Why do you use the term "nigger?" [Archive]

surreal

06-22-2003, 11:01 AM

Originally posted by Doctor Love:
I'll make an exception here.

George W. Bush is a nigger! I don't understand your use of the word. Could you please elaborate?

"nigger"

Pronunciation: 'ni-g&r
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of earlier neger, from Middle French negre, from Spanish or Portuguese negro, from negro black, from Latin niger
Date: 1700
1 usually offensive, see usage paragraph below : a black person
2 usually offensive, see usage paragraph below : a member of any dark-skinned race
3 : a member of a socially disadvantaged class of persons <it's time for somebody to lead all of America's niggers... all the people who feel left out of the political process -- Ron Dellums>
usage Nigger in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial slur in English. Its use by and among blacks is not always intended or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it is otherwise a word expressive of racial hatred and bigotry.

-- borrowed from the Merriam Webster Online Dictionary

Second, I find it interesting that the "blacks" (another questionable word) in reference are not addressed as Americans. After all, wasn't this term produced by Caucasian-Americans, and consumed by the majority, following the transport of Slaves to the United States?

mhd

06-22-2003, 11:04 AM

some "blacks" find the term "American" offensive

mhd

06-22-2003, 11:05 AM

Bold Soul

06-22-2003, 12:06 PM

Don't dig the term. Didn't when I was a kid - mostly because I only heard it in relation to negative connotations.

Problem is, when I encounter those from a different ilk that I still have mad love for, they refer to me as their "nigga" - with all the love and respect implied. Sometimes when I meet someone new, after a while I may be referred to as "nigga" in a respectful context. Do I walk away from all the value these unions hold simply because my understanding of the negative - even when the term is applied in the positive?

Honestly, most of my black acquaintences who refuse the word are bourgeois and have much less knowledge and cultural pride and respect than "my niggas".

Such paradoxes attributed to a mispronounciation of Spanish.

[ June 22, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

Doctor Love

06-22-2003, 12:13 PM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Doctor Love:
I'll make an exception here.

George W. Bush is a nigger! I don't understand your use of the word. Could you please elaborate?

"nigger"

Pronunciation: 'ni-g&r
Function: noun
Etymology: alteration of earlier neger, from Middle French negre, from Spanish or Portuguese negro, from negro black, from Latin niger
Date: 1700
1 usually offensive, see usage paragraph below : a black person
2 usually offensive, see usage paragraph below : a member of any dark-skinned race
3 : a member of a socially disadvantaged class of persons <it's time for somebody to lead all of America's niggers... all the people who feel left out of the political process -- Ron Dellums>
usage Nigger in senses 1 and 2 can be found in the works of such writers of the past as Joseph Conrad, Mark Twain, and Charles Dickens, but it now ranks as perhaps the most offensive and inflammatory racial slur in English. Its use by and among blacks is not always intended or taken as offensive, but, except in sense 3, it is otherwise a word expressive of racial hatred and bigotry.

-- borrowed from the Merriam Webster Online Dictionary

Second, I find it interesting that the "blacks" (another questionable word) in reference are not addressed as Americans. After all, wasn't this term produced by Caucasian-Americans, and consumed by the majority, following the transport of Slaves to the United States? [/QUOTE]The term is used so show disrepect.

The "classic" use of this word is to discribe a sub-human who is ignorant slave.

Hence George W. Bush is the biggest nigger out there right now.

An ignorant sub-human slave.

Sorry, I thought that this was self-explanitory! graemlins/conf44.gif

Wild i

06-22-2003, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wild i:
Okay, I'm going to risk banning here.

"Nigger" is an ignorant bastardization of a foreign language that has no positive or "true" meaning.

As far as I'm concerned, people who use it are ignorant, at least for the duration of the usage. There is no point that is made more valid by the use of that word. In fact, it tends to weaken almost any point.

Only niggers use and glorify the word "nigger."

Okay, Gman, I said it. Ban me if you must. You stumped me with the "Only niggers use and glorify the word nigger." Please elaborate on your use of the word. The way that reads to me, it sounds as if you believe there are "n*s" and then there are Black people? Or is this a play on the original meaning of the word? [/QUOTE]To clarify: I am using the word here to illucidate on the broader definition. "Nigger" does not simply mean a black person, it means a "foot shufflin', head scratchin', slow witted" black person. Further, it personifies (at least to me) the type of person who has low self-esteem and little concern for the larger implications of his/her actions. For example, the people who continue to promote violence in music even though people have died as both a direct and indirect result of such promotion. People who don't understand that using that term to discribe his/her own people, even while s/he tries to disassociate him/herself from a particular segment of the culture, still fosters that perception of us all and gives permission to others to identify us all that way.

For example when some of our black brothers and sisters act out and one of us says "niggers acting out again," I don't think non-black think "Certain members of the black community are acting out." or "Certain people of a community (whatever race) are acting out." I dare say, most non-blacks think "Black folks are acting out... again."

I hope this clarifies my position.

And

06-22-2003, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Wild i:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wild i:
Okay, I'm going to risk banning here.

"Nigger" is an ignorant bastardization of a foreign language that has no positive or "true" meaning.

As far as I'm concerned, people who use it are ignorant, at least for the duration of the usage. There is no point that is made more valid by the use of that word. In fact, it tends to weaken almost any point.

Only niggers use and glorify the word "nigger."

Okay, Gman, I said it. Ban me if you must. You stumped me with the "Only niggers use and glorify the word nigger." Please elaborate on your use of the word. The way that reads to me, it sounds as if you believe there are "n*s" and then there are Black people? Or is this a play on the original meaning of the word? [/QUOTE]To clarify: I am using the word here to illucidate on the broader definition. "Nigger" does not simply mean a black person, it means a "foot shufflin', head scratchin', slow witted" black person. Further, it personifies (at least to me) the type of person who has low self-esteem and little concern for the larger implications of his/her actions. For example, the people who continue to promote violence in music even though people have died as both a direct and indirect result of such promotion. People who don't understand that using that term to discribe his/her own people, even while s/he tries to disassociate him/herself from a particular segment of the culture, still fosters that perception of us all and gives permission to others to identify us all that way.

For example when some of our black brothers and sisters act out and one of us says "niggers acting out again," I don't think non-black think "Certain members of the black community are acting out." or "Certain people of a community (whatever race) are acting out." I dare say, most non-blacks think "Black folks are acting out... again."

I hope this clarifies my position. [/QUOTE]I read some of what you'res saying but again, trying to follow the reasoning you've provided, what do you mean by the sentence "only niggers use and glorify the term nigger" Who are the "niggers" you're referring to? Why would you use the very same word you don't support to refer to someone? Why not "only "ignorant" people use and support the term nigger." I guess I'm just not clear.

[ June 22, 2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: 6 23 ]

Wild i

06-22-2003, 03:04 PM

Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wild i:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wild i:
Okay, I'm going to risk banning here.

"Nigger" is an ignorant bastardization of a foreign language that has no positive or "true" meaning.

As far as I'm concerned, people who use it are ignorant, at least for the duration of the usage. There is no point that is made more valid by the use of that word. In fact, it tends to weaken almost any point.

Only niggers use and glorify the word "nigger."

Okay, Gman, I said it. Ban me if you must. You stumped me with the "Only niggers use and glorify the word nigger." Please elaborate on your use of the word. The way that reads to me, it sounds as if you believe there are "n*s" and then there are Black people? Or is this a play on the original meaning of the word? [/QUOTE]To clarify: I am using the word here to illucidate on the broader definition. "Nigger" does not simply mean a black person, it means a "foot shufflin', head scratchin', slow witted" black person. Further, it personifies (at least to me) the type of person who has low self-esteem and little concern for the larger implications of his/her actions. For example, the people who continue to promote violence in music even though people have died as both a direct and indirect result of such promotion. People who don't understand that using that term to discribe his/her own people, even while s/he tries to disassociate him/herself from a particular segment of the culture, still fosters that perception of us all and gives permission to others to identify us all that way.

For example when some of our black brothers and sisters act out and one of us says "niggers acting out again," I don't think non-black think "Certain members of the black community are acting out." or "Certain people of a community (whatever race) are acting out." I dare say, most non-blacks think "Black folks are acting out... again."

I hope this clarifies my position. [/QUOTE]I read some of what you'res saying but again, trying to follow the reasoning you've provided, what do you mean by the sentence "only niggers use and glorify the term nigger" Who are the "niggers" you're referring to? Why would you use the very same word you don't support to refer to someone? Why not "only ignorant people use and support the term nigger." I guess I'm just not clear. [/QUOTE]"Nigger" does not simply mean a black person, it means a "foot shufflin', head scratchin', slow witted" person. Further, it personifies (at least to me) the type of person who has low self-esteem and little concern for the larger implications of his/her actions.

I've removed the word "black" at the end of the first sentence. It goes way beyond simple ignorance. It goes to self-loathing. I know lots of ignorant people who never use the word "nigger."

Opinions.

houseaddict

06-22-2003, 03:20 PM

Originally posted by Wild i:
Okay, I'm going to risk banning here.

"Nigger" is an ignorant bastardization of a foreign language that has no positive or "true" meaning.

As far as I'm concerned, people who use it are ignorant, at least for the duration of the usage. There is no point that is made more valid by the use of that word. In fact, it tends to weaken almost any point.

Only niggers use and glorify the word "nigger."

Okay, Gman, I said it. Ban me if you must. Me sentiments exactly. I cannot stand to hear people using the word in anyway. I want to go up to people that I hear use and educate them about its origin and negative connotation. It makes no sense whatsoever to hear anyone referring to anyone/anything w/ that word in a positive inference.

With racist attitudes still exisiting throughout modern society, it strikes me funny to hear people's perception of this word having changed to such a degree that they actually refer to one another by it!! Its as if they thing that if they refer to one another as "nigga", it may be different that "nigger". Come on people!! ITs the same thing - STOP!

[ June 22, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: houseaddict ]

And

06-22-2003, 03:32 PM

Originally posted by Wild i:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wild i:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Wild i:
Okay, I'm going to risk banning here.

"Nigger" is an ignorant bastardization of a foreign language that has no positive or "true" meaning.

As far as I'm concerned, people who use it are ignorant, at least for the duration of the usage. There is no point that is made more valid by the use of that word. In fact, it tends to weaken almost any point.

Only niggers use and glorify the word "nigger."

Okay, Gman, I said it. Ban me if you must. You stumped me with the "Only niggers use and glorify the word nigger." Please elaborate on your use of the word. The way that reads to me, it sounds as if you believe there are "n*s" and then there are Black people? Or is this a play on the original meaning of the word? [/QUOTE]To clarify: I am using the word here to illucidate on the broader definition. "Nigger" does not simply mean a black person, it means a "foot shufflin', head scratchin', slow witted" black person. Further, it personifies (at least to me) the type of person who has low self-esteem and little concern for the larger implications of his/her actions. For example, the people who continue to promote violence in music even though people have died as both a direct and indirect result of such promotion. People who don't understand that using that term to discribe his/her own people, even while s/he tries to disassociate him/herself from a particular segment of the culture, still fosters that perception of us all and gives permission to others to identify us all that way.

For example when some of our black brothers and sisters act out and one of us says "niggers acting out again," I don't think non-black think "Certain members of the black community are acting out." or "Certain people of a community (whatever race) are acting out." I dare say, most non-blacks think "Black folks are acting out... again."

I hope this clarifies my position. [/QUOTE]I read some of what you'res saying but again, trying to follow the reasoning you've provided, what do you mean by the sentence "only niggers use and glorify the term nigger" Who are the "niggers" you're referring to? Why would you use the very same word you don't support to refer to someone? Why not "only ignorant people use and support the term nigger." I guess I'm just not clear. [/QUOTE]"Nigger" does not simply mean a black person, it means a "foot shufflin', head scratchin', slow witted" person. Further, it personifies (at least to me) the type of person who has low self-esteem and little concern for the larger implications of his/her actions.

I've removed the word "black" at the end of the first sentence. It goes way beyond simple ignorance. It goes to self-loathing. I know lots of ignorant people who never use the word "nigger."

Opinions. [/QUOTE]I'm following, I'm following ... I offered "ignorant" as an option only within this context (the use of the term nigger). Thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

The Buddy Love Show

06-22-2003, 06:27 PM

i only use it when i'm talkin about niggers

i hear black folk use the word everyday so we here on this board are of a group that is atypical - am i lying?

And

06-22-2003, 06:32 PM

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
i only use it when i'm talkin about niggers

i hear black folk use the word everyday so we here on this board are of a group that is atypical - am i lying? No ... we here are some people that choose not to use the word regardless of what other Black folk are doing.

The Buddy Love Show

06-22-2003, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
i only use it when i'm talkin about niggers

i hear black folk use the word everyday so we here on this board are of a group that is atypical - am i lying? No ... we here are some people that choose not to use the word regardless of what other Black folk are doing. [/QUOTE]and its all good...but shock and wonderment about the word and its usage from other blacks seems a tad disingenuous imo

i really don't think the we is all inclusive - just internet pc

And

06-22-2003, 07:20 PM

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
i only use it when i'm talkin about niggers

i hear black folk use the word everyday so we here on this board are of a group that is atypical - am i lying? No ... we here are some people that choose not to use the word regardless of what other Black folk are doing. [/QUOTE]and its all good...but shock and wonderment about the word and its usage from other blacks seems a tad disingenuous imo

i really don't think the we is all inclusive - just internet pc [/QUOTE]Thank you for clarifying.

surreal

06-22-2003, 08:51 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
some "blacks" find the term "American" offensive Why is that? How do you define American? For those that find the term "Amercian" offensive, are they not proud of the fact that in America they can actually say, American is offensive?

surreal

06-22-2003, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Do I walk away from all the value these unions hold simply because my understanding of the negative - even when the term is applied in the positive? I'm curious, can you please explain the positive value of the term?

surreal

06-22-2003, 09:01 PM

Originally posted by Doctor Love:

The "classic" use of this word is to discribe a sub-human who is ignorant slave.

Hence George W. Bush is the biggest nigger out there right now.

An ignorant sub-human slave.

Sorry, I thought that this was self-explanitory! graemlins/conf44.gif Nope, it wasn't self explanitory: I don't think of others as sub-human. But thanks for clarifying.

mhd

06-22-2003, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
some "blacks" find the term "American" offensive Why is that? How do you define American? For those that find the term "Amercian" offensive, are they not proud of the fact that in America they can actually say, American is offensive? [/QUOTE]Dubois wrote about this duality, you should check him out. Your last sentence is a reference to the First Amendment, freedom of speech, which has been an important tool in the fight to correct the many wrongs perpetuated in the name of "America".

surreal

06-22-2003, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by houseaddict:
Me sentiments exactly. I cannot stand to hear people using the word in anyway. I want to go up to people that I hear use and educate them about its origin and negative connotation. It makes no sense whatsoever to hear anyone referring to anyone/anything w/ that word in a positive inference.

With racist attitudes still exisiting throughout modern society, it strikes me funny to hear people's perception of this word having changed to such a degree that they actually refer to one another by it!! Its as if they thing that if they refer to one another as "nigga", it may be different that "nigger". Come on people!! ITs the same thing - STOP! Well said, houseaddict!

surreal

06-22-2003, 11:14 PM

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
and its all good...but shock and wonderment about the word and its usage from other blacks seems a tad disingenuous imo
Well, since it appears that I am the only one that has expressed any "shock and wonderment about the word and its usage," you should know that I am not black. I'm Chinese and Caucasian of French decent.

Bold Soul

06-22-2003, 11:20 PM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Do I walk away from all the value these unions hold simply because my understanding of the negative - even when the term is applied in the positive? I'm curious, can you please explain the positive value of the term? [/QUOTE]When someone refers to me as their "nigga" in an affectionate sense, it doesn't carry with it any implication of its negative use. It is simply a term of endearment. The same as when one old friend refers to another old friend as "You sonofabitch!", or when the lovemaking is real good and your lady says "OH, You MUTHAFUKA!".

When a friend from way back sees me for the first time in a while, screams "My Nigga!" and gives me a bear hug, honestly, I'm not thinking about the negative connotations of the word. Any other time, when confronted with the word as it is used in the derogatory, I do consider the negative ramifications.

For me, this is a paradox. Is it possible that NIGGER and NIGGA are now two different words in the American lexicon?

mhd

06-22-2003, 11:23 PM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
and its all good...but shock and wonderment about the word and its usage from other blacks seems a tad disingenuous imo
Well, since it appears that I am the only one that has expressed any "shock and wonderment about the word and its usage," you should know that I am not black. I'm Chinese and Caucasian of French decent. [/QUOTE]thanks for answering the question on my mind. to be sure, feeling and expressing are vastly different

surreal

06-23-2003, 12:04 AM

Originally posted by mhd:
[QUOTE]Dubois wrote about this duality, you should check him out. Your last sentence is a reference to the First Amendment, freedom of speech, which has been an important tool in the fight to correct the many wrongs perpetuated in the name of "America". Thanks for the suggested reading, mhd. I'll be sure to check out his work. smile.gif

surreal

06-23-2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by mhd:
to be sure, feeling and expressing are vastly different That's not completely true; an expression can be a vehicle that is used to convey a feeling. But, I'd rather not get too deep into semantics here or off topic. ;)

mhd

06-23-2003, 09:21 AM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
to be sure, feeling and expressing are vastly different That's not completely true; an expression can be a vehicle that is used to convey a feeling. But, I'd rather not get too deep into semantics here or off topic. ;) [/QUOTE]all i'm saying is that many people may feel something but won't say it here, for a whole lot of reasons

discofan

06-23-2003, 09:22 AM

One curious fact:
In my country/bulgaria/ the official world for black skined man is a "niger", whithout any bad feelings offcourse,every day you can listen on TV or read in the newspappers somethings like "..Nelson Mandela,one great man,the leader of South Afrika's nigers.."!!!!!or "the great M.L.King,this niger show to us how to fight for ..."
sorry if i hurt someone

Moksha

06-23-2003, 09:29 AM

Originally posted by mhd:
some "blacks" find the term "American" offensive Mark,

An interesting point this post brings up. What do you think about the terms "black," "African-American" and "negro?"

I have heard each constructed in positive and negative ways.

mhd

06-23-2003, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Orion:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by mhd:
some "blacks" find the term "American" offensive Mark,

An interesting point this post brings up. What do you think about the terms "black," "African-American" and "negro?"

I have heard each constructed in positive and negative ways. [/QUOTE]personally, i could care less, in my years of growing up and being involved in fist fights, race riots, getting kicked, spat upon, overcharged, ignored, followed, profiled, arrested or just plain rudeness, i'm more interested in equality of opportunity, i really don't even need a level playing field, just let me in the game and i will take care of the rest.
so the names are irrelevant,

D J 1 3 8

06-23-2003, 10:19 AM

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Is it possible that NIGGER and NIGGA are now two different words in the American lexicon? I don't think there's really any question about this. The word clearly has several uses.

Non-black folks use it as a derogatory term.

Many people (black folks, latinos, even whites)use it as an affectionate term.

Many black folks (like Buddy Love) use it as a derogatory term, but in a fairly specific context.

What's clear to me is that this word ain't going away anytime soon.

Koffy Brown

06-23-2003, 10:23 AM

Originally posted by DJ 138:

What's clear to me is that this word ain't going away anytime soon. too bad...

surreal

06-23-2003, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by mhd:
all i'm saying is that many people may feel something but won't say it here, for a whole lot of reasons Point understood. To everyone in this thread, feel free to state your true feelings if you'd like but were hesitant to do so: I appreciate your honesty, regardless of how controversial it may seem. As long as we're not degrading one another, I'm open to your opinions. smile.gif

surreal

06-23-2003, 01:59 PM

Originally posted by discofan:
One curious fact:
In my country/bulgaria/ the official world for black skined man is a "niger", whithout any bad feelings offcourse,every day you can listen on TV or read in the newspappers somethings like "..Nelson Mandela,one great man,the leader of South Afrika's nigers.."!!!!!or "the great M.L.King,this niger show to us how to fight for ..."
sorry if i hurt someone Interesting. How is "niger" pronounced in Bulgaria, i.e., nI-jer or nig-er?

surreal

06-23-2003, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by Orion:

An interesting point this post brings up. What do you think about the terms "black," "African-American" and "negro?"

I have heard each constructed in positive and negative ways. It's like the sweet and sour arguement: without the sour, there wouldn't be the sweet. "Blacks" didn't realize they were "black" until "Whites" made that skin color distinction. In which case, is the term "Black" really as neutral and culturally sensitive as we're socialized to belive?

mhd

06-23-2003, 02:09 PM

Moksha

06-23-2003, 02:31 PM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:

An interesting point this post brings up. What do you think about the terms "black," "African-American" and "negro?"

I have heard each constructed in positive and negative ways. It's like the sweet and sour arguement: without the sour, there wouldn't be the sweet. "Blacks" didn't realize they were "black" until "Whites" made that skin color distinction. In which case, is the term "Black" really as neutral and culturally sensitive as we're socialized to belive? [/QUOTE]"black" and "white" are terribly inaccurate words to describe skin tone, considering the multitude of shades humans come in. It's quite a shame that the all-encompassing word is used to reduce such variety into a color that describes nobody. Plus, the idea of black has a long literary history of being equated with bad. (Black Tuesday, black plague, etc.) On the other hand, the civil rights movement of the '60s made "black" something to be proud of, investing the word with a whole new set of meanings. (black pride, black and beautiful, etc.)

I've noticed that "black" is most often used on DHP, as it is in most of society. (I don't recall every seeing "African-American" here, which requires its own analysis). Although, in the US, a lot of non-black people seem to often hesitate and take on a look of guilt when using "black." That's quite contrary to some countries, where the term is thrown around without the hushed tones. I saw in Brazil, as I know is used in other coutries, the term "black music," which was used to classify hip-hop, R&B, soul, etc.

Anyway, while VERY different than the word this thread is discussing, I think that it is relevant to see how we relate to the words that are supposed to describe us. Does anybody (of any race) dislike the word "black" as used in this context? How about "African-American"? As a pretty antiquated term, "negro" seems to be a difficult one. . .ironically bringing to mind both the NAACP and N-word simulaneously. If any or all of these terms are disliked, what would be better? MHD's vote is in. For better or for worse, we seem to live in a world where these race distinctions are still very relevant. How do we pick the right words to do this?

surreal

06-23-2003, 03:05 PM

Originally posted by Orion:

Does anybody (of any race) dislike the word "black" as used in this context? How about "African-American"? As a pretty antiquated term, "negro" seems to be a difficult one. . .ironically bringing to mind both the NAACP and N-word simulaneously. If any or all of these terms are disliked, what would be better? MHD's vote is in. For better or for worse, we seem to live in a world where these race distinctions are still very relevant. How do we pick the right words to do this? I tend to use African-American, Anglo, or Caucasion when referring to people within these categories. I don't like the term Black nor White; but I must admit, with the historic conotation of the term "Black," I feel more comfortable using the term White more loosely rather than the other way around.

Moksha

06-23-2003, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Orion:

Does anybody (of any race) dislike the word "black" as used in this context? How about "African-American"? As a pretty antiquated term, "negro" seems to be a difficult one. . .ironically bringing to mind both the NAACP and N-word simulaneously. If any or all of these terms are disliked, what would be better? MHD's vote is in. For better or for worse, we seem to live in a world where these race distinctions are still very relevant. How do we pick the right words to do this? I tend to use African-American, Anglo, or Caucasion when referring to people within these categories. I don't like the term Black nor White; but I must admit, with the historic conotation of the term "Black," I feel more comfortable using the term White more loosely rather than the other way around. [/QUOTE]Interesting. . .

Of course, the terms you use are all quite problematic. Is a black Frenchman (or Carribean islander) an "African-American" if living here? Aren't we all "African"?

Caucasian refers to mountains in India: so are Indians Caucasians?Does this really describe those commonly refered to as caucasians?

Does "anglo" encompass all white Europeans? Even those who had no influence from the Anglo tribes (Greeks, for example)?

Does the political correctness of the terms you choose to use veil connotative meanings?

It's very interesting how complex language is when dealing with race. I use "black," "white," "Latino" and "Asian" for Americans, otherwise a person's country of origin. I'm not sure if they are the best choices, but they seem to be the easiest. I definitely understand why peeps might not like the terms I choose to use...but until something better comes along...

KragShot

06-23-2003, 03:47 PM

As a writer, I will use the word if I'm doing a work of historical or specifically ethnically focused fiction. The other time I would use the word is when I am involved in a socialogical discourse, like this one we are having now.

This spring, I took several courses regarding literature between 1830 through 1900. Of course, one of the seminal works of the period was "Adventures of Huckleberry Finn" by Mark Twain.

Even today, it was amazing to see all of the African American people who became angry and offended by Twain's use of the word, when I would hear them in another context use nigger constantly.

It's okay for Ja Rule or Jay-Z to use the word in every other line of a song or even in a title("Jigga My Nigga"). Now, I'm not as versed as many in hip-hop lore, but I can probably guess that Eminem has never used the word in one of his songs. I'm almost certain that the Beastie Boys haven't and neither did Third Bass.

Personally, I am offended by the double standard applied to the word nigger. I don't use it, I don't like for it to be used in my presence by anybody.

Nearly every African American person has experienced or knows of somebody who experienced a situation where they had their non-black friend (especially if they are white) refer to them as "my nigga" or "their nigga."

If you don't use the word and don't allow it to be used around you, your non-black friends will not be tempted or prompted to use it around you or in reference to you.

I try to be as racially neutral as possible...I'm still very far from my goal and the current climate of this country isn't helping.

We need to stop using that word. If a word isn't used, it falls out of usage. Until we consciously stop using it, it will remain with us.

KragShot

corwin

06-23-2003, 03:51 PM

I admit I've wrestled with use of The Word for a while. Though I'm not entirely against it, when used in ironic, sarcastic, or satiric terms, it can extend a point of view or---in the case of Sarah Jones or the Last Poets--- simply generate discourse. Yes, I've used "nigger" in the past and it has NEVER been a term of endearment(and if I claimed that the word didn't cross my mind every time I see Deon Sanders on the NFL Today, I'd be lying my black ass off). But I'd like to work the term out of our lexicon and consciousness. To me, it's difficult to think this word anything but a psychically-crippling perjorative term.

One of the things so striking about the "I'm jus'-tellin'-it-like-it-is-and-I-don't-give-a-fukk-about-who-I-offend" types on DHP is the implication that no else is capable of abstract thought.....well, at least those with a different perspective. Or worse, that people with p.c. sensibilities and self-esteem have no understanding of irony. There are people who don't use The Word that grew up with and still appreciate the confrotational style of Richard Pryor or Lenny Bruce or Sandra Bernhard or any artist that pushes the envelope. But because these artists are gifted and hilarous does not make them at times misguided, wrong-minded and deeply flawed. Provocation without progressive ideas does little for me.

Maybe I'm "too sensitive", but ever since my brother and I were showered with beer bottles and that congenial term "nigger" (...or "nigga" or whatever term is de rigeur with the libertarian mofos right now) in Florida many years ago, for some strange reason I still get chills when I hear that cute lil' term of endearment. Like I said, maybe I'm too sensitve.

But hell, my socialist leanings make me open minded. The day I witness a throng of college kids in yarmukles tossing the word "kike" around liberally, I might reintroduce "nigger" into my vocabulary.

D J 1 3 8

06-23-2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by corwin:
The day I witness a throng of college kids in yarmukles tossing the word "kike" around liberally, I might reintroduce "nigger" into my vocabulary. I have witnessed this. Just as you hear homosexuals calling each other faggot all the time. In fact, "Queer" has been re-appropriated to the extent that it's an accepted educational term (like "queer theory" in architecture, for example). Many different groups reclaim words that have originated as insults. Black folks are not alone in this. I'm curious if those other groups are as equally divided on the subject. Hmmmm. My guess would be YES.

corwin

06-23-2003, 04:01 PM

BTW, to all non-black people who think the word "nigga" is cute and REALLY want a challenge, I suggest you find copies of Paul Mooney's "Race" and "Masterpiece" (if they are still available). You may never use it again.

Moksha

06-23-2003, 04:04 PM

Originally posted by corwin:
I admit I've wrestled with use of The Word for a while. Though I'm not entirely against it, when used in ironic, sarcastic, or satiric terms, it can extend a point of view or---in the case of Sarah Jones or the Last Poets--- simply generate discourse. Yes, I've used "nigger" in the past and it has NEVER been a term of endearment(and if I claimed that the word didn't cross my mind every time I see Deon Sanders on the NFL Today, I'd be lying my black ass off). But I'd like to work the term out of our lexicon and consciousness. To me, it's difficult to think this word anything but a psychically-crippling perjorative term.

One of the things so striking about the "I'm jus'-tellin'-it-like-it-is-and-I-don't-give-a-fukk-about-who-I-offend" types on DHP is the implication that no else is capable of abstract thought.....well, at least those with a different perspective. Or worse, that people with p.c. sensibilities and self-esteem have no understanding of irony. There are people who don't use The Word that grew up with and still appreciate the confrotational style of Richard Pryor or Lenny Bruce or Sandra Bernhard or any artist that pushes the envelope. But because these artists are gifted and hilarous does not make them at times misguided, wrong-minded and deeply flawed. Provocation without progressive ideas does little for me.

Maybe I'm "too sensitive", but ever since my brother and I were showered with beer bottles and that congenial term "nigger" (...or "nigga" or whatever term is de rigeur with the libertarian mofos right now) in Florida many years ago, for some strange reason I still get chills when I hear that cute lil' term of endearment. Like I said, maybe I'm too sensitve.

But hell, my socialist leanings make me open minded. The day I witness a throng of college kids in yarmukles tossing the word "kike" around liberally, I might reintroduce "nigger" into my vocabulary. Great post!!

So, in your opinion, does Buddy's use of the word qualify as offensive, or as a literary device?

D J 1 3 8

06-23-2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by corwin:
BTW, to all non-black people who think the word "nigga" is cute and REALLY want a challenge, I suggest you find copies of Paul Mooney's "Race" and "Masterpiece" (if they are still available). You may never use it again. Sheeeeit. Paul Mooney uses the word more than anyone I know.

He can be hilarious and deep at the same time, though the last timne I saw him live he was STILL telling his OJ jokes, which are played the fucc out.

corwin

06-23-2003, 05:10 PM

Orion....I'm more offended by the patronize tone of the post than use of the word nigger. In this case, "nigger graduation ceremony" seemed nothing more than a rhethorical transgression used to provoke the reader. I love satire but hate it when it's so predictable. That he employed such New York Post/Fox News/Howard Stern-style tactics was unfortunate because it could have been a intelligent discussion about disillusioned kids and the sorry state of NYC public schools. Shock, as seen on the DHP, is soooo passe.
That's too bad because Buddy/Magus/Mark, clearly a critical thinker, seems too smart to resort to dumbed-down "peanuts in my shit" speak.

surreal

06-23-2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Orion:
Interesting. . .

Of course, the terms you use are all quite problematic. Is a black Frenchman (or Carribean islander) an "African-American" if living here? Aren't we all "African"?

Caucasian refers to mountains in India: so are Indians Caucasians?Does this really describe those commonly refered to as caucasians?

Does "anglo" encompass all white Europeans? Even those who had no influence from the Anglo tribes (Greeks, for example)?

Does the political correctness of the terms you choose to use veil connotative meanings?

It's very interesting how complex language is when dealing with race. I use "black," "white," "Latino" and "Asian" for Americans, otherwise a person's country of origin. I'm not sure if they are the best choices, but they seem to be the easiest. I definitely understand why peeps might not like the terms I choose to use...but until something better comes along... Yes, you have a point, and I didn't mean to circumscribe the vast descriptions that exist, but I'll address people as they are, first and foremost, a person. Subsequently, if the question arises, I'll say "so and so, from [Country of origin], etc etc."

Caucasian holds a dual definition: one of which you described, the other, my use of the word. Anglo, a term less used, but in the same context.

For the terms I've chosen, I don't know if the superficial appearance veils connotative meanings, but I have yet to be challenged by its use. Naturally, if I were to encounter such a scenario, I would easily open my mind to possible alternatives. But like you said, " until something better comes along..."

surreal

06-23-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by corwin:

But hell, my socialist leanings make me open minded. The day I witness a throng of college kids in yarmukles tossing the word "kike" around liberally, I might reintroduce "nigger" into my vocabulary. Kike -- now that's a new one. I've never heard that term before. Sounds like a new thread to me. ;)

surreal

06-23-2003, 06:19 PM

corwin, KragShot -- thanks for the great responses.

Bold Soul

06-23-2003, 06:20 PM

I know some people who object when one doesn't use the term "nigga". What does that make them?

corwin

06-23-2003, 06:58 PM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by corwin:

But hell, my socialist leanings make me open minded. The day I witness a throng of college kids in yarmukles tossing the word "kike" around liberally, I might reintroduce "nigger" into my vocabulary. Kike -- now that's a new one. I've never heard that term before. Sounds like a new thread to me. ;) [/QUOTE]Go ahead and start one. I dare ya. I bet you'll go from Member to Superstar Member in the same thread.

surreal

06-23-2003, 07:58 PM

Originally posted by corwin:
Go ahead and start one. I dare ya. I bet you'll go from Member to Superstar Member in the same thread. I highly doubt that. I wonder how many on this board actually use this word as often as the one in question...

[ June 23, 2003, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: surreal ]

The Buddy Love Show

06-23-2003, 08:34 PM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
and its all good...but shock and wonderment about the word and its usage from other blacks seems a tad disingenuous imo
Well, since it appears that I am the only one that has expressed any "shock and wonderment about the word and its usage," you should know that I am not black. I'm Chinese and Caucasian of French decent. [/QUOTE]you give yourself too much credit...either that or ya haven't read the other "nigger" threads

The Buddy Love Show

06-23-2003, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by corwin:
Orion....I'm more offended by the patronize tone of the post than use of the word nigger. In this case, "nigger graduation ceremony" seemed nothing more than a rhethorical transgression used to provoke the reader. I love satire but hate it when it's so predictable. That he employed such New York Post/Fox News/Howard Stern-style tactics was unfortunate because it could have been a intelligent discussion about disillusioned kids and the sorry state of NYC public schools. Shock, as seen on the DHP, is soooo passe.
That's too bad because Buddy/Magus/Mark, clearly a critical thinker, seems too smart to resort to dumbed-down "peanuts in my shit" speak. this might seem condescending but aint you the one who was victimized cause your BROTHER is black?...i feel your pain cause i've been victimized cause I was black..chased, arrested beat up denied employment, afeard of (i'm sure you can identify with women grabbing their purses or peeps locking their car doors when you approach...or been the smartest motha ****a in the classroom yet have peeps think you're there on account of some "program")

as Steve Martin said "I am a nigger", and i know niggers and i hear niggers call each other nigger and i've heard blacks call blacks nigger and i've heard ethnos calll similiar ethnos nigger

its funny about language ( now i leave on a tangent), as the french realize to their dismay, its not static but evolving

i would rather hear a freind call me nigger than hearTrent Lott call me "people" - as in those people, as in those niggers, as in those ****in black savages who wanna sleep with our women and tke our jobs and live on the dole and who should rightly be reduced back to subservience

unnerstaannnnn

The Buddy Love Show

06-23-2003, 09:14 PM

Originally posted by corwin:
.
That's too bad because Buddy/Magus/Mark, clearly a critical thinker, seems too smart to resort to dumbed-down "peanuts in my shit" speak. Bustamante v Manley (i think)

Manley "It is to our detriment as people to not propel the excavation of bauxite to new levels of increased production in order to spur the various economic indices to providential heights"

Bustamante: " Dig the bloodclaat boxite and every body a fi fed ta raatid"

Bustamante in a landslide

The Buddy Love Show

06-23-2003, 09:17 PM

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by corwin:
.
That's too bad because Buddy/Magus/Mark, clearly a critical thinker, seems too smart to resort to dumbed-down "peanuts in my shit" speak. Bustamante v Manley (i think)

Manley "It is to our detriment as people to not propel the excavation of bauxite to new levels of increased production in order to spur the various economic indices to providential heights"

Bustamante: " Dig the bloodclaat boxite and every body a fi fed ta raatid"

Bustamante in a landslide [/QUOTE]and to paraphrase PT Barnum " Noone ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the public"

Cruel but true

this way to the world famous egress

DOTSmusic

06-23-2003, 10:13 PM

i'm not black, but 99.9999....% of the black people i know refer to me as their nigga.

they say stuff like

ahhh shit, look at this nigga beatin that shit.

damn nigga, why you trippin?

yo, thats my nigga aKiLa up on the decks right now.

yo, waddup my nigga.

that's my mother****in nigga right there.

and so on.

i really don't have a point to this but i just
thought i'd let y'all know.

graemlins/beerchug.gif

surreal

06-23-2003, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by aKiLa:
i'm not black, but 99.9999....% of the black people i know refer to me as their nigga.

they say stuff like

ahhh shit, look at this nigga beatin that shit.

damn nigga, why you trippin?

yo, thats my nigga aKiLa up on the decks right now.

yo, waddup my nigga.

that's my mother****in nigga right there.

and so on.

i really don't have a point to this but i just
thought i'd let y'all know.

graemlins/beerchug.gif Hey aKiLa! Do you still plan on visiting L.A.??

discofan

06-24-2003, 02:02 AM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by discofan:
One curious fact:
In my country/bulgaria/ the official world for black skined man is a "niger", whithout any bad feelings offcourse,every day you can listen on TV or read in the newspappers somethings like "..Nelson Mandela,one great man,the leader of South Afrika's nigers.."!!!!!or "the great M.L.King,this niger show to us how to fight for ..."
sorry if i hurt someone Interesting. How is "niger" pronounced in Bulgaria, i.e., nI-jer or nig-er? [/QUOTE]most close to the second,something like [ne-gar],this situation is a result of isolation of my country from another world behind the iron curtain.

corwin

06-24-2003, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by corwin:
Orion....I'm more offended by the patronize tone of the post than use of the word nigger. In this case, "nigger graduation ceremony" seemed nothing more than a rhethorical transgression used to provoke the reader. I love satire but hate it when it's so predictable. That he employed such New York Post/Fox News/Howard Stern-style tactics was unfortunate because it could have been a intelligent discussion about disillusioned kids and the sorry state of NYC public schools. Shock, as seen on the DHP, is soooo passe.
That's too bad because Buddy/Magus/Mark, clearly a critical thinker, seems too smart to resort to dumbed-down "peanuts in my shit" speak. this might seem condescending but aint you the one who was victimized cause your BROTHER is black?...i feel your pain cause i've been victimized cause I was black..chased, arrested beat up denied employment, afeard of (i'm sure you can identify with women grabbing their purses or peeps locking their car doors when you approach...or been the smartest motha ****a in the classroom yet have peeps think you're there on account of some "program")

as Steve Martin said "I am a nigger", and i know niggers and i hear niggers call each other nigger and i've heard blacks call blacks nigger and i've heard ethnos calll similiar ethnos nigger

its funny about language ( now i leave on a tangent), as the french realize to their dismay, its not static but evolving

i would rather hear a freind call me nigger than hearTrent Lott call me "people" - as in those people, as in those niggers, as in those ****in black savages who wanna sleep with our women and tke our jobs and live on the dole and who should rightly be reduced back to subservience

unnerstaannnnn [/QUOTE]Buddy....I do unnerstaannnn. I can surely can identify with constantly being targeted and scapegoated especially when one grows up, steps away from the margins, and acquires goals and aspirations. Yes, it did hurt when all through college I was asked---presumably because I'm tall and dark---if I was there to play ball when I came to throw down in the classroom. It seems that what it means to be a black man, in America at least, is very narrowly defined.

And I felt the pain and frustration in your post regarding the bleak future of those kids at that ceremony. The feeling of sadness wasn't lost in your narrative. I understand your point-of-view. You made many salient points. Like you, I felt for those kids. But I also felt for that small subjugated group of folks whose lives were so out of control that they turned the most important day of their children's lives into something nothing less than farcical.

While I've worked very hard for everything I've achieved, IMO the biggest difference between me those folks acting a fool at that ceremony is merely matter of luck. I was lucky to come from a stable home. I was lucky to come through a school system that valued teachers and students. I was lucky to have grown up in a safe liberal community where I was taught that anything was within reach. Who knows how my life would have turned out had I grown up in a housing project or an unstable home, or was forced to navigate the labyrinth that we call NYC schools?

While "Nigger" may seem innocuous to some, I'm convinced once it finds it's place one's self-conscious, it weighs heavily on one's psyche. People like you, black folks who have walked that slippery slope, learned to swim against the current, deconstructed the art of finesse and know how to play the game are in a perfect position change the lifes of those still struggling.
.

[ June 24, 2003, 09:11 AM: Message edited by: corwin ]

DOTSmusic

06-24-2003, 08:30 AM

Originally posted by surreal:
Hey aKiLa! Do you still plan on visiting L.A.?? yes of course.
i just had to switch my tickets to another date
for reasons beyond my control.
so yeah, i'll be there the 2nd week of august.
graemlins/beerchug.gif

[ June 24, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: aKiLa ]

Ken1015

06-24-2003, 08:52 AM

imported_Chr_stopher

06-24-2003, 09:00 AM

i dont.

c-

The Buddy Love Show

06-24-2003, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by corwin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by corwin:
Orion....I'm more offended by the patronize tone of the post than use of the word nigger. In this case, "nigger graduation ceremony" seemed nothing more than a rhethorical transgression used to provoke the reader. I love satire but hate it when it's so predictable. That he employed such New York Post/Fox News/Howard Stern-style tactics was unfortunate because it could have been a intelligent discussion about disillusioned kids and the sorry state of NYC public schools. Shock, as seen on the DHP, is soooo passe.
That's too bad because Buddy/Magus/Mark, clearly a critical thinker, seems too smart to resort to dumbed-down "peanuts in my shit" speak. this might seem condescending but aint you the one who was victimized cause your BROTHER is black?...i feel your pain cause i've been victimized cause I was black..chased, arrested beat up denied employment, afeard of (i'm sure you can identify with women grabbing their purses or peeps locking their car doors when you approach...or been the smartest motha ****a in the classroom yet have peeps think you're there on account of some "program")

as Steve Martin said "I am a nigger", and i know niggers and i hear niggers call each other nigger and i've heard blacks call blacks nigger and i've heard ethnos calll similiar ethnos nigger

its funny about language ( now i leave on a tangent), as the french realize to their dismay, its not static but evolving

i would rather hear a freind call me nigger than hearTrent Lott call me "people" - as in those people, as in those niggers, as in those ****in black savages who wanna sleep with our women and tke our jobs and live on the dole and who should rightly be reduced back to subservience

unnerstaannnnn [/QUOTE]Buddy....I do unnerstaannnn. I can surely can identify with constantly being targeted and scapegoated especially when one grows up, steps away from the margins, and acquires goals and aspirations. Yes, it did hurt when all through college I was asked---presumably because I'm tall and dark---if I was there to play ball when I came to throw down in the classroom. It seems that what it means to be a black man, in America at least, is very narrowly defined.

And I felt the pain and frustration in your post regarding the bleak future of those kids at that ceremony. The feeling of sadness wasn't lost in your narrative. I understand your point-of-view. You made many salient points. Like you, I felt for those kids. But I also felt for that small subjugated group of folks whose lives were so out of control that they turned the most important day of their children's lives into something nothing less than farcical.

While I've worked very hard for everything I've achieved, IMO the biggest difference between me those folks acting a fool at that ceremony is merely matter of luck. I was lucky to come from a stable home. I was lucky to come through a school system that valued teachers and students. I was lucky to have grown up in a safe liberal community where I was taught that anything was within reach. Who knows how my life would have turned out had I grown up in a housing project or an unstable home, or was forced to navigate the labyrinth that we call NYC schools?

While "Nigger" may seem innocuous to some, I'm convinced once it finds it's place one's self-conscious, it weighs heavily on one's psyche. People like you, black folks who have walked that slippery slope, learned to swim against the current, deconstructed the art of finesse and know how to play the game are in a perfect position change the lifes of those still struggling.
. [/QUOTE]a reasonable response

and shit i don't wanna impugn your pain or character

this is a complicated social/semantic/economic issue that is agonized over everyday by many people

peace

Wild i

06-24-2003, 09:31 AM

Originally posted by corwin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
Buddy....I do unnerstaannnn. I can surely can identify with constantly being targeted and scapegoated especially when one grows up, steps away from the margins, and acquires goals and aspirations. Yes, it did hurt when all through college I was asked---presumably because I'm tall and dark---if I was there to play ball when I came to throw down in the classroom. It seems that what it means to be a black man, in America at least, is very narrowly defined.

And I felt the pain and frustration in your post regarding the bleak future of those kids at that ceremony. The feeling of sadness wasn't lost in your narrative. I understand your point-of-view. You made many salient points. Like you, I felt for those kids. But I also felt for that small subjugated group of folks whose lives were so out of control that they turned the most important day of their children's lives into something nothing less than farcical.

While I've worked very hard for everything I've achieved, IMO the biggest difference between me those folks acting a fool at that ceremony is merely matter of luck. I was lucky to come from a stable home. I was lucky to come through a school system that valued teachers and students. I was lucky to have grown up in a safe liberal community where I was taught that anything was within reach. Who knows how my life would have turned out had I grown up in a housing project or an unstable home, or was forced to navigate the labyrinth that we call NYC schools?

While "Nigger" may seem innocuous to some, I'm convinced once it finds it's place one's self-conscious, it weighs heavily on one's psyche. People like you, black folks who have walked that slippery slope, learned to swim against the current, deconstructed the art of finesse and know how to play the game are in a perfect position change the lifes of those still struggling.
. [/QUOTE]Very eloquently put. I especially like, "While "Nigger" may seem innocuous to some, I'm convinced once it finds it's place one's self-conscious, it weighs heavily on one's psyche."

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make.

Red D

06-24-2003, 09:35 AM

Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by corwin:
The day I witness a throng of college kids in yarmukles tossing the word "kike" around liberally, I might reintroduce "nigger" into my vocabulary. I have witnessed this. Just as you hear homosexuals calling each other faggot all the time. In fact, "Queer" has been re-appropriated to the extent that it's an accepted educational term (like "queer theory" in architecture, for example). Many different groups reclaim words that have originated as insults. Black folks are not alone in this. I'm curious if those other groups are as equally divided on the subject. Hmmmm. My guess would be YES. [/QUOTE]Mucho credit to Julian! As a bit of a linguist I was just about to make the same remark, throughout history terms that were originally meant as an insult have been adopted by the insulted and changed into a term of identification and eventually a term to be proud of. This is the case for people living in a city, people who fought a revolution, a war, people from the same tribe, race, etc.
You cannot stop language and the term 'nigga' is in the process of losing its derogatory meaning through it being used excessively in music and movies. As some people said in this thread it all depends on the situation, when a black friend calls me his 'main white boy' that is nothing but affection, whereas 'whitey' immediately has an offensive nature.
I love language, maybe some people don't, use it or don't, but check the larger picture.

RD

mhd

06-24-2003, 09:39 AM

Originally posted by Wild i:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by corwin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
Buddy....I do unnerstaannnn. I can surely can identify with constantly being targeted and scapegoated especially when one grows up, steps away from the margins, and acquires goals and aspirations. Yes, it did hurt when all through college I was asked---presumably because I'm tall and dark---if I was there to play ball when I came to throw down in the classroom. It seems that what it means to be a black man, in America at least, is very narrowly defined.

And I felt the pain and frustration in your post regarding the bleak future of those kids at that ceremony. The feeling of sadness wasn't lost in your narrative. I understand your point-of-view. You made many salient points. Like you, I felt for those kids. But I also felt for that small subjugated group of folks whose lives were so out of control that they turned the most important day of their children's lives into something nothing less than farcical.

While I've worked very hard for everything I've achieved, IMO the biggest difference between me those folks acting a fool at that ceremony is merely matter of luck. I was lucky to come from a stable home. I was lucky to come through a school system that valued teachers and students. I was lucky to have grown up in a safe liberal community where I was taught that anything was within reach. Who knows how my life would have turned out had I grown up in a housing project or an unstable home, or was forced to navigate the labyrinth that we call NYC schools?

While "Nigger" may seem innocuous to some, I'm convinced once it finds it's place one's self-conscious, it weighs heavily on one's psyche. People like you, black folks who have walked that slippery slope, learned to swim against the current, deconstructed the art of finesse and know how to play the game are in a perfect position change the lifes of those still struggling.
. [/QUOTE]Very eloquently put. I especially like, "While "Nigger" may seem innocuous to some, I'm convinced once it finds it's place one's self-conscious, it weighs heavily on one's psyche."

This is exactly the point I have been trying to make. [/QUOTE]Great point but: "once it finds it's place one's self-conscious" when has it not been in our collective self-conscious?

Wild i

06-24-2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by Red D:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by corwin:
The day I witness a throng of college kids in yarmukles tossing the word "kike" around liberally, I might reintroduce "nigger" into my vocabulary. I have witnessed this. Just as you hear homosexuals calling each other faggot all the time. In fact, "Queer" has been re-appropriated to the extent that it's an accepted educational term (like "queer theory" in architecture, for example). Many different groups reclaim words that have originated as insults. Black folks are not alone in this. I'm curious if those other groups are as equally divided on the subject. Hmmmm. My guess would be YES. [/QUOTE]RD [/QUOTE]Sorry I miss this post originally. There is a major difference here, especially in your example of "queer theory." (That's not a term with which I am familiar, by the way.) The word "queer," "fag," "wop," "guinnea," and possibly even "kike" all had real meanings beyond the derrogatory slur with which they have become associated. Not so "nigger." Yes, it is a bastardization of a foreign word, but it has never had a positive connotation in English... EVER. I know that language is fluid and robust, but I remain unconvinced of the viability of "nigger" as an agreeable reference to people of color.

corwin

06-24-2003, 04:14 PM

corwin

06-24-2003, 04:18 PM

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by corwin:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by corwin:
Orion....I'm more offended by the patronize tone of the post than use of the word nigger. In this case, "nigger graduation ceremony" seemed nothing more than a rhethorical transgression used to provoke the reader. I love satire but hate it when it's so predictable. That he employed such New York Post/Fox News/Howard Stern-style tactics was unfortunate because it could have been a intelligent discussion about disillusioned kids and the sorry state of NYC public schools. Shock, as seen on the DHP, is soooo passe.
That's too bad because Buddy/Magus/Mark, clearly a critical thinker, seems too smart to resort to dumbed-down "peanuts in my shit" speak. this might seem condescending but aint you the one who was victimized cause your BROTHER is black?...i feel your pain cause i've been victimized cause I was black..chased, arrested beat up denied employment, afeard of (i'm sure you can identify with women grabbing their purses or peeps locking their car doors when you approach...or been the smartest motha ****a in the classroom yet have peeps think you're there on account of some "program")

as Steve Martin said "I am a nigger", and i know niggers and i hear niggers call each other nigger and i've heard blacks call blacks nigger and i've heard ethnos calll similiar ethnos nigger

its funny about language ( now i leave on a tangent), as the french realize to their dismay, its not static but evolving

i would rather hear a freind call me nigger than hearTrent Lott call me "people" - as in those people, as in those niggers, as in those ****in black savages who wanna sleep with our women and tke our jobs and live on the dole and who should rightly be reduced back to subservience

unnerstaannnnn [/QUOTE]Buddy....I do unnerstaannnn. I can surely can identify with constantly being targeted and scapegoated especially when one grows up, steps away from the margins, and acquires goals and aspirations. Yes, it did hurt when all through college I was asked---presumably because I'm tall and dark---if I was there to play ball when I came to throw down in the classroom. It seems that what it means to be a black man, in America at least, is very narrowly defined.

And I felt the pain and frustration in your post regarding the bleak future of those kids at that ceremony. The feeling of sadness wasn't lost in your narrative. I understand your point-of-view. You made many salient points. Like you, I felt for those kids. But I also felt for that small subjugated group of folks whose lives were so out of control that they turned the most important day of their children's lives into something nothing less than farcical.

While I've worked very hard for everything I've achieved, IMO the biggest difference between me those folks acting a fool at that ceremony is merely matter of luck. I was lucky to come from a stable home. I was lucky to come through a school system that valued teachers and students. I was lucky to have grown up in a safe liberal community where I was taught that anything was within reach. Who knows how my life would have turned out had I grown up in a housing project or an unstable home, or was forced to navigate the labyrinth that we call NYC schools?

While "Nigger" may seem innocuous to some, I'm convinced once it finds it's place one's self-conscious, it weighs heavily on one's psyche. People like you, black folks who have walked that slippery slope, learned to swim against the current, deconstructed the art of finesse and know how to play the game are in a perfect position change the lifes of those still struggling.
. [/QUOTE]a reasonable response

and shit i don't wanna impugn your pain or character

this is a complicated social/semantic/economic issue that is agonized over everyday by many people

peace [/QUOTE]all is good, poppa. keep givin' em, shit. ;)

surreal

06-25-2003, 12:03 AM

Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
you give yourself too much credit...either that or ya haven't read the other "nigger" threads I haven't read the other threads.

surreal

06-25-2003, 12:08 AM

Originally posted by aKiLa:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by surreal:
Hey aKiLa! Do you still plan on visiting L.A.?? yes of course.
i just had to switch my tickets to another date
for reasons beyond my control.
so yeah, i'll be there the 2nd week of august.
graemlins/beerchug.gif [/QUOTE]Great! Hopefully you'll still come out for a drink, perhaps at Heaven! I'll be back in Pgh by the 23rd of Aug. :(

SHEIK YERBOUTI

06-25-2003, 08:35 AM

Originally posted by surreal:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by aKiLa:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by surreal:
Hey aKiLa! Do you still plan on visiting L.A.?? yes of course.
i just had to switch my tickets to another date
for reasons beyond my control.
so yeah, i'll be there the 2nd week of august.
graemlins/beerchug.gif [/QUOTE]Great! Hopefully you'll still come out for a drink, perhaps at Heaven! I'll be back in Pgh by the 23rd of Aug. :( [/QUOTE]Hey! What's wrong w/being back in PGH? Okay, I'll let that one go, but think of it this way. You'll be back among the PGH house massive! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Well actually, since there are about 6-8 of us, you could actually call it the house minimal... ;)

Wild i

06-25-2003, 09:29 AM

I have a question for those who argue that the word "nigger" has become accepted through usage. Would you say the same of the work "ho" (as in whore)? Young folks use it all the time. Would you want your daughter, wife or mother called that? After all, language is fluid and by owning the word we take the sting out of it, blah, blah, blah. I pity the fool who calls me a bitch or a "ho." Some young buck tried that with my skinny-ass best friend and she just about clocked him. Next time he say her he called her "Miss."

The Buddy Love Show

06-25-2003, 09:38 AM

Originally posted by Wild i:
I have a question for those who argue that the word "nigger" has become accepted through usage. Would you say the same of the work "ho" (as in whore)? Young folks use it all the time. Would you want your daughter, wife or mother called that? After all, language is fluid and by owning the word we take the sting out of it, blah, blah, blah. I pity the fool who calls me a bitch or a "ho." Some young buck tried that with my skinny-ass best friend and she just about clocked him. Next time he say her he called her "Miss." i refer to many bitches as hoes except when i want to get down then i call them baby....guys call women bitches or hoes right up til they become their shorties or girlfeinds....

but seriously i don't think the case is similiar....women usually do mind being called ho or bitch or skank or cunt. - and usually don't refer to other women in those terms..blacks call each other nigger all the time and don't mind at all...