Bassline and Kick Drums

[Walter Stallworth]

I got a track that's done but how do I get the kick drum and the bassline not to sound muddled. Is it different compressions on each? Different EQ's on each or just trial and error. I tried looking online for a few things and they all pretty much mentioned EQ's from what I've found. I'm sure I'll get a bunch of different answers but I'll take all input..Thanks in advance.

[migumartinez]

yes eqing.
and sidechain compression.

this forces to lower the bass when the kick comes in.
there a a lot of videos on youtube, that show u how to do it.

migu

[blackwax]

also try tuning the kick to the bass

tuning drums is as important as tuning instruments!

some great advice from a great producer of beats
"My Name is Phlash and Drum programming is one helluva an Obsession"
If you want your drums to sound right, you need to understand the rudiments of a Beat, Ie: "what and in which order the drummers playing each drum or cymbal".
this principle applies to all beat makers, Matts got the right idea as well, copy your favorite beat, rip it apart, dissect it down to single hits, then work out how it ticks, learn the rudiments and you can apply these to a thousand beats, slightly changing swing percentage, position of beats and sounds for each different beat.
An essential thing is TUNING, if a Kick drum is out of tune with the bass its gonna sound flat or sharp, same goes for all the other elements of the drum Kit. Tuning is essential to a good groove, now if you sample a kick drum and it has a snare on top, have a good listen to the tuning, if you adjust the tuning of that kick, remember the snares gonna tune with it, creating a dis chord if out of tune, which can sometimes be favorable to the sound, but normally just sounds out of tune. Maw, 4 HERO, Moodyman, Dj Premier, Kerrie Chandler, Frankie Feliciano, Jaydee (R.I.P), Mood to Swing, Fanatix, Lil Louis, Underground Resistance always have well tuned drums in my opinion.
As for Sample source, If you can hear it, Sample it, Just make sure you get the best recording of it you can, if you can wait for the vinyl to arrive in the post, wait, its not the greatest sound if you sample from an mp3, Drums are the backbone of most dance music and lots of others, so make them sound good, they are going on throughout the track after all.
A physical way of learning to program is with a drum machine, or failing that an Akai Mpd Contoller (or equivalent) triggering Midi, popping the beats in on the fly, creating patterns without having to stop the sequencer, letting your inspiration flow, i think a drum Machine gives you more freedom, its another piece of kit to learn, but once you do making beats becomes a lot more organic to your work process, (deep). Its true, you'll see.
Experiment, make and break the rules, Nobody can tell you how to do it really, you got to find your own way, be comfortable, then you might have some time left to worry about the Music, Song, Arrangement etc, or maybe jus the next beat.

[hairyarmbutcher]

I don't know how a pro studio might do stuff, but I sometimes layer a lighter kick over a deep one so you can still hear and feel the beat & bass groove.

Or why not just sample a nice kick, let someone else do the hard work, haha.

[Walter Stallworth]

Thanks for all your suggestions...:thumbsup:

[SMOOTH87]

What you want to do is eq out all the frequencies in the kick that gets in the way of the bassline and vice versa. I like to run the drum and the bass into a buss and compress them both together. Eq is the always the 1st step.

[steffenb]

before you eq or compress its always handy to dial in a analyzer , so you can see where the frequencys of your bass or your kick are, so you got a good starting point what to eq and what not ...

then you have to decide wich one gets the ultra low frequencys, your bass or your kick... if you, for example got a snappy kick you dont want it to have a lot of low rumble and it wont probably need it either ;)... so you can highpass a lot of the kick to make room for your bass and vice versa ;)

and like mentioned before, sidechain is your friend :thumbsup:

[wes_d]

before you eq or compress its always handy to dial in a analyzer , so you can see where the frequencys of your bass or your kick are, so you got a good starting point what to eq and what not ...

then you have to decide wich one gets the ultra low frequencys, your bass or your kick... if you, for example got a snappy kick you dont want it to have a lot of low rumble and it wont probably need it either ;)... so you can highpass a lot of the kick to make room for your bass and vice versa ;)

and like mentioned before, sidechain is your friend :thumbsup:

I'll have to agree with using sidechaining - lightly. Too much makes some kind of foreign whump-thump sound that my ears don't like too well, or rather, isn't exactly the sound I'm going for in my tracks. But yeah, since I've discovered sidechaining I've been very much pleased with the separation of my bass line and my kick drums.

Though, I have a question. What kind of tools are good for frequency analysis? I'm curious about this (and have often thought how nice it would be to get a 'reading' of sorts of freqs and their levels.

Thanks,
Wes

[steffenb]

you can get a nice free analyzer here ->

http://www.bluecataudio.com/Products/Product_FreqAnalyst/

or here ->

http://www.voxengo.com/product/SPAN/

[wes_d]

I'm on my way to check them out. Thanks very much.
Wes

[SMOOTH87]

before you eq or compress its always handy to dial in a analyzer , so you can see where the frequencys of your bass or your kick are, so you got a good starting point what to eq and what not ...

then you have to decide wich one gets the ultra low frequencys, your bass or your kick... if you, for example got a snappy kick you dont want it to have a lot of low rumble and it wont probably need it either ;)... so you can highpass a lot of the kick to make room for your bass and vice versa ;)

and like mentioned before, sidechain is your friend :thumbsup:

Using an anlyser is a good idea. I need to get more into the sidechaning.

Question. A lot of cats back in the old days said it best to eq out all the high frequencies in kick. Does anyone feel that this still holds true?

[steffenb]

it depends on what the track needs ... i think there is no "you should always ..." in audio ...

if you want a deepsounding kick that just bumps its not bad to cut out
a lot of the high end ...
if you want to hear the snap of the kick , and/or you need the attack sound of the kick it would not be a good idea to cut the high end ;)


its always about what you want to do with your track :thumbsup:

[semtek]

Using an anlyser is a good idea. I need to get more into the sidechaning.

Question. A lot of cats back in the old days said it best to eq out all the high frequencies in kick. Does anyone feel that this still holds true?

(Greets all, first post here)

Yeah lots of the presence in a kick drum comes from the pink noise in the attack at higher frequencies. However, in order to achieve that throbbing effect of the kick you get on, eg some of the Larry Heard records, this might work. Def worth experimenting, tho I'd use a wide band/low q factor/gentle cut-off on the eq (max 6db/octave).

In response to the overall topic, I'd also recommend bearing the bass/kick issue in mind when programming the drums and the bass. I often look at places where the two sound together in a track, and realise that I don't need the bass there at all, so just lose it. The ear is good at hearing the kick as an implied note even if the bassline is missing. You get me?

[Sal Paradise]

Anything more on Side Chaining? Or is it just one of those things you have to play with until you start to get it? At this point I feel like I am just mashing buttons when I side chain. Don't really know what I am doing with it yet. But I know I need it's benefits.

[steffenb]

Anything more on Side Chaining? Or is it just one of those things you have to play with until you start to get it? At this point I feel like I am just mashing buttons when I side chain. Don't really know what I am doing with it yet. But I know I need it's benefits.

to find out a bit on sidechaining...

programm a kick drum pattern and a bass pattern thats equal to the kick pattern,
take a bass with long sustain ... sidechain and use realy
radical settings on the compressor ... huge ratio and treshold...
start with short attack and short release...
then play around with the attack and realease of the compressor ...
you should immediatly hear whats going on :)

[Sal Paradise]

to find out a bit on sidechaining...

programm a kick drum pattern and a bass pattern thats equal to the kick pattern,
take a bass with long sustain ... sidechain and use realy
radical settings on the compressor ... huge ratio and treshold...
start with short attack and short release...
then play around with the attack and realease of the compressor ...
you should immediatly hear whats going on :)

Thanks. That is basically what this guy in this youtube clip demonstrates on Logic. Sounds like good advise all around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CfWJKO0BJUc

[29hbe82es32]

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[SoundScience]

I like this discussion. Any suggestions on how to tune drums in Live or Logic?