Should circumcision be banned? [Archive]

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05-26-2003, 06:10 AM

I saw this topic on another board and it went six pages deep. I'm curious to know what some of ya'll think about this topic. Should it be banned? If so, why? If not, why not? BTW, this applies to male or female circumcision.

[ May 26, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Albert D. ]

JMJ

05-26-2003, 06:12 AM

Originally posted by Albert D.:
I saw this topic on another board and it went six pages deep. I'm curious to know what some of ya'll think about this topic. Should it be banned? If so, why? If not, why not? I think you should be banned. Just peel back the skin and kiss it....JMJ biggrinangel.gif

05-26-2003, 06:14 AM

AR15firing.gif JMJ

Jacques de Doozu

05-26-2003, 06:59 AM

male, female or both? i saw a documentary on female circumsision not too long ago, very tricky subject. it's very deep within the culture. folks tend to look at this way too 'etnocentered' (hope this is a word). not saying i agree with these practices, but again, very tricky...

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-26-2003, 09:32 AM

For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons.

I don't think it should be banned, I had a cousin that kept getting infections from her boyfriend (not std's) she went to the doctor and the doctor told her that because her mate wasn't circumsized, she would keep getting infections because we wasn't keeping his stuff clean. That was weird.

statuskuo

05-26-2003, 11:13 AM

wearing turtle-necks in the summer will give you an itchy neck.

Bold Soul

05-26-2003, 11:20 AM

Haven't met a woman yet who would want to part with her clitoris. Maybe those cultures who have decided to abuse their women this way fear what happens with you "push the magic button."

[ May 26, 2003, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

ngeso

05-26-2003, 11:24 AM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons.

I don't think it should be banned, I had a cousin that kept getting infections from her boyfriend (not std's) she went to the doctor and the doctor told her that because her mate wasn't circumsized, she would keep getting infections because we wasn't keeping his stuff clean. That was weird. one word: wash.

Bold Soul

05-26-2003, 11:36 AM

Originally posted by ngeso:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons.

I don't think it should be banned, I had a cousin that kept getting infections from her boyfriend (not std's) she went to the doctor and the doctor told her that because her mate wasn't circumsized, she would keep getting infections because we wasn't keeping his stuff clean. That was weird. one word: wash. [/QUOTE]Give a care enough about your sex partner to bathe your ass before bedtime.

JMJ

05-26-2003, 03:27 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ngeso:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons.

I don't think it should be banned, I had a cousin that kept getting infections from her boyfriend (not std's) she went to the doctor and the doctor told her that because her mate wasn't circumsized, she would keep getting infections because we wasn't keeping his stuff clean. That was weird. one word: wash. [/QUOTE]Give a care enough about your sex partner to bathe your ass before bedtime. [/QUOTE]The uncircumsized ass wasn't the problem.....JMJ

JoeB

05-26-2003, 03:39 PM

Originally posted by JMJ:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by ngeso:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons.

I don't think it should be banned, I had a cousin that kept getting infections from her boyfriend (not std's) she went to the doctor and the doctor told her that because her mate wasn't circumsized, she would keep getting infections because we wasn't keeping his stuff clean. That was weird. one word: wash. [/QUOTE]Give a care enough about your sex partner to bathe your ass before bedtime. [/QUOTE]The uncircumsized ass wasn't the problem.....JMJ [/QUOTE]sounds like the uncircumsized dick wasn't either but her nasty ass partner.

Doctor Love

05-26-2003, 04:57 PM

Inflicting pain on an infant is cruel.
Many old religious customs are based upon the social necessities of their time.
Female circumcision prevents women from enjoying sex so they won't cheat on their husbands.
Male circumcision prevents men from getting infections due to poor cleaning habits.
As we mature as a society it is important to honour customs and traditions of our ancestors.
However, mutilating genitailia doesn't bring you closer to God.

God invented soap!
Pass it on!

JoeB

05-26-2003, 06:07 PM

http://www.sicsociety.org/baby%20label.jpg

05-26-2003, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by JoeB:
http://www.sicsociety.org/baby%20label.jpg graemlins/rofl.gif graemlins/lol.gif icon_rofl.gif

bitonti

05-27-2003, 08:24 AM

studies have shown that neonatal male circumcision prevents certain forms of cancer in both sexes - i don't know how set in stone true that is, but it bears mentioning in any discussion.

ngeso

05-27-2003, 08:39 AM

keep hearing about these studies, and i'm in doubt. i wonder, because that would mean that i.e. continental europeans or south americans or many asians are more prone to these types of cancer and living at risk, since there is next to no practice of male infant circumcision in these parts of the world.

in any case, there's no preventative medical case in favour of male genital mutilation in our societies, when near everyone in the northern hemisphere has access to hot and cold showers, a lot of us on a multidaily basis.

peace. ngeso.

lola desire

05-27-2003, 09:11 AM

i support everyone being intact, men and women. as far as infections go, it doesn't matter whether you are cut or uncut, washing your ass (and pubic area) will keep you out of trouble.

the foreskin is an organ. it has specific purposes, it is NOT just an extra piece of useless skin. having the foreskin removed actually significantly reduces the erect length of the penis.

The foreskin has twelve known functions.
They are:
1. to cover and bond with the synechia so as to permit the development of the mucosal surface of the glans and inner foreskin.
2. to protect the infant's glans from feces and ammonia in diapers.
3. to protect the glans penis from friction and abrasion thoughout life.
4. to keep the glans moisturized and soft with emollient oils.
5. to lubricate the glans.
6. to coat the glans with a waxy protective substance.
7. to provide sufficient skin to cover an erection by unfolding.
8. to provide an aid to masturbation and foreplay.
9. to serve as an aid to penetration.
10. to reduce friction and chafing during intercourse.
11. to serve as erogenous tissue because of its rich supply of erogenous receptors.
12. to contact and stimulate the G-spot of the female partner.

source: cirp-anatomy (http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/)
more info @ http://www.cirp.org/

Martin Red

05-27-2003, 09:17 AM

A ex girlfriend used to breed Boxer dogs, it was made illegal to lob the tail off UK breeds but it was acceptable in the U.S, this was mid 80's

Now, this is also a disqualification in the U.S http://www.apbtconformation.com/dockedtail.jpg

So it's wrong to chop the tails of dogs but OK to chop .................. ;)

gabriel

05-27-2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons. that's actually the most common misconception about male circumcision, that it's cleaner and done for health reasons.

they are no real health benefits, and you're essentially removing what could in some ways be considered a male clitoris (in the sense that the foreskin houses many nerve endings).

my mother knew this when i was born and made sure i stayed in tact. i thank her for this every day since puberty ;)

JoeB

05-27-2003, 09:44 AM

Originally posted by Martin Red:
A ex girlfriend used to breed Boxer dogs, it was made illegal to lob the tail off UK breeds but it was acceptable in the U.S, this was mid 80's

Now, this is also a disqualification in the U.S http://www.apbtconformation.com/dockedtail.jpg

So it's wrong to chop the tails of dogs but OK to chop .................. ;) martin, i have a female brindle boxer and i have to say that yes, we have her ears and tail cropped but i thought that in europe they did not practice cropping the ears but still crop the tail. i did a lot of research on boxers before i got her and this is what i took away from my reading. just wondering if you meant the ears.

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-27-2003, 09:47 AM

Originally posted by gabrielloveshouse:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons. that's actually the most common misconception about male circumcision, that it's cleaner and done for health reasons.

they are no real health benefits, and you're essentially removing what could in some ways be considered a male clitoris (in the sense that the foreskin houses many nerve endings).

my mother knew this when i was born and made sure i stayed in tact. i thank her for this every day since puberty ;) [/QUOTE]So some men that are early to ejaculating could be even faster if their foreskin was intact? So, minute men would be second men? So circumcision has it's benefits and downfalls. graemlins/scared.gif

Don't mind me I'm being silly today. graemlins/rofl.gif

JoeB

05-27-2003, 09:59 AM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gabrielloveshouse:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons. that's actually the most common misconception about male circumcision, that it's cleaner and done for health reasons.

they are no real health benefits, and you're essentially removing what could in some ways be considered a male clitoris (in the sense that the foreskin houses many nerve endings).

my mother knew this when i was born and made sure i stayed in tact. i thank her for this every day since puberty ;) [/QUOTE]So some men that are early to ejaculating could be even faster if their foreskin was intact? So, minute men would be second men? So circumcision has it's benefits and downfalls. graemlins/scared.gif

Don't mind me I'm being silly today. graemlins/rofl.gif [/QUOTE]that's why men should do Kegel Exercises.

05-27-2003, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by JoeB:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gabrielloveshouse:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons. that's actually the most common misconception about male circumcision, that it's cleaner and done for health reasons.

they are no real health benefits, and you're essentially removing what could in some ways be considered a male clitoris (in the sense that the foreskin houses many nerve endings).

my mother knew this when i was born and made sure i stayed in tact. i thank her for this every day since puberty ;) [/QUOTE]So some men that are early to ejaculating could be even faster if their foreskin was intact? So, minute men would be second men? So circumcision has it's benefits and downfalls. graemlins/scared.gif

Don't mind me I'm being silly today. graemlins/rofl.gif [/QUOTE]that's why men should do Kegel Exercises. [/QUOTE]Unless you're a stallion like me, then there's no need for that. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/focking.gif

Me love you long time...really! graemlins/acclaim.gif

Jamie 3:26

05-27-2003, 10:08 AM

I have not had problems before due to me being uncircumsized.You really have to keep clean.If not,you can be the cause of yeast infections.So that means no going right to bed with ya dick stuck to ya leg.Get up and wash it.

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-27-2003, 10:09 AM

graemlins/spanka.gif @ Al

JMJ

05-27-2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Albert D.:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JoeB:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gabrielloveshouse:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons. that's actually the most common misconception about male circumcision, that it's cleaner and done for health reasons.

they are no real health benefits, and you're essentially removing what could in some ways be considered a male clitoris (in the sense that the foreskin houses many nerve endings).

my mother knew this when i was born and made sure i stayed in tact. i thank her for this every day since puberty ;) [/QUOTE]So some men that are early to ejaculating could be even faster if their foreskin was intact? So, minute men would be second men? So circumcision has it's benefits and downfalls. graemlins/scared.gif

Don't mind me I'm being silly today. graemlins/rofl.gif [/QUOTE]that's why men should do Kegel Exercises. [/QUOTE]Unless you're a stallion like me, then there's no need for that. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/focking.gif

Me love you long time...really! graemlins/acclaim.gif [/QUOTE]Stallion = Uses opposite hand to confuse himself.......JMJ graemlins/grinyes.gif

JMJ

05-27-2003, 10:12 AM

Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
I have not had problems before due to me being uncircumsized.You really have to keep clean.If not,you can be the cause of yeast infections.So that means no going right to bed with ya dick stuck to ya leg.Get up and wash it. A real pimp gets her to wash it.....JMJ biggrinangel.gif

imported_Gman

05-27-2003, 10:14 AM

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/lach.gif to this whole thread

05-27-2003, 10:14 AM

Originally posted by JMJ:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Albert D.:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by JoeB:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by gabrielloveshouse:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
For the men it's about being clean. Some people practice it in religion but doctors do it for health reasons. that's actually the most common misconception about male circumcision, that it's cleaner and done for health reasons.

they are no real health benefits, and you're essentially removing what could in some ways be considered a male clitoris (in the sense that the foreskin houses many nerve endings).

my mother knew this when i was born and made sure i stayed in tact. i thank her for this every day since puberty ;) [/QUOTE]So some men that are early to ejaculating could be even faster if their foreskin was intact? So, minute men would be second men? So circumcision has it's benefits and downfalls. graemlins/scared.gif

Don't mind me I'm being silly today. graemlins/rofl.gif [/QUOTE]that's why men should do Kegel Exercises. [/QUOTE]Unless you're a stallion like me, then there's no need for that. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/focking.gif

Me love you long time...really! graemlins/acclaim.gif [/QUOTE]Stallion = Uses opposite hand to confuse himself.......JMJ graemlins/grinyes.gif [/QUOTE]Using the other hand = cheating http://deephousepage.com/smilies/jerkit.gif :D

05-27-2003, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
graemlins/spanka.gif @ Al A little more to the left please. biggrinangel.gif

Jamie 3:26

05-27-2003, 10:24 AM

One thing I never got,why in the hell would a man wait until he is grown to get cut?I don't wanna lose anything I have.I would also never do that to a kid.It's not in any of my beliefs,so I do not want any doctor cuttin on my boy,when I have one.

ngeso

05-27-2003, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by lola desire:
i support everyone being intact, men and women. as far as infections go, it doesn't matter whether you are cut or uncut, washing your ass (and pubic area) will keep you out of trouble.

the foreskin is an organ. it has specific purposes, it is NOT just an extra piece of useless skin. having the foreskin removed actually significantly reduces the erect length of the penis.

The foreskin has twelve known functions.
They are:
1. to cover and bond with the synechia so as to permit the development of the mucosal surface of the glans and inner foreskin.
2. to protect the infant's glans from feces and ammonia in diapers.
3. to protect the glans penis from friction and abrasion thoughout life.
4. to keep the glans moisturized and soft with emollient oils.
5. to lubricate the glans.
6. to coat the glans with a waxy protective substance.
7. to provide sufficient skin to cover an erection by unfolding.
8. to provide an aid to masturbation and foreplay.
9. to serve as an aid to penetration.
10. to reduce friction and chafing during intercourse.
11. to serve as erogenous tissue because of its rich supply of erogenous receptors.
12. to contact and stimulate the G-spot of the female partner.

source: cirp-anatomy (http://www.cirp.org/pages/anat/)
more info @ http://www.cirp.org/ excellent post! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Ligament

05-27-2003, 10:38 AM

There is no medical benefit to circumcising males. The very very slight decrease in adult penile carcinoma is balanced by the potential post-op infections in newly circumcised babies.

The American Association of Pediatricians does not recommend circumcision other than for elective cultural reasons (which is the almost the only reason doctors will perform this operation).

I have performed and assisted in a few circumcisions and it is a pretty brutal looking (and I imaging feeling) operation. This was before I was "enlightened". Doctors are simply NOT educated in the WHYs of circumcision. It is simply accepted.

There is a great book out called Circumcision: A History of the World's Most Controversial Surgery
by David L. Gollaher. This book gives a very detailed account of the religious and societal reasons for circumcision, and goes over the medical data to some depth. Great read on an extremely obfuscated topic in American culture.

best.

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-27-2003, 10:40 AM

Okay I am guilty of doing it to my son. He wasn't uncomfortable, no infections or in any pain. Although he was very sensitive and I made sure we were careful when we changed him. The reason I did it because of tradition. The way the doctor performed the operation, the foreskin isn't completely removed and he will still have to pull it back to wash. Don't know why but the doc said that the traditional circumsion wasn't done in the same fashion because of how sensitive the foreskin is. graemlins/conf44.gif

[ May 27, 2003, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: DiscoLady ]

lola desire

05-27-2003, 11:15 AM

Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Okay I am guilty of doing it to my son. He wasn't uncomfortable, no infections or in any pain. Although he was very sensitive and I made sure we were careful when we changed him. The reason I did it because of tradition. The way the doctor performed the operation, the foreskin isn't completely removed and he will still have to pull it back to wash. Don't know why but the doc said that the traditional circumsion wasn't done in the same fashion because of how sensitive the foreskin is. graemlins/conf44.gif there probably was some pain involved.

source (http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/)
http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/ouch.gif

[ May 27, 2003, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: lola desire ]

05-27-2003, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by lola desire:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DiscoLady:
Okay I am guilty of doing it to my son. He wasn't uncomfortable, no infections or in any pain. Although he was very sensitive and I made sure we were careful when we changed him. The reason I did it because of tradition. The way the doctor performed the operation, the foreskin isn't completely removed and he will still have to pull it back to wash. Don't know why but the doc said that the traditional circumsion wasn't done in the same fashion because of how sensitive the foreskin is. graemlins/conf44.gif there probably was some pain involved.

source (http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/)
http://www.cirp.org/library/procedure/plastibell/ouch.gif [/QUOTE]graemlins/scared.gif graemlins/scared.gif graemlins/scared.gif graemlins/scared.gif graemlins/scared.gif graemlins/scared.gif

Boy am I thankful that my dad argued with the doctor and told him to leave me as is. Whew!

If you really wanna see what happens check this out (WARNING! NOT FOR THE FAINT OF HEART, SO D/L AT YOUR OWN RISK.):

Images and Illustrations (http://www.circumcisionquotes.com/description.html)

Videos Download Page (http://www.intact.ca/video.html)

Video and Slideshow Main Page (http://circumcisionquotes.com/video.html)

richierich

05-27-2003, 11:57 AM

As far as the religious purposes... where in the bible does it say that a man should be circumcised(sp)? I've heard people say for religious beliefs .. but what are the beliefs and what chapter and verse does it say this??

Ligament

05-27-2003, 12:13 PM

Most of the circumcision tradition in the Judeo-christian tradition comes from the old testament (ie. the judeo influence). Read the book referenced by me above and you will find every biblical reference you could care for.

There are multiple very explicit refernces in the old testament. It is clearly (not implied) stated that one MUST be circumcised to be a part of the jewish faith.

best.

lola desire

05-27-2003, 12:14 PM

Originally posted by richierich:
As far as the religious purposes... where in the bible does it say that a man should be circumcised(sp)? I've heard people say for religious beliefs .. but what are the beliefs and what chapter and verse does it say this?? i'm pretty sure it's in the old testament. i believe it's related to the covenant that abraham makes with god... sorry i can't be more specific. perhaps someone else can shed some light on this.

Ligament

05-27-2003, 12:22 PM

MORE THAN YOU WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT OF CIRCUMCISION, by DR. LIGAMENT

(This is a little paper I presented to the OB/GYN department at my hospital. Hope you find it interesting)

Egyptian Rites

Circumcision dates back to time of the Pharaohs. Some historians, noting the Egyptian’s obsession with purification rituals, attribute the practice to preserving the body fluid’s flow and cleanliness. To illustrate, one of the few ancient healers whose name has survived was Iri, Keeper of the Royal Rectum, the pharaoh’s gastroenterologist and colonic irrigation specialist.

Egyptian royalty and upper-class men used the mark of circumcision to distinguish themselves as intellectuals and in preparation of joining a religious order. Removing the foreskin signified a spiritual purification and moral devotion to a higher cause. Origen of Alexandria writes, “For among Egyptians, no one devoted himself to the study of astronomy, which was considered by them to be the noblest science… if he had not had himself circumcised.”

Eventually, all Egyptian men of social power- be it military, political, or intellectual- pressured their priests to bestow their sons with the distinguishing mark of nobility; the mark of circumcision.

There are also historical references to circumcision as a mark of submission and slave status. In the 13th century B.C., Egyptian slaves were initially subjected to castration. Unfortunately, many slaves did not survive the procedure. Circumcision was eventually used instead as a way to humiliate the slaves, while not endangering their usefulness.

The Hebrews are the most well known Egyptian slaves. This may be the origin of the Judaic tradition of circumcision. It is thought that Moses was himself Egyptian. It is possible that he used the mark of circumcision as a unifying factor for these newly freed people (though he never submitted to the procedure himself).

Judaic Covenants

The Old Testament lists the singular reason for circumcision as fulfillment of the Covenant between the Jewish people and God. Abraham, the patriarch of Judaism, was made a promise by God, but the promise was conditional:

“God said to Abraham, ‘For your part your must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you, generation by generation. This is how you shall keep my covenant between myself and you and your descendants after you: circumcise yourselves, every male among you. You shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin, and it shall be the sign of the covenant between us. Every male among you in every generation shall be circumcised on the eighth day, both those born in your house and any foreigner, not of your blood but bought with your money… thus shall my covenant be marked in your flesh as an everlasting covenant.” (Genesis 17:10-13)

There is also a suggestion that circumcision would bring the Jews miraculous fertility.

God told Abraham, “ This is my covenant to you: You shall be the father of a multitude of nations… I will make you exceeding fertile, and make nations of you; and kings shall come forth from you.” (Genesis 17:4-6)

This was a powerful promise because Abraham was ninety years old at this time, yet he and his wife had a son. After his wife died, he remarried and had a second family.

Circumcision was also used to display membership to the Judaic tribe; “Every uncircumcised male, everyone who has not had the flesh of his foreskin circumcised, shall be cut off from his people. He has broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

Since this first instance, the Bible lists many occasions of violence involving circumcision. In one case, Jacob’s daughter Dinah is raped by a prince, Shechem, who subsequently proposes marriage. Dinah’s brothers refuse the hand of their sister for matrimony, unless the suitor submits to circumcision of himself and every male of his tribe. The prince agrees. “Then two days later, when they were in great pain, Jacob’s two sons Simeon and Levi, full brothers to Dinah, armed themselves with swords, boldly entered the city and killed every male” (Genesis 34;1-25).

In another instance, King Saul demands the dowry of “the foreskins of one hundred Philistines” for David to be worthy to marry his daughter. David returned with two hundred.

Though Egyptians had circumcised their sons at puberty, Jewish law prescribed this to be an infant operation. Some Jewish scholars attributed this to confirming the child’s commitment to the religious community before he had a choice in the matter. Some rabbis say that the foreskin is an imperfection. Removing it revealed the body in its ideal form. Still others say that it is to reduce any early sexual transgressions, such as masturbation, by blunting sexual sensation. Thus, it could be the symbol of removing superfluous or excessive sexual pleasure- the bane of a pious life.

In later eras, much importance is placed on the blood of this ceremony. Some argue that the blood of circumcision replaced the blood of the “sacrificial lamb.” Circumcision blood replaced vaginal blood as the symbol of fertility, as women’s menses were seen as “uncontrolled and impure.”

The importance of the blood is seen in the stages of the ceremony. During early bris ceremonies, the mohel (rabbi or physician performing the circumcision) first stretches the foreskin over the glans and cuts it with a stone knife. This is chituch. Then he uses his thumbnail (filed to the sharpest edge) to expose the glans and tear away the inner foreskin tissue. This is periah. Finally, came mezizah, when the mohel took the wounded penis in his mouth and sucked to stop the bleeding. Then he would take mouthfuls of wine and spit this on the infant’s wound. The foreskin, and any blood that was caught, was placed in a basin of sand and blessings were spoken over it. Different traditions are listed for what becomes of this sand and foreskin, but often it was buried to insure the boy’s fertility.

Further evidence of the importance of the blood is seen in the rituals for men who wish to convert to Judaism. Even if they have already been circumcised at birth, the “blood of the covenant” must still be drawn. A mohel will take a lancet and pierce the penis, just enough to draw blood. If the man is uncircumcised, he must still undergo the procedure, though it is performed at a hospital, with a mohel present in the operating room.

Christian Traditions

Born a Jew, Jesus was circumcised in the traditional way. This led early conservative Jewish converts to believe that all followers should be circumcised to emulate Jesus in every way. Understandably, Gentile converts took issue with this. The disciple Paul preached that Jesus had subsumed God’s covenant with Abraham, stating to his followers, “Was anyone already circumcised when he was called? Let him not seek to remove the marks of circumcision. Was anyone uncircumcised when he was called? Let him not seek circumcision.” (1 Corinthians 7:18)

Paul sought a simple Christianity, which eliminated the elaborate laws and rituals of Jewish tradition. He wished for his converts to see past the distinction between Jew and Gentile, to come together in faith. Later authors furthered the point, insisting that by accepting Christ’s blood sacrifice on the cross, the faithful were “vicariously circumcised.”

During the Renaissance in Europe, the only attention given to circumcision was to the fabled foreskin of Christ. Legend held that Mary saved Jesus’ foreskin until her ascension into heaven, where she returned it to him, so he might stand whole before God. But others suggested that it survived. The Mother of Jesus entrusted it to Mary Magdalene, who passed it on to the apostles. The relic was reportedly spirited from person to person, until it eventually was presented to Pope Leo XIII in the 9th century.

In later history, some Christians claimed that Jews would steal their infant sons and torture them with circumcision before killing them. They claimed it was done as part of the Passover rituals. The Jews were said to want to end the lives of Christians, as they had ended the life of the blasphemer Jesus.

Muslim Faith

Muhammad is said to have started life as an orphan in 570 A.D. At the age of forty, he experienced a series of visions that revealed God’s purpose. He wrote these down in the Qur’an and established himself as a prophet.

While there is little evidence that Muhammad himself considered circumcision a vital expression of faith, his followers have collected his quotations and drawn from the authority of the Old Testament, particularly venerating Abraham as “a guide for the people and a model in all things for the Muslim faith (Qur’an 2:124; 16:123). These have become the basis of Islamic law.

Muhammad is said to have prescribed five fitrahs, or measures of a man’s spiritual cleanliness and mental health. These include circumcision, shaving the pubic hair, moustache trimming, paring the nails, and plucking the hair under the armpits.

Modern Muslim leaders and teachers staunchly support the position of circumcision. Repeatedly throughout Islamic law, the uncircumcised are referred to as “unclean” or second-class citizens. Circumcision is used again to mark a man as a member of a tribe.
In the Middle East, circumcision is treated in a variety of ways throughout the region. While the rite is performed in infancy in some areas, it is often performed on boys as a symbol of becoming a man, or prior to being allowed to marry.

Rather than being performed by someone of the religious order, Muslim circumcisions were routinely performed by barbers or blacksmiths- though the operators were always known to be especially devout men. The ritual is similar to the Jewish customs, in that the barber would use a flint or stone knife to cut and a thumbnail to tear away the inner foreskin. A circumcised member of the boy’s family would accompany him, in case he lost his nerve or fainted. After the procedure, the wound is bound with herbal salves, dirt, or medicinal leaves. In wealthy families, much feasting and revelry precede the ceremony,

Indigenous Tribes

It is reported that Columbus found circumcised natives in the New World. Indeed, anthropologists have found evidence of circumcision practices on every major continent. In some African cultures, the procedure is performed at the infant’s birth. In some aboriginal cultures, the circumcision ceremony happens just before the boy reaches adolescence. The rite is associated both with reaching manhood, as well as a right of fertility. Some tribes involve animal sacrifice as part of the ritual. Others involve the boy in an arduous trial before the operation, so that he has a chance to prove he is a worthy member of the tribe.

In all these ceremonies, the ritual is a public one. It involves several different members of the tribe to perform different duties and act different parts. The greatest significance of these ceremonies seems to be to distinguish the member from humanity as a whole, to be a bound member of his tribe.

Some African tribes circumcise their female members as well. This procedure usually involves removing the hood of the clitoris, or the entire clitoris altogether. The members of these tribes that partake in these rituals feel that they are circumcising the parts of the genitalia that make them similar to the opposite sex. In men, the foreskin is a covering similar to the labia. For women, the extension of the clitoris is seen as the projecting, masculine portion of her genitalia. By removing these parts, the individual will more resemble their “true sex” In marriage to the opposite sex, that person will find and fulfill the part of them that was removed during the circumcision, thus completing the individual.

Some tribes practice subincision, in which the penis is cut ventrally from the tip of the urethra down to the scrotum. In extreme cases, this results in a completely flayed penis. It is believed by these tribes that the flayed penis more closely resembles the vagina, therefore endowing the man with greater fertility. Subincised males with healed wounds sometimes re-open them, and the ensuing blood is thought to carry away “evil spirits” from the body, as does female menstruation.

The fate of the removed foreskin varies greatly amongst those tribes practicing circumcision. In some cultures, the foreskin is simply discarded, while in others it is eaten by the boy’s mother or father. In one African tribe, multiple foreskins from group circumcisions are ground into small cakes and eaten by those boy’s just circumcised. In Australia, the natives take the foreskins to sacred trees and caves where lost souls reside. It is thought that through these foreskins the souls can be reborn as children.

Bibliography:
David L. Gollaher,“Circumcision: A History of the World's Most Controversial Surgery”, Basic Books, 2000

W.D. Dunsmuir and E.M. Gordon, “The history of circumcision”, BJU International, volume 83, supple 1: Pages 1-12, January 1, 1999.

05-27-2003, 12:24 PM

It should not be banned...this is another convenant with GOD.

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-27-2003, 01:55 PM

Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand

05-27-2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by richierich:
As far as the religious purposes... where in the bible does it say that a man should be circumcised(sp)? I've heard people say for religious beliefs .. but what are the beliefs and what chapter and verse does it say this?? It's all thru the old testament. Especially in Genesis, Numbers and Deuteronomy (sp)

JMNYC

05-27-2003, 05:44 PM

it should def be banned. the first act of child abuse, all for absolutely nothing. I would never have my kids cut.

there are even large groups out there of men who have found methods to "grow" their foreskins back

Martin Red

05-28-2003, 03:20 AM

Originally posted by JoeB:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:
A ex girlfriend used to breed Boxer dogs, it was made illegal to lob the tail off UK breeds but it was acceptable in the U.S, this was mid 80's

Now, this is also a disqualification in the U.S http://www.apbtconformation.com/dockedtail.jpg

So it's wrong to chop the tails of dogs but OK to chop .................. ;) martin, i have a female brindle boxer and i have to say that yes, we have her ears and tail cropped but i thought that in europe they did not practice cropping the ears but still crop the tail. i did a lot of research on boxers before i got her and this is what i took away from my reading. just wondering if you meant the ears. [/QUOTE]graemlins/grinyes.gif

I think you may be right actually the ear cropping was illegal in the 80's, yes. I think it is more recent they have banned the tail bobbing but am not sure.

My ex and a friend won best of breed at Crufts ;) , urrhum I mean they showed dogs that won.

So it's OK to chop a kids cock but not OK to crop a dogs ears. :(

US