View Full Version : War, just for the record...
I'm being misunderstood. I absolutely loath the fact that this country is at war AGAIN.
The plain simple truth is, this adminstration has f*cked up this country. It is right back where it was when the current president's father was in office, i.e., screwed economy, and at war.
I think where I'm losing everyone is with my position that if one is going to fight, then fight to win. EVEN IF YOU ARE WRONG, fight to win.
TAC
Leslie
03-24-2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by TAC:
I'm being misunderstood. I absolutely loath the fact that this country is at war AGAIN.
The plain simple truth is, this adminstration has f*cked up this country. It is right back where it was when the current president's father was in office, i.e., screwed economy, and at war.
I think where I'm losing everyone is with my position that if one is going to fight, then fight to win. EVEN IF YOU ARE WRONG, fight to win.
TAC You've clarified to a point. What exactly are we "winning", what is the zero sum in this game..what is the prize?
Originally posted by Leslie:
what is the prize? OIL.
jurren
03-24-2003, 09:49 AM
Originally posted by TAC:
The plain simple truth is, this adminstration has f*cked up this country. It is right back where it was when the current president's father was in office, i.e., screwed economy, and at war. in all fairness; i don't think the bush administration is to blame for the economic depression, lost jobs etc. that's just the cycle of economics. the entire world is either allready facing depression or allready deep in it.
michael more made the same argument about jobs lost eversince bush came into the whitehouse, but it's not fair blaming all this on bush or his party.
as for winning at all cost; i'm afraid i'll have to agree. now that it's started there's no turning back. starting this war, and not finishing it is probably going to cause an even bigger dissaster. i can only hope that my fears don't come true.
jurren
[ March 24, 2003, 09:52 AM: Message edited by: jurren ]
Originally posted by jurren:
michael more made the same argument about jobs lost eversince bush came into the whitehouse, but it's not fair blaming all this on bush or his party.
jurren Politics....its all politics... Your point is taken.
[ March 24, 2003, 09:51 AM: Message edited by: TAC ]
Leslie
03-24-2003, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Albert D.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Leslie:
what is the prize? OIL. </font>[/QUOTE]Not arguing with you on that, we all ready have a shit load of it up in Alaska, butI get it, why drill our own when we can pilliage another country's supply - you are right, duh on my part.
GROOVE VICTIM
03-24-2003, 10:00 AM
One of the reasons why we can't get all of the oil up in Alaska is because of the enviromentalists who don't want the habitat destroyed. Bush already signed document a few years ago allowing the authorization of drilling in those regions of Alaska.
Peace
tac, does that also mean you accept (since it's logical to go all the way and fight 'till total victory) that the US is goin' to confront (in a military way) other Middle East countries, once Iraq has fallen ?
peace
GROOVE VICTIM
03-24-2003, 10:13 AM
Lyot, it's inevitable that we are going to invade these other countries within that region. We got a long road ahead of us.
Peace
for the record, drilling for oil in alaska is a disaster
D J 1 3 8
03-24-2003, 10:16 AM
For the record, the U.S. gets most of its oil from Mexico and Venezuela, not the middle east.
for the record, the us is in the process of undermining democracy in venezuela, as we speak
Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
Lyot, it's inevitable that we are going to invade these other countries within that region. We got a long road ahead of us.
Peace i concurr that it is indeed (part of) the strategy, Groove Victim..I just refrain from believing this issue is best solved by military means. Aren't the US supposed to win the minds of the people of these countries..How is massive war to be reconciled with that idea ? I doubt that people in the Arab world are not goin' to be comforted by this show of American imperialism. In the end, what you are figthing isn't countries/territories, but ideas.
peace
Originally posted by DJ 138:
For the record, the U.S. gets most of its oil from Mexico and Venezuela, not the middle east. Wrong! The U.S., believe it or not, gets most of it's oil from Canada and Saudi Arabia, then it would be Mexico and Venezuela.
Originally posted by Albert D.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
For the record, the U.S. gets most of its oil from Mexico and Venezuela, not the middle east. Wrong! The U.S., believe it or not, gets most of it's oil from Canada and Saudi Arabia, then it would be Mexico and Venezuela. </font>[/QUOTE]Followed by Nigeria :eek:
Originally posted by TAC:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Albert D.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
For the record, the U.S. gets most of its oil from Mexico and Venezuela, not the middle east. Wrong! The U.S., believe it or not, gets most of it's oil from Canada and Saudi Arabia, then it would be Mexico and Venezuela. </font>[/QUOTE]Followed by Nigeria :eek: </font>[/QUOTE]correctamundo! smokin.gif
djmarbll
03-24-2003, 02:16 PM
However, Eurasia has the largest untapped oil supply in the world. To get there we have to go through Iraq, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbeckistan. Unocal Oil Company was the lead player in building a pipeline that goes through Eurasia. Eurasia is all the territory east of Germany. This means Russia, the Middle East, China, and parts of India. Russia and China, bordering oil-rich Asia, are the two main powers threatening US hegemony in that area.
Zbigniew Brzezinski pionted this out in 1997 in a Council on Foreign Relations study called 'The Grand Chessboard: American Primacy and its Geostrategic Imperatives'. Ironically, Unocal was in negotiation with the infamous Taliban going back to 1996. By 1999 the negotiations went sour because of the arrival of Osama as a warrior for Allah. At the time the US was covertly aligning itself with those in the Russian gov't calling for military action against Afghanistan. But Bin-Laden was kept under strict surveillance for years: every phone call was monitered and Al-Qaeda had been penetrated by US intelligence. So 9/11 wasn't some covert freak accident. It took years of planning.
Nevertheless, this war is going on basically to eliminate Saddam and put in a puppet gov't that will allow the US to go into untapped oil reserves in Eurasia. Some of the puppet gov't is already in place in Afghanistan. Hamed Karzai is a former oil executive at Chevron. The truth is stranger than fiction.
mdpm99
03-24-2003, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
One of the reasons why we can't get all of the oil up in Alaska is because of the enviromentalists who don't want the habitat destroyed. Bush already signed document a few years ago allowing the authorization of drilling in those regions of Alaska.
Peace I believe that it did not pass the Senate, - last week
d
[ March 24, 2003, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]
Chemistry
03-24-2003, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by david mancuso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
One of the reasons why we can't get all of the oil up in Alaska is because of the enviromentalists who don't want the habitat destroyed. Bush already signed document a few years ago allowing the authorization of drilling in those regions of Alaska.
Peace I believe that it did not pass the Senate, - last week </font>[/QUOTE]Senate Rejects Drilling in Alaska Refuge
By Helen Dewar
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, March 19, 2003; 3:56 PM
The Republican-controlled Senate narrowly rejected President Bush's proposal to open Alaska's Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR) to oil drilling today as his GOP allies scrambled to fend off a bipartisan challenge to his proposal for another round of big tax cuts.
The 52-48 vote against a key element of Bush's energy program came despite GOP hopes that the likely onset of war with Iraq over the next few days would reinforce arguments for domestic energy production to help reduce U.S. dependence on foreign oil.
But eight Republicans joined all but five Democrats in opposing inclusion of a go-ahead for the long-controversial Alaska drilling project in the congressional budget for next year under parliamentary rules that bar filibusters.
As part of the budget, it would take only a simple majority, or 51 votes, to approve drilling. But, without the protection of budget rules, foes could block action on the proposal by a filibuster, which would take 60 votes to break -- a near impossibility in light of the Senate's close division on the issue.
A proposal to allow drilling in the refuge was defeated last year by a filibuster. Republicans picked up a few votes for ANWR drilling in last November's elections, enough to narrow the margin but not to change the outcome.
Still pending was a proposal by moderates of both parties to cut Bush's proposed "economic growth" tax cut of $726 billion by half. Senators said they expected the vote to be close on the proposal, which would limit the tax cut to $350 billion. But it was not clear whether any of the tax-cut alternatives had a majority at this point.
The fight over drilling in the wildlife refuge has been raging for years, with proponents arguing it has up to 16 billion barrels of oil ready to be drilled for U.S. consumption while opponents say it would likely produce far less oil at an incalculable cost to a pristine area filled with caribou, polar bears and a wide array of other wildlife.
The Senate Budget Committee's GOP majority attempted to make ANWR a budget matter -- and thereby filibuster-proof -- by including roughly $2 billion in anticipated revenues from bidding on leases for drilling rights in its version of Congress' budget resolution for fiscal 2004.
Democrats contended this was nothing more than "parliamentary sleight-of-hand," as Daschle put it, to give Republicans a better chance of passing a proposal that could not pass on its own.
But the real debate was, as it has been all along, over two national priorities that are often at odds: energy production and environmental protection.
By banning drilling in the refuge, the U.S. is denying "our own resources . . . for our own security," said Sen. Conrad Burns (R-Mont.). Like other drilling advocates, he contended that the refuge would not be damaged by oil and gas production. "It's land we can take care of and still use the resources," Burns said.
But Democrats argued that any benefits were far outweighed by the costs. "We cannot sit silently by while the administration promoted a short-sighted strategy that mortgages one of our most previous and irreplaceable wild spaces for several months supply of oil," said Sen. Thomas A. Daschle (D-S.D.)
It was unclear whether drilling advocates may attempt to revive the proposal in a conference with the House, whose budget resolution has no specific reference to the Alaska refuge. But Sen. Ted Stevens (R-Alaska), the leading drilling proponent in the Senate, said he will never give up. "It's never decided until we win," Stevens said shortly before the vote.
© 2003 The Washington Post Company
Chemistry, thanks for the link
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