mixing with troublesome tunes

[beaniboy67]

Hi guys ive been djing for about 4 months and have got a good grip of my tables and when to drop my records!!I can match my beats 98%of the time and no when to drop my record (no guitars with guitars ,no vocals with vocals et ect).I also have the 32 beat thing mastered(when the record changes both change together).

The problem i am having is when i go to play some of new records.Some of the tracks i bought just dont seem to want to mix with any others.Fair enough i no some records just wont blend well but some are just impossible to get a decent smooth mix with.

Is there any remeidies for this or is it accepted that when u want to play one of these records that youre mix has to be cut short or that you have to sacrifice and just accept a mediocre blend.

Do any djs here every play a record till the end just so they can play a tune they realli want to play but cant mix it in next??

I have about a good few records that i think i cant mix correctly!!

here is a few examples.I can beat these records but they seem to come in very quick after a few beats or have strange intro's.Its a shame to have to play these records first in a set and to be honest sometimes this may nt be appropriatte. :D

v - in time

musiq - half crazy(white label remix)

jasper st company - another day- blaze remix

keith thompson project -rythm of life part 2- t humphries mix

Be great if anyone could give me any advice on this subject in general!!

[simon b]

IMO There's nothing wrong with a quick cut or echoing it out once in a while and starting a new record from the begining. Certain records really lend themeselves to this style and almost require it. That fast juxtatposition can create a nice bit of drama and really catch people's attention.

[beaniboy67]

cheers Simon.I also dont mind if people do little quick fades or just blend out a record in this way(aslong as its not every mix)and im sure a lot of big well known Djs, are also a lot less fidgity or cticial of their mixes in a club than on a mix cd.

I suppose i just thot it would be cool to ask people about their view on a subject like this.Especially ona site where a lot of the DJs are well known and respected!!

cum on guys give us youre opinion!!

graemlins/respekt.gif

[Ronnie Ron]

Trust your ear, if its not fitting right then try another record. or if your trying to change the pace a bit, do a quick mix.


R-R

[djLesCole]

beaniboy67, to be honest with you, it sounds like you're concentrating too much on certain rules you may have heard or read. I think you'll do much better, much faster, if you just play what you feel. Of course, you don't want vocals running on top of other vocals, but the time may come where you will be in such a zone that you can have vocals almost talk to each other.
Mixing is just a comination of practice and a love for what you're playing.

[Ronnie Ron]

Whats up Les Cole

graemlins/respekt.gif

[JMNYC]

I agree with Les & R-R... don't try to force things to work. One of the joys of playing is finding the records that fit together - like a jigsaw puzzle - without having to force any corner pieces to fit into the center of the puzzle. There is a time & place for every track, you just have to take the time to find the place. If you REALLY think the records belong together then either let the records speak for themselves (i.e., cuts, fades, let the record end and bring in the 2nd one) or use technical "tricks" (scratch, backspin, echo, etc.) to "make" the mix work (the first option focuses more on the music and the second focuses more on your skills, so choose wisely).

Cheers.

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
I agree with Les & R-R... don't try to force things to work. One of the joys of playing is finding the records that fit together - like a jigsaw puzzle - without having to force any corner pieces to fit into the center of the puzzle. There is a time & place for every track, you just have to take the time to find the place. If you REALLY think the records belong together then either let the records speak for themselves (i.e., cuts, fades, let the record end and bring in the 2nd one) or use technical "tricks" (scratch, backspin, echo, etc.) to "make" the mix work (the first option focuses more on the music and the second focuses more on your skills, so choose wisely).

Cheers. Thanks a lot JMNYC.You are right.Basically since i started playing i have been concentrating on buying the vinyl and pieces i really like.At first i was just trying to get to grips with matching the beats .Once i had that mastered i started concentrating on dropping my records at the right time.i suppose this thread was me looking for more tips.

Ive probably been doing what u2 have been saying already(cueing a record then finding it doesnt feel right or cueing a record then thinking "no i want to try another cos it might sound better".

Cheers for the advice!!!
ive also been choosing wisely with my purchases and im building up a nice wee selection.


hee is some of the things ive bought this last week or 2!!

AVALON feat EMMA LANDFORD: Take Me Higher (repress) (Susu)

BILLIE: It Comes Back Around (The Pound Boys remixes) (Nervous US

BOYS & GIRLS featuring MAX FEDELE: Guitar Experience (Pipe's Records)

CERRONE: The Only One (Jamie Lewis remix) (Malligator France)

D'AMBROSIO, Bobby with KELLI SAE & ROBYN SMALL: Optimistic (Definity US)

FERRER, Dennis: Ghetto Discotek Building (Madhouse US)

HAJI, Seamus presents MEKKAH: Race Of Survival (Soul Love)

LAURENCE, Brent featuring CLAY ACOX & MAUREEN PARKER: Spirit (Black Vinyl)

LET IT BE: Let It Be (unknown label US)

MUSAPHIA, Joey feat LISA MILLETT: You Are The Best (Refunkt)

OSUNLADE presents ERRO: Change For Me (Joey Negro mixes) (Z)

POUND BOYS feat YVONNE BROWN: Shinin (Joey Musaphia remixes) (Look At You
US)

SOUL SWITCH feat MELI'SA MORGAN: Don't Say Love (West End US)

STATON, Candi: Bouncing Back (React)

WINANS, Bebe: Thank You (Atlantic US)

sharon phillips - touch me

floetry -say yes

kim english - treat me right

soulplanet jaz ensemble - sugar baby darling

jamaica underground feat john lewis - love existing

dennis ferrer - reach for freedom

Thanks again!! graemlins/respekt.gif

[JMNYC]

"Expressing a talent is not a rational-mind activity. As artists or musicians or dancers, we do not think about what colors to select or notes to play or movements to make. We allow ourselves to be totally intuitive, letting the infinite supply of creative energy move freely through us. We release any sense of limitation. The activity is one of freedom and joy, not thought and effort." - Arnold M. Patent, author "You Can Have It All"

[Prince HiFi]

A good practice approach is, without headphones, just ride records together to ridiculous extremes, vocal on vocal, through different musical parts, lose the beat, pitch ride, find the beat, start again, throw a different record on, cue, drop and ride, volume drop through parts and bring it back at other parts. What I'm saying is by practicing through all this racket you quickly learn how to recognize and make good transitions in different circumstances. Also the best thing I ever did to improve my mixing was to always practice without headphones. At other times I just listen to and enjoy my records while doing other things (yes, dishes graemlins/rofl.gif )

Prince HiFi

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
"Expressing a talent is not a rational-mind activity. As artists or musicians or dancers, we do not think about what colors to select or notes to play or movements to make. We allow ourselves to be totally intuitive, letting the infinite supply of creative energy move freely through us. We release any sense of limitation. The activity is one of freedom and joy, not thought and effort." - Arnold M. Patent, author "You Can Have It All" graemlins/grinyes.gif

d

[Mah'chew]

I know exactly what you're saying and would again argue that now you've learnt the basis of composing a mix and are in tune with the timing of records - then you need to let go, a bit like when a football manager says to his star striker, "just go out there and enjoy yourself and more importantly express yourself.."

You will find that some records will not fit with others, this could be because of any number of things, from genre, syncapation, too far appart in time values (one's -4 the other's +6) , different keys, etc... Which is a whole lot of new stuff to worry about I know, but the key is not to worry - if stuff doesn't fit right, then it's not meant to be, if you feel that it does fit, but doesn't mix, then don't mix, run it out, or drop an effect, or drop the EQ and quick mix..

At the end of the day you should be playing what you feel, when you feel and don't let technique or perceived rules hold you back from playing your next piece of music - get it out there..

BTW I learnt this on DHP graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[ August 16, 2003, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: Mah'chew ]

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by Mah'chew:
I know exactly what you're saying and would again argue that now you've learnt the basis of composing a mix and are in tune with the timing of records - then you need to let go, a bit like when a football manager says to his star striker, "just go out there and enjoy yourself and more importantly express yourself.."

You will find that some records will not fit with others, this could be because of any number of things, from genre, syncapation, too far appart in time values (one's -4 the other's +6) , different keys, etc... Which is a whole lot of new stuff to worry about I know, but the key is not to worry - if stuff doesn't fit right, then it's not meant to be, if you feel that it does fit, but doesn't mix, then don't mix, run it out, or drop an effect, or drop the EQ and quick mix..

At the end of the day you should be playing what you feel, when you feel and don't let technique or perceived rules hold you back from playing your next piece of music - get it out there..

BTW I learnt this on DHP graemlins/thumbsup.gif Cheers m8 thanks for the advice!!I no what youre saying about playing what you feel.A lot of the time id like to play a record thats in my mind but when i go for it its just not happening in the phones!Im going to get an efx unit soon but firstly im going to start playing around more with cuts and stuff.I might also try a little more of the small fast blends maybe even trying sum mixes without beats but just usinfg the eqs.

Ive noticed on a lot of mixes on this site that sum Djs especially when playing older house and disco will mix without beats and just do small smooth transitions!!

Im defo gonna try this more(even in records i no i can mix perfectly beating)

[Querck]

I would say that for the most part, if the mix is giving you trouble, than it's just not meant to be. If you want your sets to flow and build energy, then it is essential to program tunes that are compatible with one annother. This is why it is so important to know your records in and out--you can tell within a few seconds if they are compatible.

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by dannyboy:
I would say that for the most part, if the mix is giving you trouble, than it's just not meant to be. If you want your sets to flow and build energy, then it is essential to program tunes that are compatible with one annother. This is why it is so important to know your records in and out--you can tell within a few seconds if they are compatible. yeh i no what you mean!Since ive been spinning ive noticed with a lot of clubby house stuff that it is a lot easier to have seamless tight mixes than it is with balearic stuff for example or older disco stuff and classics.Im actually listening to a Timmy Richardson mix right now and a lot of the stuff hes mixing he isnt beat matching at all.Hes just cutting it up and doing sharp quick fades.Its pretty impresssive to be honest.David Mancuso also does a lot of mixes where he doesnt beat match but just stops the record and drops in another.When i was in ibiza back in 93 jose padilla was doing the same at cafe del mar.

I just thot it would be intresting to see what some of the other guys thought about this kind of mixing.

From what ive seen before some people would prefer to play having a full flow of perfectly matched beats and progressions and others just play the record they want to play regardless. :D

[JMNYC]

it's funny ... I think most people when they start to mix (especially nowadays) think it's all about getting their mixes really, really tight. After they struggle through really learning how to get the mix tight, then then realize that the mix is infinitely less important that the track selection.

Props to Mah'chew for pointing out the specific causes of trainwrecks and/or not-so-tight mixes though ... I think the point is that eventually these become more intuitive. Then you pay more attention to the music (which is how it should be).

[ August 16, 2003, 10:57 PM: Message edited by: JMNYC ]

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
"Expressing a talent is not a rational-mind activity. As artists or musicians or dancers, we do not think about what colors to select or notes to play or movements to make. We allow ourselves to be totally intuitive, letting the infinite supply of creative energy move freely through us. We release any sense of limitation. The activity is one of freedom and joy, not thought and effort." - Arnold M. Patent, author "You Can Have It All" I pled in a indie phycadelicband for 7 years and i have to disagree to a certain extent on what patent says!!If i had not thought of what notes to play during a gig then i would have been playing out of tune with everyone else!!Maybe on the word of creating a musical piece you can have totall freedom and joy!Whether this can be applied to The subject of mixing im not sure.After all there has to be some sort of discipline!!

Thanks for the statement you pasted tho cos it did speak some truth!! :D

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
it's funny ... I think most people when they start to mix (especially nowadays) think it's all about getting their mixes really, really tight. After they struggle through really learning how to get the mix tight, then then realize that the mix is infinitely less important that the track selection.

Props to Mah'chew for pointing out the specific causes of trainwrecks and/or not-so-tight mixes though ... I think the point is that eventually these become more intuitive. Then you pay more attention to the music (which is how it should be). i agree with you completely on the subject of selection as when i play a record as i usually play the record in my head or a part of it before i play it.Its good to hear people of youre caliber saying stuff like that tho as it kinda takes the heat off being mad with the skills on the tables!!

[JMNYC]

beaniboy, wouldn't you agree that when playing an instrument, truly mastering the technical side translates into exactly what the Patent quote is talking about? I'm pretty sure Hendrix wasn't thinking "okay, now I should play an A Flat" - he let himself be used as a vehicle for the music to flow through.

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
beaniboy, wouldn't you agree that when playing an instrument, truly mastering the technical side translates into exactly what the Patent quote is talking about? I'm pretty sure Hendrix wasn't thinking "okay, now I should play an A Flat" - he let himself be used as a vehicle for the music to flow through. Yeh u are correct truely mastering the instrument is when u can do the technical things without thinking about it and then just let youre creative side take over.Whether i have mastered the technical side of things or ever will is a different matter lol.But hopefully im improving!!! :D

[JMNYC]

Originally posted by beaniboy67:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JMNYC:
beaniboy, wouldn't you agree that when playing an instrument, truly mastering the technical side translates into exactly what the Patent quote is talking about? I'm pretty sure Hendrix wasn't thinking "okay, now I should play an A Flat" - he let himself be used as a vehicle for the music to flow through. Yeh u are correct truely mastering the instrument is when u can do the technical things without thinking about it and then just let youre creative side take over.Whether i have mastered the technical side of things or ever will is a different matter lol.But hopefully im improving!!! :D </font>[/QUOTE]The whole point is that you continue to work towards that mastery. The same could be said of someone "of my calibur" graemlins/lol.gif .

[ August 16, 2003, 11:20 PM: Message edited by: JMNYC ]

[Mah'chew]

To hear David play takes it to a whole new level, the music fits together perfectly taking in all kinds of genres and sonic soundscapes and no records are ridden over one another. Like Jolyon's latest mix as well, when you have a good collection of music it would be a crime not play them, so what if they don't mix..

I had this converstaion with Lyot I believe, I think it's the European desease, too much emphasis is put on the technical aspect of mixing - beats are tight, mixing in the second break that most 4/4 house & some disco records have.

I was the same, gotta keep it tight, phase those beats on the break, ride the mix for at least 8 bars, it's a UK thing. Then you start to dig out the Disco and Live Drummer records and see where that gets you, yes some will ride, but you need to know that it's not a drum machine and the fills are are somebody freestyling on the drums

Since coming on DHP, I've heard David play a set live and was in awe at how different the same records I had at home sounded when he played them, I learnt that the break that I was mixing the hell out of is for the dancers (try it yourself - go out dancing: yes the track moves you, yes the melody and hook is sick, but I'll wager that it's the break that's moving your ass the most, it's the soul of the record) so play the breaks..

I think the key is to loosen up and take some chances.

Look at Picaso for example, he was extremely acomplished at classical drawing, his drawings from his college days were almost like photographs, but how do we remember him??? For taking chances and making people ask questions about art, he gave us a whole new direction by creating his own rules...

[ August 16, 2003, 11:28 PM: Message edited by: Mah'chew ]

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by beaniboy67:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JMNYC:
beaniboy, wouldn't you agree that when playing an instrument, truly mastering the technical side translates into exactly what the Patent quote is talking about? I'm pretty sure Hendrix wasn't thinking "okay, now I should play an A Flat" - he let himself be used as a vehicle for the music to flow through. Yeh u are correct truely mastering the instrument is when u can do the technical things without thinking about it and then just let youre creative side take over.Whether i have mastered the technical side of things or ever will is a different matter lol.But hopefully im improving!!! :D </font>[/QUOTE]The whole point is that you continue to work towards that mastery. The same could be said of someone "of my calibur" graemlins/lol.gif . </font>[/QUOTE]graemlins/respekt.gif graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[JMNYC]

Excellent points... which do you think Picasso thought was more brilliant? We are so often our own worst critics - when we cease to judge ourselves we get one step closer to being at one with the music (or so I've heard).

[ August 16, 2003, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: JMNYC ]

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by Mah'chew:
To hear David play takes it to a whole new level, the music fits together perfectly taking in all kinds of genres and sonic soundscapes and no records are ridden over one another. Like Jolyon's latest mix as well, when you have a good collection of music it would be a crime not play them, so what if they don't mix..

I had this converstaion with Lyot I believe, I think it's the European desease, too much emphasis is put on the technical aspect of mixing - beats are tight, mixing in the second break that most 4/4 house & some disco records have.

I was the same, gotta keep it tight, phase those beats on the break, ride the mix for at least 8 bars, it's a UK thing. Then you start to dig out the Disco and Live Drummer records and see where that gets you, yes some will ride, but you need to know that it's not a drum machine and the fills are are somebody freestyling on the drums

Since coming on DHP, I've heard David play a set live and was in awe at how different the same records I had at home sounded when he played them, I learnt that the break that I was mixing the hell out of is for the dancers (try it yourself - go out dancing: yes the track moves you, yes the melody and hook is sick, but I'll wager that it's the break that's moving your ass the most, it's the soul of the record) so play the breaks..

I think the key is to loosen up and take some chances.

Look at Picaso for example, he was extremely acomplished at classical drawing, his drawings from his college days were almost like photographs, but how do we remember him??? For taking chances and making people ask questions about art, he gave us a whole new direction by creating his own rules... Definately a uk think matt!!
Since i came to tis site I had never heard Djs before who didnt beat match at all times.This must defo be a uk thing more than a US thing.Even way back in 1989 when i first started listening to house and my friends were djing it was always about getting the records but they always had to beat them .Its kinda funny cos i bet there are people on here(UK and us) who would never dream of putting up a mix without making sure it was perfect all the way through.I suppose some people have different opinions on this matter.

Ive not got a choice right now as ive just gotta put up with the odd train wrecl lol!!

[Kenrick _]

beani, from what you are sayingit seems you have learned to beat mix (that should not have bean hard since you played in a band - i don't think).

now is the time to just loosen up, i.e stop worrying about your mixing and just play good music. you will even start surprizing yourself about the stuff you will be able to mix without realizing it... just from playing some good music.

good luck with everything smile.gif

[ August 16, 2003, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: Kenrick _ ]

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by Kenrick _:
beani, from what you are sayingit seems you have learned to beat mix (that should not have bean hard since you played in a band - i don't think).

now is the time to just loosen up, i.e stop worrying about your mixing and just play good music. you will even start surprizing yourself about the stuff you will be able to mix without realizing it... just from playing some good music.

good luck with everything smile.gif yeh ure right thats the plan lol.I got a nice bunch of records over the last few eeks and ive got a couple of crates my friend gave me stored in my loft that im gonna start digging in.Im sure theres a lot of really good abstract stuff in there and a lot of balearic stuff!! :D

[JMNYC]

The points about relaxing, enjoying yourself and not taking it so seriously are the keys to evolution (in playing music as with all aspects of life), IMO.

[Mah'chew]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
The points about relaxing, enjoying yourself and not taking it so seriously are the keys to evolution (in playing music as with all aspects of life), IMO. True that graemlins/lol.gif

Have a loose Sunday one and all.

[Jolyon]

Mixing is not as important as the records you are playing IMHO. For a few years I thought mixing was everything...I would actually play records in a certain order because they mixed well together and some records that didn't really mix, maybe I would ignore! Anyway, I stopped doing that in the mid 90s (actually around the same time that I stopped buying house music regularly).

It's different if you are playing house records - mixing is more important then I guess - people expect mixing. But if you're playing a mix up of a load of styles and tempos then I don't think that mixing really matters at all...more important is the quality of the music you're putting on the decks.

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
Mixing is not as important as the records you are playing IMHO. For a few years I thought mixing was everything...I would actually play records in a certain order because they mixed well together and some records that didn't really mix, maybe I would ignore! Anyway, I stopped doing that in the mid 90s (actually around the same time that I stopped buying house music regularly).

It's different if you are playing house records - mixing is more important then I guess - people expect mixing. But if you're playing a mix up of a load of styles and tempos then I don't think that mixing really matters at all...more important is the quality of the music you're putting on the decks. Yeh jolyon i defo not what youre saying about mixing other genres of music!Mt friends from UNi whos been djing for about 10 years plays a lot of fusion type stuff(balearic,r n b ,funk soul,motown,hip hop,acid,house,jazz,indie)i had him Dj ing at a friends party and basically he blew everyone away.Most of the ppl who were there were old house heads turned hip hop freaks.They were just standing mouth open.A lot of his mixes were beat matched but as you say its not as important when mixing it up!I guess ive not been playing any stuff like that and im just building up a decent house collection so thats what ive been playing on my tables!!I think if you are playing house and house only then you are correct what you were saying that ppl expect it to be perfectly beat matched and the blends to be seamless!

Cheers m8!!

[Ronnie Ron]

Originally posted by beaniboy67:
i bet there are people on here(UK and us) who would never dream of putting up a mix without making sure it was perfect all the way through. Beaniboy,

This is interesting, but i dont think thats the case, there are folks on this board that are technically really that good. They put it down for 70 or 80 minutes (when live for hours) and the mix is technically really good. But the BIG question is yes the mix was flawless but did this person play a bunch of bullshit tracks. Your mix can be technically good and just be a mess because the music aint movin the people. Record Selection and Programing are way more important than a perfect beat matched set.

Some people when they mess up they go back and Edit the CD try to make it perfect. Thats kool and all but if you do that then what happens when someone wants you to play out? if you *uck up all the time and cheat by editing your mixe sets its gonna tell on you when you play out.

What you see is what you get. I personally have never ever put a mix set up on the internet that has been edited to correct an error in anyway. I do my mix one time and one time only. If you are cheating it will soon show up WHEN YOU ARE LIVE....


R-R

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by RonnieRon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by beaniboy67:
i bet there are people on here(UK and us) who would never dream of putting up a mix without making sure it was perfect all the way through. Beaniboy,

This is interesting, but i dont think thats the case, there are folks on this board that are technically really that good. They put it down for 70 or 80 minutes (when live for hours) and the mix is technically really good. But the BIG question is yes the mix was flawless but did this person play a bunch of bullshit tracks. Your mix can be technically good and just be a mess because the music aint movin the people. Record Selection and Programing are way more important than a perfect beat matched set.

Some people when they mess up they go back and Edit the CD try to make it perfect. Thats kool and all but if you do that then what happens when someone wants you to play out? if you *uck up all the time and cheat by editing your mixe sets its gonna tell on you when you play out.

What you see is what you get. I personally have never ever put a mix set up on the internet that has been edited to correct an error in anyway. I do my mix one time and one time only. If you are cheating it will soon show up WHEN YOU ARE LIVE....


R-R </font>[/QUOTE]Yup ronnie you are right it is far better to be able to re produce live what you can do on a live mix Cd. i just wonder how much this is always the case tho.Ive listened to hundreds of mixes on this site and yes id agree a lot of people just hit the record button and let rip or in the case of in a club the tape has been recorded and then transferred to cd.On the other hand there is other mixes i have heard that i just know have been on pro tools.Im not saying mixes on this site but im saying some more commercially available mixes of well known underground djs.This probably isnt thru choice but id guess that a lot of shop bought mixes are recorded on pro tools.To be honest i wouldnt pay for a house mix unless it was something really special but that is the good thing about DHp you can listen to the best of the best!!#

Oh and on the subject of its all about selection youy are defo right .i was listening to a frankie mix this morning and there was a few train wrecks and quick fades.So maybe you dont have to be highly skillful technically after all. :D

well heres hoping

[Ronnie Ron]

graemlins/grinyes.gif

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by Mah'chew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JMNYC:
The points about relaxing, enjoying yourself and not taking it so seriously are the keys to evolution (in playing music as with all aspects of life), IMO. True that graemlins/lol.gif

Have a loose Sunday one and all. </font>[/QUOTE]Another h-OM-e run....thank you JMNYC

smile.gif

d

[ August 17, 2003, 01:51 PM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[JMNYC]

first, let me apologize for the book ;) :

IMHO, a live "production" and a recorded "production" should be looked at as two different things.

I have edited a few mix CDs, usually to reduce the length of the mix to fit on CD but also if a particular mix is not really tight, to go back and do an edit that smoothes it out. Not on all of my CDs mind you, and not on several mixes in the CD - if you need to do A LOT of editing then you should just record the set over again and make it tight - but I don't think there's anything wrong with tightening up a mix CD digitally because it is very different from playing live - people are going to listen to it over and over and over again (hopefully).

That's the difference between the two: a live set will be just that: live. You hear it once, in the moment. That same moment is where the crowd is - if the moment has passed and the mix wasn't as tight as you would have wanted it to be, but the programming is on point, then cool. Often I find that the quirks and imperfections in a live performance are what makes it special.

But if someone's going to pop your tape in their car and listen to it 100 times, that rough mix will eventually be a defining moment in the tape, taking away from the beauty of the music and the point of the mix in the first place (which for me is ABSOLUTELY NOT to show "how good a mixer I am", but to share some great music with people who'll enjoy it).

I know that a lot of talented DJs and producers that do their commercial mix CDs entirely in ProTools, but that is a PRODUCTION and as such, should, IMHO, be made as close to perfect as possible for the future enjoyment of the listener. This is not an issue when it comes to playing live.

The other factor is that people who dance contribute their energy to the set when you're playing live. You just can't recreate in a studio or at home. That energy is an equal part of what makes a brilliant live set - so in fact, mix CDs or tapes require twice the energy from the DJ in order to match the energy level of a live set with a good crowd.

Because of these factors, I generally only do one recorded CD per year. I didn't get into this to be praised for my ability to make a perfect mixtape. For me, it's about interacting with the energies others bring to the dancefloor. When I record my live sets I find I'm much more pleased with the results - even though some of the mixes might not be as tight as I would like - because the energy of the room comes thru in the programming, and hence, in the recording.

Case in point: if you did a live, turntable-to-turntable edit, you want it to be tight. But if you are going to press it on vinyl, you want it to be flawless.

[ August 17, 2003, 07:36 PM: Message edited by: JMNYC ]

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
first, let me apologize for the book ;) :

IMHO, a live "production" and a recorded "production" should be looked at as two different things.

I have edited a few mix CDs, usually to reduce the length of the mix to fit on CD but also if a particular mix is not really tight, to go back and do an edit that smoothes it out. Not on all of my CDs mind you, and not on several mixes in the CD - if you need to do A LOT of editing then you should just record the set over again and make it tight - but I don't think there's anything wrong with tightening up a mix CD digitally because it is very different from playing live - people are going to listen to it over and over and over again (hopefully).

That's the difference between the two: a live set will be just that: live. You hear it once, in the moment. That same moment is where the crowd is - if the moment has passed and the mix wasn't as tight as you would have wanted it to be, but the programming is on point, then cool. Often I find that the quirks and imperfections in a live performance are what makes it special.

But if someone's going to pop your tape in their car and listen to it 100 times, that rough mix will eventually be a defining moment in the tape, taking away from the beauty of the music and the point of the mix in the first place (which for me is ABSOLUTELY NOT to show "how good a mixer I am", but to share some great music with people who'll enjoy it).

I know that a lot of talented DJs and producers that do their commercial mix CDs entirely in ProTools, but that is a PRODUCTION and as such, should, IMHO, be made as close to perfect as possible for the future enjoyment of the listener. This is not an issue when it comes to playing live.

The other factor is that people who dance contribute their energy to the set when you're playing live. You just can't recreate in a studio or at home. That energy is an equal part of what makes a brilliant live set - so in fact, mix CDs or tapes require twice the energy from the DJ in order to match the energy level of a live set with a good crowd.

Because of these factors, I generally only do one recorded CD per year. I didn't get into this to be praised for my ability to make a perfect mixtape. For me, it's about interacting with the energies others bring to the dancefloor. When I record my live sets I find I'm much more pleased with the results - even though some of the mixes might not be as tight as I would like - because the energy of the room comes thru in the programming, and hence, in the recording.

Case in point: if you did a live, turntable-to-turntable edit, you want it to be tight. But if you are going to press it on vinyl, you want it to be flawless. Cheers JMNCY.Thats one of the things im not sure about.When i played in the band we done a few recording sessions layering the instruments on top of each other and we did do a good recording but we also thought it lacked something.It wasnt until about our 4 th recording session that we tried a different approach.The engineer wanted us to play live in the studio and he would take the guide vocal out and do re takes until the singer had his part right!Im not saying our take was perfect on first recording cos it wasnt and it usually took around 5 or 6 takes.The reason for the 5 takes was so we had nailed the song perfectly.This is due to the fact that people listening over and over at home have a perfect piece of music and performance to listen too.The singer would then do his stuff til he got it correct and the track was then mixed.After the music was mixed we all agreed that the sound of the record had far more energy and re created far more of the sound and vibe that we get in live gig than we got in the previous layered recordings.Scenario -Layering a pop song is probably the same as sitting down with a bunch of house wav files and dragging them into a piece of software to make a house mix.Pro tools mixed house selections never sound the same as what the same set would on a set of tables id imagine.So I suppose at my stage of development on the tables i should maybe try a set a few times till i get it right and feel comfterable enough to put it on cd. After all im going to be giving it to friends who will want to listen to it over and over again.On the other hand what Ronnie says about being able to edit or practise a mix at home and then get caught out at a gig also shines through.I suppose i would never play a gig unless i totally felt comfterable with my mixing ect ect but maybe i should practise a set a few times before i hand it out to friends on cd.On the other hand i should maybe not hand it out at all until my skills are on top lol.

:D

P.s it amazing how a thread changes lol

[JMNYC]

beaniboy, I agree this has been an interesting thread!

I would suggest that you practice and record your practice sets without attempting to do a "mix CD". If you f*ck up, so be it. That way, when you hand your friends a tape or CD it is something representative of you and where you are at. You needn't mix every record (as we were saying earlier). The practice will pick up your game for when you do play live, and the CD/tape will also give you an opportunity to hear how you're doing. Recording practice sets is something I've done since I first started playing, and it has been very helpful.

This reminds me of a recent online conversation David Morales participated in. When asked how he put together his recent King Street compilation, he said he listened to all of the records over and over at home until he knew which should go where, and then he toyed with the order until it made logical and musical sense. Then he did the mix. This from someone who's been doing this for so many years! Without the years of experience, if you're going to do a "mix CD" you might want to plan it out, maybe even give it a few dry-runs, because you have to define the energy from beginning to end and take it exactly where you want it to go.

For live gigs, the crowd has to be an integral part of the overal energy and flow of the evening. Too much planning can spoil the free flow of energy that makes for an amazing live set.

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by JMNYC:
beaniboy, I agree this has been an interesting thread!

I would suggest that you practice and record your practice sets without attempting to do a "mix CD". If you f*ck up, so be it. That way, when you hand your friends a tape or CD it is something representative of you and where you are at. You needn't mix every record (as we were saying earlier). The practice will pick up your game for when you do play live, and the CD/tape will also give you an opportunity to hear how you're doing. Recording practice sets is something I've done since I first started playing, and it has been very helpful.

This reminds me of a recent online conversation David Morales participated in. When asked how he put together his recent King Street compilation, he said he listened to all of the records over and over at home until he knew which should go where, and then he toyed with the order until it made logical and musical sense. Then he did the mix. This from someone who's been doing this for so many years! Without the years of experience, if you're going to do a "mix CD" you might want to plan it out, maybe even give it a few dry-runs, because you have to define the energy from beginning to end and take it exactly where you want it to go.

For live gigs, the crowd has to be an integral part of the overal energy and flow of the evening. Too much planning can spoil the free flow of energy that makes for an amazing live set. yeh i did make a mix the other day and to be honest it wasnt that bad!The main reason ive been recording my mixes is so that i can listen back to them and see where i have went wrong and to see if the programming is ok.Its funni tho because u only have 70 minutes(if making a mix cd)to try and create a journey and thats not realli a long time to do it.When i used to go clubbing one of the djs who i heard week in week out was orde meikle from slam in Glasgow and the guy was pretty immense at building up a night,his warm ups were amazing.Sometimes he would start with some mello dubby stuff and the odd hiphoppy type vibe then he would go into some more jazzy house all the way right thru to some really deep hard detroit techno by the end of the night.This would be nearli impossible to do on a 70 minute mix id imagine as obviously a time limit is taken into consideration. I guess when making a mix cd you can only pull out a record and stick it on the tables and play what you feel for 70 minutes.I suppose the crowd reactions in a bar or club and how busy the night is, also determines what you would play out live and what progression you take vibe wise!!!

Cheers again graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[beaniboy67]

Originally posted by RonnieRon:
graemlins/grinyes.gif nice mix ronnie!! graemlins/thumbsup.gif

I like it!