Medical Account of Christs' Crucifixion

[JR JAM]

Since this being Good Friday I thought I would share this with you guys.

Medical Account of Crucifixion
by Dr. C. Truman Davis


About a decade ago, reading Jim Bishop’s "The Day Christ Died", I realized that I had for years taken the Crucifixion more or less for granted — that I had grown callous to its horror by a too easy familiarity with the grim details and a too distant friendship with our Lord. It finally occurred to me that, though a physician, I didn’t even know the actual immediate cause of death.

The Gospel writers don’t help us much on this point, because crucifixion and scourging were so common during their lifetime that they apparently considered a detailed description unnecessary. So we have only the concise words of the Evangelists: "Pilate, having scourged Jesus, delivered Him to them to be crucified—and they crucified Him." I have no competence to discuss the infinite psychic and spiritual suffering of the Incarnate God atoning for the sins of fallen man.

But it seemed to me that as a physician I might pursue the physiological and anatomical aspects of our Lord’s passion in some detail.

What did the body of Jesus of Nazareth actually endure during those hours of torture?

This led me first to a study of the practice of crucifixion itself; that is, torture and execution by fixation to a cross. I am indebted to many who have studied this subject in the past, and especially to a contemporary colleague, Dr. Pierre Barbet, a French surgeon who has done exhaustive historical and experimental research and has written extensively on the subject.

Apparently, the first known practice of crucifixion was by the Persians. Alexander and his generals brought it back to the Mediterranean world— to Egypt and to Carthage.

The Romans apparently learned the practice from the Carthaginians and (as with almost everything the Romans did) rapidly developed a very high degree of efficiency and skill at it. A number of Roman authors (Livy, Cicer, Tacitus) comment on crucifixion, and several innovations, modifications, and variations are described in the ancient literature.

For instance, the upright portion of the cross (or stipes) could have the cross-arm (or patibulum) attached two or three feet below its topiin what we commonly think of as the Latin cross.

The most common form used in our Lord’s day, however, was the Tau cross, shaped like our T. In this cross the patibulum was placed in a notch at the top of the stipes.

There is archeological evidence that it was on this type of cross that Jesus was crucified.

Without any historical or biblical proof, Medieval and Renaissance painters have given us our picture of Christ carrying the entire cross.

But the upright post, or stipes, was generally fixed permanently in the ground at the site of execution and the condemned man was forced to carry the patibulum, weighing about 110 pounds, from the prison to the place of execution.

Many of the painters and most of the sculptors of crucifixion, also show the nails through the palms.

Historical Roman accounts and experimental work have established that the nails were driven between the small bones of the wrists (radial and ulna) and not through the palms. Nails driven through the palms will strip out between the fingers when made to support the weight of the human body.

The misconception may have come about through a misunderstanding of Jesus’ words to Thomas, "Observe my hands." Anatomists, both modern and ancient, have always considered the wrist as part of the hand. A titulus, or small sign, stating the victim’s crime was usually placed on a staff, carried at the front of the procession from the prison, and later nailed to the cross so that it extended above the head.

This sign with its staff nailed to the top of the cross would have given it somewhat the characteristic form of the Latin cross.

But, of course, the physical passion of the Christ began in Gethsemane. Of the many aspects of this initial suffering, the one of greatest physiological interest is the bloody sweat. It is interesting that St. Luke, the physician, is the only one to mention this. He says, "And being in Agony, He prayed the longer. And His sweat became as drops of blood, trickling down upon the ground."

Every ruse (trick) imaginable has been used by modern scholars to explain away this description, apparently under the mistaken impression that this just doesn’t happen.

A great deal of effort could have been saved had the doubters consulted the medical literature. Though very rare, the phenomenon of Hematidrosis, or bloody sweat, is well documented. Under great emotional stress of the kind our Lord suffered, tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can break, thus mixing blood with sweat. This process might well have produced marked weakness and possible shock.

After the arrest in the middle of the night, Jesus was next brought before the Sanhedrin and Caiphus, the High Priest; it is here that the first physical trauma was inflicted. A soldier struck Jesus across the face for remaining silent when questioned by Caiphus. The palace guards then blind-folded Him and mockingly taunted Him to identify them as they each passed by, spat upon Him, and struck Him in the face. In the early morning, battered and bruised, dehydrated, and exhausted from a sleepless night, Jesus is taken across the Praetorium of the Fortress Antonia, the seat of government of the Procurator of Judea, Pontius Pilate. You are, of course, familiar with Pilate’s action in attempting to pass responsibility to Herod Antipas, the Tetrarch of Judea.

Jesus apparently suffered no physical mistreatment at the hands of Herod and was returned to Pilate. It was then, in response to thecries of the mob, that Pilate ordered Bar-Abbas released and condemned Jesus to scourging and crucifixion.

There is much disagreement among authorities about the unusual scourging as a prelude to crucifixion. Most Roman writers from this period do not associate the two.

Many scholars believe that Pilate originally ordered Jesus scourged as his full punishment and that the death sentence by crucifixion came only in response to the taunt by the mob that the Procurator was not properly defending Caesar against this pretender who allegedly claimed to be the King of the Jews.

Preparations for the scourging were carried out when the Prisoner was stripped of His clothing and His hands tied to a post above His head. It is doubtful the Romans would have made any attempt to follow the Jewish law in this matter, but the Jews had an ancient law prohibiting more than forty lashes. The Roman legionnaire steps forward with the flagrum (or flagellum) in his hand. This is a short whip consisting of several heavy, leather thongs with two small balls of lead attached near the ends of each. The heavy whip is brought down with full force again and again across Jesus’ shoulders, back, and legs. At first the thongs cut through the skin only.

Then, as the blows continue, they cut deeper into the subcutaneous tissues, producing first an oozing of blood from the capillaries and veins of the skin, and finally spurting arterial bleeding from vessels in the underlying muscles.

The small balls of lead first produce large, deep bruises which are broken open by subsequent blows.

Finally the skin of the back is hanging in long ribbons and the entire area is an unrecognizable mass of torn, bleeding tissue. When it is determined by the centurion in charge that the prisoner is near death, the beating is finally stopped.

The half-fainting Jesus is then untied and allowed to slump to the stone pavement, wet with His own blood.

The Roman soldiers see a great joke in this provincial Jew claiming to be king. They throw a robe across His shoulders and place a stick in His hand for a scepter.

They still need a crown to make their travesty complete. Flexible branch covered with long thorns (commonly used in bundles for firewood) are plaited into the shape of a crown and this is pressed into His scalp. Again there is copious bleeding, the scalp being one of the most vascular areas of the body.

After mocking Him and striking Him across the face, the soldiers take the stick from His hand and strike Him across the head, driving the thorns deeper into His scalp.

Finally, they tire of their sadistic sport and the robe is torn from His back. Already having adhered to the clots of blood and serum in the wounds, its removal causes excruciating pain just as in the careless removal of a surgical bandage, and almost as though He were again being whipped the wounds once more begin to bleed. In deference to Jewish custom, the Romans return His garments.

The heavy patibulum of the cross is tied across His shoulders, and the procession of the condemned Christ, two thieves, and the execution detail of Roman soldiers headed by a centurion begins its slow journey along the Via Dolorosa.

In spite of His efforts to walk erect, the weight of the heavy wooden beam, together with the shock produced by copious blood loss, is too much. He stumbles and falls. The rough wood of the beam gouges into the lacerated skin and muscles of the shoulders. He tries to rise, but human muscles have been pushed beyond their endurance. The centurion, anxious to get on with the crucifixion, selects a stalwart North African onlooker, Simon of Cyrene, to carry the cross. Jesus follows, still bleeding and sweating the cold, clammy sweat of shock, until the 650 yard journey from the fortress Antonia to Golgotha is finally completed.

Jesus is offered wine mixed with myrrh, a mild analgesic mixture. He refuses to drink. Simon is ordered to place the patibulum on the ground and Jesus quickly thrown backward with His shoulders against the wood.

The legionnaire feels for the depression at the front of the wrist. He drives a heavy, square, wrought-iron nail through the wrist and deep into the wood. Quickly, he moves to the other side and repeats the action being careful not to pull the arms to tightly, but to allow some flexion and movement.

The patibulum is then lifted in place at the top of the stipes and the titulus reading "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews" is nailed in place. The left foot is now pressed backward against the right foot, and with both feet extended, toes down, a nail is driven through the arch of each, leaving the knees moderately flexed.

The Victim is now crucified.

As He slowly sags down with more weight on the nails in the wrists excruciating pain shoots along the fingers and up the arms to explode in the brain—the nails in the writs are putting pressure on the median nerves. As He pushes Himself upward to avoid this stretching torment, He places His full weight on the nail through His feet. Again there is the searing agony of the nail tearing through the nerves between the metatarsal bones of the feet.

At this point, as the arms fatigue, great waves of cramps sweep over the muscles, knotting them in deep,relentless, throbbing pain. With these cramps comes the inability to push Himself upward. Hanging by his arms, the pectoral muscles are paralyzed and the intercostal muscles are unable to act.

Air can be drawn into the lungs, but cannot be exhaled. Jesus fights to raise Himself in order to get even one short breath. Finally, carbon dioxide builds up in the lungs and in the blood stream and the cramps partially subside. Spasmodically, he is able to push Himself upward to exhale and bring in the life-giving oxygen. It was undoubtedly during these periods that He uttered the seven short sentences recorded:

The first, looking down at the Roman soldiers throwing dice for His seamless garment, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."

The second, to the penitent thief, "Today thou shalt be with me in Paradise."

The third, looking down at the terrified, grief-stricken adolescent John—the beloved Apostle—he said, "Behold thy mother." Then, looking to His mother Mary, "Woman behold thy son."

The fourth cry is from the beginning of the 22nd Psalm, "My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?"

Hours of limitless pain, cycles of twisting, joint-rending cramps, intermittent partial asphyxiation, searing pain where tissue is torn from His lacerated back as He moves up and down against the rough timber. Then another agony begins... A terrible crushing pain deep in the chest as the pericardium slowly fills with serum and begins to compress the heart. One remembers again the 22nd Psalm, the 14th verse: "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels."

It is now almost over. The loss of tissue fluids has reached a critical level; the compressed heart is struggling to pump heavy, thick, sluggish blood into the tissue; the tortured lungs are making a frantic effort to gasp in small gulps of air. The markedly dehydrated tissues send their flood of stimuli to the brain.

Jesus gasps His fifth cry, "I thirst." One remembers another verse from the prophetic 22nd Psalm: "My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou has brought me into the dust of death." A sponge soaked in posca, the cheap, sour wine which is the staple drink of the Roman legionaries, is lifted to His lips. He apparently doesn’t take any of the liquid.

The body of Jesus is now in extremes, and He can feel the chill of death creeping through His tissues.

This realization brings out His sixth words, possibly little more than a tortured whisper, "It is finished." His mission of atonement has completed. Finally He can allow his body to die.

With one last surge of strength, he once again presses His torn feet against the nail, straightens His legs, takes a deeper breath, and utters His seventh and last cry, "Father! Into thy hands I commit my spirit."

The rest you know. In order that the Sabbath not be profaned, the Jews asked that the condemned men be dispatched and removed from the crosses.

The common method of ending a crucifixion was by crurifracture, the breaking of the bones of the legs.

This prevented the victim from pushing himself upward; thus the tension could not be relieved from the muscles of the chest and rapid suffocation occurred. The legs of the two thieves were broken, but when the soldiers came to Jesus they saw that this was unnecessary. Apparently to make doubly sure of death, the legionnaire drove his lance through the fifth interspace between the ribs, upward through the pericardium and into the heart. The 34th verse of the 19th chapter of the Gospel according to St. John reports: "And immediately there came out blood and water." That is, there was an escape of water fluid from the sac surrounding the heart, giving postmortem evidence that, Our Lord died not the usual crucifixion death by suffocation, but of heart failure (a broken heart) due to shock and constriction of the heart by fluid in the pericardium.

Thus we have had our glimpse — including the medical evidence — of that epitome of evil which man has exhibited toward Man and toward God.

It has been a terrible sight, and more than enough to leave us despondent and depressed.

How grateful we can be that we have the great sequel in the infinite mercy of God toward man—at once the miracle of the atonement (a tone ment) and the expectation of the triumphant Easter morning.

Dr. C. Truman Davis is a nationally respected Ophthalmologist, vice president of the American Association of Ophthalmology, and an active figure in the Christian schools movement. He is founder and president of the excellent Trinity Christian School in Mesa Arizona, and a trustee of Grove City College.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

It seems that everyone focus is on the crucifixion and don't really grasp the significance. It had to happen in order for saving of man. Had it been known that Jesus would die and rise in the spirit for the sin of man, the enemy would have tried anything to prevent it from happening.

This isn't a day of sorrow and mourning. This is the celebration of the rebirth of Christ and the glory of God.

[Hk]

Disco, U're gonna hate my guts...but what if this event never happened?

Logically, if Jesus (PBUH) died for your sins, then wouldnt that negate personal responsibility?(i.e., one could seemingly go out and commit many horrendous sins and utter, .....'died for my sins'.....

Perhaps its a dubious translation that was......well, I'll stop..... graemlins/bolt.gif

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by Hk:
Disco, U're gonna hate my guts...but what if this event never happened?

Logically, if Jesus (PBUH) died for your sins, then wouldnt that negate personal responsibility?(i.e., one could seemingly go out and commit many horrendous sins and utter, .....'died for my sins'.....
I think that's a philosophocal standpoint most Christians would rather not deal with.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by Hk:
Disco, U're gonna hate my guts...but what if this event never happened?

Logically, if Jesus (PBUH) died for your sins, then wouldnt that negate personal responsibility?(i.e., one could seemingly go out and commit many horrendous sins and utter, .....'died for my sins'.....

Perhaps its a dubious translation that was......well, I'll stop..... graemlins/bolt.gif He died to give us a second chance at life to live. Also Once we've accepted, know and believe in Christ then we will know what it is like to live like him. Our responsibility as Christians is to live like Jesus. If this event never occurred we wouldn't be here. If you believe in the bible read the old testament for history of man.

I won't hate your guts this type of discussion always raises eyebrows and skepticism. My faith in God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Everyone have their own path to what is right to them.

[Hk]

Yes, Ma'am......and no disrespect meant....

I am just often confused how the Prophet is mixed with The Creator. It (God), I believe, stands alone...and there is nothing, NOTHING, that shares in its power!

As It asks, if I wanted to destroy Jesus (pbuh) who could stop me?.....no one, and this clearly shows a distinction between the two. Also, if I read the Old Testament, then my brain would quickly come to the conclusion that God is One and Jesus is not, may It forgive me, God. For why would a God, pray to a God. (impossible, and Jesus--PBUH--did say that he prayed, often!)....

My apologies though, we do each have our own, and I respect having something rather than nothing at all.

May he forgive me for my ignorance, and may U if I have insulted or deameaned U N any way.

Respect.....

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by Hk:
Yes, Ma'am......and no disrespect meant....

I am just often confused how the Prophet is mixed with The Creator. It (God), I believe, stands alone...and there is nothing, NOTHING, that shares in its power!

As It asks, if I wanted to destroy Jesus (pbuh) who could stop me?.....no one, and this clearly shows a distinction between the two. Also, if I read the Old Testament, then my brain would quickly come to the conclusion that God is One and Jesus is not, may It forgive me, God. For why would a God, pray to a God. (impossible, and Jesus--PBUH--did say that he prayed, often!)....

My apologies though, we do each have our own, and I respect having something rather than nothing at all.

May he forgive me for my ignorance, and may U if I have insulted or deameaned U N any way.

Respect..... No disrespect here. I understand your questions and doubts. Jesus is God in the flesh and as crazy as it's sound yes, Jesus is a man that endured trials, tribulations and temptations as a man. He Jesus is a prime example of how god wants us to live. If you read in the new testament Jesus is a connector to God. Can't no one go to God but through Jesus.

You have a right to question, as I said before we all come to a time when we find our truth, wherever it lies.

[TAD]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Can't no one go to God but through Jesus.
Discolady, you have the right to believe anything but this is where the ignorance & arrogance of christianity is at its highest.

why do we need to go through jesus when jesus supposedly lived only 2000 years ago, a very recent period in history. this is not using logic & actually goes against the teachings of christianity. the fathers of the christian church, who incidentally were originally pagans, on many occasions openly admitted that they had borrowed from the past. i've compiled a few extraordinary apologies by some of the founding fathers of christianity as well as some learned philosophers beginning with Tertullian (A.D. 200 ) one of the founding fathers of the christian system of spiritual salvation.

He was originally a pagan, and at one time Presbyter of the Christian church of Carthage, in Africa. The following is a specimen of his manner of reasoning on the evidences of Christianity. He says:

"I find no other means to prove myself to be impudent with success, and happily a fool, than by my contempt of shame; as, for instance-I maintain that the Son of God was born; why am i not ashamed of maintaining such a thing? Why! but because it is itself a shameful thing. I maintain that the Son of God died: well. that is wholly credible because it is monstrously absurd. I maintain that after having been buried, he rose again; and that i take to be absolutely true, because it was manifestly impossible."(On The Flesh Of Christ, ch.v.)

Celsus, the Epicurian philosopher, wrote that:

“The Christian religion contains nothing but what Christians hold in common with heathens; nothing new, or truly great.”

This assertion is fully verified by Justin Martyr, in his apology to the Emperor Adrian, which is one of the most remarkable admissions ever made by a Christian writer. Some exerpts of what he says:

"....and by declaring the Logos, the first begotten of God, or master jesus Christ, to be born of a virgin, without any human mixture, to be crucified & dead, and to have rose again, and ascended into heaven: we say no more in this, than what you say of those whom you style the Sons of Jove(God).............As to the son of God, Called Jesus, should we allow him to be nothing more than man, yet the title of the son of God is very justifiable, upon the account of his wisdom, considering that you have your Mercury in worship, under the title of the Word & Messenger of God."


That Christianity is nothing more than Paganism under a new name has been admitted over & over again by the Fathers of the church, and others.

The early Christian Saints, bishops, and fathers, confessedly adopted the liturgies, rites, ceremonies, and terms of heathenism; making it their boast, that the pagan religion, properly explained really was nothing else than Christianity; that the best & wisest of its professors, in all ages, had been Christians all along; that Christianity was but a name more recently acquired to a religion which had previously existed, and had been known to the Greek philosophers, to Plato, Socrates, and Heraclitus; and that “if the writers of Cicero had been read as they ought to have been, there would have been no occasion for the Chritian scriptures.”

And our Protestant, and most orthodox Christian divines, the best learned on ecclesiastical antiquity, and most entirely persuaded of the truth of the Christian religion, unable to resist or to conflict with the constraining demonstration of the data that prove the absolute sameness & identity of Paganism & Christianity, and unable to point out so much as one single idea or notion, of which they could show that it was peculiar to Christianity, or that Christianity had it, and Paganism had it not, have invented the apology of an hypothesis, that the Pagan religion was typical, and that Crishna, Buddah, Bacchus, Hercules, Adonis, Osiris, Horus, etc. were all of them types and forerunners of the true and real Savior, Christ Jesus. Those who are satisfied with this kind of reasoning are welcome to it.

That the older religions were forerunners to the true Christ is, in my opinion, the highest form of flattery because it really illustrates the deep convictions of the early fathers. they could not dispute the origins of their newly formed religion & continued to pay reverence to that which came before. This is what people today fail to realize because they don't know their history.

St Augustine, one of the Christian fathers:

"The same thing which is now called the Chritian Religion existed among the Ancients. they have begun to call Christian the true religion whcih existed before."

James Bonwick:

"Our love for what is old, our reverence for what our fathers used, makes us keep still in the church, and on the very altar cloths, symbols which would excite the smile of an Oriental, and lead him to wonder why we send missionaries to his land, while cherishing his faith in ours."

Professor Max Muller said it best.

"he who knows only one religion knows none."

(Taken from Bible Myths & Their Parallels In Other Religions by T.W. Doane.)

there are many roads to heaven. biggrinangel.gif

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

As I said before, Everyone finds what they believe is truth. I go straight to an old source based on prophets of God - the bible. So the research and humanization of how we put God in a box is totally unreal. I have what you have and I have the word.

No debate here, I am comfortable in my faith in The Lord and Jesus Christ.

[ April 21, 2003, 09:02 PM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

[TAD]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
As I said before, Everyone finds what they believe is truth. I go straight to an old source based on prophets of God - the bible. So the research and humanization of how we put God in a box is totally unreal. I have what you have and I have the word.

No debate here, I am comfortable in my faith in The Lord and Jesus Christ. so do you believe that a buddhist who's lived a righteous life will inherit the kingdom of heaven if he doesn't recognize jesus the christ as his personal lord & savior?

[JR JAM]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
As I said before, Everyone finds what they believe is truth. I go straight to an old source based on prophets of God - the bible. So the research and humanization of how we put God in a box is totally unreal. I have what you have and I have the word.

No debate here, I am comfortable in my faith in The Lord and Jesus Christ. AMEN!!! graemlins/grinyes.gif

[D J 1 3 8]

Anybody hear that Mel Gibson is making a feature film about Jesus that is gonna be strictly in Latin and Aramaic? He's a radical Catholic who believes that Catholicism should only be practiced in Latin.

[TAD]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
As I said before, Everyone finds what they believe is truth. I go straight to an old source based on prophets of God - the bible. So the research and humanization of how we put God in a box is totally unreal. I have what you have and I have the word.

No debate here, I am comfortable in my faith in The Lord and Jesus Christ. so do you believe that a buddhist who's lived a righteous life will inherit the kingdom of heaven if he doesn't recognize jesus the christ as his personal lord & savior? </font>[/QUOTE]i kind of had the feeling you would avoid this question. this is the question all christians have a real problem with. outwardly, they (christians of good faith) express religious tolerance* yet inwardly they struggle with this inherent contradiction. it's ok. like i said b4 you have the right to believe what you feel helps you find peace. however true peace will come when the veil of prejudice is completely lifted & all humanity will rejoice in harmony.

what's interesting is that when i'm down & out, the first name i call out is jesus. as a frame of reference this is the name i've grown up to know as the bearer of light & truth. as my journey in life continued & the truth began to be unveiled, i realized that it did not matter what name i used. the end result would be the same. in fact a greater peace & understanding overcame me & now i can get used to the idea of calling out Buddah or Crishna or Osiris or Muhammed or Zoroaster. it's all the same to me. no difference because they are one & the same as verified by the Christian Fathers.

i hope i haven't offended you Discolady & to anyone else, i apologize but this is a serious topic that most people would rather leave alone (mostly because of lack of knowledge coupled with undying faith) yet we have 100 wars going on that have every bit to do with religion. when will it end?

* although this may be true, there is always a hint of prejudice. "Everyone finds what 'they' believe is truth" but not quite the truth, implying the need to continue the search, inevitably leading to jesus, the one true savior.

[Bill Blake]

It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Her truth is not hard
It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Gimme the truth!

Listen to the lyric as the negative is shrinkin
It's shrinkin out your life when you decide to change your thinkin
One of the first things we gotta switch around of course
Is Jesus Christ, and him dying on the cross
You're looking at the cross, surrounded in it's mystery
With Jesus on the cross in a, total misery
Now seperate Jesus from the cross so you can see
The truth about the cross, and the cross's history
The cross was created by the Roman government
It's only purpose and use, is cap-i-tal punishment
But Jesus Christ, was all about the revolution
While the cross was used as Jesus Christ's execution
See what if Jesus Christ, was hung upon a tree
Upon every church wall, that's exactly what you'd see
If Jesus Christ, was shot in the head with no respect
We'd all have little gold guns around our neck
If Jesus Christ was killed in electic chair, now get it
You'd be knealing to the electric chair with Jesus, still in it
You gaze upon the cross, and you see the execution
You yell stop the violence but the cross you're still using

It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Her truth is not hard
It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Gimme the truth!

So I say listen, listen, open up your third eye vision
God is not down with religion
Religion they be sellin it, listen up, God is intelligent

Reading of the bible is irrelevant
You gotta look within yourself, not a scripture
KRS-One comes to rearrange the God picture
If you sit and believe, you can acheive
If you sit and accept, you don't know, what's correct
or incorrect, take for instance Adam and Eve
The first two people on the planet, or so you believe
Their first time in heaven kids they had, Cain and Abel
Huh, now let me show you why the story's unstable
According to the story, according to what you believe
There was only Cain, Abel, Adam, and Eve
on the whole planet, now use your intellect
and tell me, what did Cain and Abel do for sex?
Upon the whole planet there was not another
Could it be for sex, heh, they were looking at each other?
Hold up! I thought the church wasn't into that
But wait, still yet, there is another fact
How did the world get populated?
Now tell me if I'm wrong, but obviously Eve had it goin on
Think for a minute, I know it gets notorious
But yo G, check out the chorus

It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Her truth is not hard
It's not natural If it goes against God
It's not factual Gimme the truth!

[Rich Nice]
Yo yo...
Yo bring that back
I wanna say something on this BlastMaster session
Yo this is Rich Nice
You brothers gotta stop treating these hoes like nice girls
and these nice girls like hoes

[KRS-One]
True indeed, I'd like to welcome the rebirth of the Goddess
Word up it's all about knowledge of self
Yo Busta Rhymes, why don't you take the session over from here

[TAD]

teach!!! hail.gif

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
As I said before, Everyone finds what they believe is truth. I go straight to an old source based on prophets of God - the bible. So the research and humanization of how we put God in a box is totally unreal. I have what you have and I have the word.

No debate here, I am comfortable in my faith in The Lord and Jesus Christ. so do you believe that a buddhist who's lived a righteous life will inherit the kingdom of heaven if he doesn't recognize jesus the christ as his personal lord & savior? </font>[/QUOTE]i kind of had the feeling you would avoid this question. this is the question all christians have a real problem with. outwardly, they (christians of good faith) express religious tolerance* yet inwardly they struggle with this inherent contradiction. it's ok. like i said b4 you have the right to believe what you feel helps you find peace. however true peace will come when the veil of prejudice is completely lifted & all humanity will rejoice in harmony.

what's interesting is that when i'm down & out, the first name i call out is jesus. as a frame of reference this is the name i've grown up to know as the bearer of light & truth. as my journey in life continued & the truth began to be unveiled, i realized that it did not matter what name i used. the end result would be the same. in fact a greater peace & understanding overcame me & now i can get used to the idea of calling out Buddah or Crishna or Osiris or Muhammed or Zoroaster. it's all the same to me. no difference because they are one & the same as verified by the Christian Fathers.

i hope i haven't offended you Discolady & to anyone else, i apologize but this is a serious topic that most people would rather leave alone (mostly because of lack of knowledge coupled with undying faith) yet we have 100 wars going on that have every bit to do with religion. when will it end?

* although this may be true, there is always a hint of prejudice. "Everyone finds what 'they' believe is truth" but not quite the truth, implying the need to continue the search, inevitably leading to jesus, the one true savior. </font>[/QUOTE]Um, Cosmic Sweetie I need not to prove to you or uncover the "Real" Truth to make you understand. As a christian, I do not debate about the Spiritual Realm and what people believe. As a matter of fact I just logged on within the last 10 minutes.

If you understood my statement, I follow what I think is truth and I am not to judge others that decide to follow other religions. What works for you works for you. God is God and He is the only one I serve. I cannot show you proof of him, Truth is revealed to you when you are ready to hear it. So My truth is in the Word and say what you will, this topic is over.

No disrespect to the Buddhists, Hindu, Muslim and so on. I can't judge them. Prejudice is being ignorant of the fact that everyone is going to hell and I am going because I am a good christian. I am here to search out my own destiny in life and to serve a God that has been truly good to me. So if Buddha or any other god has been good to you then go with that. I do not dislike you or am bothered by what you believe. The only way to find out how to get to heaven is to wait until we meet our maker. So if you are looking for answers to your questions, I advise you to go straight to the source ;) What source? Only you know where it is.

The question is, Why are people so bothered by Christianity? Why do they question Christian beliefs and if another religion teaches the same thing then it's truth?

[ April 22, 2003, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

[Cheddar]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
teach!!! hail.gif Nahh man, it has been TAUGHT.

GMan...frame this one up.

[Cheddar]

With utmost respect to Discolady (had to pre-empt that)...
I really hate these kind of conversations because they seldomly end with agreement and almost always end with "I believe this and that is that, regardless if you can prove that the earth is really a triangle".

mad1.gif

[Hk]

1343....R u just looking for agreement with these comments......that's very alturistic....

I fail to understand, Disco, and any other, how you accept English as an appropriate language to translate a Book from God in......Englsih is Latin and Greek...and if you know about language, especially Aramic languages....there's no way that the real Truth has been held on to with these crummy languages its been interpreted under. That's why they keep revising it....and revising it..and...

English, let alone Latin...wasnt even concieved of during this time.....(why not try and learn a African language, U'd be closer to the mark, in my estimate.....)

But yes, 2 each his/her own....

[TAD]

Originally posted by Hk:
1343....R u just looking for agreement with these comments......that's very alturistic....

I fail to understand, Disco, and any other, how you accept English as an appropriate language to translate a Book from God in......Englsih is Latin and Greek...and if you know about language, especially Aramic languages....there's no way that the real Truth has been held on to with these crummy languages its been interpreted under. That's why they keep revising it....and revising it..and...

English, let alone Latin...wasnt even concieved of during this time.....(why not try and learn a African language, U'd be closer to the mark, in my estimate.....)

But yes, 2 each his/her own.... something like 2/3 of the greek language does not have indo-european roots. eveidently it's a mystery but i know a hell of a lot of words in certain african languages that sound very greek.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Here is a link to various laws in the Bible. A book alot of people profess to live by. But do they really..Im 100 % sure they dont. If they did, there would be very few days of the month in which they could lay down with their wife, since she is considered unclean so many days of the month.

Laws of the bIBLE (http://www.biblebabble.com/laws.htm)

[Mack-Williams]

From my understand of the Bible Jesus death was the end of the mosiac law and the begining of the Christian way of life. He gave the ultimate sacifice his perfect body forgive of our sins. So most of those laws in the old testment aren't relevant anymore, but some you can still abibe by like not stealing, etc,etc.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
From my understand of the Bible Jesus death was the end of the mosiac law and the begining of the Christian way of life. He gave the ultimate sacifice his perfect body forgive of our sins. So most of those laws in the old testment aren't relevant anymore, but some you can still abibe by like not stealing, etc,etc. From my understanding I see that stated nowhere in the Bible. The second half of the Old testament prophesizes about Jesus. Why have all these strict laws i.e food laws, and then say forget them.. you are a Christian now?

[Monny JcIntosh]

Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:

From my understanding I see that stated nowhere in the Bible. The second half of the Old testament prophesizes about Jesus. Why have all these strict laws i.e food laws, and then say forget them.. you are a Christian now? Jesus says words to the effect of "All begins anew with me" somewhere in the New Testament. It's largely taken as a break with the Jewish tradition of acting in accordance with the law so's to introduce instead the specifically Christian concept of acting out of love. It's all in Romans or something, definitely St. Paul, which is kind of ironic seeing as most "new age" Christians profess some "real" Christianity that dismisses St. Paul as an interpolation.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:

From my understanding I see that stated nowhere in the Bible. The second half of the Old testament prophesizes about Jesus. Why have all these strict laws i.e food laws, and then say forget them.. you are a Christian now? Jesus says words to the effect of "All begins anew with me" somewhere in the New Testament. It's largely taken as a break with the Jewish tradition of acting in accordance with the law so's to introduce instead the specifically Christian concept of acting out of love. It's all in Romans or something, definitely St. Paul, which is kind of ironic seeing as most "new age" Christians profess some "real" Christianity that dismisses St. Paul as an interpolation. </font>[/QUOTE]I can't believe that that one line would mean that, unless of course you wanted it too. I mean how are you to know which laws are in effect and which ones arent. It seems to me that when people dont want it to effect them , they say the law was erased. When they want to judge someone else or their lifestyle they say it is an abomination to God. I just don't believe God would be that confusing.
Also by that logic, Jesus was chowing down on some baby back ribs and lobster dinners.

[Monny JcIntosh]

The idea is that you act out of love for God. If there is love in your heart then you're OK. That's the general interpretation of the line, anyway.

[Mack-Williams]

Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
From my understand of the Bible Jesus death was the end of the mosiac law and the begining of the Christian way of life. He gave the ultimate sacifice his perfect body forgive of our sins. So most of those laws in the old testment aren't relevant anymore, but some you can still abibe by like not stealing, etc,etc. From my understanding I see that stated nowhere in the Bible. The second half of the Old testament prophesizes about Jesus. Why have all these strict laws i.e food laws, and then say forget them.. you are a Christian now?

I have the information right here. To much to write I could scan it and e-mail it to you if you are really interested were my point of view comes from. The basis in a whole comes from Jerimiah 31: 31-34 where God fortold a new covenant that would not be like the Law covenant which Israel broke. Jesus validated this at Luke 22:20 were he says, "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf. I could get more in depth, but it would be like a big project.

[JR JAM]

Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
From my understanding I see that stated nowhere in the Bible. The second half of the Old testament prophesizes about Jesus. Why have all these strict laws i.e food laws, and then say forget them.. you are a Christian now?And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He shall bruise and tread your head under foot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel(Genesis 3:15).
Hey Timmy this is one of first prophecies about Jesus Christ.
Here are a couple of scriptures concerning Jesus and the law(commandments):

Romans 7:4
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.


Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.


Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

[Wild i]

Okay, I'm finally gonna stick my nose in it.

I am by no means a Bible scholar. Then again, I don't think you need to be a scholar to understand the Bible. You do, however, have to excercise some common sense.

I have not yet read the Old Testament cover-to-cover, however, I believe that God has only 10 rules or "commandments."

I have read the New Testament several times and have come to the conclusion that everything on importance is in the first four books, which are the actual acts of Jesus. Everything after that is the work of the disciples and others.

As far as believers of the old vs the new Testament, I believe that the military regulation applies: In the absence of further instruction, follow your last order. So, in other words, if Jesus didn't specifically address it, the rule has not changed. Of course this puts me ass-out on the sexual orientation tip, but I'm still working that out. I know there's a loophole somewhere. I just haven't found it yet.

For all: It's a poor excuse for a religion that cannot stand up to debate. Arguing one's religion should strengthen one's belief. If it doesn't, perhaps one should re-evaluate one's beliefs.

[TAD]

Originally posted by JR JAM:
Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." jesus is also referred to as "the hung". his crucifixion is highly unlikely.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by JR JAM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
From my understanding I see that stated nowhere in the Bible. The second half of the Old testament prophesizes about Jesus. Why have all these strict laws i.e food laws, and then say forget them.. you are a Christian now?And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He shall bruise and tread your head under foot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel(Genesis 3:15).
Hey Timmy this is one of first prophecies about Jesus Christ.
Here are a couple of scriptures concerning Jesus and the law(commandments):

Romans 7:4
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.


Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.


Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." </font>[/QUOTE]So which laws are covered and which ones arent.

[Hk]

(take on the big project if you feel you're conveying the truth)

Actually, I believe it false and I'll substantiate the claim (based on what I believe of course).

Jesus, May The All Wise send Peace and Blessings upon his soul, came to reknew, not destroy the Mosaic Law, as did each and every Prophet and/or Messenger before them. Why is that so difficult to believe, do you think all the Prophets were Christian/Muslim/Jew......? The thread which makes them brothers is THE TRUTH, not culture?

Jesus, PBUH, said that they're would come another after me.....(didnt he)...

No human lives up to anything at 100%, that's not how we're designed. If so, we couldnt learn, we couldnt obtain wisdom or develop. Look at your own belief and ask yourself the same question?

As far as African languages.....Amharic is not one of these my friend, and history and even the Greeks will admit that they took from Africa.....(why even the word Africa is Greek)....The Greek civilization is a new child compared to many other culters---but its the Western toxin that keeps many from witnessing all of the civilizations before this time.

Universal Quote:

"'Arafa Nafsah faqad 'arafa rabbah"

He who knows himself, knows his Lord.

(humbly submitted)

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by Wild i:
Okay, I'm finally gonna stick my nose in it.

I am by no means a Bible scholar. Then again, I don't think you need to be a scholar to understand the Bible. You do, however, have to excercise some common sense.

I have not yet read the Old Testament cover-to-cover, however, I believe that God has only 10 rules or "commandments."


I have read the New Testament several times and have come to the conclusion that everything on importance is in the first four books, which are the actual acts of Jesus. Everything after that is the work of the disciples and others.

As far as believers of the old vs the new Testament, I believe that the military regulation applies: In the absence of further instruction, follow your last order. So, in other words, if Jesus didn't specifically address it, the rule has not changed. Of course this puts me ass-out on the sexual orientation tip, but I'm still working that out. I know there's a loophole somewhere. I just haven't found it yet.

For all: It's a poor excuse for a religion that cannot stand up to debate. Arguing one's religion should strengthen one's belief. If it doesn't, perhaps one should re-evaluate one's beliefs. Actually WI, there is no law in the Bible forbidding female with female...Haha,,,so you know men wrote it

[ April 23, 2003, 02:17 PM: Message edited by: DJ Timmy Richardson ]

[Hk]

I nned to stay on focus with the topic.....

What about the part in the Biblos in which Jesus (pbuh) attempts to tell his followers that he was not dead, and tried to prove it by eating Bread and drinking water?......Yet, and this is paraphrased, "they were too joyus to see me"....

Has that been omitted?

[Mack-Williams]

Originally posted by Hk:
I nned to stay on focus with the topic.....

What about the part in the Biblos in which Jesus (pbuh) attempts to tell his followers that he was not dead, and tried to prove it by eating Bread and drinking water?......Yet, and this is paraphrased, "they were too joyus to see me"....

Has that been omitted? I believe he was proving to him that he raised from the dead in fulfillment of prophecy that was written in the old testment. I am trying to verify which book it was in.

[ April 23, 2003, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Mack-Williams ]

[TAD]

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
The idea is that you act out of love for God. If there is love in your heart then you're OK. That's the general interpretation of the line, anyway. but that's not a new idea. jesus taught nothing new so it can't be revolutionary thinking. he was simply repeating what others had echoed for thousands of years.

[Hk]

I'd actually like to say, but I am not certain as to the exact location.....

to my fuzzy, way-fuzzy memory its Matthew ??:26 (but I am not certain, again).....

Oh, its in there, or it was...

[Hk]

Correct C-twin....

God is One, therefore his Message is one also.
(Humans are just smart enough to argue over culture, or their favorite Prophet.....but its a brotherhood, exactly as the human species is, all from One....but again, we're just too smart to get it!)

:(

[Wild i]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
The idea is that you act out of love for God. If there is love in your heart then you're OK. That's the general interpretation of the line, anyway. but that's not a new idea. jesus taught nothing new so it can't be revolutionary thinking. he was simply repeating what others had echoed for thousands of years. </font>[/QUOTE]Now I know this is not true. In many instances did Jesus say "In the old way you were taught {thus and such}, but I tell you now {this, that and the other}." The instance of this that most readily comes to mind is when He said, "In the old way you were taught and eye for an eye, but I tell you now that if your enemy smite you, turn the other cheek so that he may smite that one too."

[ April 23, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Wild i ]

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by Wild i:
Okay, I'm finally gonna stick my nose in it.

I am by no means a Bible scholar. Then again, I don't think you need to be a scholar to understand the Bible. You do, however, have to excercise some common sense.

I have not yet read the Old Testament cover-to-cover, however, I believe that God has only 10 rules or "commandments."


I have read the New Testament several times and have come to the conclusion that everything on importance is in the first four books, which are the actual acts of Jesus. Everything after that is the work of the disciples and others.

As far as believers of the old vs the new Testament, I believe that the military regulation applies: In the absence of further instruction, follow your last order. So, in other words, if Jesus didn't specifically address it, the rule has not changed. Of course this puts me ass-out on the sexual orientation tip, but I'm still working that out. I know there's a loophole somewhere. I just haven't found it yet.

For all: It's a poor excuse for a religion that cannot stand up to debate. Arguing one's religion should strengthen one's belief. If it doesn't, perhaps one should re-evaluate one's beliefs.


Actually WI, there is no law in the Bible forbidding female with female...Haha,,,so you know men wrote it

[TAD]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
From my understand of the Bible Jesus death was the end of the mosiac law and the begining of the Christian way of life. He gave the ultimate sacifice his perfect body forgive of our sins. So most of those laws in the old testment aren't relevant anymore, but some you can still abibe by like not stealing, etc,etc. From my understanding I see that stated nowhere in the Bible. The second half of the Old testament prophesizes about Jesus. Why have all these strict laws i.e food laws, and then say forget them.. you are a Christian now?

I have the information right here. To much to write I could scan it and e-mail it to you if you are really interested were my point of view comes from. The basis in a whole comes from Jerimiah 31: 31-34 where God fortold a new covenant that would not be like the Law covenant which Israel broke. Jesus validated this at Luke 22:20 were he says, "This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf. I could get more in depth, but it would be like a big project. </font>there is no proof that jesus said any of those things or that he even existed. there are no writings outside of the synoptic gospels that mention jesus. nowehere. also these gospels were written almost two centuries after christ by people that were unfamiliar with the events & the geography of the region.

..."there is no evidence of the existence of the Gospel of Matthew, in it's present form, until the year 173 A.D.. It is at this time, also, that it is ascribed to Matthew by, Apollinaris, Bishop of Hieropolis."

"the Gospel according to Luke is believed to come next, in chronological order, to that of Matthew, and to have been written some fifteen or twenty years after it. The author was a foreigner, as his writings plainly show that he was far removed from the events which he records.
In writing his gospel, the author made use of that of Matthew, the Gospel of the Hebrews, and Marcion's Gospel. He must have had, also, still other sources, as there are parables peculiar to it, which are not found in them. Among these...."Prodigal Son," and the "Good Samaritan." Other parables peculiar to it are that of the two debtors; the friend borrowing bread at night; the rich mans barns; Dives & Lazarus; the lost piece of silver; the unjust steward; the Pharisee & the Publican.
..."Perhaps these stories were delivered to him orally and perhaps he is the author of them, we shall never know. The foundation of the legends however, undoubtedly came from the "certain scriptures" of the Essenes in Egypt. The principal object which the writer of this gospel had in view was to reconcile Paulinism and the more Jewish forms of Christianity."

Bishop Faustus on the authenticity of the New Testament:

"It is certain that the New Testament was not written by Christ himself, nor by his apostles, but a long while after them, by some unknown persons who, lest they should not be credited when they wrote of affairs they were little aquainted with, affixed to their works the names of the apostles, or of such as were supposed to have been their companions, asserting that what they had written themselves, was written according to these persons to whom they ascribed it." (Faust lib. 2. Quoted by Rev. R. Taylor: Diegesis, p. 114)

What had been said to have been done in India was said by these pious forgers to have been done in Palestine; the change of names & places, with the mixing up of various sketches of the Egyptian, Persian, greek & Roman mythology, was all that was necessary. They had an abundance of material & with it they built. The foundation upon which they built was undoubtedly the "Scriptures," or Diegesis, of the Essenes in Alexandria in Egypt, which fact led Eusebius, the ecclesiastical historian-"without whom," says Tillement, "we should scarce have had any knowledge of the history of the first ages of Christianity, or of the authors who wrote in that time"-to say that the sacred writings used by this sect were none other than "Our Gospels."

(Taken From Bible Myths)

[JR JAM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
So which laws are covered and which ones arent.

This applies to all of them. The bible states that if you break one law you broken them all.
James 2:10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by JR JAM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
So which laws are covered and which ones arent.

This applies to all of them. The bible states that if you break one law you broken them all.
James 2:10For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. Yes but the argument is that the laws were expunged, because Christ said so

[JR JAM]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hk:
I nned to stay on focus with the topic.....

What about the part in the Biblos in which Jesus (pbuh) attempts to tell his followers that he was not dead, and tried to prove it by eating Bread and drinking water?......Yet, and this is paraphrased, "they were too joyus to see me"....

Has that been omitted? I believe he was proving to him that he raised from the dead in fulfillment of prophecy that was written in the old testment. I am trying to verify which book it was in. </font>[/QUOTE]Luke 24

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

[JR JAM]

Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
Yes but the argument is that the laws were expunged, because Christ said so Jesus never said the laws were expunged. This is what he said:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by JR JAM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
Yes but the argument is that the laws were expunged, because Christ said so Jesus never said the laws were expunged. This is what he said:
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. </font>[/QUOTE]I know that..That is the point that I am trying to get across. Thanks for those lines. The yexplain alot. But I am sure there will be a way to twist it into something he clearly doesnt say.

[Monny JcIntosh]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
The idea is that you act out of love for God. If there is love in your heart then you're OK. That's the general interpretation of the line, anyway. but that's not a new idea. jesus taught nothing new so it can't be revolutionary thinking. he was simply repeating what others had echoed for thousands of years. </font>[/QUOTE]Sure, but it's what distinguishes the New from the Old Testament. You asked above, why have all those old laws? Well, they're the Judaic (sp?) religion. Maybe the New Testament is all old news from the East and Greece, I'm not fussed - I'm not religious. As for various bits being interpolated, historical accuracy is kind of beside the point. The important question is what makes sense of the Christian message? I'd say the key to it is the Pauline insistence of love - precisely what many people would like to discard as spurious.

[Hk]

ahhh, thanks Mr. Jam...

Tis proves my entire point!

[Wild i]

Did George Washington chop down a cherry tree, then confess it to his father? Pundits say no, it never happened, but the lesson in it -- to remain honest and true even when you know you have done wrong and punishment is forthcoming -- is no less valid. The Bible is full of allegories and parables. One is to glean from it lessons on how to live. To hold the Bible to literal translation is, in my opinion, the work of small minds and even smaller hearts.

As for Jesus not being the writer of the Bible, neither was Plato the writer of "The Republic." Socrates wrote "The Republic" based on Plato's teachings. Does that invalidate the book or authorship? I don't remember authorship of the New Testament ever being attributed to Jesus. Please provide the cite.

Contrary to popular belief, the New Testament does not supplant the old, except in cases where specific mention is made by Jesus of a change in [moral] law. Jesus was sent because people were not following the law of God. Clarifications were made. Changes were made, but the law of God remained in tact for the most part.

One more thing, denying the existence of Jesus is like denying the Holacaust... It's just plain ignorance. Jesus, or a Jesus-like figure appears in almost every culture on the planet. Jesus is recognized as a prophet in Islam. Read the Koran, a book written around 500 AD. I see the denial as a justification of beliefs in opposition AND it is, again, in my opinion, a justification without basis and therefore without merit.

[ April 24, 2003, 06:28 AM: Message edited by: Wild i ]

[Mack-Williams]

I believe God is the writer of the Bible and he used his spirit to inspire the Bible writers. Acts 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired of God and benefical for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness. If it wasn't do you think it would have survived through all the countless times people have tried to stop the reading of it.

[JR JAM]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
I believe God is the writer of the Bible and he used his spirit to inspire the Bible writers. Acts 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired of God and benefical for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness. If it wasn't do you think it would have survived through all the countless times people have tried to stop the reading of it. Yo Mack its 2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I get what ya sayin. I think I 've seen you in the building I work at 225 n Michigan.

[Mack-Williams]

Originally posted by JR JAM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
I believe God is the writer of the Bible and he used his spirit to inspire the Bible writers. Acts 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired of God and benefical for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness. If it wasn't do you think it would have survived through all the countless times people have tried to stop the reading of it. Yo Mack its 2 Timothy 3:16
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I get what ya sayin. I think I 've seen you in the building I work at 225 n Michigan. </font>[/QUOTE]Right that is 2 Timothy 3:16. Yeah you probably have seen me in pedway around that way. I work in the 303 E. Wacker Building.

[TAD]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
I believe God is the writer of the Bible and he used his spirit to inspire the Bible writers. Acts 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired of God and benefical for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness. If it wasn't do you think it would have survived through all the countless times people have tried to stop the reading of it. good question. there is a reason the bible survived this long, but more importantly there is a reason why the religion prospered.

a lot of artifacts from ancient times are still with us, stuff that's older than the bible. the egyptian book of the dead for example is the oldest bible in the world. it is still available.

i don't have time to get into detail. i ahve to come back to this. three major events. the essenes disappearance, the death of Hypatia & the cruesades are some reasons why christianity flourished, not because some say it was written by god. that's a belief & is not factual. certianly we are all inspired by god when we produce things that are of great value to society. nobody can say that they were never inspired by god.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by JR JAM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
From my understanding I see that stated nowhere in the Bible. The second half of the Old testament prophesizes about Jesus. Why have all these strict laws i.e food laws, and then say forget them.. you are a Christian now?And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; He shall bruise and tread your head under foot, and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel(Genesis 3:15).
Hey Timmy this is one of first prophecies about Jesus Christ.
Here are a couple of scriptures concerning Jesus and the law(commandments):

Romans 7:4
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God.

Romans 8:2
because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death.


Romans 10:4
Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.


Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." </font>[/QUOTE]The old law were rules that were broken and to pay for them you had to offer a sacraficial lamb. So God made a new convenent with man so that not only you have the old laws to follow but the holy spirit to lead you to do what is right but only by faith you can inherit the kingdom of God. So following moral laws and having a good heart according to the bible isn't enough because many times man fall by the wayside because of his human ways. Now, it doesn't mean that we are now perfect but we have more to learn about ourselves and spirituality to obtain what is right. In order to know God, you must be spiritual connected to him. In addition you must accept Jesus as your Savior and life by faith in him, the Father and the Holy Spirit.

Once again I am not saying that other religions are going to hell, I am just stating that to know is to know. You will know what is right by following the path your heart leads you truthfully.

I am sure this really gonna cause more contorversy but this is what I have been studying. Until I hear different I will continue to live by what I believe.

[ April 24, 2003, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

[Mack-Williams]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
I believe God is the writer of the Bible and he used his spirit to inspire the Bible writers. Acts 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired of God and benefical for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness. If it wasn't do you think it would have survived through all the countless times people have tried to stop the reading of it. good question. there is a reason the bible survived this long, but more importantly there is a reason why the religion prospered.

a lot of artifacts from ancient times are still with us, stuff that's older than the bible. the egyptian book of the dead for example is the oldest bible in the world. it is still available.

i don't have time to get into detail. i ahve to come back to this. three major events. the essenes disappearance, the death of Hypatia & the cruesades are some reasons why christianity flourished, not because some say it was written by god. that's a belief & is not factual. certianly we are all inspired by god when we produce things that are of great value to society. nobody can say that they were never inspired by god. </font>[/QUOTE]Well many people died because of their belief in the Bible, no one died because they believed in the Egyptian book. Many Christians were killed and persecuted in the the 1st through the 10 century c.e. because of their faith and belief in the Bible. Would you risk your life for something that is not true? They witnessed something at that time that gave them faith in Christ with the things that they heard or the mircles that they saw him perform. Yes the persecution of first century christian is well documented throughout history. Cosmic you have to look also at the many prophecies in the Bible that were prophecied and fulfilled. Many of these were told long before events actually happened. The book of Daniel is a good example. Wish I had more time to get into this.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
I believe God is the writer of the Bible and he used his spirit to inspire the Bible writers. Acts 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired of God and benefical for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness. If it wasn't do you think it would have survived through all the countless times people have tried to stop the reading of it. good question. there is a reason the bible survived this long, but more importantly there is a reason why the religion prospered.

a lot of artifacts from ancient times are still with us, stuff that's older than the bible. the egyptian book of the dead for example is the oldest bible in the world. it is still available.

i don't have time to get into detail. i ahve to come back to this. three major events. the essenes disappearance, the death of Hypatia & the cruesades are some reasons why christianity flourished, not because some say it was written by god. that's a belief & is not factual. certianly we are all inspired by god when we produce things that are of great value to society. nobody can say that they were never inspired by god. </font>[/QUOTE]Well many people died because of their belief in the Bible, no one died because they believed in the Egyptian book. Many Christians were killed and persecuted in the the 1st through the 10 century c.e. because of their faith and belief in the Bible. Would you risk your life for something that is not true? They witnessed something at that time that gave them faith in Christ with the things that they heard or the mircles that they saw him perform. Yes the persecution of first century christian is well documented throughout history. Cosmic you have to look also at the many prophecies in the Bible that were prophecied and fulfilled. Many of these were told long before events actually happened. The book of Daniel is a good example. Wish I had more time to get into this. </font>[/QUOTE]I must ask this question again. Why are christians persecuted for their beliefs in the bible and no one else is not? There is something powerful yet truthful in the bible. People hate what they do not understand and is threatened by it. So once again, why is this thread so long about something that is fictional? Why is the bible scrutinized? Why aren't we questioning other ancient religions?

And to answer the question about dying for the belief in God, Jesus and the bible, Yes, I will die for anything I truly believe in. What is the point to believe in something that you are willing to give up in order to live? What is the point in living, if you cannot live for what you truly believe in? That goes for religion, family, civil rights and so on. I'd rather go down leaving my mark by not living like a coward. Death is inevitable, but life should be fulfilling not docile.

[TAD]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
Well many people died because of their belief in the Bible, no one died because they believed in the Egyptian book. Many Christians were killed and persecuted in the the 1st through the 10 century c.e. because of their faith and belief in the Bible. Would you risk your life for something that is not true? They witnessed something at that time that gave them faith in Christ with the things that they heard or the mircles that they saw him perform. Yes the persecution of first century christian is well documented throughout history. Cosmic you have to look also at the many prophecies in the Bible that were prophecied and fulfilled. Many of these were told long before events actually happened. The book of Daniel is a good example. Wish I had more time to get into this. actually the egyptians were pagans & were dealt with severely. do a search on Hypatia, a genius, a mathematician, a philosopher, an educator, a Black woman. she was killed & dragged through the streets and then they scraped off her skin with shells & burned the remains. this was done by an angry mob of Christians & was a pivotal moment in histroy. the death blow to free thought was struck & a period of darkness commenced.

christians have been persecuting non christians & vece versa from time immemorial. this is nothing new.

concerning prophecies, most are older stories re-interpreted, myths usually finding their origins in the heavens, the constellations, the natural elements, the animals, all things that were of great wonder, power & astonishment to early man. the bible is a very corrupted version of ancient texts that are themselves replete with allegories that one can never conclusively know their true origin or meaning.

[Mack-Williams]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
Well many people died because of their belief in the Bible, no one died because they believed in the Egyptian book. Many Christians were killed and persecuted in the the 1st through the 10 century c.e. because of their faith and belief in the Bible. Would you risk your life for something that is not true? They witnessed something at that time that gave them faith in Christ with the things that they heard or the mircles that they saw him perform. Yes the persecution of first century christian is well documented throughout history. Cosmic you have to look also at the many prophecies in the Bible that were prophecied and fulfilled. Many of these were told long before events actually happened. The book of Daniel is a good example. Wish I had more time to get into this. actually the egyptians were pagans & were dealt with severely. do a search on Hypatia, a genius, a mathematician, a philosopher, an educator, a Black woman. she was killed & dragged through the streets and then they scraped off her skin with shells & burned the remains. this was done by an angry mob of Christians & was a pivotal moment in histroy. the death blow to free thought was struck & a period of darkness commenced.

christians have been persecuting non christians & vece versa from time immemorial. this is nothing new.

concerning prophecies, most are older stories re-interpreted, myths usually finding their origins in the heavens, the constellations, the natural elements, the animals, all things that were of great wonder, power & astonishment to early man. the bible is a very corrupted version of ancient texts that are themselves replete with allegories that one can never conclusively know their true origin or meaning. </font>[/QUOTE]I will put the time in on this one. Get back in a few.

[TAD]

Constantine one of the founding fathers of Christianity murdered members of his family. WANTED (http://www.fossilizedcustoms.com/Constantine.htm)
MURDERER (http://www.ga.k12.pa.us/academics/MS/8th/romanhis/Forum/1999/jimk/reign.htm)

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
I believe God is the writer of the Bible and he used his spirit to inspire the Bible writers. Acts 3:16, "All Scripture is inspired of God and benefical for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness. If it wasn't do you think it would have survived through all the countless times people have tried to stop the reading of it. good question. there is a reason the bible survived this long, but more importantly there is a reason why the religion prospered.

a lot of artifacts from ancient times are still with us, stuff that's older than the bible. the egyptian book of the dead for example is the oldest bible in the world. it is still available.

i don't have time to get into detail. i ahve to come back to this. three major events. the essenes disappearance, the death of Hypatia & the cruesades are some reasons why christianity flourished, not because some say it was written by god. that's a belief & is not factual. certianly we are all inspired by god when we produce things that are of great value to society. nobody can say that they were never inspired by god. </font>[/QUOTE]Well many people died because of their belief in the Bible, no one died because they believed in the Egyptian book. Many Christians were killed and persecuted in the the 1st through the 10 century c.e. because of their faith and belief in the Bible. Would you risk your life for something that is not true? They witnessed something at that time that gave them faith in Christ with the things that they heard or the mircles that they saw him perform. Yes the persecution of first century christian is well documented throughout history. Cosmic you have to look also at the many prophecies in the Bible that were prophecied and fulfilled. Many of these were told long before events actually happened. The book of Daniel is a good example. Wish I had more time to get into this. </font>[/QUOTE]I must ask this question again. Why are christians persecuted for their beliefs in the bible and no one else is not? There is something powerful yet truthful in the bible. People hate what they do not understand and is threatened by it. So once again, why is this thread so long about something that is fictional? Why is the bible scrutinized? Why aren't we questioning other ancient religions?

And to answer the question about dying for the belief in God, Jesus and the bible, Yes, I will die for anything I truly believe in. What is the point to believe in something that you are willing to give up in order to live? What is the point in living, if you cannot live for what you truly believe in? That goes for religion, family, civil rights and so on. I'd rather go down leaving my mark by not living like a coward. Death is inevitable, but life should be fulfilling not docile. </font>[/QUOTE]All religions are scrutinized at one point or another..There are so many types of Christianity, how are you to know which is the right one? Some believe in things like Purgatory, others don't. Some believe in Christmas and other so-called religious holidays. Others don't. I question things that don't make sense to me. Like how can 4000 years befroe Christ is on Earth, we have these laws stating certain things are unclean, and then we he arrives they are now clean. It boggles the mind how people interpret things the way they interpret them.