House music must change or die: Nick Holder

[jimmymack-2000]

Cover story in today's NOW Magazine, Toronto, Canada (http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2003-10-23/cover_story.php):


"I had to do something different," says Holder, sitting in his busy Scarborough studio. "I'd already put out four full-length house albums and I really wanted to do something that wasn't house. I think I was afraid to start this album. I spent almost a year thinking about it. The label (NRK) told me that people don't want to hear a whole album of house any more, but also wanted me to include some because that's how people know me."

"Everything you can do with house has pretty much already been done. There are only so many options with a straight four-on-the-floor beat. I don't actually listen to house these days except for when I do my radio show or I'm playing a gig."

---

...in some ways the disc itself comes across as a challenge to the underground house scene. It dares the scene to break away from its conservative definitions of deep dance music.

This is the kind of re-evaluation that needs to happen. The underground dance music industry, and house in particular, is going through some of the toughest times since its inception.

"There's definitely a slump going on. Since 9/11, everything has slowed down. Suddenly, we were having trouble getting paid by our distributors, and a bunch of big labels have shut down. I actually had to move my DNH label to England this year. There are a lot of reasons: downloading is affecting things, people have less money, and records are really expensive these days. Back in the 90s, the average person still had a turntable, so it wasn't just DJs buying vinyl. Now most listeners would rather just download the songs."

---

"There are too many DJs and not enough people who want to hear them. Too much of the 19-to-30 crowd has gone over to that BET vibe, and new people aren't coming in. When the whole rave thing stopped, the rest of the scene slowed down, too. In the past people would come into house as they grew out of the rave thing, but since that was shut down young people have no way into it."

---

Maybe all it takes is for more of the old guard to come out with statements like this album, in which house is re-integrated into the larger context of North American urban music. The genre Nazis have been in control for too long. Looking at the parties. It's obvious that the audience is ready to move on to a wider appreciation of music.

[ October 23, 2003, 11:32 AM: Message edited by: jimmymack-2000 ]

[GROOVE VICTIM]

we all should read this

[mhd]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
we all should read this why? heard it all before, ad infinitum, the funeral was last week

[TAC]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
we all should read this why? heard it all before, ad infinitum, the funeral was last week </font>[/QUOTE]Some people are just passing through. Let them keep moving...

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
we all should read this why? heard it all before, ad infinitum, the funeral was last week </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly, but many of us are still feeding into the garbage being thrown towards us week after week, month after month by DJs and Most producers.

[Jay Rags]

Awe maaaaannnn. Not this again. If House does die, graemlins/acclaim.gif it will only die when my generation dies. I'll be 50,60 yrs old still listening to House music.

[Cheddar]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
we all should read this why? heard it all before, ad infinitum, the funeral was last week </font>[/QUOTE]Furthermore was this his idea or as he casually stated "The LABEL" didnt want another House album?

[simon b]

If Nick Holder said it, than it must be the the TRUTH!!!!

Just like people telling me house music is dying just because their parties are no longer appealing to anyone....

:rolleyes:

[ivanjb]

What's wrong with a more eclectic approach but still having house in the mix? Remember that crazy Coldcut mix? Or the way Norman Jay, Bob Jones or Gilles P play at clubs? My friends and I always play eclectic sets and find a straight hour of fourxfour boring as hell.

I like the way he describes the public's move towards modern Hip Hop and "BET stuff". It makes me want to get out of here and move to Europe.

On that note, I just got a box of 14 new house records in the mail. The most house I've bought in a while. Some of the best stuff IMO in a while is coming out these past couple months.

[ October 23, 2003, 01:23 PM: Message edited by: ivanjb ]

[Bill Blake]

Who said house is 'a straight four-on-the-floor beat'?

[DLow]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Who said house is 'a straight four-on-the-floor beat'? There's some MAW work that comes to mind that is not.

If you've been into house for a good amount of time, do you think it could be that your tastes have simply outgrown house music? Maybe you just do not like it anymore. It's possible.

[D J 1 3 8]

house = 120 bpm only

[ivanjb]

If you're asking me, I'm referencing what he said in the article. Usually I'm thinking fourxfour when I use the word house. I'm not trying to define the word but reply to the article. I know you could say it's every good genre.

[dj c-los]

House IS constantly changing.
Its now filtered and techy. It definately doesn't sound like the way it did 5, 10 and 15 years ago but it's changing with time. If you're an older cat that hasn't accepted the change then it may be dead to you.
IMO
no hate, just love

[drilla]

who is nick holder?

and for the hundreth time, what is house music?

[ramar]

House music is growing when the music is founded on unique and sincere artistry. inventiveness is part & parcel with that.

[ October 23, 2003, 01:48 PM: Message edited by: ramar ]

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by matthew j:

what is house music? Haha - good point.

I just think change is good. There is still great house coming out but also other stuff that plays well with it. I love it all! He has to make statements like this in the press to explain the change of direction.

His music is incredible.

[ October 23, 2003, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: ivanjb ]

[dj c-los]

Originally posted by matthew j:
who is nick holder?

and for the hundreth time, what is house music? House music is that rhythm that makes you wanna jerk your neck, lift your rump and stomp your feet.
Makes you look like this:

graemlins/cheering.gif

[ivanjb]

I want to lift my rump.

[drilla]

Originally posted by clos7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by matthew j:
who is nick holder?

and for the hundreth time, what is house music? House music is that rhythm that makes you wanna jerk your neck, lift your rump and stomp your feet.
Makes you look like this:

graemlins/cheering.gif </font>[/QUOTE]for the record, i look alot cooler when i move my body to house music that that smily. ;)

i heard of nick holder..just not sure what he has done...

ramar and ivanjb...yeah, i agree

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by ramar:
if you ask me, someone who states that everything has been done in House or any other field is discounting unique artistry in favour of a merely technical analysis (which is flawed anyway as it relies on his imagination being in common with everyone elses).

RMR Yes! I hear that. The canvas is set and there is no end to what can be done.

I agree mostly with his points that we have to integrate young people back into this music with a mix of stuff that's more accessible along with straight up house.

[Jamie 3:26]

F.uck House....these discussions are becoming boring and lame.How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music.I don't care what the hell it is,what ya wanna call it,just beat the damn box and let what's coming thru the speakers talk for you.

[kev]

Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
F.uck House....these discussions are becoming boring and lame.How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music.I don't care what the hell it is,what ya wanna call it,just beat the damn box and let what's coming thru the speakers talk for you. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music. I think we all agree with that, but this time the comment is coming from a producer whose work I really respect. It's more interesting to me to respond to this than to "the longest thread ever" or some photo thread crap.

[Jamie 3:26]

Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music. I think we all agree with that, but this time the comment is coming from a producer whose work I really respect. It's more interesting to me to respond to this than to "the longest thread ever" or some photo thread crap. </font>[/QUOTE]It don't matter if DJ Jesus said that shit.You don't think he may have said that shit just to sell records do ya?

Like I said it don'tmatter,this shit is getting tired.So f.ucking what a big producer says it's dying,yet he is still making it??Hmmm,sounds like a mind game to me...

This is how I honestly feel about this whole subject...."It sucks hairy soggy doggy balls.."

"F U C K H O U S E "

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by ivanjb:
What's wrong with a more eclectic approach but still having house in the mix? Remember that crazy Coldcut mix? Or the way Norman Jay, Bob Jones or Gilles P play at clubs? My friends and I always play eclectic sets and find a straight hour of fourxfour boring as hell.

I like the way he describes the public's move towards modern Hip Hop and "BET stuff". It makes me want to get out of here and move to Europe.

On that note, I just got a box of 14 new house records in the mail. The most house I've bought in a while. Some of the best stuff IMO in a while is coming out these past couple months. There's nothing wrong with this concept and I agree with you 100% on your comments. The problems is that there are too many DJs out there who are not willing to "CHANGE" the scene for the better.

[Cheddar]

Originally posted by 1343:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
we all should read this why? heard it all before, ad infinitum, the funeral was last week </font>[/QUOTE]Furthermore was this his idea or as he casually stated "The LABEL" didnt want another House album? </font>[/QUOTE]Bump

[drilla]

Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music. I think we all agree with that, but this time the comment is coming from a producer whose work I really respect. It's more interesting to me to respond to this than to "the longest thread ever" or some photo thread crap. </font>[/QUOTE]It don't matter if DJ Jesus said that shit.You don't think he may have said that shit just to sell records do ya?

Like I said it don'tmatter,this shit is getting tired.So f.ucking what a big producer says it's dying,yet he is still making it??Hmmm,sounds like a mind game to me...

This is how I honestly feel about this whole subject...."It sucks hairy soggy doggy balls.."

"F U C K H O U S E " </font>[/QUOTE]hahahahaha...this was funny.

but, ivan is right man...this is a house music messageboard...this what we are suppose to talk about.

[drilla]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
What's wrong with a more eclectic approach but still having house in the mix? Remember that crazy Coldcut mix? Or the way Norman Jay, Bob Jones or Gilles P play at clubs? My friends and I always play eclectic sets and find a straight hour of fourxfour boring as hell.

I like the way he describes the public's move towards modern Hip Hop and "BET stuff". It makes me want to get out of here and move to Europe.

On that note, I just got a box of 14 new house records in the mail. The most house I've bought in a while. Some of the best stuff IMO in a while is coming out these past couple months. There's nothing wrong with this concept and I agree with you 100% on your comments. The problems is that there are too many DJs out there who are not willing to "CHANGE" the scene for the better. </font>[/QUOTE]like who? what is better, in your opinion?

[Jamie 3:26]

I know that Matt,but the whole this shit is dying and so forth is lame.Do some shit to change things,I'd respect that over a disecting discussion on how things are/were.

What is being done to insure a future for this dying artform?

Who is on the frontlines fighting?

Who is willing to make sacrifices?


Crickets.......

[dj c-los]

Originally posted by matthew j:
who is nick holder?

and for the hundreth time, what is house music? HOUSE MUSIC MAKES YOU MOVE!
YOU SEE WHAT HOUSE DID TO THESE YUPPIES! http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/pics/mayhem@@/dancing.jpg

[CG63]

Originally posted by matthew j:
what is house music? House Music is when you put your stereo speakers in the window of your house and pump the music for the neighborhood. :D

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by matthew j:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
What's wrong with a more eclectic approach but still having house in the mix? Remember that crazy Coldcut mix? Or the way Norman Jay, Bob Jones or Gilles P play at clubs? My friends and I always play eclectic sets and find a straight hour of fourxfour boring as hell.

I like the way he describes the public's move towards modern Hip Hop and "BET stuff". It makes me want to get out of here and move to Europe.

On that note, I just got a box of 14 new house records in the mail. The most house I've bought in a while. Some of the best stuff IMO in a while is coming out these past couple months. There's nothing wrong with this concept and I agree with you 100% on your comments. The problems is that there are too many DJs out there who are not willing to "CHANGE" the scene for the better. </font>[/QUOTE]like who? what is better, in your opinion? </font>[/QUOTE]It will have to be a very slow process. We have to be able to "edutain" the people and be able to get people who don't listen or like our music to open their minds up and see that there is some common ground that was once shared by Dance and other genres of music. It starts with the producers who are willing to step it up a notch, and it also starts with the DJs who are willing to broaden their scope of musical tastes and choices.

Peac

[drilla]

Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
I know that Matt,but the whole this shit is dying and so forth is lame.Do some shit to change things,I'd respect that over a disecting discussion on how things are/were.

What is being done to insure a future for this dying artform?

Who is on the frontlines fighting?

Who is willing to make sacrifices?


Crickets....... gotcha! i agree with you man...one way of keeping it alive is by playing it, and playing it well...don't half step when you have a gig...do everything you are meant to do, even if only one person in the place is dancing...send that mofo on a journey!

i can dig that.

[drilla]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by matthew j:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
What's wrong with a more eclectic approach but still having house in the mix? Remember that crazy Coldcut mix? Or the way Norman Jay, Bob Jones or Gilles P play at clubs? My friends and I always play eclectic sets and find a straight hour of fourxfour boring as hell.

I like the way he describes the public's move towards modern Hip Hop and "BET stuff". It makes me want to get out of here and move to Europe.

On that note, I just got a box of 14 new house records in the mail. The most house I've bought in a while. Some of the best stuff IMO in a while is coming out these past couple months. There's nothing wrong with this concept and I agree with you 100% on your comments. The problems is that there are too many DJs out there who are not willing to "CHANGE" the scene for the better. </font>[/QUOTE]like who? what is better, in your opinion? </font>[/QUOTE]It will have to be a very slow process. We have to be able to "edutain" the people and be able to get people who don't listen or like our music to open their minds up and see that there is some common ground that was once shared by Dance and other genres of music. It starts with the producers who are willing to step it up a notch, and it also starts with the DJs who are willing to broaden their scope of musical tastes and choices.

Peac </font>[/QUOTE]i got four thugged out hiphoppers to dig on house music not too long ago.

chalk up four more heads from me!

[GROOVE VICTIM]

It's a start Matthew!!

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:


What is being done to insure a future for this dying artform?

Who is on the frontlines fighting?

Who is willing to make sacrifices?

Now you're talking!

I'm doing my best to let the music do the talking and I love this artform. I play out and throw house parties all the time where I live. Believe me, I beg people to go when it gets thin. I don't think it's dying, I think it has way too much merit to just die.

My involvement in the thread was to be positive and say that there may be ways to garner interest to different crowds and being eclectic migh help.

Trying to look at Nick's comments in sa different way.

[mhd]

matthew dropping knowledge today, must be a full moon

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by clos7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by matthew j:
who is nick holder?

and for the hundreth time, what is house music? HOUSE MUSIC MAKES YOU MOVE!
YOU SEE WHAT HOUSE DID TO THESE YUPPIES! http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/pics/mayhem@@/dancing.jpg </font>[/QUOTE]That photo rules.

[DeesKo]

There's a whole lot of soul required to fill in those spaces between this 4 and that 4...

...some people ain't got it and are constantly looking elsewhere to find SOMETHING that can fill it in for em.

thats my opinion.


Peace

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by matthew j:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by matthew j:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
What's wrong with a more eclectic approach but still having house in the mix? Remember that crazy Coldcut mix? Or the way Norman Jay, Bob Jones or Gilles P play at clubs? My friends and I always play eclectic sets and find a straight hour of fourxfour boring as hell.

I like the way he describes the public's move towards modern Hip Hop and "BET stuff". It makes me want to get out of here and move to Europe.

On that note, I just got a box of 14 new house records in the mail. The most house I've bought in a while. Some of the best stuff IMO in a while is coming out these past couple months. There's nothing wrong with this concept and I agree with you 100% on your comments. The problems is that there are too many DJs out there who are not willing to "CHANGE" the scene for the better. </font>[/QUOTE]like who? what is better, in your opinion? </font>[/QUOTE]It will have to be a very slow process. We have to be able to "edutain" the people and be able to get people who don't listen or like our music to open their minds up and see that there is some common ground that was once shared by Dance and other genres of music. It starts with the producers who are willing to step it up a notch, and it also starts with the DJs who are willing to broaden their scope of musical tastes and choices.

Peac </font>[/QUOTE]i got four thugged out hiphoppers to dig on house music not too long ago.

chalk up four more heads from me! </font>[/QUOTE]House is the fifth element.

[drilla]

Originally posted by mhd:
matthew dropping knowledge today, must be a full moon i drop knowledge everyday...you're just always around to pick it up. ;)

[drilla]

Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by matthew j:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by matthew j:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
What's wrong with a more eclectic approach but still having house in the mix? Remember that crazy Coldcut mix? Or the way Norman Jay, Bob Jones or Gilles P play at clubs? My friends and I always play eclectic sets and find a straight hour of fourxfour boring as hell.

I like the way he describes the public's move towards modern Hip Hop and "BET stuff". It makes me want to get out of here and move to Europe.

On that note, I just got a box of 14 new house records in the mail. The most house I've bought in a while. Some of the best stuff IMO in a while is coming out these past couple months. There's nothing wrong with this concept and I agree with you 100% on your comments. The problems is that there are too many DJs out there who are not willing to "CHANGE" the scene for the better. </font>[/QUOTE]like who? what is better, in your opinion? </font>[/QUOTE]It will have to be a very slow process. We have to be able to "edutain" the people and be able to get people who don't listen or like our music to open their minds up and see that there is some common ground that was once shared by Dance and other genres of music. It starts with the producers who are willing to step it up a notch, and it also starts with the DJs who are willing to broaden their scope of musical tastes and choices.

Peac </font>[/QUOTE]i got four thugged out hiphoppers to dig on house music not too long ago.

chalk up four more heads from me! </font>[/QUOTE]House is the fifth element. </font>[/QUOTE]oh snap...don't go there

[DLow]

The potential is there. I had some DC go-go heads movin off of some house in my car. Anyone that's from DC knows this is not easy. If we keep playin the music, someone will dance.

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by matthew j:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by matthew j:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by matthew j:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
What's wrong with a more eclectic approach but still having house in the mix? Remember that crazy Coldcut mix? Or the way Norman Jay, Bob Jones or Gilles P play at clubs? My friends and I always play eclectic sets and find a straight hour of fourxfour boring as hell.

I like the way he describes the public's move towards modern Hip Hop and "BET stuff". It makes me want to get out of here and move to Europe.

On that note, I just got a box of 14 new house records in the mail. The most house I've bought in a while. Some of the best stuff IMO in a while is coming out these past couple months. There's nothing wrong with this concept and I agree with you 100% on your comments. The problems is that there are too many DJs out there who are not willing to "CHANGE" the scene for the better. </font>[/QUOTE]like who? what is better, in your opinion? </font>[/QUOTE]It will have to be a very slow process. We have to be able to "edutain" the people and be able to get people who don't listen or like our music to open their minds up and see that there is some common ground that was once shared by Dance and other genres of music. It starts with the producers who are willing to step it up a notch, and it also starts with the DJs who are willing to broaden their scope of musical tastes and choices.

Peac </font>[/QUOTE]i got four thugged out hiphoppers to dig on house music not too long ago.

chalk up four more heads from me! </font>[/QUOTE]House is the fifth element. </font>[/QUOTE]oh snap...don't go there </font>[/QUOTE]LOL

[ivanjb]

Nick Holder "Love Is Blind"

That is some house music.

[Bill Blake]

Whatever, I just had to hear that 'on my mind' shit at dancetracks.....talk about killing house...

He should check himself.

[DeesKo]

Its one thing to say you want to make an album of other stuff to explore new realms of your own personal creativity, or because you're at a loss over how to lay another accapella from the civil rights movement over a house beat without it sounding like every other successful song you've ever done, or because you're just in a different place right now musically...

thats cool, actually, its respectable from an artist perspective but to claim you're doing it to save house music is just yanking your own chain.

Peace

[darrow]

Originally posted by DeesKo:
Its one thing to say you want to make an album of other stuff to explore new realms of your own personal creativity, or because you're at a loss over how to lay another accapella from the civil rights movement over a house beat without it sounding like every other successful song you've ever done, or because you're just in a different place right now musically...

thats cool, actually, its respectable from an artist perspective but to claim you're doing it to save house music is just yanking your own chain.

Peace Nick does all those releases on DNH, right? They do all sound the same to me.

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Whatever, I just had to hear that 'on my mind' shit at dancetracks.....talk about killing house...

He should check himself. Is that the album?

I never liked his albums. But the DNH singles over that last 10+ years are dope.

[Bill Blake]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz LOL

[dj c-los]

House ain't givin up, House ain't gonna stop, we'll keep reaching for, rechin for the top!

graemlins/cheering.gif

[ October 26, 2003, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Gman ]

[mhd]

Originally posted by Derrick:
The potential is there. I had some DC go-go heads movin off of some house in my car. Anyone that's from DC knows this is not easy. If we keep playin the music, someone will dance. beg to differ, bruh, you are in dc right? are you from dc?

[JAMES74]

Don't blame it all on downloading,I always believed that to get bootlegged is a inside job.But more importantly,People are less creative and take a lot of shortcuts and their music reflects that.TOO MANY REMAKES!!!STOP IT.IF IT AIN'T BROKE DON'T TRY TO FIX IT!!!! graemlins/cussing.gif

[erd]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Whatever, I just had to hear that 'on my mind' shit at dancetracks.....talk about killing house...

He should check himself. Yes, he should.

Peace.

Gerd

[andrea]

i hope Nick doesn't stop producing. Keep making that sensual house music Nick! I will definitely keep buying.

House will NEVER die...


andrea

[boogiedown]

Just read the thread...

Is Nick going with the flow of the contemporary music landscape or does it matter?

How do you destroy a genre of music?

-don't play it on the radio or tv
-stop producing it
-stop playing it at the clubs
-stop promoting events with that music
-stop talking about it in the press, etc.
-push other music at the record shops
-shut down online sites that play it


...that's all I can think of right now.
House music will always be there as long as the
opposite of the above points continue.

...ie. wasn't disco destroyed so to speak way
back when? anything is possible.

[Cookiehead Jenkins]

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Cover story in today's NOW Magazine, Toronto, Canada (http://www.nowtoronto.com/issues/2003-10-23/cover_story.php):


"I had to do something different," says Holder, sitting in his busy Scarborough studio. "I'd already put out four full-length house albums and I really wanted to do something that wasn't house. I think I was afraid to start this album. I spent almost a year thinking about it. The label (NRK) told me that people don't want to hear a whole album of house any more, but also wanted me to include some because that's how people know me."

"Everything you can do with house has pretty much already been done. There are only so many options with a straight four-on-the-floor beat. I don't actually listen to house these days except for when I do my radio show or I'm playing a gig."

---

...in some ways the disc itself comes across as a challenge to the underground house scene. It dares the scene to break away from its conservative definitions of deep dance music.

This is the kind of re-evaluation that needs to happen. The underground dance music industry, and house in particular, is going through some of the toughest times since its inception.

"There's definitely a slump going on. Since 9/11, everything has slowed down. Suddenly, we were having trouble getting paid by our distributors, and a bunch of big labels have shut down. I actually had to move my DNH label to England this year. There are a lot of reasons: downloading is affecting things, people have less money, and records are really expensive these days. Back in the 90s, the average person still had a turntable, so it wasn't just DJs buying vinyl. Now most listeners would rather just download the songs."

---

"There are too many DJs and not enough people who want to hear them. Too much of the 19-to-30 crowd has gone over to that BET vibe, and new people aren't coming in. When the whole rave thing stopped, the rest of the scene slowed down, too. In the past people would come into house as they grew out of the rave thing, but since that was shut down young people have no way into it."

---

Maybe all it takes is for more of the old guard to come out with statements like this album, in which house is re-integrated into the larger context of North American urban music. The genre Nazis have been in control for too long. Looking at the parties. It's obvious that the audience is ready to move on to a wider appreciation of music. Nick Holder? Shit, it might as well be Nick Numbers making such comments.

Why doesn't everyone just listen to "Ghetto" and get it over with? Ghetto should never get old because the whole entire world seems to stay the same.

The whole world is a ghetto.

If I were ruler of the world I'd declare that all musicians had to make Ghetto music and have a minimum of 10 dirty words in their songs.

[El Mayimbe]

Originally posted by IIBS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
F.uck House....these discussions are becoming boring and lame.How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music.I don't care what the hell it is,what ya wanna call it,just beat the damn box and let what's coming thru the speakers talk for you. graemlins/thumbsup.gif </font>[/QUOTE]me 3!

the market is saturated, things will become efficient, house music will still survive.
Its a good issue Holder brought up, but nothing short of what this site and many other people have been saying for a long time.
nuff said

[Chris Conrad]

Hit the brakes a second folks...before the "house ain't dead, come on ya'll" lovefest continues, did anybody besides about 2 people actually read this interview, especially this part:

"It's not just radically declining sales that have Holder worried. DJ bookings are sparser as well, although he's been playing in Toronto more than in the past. There's still a local scene, but it's shrunk noticeably over the past two years. He attributes the phenomenon in part to a generation gap between those who grew up partying in warehouses and those who grew up on the dance party from music videos.

"There are too many DJs and not enough people who want to hear them. Too much of the 19-to-30 crowd has gone over to that BET vibe, and new people aren't coming in. When the whole rave thing stopped, the rest of the scene slowed down, too. In the past people would come into house as they grew out of the rave thing, but since that was shut down young people have no way into it."

At one point it wouldn't have been so strange for someone to go from being a hiphop head to getting into house – the two were more connected in the days before rave. Holder himself started out as a hiphop fan but was introduced to house by his neighbours the Assoon brothers, who opened up an all-night club called the Twilight Zone. The Zone served as ground zero for the first generation of Toronto house – all the original producers and DJs started out or got their first taste there.

Hiphop is still Holder's first love. It's what he plays in his car and at home. When he plays overseas, he gets away with including some hiphop. Ironically, it's locally that he gets typecast as Mr. House Music. It's strange that the mainstream clubs can mix genres and tempos but the underground is usually strict and segregated."

Key phrases in case you don't read it in the above excerpt to remember are:

"...generation gap..."

"Too much of the 19-to-30 crowd has gone over to that BET vibe"

"...young people have no way into it"

"...it wouldn't have been so strange for someone to go from being a hiphop head to getting into house – the two were more connected in the days before rave"

"It's strange that the mainstream clubs can mix genres and tempos but the underground is usually strict and segregated."

[Nege]

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
Key phrases in case you don't read it in the above excerpt to remember are:

"...generation gap..."

"Too much of the 19-to-30 crowd has gone over to that BET vibe"

"...young people have no way into it"

"...it wouldn't have been so strange for someone to go from being a hiphop head to getting into house – the two were more connected in the days before rave"

"It's strange that the mainstream clubs can mix genres and tempos but the underground is usually strict and segregated." These points have always been brought up before,
on these message boards or discussions.
but they always seem to be denied or ignored.
the truth hurts.
doesn't it?

[ October 26, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Nege ]

[Chris Conrad]

I read this thread with great interest because I haven't read this board in about a week due to day job commitments(yeah, like Nick Holder said, the gigs aren't there anymore) and I wanted to see what was up on the 'house boards' after a particularly inspiring weekend.

On Friday night a good friend calls me and asks for my help in going through a collection he obtained, to help him catalog what he obtained and integrate it into his own record collection and sort out triple copies, etc.. I told him I wasn't really up for it, I had received several stacks of promos in the last few weeks, and sad to say most of them were throw aways and could be classified into about three categories...I think I only kept a handful of records...there were your wanna be MAW/Bongo Joe records that sound like EVERYTHING being played in NYC right now, filtered disco house from obscure European labels who think that it is still a fresh sound for that particular sub genre, and vocal house records with divas who moan and scream for the entire length of the record demonstrating their vocal range but not really singing about anything in particular or intelligible. I think in one or two records you may have been able to make out the words 'Lord' and God' over the screaming and moaning. Anyway, I reluctantly went over to my friend's place to help him with this task, making it very clear I was tired of listening to house records and would have preferred a weekend of hearing NO music at all. So we start going through the two collections, his and the one he bought, and there was a ton of gems, mostly from the 80's into the early 90's...What started out as a chore and favor turned into an all night jam session of almost every pre house and house classic ever made. We took turns on the decks, and by early morning, records were everywhere, all over the room, you literally couldn't walk. EVERY damn record up until a certain point in time was good...I was going bananas to each and every one and flooded with memories, as was he. I had more fun that night than I have had at any party in the last year or so. It all came together for me, the feeling I miss, the bump of the music, the weird ass records I loved hearing, the constant progression of the music over time, all the people I used to see at parties, and more importantly...the DANCERS. We got into a discussion about dancing and dancing styles, and how most parties these days lack serious dancers or dance crews getting down to club music. So my friend remembers he had just got a new DVD the day before and hadn't watched it yet...'The Freshest Kids', which is a documentary about B-Boy Culture, Breakin' and Hip Hop. I won't go into detail, as everyone should see this movie..but everything that was said in the movie regarding what happened to the B-Boy culture and Hip Hop can be applied directly to House culture as well. If you haven't seen it yet, go see it, buy it, etc...

I woke up the next day freshly inspired, and was in the neighborhood while running errands of a local audio/record shop, and stopped in to say hello. I got into an interesting discussion with my friend there while catching up on local gossip...how all these new clubs are popping up (in regards to New Jersey), people getting gigs, their own nights, people playing again...but...nobody is really dancing...even at the mainstream parrties playing hip hop and progressive house at all these new spots,nobody is really dancing...I agreed, as over the summer I played a series of local venues, some very nice venues with good sound, and nobody was feelign any music, whether it was me playing house, or the local resident joker playing hip hop mp3's and KTU muscle boy house...and how a nice new venue opened up just 2 miles from my house, claiming to be yet another 'New York City Style Club' with top dj's, and it's been packed, but guess what, nobody really gets down in the place...it's a mixture of local meathead muscle boys, the fake blonde girls with platform shoes they are there to try to hook up with, and the local thugs who are their for the hip hop, looking all hard and rough when it's a QUIET SUBURB. So the same guy I'm talking to says, "yeah, i'm gonna give it another 5-10 years before I quit"...mind you, this guys is in his 30's!!! So then it all finally came together for me, things I have been preaching for years but never followed myself...the genrational gap in the club scene really hit me, the things I outlined in the Nick Holder article really hit home.

One of the best things I did this year I kept quiet about...I held down a local residency for about 6 months early this year at a local spot, a hole in the wall bar in a college town 15 minutes from me, with a portable sounnd system that barely worked. At first I had the same ideas for a party like anyone else on these boards...but then after a few nights there, I saw an element of people I wanted to grow there, and stopped advertising the night on the message boards. Why did I do that? I didn't want any 'heads' there, or other local dj's...that would mean being lmited to what I am allowed to play or supposed to play. You see, I'm tired of the history lessons, the categorizing of what I am supposed to play as a dj that is a part of a certain label and an alleged part of a certain scene. I wanted to test myself also...apart from two other dj's who played with me on a rotating basis and the guy promoting the party, nobody knew who the hell I was or did. We all kept it to ourselves and promoted locally only. I played for complete strangers. What happened in the months ahead was inspiring. It was a long start, but at the end, I had a regular group of dancers coming every week, break dancers, hardcore dancers, dancing to house music and other genres I was playing. And I got away with murder...I had no rules to follow, no 'heads' to cater to, no other dj's to kiss my ass to try to play there and then talk sh*t behind my back and diss me when I'm not around...the nights would often start with 'deep house' and end completely differently...sometimes straight up techno, hip hop, classics...I once played some 'swing house' records and had people doing dance routines to those records...it was as if I was at the Tunnel or original Sound Factory back in the day, or the old Jersey parties with the groups of dancers we would watch. And, guess what, downstairs, we had a hip hop DJ...to draw people in...and towards the end, they would filter upstairs and some would even get into the house, and say, "damn, I haven't heard sh*t like this in years!" and no, i absolutley did not play any jersey standards such as 'follow me' and 'percolator', ever. The party did not last because as the crowd grew, the owner got nervous, people doing flips in the middle of tha bar, crap liek that, and he never liked my crowd, and made it a point to tell me. one or two minor incidents in the hip hop room didn't help either, and after a six month run, the party ended. other venues in the same area were all doing bullsh*t commercial nights already, and declined to take in an 'underground' night. I made almost no money at the place, my pay amounting to gas money, and in fact I lost money, around a grand, contributing to adding to the sound system and buying an extra mixer to take with me weekly. Some of you may say its not worth it, but I learned a lot from it and it rejuvinated me from the rut I was stuck in musically for over a year. I would do it again if I had the chance.

So, after an inspirational weekend and collecting my thoughts about the party I just wrote about I was involved with, I come onto the message boards to see what's going on in my 'scene' I allegedly belong to. A few good threads here and there about actual music and what not...then I come on here. I find the usual non music related threads that continue for ages, a thread about ONE Kerri Chandler track, several pages of people debating about ONE f*ckin' track that is coming out by him and why we should like it, and this thread about Nick Holder and his views on the 'state of house'. And after reading the interview and the responses, I find the same responses, same 'house ain't dead' comments, same lovefest, same producers used as examples that house ain't dead, and a general downplaying of the interview. And before anyone gets started with me, I'm not defending Nick Holder's own music, as I don't particularly like most of it, but his comments about the scene and how he got into it really hit home, because its the same way I got into house music about 16-17 years ago. I think people failed to read the comments I pointed out earlier. Think what you want of the man and his productions, but what he said that I pointed out myself and others have been saying for a long time.

If you want a good idea of the state of house, you don't even need to read that interview now that I think about it...all you need to do is read your own comments and threads, they speak volumes about the 'state of the house scene'.

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music. I think we all agree with that, but this time the comment is coming from a producer whose work I really respect. It's more interesting to me to respond to this than to "the longest thread ever" or some photo thread crap. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't diss other threads.

[Chris Conrad]

Originally posted by Nege:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
Key phrases in case you don't read it in the above excerpt to remember are:

"...generation gap..."

"Too much of the 19-to-30 crowd has gone over to that BET vibe"

"...young people have no way into it"

"...it wouldn't have been so strange for someone to go from being a hiphop head to getting into house – the two were more connected in the days before rave"

"It's strange that the mainstream clubs can mix genres and tempos but the underground is usually strict and segregated." These points have always been brought up before,
on these message boards or discussions.
but they always seem to be denied or ignored.
the truth hurts.
doesn't it? </font>[/QUOTE]you got it...

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Originally posted by clos7:
House ain't givin up, House ain't gonna stop, we'll keep reaching for, rechin for the top!
graemlins/cheering.gif What is this?
A high school reunion...

[ October 26, 2003, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Gman ]

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Originally posted by darrow:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DeesKo:
Its one thing to say you want to make an album of other stuff to explore new realms of your own personal creativity, or because you're at a loss over how to lay another accapella from the civil rights movement over a house beat without it sounding like every other successful song you've ever done, or because you're just in a different place right now musically...

thats cool, actually, its respectable from an artist perspective but to claim you're doing it to save house music is just yanking your own chain.

Peace Nick does all those releases on DNH, right? They do all sound the same to me. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree.

Some of his cuts do sound nice though, but in a monotonous way.

That's just me though.

[Mah'chew]

Nick Holder's Underground Alternatives is the shit and so is his Hustlers E.P.

This article just reads like he was having one of those days, we all have them.

If House is dead why's Nick still knocking it out - granted from England.

Personally, I wanted to see Nick explore some other avenues anyway, let's see what he comes up with, he's hit about 100 releases already - he's just adjusting his sights because House has died in Scarborough, ONT.

He should try making House out of Scarborough, North Yorkshire :D

We've all been there :D

[ October 26, 2003, 10:04 PM: Message edited by: Mah'chew ]

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music. I think we all agree with that, but this time the comment is coming from a producer whose work I really respect. It's more interesting to me to respond to this than to "the longest thread ever" or some photo thread crap. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't diss other threads. </font>[/QUOTE]That photo thread crap had our pictures in it graemlins/scared.gif

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by ivanjb:

I like the way he describes the public's move towards modern Hip Hop and "BET stuff". It makes me want to get out of here and move to Europe.
UK wise, McDonald's adverts through to Virgin Megastores "R&BUrbanhiphop". KFC ad on TV, people dishing the chicken out to Marlena Shaw - california soul, or the other KFC ad where they are working in a second hand record shop eating chicken to soul.

The market is taking over here, as nothing really new has struck for a while the tail has caught up with the nose making everything pretty much the same same same same.

God it's boring, and to quote MCDonalds advert "loving it", well maybe not.

[Nege]

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Nege:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
Key phrases in case you don't read it in the above excerpt to remember are:

"...generation gap..."

"Too much of the 19-to-30 crowd has gone over to that BET vibe"

"...young people have no way into it"

"...it wouldn't have been so strange for someone to go from being a hiphop head to getting into house – the two were more connected in the days before rave"

"It's strange that the mainstream clubs can mix genres and tempos but the underground is usually strict and segregated." These points have always been brought up before,
on these message boards or discussions.
but they always seem to be denied or ignored.
the truth hurts.
doesn't it? </font>[/QUOTE]you got it...
</font>[/QUOTE]yup,
unfortunately most of us DON'T!
:(

[shannoneileen]

i don't know how relevant this comment will be to you guys... coming from a novice who does not know half the people you all are talking about... lol
but my feeling is that there are ebbs and tides in every scene...
if this music was born from underground heads who couldn't find a place in the mainstream... then it shall be reborn by those experiencing the same oppression...
i don't feel the same urgency to 'keep house alive' because one, it ain't dead and two, i'm not a dj, but i know that i could give 2 f*cks about commercial airplay... if i'm underground, i'ma look underground for inspiration...
i was reading abou nyc and how they're shutting down clubs, etc, so the kids don't have a place to dance...
i look at this as a positive... this gets rid of all the watered down bull and sets a clean slate for inovation and renewed inspiration...
i'm an optimist smile.gif
they'll be bored, but i bet you... geniuses will arise from the ashes... not many, i'm sure... but the genuine artists always find a way...

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by Gman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music. I think we all agree with that, but this time the comment is coming from a producer whose work I really respect. It's more interesting to me to respond to this than to "the longest thread ever" or some photo thread crap. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't diss other threads. </font>[/QUOTE]That photo thread crap had our pictures in it graemlins/scared.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Geez, I'm sorry to have offended anyone with that reply. It was a misunderstanding. I was a bit frustrated that Nick Holder's take was being misread and I thought the thread was valid.

About the photo thread, I was referring to the one that I had read the night before about seeing some men on friday or something that had blown into a silly argument and had to get shut down.

I liked seeing the members photos! Very beautiful pictures of everyone and their families.

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music. I think we all agree with that, but this time the comment is coming from a producer whose work I really respect. It's more interesting to me to respond to this than to "the longest thread ever" or some photo thread crap. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't diss other threads. </font>[/QUOTE]That photo thread crap had our pictures in it graemlins/scared.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Geez, I'm sorry to have offended anyone with that reply. It was a misunderstanding. I was a bit frustrated that Nick Holder's take was being misread and I thought the thread was valid.

About the photo thread, I was referring to the one that I had read the night before about seeing some men on friday or something that had blown into a silly argument and had to get shut down.

I liked seeing the members photos! Very beautiful pictures of everyone and their families. </font>[/QUOTE]Too little too late graemlins/tongueout.gif

[Djay Raare]

H O U S E * M U S I C * W I L L * N E V E R * D I E no matter what!!! graemlins/cool_shades.gif

[andrea]

Posted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 3:41 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can understand Nick's frustration because he is a producer who has a unique house style who sees that house in general has been fuzed and infuzed with so many genres of music that he could have started to question himself as a producer. Very common to go through these thoughts, no matter what you do for a living. This is why I applaud a dj/producer who can stay with it. The music industry is hurting and it trickles down to the producers where the competition is intense to do something that will capture the audience. If the audience isn't loving it, you can feel stagnant and those creative juices stop flowing. Alot of the success of hip hop is branding/marketing. hip hop has a fashion style, house does not. hip hop has it's own dialogue, house does not and so on and so on. We all know this...House is a feeling, so get out there and feel it, live it.

love nick...so sensual

andrea

[erd]

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:
I read this thread with great interest because I haven't read this board in about a week due to day job commitments(yeah, like Nick Holder said, the gigs aren't there anymore) and I wanted to see what was up on the 'house boards' after a particularly inspiring weekend.

On Friday night a good friend calls me and asks for my help in going through a collection he obtained, to help him catalog what he obtained and integrate it into his own record collection and sort out triple copies, etc.. I told him I wasn't really up for it, I had received several stacks of promos in the last few weeks, and sad to say most of them were throw aways and could be classified into about three categories...I think I only kept a handful of records...there were your wanna be MAW/Bongo Joe records that sound like EVERYTHING being played in NYC right now, filtered disco house from obscure European labels who think that it is still a fresh sound for that particular sub genre, and vocal house records with divas who moan and scream for the entire length of the record demonstrating their vocal range but not really singing about anything in particular or intelligible. I think in one or two records you may have been able to make out the words 'Lord' and God' over the screaming and moaning. Anyway, I reluctantly went over to my friend's place to help him with this task, making it very clear I was tired of listening to house records and would have preferred a weekend of hearing NO music at all. So we start going through the two collections, his and the one he bought, and there was a ton of gems, mostly from the 80's into the early 90's...What started out as a chore and favor turned into an all night jam session of almost every pre house and house classic ever made. We took turns on the decks, and by early morning, records were everywhere, all over the room, you literally couldn't walk. EVERY damn record up until a certain point in time was good...I was going bananas to each and every one and flooded with memories, as was he. I had more fun that night than I have had at any party in the last year or so. It all came together for me, the feeling I miss, the bump of the music, the weird ass records I loved hearing, the constant progression of the music over time, all the people I used to see at parties, and more importantly...the DANCERS. We got into a discussion about dancing and dancing styles, and how most parties these days lack serious dancers or dance crews getting down to club music. So my friend remembers he had just got a new DVD the day before and hadn't watched it yet...'The Freshest Kids', which is a documentary about B-Boy Culture, Breakin' and Hip Hop. I won't go into detail, as everyone should see this movie..but everything that was said in the movie regarding what happened to the B-Boy culture and Hip Hop can be applied directly to House culture as well. If you haven't seen it yet, go see it, buy it, etc...

I woke up the next day freshly inspired, and was in the neighborhood while running errands of a local audio/record shop, and stopped in to say hello. I got into an interesting discussion with my friend there while catching up on local gossip...how all these new clubs are popping up (in regards to New Jersey), people getting gigs, their own nights, people playing again...but...nobody is really dancing...even at the mainstream parrties playing hip hop and progressive house at all these new spots,nobody is really dancing...I agreed, as over the summer I played a series of local venues, some very nice venues with good sound, and nobody was feelign any music, whether it was me playing house, or the local resident joker playing hip hop mp3's and KTU muscle boy house...and how a nice new venue opened up just 2 miles from my house, claiming to be yet another 'New York City Style Club' with top dj's, and it's been packed, but guess what, nobody really gets down in the place...it's a mixture of local meathead muscle boys, the fake blonde girls with platform shoes they are there to try to hook up with, and the local thugs who are their for the hip hop, looking all hard and rough when it's a QUIET SUBURB. So the same guy I'm talking to says, "yeah, i'm gonna give it another 5-10 years before I quit"...mind you, this guys is in his 30's!!! So then it all finally came together for me, things I have been preaching for years but never followed myself...the genrational gap in the club scene really hit me, the things I outlined in the Nick Holder article really hit home.

One of the best things I did this year I kept quiet about...I held down a local residency for about 6 months early this year at a local spot, a hole in the wall bar in a college town 15 minutes from me, with a portable sounnd system that barely worked. At first I had the same ideas for a party like anyone else on these boards...but then after a few nights there, I saw an element of people I wanted to grow there, and stopped advertising the night on the message boards. Why did I do that? I didn't want any 'heads' there, or other local dj's...that would mean being lmited to what I am allowed to play or supposed to play. You see, I'm tired of the history lessons, the categorizing of what I am supposed to play as a dj that is a part of a certain label and an alleged part of a certain scene. I wanted to test myself also...apart from two other dj's who played with me on a rotating basis and the guy promoting the party, nobody knew who the hell I was or did. We all kept it to ourselves and promoted locally only. I played for complete strangers. What happened in the months ahead was inspiring. It was a long start, but at the end, I had a regular group of dancers coming every week, break dancers, hardcore dancers, dancing to house music and other genres I was playing. And I got away with murder...I had no rules to follow, no 'heads' to cater to, no other dj's to kiss my ass to try to play there and then talk sh*t behind my back and diss me when I'm not around...the nights would often start with 'deep house' and end completely differently...sometimes straight up techno, hip hop, classics...I once played some 'swing house' records and had people doing dance routines to those records...it was as if I was at the Tunnel or original Sound Factory back in the day, or the old Jersey parties with the groups of dancers we would watch. And, guess what, downstairs, we had a hip hop DJ...to draw people in...and towards the end, they would filter upstairs and some would even get into the house, and say, "damn, I haven't heard sh*t like this in years!" and no, i absolutley did not play any jersey standards such as 'follow me' and 'percolator', ever. The party did not last because as the crowd grew, the owner got nervous, people doing flips in the middle of tha bar, crap liek that, and he never liked my crowd, and made it a point to tell me. one or two minor incidents in the hip hop room didn't help either, and after a six month run, the party ended. other venues in the same area were all doing bullsh*t commercial nights already, and declined to take in an 'underground' night. I made almost no money at the place, my pay amounting to gas money, and in fact I lost money, around a grand, contributing to adding to the sound system and buying an extra mixer to take with me weekly. Some of you may say its not worth it, but I learned a lot from it and it rejuvinated me from the rut I was stuck in musically for over a year. I would do it again if I had the chance.

So, after an inspirational weekend and collecting my thoughts about the party I just wrote about I was involved with, I come onto the message boards to see what's going on in my 'scene' I allegedly belong to. A few good threads here and there about actual music and what not...then I come on here. I find the usual non music related threads that continue for ages, a thread about ONE Kerri Chandler track, several pages of people debating about ONE f*ckin' track that is coming out by him and why we should like it, and this thread about Nick Holder and his views on the 'state of house'. And after reading the interview and the responses, I find the same responses, same 'house ain't dead' comments, same lovefest, same producers used as examples that house ain't dead, and a general downplaying of the interview. And before anyone gets started with me, I'm not defending Nick Holder's own music, as I don't particularly like most of it, but his comments about the scene and how he got into it really hit home, because its the same way I got into house music about 16-17 years ago. I think people failed to read the comments I pointed out earlier. Think what you want of the man and his productions, but what he said that I pointed out myself and others have been saying for a long time.

If you want a good idea of the state of house, you don't even need to read that interview now that I think about it...all you need to do is read your own comments and threads, they speak volumes about the 'state of the house scene'. Christopher, although my and your feelings may not always be the same regarding house music or Rame mixers ;) , I have to say that your previous post is one of the best and most heart-felt posts, I have been allowed to read here, ever. Thanks, I feel ya.

Peace.

Gerd

[DeesKo]

Originally posted by Chris Conrad:


EVERY damn record up until a certain point in time was good...
That really isn't a true statement Chris and you know it. There have ALWAYS been PLENTY of bad records.


I was going bananas to each and every one and flooded with memories, as was he.

Were these memories from a time prior to your professional immersion in dance music/house by any chance ?

Was this when you were just a fan who went out and partied out of interest and desire rather than because it was "work" ?

Were these memories from before you'd experienced the good life, and the not so good life (ie # of gigs per month) ?



It all came together for me, the feeling I miss, the bump of the music, the weird ass records I loved hearing, the constant progression of the music over time

Why did I do that? I didn't want any 'heads' there, or other local dj's...that would mean being lmited to what I am allowed to play or supposed to play. You see, I'm tired of the history lessons, the categorizing of what I am supposed to play as a dj that is a part of a certain label and an alleged part of a certain scene.

Last time I checked, all those great old records were still in the crates, waiting to be played.
The beauty of the acceptance of a house crowd is that they're willing to listen to that stuff. They want to listen to that stuff. I can't think of an audience more willing to listen to older stuff than a real house crowd. This isn't hip-hop where you can't be caught playing something 1 year old, unless its been deemed a "classic" by Radio One/Clear Channel.

If there's been any pressure to play any certain way, or to play records you didn't like or believe in, its either been placed there incorrectly by yourself or by someone else in the "industry" and even that requires you to pay too much attention to the wrong people to have it matter.



We got into a discussion about dancing and dancing styles, and how most parties these days lack serious dancers or dance crews getting down to club music.

IMHO there are still parties with hardcore dancers, there are just too many parties and not enough dancers to go around. This can be attributed to a few things, in no particular order :

1. People throwing parties who only KNOW people who stand around and who don't put the leg work into getting those other people to come around.

2. In the cycle that is life, right now from a B-Boy perspective (since you mentioned Legs' video) right now, we're in 1985 all over again. A large subsect of B-Boys are either too young in age to get in the clubs, or they're too young in their development as dancers to be interested in anything else besides hip-hop and funk breaks.

3. Clubs with 21+ requirements alienating younger kids from getting into house in their prime club years.

4. People not bringing heat.




So my friend remembers he had just got a new DVD the day before and hadn't watched it yet...'The Freshest Kids', which is a documentary about B-Boy Culture, Breakin' and Hip Hop. I won't go into detail, as everyone should see this movie..but everything that was said in the movie regarding what happened to the B-Boy culture and Hip Hop can be applied directly to House culture as well. If you haven't seen it yet, go see it, buy it, etc...

Be aware that this DVD is Crazy Legs' personal diatribe on hip-hop and bboying and while touted as being the definitive history of things, its not. Its the definitive history of what Legs' acknowledges as truths.

Granted, it is amazing to see the linear comparisons to bboying and really, anything else I have a passion for in life. I watch the EXACT SAME new vs old arguements on B-Boy message boards day in and day out.




A few good threads here and there about actual music and what not...then I come on here. I find the usual non music related threads that continue for ages, a thread about ONE Kerri Chandler track, several pages of people debating about ONE f*ckin' track that is coming out by him and why we should like it, and this thread about Nick Holder and his views on the 'state of house'. And after reading the interview and the responses, I find the same responses, same 'house ain't dead' comments, same lovefest, same producers used as examples that house ain't dead, and a general downplaying of the interview.

I was one of the people downplaying the interview and saying house isn't dead, and I'll say it again....

House ain't about any one person, or even any group of people regardless of what they've done, what they're doing or what camps they're down with......

The industry comes and goes, the people within the industry come and go even quicker, and house keeps rolling on with individual people still enjoying it and experiencing those same highs their brothers and sisters from the past experienced.

Could things be better, sure, there are definitely issues that should be addressed within the community, including people who refuse to get excited unless a "big name" is in town or people who harass and backstab other people for gigs, etc but those things are never going to go away and they have nothing to do with the music.



...all you need to do is read your own comments and threads, they speak volumes about the 'state of the house scene'. I couldn't agree more, but I think we're coming to different conclusions.

I see fans showing positive support of the music and the artists who make that music.


Peace

[Ron la Rock]

Originally posted by DeesKo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chris Conrad:


EVERY damn record up until a certain point in time was good...
That really isn't a true statement Chris and you know it. There have ALWAYS been PLENTY of bad records.


I was going bananas to each and every one and flooded with memories, as was he.

Were these memories from a time prior to your professional immersion in dance music/house by any chance ?

Was this when you were just a fan who went out and partied out of interest and desire rather than because it was "work" ?

Were these memories from before you'd experienced the good life, and the not so good life (ie # of gigs per month) ?



It all came together for me, the feeling I miss, the bump of the music, the weird ass records I loved hearing, the constant progression of the music over time

Why did I do that? I didn't want any 'heads' there, or other local dj's...that would mean being lmited to what I am allowed to play or supposed to play. You see, I'm tired of the history lessons, the categorizing of what I am supposed to play as a dj that is a part of a certain label and an alleged part of a certain scene.

Last time I checked, all those great old records were still in the crates, waiting to be played.
The beauty of the acceptance of a house crowd is that they're willing to listen to that stuff. They want to listen to that stuff. I can't think of an audience more willing to listen to older stuff than a real house crowd. This isn't hip-hop where you can't be caught playing something 1 year old, unless its been deemed a "classic" by Radio One/Clear Channel.

If there's been any pressure to play any certain way, or to play records you didn't like or believe in, its either been placed there incorrectly by yourself or by someone else in the "industry" and even that requires you to pay too much attention to the wrong people to have it matter.



We got into a discussion about dancing and dancing styles, and how most parties these days lack serious dancers or dance crews getting down to club music.

IMHO there are still parties with hardcore dancers, there are just too many parties and not enough dancers to go around. This can be attributed to a few things, in no particular order :

1. People throwing parties who only KNOW people who stand around and who don't put the leg work into getting those other people to come around.

2. In the cycle that is life, right now from a B-Boy perspective (since you mentioned Legs' video) right now, we're in 1985 all over again. A large subsect of B-Boys are either too young in age to get in the clubs, or they're too young in their development as dancers to be interested in anything else besides hip-hop and funk breaks.

3. Clubs with 21+ requirements alienating younger kids from getting into house in their prime club years.

4. People not bringing heat.




So my friend remembers he had just got a new DVD the day before and hadn't watched it yet...'The Freshest Kids', which is a documentary about B-Boy Culture, Breakin' and Hip Hop. I won't go into detail, as everyone should see this movie..but everything that was said in the movie regarding what happened to the B-Boy culture and Hip Hop can be applied directly to House culture as well. If you haven't seen it yet, go see it, buy it, etc...

Be aware that this DVD is Crazy Legs' personal diatribe on hip-hop and bboying and while touted as being the definitive history of things, its not. Its the definitive history of what Legs' acknowledges as truths.

Granted, it is amazing to see the linear comparisons to bboying and really, anything else I have a passion for in life. I watch the EXACT SAME new vs old arguements on B-Boy message boards day in and day out.




A few good threads here and there about actual music and what not...then I come on here. I find the usual non music related threads that continue for ages, a thread about ONE Kerri Chandler track, several pages of people debating about ONE f*ckin' track that is coming out by him and why we should like it, and this thread about Nick Holder and his views on the 'state of house'. And after reading the interview and the responses, I find the same responses, same 'house ain't dead' comments, same lovefest, same producers used as examples that house ain't dead, and a general downplaying of the interview.

I was one of the people downplaying the interview and saying house isn't dead, and I'll say it again....

House ain't about any one person, or even any group of people regardless of what they've done, what they're doing or what camps they're down with......

The industry comes and goes, the people within the industry come and go even quicker, and house keeps rolling on with individual people still enjoying it and experiencing those same highs their brothers and sisters from the past experienced.

Could things be better, sure, there are definitely issues that should be addressed within the community, including people who refuse to get excited unless a "big name" is in town or people who harass and backstab other people for gigs, etc but those things are never going to go away and they have nothing to do with the music.



...all you need to do is read your own comments and threads, they speak volumes about the 'state of the house scene'. I couldn't agree more, but I think we're coming to different conclusions.

I see fans showing positive support of the music and the artists who make that music.


Peace </font>[/QUOTE]sound like your trying 2 oppose chris's arguement and still your strengthening it at the same
we who love this have 2 be real about it and kill the rose coloured glasses
the fact is shit is fallin off
without a doubt

[C hristian]

i have 2 responses on the subject of house music dieing. Remind me to roll these out next week when it comes up again :

1) http://deephousepage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=037768

2)


I don't know why I put myself through reading 9 pages of this *****, but you know, whatever. I chose to do it.

Chris' fustrations as a DJ trying to understand the limitations and close-mindedness of other around, I can completely
identify with. All these labels, all these subdivisions, it's ALL marketing people! It's ALL MARKETING! Granted,
there is then a certain history of experience, of clubbing at certain spots back in the day, and what they played there.
But you know what? I'm willing to bet that even some of the great DJs as well as the general public had their own set
limitations, as well. we all do, and it's part of our job as a DJ of today, to work people out of that. To lead people, in a
way that they accept, to total open-mindedness about what is passing through their ears. I think someone pointed out
that all this music is basically created with the same equipment. We are quibbling over different presets of the sound
bank. different synth vibrations. the relative presence or absence of Bass and Treble.
Small, when you step back and look at it, but real.

All this **** is not how great musicians think; you all are living in another world. I can GUARRANTEE (sp?) you.
Musicians know what's good and what's bad music and that's simply how it is defined. In other words, what connects
with them emotionally and/or intellectually, and what doesn't. Maybe a general genre name, but that's only after
someone else usually puts you in a box like that. that's it! It's all music! All these labels and divisions and crap is all a
product of non-musicians, who can't seem to fully grasp the language of music. In this world we live in , the written
word is king. So "critics" have got to write about music, and we do here on the board every day. So we have got to come
up with labels and put musicians into little easily-catagorical boxes in our mind. We've got to digitize the truth, and let
me tell you something, the TRUTH is analogue! That's why we play records! (I'm getting off the subject here.)

The point is, as a musican, it's really hard sometimes to read a lot of the crap that people put down here as "education" .
I already got my education in music! You aren't talking to me about chord changes, harmonies, specific timberal
sonorities and the memories/emotions they evoke, melodic structure, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. What is truly
educational are the mixes themselves. they speak for themselves. and to know which tracks were popular back in the
day, to a certain extent. What you are telling me is how these songs were marketed.

Maybe I'm sounding a little to harsh/blunt here. I probably am sounding more harsh than I really mean to. But you gotta
understand that it is the critics job to put musicians in a box with the labels they come up with. It's the muscian's job to
get out of that box, or at least widen it. That's what we do, all the time.

But I'm sure no opinions have changed merely from reading my post. You all like what you like and don't like what you
don't like, as do I , and it is my job as the DJ to size up where you all are at, where I am at, and to take the lead into
moving along a comfortable musical path towards that spot in heaven we call COMPLETE OPEN-MINDEDNESS!

But if we solved that in a day, it would mean we countered the effects of racism, sexism, classism, and every other trick
of the political and socio-economic trade. And then how would we fill our days after that?

If there is one thing I learned in music school, it's this : Music is culture, and culture is political.

man, where's the spell-check?

[ August 10, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: C hristian ]

[C hristian]

notice the date of the above.
the juices were flowing that day.

from here, maybe the entire thread should be reread so we all remember what we said back in August? :

http://deephousepage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=034460;p=9

[ October 27, 2003, 08:47 PM: Message edited by: C hristian ]

[C hristian]

I'm gonna send this thread to him. Nick might want to read this. :D

[ October 27, 2003, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: C hristian ]

[ivanjb]

Originally posted by DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ivanjb:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JAMIE 3:26:
How many damn times can you discet apart one subject?

Just play some good music. I think we all agree with that, but this time the comment is coming from a producer whose work I really respect. It's more interesting to me to respond to this than to "the longest thread ever" or some photo thread crap. </font>[/QUOTE]Don't diss other threads. </font>[/QUOTE]That photo thread crap had our pictures in it graemlins/scared.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Geez, I'm sorry to have offended anyone with that reply. It was a misunderstanding. I was a bit frustrated that Nick Holder's take was being misread and I thought the thread was valid.

About the photo thread, I was referring to the one that I had read the night before about seeing some men on friday or something that had blown into a silly argument and had to get shut down.

I liked seeing the members photos! Very beautiful pictures of everyone and their families. </font>[/QUOTE]Too little too late graemlins/tongueout.gif </font>[/QUOTE]What are you talking about? Too little too late for what? To explain myself?

Go practice with your your 18,000 records.

[ October 28, 2003, 09:54 AM: Message edited by: ivanjb ]

[DeesKo]

Originally posted by Ron paizley:
sound like your trying 2 oppose chris's arguement and still your strengthening it at the same
we who love this have 2 be real about it and kill the rose coloured glasses
the fact is shit is fallin off
without a doubt I was adding my input to the discussion regarding the many reasons why people become disenchanted with something, and what real issues there are within house.

Saying shit is falling off because I don't have any more gigs, or because my last party failed, or because I'm not selling any more records, or because I got to caught up in getting promos to just worry about playing good music, or because I'm just burned out on the music from over-exposure, or because I'm just an angry hateful person that is realizing I'm not 21 anymore isn't constructive input, nor does it prove house is dying.

It wasn't "opposing" Chris as much as it was building on his comments with my own while further explaining my previous stance in such a manner that it could leave discussion for others to add their input as it related to mine.

Find the part where I said things were perfect...

Peace

[ October 28, 2003, 10:01 AM: Message edited by: DeesKo ]

[Monny JcIntosh]

Originally posted by clos7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by matthew j:
who is nick holder?

and for the hundreth time, what is house music? HOUSE MUSIC MAKES YOU MOVE!
YOU SEE WHAT HOUSE DID TO THESE YUPPIES! http://www.u.arizona.edu/~chalmers/pics/mayhem@@/dancing.jpg </font>[/QUOTE]I thought I recognised that photo. I'm going to a talk given by the guy who took it, David Chalmers,in a couple of weeks.