Congress to ban live music and dj events!!!

[JL]

***CONGRESS SEEKS TO BAN LIVE MUSIC AND DANCING!!
***COULD HAPPEN THIS YEAR; WE NEED YOUR HELP

Congress is considering two pieces of legislation that could
effectively ban live music and dancing, while throwing innocent
people like you in jail. If enacted, either bill could prevent you
from hearing your favorite band or DJ live. Every musical style would
be affected, including rock and roll, Hip Hop, country, and
electronic music. Both bills would allow overzealous prosecutors to
send innocent people to jail for the crimes of others. The two bills
are the RAVE Act (H.R. 718) and the CLEAN-UP Act (H.R. 834). Both
could be passed this year without your help. (Links to the Acts text
provided below.)

The RAVE Act would make it easier for the federal government to
punish property owners for any drug offense that their customers
commit - even if they work hard to stop such offenses. If enacted,
nightclub and stadium owners would likely stop holding events - such
as rock or Hip Hop concerts - in which even one person might use
drugs. Similarly, the CLEAN-UP Act contains provisions that would
make it a federal crime - punishable by up to nine years in prison -
to promote "any rave, dance, music or other entertainment event" that
might attract some attendees that would use or sell drugs. In both
cases, it doesn't matter if the concert promoter and property owner
try to prevent people from using drugs. Nor does it matter if the
vast majority of people attending the event are law-abiding citizens
that want to listen to music, not do drugs.

If either the CLEAN-UP Act or the RAVE Act becomes law, Congress
could effectively ban live music and dancing, as well as any other
event that might attract someone that would use drugs (essentially
any event that draws a large crowd). Your help is needed to stop
these bills from becoming law!!! Dancing, singing, and playing music
should not be a federal crime!

ACTIONS TO TAKE

*** Fax your Representative. Tell him or her to oppose the RAVE Act
in its entirety and to oppose Section 305 in the CLEAN-UP Act. You
can fax your Representative for free by going to
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/action/index.asp?step=2&item=1516.

** Please forward this action alert to your friends and family.
Unless Congress hears from thousands of voters these two bills could
easily become law.

BACKGROUND

The RAVE Act was first introduced last year in the Senate by Senator
Joe Biden (D-DE). A House version was introduced by Rep. Lamar Smith
(R-TX). Thanks to the support of thousands of voters like you, Drug
Policy Alliance and a coalition of friends and activists around the
country was able to stop both bills last year. Unfortunately,
supporters of the RAVE Act are even more determined to pass it this
year. Rep. Howard Coble (R-NC) is sponsoring a new RAVE Act in the
House. Additionally, Senator Biden has introduced a Senate version
entitled the Illicit Drugs Anti-Proliferation Act.

If enacted, both the House RAVE Act and the Senate Anti-Proliferation
Act would make it easier for federal prosecutors to fine and imprison
business owners that fail to stop drug offenses from occurring.
Businessmen and women could be prosecuted even if they were not
involved in drugs - and even if they took steps to stop drug use on
their property. Although proponents of the bill are seeking to target
raves (and DJs, nightclub owners, and rave promoters have the most to
fear), the law would apply to any business owner, including bar
owners, motel owners, concert promoters, and cruise ship owners.
Because of its broad language, the proposed law would even
potentially subject people to twenty years in federal prison if one
or more of their guests smoked marijuana at their party or barbecue.

For more information on the RAVE Act and Drug Policy Alliance's
campaign to stop it, see:
http://www.nomoredrugwar.org/music/rave_act.htm.

A full text of the bill can be viewed at:
http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?
dbname=108_cong_bills&docid=f:h718ih.txt.pdf
(Please cut and paste the entire URL into a browser window)

The CLEAN-UP Act was also first introduced last year, but it failed
to make it out of committee. This year's bill already has over 60 co-
sponsors and could become law without your help. Sponsored by Rep.
Doug Ose (R-CA), the Clean, Learn, Educate, Abolish, and Undermine
Production (CLEAN-UP) of Methamphetamines Act is largely an innocuous
bill that provides more money and training for the clean up of
illegal methamphetamine laboratories. Hidden within the bill,
however, is a draconian section that could make dancing and live
music federal crimes.

Section 305 of the CLEAN-UP Act stipulates that:

'Whoever, for a commercial purpose, knowingly promotes any rave,
dance, music, or other entertainment event, that takes place under
circumstances where the promoter knows or reasonably ought to know
that a controlled substance will be used or distributed in violation
of Federal law or the law of the place where the event is held, shall
be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned for not
more than 9 years, or both.'

Under the provision, any concert promoter, nightclub owner and arena
or stadium owner could be fined and jailed, since a reasonable person
would know some people use drugs at musical events. A full text of
the bill can be viewed at:

<http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?
dbname=108_cong_bills&docid=f:h834ih.txt.pdf>

Opponents of the bills fear that both proposed laws would be used by
racist or homophobic prosecutors to target Hip Hop and R&B concerts
and gay and lesbian nightclubs. Both bills would also eradicate
electronic dance music and culture, as we know it.

Fax your Representative. Tell him or her to oppose the RAVE Act in
its entirety and to oppose Section 305 in the CLEAN-UP Act. You can
fax your Representative for free by going to:
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/action/index.asp?step=2&item=1516.


++++++++++++++++++++++++You received this message because
john1lee@yahoo.com is a member of the mailing list originating
from alerts@actioncenter.drugpolicy.org.

Please visit
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.ctsg.com/managesubscription.asp to
learn about other lists you can subscribe to, or to unsubscribe from
individual or all lists.

For problems, please contact Jeanette Irwin at jirwin@drugpolicy.org .

Please consider joining the Drug Policy Alliance:
http://www.drugpolicy.org/join

[GROOVE VICTIM]

April Fools is next month.

Peace

[AD]

[ March 04, 2003, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: Albert D. ]

[JL]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
April Fools is next month.

Peacenot sure what you mean, but this is real. it's an extension of the crackhouse statute that was passed years ago. basically they are trying to legally label party venues as crackhouses. any bar/club/stadium owner will be reckless if they throw an event at all due to the exhorbitant fines and fees they will suffer if even one person in attendance is caught with drugs.

[Jamie 3:26]

Naw Groove.This is real bruh.I have been screaming about this for a while alongside JL.

Folks usually ignore these posts.The act is still trying to be passed.Heads need to support knocking this down.We have had a few postings on this for about a year now.With the wake of all the tragic evets surrounding clubs,we should try to support this.

[JL]

Thanks Jamie, if you want to continue enjoying live music or dj based events, click on this link:
http://actioncenter.drugpolicy.org/action....m=1516.
to fax your rep.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Then it's our responsibility to educate congress on the difference between Underground Culture and Rave Culture, or is there a difference? Don't let our Club Life get caught up in the same lifestyle as a raver.

[mhd]

back to the underground

[JL]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
Then it's our responsibility to educate congress on the difference between Underground Culture and Rave Culture, or is there a difference? Don't let our Club Life get caught up in the same lifestyle as a raver.there is no difference between a rave event, house event, classics event, rock n roll event, punk rock event, hiphop event with this bill. the enforcement of it, however, maybe very different. city officials can easily target certain events. Take for example Shelter, if one person is found with a joint, then the owners can be fined huge amounts of money and the club shut down.

[Dr. Freud]

None of your links work for me...
:(

[AD]

Originally posted by Dr. Freud:
None of your links work for me...
:( Hey Doc, sometimes when I move my arm from left to right it hurts. What should I do? smokin.gif

[Dr. Freud]

Nevermind... it just worked. Sorry.

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by mhd:
back to the undergroundwhere it is "safe and sound."

d

[formerly known as kenspank]

who the hell wrote these bills? perhaps we need to em out back and....

[Dr. Freud]

Originally posted by Albert D.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Dr. Freud:
None of your links work for me...
:( Hey Doc, sometimes when I move my arm from left to right it hurts. What should I do? smokin.gif </font>[/QUOTE]When you feel the pain in your arm, alternate between a heat pad and an ice pack for 20 minutes (10 minutes heat, 10 minutes ice). Do that once every other hour. To whom do I send the bill?

[ March 04, 2003, 12:37 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Freud ]

[Steven Stewart]

This is Bad..... graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Question, are you more concerned about this law being passed because it hinders your use of WEED at these public events (for those of you who smoke weed in the clubs), or is there another reason why you don't want this law to pass?

[ March 04, 2003, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[JL]

There's an obvious reason both you and I shouldn't want this law to pass. We like dj based parties. This law will basically make it so that even if club owners/promoters ban the use of drugs to the best of their abilities, but one dude sneaks in a joint the club owner will still be held responsible. Who would want to have an event in that case?

[DJJM3.COM]

It wont pass. Too many major players in the night club scene to allow it.....

[nev m]

Originally posted by DJ JM3:
It wont pass. Too many major players in the night club scene to allow it.....I hope it doesn't it's a disgrace man. We were talking about this whilst In NY it's a total infrigement of civil liberties in a so called democracy. Everyone should be allowed to let their hair down, and party.

This is the kind of issue that makes me think mad thoughts 'cause this kinda shit is worth fighting for.

[darshan]

Who is the f*cking Taliban now?! That was the one of the main criticisms leveled at the Islamic fundamentalists - "..why, they're not even allowing the poor Afghanis to enjoy music and dance..". These freaky as*holes running things from DC are no different!!

This is the rule of thumb for me from now on - look at what criticisms the politicians use to discredit the objects of their aggression, then look for the exact same behavior on their parts, masked by legislation and couched in legal and political language.

We need to clean these people out, or I'm getting the f*ck outta dodge --

D

[Friday]

Is this only happening in the States? This is really ****ed up graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[DeesKo]

While I think there is some validity to the arguements against the bills, and agree that they ULTIMATELY COULD POSSIBLY MAYBE IF THE RIGHT PERSON WANTED TO BEND THINGS A LITTLE OUT OF PROPORTION lead to the circumstances always thrown about (like one guy in a club with a joint getting the owner put in jail for 9 years) but you know what...

Speeding in Virginia COULD POSSIBLY MAYBE IF THE RIGHT PERSON WANTED TO BEND THINGS A LITTLE OUT OF PROPORTION get me killed.

Actually, I take that back, that already does happen on a fairly frequent basis.

There's one word in that entire bill that leaves the entire thing up to circumstance, makes all the crazed nazi-like references seem silly to me, and is going to be the hinge point of this bill's failure even if it is enacted and that's the word "reasonable"....

...That and the fact that most of the people screaming the loudest about this are people who are using clubs as crack dens.

Peace

[JL]

Didn't they pass something like this in Britian only to have it overturned a while back? Now aren't they requiring party venues to offer water and chillout rooms in an attempt to take care of users rather than criminalize them?

Darshan, I agree on the Taliban like opression in these sort of laws.

[DeesKo]

Originally posted by JL:


Darshan, I agree on the Taliban like opression in these sort of laws.Oh jeezus christ JL...

Shooting someone on sight for owning a TV or listening to a radio is only a little bit different than fining/jailing a club owner who knowingly lets 18 year old kids overdose on a myriad of club drugs 4 or 5 times a year.

On the real, just a tad dramatic B. That's exactly why a lot of people WON'T get involved with this whole boycott/call your senator thing.

Peace

[MR. PLUSHEDOUT]

I'LL JUST SMOKE MY WEED @ SYMPHONY CENTER! smokin.gif

[JL]

The consequences are different, yeah, but the effective restriction on our liberties is the same. From Guiliani's enforcement of Caberet laws to the Rave Act, I honestly believe our (people of the underground) primary mode of entertainment is in danger. What do you honestly think they will target, spots like VIP and Dream or Red, Five, and Nation?

[GROOVE VICTIM]

JL do you smoke Weed?

Just curious.

[JL]

Not really, I'll smoke occasionly to chill out the effects of other shit - but always save that stuff for house parties or afterhours.

Drinking is my forte.

[DeesKo]

RICO and the IRS could shut any nightclub in this country down with probably 1 weeks worth of work if that's what they were really after.

With less of a stretch of the imagination than this law would require.

Peace

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
Not really, I'll smoke occasionly to chill out the effects of other shit - but always save that stuff for house parties or afterhours.

Drinking is my forte.So if i'm in a club while you're smoking this weed, and you get caught, do I blame congress for having this club shut down? NO, I BLAME YOU for getting caught and ruining it for everyone else!!!
Now if I'm guilty by association, then it's MY fault for being in a place knowing that there are people who smoke the stuff and I will have to get myself out of this hole.

Anyone here ever get a speeding ticket?

Peace

[DeesKo]

Originally posted by JL:
The consequences are different, yeah, but the effective restriction on our liberties is the same. From Guiliani's enforcement of Caberet laws to the Rave Act, I honestly believe our (people of the underground) primary mode of entertainment is in danger.

Mine isn't and quite frankly, the active enforcement of that law has as much potential to make my nightlife MORE enjoyable than it does to end it.


What do you honestly think they will target, spots like VIP and Dream or Red, Five, and Nation?I think they'll target places where jackassed people can't control themselves because thats where the publicity campaign touting their successful law will start.

Peace

[DeesKo]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
So if i'm in a club while you're smoking this weed, and you get caught, do I blame congress for having this club shut down? NO, I BLAME YOU for getting caught and ruining it for everyone else!!!
THANK YOU!

IMHO that term "underground" that everyone likes to throw around means "out of sight of the mainstream public, off on our own, doin our own thing under their radars... and it means that for more reasons than just that our record sales don't break gold status.

Peace

[JL]

so is that a risk you want to take, leaving it up to drug users if clubs stay open or not?

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
so is that a risk you want to take, leaving it up to drug users if clubs stay open or not?It's the clubowners responsiblity not to let you guys up in his or her spot too.

Is this the risk you want to take, getting caught, going to jail, possibly loosing your job to just to get high in a public place when you can do it in the privacy of your home (although it's still illegal)?

I take risks everyday when I step into my car everymorning and go to work. But am I going to blame "THE MAN" for when I get pulled over for a speeding ticket?

[Pete Nice]

so when one of our elected officals gets caught.... say u.t.i. while driving(paying for the alcohol with tax dollars) i say then that no goverment officals can consume alcohol.... who gives a flying ***k if some dumbass can't handle their shit? i do, but i'm not gonna punish everyone for that person's mistake. how about holding people accountable for "their" actions. that's a thought, especially in these days and times. if clubs owners and promoters were smart they would do what everyone else does and become a special interest group and throw a shitload of cash at the scum that tell us what we can and cannot do. screw'em all....

[JL]

so it's the resonsibility of club owners to do what the US government cannot do themselves, win a battle in the war on drugs? drugs are already illegal, in tieing them into musical events with this legislation congress passes the ball to venue owners and promoters rather than to the proper enforcement officials. In trying to do one thing (fight the war on drugs) they want to potentially limit our rights w. something different.

I'm not of the camp that says house/classics events should go on while trance/rave/punk rock/industrial/whatever shows get cancelled.

[darshan]

Obviously people who play and enjoy music and dance are not going to be shot on the street in this country by our government a la the Taliban, if that did even occur to begin with.

However, for an administration who, as one of its cornerstones, touts liberty and freedom and this and that as the very reason for doing things that fly in the face of peace, common sense and world opinion, I find the attempts at over-regulation of LIFE IN THIS COUNTRY hypocritical to say the least.

Now, one can be as apologetic and understanding toward the legal and insurance establishments as one wants to, but if "personal freedoms" were really a priority we would be raising our society with more notions of personal responsibility as well -- perhaps then we wouldn't have as big of a problem with kids using parties as places to get cracked out with their eyes rolling back in their skulls.

The framework the "rave act" may seem benign but is probably very easily exploitable to clamp down on spaces, establishments or groups of people for ANY reason, hence the alarm in the first place. In that way it seems similar to the ambiguous language used in the "patriot act" and "patriot act II" - are those two pieces permissible as well??

Sure, lets DE-REGULATE the most harmful aspects of our creation - factory emissions, oil-drilling, logging, meat industry, waste-dumping and regulate and surveil the F*CK out of everyday living - email and telephone transactions, purchases, mail, entitlement to due-process, ability to assemble, etc. Makes a lot of sense!

Peace, D

[darshan]

PS. Sometimes it's about being able to see the logical extent of the thinking behind a particular piece of legislation that will no-doubt affect us all, not just its immediate effects. Of course, if there is complete trust in this administration where the liberties of the citizen are concerned, then this may not be an issue.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
so it's the resonsibility of club owners to do what the US government cannot do themselves, win a battle in the war on drugs? drugs are already illegal, in tieing them into musical events with this legislation congress passes the ball to venue owners and promoters rather than to the proper enforcement officials. In trying to do one thing (fight the war on drugs) they want to potentially limit our rights w. something different.

I'm not of the camp that says house/classics events should go on while trance/rave/punk rock/industrial/whatever shows get cancelled.When was the last time you allowed a KKK Member into your house? When was the last time you let someone steal your television right out from under you. YOU HAVE CONTROL over your posessions and you also have control over who or what comes in and out of your house. By your explanation in terms of this "Drug War", in relative terms, you're saying that you have no control over what comes in and out of your house. That's Bull Sh_t.

No it's not the club owners responsibilty to fight a battle that the Government is "Supposedly" trying to fight. At the same time, this is not an excuse for that same club owner for allowing the bouncers to allow all drug users and dope heads into his or her club "KNOWING" that it's against the law.

You're bigger than this!!!!!!

[ March 04, 2003, 03:12 PM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[JL]

Your analogies make no sense dude.

Although bouncers at clubs frisk people for drugs, people still find ways of getting shit into clubs. Policy is one thing, 100% enforcement of it is another. Many clubs here in DC have a zero tolerance policy towards drugs and weapons, people still sneak shit in all the time despite their efforts. Are you telling me that our future enjoyment of club culture is to be dependant on individuals who do everything they can to break existing laws and regulations as they stand, not even to mention this new act? That's what this legislation is basically trying to enact. You have to be able to see the ethical fallacies in this logic despite your stance on drug use.

Read Darshan's comments above, they make a lot of sense.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
Are you telling me that our future enjoyment of club culture is to be dependant on individuals who do everything they can to break existing laws and regulations as they stand, not even to mention this new act?

No, you're saying that because you being a Drug User who has the potential of getting caught has the ablilty to shut down a particular club that you patron on a weekly basis. It's up to you.

Peace

[JL]

so you want to leave your enjoyment of a club up to me and other drug users? people who already break the law and could care less about rules that regulate our use of evil substances?

currently, even if i do shit next to you at a club, the worst thing is you getting peaved, maybe pointing a bouncer in my direction so I get kicked out. if this law passes, that spot we both enjoy may not be there next week.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
so you want to leave your enjoyment of a club up to me and other drug users? people who already break the law and could care less about rules that regulate our use of evil substances?

currently, even if i do shit next to you at a club, the worst thing is you getting peaved, maybe pointing a bouncer in my direction so I get kicked out. if this law passes, that spot we both enjoy may not be there next week.Again, then it's MY responsibility to MOVE MY ASS out of the club and not getting into any trouble if I am standing next to someone who is doing drugs. If I am guilty by association, then it's my resposiblity to prove that I had no association with any person dealing with drugs that night.

I fully understand what Darshan was saying in his post and come to think of it, just being on this computer gives me enough information that Big Brother is watching all of us.

Peace

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
so you want to leave your enjoyment of a club up to me and other drug users? It's up to you, bring the shit in at risk of getting caught and screw it up for everyone else.

[JL]

Have you read the legislation? Association doesn't even matter!!!!
A venue owner is ****ed if any one person is found with drugs in their establishment, despite their efforts to curtail such activity. Association doesn't even need to be established if this legislation is passed, we're all ****ed.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
Have you read the legislation? Association doesn't even matter!!!!
A venue owner is ****ed if any one person is found with drugs in their establishment, despite their efforts to curtail such activity. Association doesn't even need to be established if this legislation is passed, we're all ****ed.Then I guess we all go home then.

[JL]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JL:
so you want to leave your enjoyment of a club up to me and other drug users? It's up to you, bring the shit in at risk of getting caught and screw it up for everyone else.</font>[/QUOTE]I understand your position, it is clear to me now. Rather than oppose this legislation you would rather have our enjoyment of club culture up to the whims of people who have already demonstrated a proclivity to disregard laws, rules, and regulations.

[lola desire]

soon they'll be passing some damn law that takes simple pleasures like sex away. graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JL:
so you want to leave your enjoyment of a club up to me and other drug users? It's up to you, bring the shit in at risk of getting caught and screw it up for everyone else.</font>[/QUOTE]I understand your position, it is clear to me now. Rather than oppose this legislation you would rather have our enjoyment of club culture up to the whims of people who have already demonstrated a proclivity to disregard laws, rules, and regulations.</font>[/QUOTE]It's due to people not being responsible and not thinking about the consequences that these kind of Legislative acts roll up on our Congressman's desks.

At the same time what do you have to say for those who have lost their lives in Chicago because of the clubowner did not abide by the rules?

Hey I'm drunk, can I drive YOUR car?
:rolleyes:

[mhd]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JL:
Have you read the legislation? Association doesn't even matter!!!!
A venue owner is ****ed if any one person is found with drugs in their establishment, despite their efforts to curtail such activity. Association doesn't even need to be established if this legislation is passed, we're all ****ed.Then I guess we all go home then.</font>[/QUOTE]exactly, and guess what we will do, play some records and dance with our friends

[lesysteme]

groove ..i love ya kid

but you and the others are totally missing the point here.

you have to step back and look at these issues in the context of civil liberites.

yo: this is totally ****ed up.

and what JL and Dar are trying to say is that this is effecting the ppl that put on these events.

I like how ppl here talk about the underground...great, please join us in the 21st century. These are incredibly regressive laws being proposed that infringe on the rights of ppl across an entire specturm of events.

this is like a national cabaret law. With a twist.

Now even hiring security and police staff (which most bigger events have to do to get permits) is not even enough. these laws say that if they **** up (right, no one ever uses drugs at rock concerts) that its the promoters fault. And because these are such wide parameters, they can be targetted at ppl who put on events that WE support.

Please, i cant believe that ppl here would think that somehow some member of congress will be able to tell between a rave and a house event....comon!!!! please..start to think about these things you are saying.

Plus the RAVE act got voted down and here it is bigger and better.

And MHD...back to underground...common man thats so weak, self centered and shallow.

there is no underground anymore..comon..and as an industry we've gone and tried to make alot of advances so ppl can get paid and get their music heard and this is your attitude......i dont even want to discuss so please save yer one liners for someone else.

If this passes it will be a dark day...a really dark day...anyone who was at the protests in NYC knows first hand how the NYPD handled itself..now they and others could be in a position to effectively shut down a number of events attented by ppl like you and me. this has got nothing to do with us getting bent out of shape cause we cant smoke or something...geez.

i dont smoke for the record either and these bills make my blood boil.

yes, its getting close to the taliban is some ways..please dont fool yerself. immigrants rounded up and fingerprinted...some stopped and rounded up on interstate spot checks..

please open your eyes and seek out what is happening in this country right now. youll be unpleasantly surprised.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

I guess the point I'm trying to get accoss is to be responsible. There's enough BS going on in this country that we have no control over such as cameras taking photos of people in major cities. Government and our employers tracking our every move while we're here chatting on the computer.

All I'm saying is that there needs to be intimate contact between ourselves and our Congressmen so they can fully understand that THERE IS a difference between our scene and the rave scene. You don't see Robbi posting about CluB Shelter having a party in the middle of the Dessert in Arizona do you?

[ March 04, 2003, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[JL]

this has nothing to do with people exercising their rights responsibly. people don't have a right to do drugs, no one is contesting that. it has to do with the unfair application of punishment onto many individuals for the activity of one miscreant individual. if i'm caught with drugs at a club, punish me, fine, don't punish others. the ethical logic behind the legislation is flawed.

you're running around in circles here, if you can't admit that you either a) didn't understand the legislation or b) want to leave the future of club culture up to other people who have demonstrated a tendency to break rules.

[ March 04, 2003, 04:02 PM: Message edited by: JL ]

[mhd]

Originally posted by lesysteme:
groove ..i love ya kid

but you and the others are totally missing the point here.

you have to step back and look at these issues in the context of civil liberites.

yo: this is totally ****ed up.

and what JL and Dar are trying to say is that this is effecting the ppl that put on these events.

I like how ppl here talk about the underground...great, please join us in the 21st century. These are incredibly regressive laws being proposed that infringe on the rights of ppl across an entire specturm of events.

this is like a national cabaret law. With a twist.

Now even hiring security and police staff (which most bigger events have to do to get permits) is not even enough. these laws say that if they **** up (right, no one ever uses drugs at rock concerts) that its the promoters fault. And because these are such wide parameters, they can be targetted at ppl who put on events that WE support.

Please, i cant believe that ppl here would think that somehow some member of congress will be able to tell between a rave and a house event....comon!!!! please..start to think about these things you are saying.

Plus the RAVE act got voted down and here it is bigger and better.

And MHD...back to underground...common man thats so weak, self centered and shallow.

there is no underground anymore..comon..and as an industry we've gone and tried to make alot of advances so ppl can get paid and get their music heard and this is your attitude......i dont even want to discuss so please save yer one liners for someone else.

If this passes it will be a dark day...a really dark day...anyone who was at the protests in NYC knows first hand how the NYPD handled itself..now they and others could be in a position to effectively shut down a number of events attented by ppl like you and me. this has got nothing to do with us getting bent out of shape cause we cant smoke or something...geez.

i dont smoke for the record either and these bills make my blood boil.

yes, its getting close to the taliban is some ways..please dont fool yerself. immigrants rounded up and fingerprinted...some stopped and rounded up on interstate spot checks..

please open your eyes and seek out what is happening in this country right now. youll be unpleasantly surprised.not sure why you singled me out for such a low blow, inaccurate as well. we can discuss and disagree. groove is making a monumental point, and that is we have to take care of the things we care about, before it gets to this stage.

there is a way to combat legislation you do not agree with, we can discuss that too, i do it for a living, insulting me is so counterproductive.

but if you are concerned about "the industry" that is one thing, i'm concerned about other things, if you care to know, david mancuso and maria and shalewa among others constantly articulate it much better than i can.

[JL]

Understood, I agree with you that people need to have more responsibility. People suing McDonald's for getting fat, bullshit like that pisses me off. With that said, I'm not going to stake my enjoyment of something on the hope and chance that someone else is being responsible.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
this has nothing to do with people exercising their rights responsibly. people don't have a right to do drugs, no one is contesting that. it has to do with the unfair application of punishment onto many individuals for the activity of one miscreant individual. if i'm caught with drugs at a club, punish me, fine, don't punish others. the ethical logic behind the legislation is flawed.

you're running around in circles here, if you can't admit that you either a) didn't understand the legislation or b) want to leave the future of club culture up to other people who have demonstrated a tendency to break rules.Are you reading what you are typing?

Quote: "it has to do with the unfair application of punishment onto many individuals for the activity of one miscreant individual"

This is due to someone's ignorance of the law and the rules of the club that he or she attended. It is therefore that person's responsiblity to know the rules and regulations of that club. If this person does not understand the rules, then suffer the consequences. One of those consequences is the many ruined nights of the other law abiding people in that same club.

If this is not a form of irresponsibility, then I'm taking my ass home driving 90 miles per hour hoping to ruin some family's life.

The common denominator in this entire discussion is RESPONSIBILITY!!!!!!

[ March 04, 2003, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[JL]

you're assuming that the legislation itself is ethically sound when you boil it down to responsibility.

[JL]

you're assuming that the legislation itself is ethically sound when you boil it down to responsibility.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JL:
you're assuming that the legislation itself is ethically sound when you boil it down to responsibility.The German Autobon (sp) is a disaster waiting to happen but the rules (harsh by american standards) that keep that highway safe don't seem to bother the people who drive on it.

I'm going home for the night. Let's hope I make it home safe and sound.

Peace

[lesysteme]

groove with all due respect.

youve got to be kidding me.

All a politician cares about is that his/her consituent mom and dads are bitching about their 15 year old kids going to parties with DJs coming home ****ed up and/or seeing their friends getting ****ed up.

please, this is how the world works.

theres no way in hell that he could go to them and say "listen, we're goin to take care of those DJ parties, but just to let you know, hey theres these other DJ parties that are really good so we're goin to let them go"

Plus THIS BILL HAS NOTHING TO EVEN DO WITH THIS ISSUE.

Please read that again, then repeat.

This is about attacking the owners, who are doin everything right alrealy. plus this is our culture beign attacked. IF the owners **** up, then yes they should be punished like they ALREASY CAN BE under permit violations...why arent these enough? thyve worked already in the past. Look at the cases happening right now re: the fires

To sit here and try and decide and go "well, ive got my little corner and im goin to be ok" is so against what i feel the underground is supposed to be about.

We have to stand up and fight for all sorts of different independant promoters and attendees. We cant just sit here and go "look, we'll just explain that were different"...it doenst work that way..we can't just look out for ourselves and let everyone else sink just cause we dont like their music...

and this isnt even about music...this is about across the board hassles and infringment of potential civil liberites.

Lets say you have a house party in your home. you tell your guest no drugs. someone brings some drugs in..you catch them then you ask them to leave...but then you miss someone else..the cops show up for a noise complaint..find the drugs on someone else...you got to jail...is that fair? why are you to blame? you followed the rules...then everyone on you block hears...**** dat, they aint goin to throw no house party in their crib after hearing what happened...

plus is it really the way the laws should work? did you ask ppl to bring drugs? no..you did youre best..so what, doesnt matter anymore.

wow ive never been to an afterhours party where they played music i like and there was anything illegal goin on..no drinks being sold with out a liscence..not pot being smoked..geez man common! our hands arent clean either.

so now here is a perfect way to bust us and basically SHUT US DOWN..and all ppl can say is "well, it wont happen to us"...

its just about to happen.

[Myron]

Why is it so important to separate the "rave scene" and the "underground scene"? First of all, the government officals have no desire to even take the time to tell the difference. Second of all, whether you like it or not, the "rave scene" is keeping house music alive to a certain extent.

No one is denying that individuals need to take individual responsibility for their actions but advocating witchhunts based on mere suspicion of drug distribution, not necessarily the actual intent, something is wrong with that. Historically, anti-drug laws have been used to justify racist public policy. Under this law, the government could easily interrupt a block party, a house party, a private gathering, etc. if someone believes there is an "intent" to distribute drugs. And who is to prevent the government from planting drugs if a particular club is considering detrimental to the neighborhood.

Considering how laws of this type are ultimately enforced and the type of momentum it could create for similiar more directed laws to pass, it would be very dangerous to let this law pass.

Myron

[lesysteme]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
The German Autobon (sp) is a disaster waiting to happen but the rules (harsh by american standards) that keep that highway safe don't seem to bother the people who drive on it.

I'm going home for the night. Let's hope I make it home safe and sound.

Peace[/QB]so ok lets say that there is an accident on the autobahn...using this laws logic, everyone on the autobahn would be punished and even the car manufaturer...just cause one person ****ed up.

youre not following throught with your own logic.

i hope you make it home safe tho:)

[Myron]

'Whoever, for a commercial purpose, knowingly promotes any rave,
dance, music, or other entertainment event, that takes place under
circumstances where the promoter knows or reasonably ought to know
that a controlled substance will be used or distributed in violation
of Federal law or the law of the place where the event is held, shall
be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned for not
more than 9 years, or both.'

That could mean anything from a rave to a Bruce Springsteen concert. This goes beyond personal responsibility into the government dictating what's appropriate and what's inappropriate entertainment. If someone feels threatened by a particular entertainment or venue, they could use this law to shut it down. Raves could get shut down but I could see coffeehouses, small concert venues, or your favorite club get shut down because it is a blight on the block and brings down property values.

Myron

[mhd]

i think you guys are being a little naive, clubs get shut down by local community opposition all the time

[lesysteme]

yes exactly

so why do we need these new laws now?

a good point to make in opposition to them no?

but of course you have no probs with them cause youll just go back to the underground where everything is fine and perfect and nothing bad happens and let all the "rave" promoters get ****ed with, right mark?

[the crackhouse]

mhd, GROOVE, I don't even understand why you are argumenting (bad english, I know...).

These laws can be effective soon.
So they shut down the clubs where there are the more drug users.
Where will they use their drugs then..?
At home ? Maybe some days but where's the fun ?
So they'll go to other places, if it's the club owner who goes in jail, why not do ANY club still open ?

You don't like a club ? You just buy some weed, roll ajoint, fire it, then extinct it.
Then you go to this club you hate and put the exctincted joint on the floor.
You call the police and the club owner goes in jail.

You don't like GROOVE and mhd. They are responsible underground activists. You do the exctinced joint thing in their house, during a private party>>> where do they go ?

The laws are about to be active soon>>> So you better think about the consequencies, not the causes !!!!!!
Got it ?
It's not you being responsible, it's everyone paying for other's abuse or dontGiveAshit about laws...

I hope your arguments are good cause I don't see any to follow my statements.
Your arguments and thoughts about being responsible are good, and I am truly in YOUR way, but the time is now, not time to think but act with intelligence about the consequencies.

(sorry for the bad spellings and english...)

[mhd]

i'm a little confused, do we know each other? have you changed your name?

not sure why you would assume that i got a problem with ravers or raves or rave promoters.

i'm not promoting this legislation, neither is groove, but one thing is certain, and that is the game has changed, and if you want to operate any kind of club you have to concerned about security. the only reason it came to this is because people forgot about this, in the pursuit of bigger and bigger parties = more money, to their detriment, and to the sacrifice of your safety and mine.

two recent posts come to mind, when 2121 advocated for the "right" to smoke weed in the shelter, and when leonard said he doesn't care about security since his role was as the dj.

those two attitudes are a recipe for disaster

[gabriel]

y'know groove, you are being really ignorant.

first off, there is a major parity between what you label "our" scene and what you label the "rave" scene, and that is that they are both comprised of people who love to do one thing:

dance to music.

is a congressperson who is aiming to look tough on crime going to distinguish between white noise and the latest blaze remix? no, no, a thousand times no.

the issue here is one raised by jaime, jl and les. please reread their posts carefully. civil liberties, freedom, oversight, overstepping bounds...those are all major concerns. major.

considering that at every single music event from a kenny g concert to a black sabbath concert to a rave to a club to a blues show to folk to bluegrass to brittney spears there are people there using any number of drugs...this legislation is WAY overly broad.

read the text of last years rave act and this years re-do of it. they took out one paragraph. the one that mentioned the word rave...why? because its name and that paragraph made it look like they were targeting a single group too much.

but the issues present remain the same.
don't take the risk.

[the crackhouse]

Originally posted by mhd:
[QB]i'm a little confused, do we know each other? have you changed your name?/QB]Is this question adressed to me ?
I'm mathieu, from france, not someone hiding behind other ID... And we don't know each other, I'm just giving my opinion : I don't understand what you are arguing about when the laws are for real, and you are just speaking of an utopia = everyone responsible.
And another utopia = the congress making a difference between rave and house, or between hiphop and electronic music.

[mhd]

Originally posted by idancetoomuch:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
[QB]i'm a little confused, do we know each other? have you changed your name?/QB]Is this question adressed to me ?
I'm mathieu, from france, not someone hiding behind other ID... And we don't know each other, I'm just giving my opinion : I don't understand what you are arguing about when the laws are for real, and you are just speaking of an utopia = everyone responsible.
And another utopia = the congress making a difference between rave and house, or between hiphop and electronic music.</font>[/QUOTE]actually, it was not addressed to you,

[the crackhouse]

For GROOVE : too bad you're on your way back home, i wish you could respond in the instant. Must be shitty position to come back and see the discussion evolve without being able to argue...
See you in some hours ! smile.gif

[So easy a protic can do it (QUAD)]

YOU KNOW WHAT??????....THIS IS ONE TIME WHERE I WOULD DENOUNCE MY CITIZENSHIP AS AN AMERICAN AND GO LIVE IN LONDON SOMEWHERE!!! NOW THEY WANNA **** UP OUR LIVELIHOOD AS FAR AS HOW WE AS A INTERTAINMENT INDUSTRY MAKE OUR LIVING!!!! I DON'T BLAME PEOPLE LIKE R. OWENS AND C. KHAN FOR MOVING OVERSEAS!! AT LEAST THEY CAN MAKE THEIR LIVING WITHOUT BEING HARRASSED BY SOMETHING WE CALL A GOV'T!!!!! I'M IN TOTAL SORROW FOR THE LOSS OF THOSE LIVES IN THE CLUBS AND IT'S A SHAME THAT THIS HAS HAPPEND, BUT THESE SHOULD BE TREATED AS "INDIVIDUAL" SITUATIONS AND NOT BLAME THE CLUB SCENE AND TAKE AWAY THE RIGHT TO PERFORM IN A PUBLIC VENUE!!!!! NEXT THING U KNOW THEY WILL BE ARRESTING JANET JACKSON OR STING FOR PERFORMANCES THAT THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO DO!!!!! ****!!! IT'S WHAT THEY DO AS A PROFESSION!!! " LEAVE US THE **** ALONE" , SIMPLE!! graemlins/cussing.gif graemlins/cussing.gif graemlins/soapbox.gif graemlins/nono.gif

[(Im)poster]

For the record, I don't drink or use drugs, but this proposed legislation concerns me greatly. I agree with the need for people to be personally responsible, but short of body cavity searches before entering a club, how can owners really ensure that no drugs enter an establishment? I really am not so concerned with owners, either, but rather my need to enjoy music at high levels on a good quality sound system and dance in the company of like-minded others. As I read it, both pieces of legislation would greatly endanger my enjoyment of nightlife. I know firsthand that people on the outside do not differentiate between the various DJ-driven scenes.

So, MHD, what would you suggest we do? I think you said you have some ideas (I hope I don't have to go back for your exact words). Please do share, because I really believe it is urgent to take some sort of action, even though with these folks, it's only money that talks.

[the crackhouse]

Originally posted by mhd:
actually, it was not addressed to you,[/QB]Ok.
I have to say that the "Who smokes weed" thread is more funny than this one.

[mhd]

Originally posted by (Im)poster:
For the record, I don't drink or use drugs, but this proposed legislation concerns me greatly. I agree with the need for people to be personally responsible, but short of body cavity searches before entering a club, how can owners really ensure that no drugs enter an establishment? I really am not so concerned with owners, either, but rather my need to enjoy music at high levels on a good quality sound system and dance in the company of like-minded others. As I read it, both pieces of legislation would greatly endanger my enjoyment of nightlife. I know firsthand that people on the outside do not differentiate between the various DJ-driven scenes.

So, MHD, what would you suggest we do? I think you said you have some ideas (I hope I don't have to go back for your exact words). Please do share, because I really believe it is urgent to take some sort of action, even though with these folks, it's only money that talks.first of all, how can you say you are not concerned with owners? when owners have that attitude we get E-2. how exactly does the legislation endanger your enjoyment of nightlife? Because it asks owners to not aid and abett the sale or use of drugs? the one joint examples are smoke screens, no law enforcement agency could possibly afford to enforce to that degree.

As far as legislation, this type of activism is key. there is already a huge interest in fighting this legislation and you are correct money is key, with over 3000 members here you should be able to raise 10,000.00 plus volunteers and continue to spread your opposition and hire lobbyists to contact congressional members and staffers, take them to dinner at Morton's and the Palm and make your deals. establish contacts in the members district and see if you can fund a credible opponent, etc. Develop coalitions with powerful voices and convince them that they have something at stake, if you can't think of anything, you can hire someone that can.
write editorials, appear on the news and radio, fax press releases, the list is endless

[TAC]

'Whoever, for a commercial purpose, knowingly promotes any rave, dance, music, or other entertainment event, that takes place under
circumstances where the promoter knows or reasonably ought to know that a controlled substance will be used or distributed in violation of Federal law or the law of the place where the event is held, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned for not more than 9 years, or both.'

I like this law. First off, "for a commercial purpose..." Does this mean that we'll be going back to throwing gigs in our basements like we used to?

Secondly, it says "music, or other entertainment event..." Just what the hell does that mean? If I remember, laws are overturned as unconstitutional for being vague and overly broad. This one sure looks suspect.

Ya'll need to pipe down, and get a grip. I wonder if this proposed law can even pass constitutional muster.

Peace
TAC

[ March 04, 2003, 06:56 PM: Message edited by: TAC ]

[(Im)poster]

Originally posted by mhd:
first of all, how can you say you are not concerned with owners? when owners have that attitude we get E-2. how exactly does the legislation endanger your enjoyment of nightlife? Because it asks owners to not aid and abett the sale or use of drugs? the one joint examples are smoke screens, no law enforcement agency could possibly afford to enforce to that degree.

As far as legislation, this type of activism is key. there is already a huge interest in fighting this legislation and you are correct money is key, with over 3000 members here you should be able to raise 10,000.00 plus volunteers and continue to spread your opposition and hire lobbyists to contact congressional members and staffers, take them to dinner at Morton's and the Palm and make your deals. establish contacts in the members district and see if you can fund a credible opponent, etc. Develop coalitions with powerful voices and convince them that they have something at stake, if you can't think of anything, you can hire someone that can.
write editorials, appear on the news and radio, fax press releases, the list is endlessI did not mean to imply that I don't care about club safety -- as a patron and a human, I would and do. I meant that I am not concerned with preventing passage of the legislation as far as it would benefit the business interests of club owners as a whole.

I'm sure you know that New York's cabaret law is quite old. It's just how it has been enforced recently that causes a problem. Likewise, the legislation in question, if passed, would pose a threat to my enjoyment of nightlife if overzealously enforced and my favorite night spot were shut down. Lord knows we can't afford to lose another house venue. I know you know this could very well happen.

But I guess the Shelter, the Paradox and other big clubs have been shut down in the past without the benefit of such legislation. Thankfully, those clubs were able to reopen. I suppose I'm just afraid of added ammunition against an already embattled scene.

As far as Raves are concerned, the only real problem I have with them is the associated drug use (and maybe the glow sticks). If the legislation addressed only that, I would wholeheartedly support it as well.

All of your suggestions are great, but honestly, if I would put that kind of effort into anything, it would be to try to end bioengineering of food or to keep in place environmental protections that are steadily and steathily being eroded by the present administration. I should not have to go to such lengths just to dance in public, but I guess I do. Thanks for the tips.

[ March 04, 2003, 07:48 PM: Message edited by: (Im)poster ]

[(Im)poster]

Originally posted by TAC:
Does this mean that we'll be going back to throwing gigs in our basements like we used to?
I hope not. What if I didn't know anybody with a basement? Or there were only members-only Loft type places? I'd rather just be able to pay and get in.

I'm really not trying to be confrontational. I am sincerely concerned about the scene and what seems to be at stake. Maybe I am just buying into the hype, but I'd rather be hyped now instead of when it's too late.

[lesysteme]

lesysteme=jamesd

[mdpm99]

Dear Folks:

We use to have these "Be In's" in CPW many years ago. Thousands of folks use to converge on the park and kind of have just good clean creative fun.

Some may remember....60's. It was an excellent concept.

Purrrhaps a "Dance In" might be what's called for, that's if they pass this nonsense.

It worked then and it could work now.

d

Ps. On the more radical side, we use to have "smoke in's in Thompkins Sq Park. Thousand people or more lighting up....they couldn't do anything about it.

smokin.gif

[ March 05, 2003, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[DJJM3.COM]

Originally posted by lola desire:
soon they'll be passing some damn law that takes simple pleasures like sex away. graemlins/jpshakehead.gif Been done.....Can you say sexual harassment?

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by gabrielloveshouse:
y'know groove, you are being really ignorant.

first off, there is a major parity between what you label "our" scene and what you label the "rave" scene, and that is that they are both comprised of people who love to do one thing:

dance to music.

is a congressperson who is aiming to look tough on crime going to distinguish between white noise and the latest blaze remix? no, no, a thousand times no.

the issue here is one raised by jaime, jl and les. please reread their posts carefully. civil liberties, freedom, oversight, overstepping bounds...those are all major concerns. major.

considering that at every single music event from a kenny g concert to a black sabbath concert to a rave to a club to a blues show to folk to bluegrass to brittney spears there are people there using any number of drugs...this legislation is WAY overly broad.

read the text of last years rave act and this years re-do of it. they took out one paragraph. the one that mentioned the word rave...why? because its name and that paragraph made it look like they were targeting a single group too much.

but the issues present remain the same.
don't take the risk.So how do we get our congressmen to distinguish between the two? This is what's wrong with our country today. We can post some legislture online all we want but are any of us going to turn into Farrakan and gather a "Million Club Head March" on the front lawns of the Capital? Again if you read my earlier post I said that we need to have intimate contact with our congressmen to help distinguish the two. This doesn't mean that I'm Biased against the Rave Scene because I'm sure there are alot of shady Clubs that play our type of music floating around in our country right now. And as far as the Rave scene goes, I used to hang out with alot of Rave kids when I was living in California. They seemed to be more focused on getting F_cked up on Acid and weed rather than dancing to the music. The music was just an after thought. "Yeah, let's go get F_ucked at the Shelter, uhh who's playing tonight, who cares, I wanna get high." And this is not just one set of kids in one community.

Are you more conerned about your civil liberties as a citizen of the United States or are you more concerned about our little scene. We are all concerned about our rights as citizens. None of us need "The Man" on our backs everyday, unfortunately he's on our backs and some of us don't even know it. One way to get him off your back is to simply turn off your computer. At the same time when you have people who perpetuate the ills of our society and we sit around and let it happen right in front of our eyes, who's fault is it when "The Man" comes knocking on our doors. That's why we have community watches in our neighborhoods because some of those people said, "I had enough", and did something to better their lives for their family and their commUNITY.

Like TAC stated, some of the language within this proposed legislature is rather vaque and can actually include High School Band competitions and School plays when you think about it. This is where we loose focus on this situation at hand.

All I'm saying is that if you really want the man off of our backs then we as DJs, Club Owners, Dancers, responsible reporters, and promoters need to take the initiative to keep our clubs clean and safe. Unfortunatly that's not happening and those few bad apples unfortunately affect those many good ones.

There was a post from last month in which Jr Vasquez had a video that stated that Drugs killed our scene. Some of you supported this statement, and some of you had other issues.

There was also a thread in which someone on this very board discussing that they smoke weed at the shelter, I believe MHD brought this to light in an earlier post, and there was some backlash about it.

An issue on smoking weed in the Shelter (http://deephousepage.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=024514)

Your beloved Shelter being shut down prior to this legislature being passed and who's fault is it? Think about it.

Since you guys are asking me to read your thoughts again and again, I think some of us need to read past threads and think about what we're doing now to preserve our scene.

Peace

[ March 05, 2003, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[gabriel]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
This is what's wrong with our country today. We can post some legislture online all we want but are any of us going to turn into Farrakan and gather a "Million Club Head March" on the front lawns of the Capital? Again if you read my earlier post I said that we need to have intimate contact with our congressmen to help distinguish the two. [/QB]funny that you mention it, groove. because that's pretty much exactly what IS being done. maybe not a Million club heads yet, but with you there we'll be one person closer.

last year a very grassroots, out-of-pocket funded group of "ravers" in washington dc started organizing in just that way. aligned themselves with the ACLU and the DPA, met with some key sponsoring senators (who later removed their sponsorship), and held a rally with dj's and speakers (including Sam 'the man' Burns, i might add) on the West Lawn of the Capitol that drew 1000+ heads from as far away as boston. not too bad for 6 weeks of planning and no funding.

Rallies were also held that day or the following in New York, LA, San Francisco, Seattle...all based on the work of a few dedicated "ravers". so please don't be so easy to point a finger and call names when perhaps these very people you deride for various reason may just be the only reason you are able to go out and boogie right now in 2003. because the Rave Act didn't pass.

But it IS back.

it's not a question of just posting legislation on a messageboard. there is a lot going on behind the scenes. if you, groove, or anyone on this board-- be you anywhere in the US-- would like to get involved and figure out something to do...feel free to contact.

the name of the group which organized last years rally on the mall is ROAR! (www.roargroup.org). currently working very hard on getting another MUCH LARGER rally set up on the mall. and if you're going to the Winter Music Conference, maybe you'll see us there.

[ March 05, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: gabrielloveshouse ]

[JL]

At the same time when you have people who perpetuate the ills of our society and we sit around and let it happen right in front of our eyes, who's fault is it when "The Man" comes knocking on our doors. This seems to be the real issue here. Personally, I think this country has to move towards decriminalization like they are currently doing in Europe. Can we be so naive to think people are just going to stop getting ****ed up at clubs? Additionally, how do you propose that we distinguish ourselves from Congress from other dj based events? Places like Shelter may stick out, what about parties with dudes like Farina, Carter, etc playing? Will they not be included in your grand house collective? Idealistically, what you propose has merit to some degree. In practice, it is impossible.

Loft - had drugs.
Paradise Garage - had drugs.
Music Box - had drugs.
Warehouse - had drugs.
Studio 54 - had drugs.
Saint - had drugs.
Sound Factory - had drugs.
Vinyl - had drugs.
Shelter - has drugs.
Paradox - has drugs.
... - had and continues to have drugs.

Preserve what? A bit revisionist if you ask me. I don't think anyone here can deny the connection between drugs and the underground scene. It is what it is. What's next, a party where people shouldn't dance because that's the law and we have to keep the scene going? Oh wait, that's already happening in NYC.

[mhd]

Originally posted by lesysteme:
lesysteme=jamesdwassup, man, thanks for the id!

[nev m]

Preserve what? A bit revisionist if you ask me. I don't think anyone here can deny the connection between drugs and the underground scene. It is what it is. What's next, a party where people shouldn't dance because that's the law and we have to keep the scene going? Oh wait, that's already happening in NYC.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Precisely!! "In you come now!! but remember no dancing!! , and dont't smile to much that's tantamount to having taken drugs!! By the way help youself to cocktail sausages from the bar."

F**k that!

[Meridian]

Every thing seems to be going as planned.

[DeesKo]

Originally posted by JL:

Loft - had drugs.
Paradise Garage - had drugs.
Music Box - had drugs.
Warehouse - had drugs.
Studio 54 - had drugs.
Saint - had drugs.
Sound Factory - had drugs.
Vinyl - had drugs.
Shelter - has drugs.
Paradox - has drugs.
... - had and continues to have drugs.

This is exactly the point.

People insisting on making sure that EVERYONE'S business is out there in plan view of the public when they KNOW it's illegal.

Congress and local law enforcement thanks you for helping them prove their point that drugs in the clubs is a rampant, devastating and harmful dredge on society and they also would like to thank you for helping them start their list of potential targets.

People being irresponsible for their actions is why this law is being considered and you aren't going to win this battle by trying to prove that there are too many people being irresponsible to ever stop it.

For the record, I think the law(s) are stupid, unnecessary, and a waste of time and money. I also think that having a million kids on the capital lawn screaming "we want to be able to get ****ed up in the club" is only going to give them ammunition to prove their point.

Peace

[gabriel]

y'know

holing peoples behavior into their homes does not make the problem dissapear.

ignorance may be bliss, but blindness never is.

oh..and bump
write your senator