society that thinks this shit is cool. I bet you would not have the same marketing to people if the lyrics were about positivity and respect for one another..they would be deemed boring and not profitable(so they tell us).What hapened to the movement..it got bought out!! Now instead of content and talent the suits have the artist thinking that they need an edge to make it and that edge is take your clothes off and look like a slut....it's cool..yeah wear all that country ass jewelry instead of investing into real estate(because we really don't want you to have shit anyways). Total disrespect...this is what Dr. King died for, this is what Malcolm died for. This is what our parents taught us..be a ho or a slut or a dude who disrespects his own women...PATHETIC!! Can you say Caligula.. By design? Please elaborate.

And IMO, Martin & Malcolm died for a lot more than just women dressing like Minnie Riperton instead of Lil' Kim. Their issues went a little deeper than current trends of what's sexy and what's not. </font>[/QUOTE]Marketing research ... Nielsen's, Phone surveys, copy catting, questionnaires, promos, etc, etc.

[ November 11, 2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: 6 23 ]

[statuskuo]

where're the Freddie jacksons of R&B these days?

[upliftdisco365]

We've become de-sensitized as a culture.

Our attention spans have eroded to nothingness. We have no time to absorb the asthetic of meaniful artistic expression. We need instant, 1/4-second frame, real-time, flash delivery of our entertainment, our food and our information. If it's not bleeding, exploding, self-depricating or showing tits, then it has no place in the mass-media. As I've said many times, the general public sucks and there are far more of them than there are thinking people that give a damn.

Music, literature and art of any quality and/or merit are getting more and more sparce because the de-evolving, moron-masses have rendered intellect unnecessary. There's no one left to purchse/patronize it.

Get rich. Move to a flower-littered valley in Central Wyoming and watch the fu.cking carnage on CNN.

[ November 11, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: upliftdisco365 ]

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by 6 23:
Marketing research ... Nielsen's, Phone surveys, copy catting, questionnaires, promos, etc, etc. Yes, I understand how marketing is done.

However, Rich's post speaks to a much bigger conspiracy theory that record labels are purposefully mainpulating their artists in to embracing these negative stereotypes, not out of a wish to sell more product, but some larger goal of "pounding degrading lyrics in to their heads" (paraphrasing) in order to "do damage" to a people (black people). These kind of conspiracy theories get tossed around on DHP all day an no one is ever questioned as to providing any evidence of these outlandish claims. All I ever get in response to a request for factual evidence is "isn't it obvious?" and whatnot. "Isn't it obvious?" will not win you any debates in this life.

While most of us do agree that there are a lot of negative stereotypes being enforced by popular music and culture, I, for one, do not believe that there are evil men in board rooms scheming how to damage black people with rap music videos. The only scheming their doing is how to make more money and get a bigger bonus, period. I have seen NO evidence of a racist agenda that is being lierally designed in some dark tower somewhere.

It's a myth promoted by people who want easy answers and someone to blame. The truth is much more complex and speaks more about the nature of our Capitalist society and individuals willing to pimp themselves for a buck than some "master plan".

[lola desire]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
The truth is much more complex and speaks more about the nature of our Capitalist society and individuals willing to pimp themselves for a buck than some "master plan". the "self-pimping for money/fame" thing is tragic, to say the least.

[richierich]

DJ138 You've got your opinions on things ..I have mine..that is OK.. right?? Why wouldn't there possibly be a conspiracy??? I think there is and will always be a master plan to keep the dark-skinned people of the world oppressed..it's in full affect in my opinion. Why is gospel rap not pushed? Why is positive reinforcement not pushed?? Anything is possible. I don't put anything past the powers that be to keep a people down be it negative images in videos, music, be it drugs that somehow flood our community, be it only having foreigners owning the corner stores in our neighborhood.. I mean yeah all of this is strictly coincidental...I aint buying it!! If this is and people are cool with it then that's their choice. Yeah it's cool to slang rocks...yeah that's the ticket..until yo ass get's locked up!! You can't prove that suits profit off drug usage in this country either but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. My feelings are not debatable...BRING BACK CLASS AND ELEGANCE ANYDAY OVER THIS PIMP/THUGS/HO/DRUG DEALING/COUNTRY JEWELRY WEARING/BAGGY PANTS(like you've been in lock-up and they took your belt)DU-RAG WEARING SHIT!!

[ November 11, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by statuskuo:
where're the Freddie jacksons of R&B these days? i dunno...but he rocked it at summerstage with chaka!!!

i gotta say, i am more inclined to agree with DJ138. let's think about the anti-intelligencia devil's art forms of the past: bee-bop jazz, early rock n roll, the blues --- placed into proper context, all these now-tame genres were regarded in some sense with contempt from certain (arguably more informed) segments of black society as signalling the beginning of an end to all that is wholesome...

why is it that we have such a utopic (sp) view of the past? as though black life was just this perfect portrait of the downtrodden but honorable, who never ever wrote songs about fcuking, drinking and killing one another...

i try not to be too quick to judge these kids (the majority of the fan base...kids) because no matter when and where you are living, kids, with all their budding sexuality, confusion, anger, and mistrust of the staus quo, are going to be attracted to the music that speaks clearest to all their welling desires and disdain.

Hip-Hop lyrics are not killing black people. The US Department of Miseducation is killing black people. Pick your weapon.

[Huey P. Freeman]

Originally posted by JMJ:
Throw-away "artists" = Throw-away society. Fast food for the masses......JMJ :( Very true.

[mhd]

i'm a little puzzled, julian always tries to demonstrate knowledge of and familiarity with black culture which suggests some affinity, but every now and then, statements will be made which show vast ignorance and abject hatred, imo. so, i'm trying to understand the intent behind your statement

[lola desire]

Originally posted by THX-1138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by statuskuo:
where're the Freddie jacksons of R&B these days? i dunno...but he rocked it at summerstage with chaka!!!

i gotta say, i am more inclined to agree with DJ138. let's think about the anti-intelligencia devil's art forms of the past: bee-bop jazz, early rock n roll, the blues --- placed into proper context, all these now-tame genres were regarded in some sense with contempt from certain (arguably more informed) segments of black society as signalling the beginning of an end to all that is wholesome...
</font>[/QUOTE]speaking of the blues... i seen an episode of that pbs special and i wanted to share a little factoid i learned...

the rolling stones got their name from a muddy waters song called "rollin' stone". AND they loved blues--chicago blues to be specific--so much, they recorded thier second album (1964) in chicago.

i also saw segments of a really fresh interview with jimi hendrix--i'm inspired to do some more research on this dude since my parents slept and couldn't offer a whole lot of background on him.

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by lola desire:
[speaking of the blues... i seen an episode of that pbs special and i wanted to share a little factoid i learned...

the rolling stones got their name from a muddy waters song called "rollin' stone". AND they loved blues--chicago blues to be specific--so much, they recorded thier second album (1964) in chicago.

i also saw segments of a really fresh interview with jimi hendrix--i'm inspired to do some more research on this dude since my parents slept and couldn't offer a whole lot of background on him. yes! lola i believe they recorded at the chess records studios down on south michigan ave.

and jimi!? OMG...there's alot on him now, but the classic documentary came out shortly after he passed (mid-late 70s) and is still the best, titled simply, i believe, "jimi hendrix." you can see his old friends and his old girlfriend and just some awesome footage.

what's nuts is that, while now, jimi hendrix is god-like to many black folk, my mom once told me that black kids who dug jimi were thought to be "weird" or viewed as being very rebellious or something...if that is so...what a turnaround...

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by mhd:
i'm a little puzzled, julian always tries to demonstrate knowledge of and familiarity with black culture which suggests some affinity, but every now and then, statements will be made which show vast ignorance and abject hatred, imo. so, i'm trying to understand the intent behind your statement Now I'm confused. Please feel free to pint out my "vast ignorance and abject hatred".

I think the intent behind my statement is pretty clear. To sum up, I agree that there are negative stereotypes reinforced by Amercian pop culture. However, in no way shape or form do I believe that there is a conspiracy by A&R execs to push these negative stereotypes on black folks in order to damage them. This is what Rich's post implied. He says he does not wish to debate, which is his perogative. I contend that money is what motivated A&R execs and hip hop artists alike, not racist conspiracies.

Since you have called me out, please tell me what I have said that displays hatred of any kind.

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by lola desire:
i also saw segments of a really fresh interview with jimi hendrix--i'm inspired to do some more research on this dude since my parents slept and couldn't offer a whole lot of background on him. Get the album "Axis: Bold As Love" - his best, IMO.

Either that or the double vinyl greatest hits, with the purple cover.

[Friday]

Originally posted by THX-1138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lola desire:
[speaking of the blues... i seen an episode of that pbs special and i wanted to share a little factoid i learned...

the rolling stones got their name from a muddy waters song called "rollin' stone". AND they loved blues--chicago blues to be specific--so much, they recorded thier second album (1964) in chicago.

i also saw segments of a really fresh interview with jimi hendrix--i'm inspired to do some more research on this dude since my parents slept and couldn't offer a whole lot of background on him. yes! lola i believe they recorded at the chess records studios down on south michigan ave.

and jimi!? OMG...there's alot on him now, but the classic documentary came out shortly after he passed (mid-late 70s) and is still the best, titled simply, i believe, "jimi hendrix." you can see his old friends and his old girlfriend and just some awesome footage.

what's nuts is that, while now, jimi hendrix is god-like to many black folk, my mom once told me that black kids who dug jimi were thought to be "weird" or viewed as being very rebellious or something...if that is so...what a turnaround... </font>[/QUOTE]On the Jimi Hendrix tip.....you guys should pick up Jimi Hendrix :blues. My fav song, Born under a Bad Sign hail.gif now that's the shit!

[And]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
While most of us do agree that there are a lot of negative stereotypes being enforced by popular music and culture, I, for one, do not believe that there are evil men in board rooms scheming how to damage black people with rap music videos. The only scheming their doing is how to make more money and get a bigger bonus, period. I have seen NO evidence of a racist agenda that is being lierally designed in some dark tower somewhere.

It's a myth promoted by people who want easy answers and someone to blame. The truth is much more complex and speaks more about the nature of our Capitalist society and individuals willing to pimp themselves for a buck than some "master plan". Of course we're responsible for ourselves. I'm relating (I think) to what you and RR are saying. In response: There's a whole lotta selling going on ... We aren't 100% self sustaining so if large numbers of individuals in our environment wish to start "selling their souls," of course that will affect how things are marketed. So yes, I agree with you ... "

The truth is much more complex and speaks more about the nature of our Capitalist society and individuals willing to pimp themselves for a buck than some "master plan .."

Maybe it starts feeling like a master plan when "those individuals" with the "power" decide one pattern fits all and systems are put in place to guarantee "their" needs are always met.

"Yes, I understand how marketing is done." - No "backhand diss" here ..DJ 138

graemlins/cool_shades.gif

[ November 11, 2003, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: 6 23 ]

[richierich]

As for Jimi Hendrix.. "Band of Gypsies" is THE album
"Who knows" is THE song on that album :D

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by richierich:
As for Jimi Hendrix.. "Band of Gypsies" is THE album
"Who knows" is THE song on that album :D hahaha...i remember you and/or sadar rockin that at one of the "aquarius" parties awhile back...props!!!

[Brut by Faberge]

how did this become all about jimi!? icon_rofl.gif

anyway...just got 2 pretty ass first pressings of band of gypsies and electric ladyland for a steal smile.gif

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by 6 23:
Maybe it starts feeling like a master plan when "those individuals" with the "power" decide one pattern fits all and systems are put in place to guarantee "their" needs are always met.
Understood, but "feeling" like a master plan and actually being a master plan that is designed are two VERY different realities. And, IMO, the master plan concept is a flase premise, which also diverts responsibility from those that produce the music and those that buy it.

Why do we hold record executives to higher standards than we hold our own children? Why do we expect THEM to start pushing gospel house, instead of looking deeper within our own communities to understand why an entire generation prefers music about drugs and death?


Originally posted by 6 23:
"Yes, I understand how marketing is done." - No "backhand diss" here ..DJ 138

graemlins/cool_shades.gif Understood. Peace.

[D J 1 3 8]

mhd, please respond to my earlier post. I really dislike being accused of having hatred for anybody and I am fully prepared to defend my point of view. Are you?

[mhd]

sorry if i struck a nerve, but gimme a sec

[Moksha]

Hahahaha! Julian is a racist because he doesn't believe in a conspiracy theory against the black man. There goes your affinity!

138, take note: The white man came from the devil, the black man came from outerspace.

[C hristian]

Lola - The Rolling Stones did more than that. They arranged to have some of their favorite original blues artists perform on TV, in front of their fans. etc.

They were responsible bluesmen, paying homage to those whom they learned from. (my interpretation.) They gave some of these old guys a second musical life. Granted, the audience was predominantly white. But maybe for the first time, they were being exposed to a white society. (Britain, the US, or both, I forget.)

[Rom]

Originally posted by THX-1138:
hey, you don't need hips to have class ;)

seriously, i agree with you here...there is definitely an attractive quality with which performers way back when carried themselves. i think that it is a kind of confidence and openess that new performers are definitely missing. however, it is always a bit of a trap when we judge modern landscapes through "old school" lenses.

i think that what helps me to form this opinion more than anything is remembering my grandmother (rest in peace) speaking on this very topic, but she put all her chips over to the performers of the 40s/50s...nancy wilson, billie holiday, nat king cole, jackie wilson...the classics, believing that the performers (then 70s and 80s) that i loved lacked this essence.

anyway, yep, alot of what younger people now may consider sexy and "together" is a total turn-off to me. but i still keep in mind changing times and relativism. funny to think of, but back then, older folks thought of the contemporary performers that are now legends, as being raunchy and too wild! A more rational statement I have rarely read.

[lola desire]

thanks for all the responses...

just as a follow up on the "conspiracy"; there ARE choices made about which artists get signed and which artists do not.

it is fortunate that many artists are producing their own music these days.

[The Real Dragonfly Jones]

A quote from Dave Chappelle:

Chivalry is dead.....and women killed it!!

[And]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
Maybe it starts feeling like a master plan when "those individuals" with the "power" decide one pattern fits all and systems are put in place to guarantee "their" needs are always met.
Understood, but "feeling" like a master plan and actually being a master plan that is designed are two VERY different realities. And, IMO, the master plan concept is a flase premise, which also diverts responsibility from those that produce the music and those that buy it.

Why do we hold record executives to higher standards than we hold our own children? Why do we expect THEM to start pushing gospel house, instead of looking deeper within our own communities to understand why an entire generation prefers music about drugs and death?
</font>[/QUOTE]In response to this, I'll refer you to Lola's response above.

[MusicFilter]

Originally posted by richierich:
I think the "Fame chase" has gotten totally out of hand. You have artists that will do ANYTHING for fame so the artists with integrity that stick to their morals are last on the list so to speak. This is by design... the lyrics and attitude are disrespectful and that has a serious affect on the people that listen to them. Hence lyrics that call our women bitches and ho's and preach all this material bling-bling shit is pounded into the psyche of those that let it and you wind up with a society that thinks this shit is cool. I bet you would not have the same marketing to people if the lyrics were about positivity and respect for one another..they would be deemed boring and not profitable(so they tell us).What hapened to the movement..it got bought out!! Now instead of content and talent the suits have the artist thinking that they need an edge to make it and that edge is take your clothes off and look like a slut....it's cool..yeah wear all that country ass jewelry instead of investing into real estate(because we really don't want you to have shit anyways). Total disrespect...this is what Dr. King died for, this is what Malcolm died for. This is what our parents taught us..be a ho or a slut or a dude who disrespects his own women...Not!!.......PATHETIC!! Can you say Caligula.. My car, My jewels, My ho's, drink Cristal..it's the good poison!! Very well said my nubian brotha! graemlins/grinyes.gif

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by lola desire:
thanks for all the responses...

just as a follow up on the "conspiracy"; there ARE choices made about which artists get signed and which artists do not.

it is fortunate that many artists are producing their own music these days. Yes, there are choices made in any business.

My contention is that these choices in the record industry are motivated by money and money alone.

[MusicFilter]

Bottom line is MONEY. People will sell anything if people will buy anything.

If it's the hoochie look, dirty look, profanity and gangsta mentality and people are buying it, someone is going to sell it.

I must admit that artist such as Musiq, Amel Larrieux and India.Arie are working hard to bring back that image you spoke of Lola.

[D J 1 3 8]

Speaking of artists like that, I'll never understand why eiether Kenny Latimore or Victor Duplaix never really blew up.

Both can write a great song, sing their asses off, AND they're both total pretty boys. I think their A&R people were asleep at the wheel.

[mhd]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lola desire:
thanks for all the responses...

just as a follow up on the "conspiracy"; there ARE choices made about which artists get signed and which artists do not.

it is fortunate that many artists are producing their own music these days. Yes, there are choices made in any business.

My contention is that these choices in the record industry are motivated by money and money alone. </font>[/QUOTE]you could make the same contention about slavery, on the other hand there was no profit in lynching...

[corwin]

"Bad taste creates many more millionaires than good taste."

---Charles Bukowski

[lola desire]

Originally posted by corwin:
"Bad taste creates many more millionaires than good taste."

---Charles Bukowski word.

[Mr. Clubman]

I think I know what your getting at; nobody respects anything anymore. It's messed up I think. Back in the days it was respect and feeling good about yourself and making others feel comfortable and good. Nowadays: Fuck it! Fuck this, fuck that, fuck the other. No real love, just lust and shallowness. Fake smiles, sharp things in your back graemlins/jpshakehead.gif Fortunately there are a few respectable people left in the world, like me :D , and you and any others...