Open question to the pros?

[Shalewa]

I appreciate that artists want to earn their livings from their creative work as I am daily engaged in juggling act all working artists must master. I just don't understand why so many of you hold the audience that you do have responsible for the failure of the work to pay you like you wanna get paid. Please explain to me how so called deep heads are impeding the flow of green energy in your direction or otherwise cramping your style or limiting your creative expression?

[ April 21, 2003, 10:25 AM: Message edited by: Shalewa ]

[däp]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
I just don't understand why so many of you hold the audience that you do have responsible for the failure of the work to pay you like you wanna get paid.
--------------------------------------------
Please explain to me how so called deep heads are impeding the flow of green energy in your direction? forgive me but i don't understand the abovementioned statement. providing further calrity may allow me to answer the question.

[Shalewa]

see above edit...

green energy=$$$$$ (thanks to David Mancuso)

[Bill Blake]

I get the feeling its more a rhetorical question.

But you know as well as I do that its just bullshit. ANY ONE that wants to make a living at making music can do so if they REALLY want to.

But takes hard work, long term planning, thinking, patience, consistency, the willingness to understand there is a lot one would have to give up in the short term for the long and in some instances intelligent compromises.

Anything other than blaming one’s self as to why they are not ‘making it’ is just an excuse.

[yodvibes]

please rephrase the question again using 1st grade grammer cause my illiterate ass cant comprehend it.

[ April 21, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: yodvibes ]

[Doug]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Anything other than blaming one’s self as to why they are not ‘making it’ is just an excuse. That is only true to a certain extent.

[däp]

i think i understand and agree with jamie.

there are always going to be rainy days but on the whole, you are the master of you fate. i have yet found anyone to blame for my circumstance but myself.

[ April 21, 2003, 10:53 AM: Message edited by: torin ]

[djmarbll]

I earn a living off playing music (drums, production, and deejaying) and when you're not called for work and work is definitely available, you have to ask yourself what is wrong.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Doug:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Anything other than blaming one’s self as to why they are not ‘making it’ is just an excuse. That is only true to a certain extent. </font>[/QUOTE]You know what I mean buddy!

Watch it, your crusin for a brusin

[TAD]

Originally posted by Doug:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Anything other than blaming one’s self as to why they are not ‘making it’ is just an excuse. That is only true to a certain extent. </font>[/QUOTE]i agree. too many variables that are sometimes out of one's control.

[lola desire]

i think in every "business" there are "secrets" to success. some people are privy to this information, while others are not. that's a fact.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by lola desire:
i think in every "business" there are "secrets" to success. some people are privy to this information, while others are not. that's a fact. So do you know these “secrets” or do you just think you know there are these “secrets” but you don’t really know because your sources kept them as “secrets” from you, or are just talking vaguely about something you don’t know anything about? Or more importantly what Shalewa was really getting at?

[mhd]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lola desire:
i think in every "business" there are "secrets" to success. some people are privy to this information, while others are not. that's a fact. So do you know these “secrets” or do you just think you know there are these “secrets” but you don’t really know because your sources kept them as “secrets” from you, or are just talking vaguely about something you don’t know anything about? Or more importantly what Shalewa was really getting at? </font>[/QUOTE]its a secret

[konbit]

I don't think that deep house artists blame their fans for their failures...I find that they more often blame the industry than the consumers.

[Nege]

Originally posted by djmarbll:
I earn a living off playing music (drums, production, and deejaying) and when you're not called for work and work is definitely available, you have to ask yourself what is wrong. Work is always available somewhere.especially if you are versatile.
You also have to distinguish work from pleasure and there is sometime room for both if you are lucky.

[Nege]

Originally posted by konbit:
I don't think that deep house artists blame their fans for their failures...I find that they more often blame the industry than the consumers. yeah,
it 's the powers of the industry,
unfortunately they have no clue that there is actually a fan base.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by konbit:
I don't think that deep house artists blame their fans for their failures...I find that they more often blame the industry than the consumers. failure as in dollar sales?

[Austin/Dallas]

I never notice anyone pointing fingers on this board in regards to failure...This is a tough market and the failure/success ratio depends on everyone in the industry supporting each other as done on this board.

[TAC]

Better yet, blame it on the "Man" or blame it on the "System."

[martino]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lola desire:
i think in every "business" there are "secrets" to success. some people are privy to this information, while others are not. that's a fact. So do you know these “secrets” or do you just think you know there are these “secrets” but you don’t really know because your sources kept them as “secrets” from you, or are just talking vaguely about something you don’t know anything about? Or more importantly what Shalewa was really getting at? </font>[/QUOTE]its a secret </font>[/QUOTE]haha. here's something that isn't secret but its appropriate for this time of year: collect every receipt you can so you can claim everything you can get away with as an expense. that may not make you a huge "success" but it'll help you survive.
graemlins/conf44.gif

[ April 22, 2003, 01:44 AM: Message edited by: martino ]

[(Im)poster]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
I appreciate that artists want to earn their livings from their creative work as I am daily engaged in juggling act all working artists must master. I just don't understand why so many of you hold the audience that you do have responsible for the failure of the work to pay you like you wanna get paid. Please explain to me how so called deep heads are impeding the flow of green energy in your direction or otherwise cramping your style or limiting your creative expression? Seems to me that blaming the crowd is just an excuse for what the speakers perceive as failure because they have put a price tag on their art. I'm the idealistic type who believes we should do what we love -- even as a hobby -- and find other ways to pay the bills. This way our art isn't compromised.

I've always thought that artists whose work allows them to earn a living are most fortunate, but burdened at the same time. They are lucky to have found an audience who understands and values their form of expression enough to support it with the "green energy" they need to survive. But sometimes artists start to value the green above what the art does for their soul. To me, such art becomes corrupted. Art -- made of words, images, sounds -- is our life force channeled into something -- our essence turned into poetry, paintings, music.

Kurt Vonnegut, one of the most prolific and "successful" writers, once said we should not do art hoping to become rich or famous, but to make our souls grow. I wonder what would happen if all artists -- including performing artists like DJs -- worked in this way. Maybe the money really would follow like in that old saying. And even if it didn't, isn't it more important to answer whatever it is that calls us to create in the first place? Think about it. Why do so many DJs keep buying records, mixing CDs if they don't have gigs? Why are so many trying to produce records? To me, this is proof that something deeper than the love of money is at work. Why not value that as important, too? With all the voices out there, there is something only I/you can say because or our unique experience. That goes for all artists.

[Cheddar]

The real problem is the blabbermouth self promoters of all walks who speak so loud, PC and brown nosed that the art does not speak for itself anymore. This has turned out to be a small niche in music consumed by networking. Talent is primarily recognized by affiliation/association. Regardless, either you love the records/sound or you dont...nobody is putting anthrax to the back of your neck forcing you to the cashier at record stores...are they??

[darrow]

I've read this thread over and over again. I do understand the theme of it, but I'm not sure I believe that blaming the audience is prevalent on this board or in the industry in general.

I think the closest I've come to blaming the audience is in voicing my frustration about the tendency potential consumers (in any industry) have for waiting until others deem a product good or interesting or of value. It seems like then they (I can be included in this many times) follow along instead of seeming to make their own individual choices (most consumers are "sheep" is often what I've heard).

If it truly is the case that the majority of consumers fall in into the followers category (isn't there some economic terms for this?...early adopters, late adopters, etc.?), then maybe innovators (including artists) would likely have a hard time in attracting people to their product/work...thus thinking "damn! they just don't get it! If they did, I'd be a success!"

Is the ""damn! they just don't get it! If they did, I'd be a success!" notion the type of thing this thread is referring to?

It's a stretch, I'm sure.

graemlins/conf44.gif

[ April 22, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: darrow ]

[nev m]

Originally posted by (Im)poster:Seems to me that blaming the crowd is just an excuse for what the speakers perceive as failure because they have put a price tag on their art. I'm the idealistic type who believes we should do what we love -- even as a hobby -- and find other ways to pay the bills. This way our art isn't compromised.

I've always thought that artists whose work allows them to earn a living are most fortunate, but burdened at the same time. They are lucky to have found an audience who understands and values their form of expression enough to support it with the "green energy" they need to survive. But sometimes artists start to value the green above what the art does for their soul. To me, such art becomes corrupted. Art -- made of words, images, sounds -- is our life force channeled into something -- our essence turned into poetry, paintings, music.

Kurt Vonnegut, one of the most prolific and "successful" writers, once said we should not do art hoping to become rich or famous, but to make our souls grow. I wonder what would happen if all artists -- including performing artists like DJs -- worked in this way. Maybe the money really would follow like in that old saying. And even if it didn't, isn't it more important to answer whatever it is that calls us to create in the first place? Think about it. Why do so many DJs keep buying records, mixing CDs if they don't have gigs? Why are so many trying to produce records? To me, this is proof that something deeper than the love of money is at work. Why not value that as important, too? With all the voices out there, there is something only I/you can say because or our unique experience. That goes for all artists. [/QB][/QUOTE]

How articulately expressed.

[lesysteme]

its funny, because any of the "sucess" ive been blessed with has had little to do with the deep house scene in NYC.

very few deep house djs have played the records and supported some of the releases ive been involved with..or latched on atleast 1 year after the fact...and this is sad because the records involved hopefully have the energy and drive that alot of the "heads" wish was still happening.

Europe supports the records for the most part..apart from from some real diggers stateside! (u knwo hwo u are!)

but on the whole, the nyc scene has played a pretty small role in the past number of years..so instead of bitching about it, most ppl have moved on and worked europe.

good question

[djdub63]

Originally posted by darrow:
I've read this thread over and over again. I do understand the theme of it, but I'm not sure I believe that blaming the audience is prevalent on this board or in the industry in general.

I think the closest I've come to blaming the audience is in voicing my frustration about the tendency potential consumers (in any industry) have for waiting until others deem a product good or interesting or of value. It seems like then they (I can be included in this many times) follow along instead of seeming to make their own individual choices (most consumers are "sheep" is often what I've heard).

If it truly is the case that the majority of consumers fall in into the followers category (isn't there some economic terms for this?...early adopters, late adopters, etc.?), then maybe innovators (including artists) would likely have a hard time in attracting people to their product/work...thus thinking "damn! they just don't get it! If they did, I'd be a success!"

Is the ""damn! they just don't get it! If they did, I'd be a success!" notion the type of thing this thread is referring to?

It's a stretch, I'm sure.

graemlins/conf44.gif http://www.the-scientist.com/images/yr2002/oct28/sheep.jpg

[Glenn UndergroundChicago's Very Own]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
see above edit...

green energy=$$$$$ (thanks to David Mancuso) I dont get it either but what ever work you do; GET PAID, if you have a job of pointing: point and get paid money dont cramp the style of strong men just the weak ones and they know who they are, no offense, this aint a pair of shoes to those who read this so please do not put them on. What i'm am saying is that this aint know if the shoe fits wear it reply. graemlins/respekt.gif

[(Im)poster]

Originally posted by darrow:
I've read this thread over and over again. I do understand the theme of it, but I'm not sure I believe that blaming the audience is prevalent on this board or in the industry in general. I hear such complaints all the time: THEY don't want to hear new music, THEY are stuck in the 90s, THEY only want to go to the Shelter, THEY don't want to pay to get in the club, THEY don't drink, THEY don't dance...

Some of the complaints are in order, granted. I interpreted the question from an artistic standpoint, but I do think that the DJ whose primary focus is "getting paid" is necessarily limited in terms of artistic expression. In this case, THEY are your customers and pleasing them (not yourself) has to be the primary focus. People pay to get into a party/club because something about it pleases them and they expect to be pleased in a similar fashion each time they return. A lot of DJs just don't seem to get that. So, IMO, the point is if you are playing for YOU, then play for YOU all the time and don't worry about getting gigs and getting paid (this part isn't directed at you, Darrow, I'm just venting here). But if you are in business, know what your customers want and do your best to deliver.


Is the ""damn! they just don't get it! If they did, I'd be a success!" notion the type of thing this thread is referring to?
Where is Shalewa?

Innovation is always risky, but who are you going to please? This is probably why a lot of artists don't become "great" until long after they're dead -- it took the masses that long to "get" their message. Some get lucky, though, and there are still a few free thinkers out among the sheep. Keep plugging away, keep trying something new is all we really can do.

I'm just sort of thinking this through as I go along. If I had my way, every house club would be packed and every DJ would have a crowd who understood his or her style. Unfortunately, that's not really happening in most places -- except in Europe.

[ April 22, 2003, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: (Im)poster ]

[Shalewa]

Originally posted by (Im)poster:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by darrow:
I've read this thread over and over again. I do understand the theme of it, but I'm not sure I believe that blaming the audience is prevalent on this board or in the industry in general. I hear such complaints all the time: THEY don't want to hear new music, THEY are stuck in the 90s, THEY only want to go to the Shelter, THEY don't want to pay to get in the club, THEY don't drink, THEY don't dance...

Some of the complaints are in order, granted. I interpreted the question from an artistic standpoint, but I do think that the DJ whose primary focus is "getting paid" is necessarily limited in terms of artistic expression. In this case, THEY are your customers and pleasing them (not yourself) has to be the primary focus. People pay to get into a party/club because something about it pleases them and they expect to be pleased in a similar fashion each time they return. A lot of DJs just don't seem to get that. So, IMO, the point is if you are playing for YOU, then play for YOU all the time and don't worry about getting gigs and getting paid (this part isn't directed at you, Darrow, I'm just venting here). But if you are in business, know what your customers want and do your best to deliver.


Is the ""damn! they just don't get it! If they did, I'd be a success!" notion the type of thing this thread is referring to?
Where is Shalewa?

Innovation is always risky, but who are you going to please? This is probably why a lot of artists don't become "great" until long after they're dead -- it took the masses that long to "get" their message. Some get lucky, though, and there are still a few free thinkers out among the sheep. Keep plugging away, keep trying something new is all we really can do.

I'm just sort of thinking this through as I go along. If I had my way, every house club would be packed and every DJ would have a crowd who understood his or her style. Unfortunately, that's not really happening in most places -- except in Europe. </font>[/QUOTE]Here I am.

Darrow and (Im)poster hit upon the idea I was trying to communicate. I have heard in conversation and read on this board industry folks downing heads for behaving in predictably head-like ways. The question behind the question is why are you complaining? If you want a different audience response build a different audience or bring a different product to the one you have but stop kvetching about the audience.

[ April 22, 2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Shalewa ]

[lesysteme]

hmm that a bit of a love it or leave it type view.

people are people..whether they are lovers or mainstream music or deep house heads

we all have trouble understanding new sounds sometimes..it seems like your saying the audience is always right..

thats far from the point i think..its not about whats right or wrong..its more about whats real..and what's real is only governed by human nature.

its just the way things are

the undergound is just as slow on the uptake as any other crowd

LOTS of ppl bring new sounds to the audience..especially to the deep heads that seem to be represented on this board..and few sounds catch on these days...

again those that want to try new things go to europe. for some reason they are alot more accepting of new sounds happening in underground scene that the states (or nyc atleast it seems)

just a fact thats all..not right or wrong.

[Shalewa]

"Love it or leave it"????????

No more like dissatisfied? Stop the big feed on sour grapes and change something-- maybe your expectations, maybe your work, maybe your marketing strategy. The audience is not wrong for liking what it likes, nor is the domestic audience monolithic. In my experience and observation there are plenty of folks hungry for new sounds in NYC. Indeed some of them post on this board and bemoan their difficulty in feeding their yen for new stuff.Hmmmmm, I wonder if maybe too many innovative, trailblazing creative geniuses are writing them off to their own disadvantage http://deephousepage.com/smilies/scratchchin.gif.
In my experience and observation some people hold the failure of their product to connect with the public as a reflection of some failing of the public as opposed to a reflection of the politics within the industry or the qualities of the work or simply the luck of the draw.

[lesysteme]

yes love it or leave..totally ..thats what youre sort of saying...i didnt expect you to understand or see it. its all good of course..cause youre saying that the crowd is not wrong. i never said the the crowd was right or wrong..maybe re read my post.

Sure theres lots of ppl looking for new things in NYC, but to make a living at this, one cannot rely on NYC record sales, well since a number years atleast. just fact. thats not to say NYC isnt an improtant market ofcourse.

"Stop the big feed on sour grapes and change something-- maybe your expectations, maybe your work, maybe your marketing strategy."

is this directed at me per say? and if so, please clarify.

you asked this questions of the pros, so please keep certain things in mind when you are communicating these ideas if above was directed at myself.

thanks and looking forward to your clarifications if they are needed.

[mdpm99]

There is neither the observer or the observed......there4 .....tip toe thru the tulips

d

[ April 23, 2003, 03:33 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[Insert pseudonym here]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
I appreciate that artists want to earn their livings from their creative work as I am daily engaged in juggling act all working artists must master. I just don't understand why so many of you hold the audience that you do have responsible for the failure of the work to pay you like you wanna get paid. Please explain to me how so called deep heads are impeding the flow of green energy in your direction or otherwise cramping your style or limiting your creative expression? Shalewa,

I won't attempt to answer your question. I accept my place as a novice and find a small amount of solace in it for now.

However, I did re-read your question 3 times ... because I think it warrants a different response. In your prose you wrote the following:

Please explain to me how so called deep heads are impeding the flow of green energy in your direction or otherwise cramping your style or limiting your creative expression?

I want to examine that text.

Now, for someone to accuse "deep heads" of impeding their fiscal success is a indeed a FARCE. I think that us "deep heads", "club kids", "extreme audiophiles" know this to be true.

As I have observed some things here while I have been in the UK and some other happens when I was in NYC... the scapegoat is dressed as a "deep head" because we represent HISTORY AND A LEVEL OF VALIDITY that one cannot buy, convince or persuade with a catchy hook and electro-fied beats.

I've heard some dj(s) make that statement... and it only reveals their weakness and fear of going deeper. Thus if they totally understood the history of the genre then the intimidation factor of one said "deep heads" wouldn't be used as a feeble excuse of fiscal dis-empowerment.

So, that's my £0.02 on the subject matter. Without people like you... dancers, deep heads or people that just really FEEL IT AND EXPRESS THE VIBES... the party wouldn't be anything but a small gathering with a toliet and some red bull.

You heard me?

[ April 23, 2003, 08:32 AM: Message edited by: DJ Efabulous ]

[%seRge%]

nice tread.
"Do What You Love and the Money Will Follow."

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
If you want a different audience response build a different audience or bring a different product to the one you have but stop kvetching about the audience. Bingo with the lingo

[1SmoothDj]

Many good points here. I think blaming your audience overlooks the many triggers that enable/impedes the success of ones journey within this genre in the first place.

As an artist I say 'let thy will be done' where ever, whenever you can. You received the call to create...do it, share your visions, build it, just never lose sight of your love for it. I agree..if its to be it will be done PERIOD! That's including the money part because this to is a business that requires financial considerations. (you need food, roof, cloths etc)If you're fortunate the $$ catches up with you...if you are not so fortunate during your run...you can always fallback on the fact that primarily you are an artist who's contributions were good for the preservation of your creative vehicle. Let the lambs catch up if ever they do...but you have expressed yourself to the world thus...you shall be free. graemlins/grinyes.gif

This is what keeps me alive dispite how things look for me as an individual within our community...

Marv

[(Im)poster]

This thread makes me think that finding one's crowd is a lot like finding one's mate. :D

In both cases you gotta find a someone(s)who

appreciates your style
won't stop believing if you mess up
is willing to let you try something new
knows you will sometimes have a bad day/night
can be open enough to learn from you
will make sacrifices to see you
will stick with you in lean times
can grow with you


And I would guess in both cases that the best way to success is to be who you are/play like who you are. But that's just what I think.

[(Im)poster]

Originally posted by Dj Marv:
Many good points here. I think blaming your audience overlooks the many triggers that enable/impedes the success of ones journey within this genre in the first place.

As an artist I say 'let thy will be done' where ever, whenever you can. You received the call to create...do it, share your visions, build it, just never lose sight of your love for it. I agree..if its to be it will be done PERIOD! That's including the money part because this to is a business that requires financial considerations. (you need food, roof, cloths etc)If you're fortunate the $$ catches up with you...if you are not so fortunate during your run...you can always fallback on the fact that primarily you are an artist who's contributions were good for the preservation of your creative vehicle. Let the lambs catch up if ever they do...but you have expressed yourself to the world thus...you shall be free. graemlins/grinyes.gif

This is what keeps me alive dispite how things look for me as an individual within our community...

Marv Well said, DJ.

[Kenrick _]

quote:
-------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Shalewa:
If you want a different audience response build a different audience or bring a different product to the one you have but stop kvetching about the audience.
-------------------------------------------------------

damn shawela where the hell were you like 5 years ago when i needed this advice. i agree with you 100%.

a friend of mine started out playing mostly what the audience liked. now they are starting to dance to what he loves (deep house). he built his own audience by dhecking his pride at first.

i would love to play what i love aaaaaaaaallll the time, but overall i just love djing period!

[ April 23, 2003, 09:45 PM: Message edited by: Kenrick _ ]