View Full Version : Women vs Men regarding Higher Education
Leslie
06-11-2003, 09:36 AM
This article really hit home for me on various levels....its very telling for the future....
GENDER GAP
Higher-learning women
Men falling further behind in college attendance
By Andrea Coombes, CBS.MarketWatch.com
Last Update: 12:02 AM ET June 11, 2003
SAN FRANCISCO (CBS.MW) - A growing number of women are attending U.S. colleges compared with men, with the gender gap most pronounced among African-Americans, a new study shows.
Overall, 128 women enrolled in colleges nationwide for every 100 men in 2000, up from 123 women in 1993.
That means 1.87 million more women than men attended college in 2000, according to a study by Northeastern University's Center for Labor Market Studies commissioned by The Business Roundtable, an association of corporate chief executives.
That gap is expected to widen to 138 women per 100 men in 2010, the report found, based on U.S. Dept. of Education projections.
"It's fantastic for women," said Susan Traiman, director of the Education Initiative at The Business Roundtable.
"We certainly don't want to close this gap by reducing the number of women going into higher education, but the data does show a serious problem in terms of men's attendance," she said, noting that the results reflect women's increased attendance and a decline in men's.
Among African-American college students, the gap is even greater, with 166 women attending college for every 100 men. Among Hispanics, it's 130 women and among whites, 126 women.
"It's particularly concerning to see the differential among African Americans," said Barbara Gault, director of research at the Institute for Women's Policy Research. This differential "tells us we need to pay attention to how we can improve opportunities for African American men."
The disparity between men and women overall starts long before college, in elementary school classrooms, Traiman said. "You see the roots of it as boys move through" earlier school grades, she said, noting that boys have lower test scores and drop out of high school at higher rates than women.
"Fewer go on to higher education, and fewer graduate once they do enter, so the gap continues to grow," she said.
Even for women, not entirely a rosy picture
Part of the reason for the differential may be the workforce wage gap, some say. "Consistently, the data will show that a woman needs a college degree to earn what the average man with a high school degree can earn," she said, noting that there are more higher-paying jobs available in traditionally male occupations, for example the skilled trades, than there are for women.
"Women may not be getting as much out of education as men do. It may be a way that women compensate for the gender wage gap that is pervasive throughout the labor market," Gault said.
Women more likely to finish college
Women are completing college at higher rates than men, with that gap between women and men even wider than the gap in college attendance.
Women received 151 associate degrees, 133 bachelor's degrees and 138 master's degree for every 100 of each type awarded to men.
The degree-attainment gap is expected to widen, with women receiving 173 associate's degrees and 142 bachelor's degrees for every 100 of each earned by men.
The gap in degree-attainment was steepest among African-American women, with 192 women earning bachelor's degrees to every 100 African-American men earning such degrees.
Among Asian women, 117 earned bachelor's degrees per every 100 men, and 131 white women did so.
Women lag men in professional, doctoral degrees
The one area where women continue to lag behind men is in obtaining professional and doctorate degrees.
Eighty-one women per 100 men obtained professional degrees in 2000, and that number is projected to reach 97 by 2010. In 1977, only 23 women per 100 men reached that level.
Seventy-nine women per 100 men earned doctoral degrees in 2000, up from 32 women in 1977.
Andrea Coombes is a reporter for CBS.MarketWatch.com in San Francisco.
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very interesting. i think it would be very interesting to see an extensive study on professionals in about 5 years comparing women v men in numbers, salaries, and promotions. that would be really revealing of the gender biases.
Leslie
06-11-2003, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by JL:
very interesting. i think it would be very interesting to see an extensive study on professionals in about 5 years comparing women v men in numbers, salaries, and promotions. that would be really revealing of the gender biases. I wonder how it will all bear out - given that less men are going to college and positions will need to be filled. I would like to see the numbers on a study as far a mentoring and grooming goes for mid and upper level management positions with less men going to college, are men mentoring women to take over, etc...
Bill Blake
06-11-2003, 10:05 AM
Educated women are so hot
Leslie
06-11-2003, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Educated women are so hot Thank you for screwing up the topic at hand...
formerly known as kenspank
06-11-2003, 10:50 AM
so much of young man's identity is based on whether he has certain things....like a job. often young men pursue jobs that require less years of training and pay relatively high wages (ie selling drugs).
this can be a trap. in some other communities, education for its own sake is more of a priority than having a "good job". so its no wonder that other communities have more young people with graduate degrees.
also, women tend to have more sources of support than men while off at college. people with more support streams tend to be more successful i think.
when i started college, most of the men i knew, including myself, didn't get any care packages from home, no extra spending money from aunt so-and-so, they weren't on any scholarships, and daddy wasn't pay for their care note, car insurance, and school tuition. however, the women i knew had quite a few of those things.
my wife's father paid for her college education. my family insisted i figure it out on my own. she's in the midst of her career and i'm still trying to develop mine. i'm not complaining, but if i had a little help, things might have gone a bit faster. meanwhile, i'm plugging along at my own pace.
most young men, just give up and drop out.
Cheddar
06-11-2003, 10:53 AM
Hey, maybe we can use this study to persuade more fellas into going to school....
Where the ladies @???
Leslie
06-11-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by kenspank:
when i started college, most of the men i knew, including myself, didn't get any care packages from home, no extra spending money from aunt so-and-so, they weren't on any scholarships, and daddy wasn't pay for their care note, car insurance, and school tuition. however, the women i knew had quite a few of those things.
my wife's father paid for her college education. my family insisted i figure it out on my own. she's in the midst of her career and i'm still trying to develop mine. i'm not complaining, but if i had a little help, things might have gone a bit faster. meanwhile, i'm plugging along at my own pace.
most young men, just give up and drop out. So much of this is true, a support system is essential. I too was extremely lucky (both my sister and I) when it came to the subject of college, first of all there was no discussion - my parents went, we were going. Secondly we were blessed in that they were able to afford to pay for us to go and the most we had to do was buy our books and provide our own spending money - which was fair enough. We had graduation parties after both high school and college where we both got a ton of money from family and friends who watched us grow up - SUPPORT is ESSENTIAL.
Leslie
06-11-2003, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by 1343:
Hey, maybe we can use this study to persuade more fellas into going to school....
Where the ladies @??? Yea and persuade them to fight hard and finish when they do get there.....
Bill Blake
06-11-2003, 11:12 AM
I want to see the gender make up based on degree type.
Also remember,
Less than 20% of Americans have a college degree.
An undergraduate degree very much designates one as part of an educated elite. I get fumed when I hear people talk about how an undergrad degree doesnt mean anything anymore....****ing idiot for thinking such a thing.
I wonder if it's possible to study the psychological factors at play regarding men, career choices, and educational goals. I think traditionally, men may have a different view of what they're goals and responsibilities are - this may come from family and cultural pressures as well. Probably very hard to conduct this sort of study in a meaningful manner.
The Donger
06-11-2003, 11:24 AM
What legal steps can we take to keep women down?
Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
I want to see the gender make up based on degree type.
Also remember,
Less than 20% of Americans have a college degree.
An undergraduate degree very much designates one as part of an educated elite. I get fumed when I hear people talk about how an undergrad degree doesnt mean anything anymore....****ing idiot for thinking such a thing. IMO, a lot has to do with your family.. ie.. what was the highest level of schooling you parents recieved? What kind of a job they hold? Because then your parents will push you to achieve better.
That is why when you have a parent that is a doctor, most likely that is what you child would want... And not getting a degree is NOT an option.
If you parent didn't even attend college then they will want you at least to do this.... So that you may have a better job than they did..
Its all about stepping stone...
Koffy Brown
06-11-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by JL:
I wonder if it's possible to study the psychological factors at play regarding men, career choices, and educational goals. I think traditionally, men may have a different view of what they're goals and responsibilities are - this may come from family and cultural pressures as well. Probably very hard to conduct this sort of study in a meaningful manner. of course there are psychological factors that are at play when choosing a career, especially for African American men...
how many young brothers do you know that by age of 16 they are expected to contribute to the household income?
how many young brothers do you know, who are encouraged to work moreso than get a post secondary education?
how many young brothers do you know who are already apart of the justice system by the time they graduate high school...which brings us to how many today are graduating from high school?
I would also like to see stats on how many high school grads attend college vs. GED students...this all makes a difference...
Ken1015
06-11-2003, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Ghost Of Donger:
What legal steps can we take to keep women down? End affirmative action.
Leslie
06-11-2003, 12:16 PM
Ashaki add on how many young brotha's ahve kids before they get out of high school. '
Some how the message got lost and that having kids is okay and going on to get a degree is wack. I couldn't believe how many guys I went to college with came down there with kids left at home - an I suppose not surprisingly many of them didn't graduate for one reason or another..again, it goes back to support.
Koffy Brown
06-11-2003, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Leslie:
Ashaki add on how many young brotha's ahve kids before they get out of high school. '
Some how the message got lost and that having kids is okay and going on to get a degree is wack. I couldn't believe how many guys I went to college with came down there with kids left at home - an I suppose not surprisingly many of them didn't graduate for one reason or another..again, it goes back to support. I thought I typed that...but I was definitely thinking it...you are so right...
then again the environment you grow up in, in general...
especially when none of your family have college degrees...
Leslie
06-11-2003, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Leslie:
Ashaki add on how many young brotha's ahve kids before they get out of high school. '
Some how the message got lost and that having kids is okay and going on to get a degree is wack. I couldn't believe how many guys I went to college with came down there with kids left at home - an I suppose not surprisingly many of them didn't graduate for one reason or another..again, it goes back to support. I thought I typed that...but I was definitely thinking it...you are so right...
then again the environment you grow up in, in general...
especially when none of your family have college degrees... </font>[/QUOTE]Very true...I look at my family and that is definitely the truth. My grandfather sent his daughters to college so and I quote "if you stuck with some sorry ass man you can take care of yourself" and my father came from a family of teachers so it was expected in my family - so yes support, environment, it all comes into play - but I know one thing, thangs needz to change...
I don't even want to get on the economics of all this....
Koffy Brown
06-11-2003, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Leslie:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Leslie:
Ashaki add on how many young brotha's ahve kids before they get out of high school. '
Some how the message got lost and that having kids is okay and going on to get a degree is wack. I couldn't believe how many guys I went to college with came down there with kids left at home - an I suppose not surprisingly many of them didn't graduate for one reason or another..again, it goes back to support. I thought I typed that...but I was definitely thinking it...you are so right...
then again the environment you grow up in, in general...
especially when none of your family have college degrees... </font>[/QUOTE]Very true...I look at my family and that is definitely the truth. My grandfather sent his daughters to college so and I quote "if you stuck with some sorry ass man you can take care of yourself" and my father came from a family of teachers so it was expected in my family - so yes support, environment, it all comes into play - but I know one thing, thangs needz to change...
I don't even want to get on the economics of all this.... </font>[/QUOTE]We need to get off this liberal kick about giving our children freedom to basically ruin their lives...and stick with some traditional morals and values...it is a proven fact that education beyond high school is needed to be somewhat successful in this country...why are we giving our kids choices...I just don't get it...
In my house you have 2 options...college being the one that I am going to drill in your head...but the military as well...so it's one or the other...
Originally posted by Ashaki:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Leslie:
[qb] Ashaki add on how many young brotha's ahve kids before they get out of high school. '
Some how the message got lost and that having kids is okay and going on to get a degree is wack. I couldn't believe how many guys I went to college with came down there with kids left at home - an I suppose not surprisingly many of them didn't graduate for one reason or another..again, it goes back to support. This is so on-point.
I'm get very upset when men(generally latino and black) seem amazed that I'm 32 and have no children. Not to mention that some men in my family think I'm gay because of this. Goes to show you how much progress we need!!
Things really need to change... :(
Leslie
06-11-2003, 12:47 PM
Ashaki, espec if you are raising boys...I am NOT mad at you with the options that reign supreme in your household. I agree with you also about morals and standards. Enough of the babies raising babies!
MYOR - girl...please. I had some asshole step to me recently and asked me what was wrong with me that I was my age and didn't have any kids yet - meanwhile he done spread his seed all over and ain't taking care of nary a one of them...we need a change of mind to paraphrase Curtis Mayfield.
Koffy Brown
06-11-2003, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by Leslie:
Ashaki, espec if you are raising boys...I am NOT mad at you with the options that reign supreme in your household. I agree with you also about morals and standards. Enough of the babies raising babies!
MYOR - girl...please. I had some asshole step to me recently and asked me what was wrong with me that I was my age and didn't have any kids yet - meanwhile he done spread his seed all over and ain't taking care of nary a one of them...we need a change of mind to paraphrase Curtis Mayfield. I just think that fools have lost their minds, whenever I tell a man I am single "what's wrong with you" I'm like what the ****...*blank stare*
Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Leslie:
Ashaki, espec if you are raising boys...I am NOT mad at you with the options that reign supreme in your household. I agree with you also about morals and standards. Enough of the babies raising babies!
MYOR - girl...please. I had some asshole step to me recently and asked me what was wrong with me that I was my age and didn't have any kids yet - meanwhile he done spread his seed all over and ain't taking care of nary a one of them...we need a change of mind to paraphrase Curtis Mayfield. I just think that fools have lost their minds, whenever I tell a man I am single "what's wrong with you" I'm like what the ****...*blank stare* </font>[/QUOTE]OMG-This is so true.. What's wrong with you??
For a hot minute after hearing this SO much you start thinking . Yeah whats wrong with me? graemlins/stupid.gif
Then your sanity comes back to you..
Whats wrong with YOU is more like it... AR15firing.gif
Leslie
06-11-2003, 01:03 PM
They have pathetically low self esteem and need to accuse you of being wrong to over compensate for it.
Back to the issue at hand - getting more of our men of color not only in college, but to complete. The article doesn't give any solutions, does anybody have any suggestions at least or do we just try to reach out and affect those we have close proximity to? Maybe I am more bothered by the article than I should be, but I really don't think so...
Just from this thread alone there seems to be alot of things that can be worked on:
Leslie, I think you've touched on parts of the solution in this thread - better support and stronger families may be a good starting point. I also think values were touched upon on this thread - perhaps less emphasis on material goods from such an early age (this isn't just the black community, it's horrid in the asian community as well). Ashaki's posts point to better education on birth control, perhaps better role models/father figures/community activity to prevent boys from getting into trouble.
All of this is much easier said than done, but a concerted effort by even one adult can make a huge difference.
Fletch
06-11-2003, 04:31 PM
I have a bachelors, and ready to start pursuing my masters in the fall. This hits home with me because of an negative experience.
I used to go to a barbershop owned by two brothers (Black and siblings). I would always get a cut before I went back to school. One day, we had a discussion. I told them that I was in school. One of them responded "A college degree don't mean shit", and also indicated that I was wasting my time. He then proceeded to offer me applications for civil service exams (Transit, Sanitation, Police, etc). At the time, I was completely devestated.
I told my mother about this. Immediately, she lashed out, "you need to stop supporting them! Any man, especially any Black man, who tells you that you are wasting you time in college does not need to be in business. You need to stop patronizing them". Moms, with just a GED, was livid.
It took me a year before I stopped supporting them (got tired of them talkin' shit!). Though I stopped supporting them, I did come to an understanding of why they felt the way they felt. They were cats who thought that once you turn 18, you need to get out there and make a living (I believe that the "get out there and work" theory has been addressed on this thread).
College, in their opinion, was expensive and time wasting. And due to the number of "city jobs" available, getting work was the better option.
I wonder how many men who went in that barbershop were influenced by those two. Please note that this is NOT an anti-civil service thread. I work with the government by the way, and I am still glad I got my degree. Peace.
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