Latin Kings: A Streetgang Story

[ultra]

I viewed this documentary at the premiere last night. I can't say it was top notch documentary work, but it was certainly riveting to enter the world of the Latin Kings being a Zulu Queen myself, especially that the Latin Kings have taken so many things from the Zulu Nation and claim them to be their own, which makes me sick.

Check it out August 14th on HBO...

America Undercover sheds light on the shadowy world of what was perhaps the country's largest and most formidable gang. "King Tone", leader of the Latin King Nation of New York State, publicly espoused Puerto Rican nationalism as he attempted to convert the gang into an organization that helped the lives of the impoverished. However, the reality of the gang, as captured on surveillance tapes, included murder, kidnapping, drug dealing and assault.

Premieres Thursday, August 14 at 9:30pm ET

http://www.hbo.com/docs/programs/latin_kings/

[jimmymack-2000]

I don't have cable anymore! :(

This ALKN thing has interested me for a while, especially the ties to Barrios Unidos (I think that's the solidarity movement/charity they refer to)...

[richierich]

I've seen this documentary somewhere before. It was good. We have Kings here in the Chi.. don't get it twisted they aint no joke!!

[Mack-Williams]

Originally posted by richierich:
I've seen this documentary somewhere before. It was good. We have Kings here in the Chi.. don't get it twisted they aint no joke!! Straight up, they crazy. Pilsen area and Humbolt Park. I don't even mess around.

[Mocambo]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
I've seen this documentary somewhere before. It was good. We have Kings here in the Chi.. don't get it twisted they aint no joke!! Straight up, they crazy. Pilsen area and Humbolt Park. I don't even mess around. </font>[/QUOTE]I went to high school with the cats. CRAZY!!!

[Drrtynewyork]

i want to check this for sure. I knew some of them who were in jail. One of them showed me how they would conceal razor blades in their mouths :eek:

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by ultra:
especially that the Latin Kings have taken so many things from the Zulu Nation and claim them to be their own, which makes me sick.
Could you elaborate? I know very little about the Latin Kings other than just about every Latino I've known who came out of Rikers came out preaching.

[ August 07, 2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: DJ 138 ]

[richierich]

Chicago is Gang Bang city anyways..since way back
there are all these renegade cliques now and that's what makes it even more dangerous. They don't follow law since most of the heads are locked up it's free reign. Plus they run their mouths too much now.. they say stuff around ANYBODY and that aint supposed to happen. Shootings over girls, personal beefs, serving on someone elses block without approval it's just madness now.

[ August 07, 2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

[Leslie]

Very interesting indeed! When I was still working at Federal Court in Manhattan and they brought them in - it was a mad house. I was the one putting in all the indictments so I had to put in all their names and king and queen alias' as well as all the counts against them. I got so damn tired of seeing all that yellow and black.

Well I have to say those names where way easier than when they had the all out assault on the gangs in Chinatown - The Flying Dragons and the Ghostkillers, etc - not to discount the evilness of the LK and the stuff they did, but those Chinese gangs were NO DAMN JOKE either. They talk about black on black violence which is real the things they did to their own were something else!

[alex zen]

Originally posted by Silhouette:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
I've seen this documentary somewhere before. It was good. We have Kings here in the Chi.. don't get it twisted they aint no joke!! Straight up, they crazy. Pilsen area and Humbolt Park. I don't even mess around. </font>[/QUOTE]I went to high school with the cats. CRAZY!!! </font>[/QUOTE]i went to lakeview, which was all folks, and kings used drive right up to the front door and just start shooting at anybody. gangs suck!

[jimmymack-2000]

Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site...

[alex zen]

chicago is the only place with a hillbilly gang call the gaylords graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[Leslie]

Originally posted by richierich:
Chicago is Gang Bang city anyways..since way back
there are all these renegade cliques now and that's what makes it even more dangerous. They don't follow law since most of the heads are locked up it's free reign. Plus they run their mouths too much now.. they say stuff around ANYBODY and that aint supposed to happen. Shootings over girls, personal beefs, serving on someone elses block without approval it's just madness now. That is how it is across the board - even in the Mafia which is a joke now compared to what it used to be. They roll on each other on the regular now which was unheard of prior to Sonny the Bull - not that he was the first, but when he rolled on Gotti it completely changed the ideaology from being one of silence to okay what'll you give me if I give you so & so....I am not trying to romanticise criminal activity but within alot of these gangs how violent business was handled was a lot different and as Richie said its cause all the old heads who knew the way of handling things that kept the violence to somewhat of a minimum were all locked up. If you watch The Wire on HBO last weeks episode shows just that.

[ August 07, 2003, 03:28 PM: Message edited by: Leslie ]

[Mack-Williams]

I remember when I had to stay a night at Cook County. When I got out they told me don't walk to the EL get on the first Bus you see going in the direction you need to go. They said the Kings be messing people up when they get out of County.

[ August 07, 2003, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Mack-Williams ]

[richierich]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
I remember when I had to stay a night at Cook County. When I got out they me don't walk to the EL get on the first Bus you see going in the direction you need to go. They said the Kings be messing people up when they get out of County. I went to see one of my boys in DIV.IX and when I came out they had smashed my mom's car tore off the steering column and everything and that was in the jail parking lot.

[ August 07, 2003, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

[jsd540]

Originally posted by ultra:
Zulu Queen myself,
Hola !!! I always thought you were a Spanish Princess hail.gif ... Hey Where's my flash tape ? graemlins/conf44.gif

[richierich]

The fact that there is a website like that shows you SOMEBODY ran there mouth...I'm surprised they don't have "lit" on there.

[Mocambo]

Originally posted by alexander james zen:
chicago is the only place with a hillbilly gang call the gaylords graemlins/jpshakehead.gif We had about 2 cats at Lincoln Park HS. Madness

[Huey P. Freeman]

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site... Alot of the info is wrong... It has 61st and Langley as a knowd Gangster Disciple set. I grew up over there and my grandmother lives there now. There have been no GDs over there for at least 15 years.

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by richierich:
The fact that there is a website like that shows you SOMEBODY ran there mouth...I'm surprised they don't have "lit" on there. I'm surprised they didn't have "lit" on the site myself. They included everything else. It almost reads like the police reports on gang activity in Chicago. A friend of mine, who was a high-ranking official in the Kings, was murdered in front of his barbershop a few months ago. Crime doesn't pay, especially nowadays when dishonor before death is the norm.

[Tony Cano]

one of my friends was the leader and is now doing life for trafficing. we use to dj for all the parties and make them tapes. they always liked the music we played so they never recruited us or messed with us. If anything, they protected us.

looking back, those were some crazy times.

tc

[jimmymack-2000]

What is "lit," might I ask?

[fred da warrior]

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
What is "lit," might I ask? "literature"

[Mack-Williams]

Originally posted by fred:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
What is "lit," might I ask? "literature" </font>[/QUOTE]That's a name of a gang.

[alex zen]

Originally posted by fred:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
What is "lit," might I ask? "literature" </font>[/QUOTE]rules, philosophy, history, stuff like that. supposed to be on the dl.

[ultra]

Their hand symbol (first finger and pinky up) is the Zulu greeting...

The fact that they call their meetings "Universals" is a Zulu thing...

Many things I saw in that film we claim as our own. We've been around since 1971, while they have been around since 1986.

You figure the math.

Peace baby.


Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ultra:
especially that the Latin Kings have taken so many things from the Zulu Nation and claim them to be their own, which makes me sick.
Could you elaborate? I know very little about the Latin Kings other than just about every Latino I've known who came out of Rikers came out preaching. </font>[/QUOTE]

[richierich]

Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site... Alot of the info is wrong... It has 61st and Langley as a knowd Gangster Disciple set. I grew up over there and my grandmother lives there now. There have been no GDs over there for at least 15 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Those are VICELORDS

[Mocambo]

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site... Looking at the site,there were alot of gangs I knew of when I was younger. Royals, Bishops, black souls, KCs, MCs, etc.

I'm glad mentally I'm away from it all................now.

[alex zen]

Originally posted by ultra:
Their hand symbol (first finger and pinky up) is the Zulu greeting...

The fact that they call their meetings "Universals" is a Zulu thing...

Many things I saw in that film we claim as our own. We've been around since 1971, while they have been around since 1986.

You figure the math.

Peace baby.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ultra:
especially that the Latin Kings have taken so many things from the Zulu Nation and claim them to be their own, which makes me sick.
Could you elaborate? I know very little about the Latin Kings other than just about every Latino I've known who came out of Rikers came out preaching. </font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]the kings have been around since the 60's.

[Huey P. Freeman]

Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site... Alot of the info is wrong... It has 61st and Langley as a knowd Gangster Disciple set. I grew up over there and my grandmother lives there now. There have been no GDs over there for at least 15 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Those are VICELORDS </font>[/QUOTE]Nope Black Stones and MC's.

[Ronnie Ron]

Anyone ever read the book,

"MONSTER" the autobiography of an L.A. Gang member

by Sanyika Shakur, aka Monster Kody Scott/Pinguin books/1993

This was pretty damn wild!!!


R-R

[richierich]

Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site... Alot of the info is wrong... It has 61st and Langley as a knowd Gangster Disciple set. I grew up over there and my grandmother lives there now. There have been no GDs over there for at least 15 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Those are VICELORDS </font>[/QUOTE]Nope Black Stones and MC's. </font>[/QUOTE]wHAAAAAT???I USED TO LIVE IN THAT BIG BUILDING ON 61ST AND COTTAGE GROVE AND HUNG ON 61ST & 62ND AND ST. LAWRENCE AND IT WAS AN INSANE THANG AND ..NOW IT'S MOES AND MICKEYS HUH ..WOW THINGS CHANGE I CAN'T KEEP UP ANYMORE..STILL UNDER THE "FIN" THOUGH

[ August 07, 2003, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

[richierich]

Originally posted by RonnieRon:
Anyone ever read the book,

"MONSTER" the autobiography of an L.A. Gang member

by Sanyika Shakur, aka Monster Kody Scott/Pinguin books/1993

This was pretty damn wild!!!


R-R Yeah I READ THAT monster cody THAT WAS WILD ..SOME SEEMED EXAGGERRATED BUT some was the real deal you could tell. What about the part when they were locked up and ole boy beat dude down, tied him up and was going to **** him in the ass!

[ August 07, 2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: richierich ]

[Huey P. Freeman]

Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site... Alot of the info is wrong... It has 61st and Langley as a knowd Gangster Disciple set. I grew up over there and my grandmother lives there now. There have been no GDs over there for at least 15 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Those are VICELORDS </font>[/QUOTE]Nope Black Stones and MC's. </font>[/QUOTE]wHAAAAAT???I USED TO LIVE IN THAT BIG BUILDING ON 61ST AND COTTAGE GROVE AND HUNG ON 61ST & 62ND AND ST. LAWRENCE AND IT WAS AN INSANE THANG AND ..NOW IT'S MOES AND MICKEYS HUH ..WOW THINGS CHANGE I CAN'T KEEP UP ANYMORE </font>[/QUOTE]About 15 years ago the area you are talking about(61st&62nd and St Lawrence) was all conservative vicelords. Some got locked up and some got strung out. They are all gone now.

[richierich]

Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site... Alot of the info is wrong... It has 61st and Langley as a knowd Gangster Disciple set. I grew up over there and my grandmother lives there now. There have been no GDs over there for at least 15 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Those are VICELORDS </font>[/QUOTE]Nope Black Stones and MC's. </font>[/QUOTE]wHAAAAAT???I USED TO LIVE IN THAT BIG BUILDING ON 61ST AND COTTAGE GROVE AND HUNG ON 61ST & 62ND AND ST. LAWRENCE AND IT WAS AN INSANE THANG AND ..NOW IT'S MOES AND MICKEYS HUH ..WOW THINGS CHANGE I CAN'T KEEP UP ANYMORE </font>[/QUOTE]About 15 years ago the area you are talking about(61st&62nd and St Lawrence) was all conservative vicelords. Some got locked up and some got strung out. They are all gone now. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you know Tank???

[GrantB]

Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site... Alot of the info is wrong... It has 61st and Langley as a knowd Gangster Disciple set. I grew up over there and my grandmother lives there now. There have been no GDs over there for at least 15 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Damn we have (B)GDs all the way out here in Seattle/Tacoma. Grey hair and shit. It's a lucky MFer who's still alive after being in that life since the 60s.

[fred da warrior]

Shiddd, Chicago....Don't underestimate the gangs influence on house music/ culture. Coming home from a party and waiting at the bus stop WAS an adventure depending where you was at and where you lived (especially if you dressed preppy). I gave up a couple of Gucci Belts waiting on the 9 @ night. Even though some of the hardest muh fuggas was sticking they heads in the speakers during the party, that same cat and his people would mop yo ass afterwards.

Btw, who used to go to the "Fort" to party. Those shits used to jump.

[Jamie 3:26]

Originally posted by fred:
Shiddd, Chicago....Don't underestimate the gangs influence on house music/ culture. Coming home from a party and waiting at the bus stop WAS an adventure depending where you was at and where you lived (especially if you dressed preppy). I gave up a couple of Gucci Belts waiting on the 9 @ night. Even though some of the hardest muh fuggas was sticking they heads in the speakers during the party, that same cat and his people would mop yo ass afterwards.

Btw, who used to go to the "Fort" to party. Those shits used to jump. Rush used to spin at the Fort back in the day...

[Drrtynewyork]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RonnieRon:
Anyone ever read the book,

"MONSTER" the autobiography of an L.A. Gang member

by Sanyika Shakur, aka Monster Kody Scott/Pinguin books/1993

This was pretty damn wild!!!


R-R [/QUOTE

i did! good book !

[Huey P. Freeman]

Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Eargasm:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Chicago Hoodz (http://www.chicagohoodz.com/gangs/latinkings.html)

This is a good site... Alot of the info is wrong... It has 61st and Langley as a knowd Gangster Disciple set. I grew up over there and my grandmother lives there now. There have been no GDs over there for at least 15 years. </font>[/QUOTE]Those are VICELORDS </font>[/QUOTE]Nope Black Stones and MC's. </font>[/QUOTE]wHAAAAAT???I USED TO LIVE IN THAT BIG BUILDING ON 61ST AND COTTAGE GROVE AND HUNG ON 61ST & 62ND AND ST. LAWRENCE AND IT WAS AN INSANE THANG AND ..NOW IT'S MOES AND MICKEYS HUH ..WOW THINGS CHANGE I CAN'T KEEP UP ANYMORE </font>[/QUOTE]About 15 years ago the area you are talking about(61st&62nd and St Lawrence) was all conservative vicelords. Some got locked up and some got strung out. They are all gone now. </font>[/QUOTE]Do you know Tank??? </font>[/QUOTE]I know a couple people called tank. One was an older Vicelord cat I knew. One was a bitch ass folks nigga I grew up with. Both lived on St. Lawrence.

[jcapeverde]

Originally posted by alexander james zen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Silhouette:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
I've seen this documentary somewhere before. It was good. We have Kings here in the Chi.. don't get it twisted they aint no joke!! Straight up, they crazy. Pilsen area and Humbolt Park. I don't even mess around. </font>[/QUOTE]I went to high school with the cats. CRAZY!!! </font>[/QUOTE]i went to lakeview, which was all folks, and kings used drive right up to the front door and just start shooting at anybody. gangs suck! </font>[/QUOTE]Sounds like what we used to do 30 years ago when I was in the Peacemakers. We would go up to their front door, knock and shoot at whoever answered. We called it playing knock-knock. Unfortunately one of my sons is upstate now for Blood activity. He wrote that they would tie a string around someone's balls, tie the other end to the bars and jump on the rope! After seeing what goes on & talking to other inmates who messed up their live, he's seeing that there's no future in it and regrets what he's done to his victims, family and himself. I'm praying he keeps that attitude when he comes home & works as hard to stay out as he did to get in.

[ August 07, 2003, 09:24 PM: Message edited by: jcapeverde ]

[ultra]

While the Latin Kings in Chicago may have started in 1960, the NYC chapter was created in 1986 according to the film I saw last night. Out of Tone's mouth did the year "1986" come out.


Originally posted by alexander james zen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ultra:
Their hand symbol (first finger and pinky up) is the Zulu greeting...

The fact that they call their meetings "Universals" is a Zulu thing...

Many things I saw in that film we claim as our own. We've been around since 1971, while they have been around since 1986.

You figure the math.

Peace baby.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ultra:
especially that the Latin Kings have taken so many things from the Zulu Nation and claim them to be their own, which makes me sick.
Could you elaborate? I know very little about the Latin Kings other than just about every Latino I've known who came out of Rikers came out preaching. </font>[/QUOTE]</font>[/QUOTE]the kings have been around since the 60's. </font>[/QUOTE]

[ August 07, 2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: ultra ]

[ultra]

Mira loco! smile.gif

I know I owe you some tapes baby. Sorry. A sis been busy with work, booming business, and a very active social life. What can I say?

Someday soon, young man! smile.gif


Originally posted by jsd540:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ultra:
Zulu Queen myself,
Hola !!! I always thought you were a Spanish Princess hail.gif ... Hey Where's my flash tape ? graemlins/conf44.gif </font>[/QUOTE]

[BHouse]

Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
I remember when I had to stay a night at Cook County. When I got out they me don't walk to the EL get on the first Bus you see going in the direction you need to go. They said the Kings be messing people up when they get out of County. I went to see one of my boys in DIV.IX and when I came out they had smashed my mom's car tore off the steering column and everything and that was in the jail parking lot. </font>[/QUOTE]graemlins/lol.gif graemlins/lol.gif graemlins/lol.gif Funny, but true. I just want to say that most of these so called "gangsters or gang members" are THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF P****s. Most of these guys won't do nuthin' unless they have backup. True men/women handle their business regardless of who is around to support them. Anyone see that big gang fight on the Southside last week at a picnic. That sh*t was stooooopid...The only who got shot was a 13yr old girl sitting in a car. Why can't they ever shoot the mo'fo they are aiming at???

[Jamie 3:26]

Originally posted by BHouse:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by richierich:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
I remember when I had to stay a night at Cook County. When I got out they me don't walk to the EL get on the first Bus you see going in the direction you need to go. They said the Kings be messing people up when they get out of County. I went to see one of my boys in DIV.IX and when I came out they had smashed my mom's car tore off the steering column and everything and that was in the jail parking lot. </font>[/QUOTE]graemlins/lol.gif graemlins/lol.gif graemlins/lol.gif Funny, but true. I just want to say that most of these so called "gangsters or gang members" are THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF P****s. Most of these guys won't do nuthin' unless they have backup. True men/women handle their business regardless of who is around to support them. Anyone see that big gang fight on the Southside last week at a picnic. That sh*t was stooooopid...The only who got shot was a 13yr old girl sitting in a car. Why can't they ever shoot the mo'fo they are aiming at??? </font>[/QUOTE]It was an MC picnic for Mickey.A 9 year old boy was shot.

[Mike Barnes]

Just to add to the information about the Underworld(Mafia)that Leslie mentioned earlier in reference to cats screaming(Talking to the Feds)on one another, Joe Valachi was the first made(Down for life)cat in the underworld to scream on cats in the mafia in 1963, And that was because Vito Genovese(One of the most feared cats ever in the underworld), Had a contract out on his life while Joe Valachi was in prison in the early 60's, On the low, There has been a number of cats in the mafia that has screamed on others in the underworld since the years that Joe Valachi went before the Knapp Commission in 1963(Live on TV at that), Also, Nicky Barnes(Well-Known Drug Dealer from New York in the 70's)Screamed on the Mafia in the early 80's(Nicky Barnes was doing major Fedtime/Jail for Life in the late 70's, And Nicky Barnes was partners with a few cats in the Mafia who had big connections in the Government(Word)and with Columbian drug dealers in the early 70's to late 70's), Quiet as its kept, Cats have always been screaming on one another in the mafia for decades(That's why the Government setup the witness protection program in 1970, But because of safety and health concerns(Getting Moved on/****ed up for talking), The Government will not identify all of those who have come forward and cut a deal and sometimes the media will not know about alot of the cats either, But the streets will always talk though(LOL).
Later
Mike Barnes

[The Donger]

Originally posted by jcapeverde:
Unfortunately one of my sons is upstate now for Blood activity. He wrote that they would tie a string around someone's balls, tie the other end to the bars and jump on the rope! damn, that's a different level of suffering right there...

[Leslie]

Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Just to add to the information about the Underworld(Mafia)that Leslie mentioned earlier in reference to cats screaming(Talking to the Feds)on one another, Joe Valachi was the first made(Down for life)cat in the underworld to scream on cats in the mafia in 1963, And that was because Vito Genovese(One of the most feared cats ever in the underworld), Had a contract out on his life while Joe Valachi was in prison in the early 60's, On the low, There has been a number of cats in the mafia that has screamed on others in the underworld since the years that Joe Valachi went before the Knapp Commission in 1963(Live on TV at that), Also, Nicky Barnes(Well-Known Drug Dealer from New York in the 70's)Screamed on the Mafia in the early 80's(Nicky Barnes was doing major Fedtime/Jail for Life in the late 70's, And Nicky Barnes was partners with a few cats in the Mafia who had big connections in the Government(Word)and with Columbian drug dealers in the early 70's to late 70's), Quiet as its kept, Cats have always been screaming on one another in the mafia for decades(That's why the Government setup the witness protection program in 1970, But because of safety and health concerns(Getting Moved on/****ed up for talking), The Government will not identify all of those who have come forward and cut a deal and sometimes the media will not know about alot of the cats either, But the streets will always talk though(LOL).
Later
Mike Barnes Yea Mike, I remember quite well the story 60 Minutes did back in the very early '80's on Leroy "Nicky" Barnes. Is he still alive?

As far as who does what on the lolo - so very, very true....there are indictments that remain sealed for years and years due to cooperation by numerous John and Jane Does - I always found it funny when something would get unsealed from many, many years back and that's when you knew someone screwed up in the witness protection program - which by the way is not exclusively for those squeeling on the mob....

[richierich]

Also Jimmy "The Weasel" Fratiano did Major damage running his mouth to the Feds and he's still around.(HE ALSO WAS "MADE")

[Ken1015]

Originally posted by GrantB:
Damn we have (B)GDs all the way out here in Seattle/Tacoma. Grey hair and shit. It's a lucky MFer who's still alive after being in that life since the 60s. The infamous L.A. gang, The Bloods was started by a member of the Disciples from Chicago. GQ did a very good article on him a few years back. He's preaching the error of his former ways now.

There was a profile of the leader of the NYC Latin Kings on one of the newsmagazines. I believe it was 60 Minutes. He was also explaining how he was trying to steer the crew away from criminal pursuits and how they serve the community.

The results of putting faith in gang leaders was horribly illustrated a few years ago here in Chicago when the leader of the Disciples, Larry Hoover, was up for parole. He had many supporters including a former interim mayor singing his praises on how he turned his life around and should be freed. Meanwhile the FBI was secretly recording conversations between him and his visitors and found that he was still running the empire from jail.

An illustration of honor and respect for elders amongst gang members in Chicago was seen in the reception Vice Lord kingpin Willie Lloyd received upon his release from jail. Members of his own gang were shooting at him on the damn Eisenhower expressway. He was actually safer in jail.

[ August 08, 2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Ken1015 ]

[Mack-Williams]

Lloyd is out of prison.
http://gangresearch.net/ganghistory/UrbanCrisis/ViceLords/lloyd.html

[Mike Barnes]

Say Leslie, Nicky Barnes is currently in the Witness protection program for the last few years, I think he was released from Fedtime/Jail around 1999/2000, After screaming(talking)on cats from back in the early 80's, I have a documentary on Nicky Barnes and a cat named Guy Fisher(Well-Known Drug Dealer from the Bronx who was crew with Nicky Barnes, But is currently doing fedtime for life at I think Lewisburg Federal Prison in Pennyslvania), And the Documentary shows Nicky Barnes going into the courtroom during his trial with a hood over his head(But cats knew it was him though)and testifying against those who were down with him and his crew and the mafia, the Documantary is called the Guy Fisher story, But Nicky Barnes is in the documentry alot.
Later
Mike Barnes

[Ken1015]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
Lloyd is out of prison.
http://gangresearch.net/ganghistory/UrbanCrisis/ViceLords/lloyd.html http://deephousepage.com/smilies/conf45.gif I forgot he was out. Now I remember reading in the Tribune about the uproar over this class.

[Barrie Moodswing]

Reading all this makes me think i've lead a very sheltered life, I don't think anything like this goes on in the UK apart from soccer violence, sounds pretty scary to me graemlins/scared.gif

[Leslie]

Very long but definitely on topic, will be in this coming Sunday's NY Times Magazine section....

August 10, 2003
Has Stanley Williams Left the Gang?
By KIMBERLEY SEVCIK


Stanley Williams isn't calling. He promised to call at 1:30 p.m., but it's 1:50 now, and the phone sits silently in the middle of a long table in a cramped conference room of the Alameda County Juvenile Hall in San Leandro, Calif. Around it are 15 boys, ages 16 through 18, who have been found guilty of robbery, curfew violation or assault. They have each brought with them a list of questions, and they pass around a single pencil, making last-minute adjustments. One boy gets up to head to the bathroom, and another says: ''Dude! You're going to miss him!''

The clock says 1:55 now.

It says 2:00.

The boys had arrived right on time, some of them early even. They've gathered to talk to Williams about his book ''Life in Prison,'' an uncomfortably candid account of what it's really like behind bars. As a co-founder of the Crips, which rivals the Bloods as the most notorious, far-flung gang-crime syndicate in the world, Williams has plenty of street cred. He wrote the book in his cell on death row in San Quentin prison, where he has been for more than 22 years, having been convicted of four homicides. He wrote it for these boys, and all the kids across the country like them, to persuade them to turn back before it's too late. Don't be fooled by the gladiator stories you hear about prison, he is saying. This place is hell on earth.

To convince them, he suggests a few experiments.

''To get a feel for what it's like to live in a prison cell,'' he writes, ''spend 10 hours -- nonstop and alone -- in your bathroom. . . . Lock yourself inside with no more than a radio, a blanket, a book or magazine and a couple of sandwiches. . . . You can talk to family members through the door, but don't open it.''

There aren't many books that hold the attention of the boys at the Alameda County facility, but ''Life in Prison'' is one of them, according to Amy Cheney, a librarian who works at the detention center. When Cheney finds a book like that, she invites the author to come in and talk to the kids. Williams, of course, can't visit, so he calls collect from death row every few months.

At 2:05, the phone rings in the office adjacent to the conference room. ''Maybe it's him!'' a few of the boys say. But it's not, and the boys' disappointment is coming out angry.

He forgot about us.

He doesn't care.

He's just pretending he cares.

''I'm not sticking around for this,'' one boy says, and he's up, moving toward the door. A minute later, he's back in his seat.

What the boys and Cheney don't know is that there has been a lock-down at San Quentin, and none of the prisoners have been allowed to use the phone. Cheney is getting worried. ''It's hard to convince these kids that someday they'll regret what they're doing,'' she says. ''They need to hear it from a person who has suffered the consequences, and they need to hear it more than once. That's why Stanley Williams is worth a lot more alive than dead.''


It isn't easy to reconcile the image of the new Stanley Williams, a children's-book author and youth advocate, with that of the old Stanley Williams, a gang leader and convicted murderer. The arc of his life raises fundamental, perennial questions about human nature: Is character fixed or mutable? Can a person who is capable of tremendous harm also be capable of tremendous good?

Today Stanley Williams, who is also known as Tookie, wakes up every morning at 4 to write, before the prison tiers reverberate with shouting. He doesn't have a chair or a desk in his cell, so he uses a rolled-up mattress as a stool and his bed frame as a desk. Sometimes he writes by hand answers to messages from conflicted gangsters who e-mail him at his Web site, Tookie's Corner. Sometimes he works on the monthly newsletter he writes for kids. He has also written, with a former journalist named Barbara Becnel, nine children's books warning young people away from gangs, and he recently submitted a document to Los Angeles community leaders with suggestions about how to combat the once-again-rising tide of gang violence. (There were 616 gang-related homicides in Los Angeles in 2002.) In recognition of his advocacy work, Williams has been nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize three times -- in 2001, in 2002 and again this year. He even earned an uncommon recommendation from the Ninth Circuit Court last year, which, in the process of rejecting his appeal, noted that he would be a worthy candidate for clemency because of his ''laudable efforts opposing gang violence.''

When Williams, now 49, arrived on death row at age 27, a personality test indicated that he was ''a violent, assaultive and combative individual who tries to keep these feelings controlled.'' This is the Stanley Williams who co-founded the Crips, setting in motion a legacy of wanton violence. Los Angeles had a history of gangs, but the Crips took gang violence beyond community turf wars. They were known for drive-by shootings and armed robberies, for cruising foreign neighborhoods and picking fights. Membership multiplied quickly, thanks to their fierce reputation, and new gangs formed to protect themselves from their aggression -- including a rival supergang, the Bloods. Since then, hundreds of spinoff Crips gangs have been formed, not only in the United States but also in Belize, Switzerland and South Africa.

There are plenty of redemption stories among prisoners, but the dramatic contours of Williams's story has made his case a cause celebre. Since his Nobel nomination, Williams has become a vehicle for the arguments of opposing camps of the death-penalty debate. Victims' rights groups and gang investigators see him as a glorified criminal who has earned his execution, not only for his own crimes but also for the thousands more that his gang has motivated and carried out. Death-penalty abolitionists see him as a tragic hero. His case epitomizes one of their main objections to capital punishment: how, they ask, can we execute someone who is making invaluable contributions to society?

The passions on both sides are very likely to be fueled soon, when Stanley Williams becomes known to a much wider audience. A new anti-violence ad campaign endorsed by the National Ad Council will hit TV and radio soon, with Williams in the role of spokesman. And the FX network is in production on ''Redemption: the Stan 'Tookie' Williams Story,'' starring Jamie Foxx, which frames Williams's case as a tale of heroic transformation. The network plans to show it in December, but since Williams has no access to cable TV, he'll never have the chance to see the Hollywood version of his life.

am accompanied on my visit to San Quentin to meet Williams by Barbara Becnel. Becnel is more than the co-author and editor of Williams's books. She's his conduit to the outside world, his de facto publicist and his fiercest advocate. Becnel is also the executive director of Neighborhood House of North Richmond, a social services program in one of the Bay Area's poorest neighborhoods, which uses Williams's books and Web site (which Becnel administers) in its gang-and-violence-prevention program.

We are led by a guard into one of 15 steel cages where inmates and visitors meet to talk. In the cover photograph for ''Life in Prison,'' Williams looks intimidating. It's not just his heft -- the wrecking-ball biceps and cross-beam shoulders; it's his don't-mess-with-me expression. In person, he's not so much intimidating as he is imposing. He walks slowly, magisterially, his broad chest thrust forward, his nose tilted ever so slightly upward. Gone are the cornrow braids of the book-jacket photograph; instead, his hair is shorn close to his head, his beard spiked with gray. His mauve, wire-rimmed glasses give him a scholarly air. But it's his voice that surprises me: not quite gentle, but disarmingly soft.

For a former thug, Williams comes off as somber, even a trifle square. He says he doesn't smoke, gamble, do drugs, curse, drink alcohol or look at pornography, which he calls ''the nasty books.'' He chooses his words carefully. If there's a bigger word available, a more sophisticated word, Williams will use it: ''mendacious'' instead of ''lying,'' ''tacit'' instead of ''silent.'' He says ''individuals'' when referring to fellow inmates -- never guys. Never plain old ''people.''

Beneath Williams's bookish facade, however, I can still sense the gang leader in him. It's the authority in his quiet voice: the way he sits, rooted and decisive, so that I have to lean forward to hear what he is saying, and dismisses questions he doesn't want to answer. Occasionally he consults a stack of business-card-size notes to ensure that he is touching on the points that he wants to make, particularly that he's innocent of the murders of which he has been convicted. His answers to my questions are guarded, almost practiced. He knows that he is a man under surveillance: by the prison, by the media and by the courts. He is in the most vulnerable position imaginable; yet somehow Williams manages to give the impression of a man in control.


Stanley Williams was introduced to the violent street culture of South Central L.A. on his first day there at age 6. He was fresh off the bus from Shreveport, La., when another boy approached and asked him his name. ''Tookie,'' he answered, and the boy promptly punched him in the face. Williams's parents divorced two years earlier. His job, as he saw it, was to protect his mother and sister, and to that effect, he carried with him a sharpened butter knife. Routine errands in the neighborhood involved dashing through a gantlet of older boys, who patted him down for money. ''I got my ideas about how to be a man from the street -- from the hustlers and pimps,'' he says.

In 1971, when Williams was 17, he and a friend named Raymond Washington started the Crips. Williams makes it sound casual, like organizing a group of friends to shoot hoops: ''We were tired of the violence and harassment in our neighborhood,'' he says, ''so we got together some people we knew to address it.'' Gang historians, predictably, have a more complicated explanation for the Crips' genesis. They see it as an attempt by disenfranchised black teenagers to fill the power void left by the dissolution of the Black Panther movement. Starting a gang was also a guaranteed way to get respect -- and Williams had the drive and charisma to do it. ''I was never a follower, and I was never easily manipulated,'' he says. ''I made up my mind what I wanted, and I never let anyone tell me I couldn't do it.''

Back then Williams was one of the smallest kids in the neighborhood. But he knew that in a place like South Central, the more threatening you looked, the less threatened you felt. At 19, Williams began weight lifting. A lot. After about a year, he was bench-pressing 600 pounds and eating for two people. ''I was monstrous,'' he says.

Williams reached the height of what he calls his ''madness'' in his 20's. He readily makes sweeping pronouncements about his sordid past: ''I was a despicable human being without a conscience,'' he says. About the details, however, he is vaguer. ''Just imagine all manner of criminal behavior.'' Williams had several run-ins with the police during his 20's, but his adult criminal record was clean until, on Feb. 7, 1979, at age 25, he walked into a convenience store outside Los Angeles with a sawed-off shotgun.

He and three friends had been driving around during the predawn hours. At about 4 a.m., they spotted a 26-year-old clerk named Albert Owens sweeping the parking lot of a 7-Eleven. Court records describe Williams herding Owens into the storeroom and ordering him to lie face down on the floor, before shooting him twice in the back. At some point, one of the men took $120 from the cash register. Two weeks later, Williams broke down the quadruple-locked door of an L.A. motel and shot Yen-I Yang and Tsai-Shai Yang, the Taiwanese proprietors. When their daughter Ye Chen Lin heard her parents' screams and came out of her bedroom to investigate, Williams shot her too, leaving only one survivor from the immediate family, Robert Yang.

A tip from Williams's friend James Garrett, who told police that Williams had bragged to him about the murders, led to Williams's arrest. While being held at the county jail before his trial, Williams broke three pairs of handcuffs and had to be subdued with psychotropic drugs. His disposition didn't change much during his first few years in prison: he hung out with other Crips, and his memoirs describe a man still obsessed with the power high of gang leading. Then, in 1985, a chaplain gave him a dictionary. ''I began falling in love with words,'' he says. ''I would write down 50 words on one side of a paper towel, then put the definitions on the other side and test myself.'' He says he began reading too: black history and philosophy and world religion. Williams says that he never had an epiphany that compelled him to change his life. As he describes it, he developed a conscience gradually, through educating himself.

Had Williams not met Becnel, however, his stated regrets about his life with the Crips might never have been known beyond the walls of San Quentin. In 1993, Becnel, who was a journalist at the time, approached him about writing a history of the Crips and the Bloods. After months of correspondence, she persuaded him to let her interview him. Becnel says Williams was plagued with guilt. ''He said to me, 'Teenagers around the country are catching hell based on something I created.' '' He had been thinking of ways to get his message out into the world.

There is a small but vocal group of people who say that the new Stanley Williams is a Barbara Becnel production, that she is the one writing the books and he's just signing off on them. But Becnel insists that the books were Williams's idea, and that she was wary of him. ''It seemed like a cliche,'' she says, ''the middle-class woman getting duped by the death-row inmate.''

So, she says, she tested him. Becnel knew that the architects of the 1993 truce between the Crips and the Bloods were planning a peace summit meeting, so she asked Williams if he would be willing to deliver a videotaped address supporting the truce. To her surprise, he agreed, and Becnel arranged for the taping. The video was played at a Westin ballroom in Los Angeles for 400 rapt gangsters. When Williams concluded and the screen went black, kids clambered to their feet, applauding and cheering. Becnel says that over the next year she became convinced of his sincerity, and she agreed to peddle his book proposal.

Not everyone, of course, is as confident in Williams's conversion. Some say he is simply an egotist craving the kind of attention that he got as leader of the Crips. Others say he is a con man angling for his freedom. ''I don't think a murderer like Stanley Williams can be reformed,'' says Nancy Ruhe-Munch, executive director of Parents of Murdered Children, a victims advocacy group. ''I think he's just writing these books because he wants to get off death row.'' (That's an unlikely prospect considering that Williams has already had dozens of failed appeals, and no clemency has been granted in California since the death penalty was restored there in 1977.) Still others say that whatever his motivations or the merits of his recent work, Stanley Williams has simply wrought more damage than he could ever undo.


The boys at Alameda County Juvenile Hall have pretty much given up hope that Stanley Williams will call. They have been waiting for almost an hour when a secretary yells into the conference room. ''It's him! He's on the phone!'' Bodies are adjusted and notes are scanned. There is a hush in the room.

''Hello, gentlemen,'' Williams's voice says from the speakerphone in the middle of the table. Murmurs of ''Hello, Mr. Williams'' come from up and down the table. Williams apologizes for the delay and opens the floor. One by one, the boys introduce themselves and recite their questions in stilted reading voices.

''My name is Omar. Can you tell me what you miss most about the outside world?''

''Hi, Mr. Williams, I'm Maurice. So if you knew what you know now when you were young, do you think you would be in jail?''

''I'm Joseph. When you started the Crips, did you know it would spread all over the country?''

''Hello, sir, I'm Dante, and my question is, how would you prefer to be executed?''

Williams tells them that he misses women and good food most, in that order, and the boys laugh in agreement. He tells them that he regrets not getting a good education when he was young, and that he prays that they realize how important it is. He tells them that when he started the Crips, he didn't know or care that it would spread across the United States. ''At the time, Raymond Washington and I were primarily concerned about our own reputations,'' he says. He laughs a little at the question about his preferred method of execution, then says, ''Well, they say you have a choice, gas or the needle . . . intravenously . . . ''' but he doesn't finish the thought.

About 40 minutes into the call, an anodyne female voice interrupts and says, ''The time remaining is 30 seconds.'' There is a short silence before Williams speaks.

''All right, so you guys take care,'' he says. ''I look forward to talking to you again.''

''Thank you, sir''; ''God bless''; ''keep your head up, man,'' the boys say to the phone in the middle of the table.

''Stay out of trouble,'' it replies.

''We will.'' ''We'll try.''

''It's important,'' Williams says, and just then there is a clicking sound, and the line cuts out, and the drone of the dial tone fills the air.


Kimberley Sevcik is a writer based in New York. This is her first article for the magazine.


Copyright 2003 The New York Times Company | Home | Privacy Policy | Search | Corrections | Help | Back to Top

[Dj Pat]

"A.L.K.Q.N"
Im from the hood, that's all ive seen everyday but they where cool as hell with me!
Rico, serge, von, pete, mike, they gave me my respect.
Whatever they did, they did but they never braught it to me.
Maybe because my older brother was an O.U.V.L cheif that was cool with the L.K'S, So it wasnt any drama what so ever.
First cusin's or something like that, either way you look at it, respect is respect.
Peace.
Dj Pat
Physical Heat

[jcapeverde]

Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Say Leslie, Nicky Barnes is currently in the Witness protection program for the last few years, I think he was released from Fedtime/Jail around 1999/2000, After screaming(talking)on cats from back in the early 80's, I have a documentary on Nicky Barnes and a cat named Guy Fisher(Well-Known Drug Dealer from the Bronx who was crew with Nicky Barnes, But is currently doing fedtime for life at I think Lewisburg Federal Prison in Pennyslvania), And the Documentary shows Nicky Barnes going into the courtroom during his trial with a hood over his head(But cats knew it was him though)and testifying against those who were down with him and his crew and the mafia, the Documantary is called the Guy Fisher story, But Nicky Barnes is in the documentry alot.
Later
Mike Barnes Nicky had people here in Hempstead too back in the '70's and Joe Bonnano lived here in the '50s and '60s. Something I've learned; I have an old book named "In Old New York" which documents the rise of gangs from the Dead Rabbits to the modern Mafia here as shown in "Gangs of New York". The movie doesn't even mention the Tong Wars of the turn of the century which were described in the book & very bloody. One chapter is devoted to the Tongs and even mentioned the late Benny Ong, head of the New York Chinese underworld, who recently died. The book tells how some of the Chinese Tong customs were copied by and attributed to the Mafia.

[jcapeverde]

Originally posted by Leslie:
Very interesting indeed! When I was still working at Federal Court in Manhattan and they brought them in - it was a mad house. I was the one putting in all the indictments so I had to put in all their names and king and queen alias' as well as all the counts against them. I got so damn tired of seeing all that yellow and black.

Well I have to say those names where way easier than when they had the all out assault on the gangs in Chinatown - The Flying Dragons and the Ghostkillers, etc - not to discount the evilness of the LK and the stuff they did, but those Chinese gangs were NO DAMN JOKE either. They talk about black on black violence which is real the things they did to their own were something else! Do you mean the Ghost Shadows? If I remember correctly, the head was a guy named Nicky Louie. They worked at the behest of the Tongs and yes, they were no joke. The New York gangs of my teen years in the early 70s wreaked havoc also for years. The Black Spades, Reapers, Tomahawks, Ghetto Brothers, Savage Skulls, Peacemakers(of which I was a member)and others made news all the time. Playwright Miguel Pinero came out of the Dynamite Brothers; Felipe Luciano & Pablo Guzman from the Young Lords before they turned to activism.

[Mike Barnes]

Say Jcapeverde, Good lookin with the information money, Have you ever been to Nicky Barnes spot called Jigayzees Uptown back in the mid 70's my man, I went one time after hanging out at the Constellation(Dj Hollywood/Eddie Chebba rocking the spot)in 1976 or so, Crazy afterhours spot, I got there around 6:30am and the shit was rocking(Musically and otherwise), I never went back though(That shit just did not feel right being there), Joe Bonnano is one of the Pioneers in the Mafia hard, This cat(Joe Bonnano), Goes back with Lucky Luciano,Joe Profaci,Vito Genovese,Frank Costello, True old school Gangsters who helped put together the five Mafia Families in New York in the early 1930's, These cats were about money and organization to the fullest, You would get moved on(****ed up)if you came incorrect(The way it should be), These cats even had the utmost respect from Al Capone(Who originally's from Brooklyn, I guess that's why he was buckwild with his in Chicago)Say JCapeverde, Have you ever read 'The Valachi Paper's', By Peter Maas, The book covers the whole start of the Mafia in New York in the early 1920's to the 1960's(One of the best books on origanized crime ever to me), And, In reference to the street gangs in New York, I always felt that in the mid 70's in certain parts of New York, Gangs played out because cats found a better way to channel there energy in Basketball and music, Around my old way in Queens there were cats like the 7 crowns,Jolly stompers,Savage skulls, On the low, Alot of the cats who were down with Bam(Afrika Bambatta), And the Zulu Nation, Were memebers of different gangs in the Bronx(In fact Bam had a top position in the Black Skulls if i remember correctly/Ultra can verify this also), But cats in New York who were down with gangs just started to battle musically to see who was the best rocking parties rather than throwing joints(Fighting and Killing), I feel New York cats back then had leadership in the community that saw to it that gang members would go a different route and do positive things like Dj'ing, Mc'ing and graffeti, Basketball,Boxing, etc, Plus, around the mid 70's there were programs in the community that gave cats a chance to excell in different things, Like St.John's University and Fordham University had programs during the summers in the Mid to late 70's that reached out to the community with basketball,Baseball,Track and field,etc, With the Players and Coaches from the teams at St John's being the counselors(I met Lou Carnesacca at St John's in 1974/very nice guy),Riverside Church,Gauchos,Madison Square Boys Club,Brooklyn USA,Elmcor were just a few of the places cats went to play ball at back in the day, That was the reason alot of the gang acitivty played out in New York through the mid to late 70's, I know you come from the Island(Hempstead)so maybe there still was gang activity there, Also, Jcapverde, Do you know a cat named Henry Hollingsworth who used to play for Hofstra in the mid to late 70's(This brother was crazy nice), Also, Cats John Irving, Rich Laurel(Lead the nation in scoring i think in 1977 at Hofstra).
Later
Mike Barnes

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Just to add to the information about the Underworld(Mafia)that Leslie mentioned earlier in reference to cats screaming(Talking to the Feds)on one another, Joe Valachi was the first made(Down for life)cat in the underworld to scream on cats in the mafia in 1963, And that was because Vito Genovese(One of the most feared cats ever in the underworld), Had a contract out on his life while Joe Valachi was in prison in the early 60's, On the low, There has been a number of cats in the mafia that has screamed on others in the underworld since the years that Joe Valachi went before the Knapp Commission in 1963(Live on TV at that), Also, Nicky Barnes(Well-Known Drug Dealer from New York in the 70's)Screamed on the Mafia in the early 80's(Nicky Barnes was doing major Fedtime/Jail for Life in the late 70's, And Nicky Barnes was partners with a few cats in the Mafia who had big connections in the Government(Word)and with Columbian drug dealers in the early 70's to late 70's), Quiet as its kept, Cats have always been screaming on one another in the mafia for decades(That's why the Government setup the witness protection program in 1970, But because of safety and health concerns(Getting Moved on/****ed up for talking), The Government will not identify all of those who have come forward and cut a deal and sometimes the media will not know about alot of the cats either, But the streets will always talk though(LOL).
Later
Mike Barnes I remember seeing a documentary on the NY mafia hosted by Bill Curtis. They mentioned how cats like Joe Valachi down to Sammy "The Bull" Gravano have been snitches from within La Cosa Nostra. I didn't Nicky Barnes was a snitch. Is there any info about him in print or film?

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Say Jcapeverde, Good lookin with the information money, Have you ever been to Nicky Barnes spot called Jigayzees Uptown back in the mid 70's my man, I went one time after hanging out at the Constellation(Dj Hollywood/Eddie Chebba rocking the spot)in 1976 or so, Crazy afterhours spot, I got there around 6:30am and the shit was rocking(Musically and otherwise), I never went back though(That shit just did not feel right being there), Joe Bonnano is one of the Pioneers in the Mafia hard, This cat(Joe Bonnano), Goes back with Lucky Luciano,Joe Profaci,Vito Genovese,Frank Costello, True old school Gangsters who helped put together the five Mafia Families in New York in the early 1930's, These cats were about money and organization to the fullest, You would get moved on(****ed up)if you came incorrect(The way it should be), These cats even had the utmost respect from Al Capone(Who originally's from Brooklyn, I guess that's why he was buckwild with his in Chicago)Say JCapeverde, Have you ever read 'The Valachi Paper's', By Peter Maas, The book covers the whole start of the Mafia in New York in the early 1920's to the 1960's(One of the best books on origanized crime ever to me), And, In reference to the street gangs in New York, I always felt that in the mid 70's in certain parts of New York, Gangs played out because cats found a better way to channel there energy in Basketball and music, Around my old way in Queens there were cats like the 7 crowns,Jolly stompers,Savage skulls, On the low, Alot of the cats who were down with Bam(Afrika Bambatta), And the Zulu Nation, Were memebers of different gangs in the Bronx(In fact Bam had a top position in the Black Skulls if i remember correctly/Ultra can verify this also), But cats in New York who were down with gangs just started to battle musically to see who was the best rocking parties rather than throwing joints(Fighting and Killing), I feel New York cats back then had leadership in the community that saw to it that gang members would go a different route and do positive things like Dj'ing, Mc'ing and graffeti, Basketball,Boxing, etc, Plus, around the mid 70's there were programs in the community that gave cats a chance to excell in different things, Like St.John's University and Fordham University had programs during the summers in the Mid to late 70's that reached out to the community with basketball,Baseball,Track and field,etc, With the Players and Coaches from the teams at St John's being the counselors(I met Lou Carnesacca at St John's in 1974/very nice guy),Riverside Church,Gauchos,Madison Square Boys Club,Brooklyn USA,Elmcor were just a few of the places cats went to play ball at back in the day, That was the reason alot of the gang acitivty played out in New York through the mid to late 70's, I know you come from the Island(Hempstead)so maybe there still was gang activity there, Also, Jcapverde, Do you know a cat named Henry Hollingsworth who used to play for Hofstra in the mid to late 70's(This brother was crazy nice), Also, Cats John Irving, Rich Laurel(Lead the nation in scoring i think in 1977 at Hofstra).
Later
Mike Barnes Doesn't Joe Bonnano have a book out about the mob? I always thought Bambatta was a Black Spade (or maybe Black Skulls is the same thing).

[jcapeverde]

Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Say Jcapeverde, Good lookin with the information money, Have you ever been to Nicky Barnes spot called Jigayzees Uptown back in the mid 70's my man, I went one time after hanging out at the Constellation(Dj Hollywood/Eddie Chebba rocking the spot)in 1976 or so, Crazy afterhours spot, I got there around 6:30am and the shit was rocking(Musically and otherwise), I never went back though(That shit just did not feel right being there), Joe Bonnano is one of the Pioneers in the Mafia hard, This cat(Joe Bonnano), Goes back with Lucky Luciano,Joe Profaci,Vito Genovese,Frank Costello, True old school Gangsters who helped put together the five Mafia Families in New York in the early 1930's, These cats were about money and organization to the fullest, You would get moved on(****ed up)if you came incorrect(The way it should be), These cats even had the utmost respect from Al Capone(Who originally's from Brooklyn, I guess that's why he was buckwild with his in Chicago)Say JCapeverde, Have you ever read 'The Valachi Paper's', By Peter Maas, The book covers the whole start of the Mafia in New York in the early 1920's to the 1960's(One of the best books on origanized crime ever to me), And, In reference to the street gangs in New York, I always felt that in the mid 70's in certain parts of New York, Gangs played out because cats found a better way to channel there energy in Basketball and music, Around my old way in Queens there were cats like the 7 crowns,Jolly stompers,Savage skulls, On the low, Alot of the cats who were down with Bam(Afrika Bambatta), And the Zulu Nation, Were memebers of different gangs in the Bronx(In fact Bam had a top position in the Black Skulls if i remember correctly/Ultra can verify this also), But cats in New York who were down with gangs just started to battle musically to see who was the best rocking parties rather than throwing joints(Fighting and Killing), I feel New York cats back then had leadership in the community that saw to it that gang members would go a different route and do positive things like Dj'ing, Mc'ing and graffeti, Basketball,Boxing, etc, Plus, around the mid 70's there were programs in the community that gave cats a chance to excell in different things, Like St.John's University and Fordham University had programs during the summers in the Mid to late 70's that reached out to the community with basketball,Baseball,Track and field,etc, With the Players and Coaches from the teams at St John's being the counselors(I met Lou Carnesacca at St John's in 1974/very nice guy),Riverside Church,Gauchos,Madison Square Boys Club,Brooklyn USA,Elmcor were just a few of the places cats went to play ball at back in the day, That was the reason alot of the gang acitivty played out in New York through the mid to late 70's, I know you come from the Island(Hempstead)so maybe there still was gang activity there, Also, Jcapverde, Do you know a cat named Henry Hollingsworth who used to play for Hofstra in the mid to late 70's(This brother was crazy nice), Also, Cats John Irving, Rich Laurel(Lead the nation in scoring i think in 1977 at Hofstra).
Later
Mike Barnes My man has a half brother who was in the 7 Crowns back in the day. In my opinion, dope broke up the cliques. After initially being against dope, it became cool to sniff, skin pop and mainline. Nicky Barnes products such as "Raid", "Lights Out",and "light And Lively", became the new hobby instead of ball. Hey, look at The Goat & Pee Wee Kirkland. We looked up to them & what they did. I never went to that spot you talk about, but there was another joint run by a cat named Snooky that was wide open. By '76 I was in Nassau Community College and working & out of circulation with those types even I was still cool with the crew. Most of them bit the dust behind OD's or AIDS. I know some Hollingsworth's. They were from the Heights section of town. But I do know John Pitts, who played at Centenary with Rob Parish & who defeated Ernie Douse & Boys High in '71 at the old Hempstead High. We also beat Adrian Dantley & Dematha High that year. Did you play Biddy ball? Riverside Church, Stone Gym Youth Center(with Tony Lilly),Chapel of Intercession were some of the teams we played. Reggie Carter(Knicks), played for Elmcor later & went to Li Lutheran High(Where I played Freshman in '70),There were some fellas I know who played for Elmcor in the City Wide tournaments of that era. By the way, my brother in law is Tim Wooden who played backup center at Florida State a few years ago.

[ August 10, 2003, 04:12 PM: Message edited by: jcapeverde ]

[sammyrock]

Latin Kings chapter rules here in Tampa as well..I remember the Zulu Nation vs The Ballbusters war that went on in the 70s+80s.The good ol days of punches and pipes..now its 9mm and M-16 rifles..

[Mah'chew]

You in the US all need to rent yourselves a copy of The Cross and the Switchblade and have a nice cup of tea and a sit down - hand gestures and colors, please, next you'll be getting Soccer Hooligans like us Europeans... :D

[imported_Gman]

Man..back in the late 60's I used to live on 45th and Champagne in Chicago across from Forestville upper grade center. Our apartment building was right on the boundary between the Black Stone Rangers and the Disciples territories. Mofo's used to be fighting in front of our building what seemed like every week. Almost got shot by some fool with a zip gun who had bad aim. The bullet hit the fence right above my head. I hated being sent to the store because the gang bangers would be hanging out right in front waiting to take your money.

What ever happened to Jeff Ford ?

[jcapeverde]

Originally posted by djmarbll:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Say Jcapeverde, Good lookin with the information money, Have you ever been to Nicky Barnes spot called Jigayzees Uptown back in the mid 70's my man, I went one time after hanging out at the Constellation(Dj Hollywood/Eddie Chebba rocking the spot)in 1976 or so, Crazy afterhours spot, I got there around 6:30am and the shit was rocking(Musically and otherwise), I never went back though(That shit just did not feel right being there), Joe Bonnano is one of the Pioneers in the Mafia hard, This cat(Joe Bonnano), Goes back with Lucky Luciano,Joe Profaci,Vito Genovese,Frank Costello, True old school Gangsters who helped put together the five Mafia Families in New York in the early 1930's, These cats were about money and organization to the fullest, You would get moved on(****ed up)if you came incorrect(The way it should be), These cats even had the utmost respect from Al Capone(Who originally's from Brooklyn, I guess that's why he was buckwild with his in Chicago)Say JCapeverde, Have you ever read 'The Valachi Paper's', By Peter Maas, The book covers the whole start of the Mafia in New York in the early 1920's to the 1960's(One of the best books on origanized crime ever to me), And, In reference to the street gangs in New York, I always felt that in the mid 70's in certain parts of New York, Gangs played out because cats found a better way to channel there energy in Basketball and music, Around my old way in Queens there were cats like the 7 crowns,Jolly stompers,Savage skulls, On the low, Alot of the cats who were down with Bam(Afrika Bambatta), And the Zulu Nation, Were memebers of different gangs in the Bronx(In fact Bam had a top position in the Black Skulls if i remember correctly/Ultra can verify this also), But cats in New York who were down with gangs just started to battle musically to see who was the best rocking parties rather than throwing joints(Fighting and Killing), I feel New York cats back then had leadership in the community that saw to it that gang members would go a different route and do positive things like Dj'ing, Mc'ing and graffeti, Basketball,Boxing, etc, Plus, around the mid 70's there were programs in the community that gave cats a chance to excell in different things, Like St.John's University and Fordham University had programs during the summers in the Mid to late 70's that reached out to the community with basketball,Baseball,Track and field,etc, With the Players and Coaches from the teams at St John's being the counselors(I met Lou Carnesacca at St John's in 1974/very nice guy),Riverside Church,Gauchos,Madison Square Boys Club,Brooklyn USA,Elmcor were just a few of the places cats went to play ball at back in the day, That was the reason alot of the gang acitivty played out in New York through the mid to late 70's, I know you come from the Island(Hempstead)so maybe there still was gang activity there, Also, Jcapverde, Do you know a cat named Henry Hollingsworth who used to play for Hofstra in the mid to late 70's(This brother was crazy nice), Also, Cats John Irving, Rich Laurel(Lead the nation in scoring i think in 1977 at Hofstra).
Later
Mike Barnes Doesn't Joe Bonnano have a book out about the mob? I always thought Bambatta was a Black Spade (or maybe Black Skulls is the same thing). </font>[/QUOTE]You're right from what I've heard. he was a Black Spade; the Savage Skulls were another clique.One more thing Mike barnes left out. Nicky Barnes was allegedly put down with the Mob by Crazy Joe Gallo, who was wiped out while eating at a restaurant, for using Blacks in his operations. Joe Columbo was killed in broad daylight at an Italian American unity rally in '71 in Columbus Circle by a Black man. It was thought to be on the orders of Crazy Joe.

[mhd]

nicky barnes was definitely a snitch, Bam was a leader, the tomahawks were depicted in the movie: the education of sonny carson, the valachi papers was made into a movie with charles bronson, peter maas also wrote Serpico

[mhd]

Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Say Jcapeverde, Good lookin with the information money, Have you ever been to Nicky Barnes spot called Jigayzees Uptown back in the mid 70's my man, I went one time after hanging out at the Constellation(Dj Hollywood/Eddie Chebba rocking the spot)in 1976 or so, Crazy afterhours spot, I got there around 6:30am and the shit was rocking(Musically and otherwise), I never went back though(That shit just did not feel right being there), Joe Bonnano is one of the Pioneers in the Mafia hard, This cat(Joe Bonnano), Goes back with Lucky Luciano,Joe Profaci,Vito Genovese,Frank Costello, True old school Gangsters who helped put together the five Mafia Families in New York in the early 1930's, These cats were about money and organization to the fullest, You would get moved on(****ed up)if you came incorrect(The way it should be), These cats even had the utmost respect from Al Capone(Who originally's from Brooklyn, I guess that's why he was buckwild with his in Chicago)Say JCapeverde, Have you ever read 'The Valachi Paper's', By Peter Maas, The book covers the whole start of the Mafia in New York in the early 1920's to the 1960's(One of the best books on origanized crime ever to me), And, In reference to the street gangs in New York, I always felt that in the mid 70's in certain parts of New York, Gangs played out because cats found a better way to channel there energy in Basketball and music, Around my old way in Queens there were cats like the 7 crowns,Jolly stompers,Savage skulls, On the low, Alot of the cats who were down with Bam(Afrika Bambatta), And the Zulu Nation, Were memebers of different gangs in the Bronx(In fact Bam had a top position in the Black Skulls if i remember correctly/Ultra can verify this also), But cats in New York who were down with gangs just started to battle musically to see who was the best rocking parties rather than throwing joints(Fighting and Killing), I feel New York cats back then had leadership in the community that saw to it that gang members would go a different route and do positive things like Dj'ing, Mc'ing and graffeti, Basketball,Boxing, etc, Plus, around the mid 70's there were programs in the community that gave cats a chance to excell in different things, Like St.John's University and Fordham University had programs during the summers in the Mid to late 70's that reached out to the community with basketball,Baseball,Track and field,etc, With the Players and Coaches from the teams at St John's being the counselors(I met Lou Carnesacca at St John's in 1974/very nice guy),Riverside Church,Gauchos,Madison Square Boys Club,Brooklyn USA,Elmcor were just a few of the places cats went to play ball at back in the day, That was the reason alot of the gang acitivty played out in New York through the mid to late 70's, I know you come from the Island(Hempstead)so maybe there still was gang activity there, Also, Jcapverde, Do you know a cat named Henry Hollingsworth who used to play for Hofstra in the mid to late 70's(This brother was crazy nice), Also, Cats John Irving, Rich Laurel(Lead the nation in scoring i think in 1977 at Hofstra).
Later
Mike Barnes this is some serious history right here

[jcapeverde]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Say Jcapeverde, Good lookin with the information money, Have you ever been to Nicky Barnes spot called Jigayzees Uptown back in the mid 70's my man, I went one time after hanging out at the Constellation(Dj Hollywood/Eddie Chebba rocking the spot)in 1976 or so, Crazy afterhours spot, I got there around 6:30am and the shit was rocking(Musically and otherwise), I never went back though(That shit just did not feel right being there), Joe Bonnano is one of the Pioneers in the Mafia hard, This cat(Joe Bonnano), Goes back with Lucky Luciano,Joe Profaci,Vito Genovese,Frank Costello, True old school Gangsters who helped put together the five Mafia Families in New York in the early 1930's, These cats were about money and organization to the fullest, You would get moved on(****ed up)if you came incorrect(The way it should be), These cats even had the utmost respect from Al Capone(Who originally's from Brooklyn, I guess that's why he was buckwild with his in Chicago)Say JCapeverde, Have you ever read 'The Valachi Paper's', By Peter Maas, The book covers the whole start of the Mafia in New York in the early 1920's to the 1960's(One of the best books on origanized crime ever to me), And, In reference to the street gangs in New York, I always felt that in the mid 70's in certain parts of New York, Gangs played out because cats found a better way to channel there energy in Basketball and music, Around my old way in Queens there were cats like the 7 crowns,Jolly stompers,Savage skulls, On the low, Alot of the cats who were down with Bam(Afrika Bambatta), And the Zulu Nation, Were memebers of different gangs in the Bronx(In fact Bam had a top position in the Black Skulls if i remember correctly/Ultra can verify this also), But cats in New York who were down with gangs just started to battle musically to see who was the best rocking parties rather than throwing joints(Fighting and Killing), I feel New York cats back then had leadership in the community that saw to it that gang members would go a different route and do positive things like Dj'ing, Mc'ing and graffeti, Basketball,Boxing, etc, Plus, around the mid 70's there were programs in the community that gave cats a chance to excell in different things, Like St.John's University and Fordham University had programs during the summers in the Mid to late 70's that reached out to the community with basketball,Baseball,Track and field,etc, With the Players and Coaches from the teams at St John's being the counselors(I met Lou Carnesacca at St John's in 1974/very nice guy),Riverside Church,Gauchos,Madison Square Boys Club,Brooklyn USA,Elmcor were just a few of the places cats went to play ball at back in the day, That was the reason alot of the gang acitivty played out in New York through the mid to late 70's, I know you come from the Island(Hempstead)so maybe there still was gang activity there, Also, Jcapverde, Do you know a cat named Henry Hollingsworth who used to play for Hofstra in the mid to late 70's(This brother was crazy nice), Also, Cats John Irving, Rich Laurel(Lead the nation in scoring i think in 1977 at Hofstra).
Later
Mike Barnes this is some serious history right here </font>[/QUOTE]Here's more. Older family members told me that the local newspapers wrote about Joe Bonnano living in Hempstead & asked neighbors how they felt about it. They were quoted as saying they would rather live next to him than niggers. My older brother was a member of a local gang in the 50's named the Gorillas. I'm surprised Mike Barnes didn't mention the infamous gangs of the '50s, such as the Viceroys, Fordham Baldies ( I worked with a guy who was a member), Egyptian Kings, who had a notorious murder in the old San Juan Hill neighborhood(which West Side Story was based on & set the stage for the subsequent 20 year sentence in the similar "Cape Man" "Umbrella Man" killing) and probably the most famous gang of all time; The Chaplains. Two friends of mine had fathers who were Chaplains. I worked with yet another guy who was in the Mau Mau Chaplains of the early 70's. Now that's history! ;)

[mhd]

jcapeverde, bruh, you are bringing it! quiet as its kept, you are talking about the roots of this thing we call house

[Leslie]

Jcapeverde - CORRRECT and thanks for the correction on the name - the stuff I used to read in those indictments was something else. I think the most bizzarre things I saw during that time was when there was a takedown of one of the chinese gangs and one of the people they took down was this red haired, green eyed Irish dude who's name I still recall who spoke FLUENT Chinese, not sure of the dialect but pretty sure it was Fukinese. It was the most bizzarro thing. Another time there was a late arraignment on this young (as in 15) year old Pureto Rican kid who was in neck deep in one of the Chinese gangs - as he was finishing up signing his paperwork the AUSA (Assistant US Attorney) read this kid the riot act and basically told him you are getting a pass and a way out.

[Mack-Williams]

Originally posted by Gman:
.

What ever happened to Jeff Ford ? Jeff Fort - G. Here's a link.

http://www.uic.edu/orgs/kbc/ganghistory/UrbanCrisis/Blackstone/lance.htm

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by Mack-Williams:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Gman:
.

What ever happened to Jeff Ford ? Jeff Fort - G. Here's a link.

http://www.uic.edu/orgs/kbc/ganghistory/UrbanCrisis/Blackstone/lance.htm </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the corection Mack, nice article.

[Mike Barnes]

Say JCapeverde, Good lookin with the information money, Now, You mentioned the name Ernie Douse from Brooklyn(Boys High), Ernie Douse is my alltime favorite cat to ever lace them up(Play Basketball), I used to love to watch this brother play at IS8 Pro Tournament In Queens back in the 70's, Ernie Douse was way ahead of his time to me basketball wise and maybe he peaked to soon because the talent and knowledge of the game was there, If i remember correctly, Frank Mickens used to coach Ernie Douse at Boys High in 1971(Ernie Douse was one of the Alltime best to ever come out of New York(Along with Arnold Duggar from the Bronx(Clinton High School/Oral Roberts University in the Early to mid 70's), Ernie Douse made a bad decision going to Long Beach State with Jerry Tarkanian in the early 70's for a few before transferring to LIU in the mid 70's, Reggie Carter(Rip)is another cat i'm very familiar with from his days at the University of Hawwaii in the mid 70's then transfering to St.John's in the late 70's playing with my man Bernard Rencher from Mater Christi High School and Notre Dame), Reggie Carter is originally from Uptown(Harlem)and he used to play with Riverside Church(Ernie Lorch), Jcapeverde, The year your crew LI Lutheran played against Dematha and Adrian Dantly, Was Kenny Carr(Former alltime great at North Carolina State in the mid 70's)down with Dematha, To answer your question about me playing biddies, I used to play Biddies(Biddy Basketball),Midgits,Juniors,Seniors Division in leagues around the city, Like Elmcor(CityWide/Queens),Moringside Park Uptown(135th and Moringside Drive,Whitney M.Young in the Bronx,Riverside Church with Kenny Williamson(Eggman/Who used to be a Scout for the New York Knicks in the Late 90's, Though i heard he was cancelled from his position),Brevoort Tournament in Brooklyn,Etc, I most definitely remember Joe Columbo getting moved on(Shot up) at Columbus Circle in 1971, The cat who shot him didn't he(The shooter)get cancelled right on the spot also, Joe Gallo was Buck,Buckwild with his, And your right when you mentioned that he was well-known for putting Nicky Barnes on in the underworld scene going back to the late 60's/Early 70's(If i remember correctly they did Fedtime together), Wasn't Joe Gallo down with Carlo Gambino(Another old school Gangster who was very much feared in the mafia going back to the late 1930's to early 70's), Also, Good lookin with the information on the gangs in the 1950's, Most of the gangs that you mentioned i was unaware of.
Later
Mike Barnes

[ultra]

Peace luv...Bam was a Black Spade at Bronx River until 1973.


Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Say Jcapeverde, Good lookin with the information money, Have you ever been to Nicky Barnes spot called Jigayzees Uptown back in the mid 70's my man, I went one time after hanging out at the Constellation(Dj Hollywood/Eddie Chebba rocking the spot)in 1976 or so, Crazy afterhours spot, I got there around 6:30am and the shit was rocking(Musically and otherwise), I never went back though(That shit just did not feel right being there), Joe Bonnano is one of the Pioneers in the Mafia hard, This cat(Joe Bonnano), Goes back with Lucky Luciano,Joe Profaci,Vito Genovese,Frank Costello, True old school Gangsters who helped put together the five Mafia Families in New York in the early 1930's, These cats were about money and organization to the fullest, You would get moved on(****ed up)if you came incorrect(The way it should be), These cats even had the utmost respect from Al Capone(Who originally's from Brooklyn, I guess that's why he was buckwild with his in Chicago)Say JCapeverde, Have you ever read 'The Valachi Paper's', By Peter Maas, The book covers the whole start of the Mafia in New York in the early 1920's to the 1960's(One of the best books on origanized crime ever to me), And, In reference to the street gangs in New York, I always felt that in the mid 70's in certain parts of New York, Gangs played out because cats found a better way to channel there energy in Basketball and music, Around my old way in Queens there were cats like the 7 crowns,Jolly stompers,Savage skulls, On the low, Alot of the cats who were down with Bam(Afrika Bambatta), And the Zulu Nation, Were memebers of different gangs in the Bronx(In fact Bam had a top position in the Black Skulls if i remember correctly/Ultra can verify this also), But cats in New York who were down with gangs just started to battle musically to see who was the best rocking parties rather than throwing joints(Fighting and Killing), I feel New York cats back then had leadership in the community that saw to it that gang members would go a different route and do positive things like Dj'ing, Mc'ing and graffeti, Basketball,Boxing, etc, Plus, around the mid 70's there were programs in the community that gave cats a chance to excell in different things, Like St.John's University and Fordham University had programs during the summers in the Mid to late 70's that reached out to the community with basketball,Baseball,Track and field,etc, With the Players and Coaches from the teams at St John's being the counselors(I met Lou Carnesacca at St John's in 1974/very nice guy),Riverside Church,Gauchos,Madison Square Boys Club,Brooklyn USA,Elmcor were just a few of the places cats went to play ball at back in the day, That was the reason alot of the gang acitivty played out in New York through the mid to late 70's, I know you come from the Island(Hempstead)so maybe there still was gang activity there, Also, Jcapverde, Do you know a cat named Henry Hollingsworth who used to play for Hofstra in the mid to late 70's(This brother was crazy nice), Also, Cats John Irving, Rich Laurel(Lead the nation in scoring i think in 1977 at Hofstra).
Later
Mike Barnes

[mhd]

ultra, his "influence" extended way beyond 73 though, right?

[ultra]

No doubt. The first Zulu Nation members were Black Spades, of course, due to following.

The Zulu Nation still exists but on the low moreorless. There are still chapters around the world that are actually huge. Media coverage isn't huge, but it's still there here and there.

[Mocambo]

Originally posted by ultra:
No doubt. The first Zulu Nation members were Black Spades, of course, due to following.

The Zulu Nation still exists but on the low moreorless. There are still chapters around the world that are actually huge. Media coverage isn't huge, but it's still there here and there. Cashus D...............oops

I got love for the brother.

[ August 11, 2003, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Silhouette ]

[jcapeverde]

Originally posted by Mike Barnes:
Say JCapeverde, Good lookin with the information money, Now, You mentioned the name Ernie Douse from Brooklyn(Boys High), Ernie Douse is my alltime favorite cat to ever lace them up(Play Basketball), I used to love to watch this brother play at IS8 Pro Tournament In Queens back in the 70's, Ernie Douse was way ahead of his time to me basketball wise and maybe he peaked to soon because the talent and knowledge of the game was there, If i remember correctly, Frank Mickens used to coach Ernie Douse at Boys High in 1971(Ernie Douse was one of the Alltime best to ever come out of New York(Along with Arnold Duggar from the Bronx(Clinton High School/Oral Roberts University in the Early to mid 70's), Ernie Douse made a bad decision going to Long Beach State with Jerry Tarkanian in the early 70's for a few before transferring to LIU in the mid 70's, Reggie Carter(Rip)is another cat i'm very familiar with from his days at the University of Hawwaii in the mid 70's then transfering to St.John's in the late 70's playing with my man Bernard Rencher from Mater Christi High School and Notre Dame), Reggie Carter is originally from Uptown(Harlem)and he used to play with Riverside Church(Ernie Lorch), Jcapeverde, The year your crew LI Lutheran played against Dematha and Adrian Dantly, Was Kenny Carr(Former alltime great at North Carolina State in the mid 70's)down with Dematha, To answer your question about me playing biddies, I used to play Biddies(Biddy Basketball),Midgits,Juniors,Seniors Division in leagues around the city, Like Elmcor(CityWide/Queens),Moringside Park Uptown(135th and Moringside Drive,Whitney M.Young in the Bronx,Riverside Church with Kenny Williamson(Eggman/Who used to be a Scout for the New York Knicks in the Late 90's, Though i heard he was cancelled from his position),Brevoort Tournament in Brooklyn,Etc, I most definitely remember Joe Columbo getting moved on(Shot up) at Columbus Circle in 1971, The cat who shot him didn't he(The shooter)get cancelled right on the spot also, Joe Gallo was Buck,Buckwild with his, And your right when you mentioned that he was well-known for putting Nicky Barnes on in the underworld scene going back to the late 60's/Early 70's(If i remember correctly they did Fedtime together), Wasn't Joe Gallo down with Carlo Gambino(Another old school Gangster who was very much feared in the mafia going back to the late 1930's to early 70's), Also, Good lookin with the information on the gangs in the 1950's, Most of the gangs that you mentioned i was unaware of.
Later
Mike Barnes Damn Mike, like Robert Owens, you goin waaaayy back! You opened up the vaults of my memory like a muh fuh,bruh! Douse was definitely the shizit and we can't leave out Thomas Jefferson with Phil Sellers, Pete Davis & crew. Didn't Bernard Rencher play with Elmcor? And Rasheed Walker must be mentioned as well. Those were deinitely some B- Ballin days. You may remember my man Billy Holt from our Salvation Army team who used to regularly spank Uptown ballers. He's light skinned, bowlegged & has big pop out eyes. In later years, while shopping for Nicky's latest products, the workers remembered him & threw us freebies. Duane Smith from uptown also played for Lutheran (from Ben Franklin) and was mentioned the the Ball book, "The City Game". His brother Pat played pro in the 60's. I remember watching Douse on TV while at Long Beach State. Thomas Jeff's team was like a gang themselves. I was at the Southside,(Rockville Centre, with Beaver Smith who played for St John's)Thom Jeff game. They beat them when Phil missed a free throw. Their bench went wild & the building had to be evacuated! Ask some older cats in their late 50's, early 60's about the Chaplains. They were from Brooklyn and legendary. The Baldies were just as well known for their time. The movie "The Warriors" was made because of the headlines from all the gang activity of '69-'74. The David Susskind talk show of that time even featured some Skulls, Spades and Reapers on one episode.

[Mike Barnes]

Say Ultra, Good lookin on the 'Black Spades', Jcapeverde, Your right my man about Bernard Rencher playing for Elmcor(Cecil Watkins and Leroy Watkins used to run that program in Elmhurst,Queens in the 70's/80's), Bernard Rencher's from around the Elmhurst area originally, And, From what i understand, He(Bernard Rencher), Still sometimes plays with the cats from St.John's nowdays, Bernard Rencher is doing very well for himself in the resturant business, And he lives out on Long Island, Phil Sellers(Rutgers University)and Pete Davis( I think Pete Davis played for Central Michigan in the mid to late 70's), I remember very well, Phil Sellers was nice with his, and he did much work at Rutgers(Even though Rutgers got rocked by Michigan in the semi-Finals in 1976), But, On the low, Eddie Jordan(Former Rutgers Guard from the mid to late 70's/and Current head coach for the Washington Bullets), Put Tom Young(Former Head coach at Rutgers in the 70's)down as an assistant coach with the Washington Bullets(Which is very good to see). I remember your man Duane Smith being mentioned in the 'City Game', by Pete Axthlem(Rip), Beaver Smith from St.John's is another cat i remember from way back in the 70's, Beaver Smith used to play with Frankie Alagia(Little lefthanded cat who played in the Backcourt for St.John's in the mid 70's), In fact, Frankie Alagia(Very nice cat who knows the science/the Game)was my first Counselor at St.John's summer program back in 1974, George Johnson(Former St.John's great/Milwaukee Bucks in the early 80's)Was another cat that was very helpful to cats back in the day with information and instruction on how to play the game the right way, Do you remember Ron Rutledge(Former assistant coach at St.Johns in the 80's/90's), Ron Rutledge used to Ref(Referee)at Montibello Park in Springfield Gardens Queens(On Springfield Blvd)for Elmcor CityWide Games in the 70's, Ron Rutledge is currently in the Adminstration Department at St.John's since Fran Frishsella stepped in the late 90's.
Later
Mike Barnes