Dream Sound System

[Hippie]

If money was no problem what would your dream sound system be like in your dream club.

[ July 17, 2003, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: Hippie ]

[muel]

Hi Hippie,

Without stating the obvious mine would be the size of David Mancuso's(even though Ive not heard it) as I like smaller more intimate crowds and also it would be more HiFi then.

David M. I have tried to find as much as I can possibly dig up about your system but still have grey areas like what xover you use and bass bins etc?(I assume you dont use the RLA xover like most) :rolleyes:

The room would be acoustically sound, and system tuned to fit. I like open spaces so the dance floor would be in the middle of a house/appartment to let the sun in.
A seperate box for bass, mids and highs on front LT, middle(mono), front RT, left rear and right rear. Also 2 arrays of bullet tweeters suspended.
I would use horns in there somewhere and ohohohhhh... I could go on forever but have to get back to work so I'll log back on later.

:D

[muel]

No good having a wicked system with out a smick front end.

Hippie do you still use Thorens Ttables? I think I read that you are using Gemini, are these as good?.
The Thorens would sound a lot better than my 1200's, I imagine smile.gif

[jsd540]

Urei 1620 3 phono's and a few special mods like a fader and eq's
RLA 3 way
2 BGW 750c bass
qsc 900 full
crown D75 Highs
Denon 9000 dual cd

[Hippie]

Originally posted by muel
Hippie do you still use Thorens Ttables? I think I read that you are using Gemini, are these as good?.
The Thorens would sound a lot better than my 1200's, I imagine No muel I don't have Gemini I have two (1100's). Those were the Technics tables before the 1200's. I wish I can tell you how the Gemini's feel but I've never used them. Sorry!!! graemlins/jpshakehead.gif graemlins/jpshakehead.gif graemlins/jpshakehead.gif graemlins/jpshakehead.gif graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[mdpm99]

muel quote:

David M. I have tried to find as much as I can possibly dig up about your system but still have grey areas like what xover you use and bass bins etc?(I assume you dont use the RLA xover like most)

Greetings muel:

I use passive xover which is already inside the Klipsch (full range) Speakers.

Re: bass bins...I believe you are referring to bass reinforcement? First time ever used was at the loft 73. Tweeter arrays also were first ever used at the loft/74. I found out over a period of time that suspending them from the ceiling is not exactly correct. Also full range Klipsch can reproduce a low c note effortlessly. Whereas the bass reinforcement spks went down to only about 40. So I eventually took them out also.

Keep it simple and efficient and you will have a musical system that covers everything.

d

Ps. you would have to upgrade to moving coils...that is where all the action is.

Also rule # one....room acoustics

[muel]

Cool, sorry bout that Hippie I didnt think you used them, thats why I asked.
Did you ever use Thorens?


thanks smile.gif

[ July 18, 2003, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: muel ]

[muel]

David quote:
Greetings muel:

I use passive xover which is already inside the Klipsch (full range) Speakers.

Re: bass bins...I believe you are referring to bass reinforcement? First time ever used was at the loft 73. Tweeter arrays also were first ever used at the loft/74. I found out over a period of time that suspending them from the ceiling is not exactly correct. Also full range Klipsch can reproduce a low c note effortlessly. Whereas the bass reinforcement spks went down to only about 40. So I eventually took them out also.

Keep it simple and efficient and you will have a musical system that covers everything.

d

Ps. you would have to upgrade to moving coils...that is where all the action is.

Also rule # one....room acoustics
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers David, smile.gif
So do you just use your Klipch horns and thats it, do they have any mods or are they stock standard?
I was wondering how you feed the centre mono speaker, how do you sum the lt & rt to just give you mono?
What moving coil carts do you recommend and do you need a seperate box to take it to the phono pre?

I have two rega planar 2 Ttables(glass platter that I am wanting to replace my 1200's with, have you heard of these, are they good? I think they sound better than my 1200's.

Sorry to ask so many questions, its just that I am planning on investing/upgrading my system and want to get it right.
I also dont mind not using a mixer to blend records all the time. I still find it fun but if Im going to have a decent system I want to be able to enjoy and hear the music with out too manny devices colouring the sound.

Muel. ;)

[muel]

Thank you David,
What you say is really refreshing to me, as a lot of people are obsessed with systems that seem like they are on steroids and would take me a life time to buy. graemlins/thumbsup.gif
I was just guessing that seperate boxes are the go, but in the back of my head I kinda new this was a bit excessive.

Are the new Klipch horns any good(thats if they still make em)or are the classic wooden ones the go?

Muel.

[ July 18, 2003, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: muel ]

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by muel:
Thank you David,
What you say is really refreshing to me, as a lot of people are obsessed with systems that seem like they are on steroids and would take me a life time to buy. graemlins/thumbsup.gif
I was just guessing that seperate boxes are the go, but in the back of my head I kinda new this was a bit excessive.

Are the new Klipch horns any good(thats if they still make em)or are the classic wooden ones the go?

Muel. http://www.klipsch.com/

Will come back later re your questions smile.gif

d

[Hippie]

muel yes I used Thorens. The original Limelight on 9th st. and 7th ave had them so did Zanzibar for awhile but I prefer the 1100's to me there the epitome of smoothness. Hard to mantain but if you can afford the upkeep they are sweet. My dream turntable would preform like a 1100 but the cartridge would be laser. I read about an experiemental turntable a couple of years back where the cartridge was laser. I believe they spent about a million on R&D but it never took off. Recently I found out Francois K may have brought one of these turntables. so that is my ideal turntable. graemlins/OLA.gif

[TAD]

good morning Hippie. i'm with you on the 1100's. i own 4 of them myself & they blow the current 1200's out of the water. you can't beat them when it comes to mixing classics, they're like butter.

the laser tt you mentioned has been discussed here b4. looks like it's still available.

The ELP Laser Turntable

Perfect Analog Sound Forever At a Price

Ralph Glasgal
www.ambiophonics.org (http://www.ambiophonics.org)

3 March 2000


Specifications

ELP LT-1XA Laser Turntable, $20,500.00, 30-50 rpm and 60-90 rpm, inc. switched equalizer, line-level output, air shipment, and HW-17S record cleaning machine. ELP LT-1LA laser turntable, 30-rpm, inc. air shipment and VPI HW-17S cleaning machine, $13,500.00.

Manufacturer:
ELP Corporation
3-10-1 Minami Urawa,
Urawa-shi, Saitama 336, Japan;
phone 048/883-8502,
fax 0-48/883-8503;
e-mail: elpchiba@interlink.or.jp;
website at www.elpj.com. (http://www.elpj.com.)

North American Distributor:
Andy Obst,
5 Timber Ridge, Los Alamos,
NM 87544; phone 505/662-1415,
fax 505/661-9068,
e-mail: andyobst@aol.com.

"The almost complete lack of serious playback harmonic distortion and the really flat and wide frequency response, free of resonance’s, from the ELP is a revelation..."

This is not an April Fools joke! Yes, Virginia, there really is a turntable that plays LPs (and even 78s) optically, that performs this function to the highest audiophile standards and that is now readily available at a rather high, but now more reasonable price than when first announced under the Finial aegis in the late 1980s


FULL ARTICLE (http://members.lycos.co.uk/jeffdammer/files/elp/elp.htm)


http://members.lycos.co.uk/jeffdammer/files/elp/The%20ELP%20Laser%20Turntable_files/image002.jpg

[Stu.]

Why don't people use Electrostatic speakers in clubs?

You could build a room with electrostatic walls? Or have I just got the wrong idea?

Stu.
URL=http://www.loftlogic.co.uk]www.loftlogic.co.uk[/URL]

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by Stu.:
Why don't people use Electrostatic speakers in clubs?

You could build a room with electrostatic walls? Or have I just got the wrong idea?

Stu.
URL=http://www.loftlogic.co.uk]www.loftlogic.co.uk[/URL] Greetings Stu:

Please always keep this in mind. Efficiency is the bottom line with respect to the speaker.

Would you want a car that gave you a 100 miles per liter or 1 mile to a liter?

smile.gif

d

[Stu.]

Greetings!

If money was no object and my aim was go as fast as possible in a straight line then it wouldn't matter?

get lots of amps?

Stu.

[ July 18, 2003, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: Stu. ]

[muel]

Are the new Klipch horns any good(thats if they still make em)or are the classic wooden ones the go?

Muel. [/qb][/QUOTE] http://www.klipsch.com/

Will come back later re your questions smile.gif

d [/QB][/QUOTE]
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the link David Im on there now. I like the look of the La Scalas. graemlins/grinyes.gif

Muel.

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by Stu.:
Greetings!

If money was no object and my aim was go as fast as possible in a straight line then it wouldn't matter?

get lots of amps?

Stu. You go one step at a time and very slowly....starting with the wiring, amps, etc., cartridge last step. Buy modular equiptment so you can update when necessary. Believe me in the long run it is cheaper.

Remember this: Your speakers should be extremely efficent or it will all turn into something else.
And there are plenty of people out there who will take your money and not tell a lot of things.

d

[Jolyon]

I still don't get how I can stand next to a speaker at a Loft party and have a conversation with someone without raising my voice. Or how it 'apppears' that no sound is coming out of the speaker. graemlins/conf44.gif

I never was any good at physics at school... graemlins/mecry.gif

[muel]

Hey Jolyon,
I was never good at physics either mainly because I was always goofing around.
:rolleyes:
Im thinking that the reason you could have a conversation still is that (unlike most club systems that are being over worked) Davids system would have very little distortion, that I think is the main reason we normally cant hear each other talk in a club.
As for the speakers, Im guessing they have been set up correctly in regards to the room and each other and are acting like one big headphone, with you in the middle.

P.S
I checked out your balearic mix, I like it, I forgot about that Pigbag track(very nice). smile.gif

[Ronnie Ron]

Tony Humphries still Uses Thorens to make his mixshows... ;)

Nice Thread!!

R-R

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
I still don't get how I can stand next to a speaker at a Loft party and have a conversation with someone without raising my voice. Or how it 'apppears' that no sound is coming out of the speaker. graemlins/conf44.gif

I never was any good at physics at school... graemlins/mecry.gif Jolyon,

Math is still my worst subject.

The cleaner the system the more the sound becomes transparent.

Tonality is very important also.

The more efficient the sound system is, the more the music comes out of the speaker rather than staying inside of the spkr. -- which is the difference of hearing the music or hearing the sound system. Execution of the sound.

And yes, you want the "soundstage" and the envelopment of the sound around you.

d

[mdpm99]

Center Channel

L/R signal fed into mono amp. Cable has resisters
inside. It will automatically drop 6 db which is what you want. Go to theloftnyc.com and l@@k under Loft audio papers

Also, if a system is set up correctly you would be surprised what results you can get at Class B level ...and not have to spend a lot of money.

d

[muel]

Aha, so the connection on the cables sums LT & RT and has resisters to drop the level by 6dB "before the amp"? (is this what your saying, or does the amp do this?
Just want to make sure I am clear.
In your audio papers you have the sound reinforcement speakers droped by -3dB each, is this done on the cable(before the amp) as well?
Also I was wondering how you run the signal out to the amps from the phono pre? Does the phono pre have a few speaker out's?

Thank you for taking the time out to answer our questions David you have been of great help. ;)

[ July 19, 2003, 07:43 PM: Message edited by: muel ]

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by muel:
Aha, so the connection on the cables sums LT & RT and has resisters to drop the level by 6dB "before the amp"? (is this what your saying, or does the amp do this?
Just want to make sure I am clear.
In your audio papers you have the sound reinforcement speakers droped by -3dB each, is this done on the cable(before the amp) as well?
Also I was wondering how you run the signal out to the amps from the phono pre? Does the phono pre have a few speaker out's?

Thank you for taking the time out to answer our questions David you have been of great help. ;) Greetings muel:

There is a line going from the pre amp and or a mixer to a dividing network. There are 3 outputs.
One is for the Front L/R spks. One is for the center channel L/R(Mono), and one is for the side channels L/R spks. Each output has a level control (to within 1/10 of a db) and is supported by a line amp (within the dividing network) The side channels go thru 2 mono delays -- one for each channel and then to the amp. I set the levels at the delays at halfway -- both for input and output.


Re the resistors for the line L/R - Mono....it just so happens that one of the results is that it drops automatically to minus -6db. None of the amps have level controls....they are all class A.

Should there be any confusion...let me know.

d

[ July 19, 2003, 10:53 PM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[muel]

Im not familiar with dividing networks are they like the units used in live concerts that split the audio for both main mix and monitor mix?

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by muel:
Im not familiar with dividing networks are they like the units used in live concerts that split the audio for both main mix and monitor mix? It is a very simple devise that has a line in and 3 lines out. Each line has a line amp - Each line amp is the size of a brick.

It runs on low voltage/DC

smile.gif

d

[alex zen]

somebody give david his own forum graemlins/respekt.gif

[Bobby L]

Originally posted by alexander james zen:
somebody give david his own forum graemlins/respekt.gif graemlins/beerchug.gif

[muel]

graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[Hippie]

I'd like to have for my dream system a set of DVD/CD players that also play ACC and AAC files. graemlins/OLA.gif

[john]

Originally posted by muel:
Hey Jolyon,
I was never good at physics either mainly because I was always goofing around.
:rolleyes:
Im thinking that the reason you could have a conversation still is that (unlike most club systems that are being over worked) Davids system would have very little distortion, that I think is the main reason we normally cant hear each other talk in a club.
As for the speakers, Im guessing they have been set up correctly in regards to the room and each other and are acting like one big headphone, with you in the middle.

P.S
I checked out your balearic mix, I like it, I forgot about that Pigbag track(very nice). smile.gif It´s basic sound/wave-physics.

First of all regarding decibel:
if soundintensity doubles the loudness does not increase by a factor 2. To produce an apparent doubling in loudness the soundintensity must be increased by a factor 10.

the intensities human ear can hear rage from 10^-12 watts/m^2 to 1 Watts/m^2. (a factor 10^12)

it´s therefore convenient to specify the INTENSITY level (y) in terms of the (dB) wich is defined as y=10log(I/I0) where I is measured intensity and I0 is some reference value.

If one takes I0 to be 10^-12watts/m^2 then the threshold of hearing corresponds to
y=10log1 = 0dB

If sound from one source reaches a particular position with intensity I1 and another source is placed next to the first (theres no fixed phase relation between the sources) the change in intensity level is 3 dB.

mathematical explanation..

the initial intensity = I1
the final intensity = I2

y1=10log(I1/I0) Y2=10log(I2/I0)

the level change is Y2-Y1

Y2-Y1=10log(I2/I1)= 10log(2/1)=10log2 = 3dB

note: log(A/B) = logA-logB

:D

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by john:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by muel:
Hey Jolyon,
I was never good at physics either mainly because I was always goofing around.
:rolleyes:
Im thinking that the reason you could have a conversation still is that (unlike most club systems that are being over worked) Davids system would have very little distortion, that I think is the main reason we normally cant hear each other talk in a club.
As for the speakers, Im guessing they have been set up correctly in regards to the room and each other and are acting like one big headphone, with you in the middle.

P.S
I checked out your balearic mix, I like it, I forgot about that Pigbag track(very nice). smile.gif It´s basic sound/wave-physics.

First of all regarding decibel:
if soundintensity doubles the loudness does not increase by a factor 2. To produce an apparent doubling in loudness the soundintensity must be increased by a factor 10.

the intensities human ear can hear rage from 10^-12 watts/m^2 to 1 Watts/m^2. (a factor 10^12)

it´s therefore convenient to specify the INTENSITY level (y) in terms of the (dB) wich is defined as y=10log(I/I0) where I is measured intensity and I0 is some reference value.

If one takes I0 to be 10^-12watts/m^2 then the threshold of hearing corresponds to
y=10log1 = 0dB

If sound from one source reaches a particular position with intensity I1 and another source is placed next to the first (theres no fixed phase relation between the sources) the change in intensity level is 3 dB.

mathematical explanation..

the initial intensity = I1
the final intensity = I2

y1=10log(I1/I0) Y2=10log(I2/I0)

the level change is Y2-Y1

Y2-Y1=10log(I2/I1)= 10log(2/1)=10log2 = 3dB

note: log(A/B) = logA-logB

:D </font>[/QUOTE]Greetings John:

My graemlins/respekt.gif to you. Your infomation is correct and helpful.

Would like to have a direct chat with you one day!

smile.gif

d

[Javier Drada]

Originally posted by john:
It´s basic sound/wave-physics.

First of all regarding decibel:
if soundintensity doubles the loudness does not increase by a factor 2. To produce an apparent doubling in loudness the soundintensity must be increased by a factor 10.

the intensities human ear can hear rage from 10^-12 watts/m^2 to 1 Watts/m^2. (a factor 10^12)

it´s therefore convenient to specify the INTENSITY level (y) in terms of the (dB) wich is defined as y=10log(I/I0) where I is measured intensity and I0 is some reference value.

If one takes I0 to be 10^-12watts/m^2 then the threshold of hearing corresponds to
y=10log1 = 0dB

If sound from one source reaches a particular position with intensity I1 and another source is placed next to the first (theres no fixed phase relation between the sources) the change in intensity level is 3 dB.

mathematical explanation..

the initial intensity = I1
the final intensity = I2

y1=10log(I1/I0) Y2=10log(I2/I0)

the level change is Y2-Y1

Y2-Y1=10log(I2/I1)= 10log(2/1)=10log2 = 3dB

note: log(A/B) = logA-logB

:D Dude you just gave me a headache... graemlins/scared.gif