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Leslie
11-10-2003, 09:01 AM
November 9, 2003
OP-ED COLUMNIST
The Humiliation Factor
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

If President Bush wants to get a better handle on the problems he's facing in Iraq and the West Bank, I suggest he study the speech made Oct. 16 by Malaysia's departing prime minister, Mahathir Mohamad, to a conclave of Muslim leaders. Most of that speech was a brutally frank look into the causes of the Muslim world's decline. Though it was also laced with shameful anti-Jewish slurs, it was still revealing. Five times he referred to Muslims as humiliated. If I've learned one thing covering world affairs, it's this: The single most underappreciated force in international relations is humiliation.

"I will not enumerate the instances of our humiliation," Mr. Mahathir said. "We are all Muslims. We are all oppressed. We are all being humiliated. . . . Today we, the whole Muslim [community], are treated with contempt and dishonor. . . . There is a feeling of hopelessness among the Muslim countries and their people. They feel that they can do nothing right." He added: "Our only reaction is to become more and more angry. Angry people cannot think properly."

One reason Yasir Arafat rejected the Clinton plan for a Palestinian state was that he and many followers didn't want a state handed to them by the U.S. or Israel. That would be "humiliating." They wanted to win it in blood and fire. Hezbollah TV had bombarded Palestinians with stories of how the Lebanese drove the Israelis out. Palestinian militants wanted the "dignity" of doing the same.

Always remember, the Arab-Israeli conflict is about both borders and Nobel Prizes. It's about where the dividing line should be and it's about the humiliation that comes from one side succeeding at modernity and the other not. As Mr. Mahathir says in his speech, "We sacrifice lives unnecessarily, achieving nothing other than to attract more massive retaliation and humiliation. [But] we are up against a people who think. [The Jews] survived 2,000 years of pogroms not by hitting back, but by thinking. . . . We cannot fight them through brawn alone. We must use our brains also."

Which is why the Palestinians need both their own state and a new leadership able to build their dignity on achievements, not resistance.

Ditto Iraq. Why have the U.S. forces never gotten the ovation they expected for liberating Iraq from Saddam's tyranny? In part, it is because many Iraqis feel humiliated that they didn't liberate themselves, and America's presence, even its aid, reminds them of that. Add the daily slights and miscommunications that come with any occupation, and even the best-intended liberators will wear out their welcome over time. I was with my Iraqi translator one day in Baghdad, trying to enter the office of the Governing Council. The American private security guard at the door ordered me to shut my mouth until I was told to speak. Then he told my translator to sit in the 130-degree heat while he escorted me — the American — inside to see if the Iraqi leader we were seeing was available. Both of us felt like punching that guard in the face.

"Iraq is full of angry men," Mustafa Alrawi, managing editor of Iraq Today, wrote in Beirut's Daily Star. "For example, in the area unfairly labeled as the `Sunni triangle,' the population was badly hurt by the decision to disband the army and the policy of de-Baathification. . . . Thousands of men, many of whom took pride in their rank and status, were left bewildered and confused. It must be remembered that the army . . . did not fight the U.S. invasion, effectively giving their stamp of approval to the plan to topple Saddam Hussein. They have wounded pride to restore. Entire tribes feel embarrassed that they supported the invasion, only to be left out in the cold by the coalition's myopic vision of how Iraq should be run."

Never, ever underestimate a people's pride, no matter how broken they might be. It is very easy for Iraqis to hate Saddam and resent America for overstaying. Tap into people's dignity and they will do anything for you. Ignore it, and they won't lift a finger. Which is why a Pakistani friend tells me that what the U.S. needs most in Iraq is a strategy of "dehumiliation and re-dignification."

The only way we'll foster a decent government in Iraq is if every day we turn a little more power over to Iraqis and create the economic conditions where Iraqis can be successful. The more we empower Iraqis, the less humiliated they will feel, the more time we will have to help them and the less they will need our help.


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mdpm99
11-10-2003, 11:13 AM
Greetings Leslie:

Hope your day is a great one.....

I agree in that the Iraq people's have rented out Iraq under Saddam and now the U.S.....now is time that they have their own country back.

d

Leslie
11-10-2003, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by david mancuso:
Greetings Leslie:

Hope your day is a great one.....

I agree in that the Iraq people's have rented out Iraq under Saddam and now the U.S.....now is time that they have their own country back.

d Thanks David, having a nice day and hope you are too. Same with Afghanistan, people have to be able to self determine the course of their own countries. To echo the piece, never underestimate people's pride no matter how down they are - you'd think we get the hint from the Palestinian people. As my Father used to say to me growing up, our govt is just hard headed.

[ November 10, 2003, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Leslie ]

kara
11-10-2003, 01:21 PM
it's typical US foreign development/assistance mentality

we decide and we do as we want about other people and places

Bold Soul
11-10-2003, 01:24 PM
The Times brings it when they want to, don't they?!

Wow Les...this was extreme! Thank you!

lyot
11-10-2003, 01:39 PM
I would argue that it was an explicit objective of the US governement to raise fear and decrease hope with the Middle East populations and governements..The US governement knew the hate was gonna rise, but as long this is accompagnied by a increase in the fear and a decrease in the hope that the US could be driven home, the US governement was willing to accept that...

Of course, I think there's a perception problem right now, as the US is clearly not able to drive home the idea that they are unvincible..On the contrary, the last couple of weeks must have given great hope to all the fundi's in the Middle East..

The US tactic now seems to be that they are dealing with the Iraq rebellion as a kind of a side issue, in the bigger scheme of M.E events.. I'm curious to see how this is gonna end..I agree the biggest mistake Bremer has made was dismanteling the Iraqi army.. That was a capital mistake..yet, I don't think that it's possible at this moment to hand Iraq back to the Iraqi's..It would immediately lead to a large scale civil war.. And I assume the US should take the responsability to avoid that..

greetings

Monny JcIntosh
11-10-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by lyot:

I don't think that it's possible at this moment to hand Iraq back to the Iraqi's..It would immediately lead to a large scale civil war.. And I assume the US should take the responsability to avoid that..
This is not mentioned enough.

mdpm99
11-10-2003, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lyot:

I don't think that it's possible at this moment to hand Iraq back to the Iraqi's..It would immediately lead to a large scale civil war.. And I assume the US should take the responsability to avoid that..
This is not mentioned enough. </font>[/QUOTE]Greetings Jonny McIntosh:

IMHO:

As long as Bu$h is running the show than I am afraid that this "nation building 101" is in for a long haul.....Vietnam all over again.

This should be an international coalition (a real one) to mend these fences.

Have a great day!

smile.gif

d

Monny JcIntosh
11-10-2003, 02:05 PM
David - this nation building doesn't look much like preparation for handing back power to me, either. I hope we, the US and UK, can bear the responsibility for the mess we've created.

Time for my tea, read you later. ;)

lyot
11-10-2003, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by david mancuso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by lyot:

I don't think that it's possible at this moment to hand Iraq back to the Iraqi's..It would immediately lead to a large scale civil war.. And I assume the US should take the responsability to avoid that..
This is not mentioned enough. </font>[/QUOTE]Greetings Jonny McIntosh:

IMHO:

As long as Bu$h is running the show than I am afraid that this "nation building 101" is in for a long haul.....Vietnam all over again.

This should be an international coalition (a real one) to mend these fences.

Have a great day!

smile.gif

d </font>[/QUOTE]There must be a negative correlation between the US Army's effectiveness and the ability of the Us governement to do reconstruction and nation building.. It's in my eyes, totally unbelievable, there's not been done more efforts upfront to plan everything from a to z, in a contigent way..I guess that's a part of the Hubris of the US goverenment, or should I call it plain stupidity ? Whatever the case, the fact is that even with an international community, you are not gonna get things calmed down..On the contrary, it's not gonna help one single bit if you get even more different countries in who would deliver soldiers and peacekeepers..It can only lead to a more fractured policy and actions on the ground..The US governement should hope that it can catch Saddam as soon as possible..Isn't it startling to see they still haven't got the guy after so many months of searching..Only last weeks they decided to form a special task force (Task Force 121 if I'm correct) to go hunt after Saddam in a more organised way then they did before.. A couple of weeks ago ???? Damn, there so many things that have this smell of amateurism and I don't get that..

greetings

Leslie
11-10-2003, 02:17 PM
Lyot imagine how you'd feel if you were paying for all this....

Cheddar
11-10-2003, 02:21 PM
As long as the international community believes that the USA is not acting on interests exclusive to the USA, then there will be no support for the reconstruction cause. Our administration is on it's own (armed with OUR money).

lyot
11-10-2003, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Leslie:
Lyot imagine how you'd feel if you were paying for all this.... as a matter of fact, i'm also paying for this, but it's true that what i'm paying is only a tiny fraction of what you guys are paying..To be totally honest, I wouldn't even mind paying more if it could help..I don't have any problem with the rest of the world (read UN) taking more financial responsability (there were some good steps taken three weeks ago in Madrid, the reconstruction & donor congress) as long as the US in essence carries the military burden..

Leslie, I think the US public was totally misinformed about what this would cost the tax payer, but that in itself can not be a reason to quit now..Of course it hurts and these funds could have been used for more stressing problems, like social security, welfare, education,...But don't forget, if the US backs out now, it will be seen as a MAJOR DEFEAT in the Middle East, and everything that the US has done in the last three years overthere will be null and void...And that is really a victory that can not be given to the Al Qaeda & Co.. Bush is still right to say that his and your country is involved in a war against terrorism..In that respect, pulling out of Iraq is not an option..

greetings

Jolyon
11-10-2003, 03:17 PM
When Bush and Rummy were strutting their stuff after the US took Baghdad and ignoring the UN and other usual Allies offers to get involved in the nation building, they were creating long term problems.

Those problems are coming home to roost now..but as always it's the lives of poor, decent, working people (young troops)...not the rich, indecent right wing hawks who send them off to battle...that are lost.

mdpm99
11-10-2003, 03:27 PM
Lyot:

"The Arabs may do things only half right, but it is their country and my time is short."

---Lawrence of Arabia

Ps. The above quote reflects whether the Arab countries should have a democracy ...which we are trying to impose on them.

PPs. How the hell r u? Hope all is well over by you. smile.gif