Daniel Patrick Moynihan 1927 - 2003

[djmarkbethemechanic]

the former NY senator passed last night from complications do to surgery. The former democratic senator from NY was 76. He was a great leader and teacher from an era of bipartisanship.

He was described as "the best thinking politician since Lincoln and the best politcal thinker since Jefferson."

He will be missed

[mdpm99]

He was well liked and respected.

RIP

d

[Wild i]

He was a good man. I don't know what Hil will do without his counsel.

[C hristian]

Damn, I was looking forward to his post-senate contributions.

he was a senator's senator. an academic. I expect flags to be at half-mast around DC today.

he will be missed.

thanks for letting us know.

C

[Ken1015]

I was shocked and saddened when I heard the news last night. He made a great many contributions with his discussions on the downtrodden and he will definitely be missed.

[MarkK]

Shouldn't they already be at half-mast?

[mhd]

Sad to lose a true statesman, there are few, if any, still around. RIP

[imported_Gman]

R.I.P

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by Wild i:
He was a good man. I don't know what Hil will do without his counsel. She actually made the announcement on the floor of the Senate yesterday.

[fred da warrior]

Didn't he do (or lead) a controversial study in the 60's about black folk?

[music]

The man made general comments about black women and their children . he never apologized.

He was a typical white liberal; Pat Moynihan thought he knew what was best for black people and not his own kind. the other one is Joe Hynes, Brooklyn D.a.

[The Buddy Love Show]

regarding the above two posts...

Moynihan did a seminal paper regarding blacks and poverty in which he stated that a lot of the condition of blacks was due to the disintegation of the black family - for this he was vilified by the poverty pimps....its funny how Farrakhan made the same statments 30 years later at the million man march and he is beatified

but let me not start about loser ass black folk

[music]

yea but pat did not live in the hood, brother louis did. he should've used that very same study for the irish gangs and mafia.

most white liberals in d.c. have few if any minorities on their staff; it's ironic that consevative republicans have more minorities on staff in chief positions.

[ March 27, 2003, 07:58 PM: Message edited by: music ]

[f0reverneverm0re]

"The Moynihan Report" When Politics and Sociology Collide
http://www.pbs.org/fmc/segments/progseg12.htm

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by f0reverneverm0re:
"The Moynihan Report" When Politics and Sociology Collide
http://www.pbs.org/fmc/segments/progseg12.htm thanx for the link...i remember reading this and a book by Louis Gates(?) for an economics of poverty class

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by music:
yea but pat did not live in the hood, brother louis did. he should've used that very same study for the irish gangs and mafia.

most white liberals in d.c. have few if any minorities on their staff; it's ironic that consevative republicans have more minorities on staff in chief positions. so because pat did not live in the "hood" when he says it its bullshit yet when Farrakhan says the EXACT same thing its gospel - thats one of the dumbest statements i've ever heard - and i've heard it a lot ......why would he have to do the same study for the irish and the italians..they aren't living in a cycle of squalor black folk are - but its easier to attack the messenger rather than look in the mirror and admit that you are a failure - ****ing victim menatlity still on the move

[djmarkbethemechanic]

a synopsis

The Negro Family: The Case for National Action, published in 1965 and popularly known as The Moynihan Report, is the most significant early statement of the current crop of "culture of poverty" and "underclass" theories. Drawing selectively from Black sociologist E. Franklin Frazier's methodologically flawed study, The Negro Family in the United States (1966), Moynihan's central thesis was that the Black family is immersed in a weak and unstable subculture. In this subculture, matriarchy is the dominant form, severe unemployment exaggerates the situation, the weak Black family produces children who are incapable of enjoying educational and employment opportunities, and no meaningful change is possible until that family is strengthened "from within." Government programs, argued Moynihan, are useless until such changes take place. It was The Moynihan Report that made it respectable to place the source of Black poverty within the Black community itself.

this is from an article critical of the report...tell me what the difference is between this and the message of Farrakhan to the 0ne million

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
a synopsis

The Negro Family: The Case for National Action, published in 1965 and popularly known as The Moynihan Report, is the most significant early statement of the current crop of "culture of poverty" and "underclass" theories. Drawing selectively from Black sociologist E. Franklin Frazier's methodologically flawed study, The Negro Family in the United States (1966), Moynihan's central thesis was that the Black family is immersed in a weak and unstable subculture. In this subculture, matriarchy is the dominant form, severe unemployment exaggerates the situation, the weak Black family produces children who are incapable of enjoying educational and employment opportunities, and no meaningful change is possible until that family is strengthened "from within." Government programs, argued Moynihan, are useless until such changes take place. It was The Moynihan Report that made it respectable to place the source of Black poverty within the Black community itself.

this is from an article critical of the report...tell me what the difference is between this and the message of Farrakhan to the 0ne million the main problem is that too many chicken eating, malt lquor guzzling, no education getting, too many baby havin, drug slangin, not trying to get a job in the 90's clinton boomtimein, driving a benz and in yo moms crib livin, not supportin your kids NIGGERS have too many ****ing apologists within the black communitry - the POVERTY PIMPS

**** the whole lot

[mhd]

Originally posted by music:

most white liberals in d.c. have few if any minorities on their staff; it's ironic that consevative republicans have more minorities on staff in chief positions. can you give any examples? i live in this world and my experience has been vastly different

[music]

first,read the bell curve;find out what it said about whites. i know what it said about blacks.

second, anybody could've produced the study that pat wrote for one,ok. you missed what i saying about the irish gangs and mafia- there seem to be a cycle of them joining from generation to generation.

third,the problems that pat talked about were previously written by black leaders, booker t and w.e.b. .

fourth, at the time of the report black men were entering college and graduate schools in in large amounts instead of the penal system. also they offered jobs that were not available in the past.

finally, what did blue eyes pat do to correct the matter,prior,nothing.

to my remarks inreference to irish gangs and the mafia. they still exist.

he needed to clean up his own ethnic back yard first.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by music:
first,read the bell curve;find out what it said about whites. i know what it said about blacks.

second, anybody could've produced the study that pat wrote for one,ok. you missed what i saying about the irish gangs and mafia- there seem to be a cycle of them joining from generation to generation.

third,the problems that pat talked about were previously written by black leaders, booker t and w.e.b. .

fourth, at the time of the report black men were entering college and graduate schools in in large amounts instead of the penal system. also they offered jobs that were not available in the past.

finally, what did blue eyes pat do to correct the matter,prior,nothing.

to my remarks inreference to irish gangs and the mafia. they still exist.

he needed to clean up his own ethnic back yard first. I think the value of the study wasn't that it provided answers, but that it lead to more questions that could help provide insight.

For me, that anyone would perform a study such as this is valuable, regardless of their race. Anything to get the discussion going, IMO.

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by music:
first,read the bell curve;find out what it said about whites. i know what it said about blacks. ummmm this particular argument concerns BLACKS - stick to the point


second, anybody could've produced the study that pat wrote for one,ok. you missed what i saying about the irish gangs and mafia- there seem to be a cycle of them joining from generation to generation. [/QB]but anybody DIDN"T produce the report now did they - and you've missed the point the irish and italian have both moved up and out of the ghetto after only a few generations while blacks seem to make the lifestyle and intergenerational inheritance - WHY?


third,the problems that pat talked about were previously written by black leaders, booker t and w.e.b. . [/QB]you mean you have to look back 2 generations (50 years) to find a reference to his study, and i suppose things didn't change in the intervening period....and if we were talking about these problems are we as a people so ****ed that a white guy had to reexamine the VERY SAME ISSUE 50 years later - talk about progress!


fourth, at the time of the report black men were entering college and graduate schools in in large amounts instead of the penal system. also they offered jobs that were not available in the past.[/QB]really! and even if what you state is a fact it has nothing to do with the argument that their is a cycle of desperation amongst a segment of the black population that is pervasive and carriess from one generation to the next - if your argument was that those entering the educational system were from this underclass then your point (if true) would have some validity


finally, what did blue eyes pat do to correct the matter,prior,nothing.[/QB]first what did the color of his eyes have to do with the validity of his argument
second, he supported a lot of legislation that was of benefit to the minority community
lastly and most importantly what are blacks themselves doing to correct these STILL present conditions - and btw, singing we shall overcome, lining up for guvment cheese, and not saving and creating wealth or educating our kids is pitifully the same state of affairs as we had 30 years ago - wake up niggers, white america is inured to that same ole song of victimhood (especially now that we live in the era off mandatory two earner families and extensive government tax cuts and program cuts) - we are entering a new age of social darwinism and all that it entails - if American blacks aren't equipped to survive then **** em - then again theres always prison or the military (and guess which more of our youth choose)

I find the black apologista to be too boring

[ March 28, 2003, 12:56 PM: Message edited by: djmarkbethemechanic ]

[C hristian]

he would eat lunch many many times at the Brasserie, on Cap Hill, by himself, at the bar.

Anyone could just pull up a chair and talk to one of the best minds in DC for free. Not much to it.

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by C hristian:
he would eat lunch many many times at the Brasserie, on Cap Hill, by himself, at the bar.

Anyone could just pull up a chair and talk to one of the best minds in DC for free. Not much to it. a great story..he always struck me as a humble soul

[TAD]

Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
Moynihan's central thesis was that the Black family is immersed in a weak and unstable subculture. In this subculture, matriarchy is the dominant form..........Sorry to bud in on this thread. I certainly do not have the vast knowledge that many possess on this board & I am always humbled by what I learn here but I have to say that the Moynihan report is full of shit & racist in origin. what he’s basically saying here is that black women, black mothers are not fit to raise black children. Think what you want but this is the main crux of his report.

[music]

again, you continue to missed the valid point, the very same people in those irish gangs and mafia stay in there hoods where they were reared.

and that's one of the reasons why they attack a brother when they see him in their hood. they are not exposed to the rest of the society.

you should ask professional civil servants what contact do they have with minorities outside of arresting them and working with them?none.

you should look at discrimination in housing, jobs, college admissions,board members and sports mgmt. in our society. ok. and then make your arguments.

pat was no Adam Clayton Powell; maybe a ed koch.

also,may he rest in peace.

[ March 28, 2003, 08:10 PM: Message edited by: music ]

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
Moynihan's central thesis was that the Black family is immersed in a weak and unstable subculture. In this subculture, matriarchy is the dominant form..........Sorry to bud in on this thread. I certainly do not have the vast knowledge that many possess on this board & I am always humbled by what I learn here but I have to say that the Moynihan report is full of shit & racist in origin. what he’s basically saying here is that black women, black mothers are not fit to raise black children. Think what you want but this is the main crux of his report. </font>[/QUOTE]actually what he was saying i that the black underclass is dominated by a matriarchal system - i.e. the lack of the black male in the home...as we all know women earn much less than men. also, the women who are hving kids and raising families are ill equipped to do so, having no training which is relevant to the workforce and no options other than welfare and other orms of government dependancy....i think the fact that he allows that this underclass is matriarchal is more a condemnation of the black male in this society and i heartily endorse that view

[music]

ok, mr louis gates or dr.cornel west. what are your solutions?

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by music:
again, you continue to missed the valid point, the very same people in those irish gangs and mafia stay in there hoods where they were reared.

and that's one of the reasons why they attack a brother when they see him in their hood. they are not exposed to the rest of the society.

you should ask professional civil servants what contact do they have with minorities outside of arresting them and working with them?none.

you should look at discrimination in housing, jobs, college admissions,board members and sports mgmt. in our society. ok. and then make your arguments.

pat was no Adam Clayton Powell; maybe a ed koch.

also,may he rest in peace. your argument contains a glaring contradiction - you imply that the irish and italians are involved in thi same cycle of poverty and yet note how they never see blacks due to their civil service jobs ( meaning middle class) and their neighborhood affiliation ( sorry - but if you can show me the masses of white ghettoes of italians and irish i'll be jiggered)

the fact is that the irish and italians in this country were originally gehttoized and marginlized (as recently depicted in scorceses gangs of ny) however they both , as groups got out of the ghetto and are in mainstream america en masse

am i lying?

and can blacks make that same claim

[f0reverneverm0re]

Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
too many chicken eating, malt lquor guzzling NIGGERSwhat's wrong with chicken and malt liquor??

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by music:
ok, mr louis gates or dr.cornel west. what are your solutions? go to school, get a job,save some money wear a rubber and stay off drugs

and last but not least VOTE

its really just that simple

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music:
ok, mr louis gates or dr.cornel west. what are your solutions? go to school, get a job,save some money wear a rubber and stay off drugs

and last but not least VOTE

its really just that simple </font>[/QUOTE]i can hear the apologista now....that shit is hard, there are so many obstacles - BULLSHIT...nuff excuses its time for action

i was raised by a single mom (and she is black) and i made it through...WHY cause SHE WAS INVOLVED - after school, shots, cheese line, the old NCAA summer programs, library card -, PTA.....and she wasn't even born in this country..****ing lazy american blacks don't even know who their congress person is yet y'all wanna get forty acres and a mule- wadda ****ing joke - keep holdin your breath - Santa clause and the easter bunny will put em under your pillows while ya sleep off the olde englishe

[f0reverneverm0re]

Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
the fact is that the irish and italians in this country were originally gehttoized and marginlized (as recently depicted in scorceses gangs of ny) however they both , as groups got out of the ghetto and are in mainstream america en masse

am i lying?

and can blacks make that same claim there are black middle/upper-middle class hoods (Prince George's County MD had a few such enclaves last i knew) and there's the Cosby Show and Dr. Julius Hibert on The Simpsons.

and though most 'communities' have problems, i know i'm not the only one who has heard more than 1 African-american state that "there is no [such thing as the] Black community"?

such commenting doesn't affect me since I_Am_Ironman (thank you Ozzy), but i feel it's the sellout negroes are the first to cry this out.

also to vent, why are the people who talk black black black always the first ones to knife you in the back? hm, i wonder.

another Pleasant Valley Sunday

(and obviously 'race' doesn't matter--what really does?)

maybe Blacks in the US need to move to Turkey...

[f0reverneverm0re]

Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music:
ok, mr louis gates or dr.cornel west. what are your solutions? VOTE</font>[/QUOTE]for who/what? why??

my own beliefs are in my song

[Shalewa]

Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
Moynihan's central thesis was that the Black family is immersed in a weak and unstable subculture. In this subculture, matriarchy is the dominant form..........Sorry to bud in on this thread. I certainly do not have the vast knowledge that many possess on this board & I am always humbled by what I learn here but I have to say that the Moynihan report is full of shit & racist in origin. what he’s basically saying here is that black women, black mothers are not fit to raise black children. Think what you want but this is the main crux of his report. </font>[/QUOTE]actually what he was saying i that the black underclass is dominated by a matriarchal system - i.e. the lack of the black male in the home...as we all know women earn much less than men. also, the women who are hving kids and raising families are ill equipped to do so, having no training which is relevant to the workforce and no options other than welfare and other orms of government dependancy....i think the fact that he allows that this underclass is matriarchal is more a condemnation of the black male in this society and i heartily endorse that view </font>[/QUOTE]On the dole or up on the hill, if the Moynihan Report is to be believed, the crisis most threatening Black families was that Black women were too powerful and thereby psychologically castrating Black men exacerbating the damage to their already more more deeply wounded post-slavery psyches. My biggest problem with the report is that it legitimized the notion that Black women's economic and educational successes, born of necessity or not, came at grave cost to Black men and by extension Black children and families. The report held up patriarchy as the model social order and while finding tremendous fault with Black women, painted Black men as disempowered victims not only of the White power structure but also of domineering Black women, a notion which in my opinion has been far more damaging to Black families than mythological matriarchy ever could have been.

[music]

well, thanks shalewa,no more needs to be said on this topic, thanks again. points well explained and taken.

this case is a wrap.

[ March 28, 2003, 11:30 PM: Message edited by: music ]

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music:
ok, mr louis gates or dr.cornel west. what are your solutions? go to school, get a job,save some money wear a rubber and stay off drugs

and last but not least VOTE

its really just that simple </font>[/QUOTE]Solutions ? get involved is the solution.

A good part of my current success is do to the intervention of others when I was young. This can help break the cycle of poverty. Mentoring, Big Brothers, getting involved in after school programs..etc. The children need to see good role models. Take these children to places they have never been to before thereby expanding their horizons. Pass on your skills to a child (especially computer skills). The digital divide as its called can be closed. Donate a computer to a whole family and train them how to use it. I was watching CNN yesterday and Tavis Smiley was on briefly talking about a computer training program that he was involved in that had gotten a grant from Microsoft to train whole families on how to use computers. Linda and I have been doing this for some time now in our spare time so I was thinking that would be a great next step. The feeling that you get from seeing these kids master what you teach them, gain confidence in other subjects and then get jobs is incredible. Do it now !

-G

[gabriel]

i wouldn't take that from the report at all. i think the report is about the factors surrounding the black community and how it effectuates a cyclical pattern.

if it's saying anything about women's ability to raise children it ties them to those factors.

y'know, as an aside, the supreme court is hearing a HUGE case this session on affirmative action. i have a feeling that if the court strikes down michigan's affirmative action policy, that they will be belittled on this board as racists. but i also have the feeling that if they uphold it, some reason will be found to again belittle them as racists. maybe that's presumptive of me...but i've come to expect such things from DHP. anyone want to tell me what the point of doing that is? anyone want to tell me the positive change it effects? i'm at a loss, but it's the same shit as this conversation.

also...citing to 'the bell curve' isn't very weighty. everyone knows that's white suppremacist hallmark literature.

[gabriel]

crap.
again i'd only read the 1st page and replied.
i hate it when i do that.

[Bold Soul]

So much culture revolves around the triumphant Black female and her struggle to selflessly rear her children with no man to help. Check out movies, television and music that deifies "mama". Remember when Oprah was Black? How about Alice Walker?

I am certain the roots of this can be debated (what slavery tactic caused what and so forth), but no one can deny that, as far as cultural images are concerned, the Black mother is the heavy. Most "don't need a man" - an ego driven falsity supported by culture.

Single black women are conditioned to raise their sons to be their husbands, by the television, their peers and their gov't, who doesn't mind subordinating fathers via family court, custody laws and the welfare system, who indirectly encourages the demise of the parental unit of the lower class (regardless of race) through the restriction of benefits of two parent families.

Many expect more from Black fathers than the system allows - and I'm speaking of cultural conditioning and laws on the books when I mean "system".

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by music:
well, thanks shalewa,no more needs to be said on this topic, thanks again. points well explained and taken.

this case is a wrap. now that shows some deeeep thought and willingness to expand on ONES position in an intellectually stimulating way

however next time be more parsimonious in your use of words.....might i suggest "ditto"

[ March 29, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: your idol, Buddy Love ]

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
Moynihan's central thesis was that the Black family is immersed in a weak and unstable subculture. In this subculture, matriarchy is the dominant form..........Sorry to bud in on this thread. I certainly do not have the vast knowledge that many possess on this board & I am always humbled by what I learn here but I have to say that the Moynihan report is full of shit & racist in origin. what he’s basically saying here is that black women, black mothers are not fit to raise black children. Think what you want but this is the main crux of his report. </font>[/QUOTE]actually what he was saying i that the black underclass is dominated by a matriarchal system - i.e. the lack of the black male in the home...as we all know women earn much less than men. also, the women who are hving kids and raising families are ill equipped to do so, having no training which is relevant to the workforce and no options other than welfare and other orms of government dependancy....i think the fact that he allows that this underclass is matriarchal is more a condemnation of the black male in this society and i heartily endorse that view </font>[/QUOTE]On the dole or up on the hill, if the Moynihan Report is to be believed, the crisis most threatening Black families was that Black women were too powerful and thereby psychologically castrating Black men exacerbating the damage to their already more more deeply wounded post-slavery psyches. My biggest problem with the report is that it legitimized the notion that Black women's economic and educational successes, born of necessity or not, came at grave cost to Black men and by extension Black children and families. The report held up patriarchy as the model social order and while finding tremendous fault with Black women, painted Black men as disempowered victims not only of the White power structure but also of domineering Black women, a notion which in my opinion has been far more damaging to Black families than mythological matriarchy ever could have been. </font>[/QUOTE]while a lot of women get caught out there it doesn't mean that it's a conspiracy...the view you espouse is a black feminist one and to my thinking fallacious...why - black women with children and without a man in the household are occupying the lowest stratas of society....it's not about "psychological castration" but about the fact that black children are being marginalized due to the lack of the black male as a supporting (and i do mean SUPPORT) member of the family structure..the "success" of black women has nothing to with an associated devaluation of black males - that is standing the argument on its head. the point is that blacks are doing badly because of a persistent lack of black FATHERS in the family structure....and this is the main reason (to my thinking) that blacks keep falling behind all other ethnic groups

i'm sorry but women shouldn't be left to raise the kids on what little the gubment has to dole out...its up to sorry ass black men to step up and handle their business - thats how you break a cycle of gubment dependency
(damn sounds Moynihanian/Farrakhanian to me)
i'm amazed that i have to argue about the value of family structures

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
So much culture revolves around the triumphant Black female and her struggle to selflessly rear her children with no man to help. Check out movies, television and music that deifies "mama". Remember when Oprah was Black? How about Alice Walker?

I am certain the roots of this can be debated (what slavery tactic caused what and so forth), but no one can deny that, as far as cultural images are concerned, the Black mother is the heavy. Most "don't need a man" - an ego driven falsity supported by culture.

Single black women are conditioned to raise their sons to be their husbands, by the television, their peers and their gov't, who doesn't mind subordinating fathers via family court, custody laws and the welfare system, who indirectly encourages the demise of the parental unit of the lower class (regardless of race) through the restriction of benefits of two parent families.

Many expect more from Black fathers than the system allows - and I'm speaking of cultural conditioning and laws on the books when I mean "system". to me thats what makes Bill Cosby so refreshing...from the time of Fat Albert on he has ALWAYS shown the "oddity" of a black family...you know, one WITH A FATHER...how novel

peeps can say all they want but the black underclass of NIGGERS step off on their kids more than any other ethnic group (btw - i disagree with the notion that the government makes it hard to stay together - what the **** does any government have to do with staying WITH your kids and their mother - times are tight?!!! - yeah but they are much tighter when poppa splits the scene - a minor disagreement with your argument Bold but a meaningful one to me) and even if you can't live together why aint cats SUPPORTING their kids

maybe if we had more fathers in the community we could educate, feed, nurture, clothe and most importantly discipline our kids afore the gubment does it for us (i.e. jail)

[ March 29, 2003, 01:26 PM: Message edited by: your idol, Buddy Love ]

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by Gman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by music:
ok, mr louis gates or dr.cornel west. what are your solutions? go to school, get a job,save some money wear a rubber and stay off drugs

and last but not least VOTE

its really just that simple </font>[/QUOTE]Solutions ? get involved is the solution.

A good part of my current success is do to the intervention of others when I was young. This can help break the cycle of poverty. Mentoring, Big Brothers, getting involved in after school programs..etc. The children need to see good role models. Take these children to places they have never been to before thereby expanding their horizons. Pass on your skills to a child (especially computer skills). The digital divide as its called can be closed. Donate a computer to a whole family and train them how to use it. I was watching CNN yesterday and Tavis Smiley was on briefly talking about a computer training program that he was involved in that had gotten a grant from Microsoft to train whole families on how to use computers. Linda and I have been doing this for some time now in our spare time so I was thinking that would be a great next step. The feeling that you get from seeing these kids master what you teach them, gain confidence in other subjects and then get jobs is incredible. Do it now !

-G </font>[/QUOTE]thanks G, wise words....
i have and still encourage kids in my nabe...i got many into djing or into sports just by interacting with them...i also still try to steer them away from my mistakes (drugs) by telling them about my experiences...i've talked with kids about going back to school and getting their education (i'm a h.s. dropout yet i got my bs. degree)

ultimately whats required is the willingness to be involved

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
So much culture revolves around the triumphant Black female and her struggle to selflessly rear her children with no man to help. Check out movies, television and music that deifies "mama". Remember when Oprah was Black? How about Alice Walker?

I am certain the roots of this can be debated (what slavery tactic caused what and so forth), but no one can deny that, as far as cultural images are concerned, the Black mother is the heavy. Most "don't need a man" - an ego driven falsity supported by culture.

Single black women are conditioned to raise their sons to be their husbands, by the television, their peers and their gov't, who doesn't mind subordinating fathers via family court, custody laws and the welfare system, who indirectly encourages the demise of the parental unit of the lower class (regardless of race) through the restriction of benefits of two parent families.

Many expect more from Black fathers than the system allows - and I'm speaking of cultural conditioning and laws on the books when I mean "system". to me thats what makes Bill Cosby so refreshing...from the time of Fat Albert on he has ALWAYS shown the "oddity" of a black family...you know, one WITH A FATHER...how novel

peeps can say all they want but the black underclass of NIGGERS step off on their kids more than any other ethnic group (btw - i disagree with the notion that the government makes it hard to stay together - what the **** does any government have to do with staying WITH your kids and their mother - times are tight?!!! - yeah but they are much tighter when poppa splits the scene - a minor disagreement with your argument Bold but a meaningful one to me) and even if you can't live together why aint cats SUPPORTING their kids

maybe if we had more fathers in the community we could educate, feed, nurture, clothe and most importantly discipline our kids afore the gubment does it for us (i.e. jail) </font>[/QUOTE]Culture and the system provide elements to keep families apart AFTER the decision to be apart occurrs - therefore we do agree. ;)

Cultural reinforcement of family values is very absent, IMO, but which came first - the chicken or the egg?

[music]

point well explained and taken mr g man. it was a good father and mother along w/ early intervention that help w/ me. also i am presently giving back.

[Shalewa]

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shalewa:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarkbethemechanic:
Moynihan's central thesis was that the Black family is immersed in a weak and unstable subculture. In this subculture, matriarchy is the dominant form..........Sorry to bud in on this thread. Icertainly do not have the vast knowledge that many possess on this board & I am always humbled by what I learn here but I have to say that the Moynihan report is full of shit & racist in origin. what he’s basically saying here is that black women, black mothers are not fit to raise black children. Think what you want but this is the main crux of his report. </font>[/QUOTE]actually what he was saying i that the black underclass is dominated by a matriarchal system - i.e. the lack of the black male in the home...as we all know women earn much less than men. also, the women who are hving kids and raising families are ill equipped to do so, having no training which is relevant to the workforce and no options other than welfare and other orms of government dependancy....i think the fact that he allows that this underclass is matriarchal is more a condemnation of the black male in this society and i heartily endorse that view </font>[/QUOTE]On the dole or up on the hill, if the Moynihan Report is to be believed, the crisis most threatening Black families was that Black women were too powerful and thereby psychologically castrating Black men exacerbating the damage to their already more more deeply wounded post-slavery psyches. My biggest problem with the report is that it legitimized the notion that Black women's economic and educational successes, born of necessity or not, came at grave cost to Black men and by extension Black children and families. The report held up patriarchy as the model social order and while finding tremendous fault with Black women, painted Black men as disempowered victims not only of the White power structure but also of domineering Black women, a notion which in my opinion has been far more damaging to Black families than mythological matriarchy ever could have been. </font>[/QUOTE]while a lot of women get caught out there it doesn't mean that it's a conspiracy...the view you espouse is a black feminist one and to my thinking fallacious...why - black women with children and without a man in the household are occupying the lowest stratas of society....it's not about "psychological castration" but about the fact that black children are being marginalized due to the lack of the black male as a supporting (and i do mean SUPPORT) member of the family structure..the "success" of black women has nothing to with an associated devaluation of black males - that is standing the argument on its head. the point is that blacks are doing badly because of a persistent lack of black FATHERS in the family structure....and this is the main reason (to my thinking) that blacks keep falling behind all other ethnic groups

i'm sorry but women shouldn't be left to raise the kids on what little the gubment has to dole out...its up to sorry ass black men to step up and handle their business - thats how you break a cycle of gubment dependency
(damn sounds Moynihanian/Farrakhanian to me)
i'm amazed that i have to argue about the value of family structures </font>[/QUOTE]
Negro females have established a strong position for themselves in white collar and professional employment. . . . Where special efforts have been made to insure equal employment opportunity for Negroes, . . . it may well be that these efforts have redounded mostly to the benefit of Negro women.

The testimony to the effects of these patterns in Negro family structure is widespread and hardly to be doubted:

The male may react with bitterness toward society, agression . . . , self-hatred, or crime.

. . . increases in the Negro illegitimacy rate . . . .

(source: http://www.u.arizona.edu/ic/mcbride/indv/indvmoyn.htm The above is taken from the text of the report. I no longer own a copy, so I am forced to rely on what citations I can find online. This quote came closest to reflecting my understanding of what Moynihan wrote and why I find it problematic. Moynihan kept coming back again and again to the image of Black women as dominant and Black men as emasculated. While I do not apologize for being a feminist and for finding patriarchy a system that is fraught with danger and dysfunction for men and women I am in no way endorsing the abandonment of parental responsibility or denying the truth that the strongest and healthiest families are those in which both parents are actively engaged in child rearing. I am finding fault with Moynihan's backhanded advocacy for keeping women oppressed (he noted as problematic and "pathological" that even in Black families headed by married couples that 44% of wives were the dominant partner), giving legitamacy to some of the most odious sterotypes of Black men and Black women.

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
So much culture revolves around the triumphant Black female and her struggle to selflessly rear her children with no man to help. Check out movies, television and music that deifies "mama". Remember when Oprah was Black? How about Alice Walker?

I am certain the roots of this can be debated (what slavery tactic caused what and so forth), but no one can deny that, as far as cultural images are concerned, the Black mother is the heavy. Most "don't need a man" - an ego driven falsity supported by culture.

Single black women are conditioned to raise their sons to be their husbands, by the television, their peers and their gov't, who doesn't mind subordinating fathers via family court, custody laws and the welfare system, who indirectly encourages the demise of the parental unit of the lower class (regardless of race) through the restriction of benefits of two parent families.

Many expect more from Black fathers than the system allows - and I'm speaking of cultural conditioning and laws on the books when I mean "system". to me thats what makes Bill Cosby so refreshing...from the time of Fat Albert on he has ALWAYS shown the "oddity" of a black family...you know, one WITH A FATHER...how novel

peeps can say all they want but the black underclass of NIGGERS step off on their kids more than any other ethnic group (btw - i disagree with the notion that the government makes it hard to stay together - what the **** does any government have to do with staying WITH your kids and their mother - times are tight?!!! - yeah but they are much tighter when poppa splits the scene - a minor disagreement with your argument Bold but a meaningful one to me) and even if you can't live together why aint cats SUPPORTING their kids

maybe if we had more fathers in the community we could educate, feed, nurture, clothe and most importantly discipline our kids afore the gubment does it for us (i.e. jail) </font>[/QUOTE]Culture and the system provide elements to keep families apart AFTER the decision to be apart occurrs - therefore we do agree. ;)

Cultural reinforcement of family values is very absent, IMO, but which came first - the chicken or the egg? </font>[/QUOTE]i can dig it

[music]

sounds like william lynch to me,a former slave master teaching other slave-owners how to deal w/ the slave based on light-skin,dark-skin,and fair-skin.

diff. writer, same game.only one thing,it's economics and education.the new game will be social and political.

[ March 29, 2003, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: music ]

[f0reverneverm0re]

Originally posted by Gman:
Donate a computer to a whole family"donate" or *give*? donate makes em sound like a "charity case" (IMO)

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by f0reverneverm0re:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gman:
Donate a computer to a whole family"donate" or *give*? donate makes em sound like a "charity case" (IMO) </font>[/QUOTE]The important part was teach them how to use it.

-G

[sammyrock]

Yes he wil be missed indeed. :(

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by music:
sounds like william lynch to me,a former slave master teaching other slave-owners how to deal w/ the slave based on light-skin,dark-skin,and fair-skin.

diff. writer, same game.only one thing,it's economics and education.the new game will be social and political. on second thought, let shalewa do the talking

i have no idea what you're trying to say

[f0reverneverm0re]

Originally posted by Gman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by f0reverneverm0re:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gman:
Donate a computer to a whole family"donate" or *give*? donate makes em sound like a "charity case" (IMO) </font>[/QUOTE]The important part was teach them how to use it.

-G </font>[/QUOTE]i know, splitting hairs--"I'm a baaad boy." (Lou Costello)

[jahsonic]

Moyhnihan had good PR.

He was not always on the side of the angels and his "report" on the state of the black family was crap on a shingle.

My issues with the Moynihan report are staunchly academic. He looked at some demographic data and reached conclusions without bothering to try to establish causation (in the statistical and methodological sense of the word).

Hence, his conclusions are suspect.

This is the issue that academics have with the report.

He looked at the phenomena of mother-headed families, the phenomena of poverty, and the phenomena of pathology and concluded that it was the mother-headed families that cause the latter two phenomena.

He glosses over the primary cause of mother-headed families, particularly during the time-period he was writing about, as being rooted in poverty not a cause of poverty.

For example, there was still widespread discrimination that kept blacks out of most job structures.

This made it very difficult for black males to gain stable employment that was sufficient to support a family.

This coupled with the "man in the house rules" that were selectively applied to blacks, particularly blacks living the South, practically forced black males to make a choice to either continue to struggle attempting to support their families or jet so that they could receive government assistance. Some chose to stay many chose to leave. But, the poverty was there long before they left.

Also in the report, Moynihan identifies black females as the culprits in emasculating black men.

However, black males were emasculated by a social structure set up by whites that was designed to "keep them in their place."

For example, black males had virtually no control vis-a-vis protecting their women as the more gallant white males did because the legal structure did not recognize them as having such rights.

Nor did the legal structure recognize black women as having control over their bodies. We were well into the 1970's before juries would convict a white man for raping a black woman.

As for Beyond the Melting Pot, they tend to ignore the fundamental problems blacks and other ethnic (non-white) groups had in "melting."

Aside from the obvious racial and linguistic barriers, Glazer and Moynihan fail to account for the effects of the breakdown in machine politics in limiting "melting" for blacks and Puerto Ricans.

Banefield and Wilson in City Politics do a really good job of outlining the effects the breakdown of the machine systems in Northern urban centers had on the ability of blacks and Puerto Ricans to assimilate and be upwardly mobile.

Their core point is that white ethnic groups (particularly the Italians and the Irish) used their control over political machines to gain power and eventually move up the social/political/economic structure.

However, by the time blacks and Puerto Ricans made it to the major urban centers and were in a position to exercise power because of increasing numbers, most political machines had been successfully dismantled.

Thus a key mechanism for social, political, and economic mobility was removed right at the time blacks and Puerto Ricans were in a position to take advantage of that mechanism.

Generally, the Moynihan Report, Beyond the Melting Pot, and Oscar Lewis' La Vida: A Puerto Rican Family in the Culture of Poverty are all a part of a trend in scholarship that emerged in the late 60s and early 70s that sought to explain poverty as a function of individual and cultural traits as opposed to structural barriers. They were "blaming the victim" (see William Ryan Blaming the Victim (1971)).

This is largely what William Julius Wilson was responding to when he wrote The Declining Significance of Race (1978) and The Truly Disadvantaged (1987).

My other major problem with Moynihan centers around human rights, more specifically his role in undermining UN efforts to prevent the United States from providing aid to Indonesia in its invasion of East Timor, an invasion that killed 1/3 of the population of that small nation. Moynihan openly bragged in his memoirs:

"The US Department of State desired that the United Nations prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook [against Indonesia]. This task was given to me, and I carried it forward with no inconsiderable success."

That is what is scary about media, it can be used to manipulate the most monstrous, pernicious act into one of selfless service and benevolence.

While I am reluctant to express joy over the death of another human being, I will say that Moynihan will not be missed and that I hope he made peace with the creator before he died.

[ April 01, 2003, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: jahsonic ]

[f0reverneverm0re]

Originally posted by jahsonic:
black males were emasculated by a social structure set up by whites that was designed to "keep them in their place."please capitalize "Whites"

[jahsonic]

please capitalize "Whites"Why?

[mhd]

great posts, jahsonic, always good to see you here

[Shalewa]

jahsonic,

Good to see you indeed. Missed you mightily on Saturday.

[jahsonic]

Thanks.

Just trying to bring a little balance on the subject.

It makes me sad when people laud a guy like Moynihan in one breath while blaming poor people for their condition in another.

'Poverty Pimps'?

This accurately describes Moynihan and his ilk to the T. Pretending to be benevolent 'friends of the negro' and offering to selflessly record the progress and assist the efforts at improvement of this 'benighted people' in exchange for prestige in to the halls of power and access to the coffers of the Great Society.

He was as venal and self-serving as any of the Dixiecrats he positioned as idealogical foils to his designs.

[jahsonic]

'sup Shalewa! Sorry I missed you Saturday.

I was in down in DC (doing the house thing of course), this past weekend.

[mhd]

where in dc? did you have a good time?

[jahsonic]

I'm a native DCer so I always have a good time.

I made it by Red on Saturday. I also ended up hopping bars in Adams Morgan. Mantis was pretty cool and the Blue Room was tryin' ta jump a little bit.

I also heard about the 'Black' [Pick out Yo' Soul] party that is starting up this Thursday. The lineup looks pretty good.

When Sanctuary comes back, they will have a pretty action-packed scene down there for the soulful house heads.

[ April 01, 2003, 03:17 PM: Message edited by: jahsonic ]

[mhd]

shoulda known, can't wait for the sanctuary, should be any day now. i was at the shelter a couple of weeks ago and i must admit i was spoiled,

[djmarkbethemechanic]

Originally posted by jahsonic:
Moyhnihan had good PR.

He was not always on the side of the angels and his "report" on the state of the black family was crap on a shingle.

My issues with the Moynihan report are staunchly academic. He looked at some demographic data and reached conclusions without bothering to try to establish causation (in the statistical and methodological sense of the word).

Hence, his conclusions are suspect.

This is the issue that academics have with the report.

He looked at the phenomena of mother-headed families, the phenomena of poverty, and the phenomena of pathology and concluded that it was the mother-headed families that cause the latter two phenomena.

He glosses over the primary cause of mother-headed families, particularly during the time-period he was writing about, as being rooted in poverty not a cause of poverty.

For example, there was still widespread discrimination that kept blacks out of most job structures.

This made it very difficult for black males to gain stable employment that was sufficient to support a family.

This coupled with the "man in the house rules" that were selectively applied to blacks, particularly blacks living the South, practically forced black males to make a choice to either continue to struggle attempting to support their families or jet so that they could receive government assistance. Some chose to stay many chose to leave. But, the poverty was there long before they left.

Also in the report, Moynihan identifies black females as the culprits in emasculating black men.

However, black males were emasculated by a social structure set up by whites that was designed to "keep them in their place."

For example, black males had virtually no control vis-a-vis protecting their women as the more gallant white males did because the legal structure did not recognize them as having such rights.

Nor did the legal structure recognize black women as having control over their bodies. We were well into the 1970's before juries would convict a white man for raping a black woman.

As for Beyond the Melting Pot, they tend to ignore the fundamental problems blacks and other ethnic (non-white) groups had in "melting."

Aside from the obvious racial and linguistic barriers, Glazer and Moynihan fail to account for the effects of the breakdown in machine politics in limiting "melting" for blacks and Puerto Ricans.

Banefield and Wilson in City Politics do a really good job of outlining the effects the breakdown of the machine systems in Northern urban centers had on the ability of blacks and Puerto Ricans to assimilate and be upwardly mobile.

Their core point is that white ethnic groups (particularly the Italians and the Irish) used their control over political machines to gain power and eventually move up the social/political/economic structure.

However, by the time blacks and Puerto Ricans made it to the major urban centers and were in a position to exercise power because of increasing numbers, most political machines had been successfully dismantled.

Thus a key mechanism for social, political, and economic mobility was removed right at the time blacks and Puerto Ricans were in a position to take advantage of that mechanism.

Generally, the Moynihan Report, Beyond the Melting Pot, and Oscar Lewis' La Vida: A Puerto Rican Family in the Culture of Poverty are all a part of a trend in scholarship that emerged in the late 60s and early 70s that sought to explain poverty as a function of individual and cultural traits as opposed to structural barriers. They were "blaming the victim" (see William Ryan Blaming the Victim (1971)).

This is largely what William Julius Wilson was responding to when he wrote The Declining Significance of Race (1978) and The Truly Disadvantaged (1987).

My other major problem with Moynihan centers around human rights, more specifically his role in undermining UN efforts to prevent the United States from providing aid to Indonesia in its invasion of East Timor, an invasion that killed 1/3 of the population of that small nation. Moynihan openly bragged in his memoirs:

"The US Department of State desired that the United Nations prove utterly ineffective in whatever measures it undertook [against Indonesia]. This task was given to me, and I carried it forward with no inconsiderable success."

That is what is scary about media, it can be used to manipulate the most monstrous, pernicious act into one of selfless service and benevolence.

While I am reluctant to express joy over the death of another human being, I will say that Moynihan will not be missed and that I hope he made peace with the creator before he died. poor black people.....

they shoot chinamen didn't they; "no dogs or Irish allowed; "the trail of tears" was long and cold; italians had to anglicize and the southeast is no longer mexican.....

all these peeps had /have a hard time of it (and gee whiz, some can hide behind skin color as a source of oppression tooooo, HMMMMM) and yet their MEN don't use the failure of government to pony up the handouts as a reason (and one that is laughably argued as valid) to leave their families....and guess what?..those ethnic groups are thriving
even BLACKS from the Carribean and Africa are thriving (AND they had funny accents AND gee whiz they can be called darkie/nigger/eggplants too - yet they were thriving during this very same period you site)......and that last point is the most damning because those peeps come from crushing poverty yet THEY ARE THRIVING (and keeping the family structure intact)
...i love to read the intellectual justification for good old American niggerdom - its so much easier to blame the MAN for the problem - that way niggers can do what they do best - sleep, eat, fight and **** ( gee Uncle Samuel that check sho nuff look small...after I lay this herer pipe in this bitch I better skip town - don't wanna make shit tough on my lil bastard children)

i love it

[ April 01, 2003, 04:48 PM: Message edited by: djmarkbethemechanic ]

[jahsonic]

poor black people.... You really want it don't you? Fine.

First of all, do the flimsy, self-hating, screeds ever stop?

I guess not. Let’s take a look at the (unresearched, unsubstantiated) points made by Mr. Mechanic.


they shoot chinamen didn't they;
Mr. Mechanic I think the correct tense of the verb is SHOT… but anyway.

They sure did. You do realize that America has had several waves of immigration from China don’t you? Very few of the initial immigrants who built the Transcontinental Railroad survived and their descendants are but an insignificant portion of America’s current Chinese-American population.

Also, they were VOLUNTARY IMMIGRANTS.

Read a history book why don’t you.


"no dogs or Irish allowed;”
These signs, which could found in most urban centers up until a little before WWI were examples of the harsh discrimination Irish immigrants also faced. It is common knowledge in the social sciences that from the late 1800s to the end of the Great Depression that Irish and German immigrants faced similar levels of youth incarceration as young black men today. About half of the households in the Irish-American communities of that day were headed by a female.

In fact, many an editorial was written about how the Irish were all drunken, fatherless bastards who should be deported and how the Italians were the cause of crime and corruption in government. The similarities to what blacks face today are frightening. Read a history book…or three.

Oh and by the way, they were VOLUNTARY IMMIGRANTS.


"the trail of tears" was long and cold;
Good point. Thanks for helping my thesis. As a result of policies like the Trail of Tears and the Indian Removal Act, the population of Native Americans is about .86% of what it was when the European settlers first arrived. Oh, I guess I might help you find a point (or a clue) by reminding you that it is estimated that over 80% of African-Americans have some Native American ancestry.


italians had to anglicize
It sure must be nice to have the right skin color to be allowed to anglicize to benefit from white priviledge. And guess what? The Italian language can still be heard if one visits an Italian-American community today.

In stark constrast, come up to Harlem (or any other black community) and wait to hear an African language being spoken. I guarantee it won’t be spoken by an African-American.

Since you want to bring up groups being *forced* to anglicize.


and the southeast is no longer mexican.....
It gets more and more Mexican everyday,(go to San Antonio if you don’t believe that. That IS Mexico for all intents and purposes) but what Mexicans have to do with anything is beyond me.



all these peeps had /have a hard time of it (and gee whiz, some can hide behind skin color as a source of oppression tooooo, HMMMMM)
What rhetorical ability! What command of languge! Wow, I reel at the potency of your senseless sarcasm. LOL.

This last bit of nonsense could be culled from any number of neoconservative websites. Let’s dissect it shall we?

In this country, there are exactly three *races* (as classified by the government) of people that as a group, have been deprived of life, property and full citizenship under the imprimatur of specific laws written to discriminate against them.

Blacks (specifically the descendants of African slaves), Native Americans and Asian-Americans (both Chinese and Japanese)

All three are non-white.

1. The plight of blacks is well documented (to se a similar corollary in another society, look at Koreans living in Japan. They face similar gaps in income, educational achievement and crime. Discrimination is the root cause.)

2. Native Americans have basically been decimated and struggle with substance abuse, low educational achievement, and crime. This, in spite of the fact that there has been a Bureau of Indian Affairs working on Native American issues for about 120 years (see the Indian Gaming Act, or the Alaska Native American claims Acts for example).

In contrast, the Freedmen’s’ Bureau was dissolved along with reconstruction and instead blacks received 90 years of Black Codes, and Jim Crow.

3. The first wave of Chinese Americans to come died like flies; few of their descendents survived. It took two additional waves of immigration from China for a beachhead to be established. That beachhead remains. It’s called Chinatown (in every major city), a self-contained, self-policed, segregated enclave which has at the same time amazing wealth AND appalling levels of poverty (if you really want to look). The communities almost always have an internal economic engine that feeds on submarket rate (sometimes even SLAVE) labor and is largely removed from political participation (the lowest voter registration numbers in most cities are in the various Chinatowns). A nice model to emulate for sure.

CUSTOMARY Discrimination (i.e. signs reading “No Irish Need apply”) did not carry the same destructive weight as laws written specifically for that purpose. These laws made even non-racists discriminate. That was ONE of the differences between what European immigrants faced vs. blacks.

This next set of (what barely passes for) sentences is hilarious. Generalize much?


and yet their MEN don't use the failure of government to pony up the handouts as a reason (and one that is laughably argued as valid) to leave their families....and guess what?.. Ladies and Gentlemen, this is what is called a straw man argument, meaning nobody actually made it. Meaning, Mr. Mechanic is arguing with no one.

By the way, poverty and out of wedlock childbirth is on the decline in black communities and increasing amogst whites.


those ethnic groups are thriving
Really? See above.


even BLACKS from the Carribean and Africa are thriving (AND they had funny accents AND gee whiz they can be called darkie/nigger/eggplants too - yet they were thriving during this very same period you site)
Blacks from other parts of the Diaspora have traditionally thrived where there is an AFRICAN-AMERICAN political and economic base to build on. Compare non-American black communities in cities where African-Americans were able to build economic and political infrastructure i.e. New York and Washington D.C. (they are doing relatively well) vs. non-American blacks immigrating to cities where this infrastructure is absent i.e Miami or London.


......and that last point is the most damning because those peeps come from crushing poverty, You need to get a clue. The South (where my peoples are from) had crushing poverty too. Martin Luther King went to sharecropping communities in Alabama in 1965 where he encountered blacks who had literally never seen American currency in ANY FORM. Not to mention the lack of heat in the winter, the lack of any plumbing, the lack of education and the state sponsored terrorism (see Jim Crow, the KKK)

Immigrants are by nature, self-selecting and as a result typically have more resources than those in the nations they leave behind.

In cases where entire ethnic groups are transplanted (thus no self-selection) you see similar problems to those black Americans face.

For example, the Hmong people were airlifted out of their native Vietnam and relocated to Minnesota with their social structures largely intact. Since then, they have struggled the same litany of problems you want to lay solely at the feet of black Americans; drugs, unemployment, youth crime and out of wedlock childbirth.


yet THEY ARE THRIVING (and keeping the family structure intact)
See above (A recap for the mechanic. Differences in Non-American Black immigrants, Koreans in Japan, The Hmong in Minnesota)


...i love to read the intellectual justification for good old American niggerdom My words are motivated by love for my people.

Your posts, which are barely English, drip with pettiness and your ideas are as limited as your vocabulary. I understand the need to use a public forum to deride others, but please don't make us sit through your therapy session.


- its so much easier to blame the MAN for the problem
I grew up in the ‘hood and STILL live in the ‘hood. There is plenty of blame for both sides, but it started with “the MAN” as you put it. While the blame may be distributed bilaterally, the suffering seems to be one sided. Relief from that suffering is what we need to be working on and blame doesn’t even enter the picture.


that way niggers can do what they do best - sleep, eat, fight and ****
You may as well be a Klansman saying bullshit like this.


( gee Uncle Samuel that check sho nuff look small...after I lay this here pipe in this bitch I better skip town - don't wanna make shit tough on my lil bastard children) And this paragraph describes what? Everybody who lives in poverty? Every black man? Puhleeze. Your generalizations are wack and don’t hold one ounce of water.

BTW, the Fake Ebonics make you look like a str8 Bama.


i love it
I doubt love is the motivation for anything you have written here. It all seems small, bitter and pinched in spirit.

Sucka.

[ April 02, 2003, 12:19 AM: Message edited by: jahsonic ]