Is DJ culture AT ODDS with House culture?

[Bold Soul]

Following Tony Cano's lead...

Over the past few days, we have uncovered that House music as a genre/product depends upon DJs:

1. The majority of sales of the music are to DJs.

2. Consumer awareness of the music comes from DJs.

3. The force that makes a new track a "banger" is the DJ.

4. Consumers receive the music from the DJ, either by club set, online mixes or mix CDs.

We have also heard that sales figures relative to the genre are somewhere in the range of 1500 copies = Platinum - which is eclipsed by popular music's figure of 1M.

Q - is it at all possible that the genre somehow became the domain of the DJ in the US and therefore suffered as a consumer product?

[sammyrock]

Capitlism??????? :D

[Jay Rags]

Damn I'm so glad you posted this. I have had this thinking for a long time. I remember back around 88-92, I purchased so many records and tapes from a record store that it became a House music collection. I was only a consumer then as I am now, but now I can't just leave my house and drive to the nearest store to get a record that I am feeling, like I use to. I usually wait until someone is selling a mixed cd or if I happen to visit on of the dj stores.

Plus, some dj's are so hell bent on trying to out-"new music" the next dj, that you can't even find the songs in the stores if you do like it because it won't be out until the year 2007.

[ November 13, 2003, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: jay rags ]

[GROOVE VICTIM]

The construct of many Dance labels is to sell or GIVE music to the DJs first. How many Gospel or Counrty promos do you see out there compared to dance music.

There are too many singles, and not that many Full length albums. Too many DJs producing, and not enought musicians getting credit for the work asked by a DJ. To many singers and songwriters being overshadowed by DJs.

"DJ so and so presents"

Now how many 12s can you find with this title?

Any president of a large major label would be foolish to move 12 inch singles day in and day out when he can invest his time and money into an album of 10 songs, mass market it, and not have to worry as much about loosing any money on his or her investment.

The platform on which House Music stands on needs to be rebuilt from the ground up. Music Appreciation in the Black and Latino community for this music needs to come back. Once this happens, then we will see that middle america will want to get involved, no different then hip hop music, slang, and fasion.

Peace

[ November 13, 2003, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[Bold Soul]

Damn Groove... hail.gif

[DLow]

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
Q - is it at all possible that the genre somehow became the domain of the DJ in the US and therefore suffered as a consumer product? I think that's very possible, due to a lack of exposure. I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but lack of radio airplay has seriously contributed to the music itself becoming a DJ's medium in some respects. DJs and serious listeners are willing to research and find what it is they're looking for whether it's played on the radio or not. When house started to disappear from radio station after radio station, the DJs knew where to go; serious listeners, if they didn't know, knew how to find out where to go.

It's strange because a lot of the arguments that center on house music seeing its last days could be applied to (what's called) underground hip-hop. I think in this realm, the problem was/is underground hip-hop is not marketable because 'it's too serious and nobody wants to hear that sh*t'...(that's on some bullsh*t, but that's my opninion...)

So, to me, house became the realm of the DJ beacuse of
1 - lack of radio (and dare I say 'television') exposure and
2 - what record execs, in some instances, wanted to market.

There may be more contributing factors but my experience is limited. Just my two pennies...

[JMJ]

The fact that the 12" is the primary format is a huge contributor to the problem. The average consumer DOESN'T OWN a turntable. I've got a co-worker (24 years-old) that doesn't know what a 45 is. The recent decision by West End and some of the other labels to offer 99 cent downloads is a GREAT idea, but they need to market that service more aggresively to the average consumer, not just the DJ. CD singles are a lot less costly to make than 12" vinyl, but how many house labels offer a CD single?? Consumers buy CD singles. I understand that most of OUR music is produced and manufactured by smaller independent labels with limited resourses, but they're missing the boat by only offering vinyl as their only format. As a DJ that prefers vinyl, I'm glad it's still an option. The average consumer could care less, and they can't support what they can't buy in a format that suits their needs. How many non-DJ's buy 12" vinyl?? That's part of the reason why 1500 sold is considered a success. The labels need to change their marketing mentality, and quick......JMJ

[ November 13, 2003, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: JMJ ]

[lyot]

just some thoughts on this.. Groove you make very intelligent points..

1. Doesn't 'consumer' equal 'dj' nowadays , when it comes to vinyl ? This break even 1500 copies , aren't they all bought by people who themselves dj ?

2.when it comes to cd's, can you say that consumer awareness comes from dj's or that people receive it from the DJ ? I know so many people who do not know shit about music or dj names , but who buy specific because friends have'em, because it can be heard on radio, because it's featured in magazines ..All this is low level of course, because even in Europe, the scene is small.. but do not forget that there are a lot of life style magazine's who feature record reviews of ALL different genres ( with Moodyman next to Beyoncé for instance..) ..
As a matter of fact, I think consumer awareness comes not exclusively and even little from Dj's.. At least if we're talking about the cd buying consumer..It's a different story for the Dj consumer..

It would be interesting to see what's giving labels more revenue : cd's or vinyl.. I have no clue to be honest what's the difference between both..

greetings

[Bold Soul]

Interesting Derrick and JMJ.

If House is strictly a DJ's medium, Naked Music hasn't heard. They have quite a catalog available at the Apple Music Store.

[DeesKo]

IMHO

We're talking about how to come up with more presentable product for the masses (full length CD's by artists, not 12" singles on vinyl etc) but there is also the idea that you can have all the product in the world, even quality product and not have a market for that product. For every platinum hip-hop album, I'm willing to bet there's 10,000 that didn't sell 1500 units, full length CD or not. 5,000 of those were quality albums too.....

Is DJ CULTURE at odds with house music ?
I don't think so.

Are weak DJ's at odds with house music ?
Definitely.

Good DJ's are the cornerstone to build from, especially given the situation we have right now and good parties with good DJ's could and should be exploited even further so as to help build that market so that those full length CD's move units.

Even in hip-hop, a large majority of the success of an artist relies on the backing of specific key DJ's. Trance and progressive road off the coattails of specfic key DJ's. If that wasn't true, payola wouldn't exist.

We need quality DJ's in house venues who know how to make people who aren't already house heads enjoy the shit out of this music. Every single "house head" I know walked into a club at some point feeling marginal about house music at best and walked out that night a HOUSE HEAD. If that DJ on that night had sucked, and hadn't known how to capture both the heads and the non-heads and work them BOTH into a frenzy, that wouldn't have happened.

Once you start building a REAL market, thats when the mix CD's, full length artist CD's etc etc can become worthwhile investments. Sometimes getting ahead of yourself does more harm than good (for instance how many people have been turned off from house music because their only exposure to it was from a DJ or club that sucked, but thats their impression of what this is all about).

Once we are at a point where there is enough real demand to justify it, we need to have rack upon rack of legal, quality house music mix CD's on the shelves in Tower, we need radio edits of the bangers and compilation non-mixed CD's, we need artist full length albums, we need CD Singles and online downloads on legal websites via places like ITunes etc and we need DJ's paying for their licensing and selling their mix CD's at the club on the spot.


Most importantly, we need people DOING it instead of talking about it or blaming everything on whether we get radio airplay or not. We complain about not having radio airplay but how many singles do you see coming out with a radio edit nowadays ?


Now, all that said, do I think the demand is there already ? I don't know.
Would it appear there is based on what we see on DHP ? Sure
Should we be limiting our market research to DHP? No.


Just my opinions...

Peace

[Brian]

here's an interesting article regarding the sales of music online (downloads), CD singles, and consumer preference for singles .. some excerpts:

"The Recording Industry Association of America's mid-year music statistics chart the number of music products shipped to retailers between January and June. During that time, the labels shipped 5.8 million CD singles (this year), compared with 2.2 million singles in the same period the year before. That's an increase of over 160 percent."

but then...

"In previous years, the music industry has drastically reduced the number of singles shipped. At its peak in 1997, 66.7 million CD singles were shipped to retailers. The numbers have rapidly declined since then. In 2002, the industry shipped 4.5 million singles."

here's the link:

http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,60282,00.html

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Something to think about. Since the advent of MTV, Record labels not only had to rush to get their product out, but they had to find more cash to create music videos.

House Music was on the right track with making videos, ie Crystal Waters, Michael Watford, Frankie Knuckles, etc. But I also believe that AMERICAN culture killed House Music's progression. Because of House Music's history, homophobia in America during the early 90s was not going away. The walls of American Sexuality and beliefs are beginning to break down but it's too little too late for House Music. So the music's only top purchaser was the DJ, and now I believe that the DJ is a major part in the deterioation of the music and the mixing. So in essense, it was inevitable.

One thing to think about. We cannot seperate ourselves from Hip Hop culture, especially in the New York market. House and Hip Hop were literally one in the same until the Thug Mentality took over Hip Hop. I believe that if House Music is to prosper, The Middle American Suburban Hip Hop community, the community that is buying most of the Hop Hop music today, needs crash course in Hip Hop and Dance Music history.

Peace

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
Interesting Derrick and JMJ.

If House is strictly a DJ's medium, Naked Music hasn't heard. They have quite a catalog available at the Apple Music Store. Naked set a great example IMO because they give the "lay consumer" (for lack of a better term) the opportunity to have essentially their entire catalog in the form of series of full-length CDs as opposed to random mixes(and very well-marketed ones i might add - presentation is key)...and then they got their hands dirty releasing all the 12-inch singles (+ bonuses) for club play by DJs who use wax.

What if every independent house music label invested in a strategy like that...pretty CDs with nearly everything on their label you could want, and then the 12"s to match for the DJs...of course Naked Music's output a few years back was nothing short of astounding...extremely prolific. Not every single one was unforgettable, but still many greats off that label. I am probably restating a bit, but consider me trying to help drive a point home...

OH yeah! Naked music had *gasp* music videos...

[ November 13, 2003, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: THX-1138 ]

[Hk]

JMJ, I concur, partially because that's what I spin, but its quite limiting to the customer to buy Vinyl only(how many consumers have quality record players). Does the word diversification ring-a-bell here...

Still, labels and producers should open it-up/diversify, for in the long run it just means more sales.

Gotta agree on the radio tip too, as I was reading an old article from Mr. Fingers who mentioned several radio shows in Chicago back in the day.

Medium seemingly is the key.

[JMJ]

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
Interesting Derrick and JMJ.

If House is strictly a DJ's medium, Naked Music hasn't heard. They have quite a catalog available at the Apple Music Store. They see the big picture. Good for them.....JMJ smile.gif

[D J 1 3 8]

Do consumers even buy CD singles anymore?

I would guess that the overwhelming majority of house music sold to consumers is strictly through compilations (label comps or dance music comps) or full albums (Chemical Bros, Daft punk, etc.).

Therefore, I don't see how the 12" market effects the consumer market in any other way than positively. Labels press 12"s stricly for DJs, who play their shit in clubs, which hopefully generates enough buzz about a track that it warrants being released on a compilation or as part of an album - thus being bought by consumers and not just DJs.

Even when people consumers did have turntables, they still mostly bought albums and compilations.

[DLow]

Originally posted by DeesKo:
Most importantly, we need people DOING it instead of talking about it or blaming everything on whether we get radio airplay or not. We complain about not having radio airplay but how many singles do you see coming out with a radio edit nowadays ?Good point. I never gave it any thought, but I rarely see radio edits for the more recent stuff that I buy. That in itself could deter a PD from playing a house single. But once a upon a time, there were radio edits on many of the house singles that came out. Anybody have an idea as to why that stopped or slowed down to the point that it has?

[DeesKo]

Originally posted by Derrick:
Good point. I never gave it any thought, but I rarely see radio edits for the more recent stuff that I buy. That in itself could deter a PD from playing a house single. But once a upon a time, there were radio edits on many of the house singles that came out. Anybody have an idea as to why that stopped or slowed down to the point that it has? My guess.... its mostly a reactionary thing.

Why waste the space on a 12" when:

Typically, DJ's aren't going to play that version.

Radio stations aren't paying for the 12" or using vinyl anyway

You're more likely to sell an extra 500 units if you contract out that space on the 12" to a popular remixer.

I'm not suggesting we need radio edits on all these peices of vinyl, because again, radio isn't using vinyl anymore, but if labels DID distributed radio edits, you would have a better chance of sliding through the cracks and getting some house on the air....

Most people listening to the radio don't want to hear 32 counts of intro/outro beats or a 64 count instrumental breakdown on the radio. Those things work great in clubs, but they lead to boring radio so in the end, it would be detrimental to the station's bottom line to play that, I can't fault them for it....

Peace

[Brian]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
Do consumers even buy CD singles anymore?
see the link to the wired article i posted above in this thread

[Friday]

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
Q - is it at all possible that the genre somehow became the domain of the DJ in the US and therefore suffered as a consumer product? Hell yeah! Way back when, it really didn't matter who was djing just that the music was out there, the vibe was there everything was om heavy rotation.

In the heyday, the dj's that were playing, played for the crowd, broke new shit and in appreciation they got a name and a following. Now jocks are coming up wanting instant claim to fame by playing the favorites, without building and kind of foundation. Over the time span, being the dj became more important then the music. Dj's being paid exuberent amounts of money to perform, it then became all about the dj, not the music.

There is no breaking of new music, only within the confines of the house set, a lot of music is not in heavy rotation any more, a song comes and it goes in a matter of a month therefore no more anthems so to speak.

The dj is now the focus and so few are willing to go out on a limb to being different and challenge a crowd. So now we have a whole lot of jocks playing the same songs to the same people and so few going against the grain because of what other jocks may say.

Because we were trying so hard to keep it real, we blocked alot of music from getting recognition by being superstars therefore the music/artists have suffered, hence the decline of house being a consumer product. It is a product for the dj's and not everyone is a superstar.

I ain't even going to touch, a dj having to be a producer too nor the decline of radio.
I don't know, I maybe I am talking shit, but that is what I see.

[D J 1 3 8]

Here's another thought:

club music has always been single driven, yet in the disco explosion, real stars were created who had club hits yet could release a full-length album and sell millions (Donna Summer, KC, etc.).

Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.

However, hip hop has changed. Hip hop artists are now signed and developed from day one with the goal of 2-3 hit singles and a full length album. They only cater to singles as a means to promote the album. Hip hop evolved it's modus operandi, perhaps house should do the same, becuz we all know that consumers would prefer to buy an album, not a single.

Not sure if this is a solution, but it's something to think about.

[Friday]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
There are too many singles, and not that many Full length albums. Too many DJs producing, and not enought musicians getting credit for the work asked by a DJ. To many singers and songwriters being overshadowed by DJs.

"DJ so and so presents"

this is so true, damn shame also.

[Friday]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry?

[Martin Red]

and another thought...
Tapes, Vinyl, CD's, MP3's, dats, originals, re-releases, domestic, import, bootleg, whitelabel, pre-release, copy, re-edit, remix, Mini Discs, Radio, Internet radio, downloads, Clubs, house, sexy house, funky house, techno, tribal, tech house, Trip Hop, Hip Hop, R&B, urban, soul, soulfull house, soulfull, garage, techno soul, i.d.m e.d.m s.w.at, electro, electro funk, disco, disco house, filtered disco house, funky filtered house, electronica, nu beat, Nu Jazz, broken beat, 2 step garage, soulfull US house, soulfull UK garage, chill out, balaeric, drum & bass, hard D&B, Brazillian D&B, latin rhythms, jazz, blues, african rhythms, Italian house, Italo disco, half step, reggae, dance hall, lovers rock, techno pop, french house, Disco D&B, lounge, acid, hard step, rap, gangster rap, gangster hip hop, easy coast, west coast, classics, rare groove, Speed Garage .........................................
................................................
................................................
........................................... ....
..............etc, etc, The comapies cetainly made it very confusing to the average consumer, perhaps the people who are selling something took it a tad too far ?

[ November 13, 2003, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Martin Red ]

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]Naked came pretty close...though no full-lengths from the likes of Lisa Shaw or Gaelle ... too bad ...

[ November 13, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: THX-1138 ]

[kev]

Originally posted by THX-1138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]Naked came pretty close...though no full-lengths from the likes of Lisa Shaw or Gaelle ... too bad ... </font>[/QUOTE]I heard an unfinished version of the Lisa Shaw album about a year ago. Stay tuned.

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by IIBS:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by THX-1138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]Naked came pretty close...though no full-lengths from the likes of Lisa Shaw or Gaelle ... too bad ... </font>[/QUOTE]I heard an unfinished version of the Lisa Shaw album about a year ago. Stay tuned. </font>[/QUOTE]that would be awesome! that label exposed heads to so much raw talent... and i am definitely looking forward to anything further from L. Shaw graemlins/grinyes.gif

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]House labels? Very very few. You see lots and lots of comps, but most of those seem to be comps of DJs that license tracks from a variety of labels.

[Friday]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]House labels? Very very few. You see lots and lots of comps, but most of those seem to be comps of DJs that license tracks from a variety of labels. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly, so we are back to the dj, not the artist, not the labels, not the masses. From what I can understand, these types of comps are to showcase the skills of the dj in order to get gigs and what not, please correct me if I am wrong. So in this case, who is listening to these comps?

Body & Soul had some nice comps out there, are they still doing that? I know they have closed the club venue, but do they still put comps out there of artists?

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by gf:
who is listening to these comps?
Mixed on CD - probably general public.
unmixed vinyl, probably D.J's and bedroom DJ's - way to save time/money buying 12"s.

graemlins/conf44.gif

[ November 13, 2003, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: Martin Red ]

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]House labels? Very very few. You see lots and lots of comps, but most of those seem to be comps of DJs that license tracks from a variety of labels. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly, so we are back to the dj, not the artist, not the labels, not the masses. From what I can understand, these types of comps are to showcase the skills of the dj in order to get gigs and what not, please correct me if I am wrong. So in this case, who is listening to these comps?

Body & Soul had some nice comps out there, are they still doing that? I know they have closed the club venue, but do they still put comps out there of artists? </font>[/QUOTE]up till i started mixeing and buying records, i was buying these compilations, and still purchase them if i hear it's good. sometimes i buy stuff for my collection that i hear on them. Body and Soul stopped, I think, at volume 4. I haven't heard any news on a vol. 5, but I'm sure many would know better than I if anything is planned smile.gif

[MusicFilter]

Originally posted by Brian:
here's an interesting article regarding the sales of music online (downloads), CD singles, and consumer preference for singles .. some excerpts:

"The Recording Industry Association of America's mid-year music statistics chart the number of music products shipped to retailers between January and June. During that time, the labels shipped 5.8 million CD singles (this year), compared with 2.2 million singles in the same period the year before. That's an increase of over 160 percent."

but then...

"In previous years, the music industry has drastically reduced the number of singles shipped. At its peak in 1997, 66.7 million CD singles were shipped to retailers. The numbers have rapidly declined since then. In 2002, the industry shipped 4.5 million singles."

here's the link:

http://www.wired.com/news/digiwood/0,1412,60282,00.html Thanks Brian. The analyst in the article has his head up his coolo.

People don't buy as many albums or CDs as they use to because out of most album you're lucky if you get 3 solid cuts.

So much money is being made on the street from compilations (various singles on one CD). I value them because I'm not buying a lot of rap or hip-hop so when I do it is more advantageous for me to buy a compilation.

Singles are going to be the next big thing and if the industry doesn't hurry up and wake up they will loose more money.

They are practically giving away recordable discs and now they are bringing out recordable DVDs the movie industry is going to get hit harder now too.

Danny
Deesko
Groove
You all have astute observations regarding this discussion and as usual JMJ has taken the words out of my mouth. hail.gif

Sometimes this page can be a wealth of information and ideas.

[K. Otembo]

WOW! Posts like this keep me coming back to this site. Thanks to all who contributed.

As someone who works on the business end of dance music industry, I truly appreciate hearing from the people what the people want and how they want to receive it. Please continue this post if you have additional suggestions, and I will link this post to as many labels and artists as I can.

[Moksha]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]House labels? Very very few. You see lots and lots of comps, but most of those seem to be comps of DJs that license tracks from a variety of labels. </font>[/QUOTE]I disagree. I get a lot of label comps. Fact is, they don't sell well. (I'd be willing to bet that even the majority of the Naked comps have really low Soundscans). All comps sales are WAY down, and of those, the DJ mixes continue to do the best.

Also, without "DJ Cuture," house music would have gone broke and died 15 years ago.

Once again, house music's "problems" in the US have nothing to do with radio, promos, or any of the other things we so easily blame them on. The core problem is: Mainstream consumers don't give a shit about house and never will, aside from am increasingly rare crossover track here or there.

House is just another genre. And even though we love it, it isn't God's gift to the ears that everyone would love if they were exposed to it. Deal with it.

[Nege]

Originally posted by Danny Gardner:
Following Tony Cano's lead...

Q - is it at all possible that the genre somehow became the domain of the DJ in the US and therefore suffered as a consumer product? This started more than 8 years ago, it's no secret.
now average vinyl sales are more like 1000 copies if you are lucky
as apposed to something like 5000 - 10,000 ten years ago.
Non-DJs do not even buy vinyl anymore as of more than 7 years ago.
therefore,
less sales.

[ November 13, 2003, 06:51 PM: Message edited by: Nege ]

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
And even though we love it, it isn't God's gift to the ears that everyone would love if they were exposed to it. Deal with it. Maybe circumstances were special in Chicago where I grew up, but my memory and history says different. Every movement possesses the potential for resurgence. That's what people on this board are looking for...attempting to decipher what occurs in society/the economy that triggers such resurgences.

[Nege]

actually nowadays it is more common for an indie release to sell under 500 copies worldwide.
and the time span of a record is also another factor.
shelf life is usually about two weeks,
a month at the most then it's on to the next thing.
that also hurts the release because no one has heard it yet in a period of two weeks or even a month.
the only way to prolong the life of that release is through licensing to different territories
because crossing over today is almost non-existant.

[ November 13, 2003, 07:00 PM: Message edited by: Nege ]

[Moksha]

Originally posted by THX-1138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
And even though we love it, it isn't God's gift to the ears that everyone would love if they were exposed to it. Deal with it. Maybe circumstances were special in Chicago where I grew up, but my memory and history says different. Every movement possesses the potential for resurgence. That's what people on this board are looking for...attempting to decipher what occurs in society/the economy that triggers such resurgences. </font>[/QUOTE]Will Renaissance harpsichord concertos make a similar resugrence? How about Protestant hats?

Yeah, it's possible. But judging the way pop culture works and the direction of trends over the last decade, I find it very unlikely. I'm sure there will be the occasional crossover, but I really don't see present or future youth cultures embracing the kind of music we like here. (There are other forms of "house" that are much more likely to gain mainstream exceptance).

P.S. The above opinion is about US success. . .Europe and Asia are a different story.

[Nege]

indies should service pools again.
unfortunately they don't nowadays.
most serviced dance music today comes from the odd track that has been licensed from an indie that has a top 40(or potential top 40) in a territory, otherwise, it's mostly Urban or pop.
Indies that service some pools
will at least give themselves exposure in a bigger market.

[DLow]

Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
Mainstream consumers don't give a shit about house and never will, aside from am increasingly rare crossover track here or there.
Agreed. But it seems that's due to the fact that house is not as accessible to the mainstream as it once was. It's sort of an out of sight out of mind thing.

[JMJ]

Originally posted by Derrick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
Mainstream consumers don't give a shit about house and never will, aside from am increasingly rare crossover track here or there.
Agreed. But it seems that's due to the fact that house is not as accessible to the mainstream as it once was. It's sort of an out of sight out of mind thing. </font>[/QUOTE]But don't we ENJOY being underground?? That seems to be the popular stance here on DHP. Underground = No one knows or cares about you, and ain't buying your shit, which makes us happy......JMJ

[Brut by Faberge]

Originally posted by JMJ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Derrick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
Mainstream consumers don't give a shit about house and never will, aside from am increasingly rare crossover track here or there.
Agreed. But it seems that's due to the fact that house is not as accessible to the mainstream as it once was. It's sort of an out of sight out of mind thing. </font>[/QUOTE]But don't we ENJOY being underground?? That seems to be the popular stance here on DHP. Underground = No one knows or cares about you, and ain't buying your shit, which makes us happy......JMJ </font>[/QUOTE]hahaha! that's the ugly truth, and it does not bother me so much. i am not in the camp of trying to saturate the airwaves and everything else with deephouse. but on the other hand i do see where people on here are coming from who want to see house at its peak once again...folks getting PAID! i see that potential, but in the vein of what Konbit wrote, I'm not holding my breath...

i wonder if crust punk and hair metal guys sit around pondering this same thing icon_rofl.gif

[And]

Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
Once again, house music's "problems" in the US have nothing to do with radio, promos, or any of the other things we so easily blame them on. The core problem is: Mainstream consumers don't give a shit about house and never will, aside from am increasingly rare crossover track here or there.

House is just another genre. And even though we love it, it isn't God's gift to the ears that everyone would love if they were exposed to it. Deal with it. Many, many times I've made this argument too. Yes there could be more done to promote the genre but let's not discredit the taste of the masses buying other forms of music. As much as we like this music and believe it is God's gift to the ears, I picture many die hard trance, hip hop heads who feel exactly the same way about their music and don't want to be talked to death about the merits of Trance. How many of you beyond going to a Trance party here and there would be willing to expend much more effort getting to know the genre? I know I'm not running to check out the next Oakey cd. I don't care. No offense to Oakey and his genre but I also understand peeps feeling the same about House.
----
I for one can't tell Jay Z from Jah Rule, I don't watch television and could probably count the number of hours I've listened to the radio this year. I don't go to big Hip Hop clubs, don't really like drinking and could care less what billboard says is top 40.
--
Perhaps part of the reason this genre isn't making the big bucks is because a larger number of the people that love it really do love it for the music. How else could we account for all the free available mixes online, the free cds we receive from Djs who pay for a good number of these records. Yeah a Dj sending me his mix is introducing me to his style of mixing ... but if he/she is sending it to me for free, I'm loathe to believe it's all about hyping themselves up. MUSIC is the draw. Otherwise why would a complete stranger buy blank cds, make a mix then pay for the postage to get it to me? If that isn't out of some deep love for music then I honestly don't know why. I start paying attention to certain Djs based on their musical taste, selection, mixing ability etc, etc. Music remains the focus, it's why I can get down to a mix that may not be technically perfect but has songs that move me.
-----
I know I've provided no answers but I'm hoping that in discussing what it is about the genre people like ideas on how to market the music more profitably will arise. Lord knows I'd like to see more artists able to live off their art.

[Nege]

Originally posted by Derrick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
Mainstream consumers don't give a shit about house and never will, aside from am increasingly rare crossover track here or there.
Agreed. But it seems that's due to the fact that house is not as accessible to the mainstream as it once was. It's sort of an out of sight out of mind thing. </font>[/QUOTE]I am sure that if a programmer had the balls to program a MAW record in heavy rotation,
it would be a commercial success.
why?
becasue it would be PROGRAMMED into the minds of the mainstream.
I agree with the "out of sight out of mind" statement.
don't forget that hip hop once had this same problem ages ago.........

[JMNYC]

Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]House labels? Very very few. You see lots and lots of comps, but most of those seem to be comps of DJs that license tracks from a variety of labels. </font>[/QUOTE]well, King Street has put out a LOT of compilations with our music catalog on them (over 1000 titles), but getting "to the masses" is very expensive as well as overwhelmingly time consuming.

We have good distribution (Studio K7!) but still have problems with product placement in stores, and it's not easy to afford promotional campaigns in the big retailers. The reason why? Because believe it or not, most of the big retailers are owned entirely or in part by the same parent companies that own the major labels.

[JMJ]

Originally posted by THX-1138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JMJ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Derrick:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
Mainstream consumers don't give a shit about house and never will, aside from am increasingly rare crossover track here or there.
Agreed. But it seems that's due to the fact that house is not as accessible to the mainstream as it once was. It's sort of an out of sight out of mind thing. </font>[/QUOTE]But don't we ENJOY being underground?? That seems to be the popular stance here on DHP. Underground = No one knows or cares about you, and ain't buying your shit, which makes us happy......JMJ </font>[/QUOTE]hahaha! that's the ugly truth, and it does not bother me so much. i am not in the camp of trying to saturate the airwaves and everything else with deephouse. but on the other hand i do see where people on here are coming from who want to see house at its peak once again...folks getting PAID! i see that potential, but in the vein of what Konbit wrote, I'm not holding my breath...

i wonder if crust punk and hair metal guys sit around pondering this same thing icon_rofl.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Your last statement says alot. That's where house could be headed if we cease to move forward.....JMJ

[Nege]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]House labels? Very very few. You see lots and lots of comps, but most of those seem to be comps of DJs that license tracks from a variety of labels. </font>[/QUOTE]well, King Street has put out a LOT of compilations with our music catalog on them (over 1000 titles), but getting "to the masses" is very expensive as well as overwhelmingly time consuming.

We have good distribution (Studio K7!) but still have problems with product placement in stores, and it's not easy to afford promotional campaigns in the big retailers. The reason why? Because believe it or not, most of the big retailers are owned entirely or in part by the same parent companies that own the major labels. </font>[/QUOTE]Innerbreeding is common in this buisness( at the major level).....

[ November 13, 2003, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Nege ]

[JMJ]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by gf:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ 138:
Hip hop began as a singles only format too. A label would release a series of singles and only put out an LP when it seemed like there was enough buzz to assemble those singles in to an album. Kinda like house artists still do to this day.
Question, how many labels out there are putting out compilations of their artists tracks on one album? I mean promoting them out to the masses, not within the industry? </font>[/QUOTE]House labels? Very very few. You see lots and lots of comps, but most of those seem to be comps of DJs that license tracks from a variety of labels. </font>[/QUOTE]well, King Street has put out a LOT of compilations with our music catalog on them (over 1000 titles), but getting "to the masses" is very expensive as well as overwhelmingly time consuming.

We have good distribution (Studio K7!) but still have problems with product placement in stores, and it's not easy to afford promotional campaigns in the big retailers. The reason why? Because believe it or not, most of the big retailers are owned entirely or in part by the same parent companies that own the major labels. </font>[/QUOTE]Collusion.......JMJ :(

[assholes delight]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
Something to think about. Since the advent of MTV, Record labels not only had to rush to get their product out, but they had to find more cash to create music videos.

House Music was on the right track with making videos, ie Crystal Waters, Michael Watford, Frankie Knuckles, etc. But I also believe that AMERICAN culture killed House Music's progression. Because of House Music's history, homophobia in America during the early 90s was not going away. The walls of American Sexuality and beliefs are beginning to break down but it's too little too late for House Music. So the music's only top purchaser was the DJ, and now I believe that the DJ is a major part in the deterioation of the music and the mixing. So in essense, it was inevitable.

One thing to think about. We cannot seperate ourselves from Hip Hop culture, especially in the New York market. House and Hip Hop were literally one in the same until the Thug Mentality took over Hip Hop. True and for some reason that last part never gets mentioned. Anyone remember the hip hop compilations on Polydor from the late 80's to early 90's called 'Rap Traxx'? By the 4th they had to change the name to 'Rap n House' to accomodate it's popularity at the time (early 90's).
Back then no one knew whether House would take off or Hip Hop would die. Turns out Hip Hop went thug and prospered (commercially), while house branched out and diluted for the most part.

[Shalewa]

Economics and culture are often at odds. What all of this ahistorical, navel gazing and
naysaying is
missing is that the economic crisis while affecting the creative side of the culture (artists need to eat too) has not come close to killing it. I said it before and I'll say it again, I KNOW THAT BRILLIANT MUSIC IS BEING MADE. I KNOW THAT THIS MUSIC IS INSPIRING AND RESHAPING CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN DANCE. There exists today a culture that is still dynamic and important. I am not the world's most mercenary person, true enough and my life/professional/creative choices certainly reflect an ordering of priorities far different from most of the people repeating themselves to each other in this conversation and the spate of parallel threads but the determination that since the returns are not high enough to suit you the thing is dead is for want of a better term- WACK!!! Wake up the shift from hot trend to niche genre happened over half a generation ago. Why don't y'all chew on this model--Swing:Bop:: House(then):House(now). Not dead. Different. Not mainstream. Dynamic center and soundtrack to a host of creative movements. The culture is still alive and is still growing.

PS. I think it interesting that the Frankensteins created by the purposeful marketing of DJ paraphernalia (including the 12 inch, and loads of label logo'ed knick-knacks) to would be DJs are now recognizing that the independent labels' ploy to extract thousands and thousands of dollars from them over the years might have been short-sighted since none of them has evolved into the second-coming and re-ignited the flame of all-night disco madness under the feet and asses of the dancing masses. While we can't get absolutely everything, there are lots of compilations/commercial mixes available to the interested non-DJ buyer at any Tower or HMV or online at Amazon. There are also mountains and mountains of mixtapes/CDs in circulation. People who want it know how to get it.

[Moksha]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
The culture is still alive and is still growing.
alive, yes. growing, no.

[kayotv]

Phonograph makers (Technics, Vestax etc...) should probably get with actually independent labels and market turntables to consumers. It would be an advertising ploy that would encompass audiophiles, dj's, producers of the music. They would be the spokespersons for the actual progression of the music. It would be great to see ad campaigns for phonographs and vinly itself on commercials, billboards, movie commericals now and so on.

This would then make the general consumer of music aware that there are actually vinlys and turntables still being produced. They are pushing the digital age on the consumers (cd, dvd players,iPod, napster, downloading), still I believe there are consumers of music that would appreciate recorded music education via marketing and promotions of the generes of music produced for such a medium, vinly.

There are many ways to get this message across to the general public. 1- You have a choice that you totally forgot about 2-nostalgia (sp) 3- Its just way cool and many more

In that, If consumers don't know it exsists they have no clue on where to get things they don't even know that they want. Its simple on paper, but it could be done with a good budget. Obviously there must not be enough money in the budgets for such matters. Or, the profiit margin for the companys just isn't there for them.

Promotions of music starts and begins with the people who make it. Until, we the folks who comprise this scene (collective) show the "big money," spenders that we can make a difference and make them a profit, we will be speaking about the same thing til we do something about it.

jus my 2 cents
k!

[Shalewa]

Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shalewa:
The culture is still alive and is still growing.
alive, yes. growing, no. </font>[/QUOTE]You are wrong. The HEART of contemporary dance is in the underground dance music community. Who woulda thunk it, but new fans/devotees/consumers are being made everyday by hanging out in dance studios instead of in bars with turntables...

[GROOVE VICTIM]

How can you compare 30 to 40 new devotees a day or a week to two million new devotees a day by changing the channel to MTV and BET or their favorite RnB/Hip Hop radio station?


Peace

[ November 14, 2003, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[mhd]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
How can you compare 30 to 40 new devotees a day or a week to two million new devotees a day by changing the channel to MTV and BET or their favorite RnB/Hip Hop radio station?


Peace that's where you make your mistake, by comparing

[mhd]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Orion : Konbit:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shalewa:
The culture is still alive and is still growing.
alive, yes. growing, no. </font>[/QUOTE]You are wrong. The HEART of contemporary dance is in the underground dance music community. Who woulda thunk it, but new fans/devotees/consumers are being made everyday by hanging out in dance studios instead of in bars with turntables... </font>[/QUOTE]everyday and underground, as it should be

[TAD]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
Economics and culture are often at odds. What all of this ahistorical, navel gazing and
naysaying is
missing is that the economic crisis while affecting the creative side of the culture (artists need to eat too) has not come close to killing it. I said it before and I'll say it again, I KNOW THAT BRILLIANT MUSIC IS BEING MADE. I KNOW THAT THIS MUSIC IS INSPIRING AND RESHAPING CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN DANCE. There exists today a culture that is still dynamic and important. I am not the world's most mercenary person, true enough and my life/professional/creative choices certainly reflect an ordering of priorities far different from most of the people repeating themselves to each other in this conversation and the spate of parallel threads but the determination that since the returns are not high enough to suit you the thing is dead is for want of a better term- WACK!!! Wake up the shift from hot trend to niche genre happened over half a generation ago. Why don't y'all chew on this model--Swing:Bop:: House(then):House(now). Not dead. Different. Not mainstream. Dynamic center and soundtrack to a host of creative movements. The culture is still alive and is still growing.

PS. I think it interesting that the Frankensteins created by the purposeful marketing of DJ paraphernalia (including the 12 inch, and loads of label logo'ed knick-knacks) to would be DJs are now recognizing that the independent labels' ploy to extract thousands and thousands of dollars from them over the years might have been short-sighted since none of them has evolved into the second-coming and re-ignited the flame of all-night disco madness under the feet and asses of the dancing masses. While we can't get absolutely everything, there are lots of compilations/commercial mixes available to the interested non-DJ buyer at any Tower or HMV or online at Amazon. There are also mountains and mountains of mixtapes/CDs in circulation. People who want it know how to get it. BAM!!!! hail.gif

[Shalewa]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
How can you compare 30 to 40 new devotees a day or a week to two million new devotees a day by changing the channel to MTV and BET or their favorite RnB/Hip Hop radio station?


Peace Your numbers are arbitrary but that is waaayyyy beside my point which is that THE CULTURE IS NOT DEAD. I don't particularly value the commercial criteria by which the vitality or mortality of this culture is being measured by you. From my perspective a lot of the HOUSE IS DEAD talk amounts to I AM NOT GETTING PAID talk. I have a deep personal interest in seeing that all artists get paid for their work and some of the people closest to me depend on this industry for their support so I cannot say I don't care if no one gets paid but I can say I don't care if it never happens by conforming to the marketing model of popular culture. There is an audience of adults who appreciate music that is deep who don't know that they might like this stuff who when go to see artists like Ron Brown or Rennie Harris or Nia Love or their child's recital and want to know about the music and participate in the dance and people can't see that because they are so busy sitting shiva, saying novenas and lighting candles over THEIR PERSONAL FAILURE to realize their glory moment in this culture. There is stuff happening out in the wider world that if people were serious about succeeding(commercially even) they would make themselves aware of and move away from singing dirges to fostering that which is franly thriving. For allegedly creative folks y'all are stuck squarely in the box...

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
How can you compare 30 to 40 new devotees a day or a week to two million new devotees a day by changing the channel to MTV and BET or their favorite RnB/Hip Hop radio station?


Peace that's where you make your mistake, by comparing </font>[/QUOTE]But when it comes to profits, this is how the execs make the decision whether to shut down a label, such as Stricly Rhythm that was bought out by a major record label, or to keep that label.

A comparison has to be a contributing factor, you just can't go on the definition of the "Underground" alone, especially in these days and times.

Peace

[TAD]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
There is an audience of adults who appreciate music that is deep who don't know that they might like this stuff....i am a witness to this every week.

[mhd]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
How can you compare 30 to 40 new devotees a day or a week to two million new devotees a day by changing the channel to MTV and BET or their favorite RnB/Hip Hop radio station?


Peace that's where you make your mistake, by comparing </font>[/QUOTE]But when it comes to profits, this is how the execs make the decision whether to shut down a label, such as Stricly Rhythm that was bought out by a major record label, or to keep that label.

A comparison has to be a contributing factor, you just can't go on the definition of the "Underground" alone, especially in these days and times.

Peace </font>[/QUOTE]another mistake, putting your creative destiny in the hands of "execs", this was made by and for the underground, so that "execs" and to an extent, profits were not part of the equation

[GROOVE VICTIM]

I agree with you MHD on the "Exec" issue, I knew something bad was going to come out of the purchasing of Strictly Rhythm.

I also think that the practices of Underground Labels are forcing them to dig their own grave by satisfying DJs first, and the dancers and fans second. It's not written in stone that all labels are doing this and some progress has been made, Wave Music for example, but to cater to a group of people that have total control over what the masses will hear, and not giving them an option of what they want to hear, or not giving them an option to hear other types of music, is a catalyst to the music and the scene IMO.

Peace

[ November 14, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[DeesKo]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
Your numbers are arbitrary but that is waaayyyy beside my point which is that THE CULTURE IS NOT DEAD. I don't particularly value the commercial criteria by which the vitality or mortality of this culture is being measured by you. From my perspective a lot of the HOUSE IS DEAD talk amounts to I AM NOT GETTING PAID talk. I have a deep personal interest in seeing that all artists get paid for their work and some of the people closest to me depend on this industry for their support so I cannot say I don't care if no one gets paid but I can say I don't care if it never happens by conforming to the marketing model of popular culture. There is an audience of adults who appreciate music that is deep who don't know that they might like this stuff who when go to see artists like Ron Brown or Rennie Harris or Nia Love or their child's recital and want to know about the music and participate in the dance and people can't see that because they are so busy sitting shiva, saying novenas and lighting candles over THEIR PERSONAL FAILURE to realize their glory moment in this culture. There is stuff happening out in the wider world that if people were serious about succeeding(commercially even) they would make themselves aware of and move away from singing dirges to fostering that which is franly thriving. For allegedly creative folks y'all are stuck squarely in the box... I must admit that regardless of my banter this week, I firmy agree with the sentiment that the money and sales figures of mass corporate america should not necessarily be the definitive measuring stick of success for this realm of reality.

I also agree that one thing that makes this music special is the lack of commercial corniness.

I also don't think house is dead.

I do think it is in a period of recession, if for no other reason than the fact that there probably are tons of people out there who would thoroughly enjoy this music and what this environment has to offer who don't even know it exists. There are people out there waiting to be touched and its our fault that they don't even realize we're here.


Peace

[julian_kelly]

I think house is too reliant on Dj's and it isnt good. Actually, house relies exclusively on the Dj. Take away house Djs and you have nothing...the average person would never hear the music. Take away the Dj/music selector in a music like Hip Hop or Jazz and you still have other ways to hear and learn the music, ie. accessible Cds, records, cultural critics, cultural institutions that promote the artform, documented history, etc.

If we look at the huge scope of things, there really arent any consistent house venues that do something EVERY weekend to really influence things...of course there are 'one-off' parties, but they arent consistent...there is really no avenue for the average person to hear good house music put down outside of a Dj. If the culture relies predominately on a Dj to build the culture, it overlooks the other areas in which folk can build a culture.

Its already established that the main way to hear house is from a Dj at a party, but outside of maybe Ny, NJ, Dc, Chicago, California, Atlanta, where can you hear house consistently spun by a Dj? No Dj, no music, not good.

On a large scale, there arent many club atmospheres for people to hear house music put on by a good dj. I think before we state that folk need to hear a good Dj, there have to be clubs, venues and radio stations in order for Djs to play. We have 1,000 Dj's but only like 5 opportunities graemlins/rofl.gif

People who live in a city where they can hear house any weekend have an extremely skewed perception on how the scene really is in the United States.

Think about places like Missippi, Alabama, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas, Ohio, Nevada, Indiana, Arkansas, Oregon, Hawaii, Oklahoma, Iowa, West Virgina, New Mexico, Wisconsin, Kentucky, Missouri, North Dakota, South Dakota, Tennessee, Idaho, Maine, Vermont, Kansas....tons of states around the US that (to my knowledge) have no CONSISTENT mediums in which folk can hear the music. These cities dont have any Djs in which to hear the music graemlins/rofl.gif so how are they gonna hear it? How will they hear it, to like it, to think about throwing a party so folk can dance and enjoy it?

We see posts all the time on DHP.."Im goin to X...where can I hear some house?" They reply is always "Theres nothin goin on" or "Nothing is goin on the weekend you're coming...but something is happening next month..or you just missed it, we had something two weeks ago."

I wonder if the house community can even name 100 spots in all of the US that CONSISTENTLY play house music. People want underground....less than 100 spots in the entire US that consistently play house is rrreeeeeeeeealllly underground. graemlins/rofl.gif there is a lot of room for expansion before house even things about becoming commercial graemlins/rofl.gif

So if you live outside of a major city, how are you gonna hear the music? The DJ is the exclusive way to hear the music and theres no Dj in your city.

There is no club in your area.

There may be a local jock, but he only does stuff once every blue moon...so getting the opportunity to hear him is a crap shoot. The local jock may have a gig in a bar or small club for two months, but he loses it for whatever reason and hes 'jobless indefinitely' graemlins/rofl.gif

You wont hear the music on the radio.

You wont see any mention of it on tv.

There wont be any mention of it on public tv or public radio (like reggae, blues, jazz, or classical music)

Theres a slim to none chance you will hear it on college radio...but only if you live in a major city.

There are NO major magazies that promote the music. Reggae has several mags...trance techo has mags...Jazz has mags....Blues has mags...classical has mags. House music has NO printed magazine to exclusively preserve House culture.

You wont hear it on the net because you dont know it exhists. The average person doesnt go on the net and seek out hearing new types of music.

So basically, the only way for the common man to hear house (outside of a dj) is to 'by fate' or 'chance' be introduced to it by a friend, stranger, etc. who might have a tape or a cd....then if you want to know more, youre OBLIGATED to go back to your friend for more info, or seek out info yourself. Often its up to you to find out about the music with no assistence from any person or other avenue. Now this is reeeeeeeeeeallllllllly underground graemlins/rofl.gif

You get on the net and do a search on 'house' and see what you come up with. You might end up on DHP, you might end up and a site put up by a kid who sucks wwho just got started yesterday.

Or you go to the dance section of a record store and blindly buy tunes until you find something you like. In a city where house isnt regular, you go to Tower Records to the dance section and on display you'll see Teisto, Sasha, et al, and maybe Naked on display. There are 100's of dance cds, but what do you get? Whats hot? You really have to guess because you have no frame of reference. There isnt a 'Dancetracks, Dusty Groove, Hot Jams' type store in all 50 states graemlins/rofl.gif ) so you might not have access to a record store person who can steer you to what you may like.

If you choose to go onlne, how in the world would you find out about online stores? Only if you luck up on a search or a messageboard like DHP. If it wasnt for the net, I wouldnt have heard about online record stores or dancetrack.

So to be in line with Danny's question....house is SOLELY reliant on the DJ...theres no other way for folk to hear the music. Outside of the DJ, there are really no other individuals who are even knowledgeable enough to buy the music...and being solely reliant on the Dj is NOT a good thing.

If you look at a genere like jazz, they are 'underground' but healthy to an extent...jazz does have its issues, but they have millions of jazz lovers all over the US. Every major city in the US has a Jazz radio station. Jazz has folk in the forefront like Marsalis spreading the culture to the masses. JAzz history is documented and preserved. There are enough accesible avenues in which the average person can hear jazz and learn about it. There are cultural jazz associations in every major city of the United States. You can catch or hear about a Jazz festival every blue moon. People are taught about the music in school. Jazz has different mediums in which folk can hear the music and it doesnt rely strictly on Djs.

The second biggest influence outide of the DJ in house is the internet. If it were not for the net, house would REEEALY be hurting. Many folk outside of major house cities learn about house tunes, record stores, artists from the net. If youre not in a major house city and the internet isnt available and you want to hear house or find out about it, youre basically assed out.

I think one solution to a culture being extremely reliant on the Dj is an economic revival and which individuals and groups build wealth/businesses (of any type...inside or outside of house or the music industry) ... and utilize the profit from business ventures to build house music venues, studios, print media doccumenting house, cultural institutions etc. in areas throught the US. The individuals in different areas share information and resources like folk in rave culture.

Rave culture became huge because folks in different cities shared resources. In the rave heyday, it was nothing every weekend for kids to travel a few hundred miles to different cities for a party...'you come to my city to hear this Dj...im comin to your city next week to hear your Dj' ....pockets of five or six cities that supported each others events and built a thriving culture.....house doesnt have this type of 'sharing of resources mentality' on a large scale among cities.

Nevertheless, in building wealth and injecting it into many areas of the house community, you can finance, cultivate and preserve the epressions of writers, dancers, cultural critics, dancers, djs, clubs, traditional radio, internet radio, tv, etc.

Now you have a culture in which the dancer, dj, cultural critic, club owner, etc. can determine the 'fate' or house and not simply the DJ.

House may or may not be dead, but we can make some major improvements graemlins/rofl.gif

julian kelly

[TAD]

wow take away the dj in hip hop? that's like removing one wheel from a car.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by Cosmic_Twin:
wow take away the dj in hip hop? that's like removing one wheel from a car. I heard some Black Eyed Peas today. Didn't need the DJ for that.

The DJ in Hip Hop is a member of the band. The DJ in House is a DELIVERY MECHANISM.

[mhd]

Originally posted by DeesKo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shalewa:
Your numbers are arbitrary but that is waaayyyy beside my point which is that THE CULTURE IS NOT DEAD. I don't particularly value the commercial criteria by which the vitality or mortality of this culture is being measured by you. From my perspective a lot of the HOUSE IS DEAD talk amounts to I AM NOT GETTING PAID talk. I have a deep personal interest in seeing that all artists get paid for their work and some of the people closest to me depend on this industry for their support so I cannot say I don't care if no one gets paid but I can say I don't care if it never happens by conforming to the marketing model of popular culture. There is an audience of adults who appreciate music that is deep who don't know that they might like this stuff who when go to see artists like Ron Brown or Rennie Harris or Nia Love or their child's recital and want to know about the music and participate in the dance and people can't see that because they are so busy sitting shiva, saying novenas and lighting candles over THEIR PERSONAL FAILURE to realize their glory moment in this culture. There is stuff happening out in the wider world that if people were serious about succeeding(commercially even) they would make themselves aware of and move away from singing dirges to fostering that which is franly thriving. For allegedly creative folks y'all are stuck squarely in the box... I must admit that regardless of my banter this week, I firmy agree with the sentiment that the money and sales figures of mass corporate america should not necessarily be the definitive measuring stick of success for this realm of reality.

I also agree that one thing that makes this music special is the lack of commercial corniness.

I also don't think house is dead.

I do think it is in a period of recession, if for no other reason than the fact that there probably are tons of people out there who would thoroughly enjoy this music and what this environment has to offer who don't even know it exists. There are people out there waiting to be touched and its our fault that they don't even realize we're here.


Peace </font>[/QUOTE]think about your last two sentences, i hear this sentiment a lot on dhp, and i never understood the need to proselityze or convert

[AudioExpression]

yo peepee

zzzzzzzzzzzzzz


http://www.statuskuo.com/temp/mfm/TTS.jpg

[Mark Herring]

I am one of the people who buys music every week. I have been doing it for many moons. I love dance music as well as many other types of music. the reason I love it because it is free. as in you or I or anyone for that matter can do this. now some do it better than others but that is the beauty of it. you have to walk before you crawl. dj's today and yesterday go through a learning process first the music then the business. without dj's there would be no house period. before house there was disco. this type of music (house) was brought to the front because of the dj's. if I had never gone to the loft I would never have learned about that type of music in that way. david mancuso when he started was not what he is today. that came from a learning process that came in time. frankie crocker on wbls taught a whole generation on the records he selected. dj culture and house culture are one and the same. because they both address the exchange of ideas.