curious, what does Armenia mean to YOU?

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

What does Armenia mean to you? Most people don't know much about my homeland, and it saddens me.

[AD]

graemlins/conf44.gif I don't know much so I can't really comment.

[mhd]

genocide, cher

[And]

I know very little too about Armenia ... Scratch that, I know nothing about Armenia.

[AD]

Originally posted by 6 23:
I know very little too about Armenia ... Scratch that, I know nothing about Armenia. Where have you been? Me no get to talky to you no mo.
:D

[JMJ]

Jerry Tarkanian.....JMJ

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

The first church that ever existed was an Armenian one. Still exists today, but it's obviously a historic site that you can't touch.

And yes, we were victims of an atrocity in WWI. On April 24th, 1915, Ottoman Turks began massacring our people. Over a million of us were wasted. Only 6 countries recognize the events that occurred: Canada, Argentina, France, Greece, Russia, and of course Armenia. An Atom Egoyan movie recently came out entitled, "Ararat". Check it out on video/DVD rental.Peace

[ September 24, 2003, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister ]

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Originally posted by JMJ:
Jerry Tarkanian.....JMJ JMJ, I'm impressed!
Yes, the Shark is Armenian.
So is:

Cher
Andre Agassi
Francois K
Jack Kevorkian ("Dr. Death"...did you know that he also has 2 jazz albums released!?)
Charles Aznavour

[mhd]

dj 76

[Mocambo]

I knew about this along time.........

THE WASHINGTON POST

Sunday, March 11, 2001; Page B01

Armenia's History, Turkey's Dilemma

By Paul Glastris

It is dimly lit and dank as a cavern inside the old National Bank building two blocks from the White House. The electricity is off, and we make our way around with the aid of a flashlight. Its narrow beam reveals an impressive three-story atrium with a carved wood ceiling, dated-looking ATM machines and an old bank vault, its yard-thick steel door yawning open.

I'm exploring this vintage space with Ross Vartian of the Armenian National Institute (ANI), a branch of the increasingly powerful Armenian Assembly of America, an ethnic lobbying group. The ANI bought the building last year for $7.25 million, with the aim of transforming it from a place that safeguarded money to one that will preserve a memory. Four years from now, Vartian tells me, this space will be a $50 million museum and memorial filled with mural-size photos, personal artifacts and interactive exhibits chronicling the history of an atrocity that time -- and politics -- have long obscured: the Armenian genocide of 1915 to 1923. Visitors will learn how, in those eight years, 1.5 million Armenians living in the eastern Anatolia region of present-day Turkey were massacred or perished in forced death marches ordered by the nationalist Turkish regime of the declining Ottoman Empire.

Vartian says he wants the museum to be as emotionally powerful and historically accurate as Washington's hugely popular U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. That means being honest about not only the Turks who slaughtered Armenians, but also those who tried to save them. "Just about every Armenian who survived, including a member of my own family, was saved by a righteous Turk," says Vartian. But whether it honors righteous Turks or not, the museum will not be seen as historically accurate by the Republic of Turkey.

Turkey has long and forcefully insisted that the genocide never happened. At most, it claims, 500,000 Armenians died, mostly of disease, and only as the tragic consequence of a civil war started by Armenian separatists. Still, short of building its own Armenian Genocide Myth Museum, there's not much Turkey can do. It will be the Armenian version of events, not the Turkish, that the public visiting the ANI museum will absorb and -- as is increasingly the case throughout the West -- accept as historical fact.

After more than 80 years, during which the Armenian side struggled to present its case, Western scholars, politicians and the public are coming around to the view that what the Armenians suffered was not a tragic wartime loss, but a deliberate genocide, and that not recognizing it as such is a profound moral offense. This shift is most obvious on the political front. About two decades ago, the Armenian diaspora -- which includes about 300,000 Americans of Armenian descent -- began trying to persuade Western governments to pass resolutions acknowledging the genocide. Lobbyists funded by the Turkish government thwarted almost every attempt by appealing to the importance of the U.S.-Turkish strategic alliance and by publicizing -- and sometimes subsidizing -- historical studies that questioned Armenian claims.

But recently, the tide has begun to turn. The Belgian Senate passed an Armenian genocide resolution in 1998. The French parliament did the same in January, leading Turkey to cancel an array of contracts with French firms.

Last fall, for the first time, an Armenian genocide resolution made it past the International Relations Committee of the U.S. House of Representatives. Speaker Dennis Hastert supported the measure, hoping it would lift the reelection prospects of Republican Rep. James Rogan of California, who was in a tight race in a district with a large Armenian American population. The Clinton administration strongly opposed the resolution, believing it would undermine U.S. interests in the Eastern Mediterranean and the Middle East. Turkey threatened, among other things, to deny the United States use of Incirlik Air Base in southern Turkey for patrolling the no-fly zone over northern Iraq. After personal appeals from President Clinton, Hastert pulled the resolution off the House floor minutes before it was to be voted on. Its demise was a crucial victory for Turkey, but probably a temporary one, as a similar measure will almost surelybe introduced in the new Congress.

Today, no American politician wants to be on record as denying the genocide. In 1990, when the U.S. Senate considered an Armenian genocide resolution, several prominent senators, including Robert Byrd of West Virginia and Colorado's Tim Wirth, publicly questioned whether historians knew for certain that the genocide had really occurred. By last fall, even those House members who opposed the resolution shied away from casting doubt on the historic fact of the genocide. Instead, they argued against the measure on other grounds: that Congress shouldn't be passing judgment on the histories of other countries; that the resolution would be a slap in the face of a valued U.S. ally; that it would harm U.S. interests in the region; and that it would make Turkey defensive and less likely to reexamine its history.

Bill Clinton opposed the resolution, but every year, on or around April 24, the day the genocide is officially commemorated in Armenia, he issued a statement acknowledging "the deportations and massacres of roughly one and a half million Armenians in the final years of the Ottoman Empire." George W. Bush has gone even further. During last year's presidential campaign, he wrote to Armenian American groups that Armenians had been subject to a "genocidal campaign" and that, if elected, he would "ensure that our nation properly recognizes the tragic suffering of the Armenian people." Armenian Americans will be watching to see if the president uses the word "genocide" this April 24.

In academia, the trend is similar. In 1985, 69 American scholars signed a petition questioning claims of an Armenian genocide. Today, only a handful of academics maintain such skepticism, and only one, University of Louisville historian Justin McCarthy, will say so publicly. McCarthy told me the drop-off is due in part to the harassment that he and like-minded scholars have received from militant Armenians -- including, he says, threats of violence. Another reason, writes Turkish columnist Sukru Elekdag, a former ambassador to the United States, is that the Turkish government has failed to fulfill a promise it made in 1985 to give American academics unfettered access to Turkish historical archives.

Vahakn Dadrian, a leading Armenian American scholar, offers a third explanation: more and better research on the events of 1915 to 1923 has convinced once-skeptical academics that what Armenians suffered was indeed genocide. The number of scholars who publicly acknowledge the Armenian genocide is large and growing. Last year, 126 Holocaust scholars signed a petition affirming that "the World War I Armenian Genocide is an incontestable historical fact" and urging the government of Turkey to "finally come to terms with a dark chapter of Ottoman-Turkish history."

For decades, the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews defined what most people thought of as genocide. But in the wake of more recent government-sponsored slaughters, from Cambodia to Bosnia to Rwanda, scholars have come to see the Armenian tragedy as a more typical example of genocide, arising as it did from an ethnic battle over territory. At the time, the Ottoman and Russian empires were fighting on opposite sides of one of the many fronts of World War I. Armenian revolutionaries in Russia had joined the czar's army and were attempting (with little success) to recruit Armenians on the Ottoman side in the hopes of creating an autonomous Armenian homeland that would include eastern Anatolia. The Ottoman government, then controlled by the nationalist "Young Turks" regime, responded by massacring -- or ethnically cleansing -- almost the entire Armenian population of the region.

Turkey claims that the forced relocation of the Armenians was justified by the war and that there was no government plan to slaughter them. Yet even in Turkey, there's now some dissent from that view. In February, Turkish television broadcast an unprecedented six-hour debate on the Armenian genocide issue. Four of the show's panelists expressed the government view that accusations of genocide are lies propagated by Turkey's enemies. A fifth panelist, however, disagreed. "The constant refrain of 'We are not guilty,' and the parallel blaming of the Armenians, the victims, very much hurts the cause of Turkey," insisted Taner Akcam, a Turkish scholar at the Armenian Research Center of the University of Michigan-Dearborn. "Unless we distance ourselves from the perpetrators of this crime, which was a genocide, we will never be able to extricate ourselves from this burdensome onus." A few minutes later, an outraged Semra Ozal, the wife of Turkey's late president, Turgut Ozal, phoned in to the show. "How dare you let this man speak?" she shouted. "Shut him up!"

It's easy to understand why views like Akcam's aren't well-received in Turkey. Most Turks honestly believe their country is being asked to admit to crimes their ancestors did not commit. Turks also believe that any admission of genocide would lead to demands that Turkey pay restitution or give back land in eastern Anatolia -- ideas Armenians haven't dismissed.

With world opinion turning against the Turkish position, some ex-government officials in Turkey are advocating a new approach: convening a panel of scholars from around the world, including Turkey and Armenia, and giving them full access to all archives to look at the historical record. This would benefit Turkey by taking the issue of the Armenian genocide out of the political realm, at least for a while. The idea also appeals to Western diplomats and politicians who, more than anything else, want the issue to go away.

But Armenia and the powerful Armenian diaspora have no interest in taking the issue out of the political realm, where they are winning. Even participating in such a research panel, say Armenians, would validate precisely the premise they reject: that there's any doubt that Armenians suffered genocide.

Ending this long-standing dispute will help Turkey achieve its primary national goal: winning entry into the European Union. Not ending it will put Turkey on a collision course with any number of nations that might pass Armenian genocide resolutions in the future, including the United States. In the end, the genocide issue isn't going away. Like Ross Vartian's museum, it will be a permanent fixture in Washington, and a perpetual sore spot with the rest of the Western world. And that's something Turkey is going to have to adjust to, one way or another.

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Word up Silhouette!! I'm impressed. Nice to know some people on this page are legit.
My man DJ76 had sent me an article on Taner Ackam. That man needs to be praised. There were many Turkish civilians that actually did save armenians lives in WWI by providing food and shelter, and risking their own lives in the process.

P.S.: I feel a hurricane coming. It's coin soon. it's called Hurricane 76

[Mocambo]

There was a movie about this subject, I think last year. Interesting unknown history.

[And]

Originally posted by Albert Diaz:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by 6 23:
I know very little too about Armenia ... Scratch that, I know nothing about Armenia. Where have you been? Me no get to talky to you no mo.
:D </font>[/QUOTE]I know ... I don't like it one bit ... You better come correct. I won't stand for it. You owe me another late night jack session. graemlins/remybussi.gif icon_rofl.gif

[djyoavb]

here in Israel we know pretty good about the Armenian people's genocide back in the day because our people had a similare kind of thing b4. there was also a famouse Armenian-American writer i forgot his name and i used to like alot.

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Originally posted by djyoavb:
here in Israel we know pretty good about the Armenian people's genocide back in the day because our people had a similare kind of thing b4. there was also a famouse Armenian-American writer i forgot his name and i used to like alot. That would be William Saroyan.

He was an ancestor of an armenian girl that I dated for 2 years, also named Saroyan.

[djyoavb]

Originally posted by DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djyoavb:
here in Israel we know pretty good about the Armenian people's genocide back in the day because our people had a similare kind of thing b4. there was also a famouse Armenian-American writer i forgot his name and i used to like alot. That would be William Saroyan.

He was an ancestor of an armenian girl that I dated for 2 years, also named Saroyan. </font>[/QUOTE]right! graemlins/grinyes.gif

[Pete Nice]

they were some of the first immigrants in southern california. they mostly live where i do(glendale). they are not well liked in glendale(by mexicans & white kids). it's quite sad to tell the truth. it's been 10 years since high school and the race wars just get worse and more deadly. most of the problems come from the "fresh off the boat" kids. the ones who have been here a while handle things better. they're like most immigrant communties: they stay with their own out fear, so sometimes they can misunderstood. hey michael don't anything i said to be offensive, that is just how it was and is right now. some people get bent too quick.

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Square Root,
I got some family in Glendale (American-Armenians) who have told me the same thing. They are ashamed of these punks that are giving Armenians a bad name. I also hear that alot of Armenian girls in LA are very stuck up and think that they are God's gift to men. They need to mature. I guess there's bad apples in every bunch! graemlins/conf44.gif

[Pete Nice]

Originally posted by DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister:
Square Root,
I got some family in Glendale (American-Armenians) who have told me the same thing. They are ashamed of these punks that are giving Armenians a bad name. I also hear that alot of Armenian girls in LA are very stuck up and think that they are God's gift to men. They need to mature. I guess there's bad apples in every bunch! graemlins/conf44.gif i've seen both sides. one problem is the "gangster" element with the new jacks. that right there causes serious issues. as for the girls that's just a spoiled brat and my parents got too much money and not enough time. the armenian cats that i hang with are american to the bone, but never forget their culture. saddest part to me is(and you see this with other immigrant cultures) they will absorb too much of the mass media ideal to fit in. it is what is.

[DJ76]

Pari Looyz (good morning, in armenian)

I am glad to see this post and to see people replying to it. The story of the "forgotten" genocide still haunts the daily lives of armenians around the world. We have to remember the words of Hitler before his troops a few days before attacking Poland (if my memory serves me right): "Who today remembers the massacres of Armenians in the Ottoman Empire".

The fact that the genocide was left unpunished is telling, a sign of weakness in the international community. It gives war mongers a indicia that their actions will not be looked upon and that they will be able to fly freely. Luckily, the tide is reversing and we see today many heads of states being indicted, arrested and tried in front of tribunals.

On a good note, we have a country. It does not have a shining record, but it's there. It's called Hayastan, but you all know it as Armenia. It is the first country to have adopted christianism as state religion in 301, 86 years before the Romans adopted it. I am not religious but this is part of my heritage. And it is this heritage that some people tried to erase....

Michael, thanks for bringing up this subject. Just one note, Canada has NOT yet recognized the genocide officially, France has passed a law recently (in 2001 I believe), but many States want to keep their relations with Turkey and don't want to have them on their bad side. France didn't give a rat's ass and went ahead and recognized it. The USA were very close but still have not done so. I'm condifent they will, but I wonder when.

It is to be noted that many international observers were on the spot during the genocide, one of which was the American ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Henry Morgenthau. There is a passage of one of his books were he speaks about the horror he witnessed. A german professor, Johannes Lepsius, was also there and has testified about it in Germany. International witnesses are very important as they are, to a certain extent, not party to the conflict and can have an objective look on it.

I have lots to say about Armenia, one of which is that... I need to go to the motherland. I never have and I can't wait to go. We don't have any family there as the ones that were left back were massacred and the ones that survived are scattered around the world. But I will make it a point to go.

I will write more when I get back from Bosnia in a few days, maybe to write about brighter subjects, but as you can see, there is one big subject that still haunts us. The souls of the martyrs are still not able to rest.

Peace.

Alex Demirdjian.

[DJ76]

Originally posted by mhd:
dj 76 smile.gif

[lyot]

damn, I love this post ! I was willing to post it myself yesterday, but I didn't, as I'm obviously not an Armenian..

But Armenia is my country and I would love to visit Nagorno Karabach (Khankendy, right ? ) , see Lake Sevan, pass the controls at Zvarnots Airport, see Mount Ararat, pass the Lachin corridor and so on...

Next year, by the way, it should be happening..Together with Georgia and Azerbaidzjan (oeps, I shouldn't have mentioned that maybe.. ;)


It was Armenia that got me drawn into international politics and conflict management in the first place..When I was at secondary school, my teacher gave me the assignement to make a paper on that country.. Since then, I have this unspoken connection with this country..

When I started working on the Commissariat General for the Refugees in Belgium a couple of years later, I was assigned to the Caucasus section, and Armenia is since one of the countries I have to deal with most.. As a matter of fact, I see almost every week a couple of Armenians who have fled there country.. And not to be a pain in the ass here, but most of the time they come up with fraudulent stories..Which is cool to me, because it's everyone's right to try to get into our country, no matter what means; But the sad thing is that I have to keep them out.. :(

But I love the mentality of most of them.. And the Armenian interpreters at our job are all top class.. ! smile.gif

And dj 76 is one top bloke of course ! Be safe there in Bosnia Alex.. smile.gif

greetings

[Digiman]

The only thing I remember about Armenia is that it was the first country to formally adopt Christianity. (After reading this thread I know a lot more though.) It also has a GDP of $12.6 Billion.

[lyot]

Originally posted by Alfie Moon:
The only thing I remember about Armenia is that it was the first country to formally adopt Christianity. (After reading this thread I know a lot more though.) It also has a GDP of $12.6 Billion. about it's GDP : I've been told that the Armenian diaspora over the world bring in over half the amount of the total GDP each year..

At least, that was the case two or three years ago..


I also want to add that I do not like President Robert Kotcharian whatsoever and that in my personal opinion, he's involved in the tragedy in the Armenian parliament in 1999.

greetings

[greg wilson]

George Ivanovitch Gurdjieff

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Hey Alex,

I'm 150% sure that Canada has recognized the genocide of the Armenians. This occurred in the past year. I specifically remember reading a tiny article in the Montreal Gazette...

Peace my brother AR15firing.gif

I mean... graemlins/beerchug.gif

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

...that newest male tennis player from South America is also Armenian. What's his name....Nalbandian???

[The Buddy Love Show]

Originally posted by mhd:
genocide, cher a most astute observation


currently reading about the al Shifa pharmaceutical plant bombing in Sudan and the author (Chomsky) ties it into why the west is hated...because we ignore atrocities

[ September 25, 2003, 07:18 AM: Message edited by: St Magus the Reviled ]

[der geile hund]

I thought 76 was a hairy Albanian?

Are there a lot of Armenians in Iran? I ask because I know Agassi's father boxed for the Iranian Olympic team.

[jimmymack-2000]

Since you see fit to start educating the DHP after a few posts, perhaps you can educate us on the current conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, particularly the battle of Khodjali, where Azeris claim brave Armenian "freedom fighters" slaughtered a whole town, including the women and children...

[DD Licious]

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Since you see fit to start educating the DHP after a few posts, perhaps you can educate us on the current conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, particularly the battle of Khodjali, where Azeris claim brave Armenian "freedom fighters" slaughtered a whole town, including the women and children... well, that were the Russians actually...Just like they have been involved in other blooth baths in Azerbaidzjan, where lots of ARmenians were killed (i forget the name time and agian)..

Did you know that over 20 died this year alone at the military front in Nagorno Karabach ? This is more then in the last 5 years together, if i'm well informed.

greetings

[lyot]

Originally posted by DD Licious:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Since you see fit to start educating the DHP after a few posts, perhaps you can educate us on the current conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, particularly the battle of Khodjali, where Azeris claim brave Armenian "freedom fighters" slaughtered a whole town, including the women and children... well, that were the Russians actually...Just like they have been involved in other blooth baths in Azerbaidzjan, where lots of ARmenians were killed (i forget the name time and agian)..

Did you know that over 20 died this year alone at the military front in Nagorno Karabach ? This is more then in the last 5 years together, if i'm well informed.

greetings </font>[/QUOTE]sorry, that was me who wrote that. DD licious wasn't logged out yet..

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

More Armenians....

Armen Keteyan from ABC (he's a sports commentator)

Also. California's "System of a Down" (a heavy metal band) are ALL Armenian. And extremely patriotic at that. Pretty fraky lookin' some of them, but I'm still down with them graemlins/thumbsup.gif

[DLow]

Originally posted by DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister:
What does Armenia mean to you? Most people don't know much about my homeland, and it saddens me. Don't know anything about Armenia. graemlins/conf44.gif

[jimmymack-2000]

Originally posted by DD Licious:
well, that were the Russians actually...Just like they have been involved in other blooth baths in Azerbaidzjan, where lots of ARmenians were killed (i forget the name time and agian)..

Did you know that over 20 died this year alone at the military front in Nagorno Karabach ? This is more then in the last 5 years together, if i'm well informed.

greetings The Russians actually simultaneously backed and undermined both sides, but had pretty much bowed out of the picture by 1992, when the massacre I'm talking about occured: more pressing matters in Georgia, Abkhazia, etc. demanded their attention.

Anyway, I'm not trying to demonize anyone, merely point out that the Azeris would have a completely different opinion on who the victim is.

P.S. This is a very good site for anyone curious about ethic conflict in Eastern Europe and the ex-USSR... Sobaka (http://www.diacritica.com/sobaka/)

[statuskuo]

DJ "hairy knuckles" 76.

[simon b]

Hey Mike, welcome. Are you familiar with sculptor Arto Tchakmaktchian?

http://www.arto.to/sculpture/arto.jpg

He's a good friend of mines father who schooled me on Armenia's history among other things.

[ September 25, 2003, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: simon b ]

[Hk]

a cultural crossroads in Europe that has
important significance to the entire continent.

[lyot]

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DD Licious:
well, that were the Russians actually...Just like they have been involved in other blooth baths in Azerbaidzjan, where lots of ARmenians were killed (i forget the name time and agian)..

Did you know that over 20 died this year alone at the military front in Nagorno Karabach ? This is more then in the last 5 years together, if i'm well informed.

greetings The Russians actually simultaneously backed and undermined both sides, but had pretty much bowed out of the picture by 1992, when the massacre I'm talking about occured: more pressing matters in Georgia, Abkhazia, etc. demanded their attention.

Anyway, I'm not trying to demonize anyone, merely point out that the Azeris would have a completely different opinion on who the victim is.

P.S. This is a very good site for anyone curious about ethic conflict in Eastern Europe and the ex-USSR... Sobaka (http://www.diacritica.com/sobaka/) </font>[/QUOTE]I love that website Jimmymack..Thanks for bringing that up.. I find it a very welcome source of information..One of their journalist (Mark ? ) was thrown a handgrenade at last year in Armenia, if I remember correctly...

About the conflict :both sides have dirty hands, but that's almost always the case in conflicts, right ? Atrocities were commited by both sides..I've seen quite some video's on the NK conflict, and it's really horrible..

[Mocambo]

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
Since you see fit to start educating the DHP after a few posts, perhaps you can educate us on the current conflict between Azerbaijan and Armenia, particularly the battle of Khodjali, where Azeris claim brave Armenian "freedom fighters" slaughtered a whole town, including the women and children... Was that the massacre of the Tartars?

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Originally posted by simon b:
Hey Mike, welcome. Are you familiar with sculptor Arto Tchakmaktchian?

http://www.arto.to/sculpture/arto.jpg

He's a good friend of mines father who schooled me on Armenia's history among other things. Wassup Simon,
I didn't know that you were on DHP. No, I am not familiar, but I am now!! Peace. Another person who is really up to par on Armenian history is Mathematic, a.k.a Mic who used to write for the Mirror. He is one deep, knowledgeable cat. Do you know him Simon?

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

More Armenians...

1. Aram Khatchaturian : classical music composer who had composed the ever-so popular "flight of the bumble bee"

2. Steve Bedrossian: ex-MLB pitcher. Pitched for the Braves and the Phillies.

3. Peter Gabriel : nuff said!

4. Jill Hennesy: Hollywood actress who stars on a hit television series re: crime/investigation. Just can't remember the name of the show.

5. RON JEREMY!!!! : this is absolutely true. He is half Jewish and half Armenian... (also known by pundits as the Hedge Hog!)

6. the owners of the West Edmonton Mall in Alberta, Canada are also Armenian. (the biggest mall in the world!)

[ September 25, 2003, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister ]

[DJ76]

Many celebreties have hidden their origins for some reason, I guess they didn't want to have an ethnic label sticking on their back. I can think of Charles Aznavour who only started affirming his origins in the last decade or so (and also around 1988 when Armenia was hit by an earthquake). Same goes for Agassi (to answer an earlier question, there is an important Armenian community in Iran and Agassi's parents are from Iran).

[jimmymack-2000]

Originally posted by Silhouette:
Was that the massacre of the Tartars? I'm not sure...I haven't heard it referred to as such. "Tartars" is a generic word used to describe many Caucasian peoples like Abkhazis, Azeris, Ossetians, etc.

The event I'm referring to happened in 1992, when Armenia reasserted its claim on territory outside its Soviet-era boundaries as an SSR. There are a number of Turkish and Azeri historians (and a few Armenians) who claim Armenian forces killed nearly 2.5 million Tartars, around the time of the Armenian genocide (1915).

[DJ76]

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Silhouette:
Was that the massacre of the Tartars? I'm not sure...I haven't heard it referred to as such. "Tartars" is a generic word used to describe many Caucasian peoples like Abkhazis, Azeris, Ossetians, etc.

The event I'm referring to happened in 1992, when Armenia reasserted its claim on territory outside its Soviet-era boundaries as an SSR. There are a number of Turkish and Azeri historians (and a few Armenians) who claim Armenian forces killed nearly 2.5 million Tartars, around the time of the Armenian genocide (1915). </font>[/QUOTE]whooooooooooooa! now that's the first I hear of this one. Although I can't confirm nor contradict what you just wrote, here is what I could say about it. I can't recall whether "armenian forces" existed per se and I'd have to go back to my Armenian History classes for that. But using simple logic, I can only conclude that there were perhaps un-organized troops. There were Armenians in the Ottoman army (don't have numbers but there were a lot of Armenians in the Ottoman Army) and the same goes for the russian army, it had many Armenians within its troops. So when you speak of Armenian troops, I'm not sure what to think, perhaps paramilitaries, gangs, etc. But for Tartars to claim that Armenians killed 2.5 million tartars is more than far fetched. Secondly, were these tartars combattants or civilians?

When we speak of 1.5 million Armenians killed in the Genocide, we're talking civilians and un-armed soldiers (most of which were part of the Ottoman Army, were unarmed, then submitted to forced labour, digging trenches, etc...).

On the other hand, I cannot contradict nor confirm that some Armenian troops might have committed crimes and if I ever see the evidence, I'll be ready to accept it. But the number of these Armenian (independent) troops not belonging to the Russian nor Ottoman army shouldn't be really high, so to kill 2.5 million tartars, well, takes lots of organization and lots of soldiers.

When we speak of the Genocide, one cannot also forget the considerable number of Jewish and Greek nationals that were killed on Turkish land because they were "infidels".

Keep this convo going graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Jimmijack, just out of curiosity - and you don't have to answer if you don't want to - what is your background and how did you get interested about the topic? You seem to be in the know...

[Leslie]

Originally posted by mhd:
dj 76 Ditto. smile.gif

[DJ76]

Originally posted by Leslie:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
dj 76 Ditto. smile.gif </font>[/QUOTE]now I'm blushin'
graemlins/bighug.gif

[jimmymack-2000]

Originally posted by DJ76:
whooooooooooooa! now that's the first I hear of this one. Although I can't confirm nor contradict what you just wrote, here is what I could say about it. I can't recall whether "armenian forces" existed per se and I'd have to go back to my Armenian History classes for that. But using simple logic, I can only conclude that there were perhaps un-organized troops.
They were "dashnaks," or members of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, the ruling party in pre-Soviet Armenia:

ARF homepage (http://www.arfd.am/armenian/index.php)



Originally posted by DJ76:
There were Armenians in the Ottoman army (don't have numbers but there were a lot of Armenians in the Ottoman Army) and the same goes for the russian army, it had many Armenians within its troops. So when you speak of Armenian troops, I'm not sure what to think, perhaps paramilitaries, gangs, etc. But for Tartars to claim that Armenians killed 2.5 million tartars is more than far fetched. Secondly, were these tartars combattants or civilians?
From a book called "Men Are Like That: Memoirs of an Armenian Officer," written in 1923:

I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones, as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth.



Originally posted by DJ76:

When we speak of 1.5 million Armenians killed in the Genocide, we're talking civilians and un-armed soldiers (most of which were part of the Ottoman Army, were unarmed, then submitted to forced labour, digging trenches, etc...).

On the other hand, I cannot contradict nor confirm that some Armenian troops might have committed crimes and if I ever see the evidence, I'll be ready to accept it. But the number of these Armenian (independent) troops not belonging to the Russian nor Ottoman army shouldn't be really high, so to kill 2.5 million tartars, well, takes lots of organization and lots of soldiers.I agree--I don't take any of the claims made by the "victims" of purported Armenian aggression at face value. As with any other issue, the truth about this may never be known...


Originally posted by DJ76:

When we speak of the Genocide, one cannot also forget the considerable number of Jewish and Greek nationals that were killed on Turkish land because they were "infidels".

Keep this convo going graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Jimmijack, just out of curiosity - and you don't have to answer if you don't want to - what is your background and how did you get interested about the topic? You seem to be in the know... As you well know, when you're growing up in a Canadian city, you often have friends from all kinds of backgrounds. I had Greek Cypriots, Macedonians, Serbs, Armenians, Turks among my friends. For the most part, they got along well with one another, but it was funny how an agreement over a cheap goal in street hockey or something similarly trivial could turn into ethnic slurs, accusations based on events from 75 years ago, etc. So, I did a bit of reading...

[DJ76]

Originally posted by jimmymack-2000:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ76:
whooooooooooooa! now that's the first I hear of this one. Although I can't confirm nor contradict what you just wrote, here is what I could say about it. I can't recall whether "armenian forces" existed per se and I'd have to go back to my Armenian History classes for that. But using simple logic, I can only conclude that there were perhaps un-organized troops.
They were "dashnaks," or members of the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, the ruling party in pre-Soviet Armenia:

ARF homepage (http://www.arfd.am/armenian/index.php)



Originally posted by DJ76:
There were Armenians in the Ottoman army (don't have numbers but there were a lot of Armenians in the Ottoman Army) and the same goes for the russian army, it had many Armenians within its troops. So when you speak of Armenian troops, I'm not sure what to think, perhaps paramilitaries, gangs, etc. But for Tartars to claim that Armenians killed 2.5 million tartars is more than far fetched. Secondly, were these tartars combattants or civilians?
From a book called "Men Are Like That: Memoirs of an Armenian Officer," written in 1923:

I killed Muslims by every means possible. Yet it is sometimes a pity to waste bullets for this. The best way is to gather all of these dogs and throw them into wells and then fill the wells with big and heavy stones, as I did. I gathered all of the women, men and children, threw big stones down on top of them. They must never live on this earth.



Originally posted by DJ76:

When we speak of 1.5 million Armenians killed in the Genocide, we're talking civilians and un-armed soldiers (most of which were part of the Ottoman Army, were unarmed, then submitted to forced labour, digging trenches, etc...).

On the other hand, I cannot contradict nor confirm that some Armenian troops might have committed crimes and if I ever see the evidence, I'll be ready to accept it. But the number of these Armenian (independent) troops not belonging to the Russian nor Ottoman army shouldn't be really high, so to kill 2.5 million tartars, well, takes lots of organization and lots of soldiers.I agree--I don't take any of the claims made by the "victims" of purported Armenian aggression at face value. As with any other issue, the truth about this may never be known...


Originally posted by DJ76:

When we speak of the Genocide, one cannot also forget the considerable number of Jewish and Greek nationals that were killed on Turkish land because they were "infidels".

Keep this convo going graemlins/thumbsup.gif

Jimmijack, just out of curiosity - and you don't have to answer if you don't want to - what is your background and how did you get interested about the topic? You seem to be in the know... As you well know, when you're growing up in a Canadian city, you often have friends from all kinds of backgrounds. I had Greek Cypriots, Macedonians, Serbs, Armenians, Turks among my friends. For the most part, they got along well with one another, but it was funny how an agreement over a cheap goal in street hockey or something similarly trivial could turn into ethnic slurs, accusations based on events from 75 years ago, etc. So, I did a bit of reading... </font>[/QUOTE]Hmmmm, you said the word: dashnak. Nuf said.

Thanks for replying. As you can see, I am open to these information because I know that back in those days, everyone had their hands dirty. The only difference (and actually one of the relations with Bosniaks) is that Armenians were in the less favorable position and had 300,000 of their people massacre in the late 1890s, therefore had to react. As the international community was not listening to their pleas, they did the same as the Bosniaks; some of their extremist elements committed acts similar to the ones their opponents were committing. I know two wrongs don't make it right.

Peace
Alex

[Fletch]

Originally posted by DJ Michael Terzian, a.k.a. Sinister:
More Armenians...

2. Steve Bedrossian: ex-MLB pitcher. Pitched for the Braves and the Phillies.

Bedrock!!!!

[ September 26, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: einnod23 ]

[Fletch]

http://graphics.fansonly.com/photos/schools/nd/sports/m-footbl/archives/c-parseghian-a.jpg

Ara Parseghian

[DJ76]

George Deukmedjian, former governor of California, 35th Governor, Republican
(1983-1991)

[Mocambo]

I hope I did not start nothing with that Tartar question. I'm just a history buff. Being that there are people of Armenian descent here, I get to learn more. Jill Hennessey??? I did not know.

Please continue.........

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

Another famous armenian:

Kirk Kirkorian (real name is Krikorian) owns the MGM Grand in Las Vegas!!!!!!

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

................................................

[Armento]

Tomorrow we commemorate

The Ottoman government is a pioneer and a leader in planning and successfully executing the first Genocide of the 2oth. Century, the Armenian Genocide. It carried out its policy of eliminating its minority Christian Armenian population between 1915-1918. This tragedy was preceded by several massacres between 1894-1896, 1909, and then again in 1920. During the 1915 Genocide, Armenians were forced out of their homeland and into the desserts of Der El Zor, being raped, torchered and killed in masses in the process. 1.5 million lives were violently eliminated during the Turkish autrocities.

Rafael Limkin a Warsaw public prosecutor, became interested in the concept of crime, which prompted him to study the killing of Armenians in depth, and campaigned in the League of Nations to put an end to what he called (barbarity & vandalism). In 1943 he created the word Genocide from the root words genos (Greek for family, tribe, race) & cide (Latin for killing) to describe the mass killing of Armenians.

April 24th. Is the official day of commemoration of the Armenian Genocide. On that day in 1915 the Ottoman authorities arrested 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders who were eventually killed.

Armenians all around the world gather every year on April 24th. to remember, honor, reflect, and demand that Turkey's Government live up to its obligation and recognize its shameful and barbaric act against its citizens. The current government of Turkey still fervently denies that Turkey ever committed a Genocide against its Armenian minority.

Roar remembers the Armenian Genocide this April and every April. To learn about the history and bring more recognition to the Genocide visit the following sites:

www.genocideproject.net (http://www.genocideproject.net/)
www.twentyvoices.com (http://www.twentyvoices.com/)
www.genocideeducation.org (http://www.genocideeducation.org/)
www.armeniafund.org (http://www.armeniafund.org/)
www.armenian-genocide.org (http://www.armenian-genocide.org/)

[Jeffery Celion]

Armenians are one of the most ancient peoples of the Near East, having lived in the southern Caucasus region for as long as 3,000 years. Christianized early in the first millennium, they formed by the 19th century the largest non-Muslim population in the Ottoman Empire.

[Armento]

Another year passes with US not making a move in the direction of justice. I guess a part time strategic partner in the middle east is more important. So it goes.

RIP

[DJ Michael Terzian (Sinister)]

................