another dark day in belgium...

[Jacques de Doozu]

vlaams blok (conservative, racist party) going up in the elections. agalev (green party) losing votes, mainly due to backstabbing of others (my opinion). sad. are people that stupid? more and more this world is turning in a direction that i totally disprove of. mad1.gif

[Mah'chew]

I've just seen the reports on BBC World, the far-right party had some ex-model on there saying it was okay for foreign people to come to Belgium but if they wanted to live there they needed to learn to speak Flemish, they would also need to learn about Belgium culture and history. Aparently there's a lot of support in or around Antwerp for this particular party. I also learnt tat Belgium currently run with an 8 party coelition in order to keep this party out, but this time they could edge some seats...

[sr hadden]

There isn't really an 8 party coalition, all parties just individually agree to the principle of the 'cordon sanitaire' which means that each party will never form a coalition with the negativistic Vlaams Blok. The existing coalition now is socialism, liberalism plus the green party, the so called purple-green coalition.

The green party was basically slaughtered out today, so probably the next coalition will be just purple, being the liberal blue ones and the socialist reds, these last ones being the major recipient of the green votes.

The Vlaams Blok is a party from and for the malcontent, and a lot of people in Belgium are basically just too stupid to resist falling into such behaviour. It's all good is an absurd expression for them. They don't believe in a multi-cultural society, they just don't believe in anything not completely homogenous.
They're crazy.

peace

[lyot]

yeah, it's a sad day in the history of the green party, which I supported as well.. It seems they are going to be almost completely thrown out of parliament ...Vlaams Blok is , for the 10th election in a row, growing stronger..They are nothing more then wolves disguised as sheep..It's scary...

At least the Socialists are the big winners of these elections..I hope they make something out of it now..

graemlins/all_coholic.gif graemlins/all_coholic.gif graemlins/all_coholic.gif graemlins/all_coholic.gif graemlins/all_coholic.gif graemlins/all_coholic.gif

[Bold Soul]

My empathies. :(

[MarkK]

I am not sure I see what is wrong with that statement (on its own). To have immigrants learn about the culture and language of where they are immigrating?



Originally posted by Mathius:
I've just seen the reports on BBC World, the far-right party had some ex-model on there saying it was okay for foreign people to come to Belgium but if they wanted to live there they needed to learn to speak Flemish, they would also need to learn about Belgium culture and history. Aparently there's a lot of support in or around Antwerp for this particular party. I also learnt tat Belgium currently run with an 8 party coelition in order to keep this party out, but this time they could edge some seats...

[lyot]

Originally posted by MarkK:
I am not sure I see what is wrong with that statement (on its own). To have immigrants learn about the culture and language of where they are immigrating?


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mathius:
I've just seen the reports on BBC World, the far-right party had some ex-model on there saying it was okay for foreign people to come to Belgium but if they wanted to live there they needed to learn to speak Flemish, they would also need to learn about Belgium culture and history. Aparently there's a lot of support in or around Antwerp for this particular party. I also learnt tat Belgium currently run with an 8 party coelition in order to keep this party out, but this time they could edge some seats... </font>[/QUOTE]hey mark,

nothing wrong with that statement, but it's not very informative about the real nature of this party..Most of it's hardcore party members and leaders are racist and, I do not even have any doubt to use the word, facist.. The qualification you read there is not a correct assesment of the policy this party stands for. They problem with Vlaams Blok is that have become 'salonfähig' like they call it in German..Over the years, they have veiled their rough and sharp program points, in order to appeal to the larger masses..

greetings,

[Jolyon]

Following on from what Mark said...

A few years ago I was on holiday in Spain and I met an English couple in their 40s who had been living on the Costa Del for the last 10 years or so. After a few drinks I asked them why they had left England and they admitted that they had left England because they thought it was being over-run with immigrants who were making no effort to adapt to the 'British way of life'.

This couple lived in a compound full of other English people, drank in an English theme pub, read English newspapers, watched English TV, spoke only English (with the exception of a few bar/restaurant phrases) and all their friends in the pub were English.

The irony seemed to be lost on them...

People who go to live in another country and make no attempt to learn or discover anything about their new home are missing out...but then again how can you 'force' people.

[sr hadden]

you're right, the 'traditional' Vlaams Blok voter finds it offensive that a lot of people of the large immigrant population don't make an effort to learn at least the language of the people of Belgium.

But actually it is only a very very small minority of the first generation immigrants who still only speak their native tongue. The Blok voter is actually completely ignorant about the arabic culture as well, and doesn't want to make an effort towards their culture either, or for that matter, accept the fact they have a right to live here. The slogan of the Vlaams blok is 'Eigen Volk Eerst' which would translate to German to 'Unsere eigenen Leute zuerst SCHEISSE VERDAMMT!'

peace

[elkuhn]

I'm especially sickened by the fact that they are threated like a normal party...they get a lot of media attention...any exposure is good for them - we should, like in the netherlands, create a media silince around these fascists ! their hidden agenda is something all those rednecks are stupid to see....pffff

[2121]

Maybe its not racism. Many people view new immigrants as (a) taking away jobs and lowering equilibrium wages, (b) distorting the political system, (c) destroying the local culture and (d) costing the taxpayers a lot of money (for language education, healh care, etc.) Please note that I'm not advocating these parties, only looking to see the issues from there point of view. Ever heard of keeping your enemies close?

There are many parties like this one in the world, with most rapidly gaining popularity.

[sr hadden]

Yeah, well , that's nationalism for you, it's a bitch.

peace

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by 2121:
Maybe its not racism. Many people view new immigrants as (a) taking away jobs and lowering equilibrium wages, (b) distorting the political system, (c) destroying the local culture and (d) costing the taxpayers a lot of money (for language education, healh care, etc.) Please note that I'm not advocating these parties, only looking to see the issues from there point of view. Ever heard of keeping your enemies close?

There are many parties like this one in the world, with most rapidly gaining popularity. No one complains until after the jobs are already gone and the political system has already failed the people.

That is the root of fascism - blame without rationale.

[Red D]

I think it's all a bit more complex. 'Vlaams Blok' (literally 'Flemish Front') started out as a protest party with cheap and easy-for-the-masses slogans working on the general anti-politics attitude of the blue collar workers. All democratic parties had but one item from that day forth, to crush the rise of this party by calling them non-democratic, racist, fascist, etc. This had the reverse effect of giving Vlaams Blok even more credibility amongst their voters, they were and are the outcast and underdog of Belgian politics (the Dutch-speaking part that is, Flanders to be exact).
In that position they have now steadily been growing stronger up to the point where 1 out of 5 voters are on their side. Not being allowed by the other parties to govern (an agreement between the other parties made in 1991, the 'cordon sanitaire) they could keep on working on their outcast image and have succeeded in being regarded as just another party by making their slogans and actions less aggressive. They've been a big party now for 15 years, and have never really done anything wrong in the eyes of the people because they never had to govern. Like with all things people are now used to them.
So the mistake has been made in the very beginning and the parties are now faced with a huge problem: can you call yourself democratic and continue to ignore a party that represents 20% of the voters? As much as I dislike their ideas I say no. If we keep on denying them the nightmare scenario is that they could well end up being the biggest party one day, and what then?

The city of Ghent has shown the way imo, they listened to what was bothering the people and made an effort to make improvements for the common man (security, garbage, traffic, etc), the result being that Ghent is the only city in which Vlaams Blok lost voters (- 1.7% or so).

Vlaams Blok is a party that has to be fought locally and regionally, because their voters don't care about national politics and politics in general, they care about their neighbourhood. I hope parties start seeing that before it's too late.

RD

[ardi]

Originally posted by Red D:
So the mistake has been made in the very beginning and the parties are now faced with a huge problem: can you call yourself democratic and continue to ignore a party that represents 20% of the voters? As much as I dislike their ideas I say no. If we keep on denying them the nightmare scenario is that they could well end up being the biggest party one day, and what then?

RD yep, if other parties are claiming to be progressive they have to show it at least by trying to listen and debate in a more mature way, other than just being haters. We're losing our democracy more and more by each election. I'm most def not a pro 'Vlaams Blok', but a dialogue should at least be considered as an option.

[David Le C]

IMO it wasn't that bad yesterday, sure the Blok won a couple of votes, but their victory is hardly worth mentioning compared to the socialists (my crew). The green party took severe blows and they didn't deserve that beating, but i followed them rather closely during their governing period and well, they surely didn't make a good impression... I mean, why openly critizising laws that you voted? That's playing in favor of the opposition, not to mention that it's an absurd contradiction...
The good news IMO is that through the massive growth of the socialist party, the Blok falls back one place and is now the 4th biggest instead of the 3rd in Flanders...
I see a red-blue government working more effectively without the greens, especially now the Reds have more weight to put in... and effectiveness is a weak point for Vlaams Blok voters, so maybe that will diminish their rise...

Just my 2 cents

[djklas]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
Following on from what Mark said...

A few years ago I was on holiday in Spain and I met an English couple in their 40s who had been living on the Costa Del for the last 10 years or so. After a few drinks I asked them why they had left England and they admitted that they had left England because they thought it was being over-run with immigrants who were making no effort to adapt to the 'British way of life'.

This couple lived in a compound full of other English people, drank in an English theme pub, read English newspapers, watched English TV, spoke only English (with the exception of a few bar/restaurant phrases) and all their friends in the pub were English.

The irony seemed to be lost on them...
graemlins/rofl.gif

[djklas]

sounds like having a split between too many parties allows for these guys to actually pull out some wins... maybe there should be some sort of interparty coalition against these Vlaams Blok guys?

[Monny JcIntosh]

Originally posted by 2121:
Maybe its not racism. Many people view new immigrants as (a) taking away jobs and lowering equilibrium wages, (b) distorting the political system, (c) destroying the local culture and (d) costing the taxpayers a lot of money (for language education, healh care, etc.) Please note that I'm not advocating these parties, only looking to see the issues from there point of view. Ever heard of keeping your enemies close?

There are many parties like this one in the world, with most rapidly gaining popularity. What Bold Soul said. UK immigration policy persistently treats a symptom (increasing numbers of asylum applications) instead of a root failure of policy. A menial employment vacuum, to take one of the prime causes, becomes "them" taking all "our" jobs. Handy political rhetoric but lazy and dangerous if you actually want to fix anything. Unfortunately it's no longer an extremist rhetoric - in order to stop the spread of the nationalists we've got to "address the problems they raise", i.e. use the same lazy means to stay in power - and down the line what's the difference between the BNP and David Blunkett if they sing from the same hymn sheet?

[ngeso]

Originally posted by Mathius:
I've just seen the reports on BBC World, the far-right party had some ex-model on there saying it was okay for foreign people to come to Belgium but if they wanted to live there they needed to learn to speak Flemish, they would also need to learn about Belgium culture and history. Aparently there's a lot of support in or around Antwerp for this particular party. I also learnt tat Belgium currently run with an 8 party coelition in order to keep this party out, but this time they could edge some seats... a phenomenon, that is running across basically all of Europe. most Europeans view integration as a one-way-street and expect immigrants to shed themselves of virtually all of their personal cultural and historical traits. it goes further: they expect immigants to 'shed' their hereditary/biological personae as well - that, of course, being nigh on impossible to achieve.

a lot of Europeans equate the influence of immigrant culture to the dilution of their own culture. they mostly see a loss, and rarely perceive the immense gain that comes with immigration (this BTW in contrast to immigration theory(!)the US). instead of absorbing new influences, many Europeans, through establishment and elected representation, continue to sideline immigrant livelihood to the periphery, until these people get rid of their faith, disown their history and speak the language properly.

Europe is definetly shifting to the right, and for the long run.

peace. ngeso.

[lyot]

Originally posted by Red D:
I think it's all a bit more complex. 'Vlaams Blok' (literally 'Flemish Front') started out as a protest party with cheap and easy-for-the-masses slogans working on the general anti-politics attitude of the blue collar workers. All democratic parties had but one item from that day forth, to crush the rise of this party by calling them non-democratic, racist, fascist, etc. This had the reverse effect of giving Vlaams Blok even more credibility amongst their voters, they were and are the outcast and underdog of Belgian politics (the Dutch-speaking part that is, Flanders to be exact).
In that position they have now steadily been growing stronger up to the point where 1 out of 5 voters are on their side. Not being allowed by the other parties to govern (an agreement between the other parties made in 1991, the 'cordon sanitaire) they could keep on working on their outcast image and have succeeded in being regarded as just another party by making their slogans and actions less aggressive. They've been a big party now for 15 years, and have never really done anything wrong in the eyes of the people because they never had to govern. Like with all things people are now used to them.
So the mistake has been made in the very beginning and the parties are now faced with a huge problem: can you call yourself democratic and continue to ignore a party that represents 20% of the voters? As much as I dislike their ideas I say no. If we keep on denying them the nightmare scenario is that they could well end up being the biggest party one day, and what then?

The city of Ghent has shown the way imo, they listened to what was bothering the people and made an effort to make improvements for the common man (security, garbage, traffic, etc), the result being that Ghent is the only city in which Vlaams Blok lost voters (- 1.7% or so).

Vlaams Blok is a party that has to be fought locally and regionally, because their voters don't care about national politics and politics in general, they care about their neighbourhood. I hope parties start seeing that before it's too late.

RD Hey Bart ,

Let's develop this is a bit more..I'm not sure i agree with everything you say..First of all, Vlaams Blok did not start so much as a protest party..Back in the days, in the late seventies, it's leader was Karel Dillen and his main aim with the Vlaams Blok was to make Flanders an independent state. Flemish nationalism is the first and foremast basis of this party..From the start onwards it has been made very clear this Flemish nationalism is defined in a very exclusive way..It's not the French type of State-nationalism we are talking about here but the German Volks-nationalism (Blut und Bodem) .. Their policy reflected a blatant racist and xenophobist view upon society and it's citizens from foreign descent..This by the way is still powerfully reflected in their slogan 'Eigen Volk Eerst'. Untill 1991 and even after the year of the breakthrough they didn't even bothered to conceil their racist way of thinking..Only with the arrival of policital succes, they slowly adapted another strateg and started playing on more general feelings of un-easyness in society..I agree with you that there has been made a mistake in 1991. Not only in 1991, by the way, also in 2003 there has been made a big mistake..But that mistake has not been to call them what they are : racists and xenophobist..(because they obviously are)The mistake has been that from the beginning onwards this party has not been forbidden..And the mistake has been that even in 2003 the judicial branch has not dared to rule the party a racist party in the trial we've seen a couple of months ago..

Neither do I think the cordon sanitaire has been a strategic mistake. The cordon sanitaire has been misunderstood and miscommunicated, and those are tactical mistakes, but in itself, the cordon sanitaire was the only healhty strategy that could have been adopted. All in all, it's a very basic agreement: it says that you do not govern in a coalition with the Vlaams Blok..You do not govern with people who are racist and want an exclusive policy based on Blut und Bodem...There is nothing wrong or undemocratic about that point of view..Excluding a party that cherishes ideas that threaten the most basic democratic rules should be a given..

Communicating this basic idea seems to have been difficult, but I think it is wrong to put the blame solely on politicians

As a matter of fact, i'm not really sure what's the main suggestion you are trying to make ? Lifting the cordon sanitaire ?

Also, I think it's a big mistake, and one that's unfortunately very well exploited by the Vlaams Blok, to think that excluding the party from power is actually the same as refusing to deal with the issues the party raises..As a matter of fact, the last ten years, the Vlaams Blok has most definitly been able to push to the forefront a whole bunch of issues (immigrants, asylum, security issue, ...) Politicians are dealing with these issues, and in general, one could say that there's been a shift to the right in the last decade.

Vlaams Blok is a party that thrives on negativity..There will always be negativity in a society..Governing implies making choices.. Vlaams Blok are masters of exploiting the negativsm in society..

I refuse to see them as one of the bunch..They should be excluded in every possible way..It's sickening to see how the VRT has shown them to the public as 'one of the esthablished' parties..On the whole, it's the lack of political interest in society that has brought the Vlaams Blok into the position where they are right now. People themselves are to be blamed in the first place, but the media play a role as well..Everything has become so superficial..Where's the real debate ? I do not think there's a lot we can do, or that things are going to change soon..Populism is the way to succes, that's now more clear then ever (in a way I'm happy we've got Stevaert,because he is the only one able to deal with the Vlaams Blok..But on the other hand, it's like Mortier says : his bashing on intellectuals is a dangerous evolution)..

Good governement like in Gent is a way to stop Vlaams Blok..A good communication policy is another ..And like I said, in a way it's good to have someone like Steve Stevaert who has a clear appeal to the common man..If he hadn't been there, i think the Vlaams Blok would have been the one celebrating bigtime yesterday..

greetings,

[sr hadden]

Originally posted by ngeso:
a phenomenon, that is running across basically all of Europe. most Europeans view integration as a one-way-street and expect immigrants to shed themselves of virtually all of their personal cultural and historical traits. it goes further: they expect immigants to 'shed' their hereditary/biological personae as well - that, of course, being nigh on impossible to achieve.


Europe is definetly shifting to the right, and for the long run.

peace. ngeso. Of course it's not MOST europeans, but a MINORITY of europeans, however this minority grows and grows, but is basically only directed towards non-european union immigrants ( this is a euphemism for arabic & african immigrants, because all things white & yellow are regarded dangerless )

So what it always boils down to is a fear to mingle with arabic culture ... due to a lack of dialogue .. here in belgium a gigantic riot in the arab community took place when some mental patient shot an arab youth... I thought at least now the community problems were too obvious and ON the table too sweep under the rug, but the whole event got pinned down to how much the self procclaimed leader of the arabic community , Dyab Abouh Jah-Jah, would benefit from this situation.

Matters calmed down after the whole of Belgium demonised mister Jah-Jah. News shifted from the riots to the investigation of mister Jah-Jah and his Arabic-European League, suddenly it wasn't important anymore the one million arabs in the country were disgruntled, the important thing was to get to know just what mister Jah-Jah was up to... There exists an enormous lack of will to communicate between the communities ..

No trust, so no respect, fear, anger ... the dark side

peace

[ May 19, 2003, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: sr hadden ]

[Red D]

True dat. I know Vlaams Blok started out as purely a Flemish Nationalist party, but they came to the political forefront after the famous 1991 elections where they asked for and received the protest votes.
I believe that right there and then they became aware of the fact that if they hid their racist nature that they could continue to grow, and indeed right there is where the other parties should have used any means necessary to stop and dismantle them.
The 'cordon sanitaire' may have seemed the right decision, but it was and is the cowardly decision that just conveniently kept them on the sideline, and thus formed the basis of their past and current success. And imo it is now too late to turn that back and it would be blatantly undemocratic to just ignore 1 out of 5 voters.
Not ignoring can be done in two ways, the one nobody here really wants is to let them have a shot at government (albeit just on a city level next year) and the other logical route is to really tackle the problems that led people to vote for them. In that respect I do agree that their points of attention have been brought to the forefront but they have not been dealt with properly, apart from Ghent, with the known results.
Steve Stevaert, although a populist is a blessing for Belgian politics, and I'm not afraid of his bashing of intellectuals because he is surrounded by very competent intellectuals in his own party (Vandenbroucke, Janssens amongst others) which will keep him on track.
In the long run I do believe that the combination of the equality-vision of red with the freedom and individualism of blue is the best possible thing for Belgium, provided the red side ads enough 'green' to their policies.

My worries are next year's 'Flemish' elections, where Vlaams Blok could very well be the big winner if the other parties continue to place their best people in the federal government. One can only hope that red&blue use the short interval between the two elections to the fullest even if this means throwing some 'candy' at the people (i.e. free public transport).

RD

[ngeso]

Originally posted by sr hadden:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ngeso:
a phenomenon, that is running across basically all of Europe. most Europeans view integration as a one-way-street and expect immigrants to shed themselves of virtually all of their personal cultural and historical traits. it goes further: they expect immigants to 'shed' their hereditary/biological personae as well - that, of course, being nigh on impossible to achieve.


Europe is definetly shifting to the right, and for the long run.

peace. ngeso. Of course it's not MOST europeans, but a MINORITY of europeans, however this minority grows and grows, but is basically only directed towards non-european union immigrants ( this is a euphemism for arabic & african immigrants, because all things white & yellow are regarded dangerless )

So what it always boils down to is a fear to mingle with arabic culture ... due to a lack of dialogue .. here in belgium a gigantic riot in the arab community took place when some mental patient shot an arab youth... I thought at least now the community problems were too obvious and ON the table too sweep under the rug, but the whole event got pinned down to how much the self procclaimed leader of the arabic community , Dyab Abouh Jah-Jah, would benefit from this situation.

Matters calmed down after the whole of Belgium demonised mister Jah-Jah. News shifted from the riots to the investigation of mister Jah-Jah and his Arabic-European League, suddenly it wasn't important anymore the one million arabs in the country were disgruntled, the important thing was to get to know just what mister Jah-Jah was up to... There exists an enormous lack of will to communicate between the communities ..

No trust, so no respect, fear, anger ... the dark side

peace </font>[/QUOTE]i'm aware of my generalization.

with 'most europeans' i'm actually taking a fat stab at a large section of people with means and allround-access to education, possession and political expression, who are very liberal upfront, and rarely raise a voice or finger to maintain that liberalism. a lot of not-knowing, ignorance and patronizing, and often it comes right out of the universities.

i never feared the far right, the political hools, the nazi-skins, because i don't view them as the primary problem. in Europe it is the people at the next table, munching that kebab and planning that 4-week all-inclusive holiday to Tunesia, that will ultimately get you beaten up or chucked out.

again, broadest-sense generalization and opinion on my part. i have a lot of arguments with the people around me about this, and it is always a delicate thing to see detail and big picture at the same time.

peace. ngeso.

[RX]

Originally posted by lyot:
Their policy reflected a blatant racist and xenophobist view upon society and it's citizens from foreign descent..This by the way is still powerfully reflected in their slogan 'Eigen Volk Eerst'. what does the slogan mean in english?

from what i'm reading, it seems as if the "cordon sanitaire" is similar to parents banning their child from dating the "horrible player"...won't the child go date the player just to see what would happen...out of curiousity...to rebel against its parents? does the "cordon sanitaire" translate into the government not trusting its people to make their own decision or the government absolutely not wavering its stance regarding the likes of V. Blok?


this is extremely interesting to me, by the way...we don't get enough effective coverage here...

[David Le C]

Ms Rickey, 'Eigen volk eerst!' means as much as "Our own people first!"...
Now, I'm still a firm believer of the cordon sanitaire, letting these people govern to show everybody how incapable they are is bullshit IMO, it's a waste of time, tax money and overall development...
The cordon should be enforced in a strict matter and not only by political parties, the Blok receives way too much media coverage for what they actually have to say, and without this exagurrated coverage, probably to get some extra ratings for their shows, many of the now Vlaams Blok voters will change their votes... the common man is still firmly influenced by what he sees on his tele.
And yes Red, maybe ignoring one out of five voters is undemocratic but I doubt that more than 10 percent of the Blok voters knows what they have voted for...they just see some big mouth on national tele being rude to conventional politicians, and of course they love that shit.
So my point is that if you ignore 20 percent of the voters with a strong, informed opinion; than that would be wrong... now it's just a bunch of sheep whose political views go no further than their own street and the problems there, to ignore these media-victims seems not like a bad idea to me...

[sr hadden]

Originally posted by Ms Rickey X:

from what i'm reading, it seems as if the "cordon sanitaire" is similar to parents banning their child from dating the "horrible player"...won't the child go date the player just to see what would happen...out of curiousity...to rebel against its parents?

this is extremely interesting to me, by the way...we don't get enough effective coverage here... the comparison doesn't work, because there aren't three parties here : not a child, a bad player and the parents, just a bunch of kids and one of them stinks. Nobody is curious to govern together with the vlaams blok, nobody wants to.

BTW Red, the christian-democrats represent more than 20 percent of the voter public too, nobody starts crying it's a shame that part of the voter population is ignored. Whenever a coalition is formed there are always about 50 % of the people being ignored. I don't mind ignoring any Blok voter. Anybody who wants to give the Vlaams Blok an actual shot at governing is out of his mind. They are scum and simply don't deserve their hands on any part of the steering wheel. The Blok isn't conservative, it's damn right regressive. Just imagine the Blok being able to uphold their negative facadery to the neighbouring countries and nations as well. Anyway, I believe their medieval nationalistic spirit will grow frustrated, wither and die from a lack of attention ...

peace

[ May 19, 2003, 09:24 AM: Message edited by: sr hadden ]

[sr hadden]

woops

[ May 19, 2003, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: sr hadden ]

[ardi]

how much i would hate Vlaams Blok, they still are a political party in the first place with a historical background that goes back to the flemish roots we all have.
Thinking of a flemish independent state is quite irrelevant when you see Belgium in a bigger perspective (Europe). Still, there are other hot-items that need to be considered on a micro-basis (safety, high speed driving, farmers and their rights). I think that Vlaams Blok pointed those problems, but are giving the wrong solutions.
It is an obligation to vote, so you can't blame the people that don't know what they're voting for. Wether they want to be interested in politics or not, once in a time the have to vote. The common sense people are not interested in detailed solutions and stuff. They want to hear words like 'we want safety', 'farmers do have rights and they are the biggest supply of food', ...
If they don't know what they're voting for, than blame the media, who didn't give the right and clear information. Or blame the other parties, who didn't listen or didn't debate on a mature basis. When a party is left out of any discussion, left out of any other newscover, how would the people know what they have to say.

I can understand people voting for Vlaams-Blok (and it has not too much to do with an independent flemish state), but with a will to hear what others don't want to say in those words (and that is not only 'eigen volk eerst')

Agalev was in a way as much as an extremist party as Vlaams Blok.

I think that VB deserves some honest treatment, other than just ignoring them and hating on them.

my colors are blue, so don't shoot me of being a racist or something. Just trying to be honest and respectful. biggrinangel.gif

[sr hadden]

Originally posted by ardi:

Agalev was in a way as much as an extremist party as Vlaams Blok. yeah right. I was really afraid of all those greens trying to bio-feed me to death .... Man those some mean vegetarians yo.


Originally posted by ardi:

I think that VB deserves some honest treatment, other than just ignoring them and hating on them.
biggrinangel.gif And that's of course because The Blok is so honest themselves. Their propaganda is truly a school for normal politicians in how to be honest. The things you are saying just proves that the Blok in all aspects is really starting to resemble a normal democratic party. It's okay to bash on the Blok Ardi. don't be afraid.

peace

[sr hadden]

everyone, here is the site of our national pride , they have an english version of the site, so check it out, it's really funny

http://www.vlaamsblok.be/

[lyot]

Originally posted by ardi:
[QB] how much i would hate Vlaams Blok, they still are a political party in the first place with a historical background that goes back to the flemish roots we all have.
Thinking of a flemish independent state is quite irrelevant when you see Belgium in a bigger perspective (Europe).
hey ardi,

Althoug I myself do not really feel very nationalistic about my roots, I have no problem at all with the fact that Belgium is divided in three communities, and that Flemish nationalism ( of course I mean not the Vlaams Blok kind of nationalism) has been a strong political force that guided the gradual federalization of our country. I think Flanders
has a firm place in a "Europe of the regions", and is not even to be considered irrelevant.. Flanders as a region and a community is a good realisation in itself..




Still, there are other hot-items that need to be considered on a micro-basis (safety, high speed driving, farmers and their rights). I think that Vlaams Blok pointed those problems, but are giving the wrong solutions.

they indeed managed to push a bunch of topics on the table . But the way they managed to do this often was a very dangerous one..If they would have done it in a positive way , I would be talking different now..Yet, the mechanisms that are applied are in a sense facist or a least facist under a disguise..Their strategy consists of undermining the sense that politics can be something 'good'..Or let's say 'positive'..The whole image they give of the Flemish politics is that it's a all rotten and that only their party will be able to restore a kind of order that's acceptable..Like Red D mentionned before, in combination with the fact they were excluded from power, and were not able to burn themselves, that they could grow and keep their imagive of 'pure political party'.. Yet, in most of the issues, the solution they proposed is irrelevant. It's not about solving the issues, yet it is about enforcing a certain way of stigmatising politicians of the esthablishment..They know they will not be let to power (yet) , so the solutions they propose aren't what's really important in their strategy..Those solutions can't be 'tested' anyway, and will be given by a lot of people the advantage of the doubt..What really is important and key in their strategy is discrediting the vested politicians.. It happens in a more covert way then before, because they know they need to be more subtile to apply to more voters, but in a sense, it has always been and it still is the politics of negativsm..People do not see that in the end it's nothing more the a big soap-bubble..
They do not see that the party just 'recovers' their un-happiness and uses it for its self profit..What I clearly want to say is this : it's not the people who are pro- cordon sanitair who are the real haters in society.. The real haters in society are the negativist who are voting for the Vlaams Blok..Because they get lured in through negativsm, while ignoring that the Vlaams Blok doesn't propose any positive solution. Exclusion, in my book, can never be a positive solution..

About the democracy I want to add, that I do not think that being 'democratic' has anything to do with ignoring (or not ignoring) 20% of the voters..In a democratic system, the people vote and then they are ruled by a majority . That's the basic assumption of a democracy..To hell with the fact that 20% of all Belgians wants to instore limits on the rights of foreigners or people from foreign origins..If 80% of the Belgians (i.e all the Belgian parties) wish to exclude the Vlaams Blok from governing, i do not see anything in that that's anti-democratic..On the contrary, I would say that it's a very democratic decision..Democracy has nothing to do with being just, or whatever.




It is an obligation to vote, so you can't blame the people that don't know what they're voting for. Wether they want to be interested in politics or not, once in a time the have to vote. The common sense people are not interested in detailed solutions and stuff. They want to hear words like 'we want safety', 'farmers do have rights and they are the biggest supply of food', ...
If they don't know what they're voting for, than blame the media, who didn't give the right and clear information. Or blame the other parties, who didn't listen or didn't debate on a mature basis. When a party is left out of any discussion, left out of any other newscover, how would the people know what they have to say.

Hmm, it's difficult issue , but I think that in the end everyone is responsible to a great extent for his own way of thinking..Isn't that a very liberal point of view of mine ? ;) Can you blame the media because they do not provide enough information ? You could twist that around and say that the media only bring what the people ask for ..Contemporary media outlets are commercial businesses who need to make money in the first place..The VRT for instance has a contract that says the need to make sure they reach a certain % of the population..They do not need to make good shows or documentarie,no no.. That's not the basic assumption of the contract..I think in that respect, politicians themselves are cutting in their own hand..They are partly responsible for the fact our society and it's media are getting more and more superficial. Subsidizing cultural outlets is a good thing, but television is the main source of information of millions and millions of people.. And do you think it's a coïncidence that Vlaams Blok has gone up and the quality of Flemish journalism (on TV) has gone down the drain? I think it's at least enforcing the position of the Vlaams Blok, and then i'm even very eufemistic. smile.gif



I can understand people voting for Vlaams-Blok (and it has not too much to do with an independent flemish state), but with a will to hear what others don't want to say in those words (and that is not only 'eigen volk eerst')
there are prolly several types of Vlaams Blok voters.. But most of them are, imho , defined by a certain negativsm..Negativsm about contemporary society.. Lot's of people are lost, or are not 'in' any more..Things are just going to fast for a big group of people.. Then it's always very easy to lay the blame with 'the Other'..(whether is a politician, it's a migrant or whatever) ..Things are going wrong in this country, but the solve issues is through positive action, not by 'blaming' someone or something, like Vlaams Blok is specialised in..





Agalev was in a way as much as an extremist party as Vlaams Blok.
hmm, why would you think that Ardi ? I honestly do not see why you see things like that.. I know the Green party has a communication problem, but I wouldn't have thought it was that bad.. :D




I think that VB deserves some honest treatment, other than just ignoring them and hating on them.
i would like to refer what I said above, about the real haters and negativists. Treating Vlaams Blok honestly is exposing the truth about their racist and xenophobist roots . One should respect the people , even if they are mestkevers, yet, I have not in a single bit any respect for their ideas or what they stand for..


greetings, I gotta run but hope to find some time to expand more.. I didn't get any work done here, damned.. smile.gif

laters,

[dVine]

lyot, ardi, that's some great discussion. graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[elkuhn]

I will never vote for VB, but I know some friends who did vote for them, they are fooled into believing it's not a racist party. Some of my 'friends' (people at the gym I work out a lot) told me that they voted VB but didnt want it to govern, they just want the other parties to have some balls and stand up to the issues that VB is so good at pointing out...

For me, I remember the speaches Mr Dewinter and co did back in the days, I don't believe his 'newfound democratic nature' ....it reminds me a bit of the movie 'the sum of all fears' where this right wing party activist is giving a speach, trying to come across as democratic as possible, meanwhile they zoom on his watch that is on the stand (or however that's called) and u can see that on the back of the watch there is a 'swastika'(think its called that in english right ?) engraved...I would love to hear what REALLY goes on in the closed meetings of the VB top hotshots....the words 'Anslusch mit den Heimat' come to mind AR15firing.gif

[DJ76]

Interesting topic.

Can someone tell us what is the history between the french and the flemish. From what I understand, Belgium was first mostly flemish (and I believe is still the majority of the population) and the french speaking population was somehow (please describe when and how) superficially transposed in Belgium and gained political points. Now I got all this from a Dutch man who lived in Antwerp for several years and that is pro-separation. He also mentionned that Bruxelles is flemish, not french (and I'm feeling that this is like a Jerusalem type of conflict where both sides claim it theirs).

Coming from Quebec, it's always interesting to hear arguments about separation, I have a roommate from Catalogna and they have their share of problems with the spanish authorities.

RE: FOREIGNERS INTEGRATING... I think that as a basic thing, one should try to integrate into the country they are living in, but without forgetting his or her roots. Speaking of which, I have to seriously start learning dutch ;) I have learned more Bosnian than dutch so far, due to my work, eh he.

Peace.
Alex

[Jacques de Doozu]

Originally posted by elkuhn:
I will never vote for VB, but I know some friends who did vote for them, they are fooled into believing it's not a racist party. Some of my 'friends' (people at the gym I work out a lot) told me that they voted VB but didnt want it to govern, they just want the other parties to have some balls and stand up to the issues that VB is so good at pointing out...

For me, I remember the speaches Mr Dewinter and co did back in the days, I don't believe his 'newfound democratic nature' ....it reminds me a bit of the movie 'the sum of all fears' where this right wing party activist is giving a speach, trying to come across as democratic as possible, meanwhile they zoom on his watch that is on the stand (or however that's called) and u can see that on the back of the watch there is a 'swastika'(think its called that in english right ?) engraved...I would love to hear what REALLY goes on in the closed meetings of the VB top hotshots....the words 'Anslusch mit den Heimat' come to mind AR15firing.gif vlaams blok have schools around mechelen where they train dogs and militants for protests.
however, this is not the real danger. brutal force is nothing compared to extreme fascist ideas disguised under a 'democratic' sauce.
i mostly agree with lyot on this one. vb has used the media to gain votes, by 'softening' their fascist program and playing the mistreated child. on the other hand cd&v has done the same thing, by acting like an irritating kid, constantly complaining about this and that. all the others have done the same. stevaert and anciaux sitting on a bench, smiling to the voter, acting like cozy family men...
the same forces are used but in a different way. difficult for them to attack vb on that, when they do the same thing.
people are forgetting that this thing is al about blatant power over people. politicians want the satisfy the underlying structures of their party first, then the people.

[dVine]

Originally posted by DJ76:
Interesting topic.

Coming from Quebec, it's always interesting to hear arguments about separation, I have a roommate from Catalogna and they have their share of problems with the spanish authorities.

Alex WHat's your view of QUebec separation, in a nutshell, if you don't mind my asking.

[DJ76]

Originally posted by dVine:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ76:
Interesting topic.

Coming from Quebec, it's always interesting to hear arguments about separation, I have a roommate from Catalogna and they have their share of problems with the spanish authorities.

Alex WHat's your view of QUebec separation, in a nutshell, if you don't mind my asking. </font>[/QUOTE]To be very honest with you, I haven't been following the latest arguments of the separatist movement, but its earlier arguments have been easily defeated.

When they get into the historical debates that the brits beat the french, etc... and that this is their land, it goes as far as Milosevic claiming that Kosovo is Serbian and refers to a battle lost in 1389. It doesn't have any weight in today's world.

When they get into the economic aspect of things, it just gets even worst because it is all based on pure speculation. But a new country on the international market usually struggles for a while, and with the recession Quebec and Canada went through in the 90s, I don't know too many people ready to sacrifice their future and wealth.

They also argue about the taxation system, etc.

In certain aspects, they might have good arguments but they are not the only ones complaining, many other provinces in Canada complain about a bunch of related issues. They just don't have the good will to sit down and honestly negociate.

There were two constitutional rounds in 1990 and 1992. They failed when the parties involved put their personal interest and feelings before the general interest of the population, mainly being egotestical, etc.

The rivalry gets even more funny when you look at the fact that the french speaking population is divised within Quebec. Some are for and others are against separation. Anglophones are mostly against, and the others (non french nor english background) are mostly against separation).

My point of view is that Canada is a VERY young country, its constitution dates back to 1867. In 136 years, I think the country has done a lot and is pretty much recognized and well seen in the international community. The internal problems, although serious, aren't as bad as in most countries in the world. Canada needs to renegociate the constitution and have a fair share of decision-making powers between the federal and the provincial.

Honestly, I'm not very patriotic in any way, I find it silly to feel "proud" to belong to a certain group of people, I just enjoy the fact that I live(d) there (I'm currently in the Netherlands), but I'll never be 'in love' with such or such country just because.... add pointless patriotic theme here. Sure, Canada's a beautiful country, so is Morocco, so is Lebanon, so is France and so is Holland. I have lived in these 5 countries and can see the pros and the cons of each. But frankly, having borders, divisions and all the other crap that comes with frontiers doesn't make sense to me. Maybe "Europe of the regions" is an answer, although I haven't studied it thoroughly. Each region has its own identity, does it mean we need to draw more borders? Recognizing one population as distinc is one thing, asking to draw more borders is another.

One thing that is important in all this is culture. Quebec is french, french is a beautiful language that must be preserved. I actually feel that by independent, french will be a little bit more at the mercy of Quebec's anglophone neighbours, where it is well protected within the Canadian constitution. French is not at risk at the moment, not within the actual framework.
Actually, by "leaving" Canada, what are the chances that more Canadians learn french? There are many folks in Western Canada and in Ontario learning french and I believe that the very existence of Quebec within the Canadian federation has something to do with it. This "influence" might not be as strong in a Canada without Quebec.

My 2 cents.
AD.

[Red D]

Originally posted by DJ76:
Interesting topic.

Can someone tell us what is the history between the french and the flemish. From what I understand, Belgium was first mostly flemish (and I believe is still the majority of the population) and the french speaking population was somehow (please describe when and how) superficially transposed in Belgium and gained political points. Now I got all this from a Dutch man who lived in Antwerp for several years and that is pro-separation. He also mentionned that Bruxelles is flemish, not french (and I'm feeling that this is like a Jerusalem type of conflict where both sides claim it theirs).

Peace.
Alex Utter BS is what your Dutch man told you graemlins/cussing.gif Belgium is kinda an artificial country, where two groups of people became one country. The major thing that probably united Belgium was the historic occupation by both French and Dutch armies throughout the history of our regions.
Linguistically and historically I do believe that the Flemish part (Dutch-speaking) and the Walloon part (French-speaking) belong to The Netherlands and France respectively, but both regions were kinda treated like the poor, weak kid in the bunch and gained independence in 1830. Most of the leaders and the intellectuals spoke French (even in Flanders) and it has only been because of various 'soft' revolting that Flemish culture came into the full spotlight and earned equal rights. The army was strictly French-speaking for a very long time, as were Universities and government institutions. Even now intellectual and aristocratic circles do uphold French as their main language, but officially Belgium is bilingual.
Brussels is a different story, it has been claimed by both sides on numerous occasions, but in actual fact the main language in Brussels is French, as is the majority of the population unless I'm very much mistaken. A lot of suburbs are Flemish (Brussels consists of 19 'villages') but the core of Brussels is French.
To ad to the mess Belgium received some German territory after WWII and these people have equal language rights and a voice in the parliament as well.
Belgian politics is a right old mess, with each part of Belgian having its own government (including Brussels...) and a federal government above that. More and more things are decided on a regional level and slowly Belgium is turning into a federation instead of a unified country.

This may seem very dramatic, but 95% of the people in Belgium don't care too much about all this and apart from the odd fistfight there isn't any violence concerning this at all.

Belgian heads, feel free to correct me, I'm not a historian and don't really care about nationality and cultural heritage, I consider myself an 'earthling', that's the only thing I can't deny :D

RD

[Red D]

some more scholar facts (I totally forgot the Spaniards and the religion thingy...)

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/destinations/europe/belgium/history.htm

RD

[ardi]

after that Begium was being formed as an effective country in 1830, the flemish-minded people were supported by most french speaking belgians (in first instance by intellectuals and clericals). They supported those flemish minded people in order to repress the frustrated frenchmen. Writers and poets were pioneers in being flemish-nationalistic (e.g. H. Conscience, G. Gezelle). However they were flemish nationalistic, they saw Belgium in a bigger context: Europe (e.g. A. Vermeylen who wrote an essay 'we have to become flemish people in order to be European', wrote it in de late 1890's) The trouble began with the World Wars. When the 'European dream' was broken. Resistance in those wars, making the university of Gent flemish, collaborating during those wars was the direct cause of relating flemish nationalistic with extreme right minded. The artist and poets did their job well, and knew what they were saying, war was the cause of misunderstanding and abusing those ideologies.

ardi