Harmonic mixing question

[SHEIK YERBOUTI]

Okay, I'm ready for the lates.

I understand the concept, BUT if it's not listed somewhere, how does one determine what key a record's in? It's one thing to figure out the tempo, but how do you figure out the key? graemlins/conf44.gif

[SHEIK YERBOUTI]

Anybody?

[Dolemite73]

If you dont have good relative pitch(like a lot of people) or perfect pitch(like me but very rare), you basic have to have a pitch pipe or something like that. It helps to know music intervals also.

[Mark]

Hippie's method is while listening to the record, he'll get on a keyboard and find the scale (Major or minor) that matches the general tonality or melody of the song to find its key.

[Hippie]

Get your self a scale book and a cheap keyboard. Play the scales ( you can stick to the minors and majors because 80 percent of songs are based on those scales ) and get use to them. I find that the root note and the fifth usually will give me the scale to a song. And the third will tell you wether it's major or minor. One thing to keep a note of is that not all records are in perfect pitch ( some records are sped up or slowed down in mastering and that changes the pitch ) and if the keyboard that you have allows you to change the pitch percentage wise you can get it close to pitch and one thing I find is that basically the pitch is off by about 25% sharp or flat and that equals about 1 notch up or down on a 1200 turntable. Another thing is that if your in a key and want to modulate to another key ( change the pitch for example from C to C# ) you have to go up or down to about a little past 4 on the pitch control. Which equals an increase of about 5 & 1/2 beats in a song. So if you want to go to C# and the song is C and 120 bpm's then you have to find a C# record at about 125 or 126 that way you can go to the next scale smoothly. Peace, Baby

[djyoavb]

Originally posted by Hippie:
Get your self a scale book and a cheap keyboard. Play the scales ( you can stick to the minors and majors because 80 percent of songs are based on those scales ) and get use to them. I find that the root note and the fifth usually will give me the scale to a song. And the third will tell you wether it's major or minor. One thing to keep a note of is that not all records are in perfect pitch ( some records are sped up or slowed down in mastering and that changes the pitch ) and if the keyboard that you have allows you to change the pitch percentage wise you can get it close to pitch and one thing I find is that basically the pitch is off by about 25% sharp or flat and that equals about 1 notch up or down on a 1200 turntable. Another thing is that if your in a key and want to modulate to another key ( change the pitch for example from C to C# ) you have to go up or down to about a little past 4 on the pitch control. Which equals an increase of about 5 & 1/2 beats in a song. So if you want to go to C# and the song is C and 120 bpm's then you have to find a C# record at about 125 or 126 that way you can go to the next scale smoothly. Peace, Baby sometimes it's nice that the other rec is not on the same scale... makes your options wider. like with modal jazz. i mean the options for new forms of harmonics r endless if u don't just limit yourself to major and minor.

[Hippie]

Yeah but you have to have musical knowledge to do such things on purpose. You can do it by accident by just mixing anything but to do it on purpose you have to have a good musical background. And I don't think the question was asked from someone who has such knowledge. It is good and it can be interesting but I don't think he's going to learn it from a music book alone. It takes music theory.

[djyoavb]

Originally posted by Hippie:
Yeah but you have to have musical knowledge to do such things on purpose. You can do it by accident by just mixing anything but to do it on purpose you have to have a good musical background. And I don't think the question was asked from someone who has such knowledge. It is good and it can be interesting but I don't think he's going to learn it from a music book alone. It takes music theory. what i ment is that if u experiment alot and practise your ear i think u can get to explore things yourself even if u don't have a background, i mean u can start digging the cave from both sides... develope your own method and set of rules... i don't know, maybe i'm over crediting or totaly wrong here graemlins/beerchug.gif

[Terry James]

..head is spinning :eek:

[djyoavb]

shit, in a few all mixes will sound so perfect.
i think it's boring.

[Hippie]

No I don't think it will boring if such were the case then Jazz would be boring! It's only through knowledge that you can really become free. I can mix harmonically and in beat patterns and even without records being either but I have the knowledge to use it when I want rather than getting lucky every once in a while. Jazz uses a lot of improv especially in the earlier days but those musicians practiced there scales and were able to improvise because they had the knowledge and practice. Unlike modern musicians that almost all sound the same and no one seems to want to take chances when it comes to music. Almost like a lot of the Dj's that go and listen to there favorite Dj's then do his exact mix. I understand your point it sounds solid but the reality is that the more knowledge you have to draw from the more creative you can be. Peace Baby I'm not dissing you I just think knowledge is freedom.

[djyoavb]

Originally posted by Hippie:
No I don't think it will boring if such were the case then Jazz would be boring! It's only through knowledge that you can really become free. I can mix harmonically and in beat patterns and even without records being either but I have the knowledge to use it when I want rather than getting lucky every once in a while. Jazz uses a lot of improv especially in the earlier days but those musicians practiced there scales and were able to improvise because they had the knowledge and practice. Unlike modern musicians that almost all sound the same and no one seems to want to take chances when it comes to music. Almost like a lot of the Dj's that go and listen to there favorite Dj's then do his exact mix. I understand your point it sounds solid but the reality is that the more knowledge you have to draw from the more creative you can be. Peace Baby I'm not dissing you I just think knowledge is freedom. you r totally right, agreed. i have to add i think alot of the magic that's in house music, especially early house music, is that it was made intuitivly. sometimes intuition leads u to such deep places. graemlins/beerchug.gif

[SHEIK YERBOUTI]

Originally posted by Terry J:
..head is spinning :eek: graemlins/scared.gif I concur!!! Too much knowledge!!! Brain HURTING...!!!

But I truly appreciate the info. Thank you Hippie!!! hail.gif

[djyoavb]

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Terry J:
..head is spinning :eek: graemlins/scared.gif I concur!!! Too much knowledge!!! Brain HURTING...!!!

But I truly appreciate the info. Thank you Hippie!!! hail.gif </font>[/QUOTE]that ain't too much knowledge atall... if u would play a guitar for an instance, knowing major and minor scales would alow u to play no more than maybe some good old country music... it's the basis of basic bro.

[DJJM3.COM]

You need a good ear. I have been involved with music since 4th grade, so its natural for me. Playing 4 instuments on both sides of the clef made it easy....

[djyoavb]

Originally posted by DJJM3:
You need a good ear. I have been involved with music since 4th grade, so its natural for me. Playing 4 instuments on both sides of the clef made it easy.... same here

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Basic Music theory is the key. No need to spend money on books that you're not going to understand in the first place.

I myself have been fortunate enough to be blessed with having Perfect Pitch so it comes easy for me to do what I do when I mix.

It's more or less a memory game to the people who do not have perfect pitch. Just get out a keyboard and start with Middle C, then pull out as many records that you can find that are in the key of C. Once you are able to grasp that task, begin to seperate the C major records from the C Minor Records. Do this for every key if possible.


Next class, the complimentary keys!!!

Peace

[ September 26, 2003, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[12th house]

i know what perfect pitch is, but how do you know if you have it?

is it the ability to sing a key correctly, or is the ability to distinguish music by what key it is in, the ability to reproduce at will the key of a particular piece of music?

[Dolemite73]

Originally posted by 12th house:
i know what perfect pitch is, but how do you know if you have it?

is it the ability to sing a key correctly, or is the ability to distinguish music by what key it is in, the ability to reproduce at will the key of a particular piece of music? It s bit of all of that. I have the uncanny ability to recognize any pitch and to sing any pitch just off the top of my head. If you hummed a B-flat, I would be able to tell you...if you need me to sing a A or a D for instance, I would be able to sing it to you. I can also recognize chords(Major, minor, Augmented, Diminished) with extensions also. I have had other musicians tell me they have seen nothing like my ear's ability to distinguish pitches.

[TAC]

yes, yes, I have perfect too!!!

Just let me PITCH my tent in your a*ss and I'll show you!!!!! graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif

[DJJM3.COM]

Originally posted by djyoavb:
same here Cool.....a lot of times I can "hear" another song when one is playing.....That is how I do those radio mixes that some people dont want me to mention on here any more.......

[kev]

PITCH THIS!

[TAC]

Originally posted by DJJM3:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djyoavb:
same here Cool.....a lot of times I can "hear" another song when one is playing.....That is how I do those radio mixes that some people dont want me to mention on here any more....... </font>[/QUOTE]yes, yes...I beleive you. A lot of times, i hear 15 songs when i am playing. Its this one big cacaphony in my head that drives me crazy!!!!

Sometimes, I'm like, "OH SH1T, I CAN"T STAND IT!!!" graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif

[Nege]

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
Okay, I'm ready for the lates.

I understand the concept, BUT if it's not listed somewhere, how does one determine what key a record's in? It's one thing to figure out the tempo, but how do you figure out the key? graemlins/conf44.gif It's like tuning an instrument while warming up to play one.
If the sounds on both records sound right with each other and there is no Harmonic clash,then it is in key or in a releative key.
some poeple might or will have the ear for it especially those who are musicians.
it's hard explain in writing.

[ September 26, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Nege ]

[ivanjb]

It's something I always try to do in mixing and something I really liked about Hippies mix. The bad part is, it makes 99.8% of all mixes sound like ass when you start to listen for it. And live, forget it. Maybe a few mixes will come off but it's very rare.

There are so many house DJ's that get props for their mixes that are mixed out of tune. It's a shame.

[DJJM3.COM]

Originally posted by TAC:
yes, yes...I believe you. A lot of times, i hear 15 songs when i am playing. Its this one big cacaphony in my head that drives me crazy!!!!

Sometimes, I'm like, "OH SH1T, I CAN"T STAND IT!!!" graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif Its too much for me at times.....I used to kill 'em up in grammaphone They would play some records...And I would go " that track will go with _______________." They all would look at me like im nuts.......

[djyoavb]

Originally posted by DJJM3:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by TAC:
yes, yes...I believe you. A lot of times, i hear 15 songs when i am playing. Its this one big cacaphony in my head that drives me crazy!!!!

Sometimes, I'm like, "OH SH1T, I CAN"T STAND IT!!!" graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif graemlins/rofl.gif icon_rofl.gif Its too much for me at times.....I used to kill 'em up in grammaphone They would play some records...And I would go " that track will go with _______________." They all would look at me like im nuts....... </font>[/QUOTE]yeah i know what u mean... usually i pic like 3-5 recs before i'm about to play another one, like in chess, predict some of the moves earlyer... i bet one can psychologicaly analize it and find what drives one to do that...

[DJJM3.COM]

Originally posted by djyoavb:
yeah i know what u mean... usually i pic like 3-5 recs before i'm about to play another one, like in chess, predict some of the moves earlyer... i bet one can psychologicaly analize it and find what drives one to do that... Thats a good thing- because you will never "DJ yourself in a corner"

[D J 1 3 8]

you can always just drop the bass out and crank up the FX box and blend away!!!!Weeeeeeeee!

[12th house]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
you can always just drop the bass out and crank up the FX box and blend away!!!!Weeeeeeeee! hahahahah yeah to hell with harmonics!

[Hippie]

For the guys giving advice about how easy it is to just listen to records and pick out the key it's in your wrong. Unless like some of us your brought up playing a music instrument ( Piano for me ) then it's very hard to find the root key. A song can be in C but G or F or A will sound right. And don't forget a songs relative major and minor scale. C major is also all the same notes for A minor scale. So try and give this guy some helpful advice and keep in mind that it's easy for you cause you've had a musical background or you have a natural talent for pitch. Peace children and don't forget K.I.S.S

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Hippie:
Peace children and don't forget K.I.S.S http://www.band975.fm.br/imagens/kiss.jpg

[SHEIK YERBOUTI]

Originally posted by Hippie:
For the guys giving advice about how easy it is to just listen to records and pick out the key it's in your wrong. Unless like some of us your brought up playing a music instrument ( Piano for me ) then it's very hard to find the root key. A song can be in C but G or F or A will sound right. And don't forget a songs relative major and minor scale. C major is also all the same notes for A minor scale. So try and give this guy some helpful advice and keep in mind that it's easy for you cause you've had a musical background or you have a natural talent for pitch. Peace children and don't forget K.I.S.S That's kinda why I made the brain hurting post.

I kinda understand the playing the scales part, but I still don't get how that helps you find the root key of a track.

If you don't want to post anymore info to the board, feel free to pm me or hit me with some music theory links or whatnot.

[djyoavb]

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Hippie:
For the guys giving advice about how easy it is to just listen to records and pick out the key it's in your wrong. Unless like some of us your brought up playing a music instrument ( Piano for me ) then it's very hard to find the root key. A song can be in C but G or F or A will sound right. And don't forget a songs relative major and minor scale. C major is also all the same notes for A minor scale. So try and give this guy some helpful advice and keep in mind that it's easy for you cause you've had a musical background or you have a natural talent for pitch. Peace children and don't forget K.I.S.S That's kinda why I made the brain hurting post.

I kinda understand the playing the scales part, but I still don't get how that helps you find the root key of a track.

If you don't want to post anymore info to the board, feel free to pm me or hit me with some music theory links or whatnot. </font>[/QUOTE]if u don't have perfect pitch the only way u can find the root key is using Hippie's suggestion, using a keyboard, find the related notes in the scale and from there u can realise what's the root key. no other reasonable way.

[Hippie]

I think I'll post some of my tracks and what key there in. That will help you a little because you'll know the key already and you can play with the scale and get use to how a song in that scale sounds. I'll try to put up some new stuff and some old stuff. Actually if you want to practice right away you can listen to my classic mix all the songs in it are in C minor. But do get your self a scale book it will help you get a grip of the concept.

[ September 26, 2003, 06:33 PM: Message edited by: Hippie ]

[illiciumverum]

great thread, really interesting for me.

groove victim mentioned complementary keys, something i've always been suspect about. this is because some keys that go together can make for a really boring mix, imo.

i studied classical for many many years, but music that really inspired me in my teens was be bop jazz, and hippie, i agree with you, knowledge is necessary for creativity. some of the chord progressions and the improvisation that cats like dizzy bird miles etc. used to play were so harmonically jarring that it (along with the frenetic rhythms and pure virutosity) made their stuff quite difficult for some people to tolerate.

by the same token, mixes that just floor me are the sort that timmy regisford come up with. i don't think i have perfect pitch, so i've always wondered what sort of key changes he does in his mixes. at times his mixes remind me of those jazz guys because the mixes are so melodically incompatible...or so it seems. i've heard so many djs try and replicate this 'off key' blending, but it just sounds murderous, which leads me to believe that timmy's mixes are all the more calculated.

hippie, can you lend any insight into this?

[SHEIK YERBOUTI]

Once again, thanks to all. Another question. What elements of a track do you listen for to determine the key? The melody (I guess the singing part for example), the harmonic chords, the bassline? I guess I have a decent sense of pitch, I can tell when two things sound correct and when they don't and I can sit down in front of a keyboard and pick out the notes to a song. You know, the one finger thing. And if I don't know a chord, I can tell when some notes sound correct together and when they're dischordant. I already have a few basic music theory books.

[djyoavb]

Originally posted by toomuchtv:
Once again, thanks to all. Another question. What elements of a track do you listen for to determine the key? The melody (I guess the singing part for example), the harmonic chords, the bassline? I guess I have a decent sense of pitch, I can tell when two things sound correct and when they don't and I can sit down in front of a keyboard and pick out the notes to a song. You know, the one finger thing. And if I don't know a chord, I can tell when some notes sound correct together and when they're dischordant. I already have a few basic music theory books. harmonic chords.