Is it okay to torture Al Qaida mastermind?

[MC]

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/03/pakistan.arrests/story.ksmohammed.ap.jpg

[ March 03, 2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Michael J. Carmona ]

[jsd540]

If membership is confirmed...they can provide intel...wtf why not !?!

[lyot]

no, plain and simple..

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Michael J. Carmona:
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/03/pakistan.arrests/story.ksmohammed.ap.jpgIt's Ron Jeremy after a night on the tiles. graemlins/rofl.gif

[AD]

No, but you know it will happen anyway. I don't care what BS they say about human rights. That's garbage and it doesn't take a genius to realize that it will happen.

[Jacques de Doozu]

Originally posted by Albert D.:
No, but you know it will happen anyway. I don't care what BS they say about human rights. That's garbage and it doesn't take a genius to realize that it will happen.hmmm...dangerous attitude albert.
my opinion: no

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Tom D:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Albert D.:
No, but you know it will happen anyway. I don't care what BS they say about human rights. That's garbage and it doesn't take a genius to realize that it will happen.hmmm...dangerous attitude albert.
my opinion: no</font>[/QUOTE]Is it right when a paedophile goes into prison, he gets battered/beaten by the screws/wardens, then they let the in-mates have a go aswell. The idea may be looked on as wrong but no one really minds.

[Jacques de Doozu]

Originally posted by Martin Red:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tom D:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Albert D.:
No, but you know it will happen anyway. I don't care what BS they say about human rights. That's garbage and it doesn't take a genius to realize that it will happen.hmmm...dangerous attitude albert.
my opinion: no</font>[/QUOTE]Is it right when a paedophile goes into prison, he gets battered/beaten by the screws/wardens, then they let the in-mates have a go aswell. The idea may be looked on as wrong but no one really minds.</font>[/QUOTE]i just don't think that it's right to 'assume' these things will happen. i know i'm not being realistic, but it's from an 'ethical' point of view. paedophiles should get boned by kids btw...on a voluntary basis offcourse (kids can be very cruel) graemlins/stupid.gif

[Martin Red]

I think the only time it is really really wrong is when they realise the people in prison are innocent.

E.G - The Birmingham six !

Inprisioned for the IRA bombings in Birmingham in the 70's

locked up, beaten for confessions, beaten in prison.

Released in the 80's, given millions compensation for the life they lost.

At least the West Midlands Seriuos Crime Squad have been disbanded, they where a crime wave.

[ March 04, 2003, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: Martin Red ]

[AD]

Originally posted by Tom D:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tom D:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Albert D.:
No, but you know it will happen anyway. I don't care what BS they say about human rights. That's garbage and it doesn't take a genius to realize that it will happen.hmmm...dangerous attitude albert.
my opinion: no</font>[/QUOTE]Is it right when a paedophile goes into prison, he gets battered/beaten by the screws/wardens, then they let the in-mates have a go aswell. The idea may be looked on as wrong but no one really minds.</font>[/QUOTE]i just don't think that it's right to 'assume' these things will happen. i know i'm not being realistic, but it's from an 'ethical' point of view. paedophiles should get boned by kids btw...on a voluntary basis offcourse (kids can be very cruel) graemlins/stupid.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Do you honestly believe that the U.S. government does not use torture as a means to get information from people? There is a reason why they won't bring him to the U.S. and it's because of all the laws and rights that he would have under our justice system, therefore, they'll keep him and interrogate him elsewhere. Anyone that doesn't think the U.S. uses torture as a way to get information from people must be in la la land.

[ March 04, 2003, 04:31 AM: Message edited by: Albert D. ]

[Monny JcIntosh]

Originally posted by Martin Red:
I think the only time it is really really wrong is when they realise the people in prison are innocent.
Before or after they realise they are innocent?

[Jacques de Doozu]

Originally posted by Albert D.:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tom D:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tom D:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Albert D.:
No, but you know it will happen anyway. I don't care what BS they say about human rights. That's garbage and it doesn't take a genius to realize that it will happen.hmmm...dangerous attitude albert.
my opinion: no</font>[/QUOTE]Is it right when a paedophile goes into prison, he gets battered/beaten by the screws/wardens, then they let the in-mates have a go aswell. The idea may be looked on as wrong but no one really minds.</font>[/QUOTE]i just don't think that it's right to 'assume' these things will happen. i know i'm not being realistic, but it's from an 'ethical' point of view. paedophiles should get boned by kids btw...on a voluntary basis offcourse (kids can be very cruel) graemlins/stupid.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Do you honestly believe that the U.S. government does not use torture as a means to get information from people? There is a reason why they won't bring him to the U.S. and it's because of all the laws and rights that he would have under our justice system, therefore, they'll keep him and interrogate him elsewhere. Anyone that doesn't think the U.S. uses torture as a way to get information from people must be in la la land.</font>[/QUOTE]i know. as i said, it's from an ethical point of view. the prisoners on guantanamo (sp?) bay have no rights, or legal status whatsoever, how does that comply with UN regulations? greetings from lala land anyhow graemlins/all_coholic.gif

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:
I think the only time it is really really wrong is when they realise the people in prison are innocent.
Before or after they realise they are innocent?</font>[/QUOTE]both, but obviously - people don't usually know until afterwards.

[lyot]

i have no single doubt the US is torturing.. Last week ,there was a professor from some kind of US university who wanted to make torturing legal under certain circumstances..His logic was that it happens anyway, so you better have a decent legal framework to avoid excesses.. I find it incredible to read statements like these in the year 2003..A governement that tortures captives, or has them tortured (there are reports saying that the US hands over Al Quaeda detainees to friendly foreign secret services to 'extract' evidence out of them) can not claim that she has morality on her side..How ridiculous is it to claim that you are doing a war for humanitarian purposes while it at the same time neglecting the most basic rights of human beings in captivity? It's sickening !

peace

[Monny JcIntosh]

I was passed some info from my girlfriend a while back about a prisoner in Guantanamo Bay, apparently the highest ranking Taliban offical captured at that time, who had died under interrogation and whose body was flown back to Pakistan. She works at Amnesty on Afghanistan (and is flying out there in three weeks time :( ) and part of her job is to keep track of reports like that, though it didn't appear to be reported outside of Pakistan. That torture should even be considered is despicable (innocent or not) and I'm really quite sad to read some of the comments on this thread.

[Constantin]

Originally posted by Martin Red:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:
I think the only time it is really really wrong is when they realise the people in prison are innocent.
Before or after they realise they are innocent?</font>[/QUOTE]both, but obviously - people don't usually know until afterwards.</font>[/QUOTE]so, doesn't that mean that - alone for this one reason - torture is never justified?

[DJ76]

It could very well be argued that, had Al Qaeda or Taliban soldiers detained American POWs, they sure would not shy away from using torture to get what they want out of them. But one must remember that reciprocity does not apply in international humanitarian law. The experience is as traumatizing for the detainee than for the one applying torture. In any case, it is never justified. Retribution doesn't have any legal nor moral justification.

My 2 cents.

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Constantin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:
I think the only time it is really really wrong is when they realise the people in prison are innocent.
Before or after they realise they are innocent?</font>[/QUOTE]both, but obviously - people don't usually know until afterwards.</font>[/QUOTE]so, doesn't that mean that - alone for this one reason - torture is never justified?</font>[/QUOTE]I suppose, if there is no trust in the Legal system what have we got left ?

[ngeso]

at present there is ongoing heated debate about the legalities of institutional torture in Germany.

in a spectacular turn of events a man, accused of kidnapping and murdering the 8 year old son of a very prominent banker and his wife for purposes of extortion last year, stands to be discharged because a full confession to the crime, made after police investigators threatened him with torture to determine the whereabouts of the child - at that time thought to be possibly alive - is not admissible (sp?) as evidence in a German court of law.

the senior police official (i'm not 100% sure, but i believe it was the Frankfurt chief of police) who led the investigations was fully aware of the legal implications of such a threat, and took great pains to document his threat towards the suspect on audio tape as well as in an elaborate report, that was submitted to the district attorney's office immediately after the interrogations. he now possibly faces indictment and a rather stiff prison sentence for his actions.

according to German law, torture is a magnitudinous criminal offence. torture cannot be administered under any circumstances, because it violates the personal dignity of the person being tortured. even in a case where it is argued that a crime, such as murder, might in effect be avoided, German law places the dignity of a person above the factual state of physical existence, i.e. "mere" life (or death). German law establishes, that, whereas a person, on death, ceases to physically exist, the dignity of a person extends indefinetly beyond the point of decease, and is therefore to be protected at all costs.

peace. ngeso.

[lyot]

did the US actually sign the UN Treaty Against Torture ? Does anyone know ?

peace

[Monny JcIntosh]

Originally posted by Martin Red:

I suppose, if there is no trust in the Legal system what have we got left ?Presumably, you have little enough trust in a system that got it wrong with the Birmingham six?

[mk7]

what kind of medieval sh*t is this? if there's any proof then this guy will get the death penalty anyway... Torture, jesus please no!

Still, who the f*ck is gonna stop the U.S. government doing whatever they want anyhow? And what are all those they showed their opposition to the war in marches across the world supposed to do when it kicks off anyway? burn a mcdonalds?!
there is nothing left but revolution...

peace (in troubled times)
mark

[ngeso]

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:

I suppose, if there is no trust in the Legal system what have we got left ?Presumably, you have little enough trust in a system that got it wrong with the Birmingham six?</font>[/QUOTE]Jonny, are the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four the same set of people, or was that another case? (the Guildford Four were portrayed in the movie "In The Name of the Father" starring Daniel Day-Lewis, Emma Thompson and Pete Postlethwaite)

peace. ngeso.

[Monny JcIntosh]

Originally posted by ngeso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:

I suppose, if there is no trust in the Legal system what have we got left ?Presumably, you have little enough trust in a system that got it wrong with the Birmingham six?</font>[/QUOTE]Jonny, are the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four the same set of people, or was that another case? (the Guildford Four were portrayed in the movie "In The Name of the Father" starring Daniel Day-Lewis, Emma Thompson and Pete Postlethwaite)

peace. ngeso.</font>[/QUOTE]Ngeso, different. They are probably the two best known examples of miscarriages of justice in the UK. The Guildford four were convicted on the basis of made up evidence of pub bombings in Guildford,the Birmingham six, also accused of pub bombings, were convicted on the basis of confessions that the jury were not allowed to see. The confessions were extremely dubious, inconsistent and had been beaten out of the suspects.

Just checking around for some info, check here (http://www.innocent.org.uk).

[DJ76]

Originally posted by lyot:
did the US actually sign the UN Treaty Against Torture ? Does anyone know ?

peaceThe US have signed but not ratified the Convention against torture, which means that although it isn't binding on the US, the latter must respect the spirit of the convention and its dispositions. I am not sure whether the US has made any reservations or declarations against the Convention or if it has shown some kind of customary attitude towards it. I'll investigate on this.

http://www.hrweb.org/legal/catsigs.html

[MC]

I honestly believe that he will be tortured and roughed up pretty bad.

[gabriel]

Do you honestly believe that the U.S. government does not use torture as a means to get information from people? There is a reason why they won't bring him to the U.S. and it's because of all the laws and rights that he would have under our justice system, therefore, they'll keep him and interrogate him elsewhere. [/QB]except that this is the same government system which is violating habeus corpus rights under the consitution with it's very own citizens right now b/c they've been declared 'enimy combatants'

whatever.

[DJ76]

Here we go, got some info on the US. It actually DID ratify the Convention, so the other info I found was outdated.

The US has actually ratified the Torture Convention on 21 October 1994. Upon ratification, the US filed a substantial number of reservations, understanding and declarations.

Reservations:

"I. The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following reservations:

(1) That the United States considers itself bound by the obligation under article 16 to prevent `cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment', only insofar as the term `cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment' means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.

(2) That pursuant to article 30 (2) the United States declares that it does not consider itself bound by Article 30 (1), but reserves the right specifically to agree to follow this or any other procedure for arbitration in a particular case.

II. The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following understandings, which shall apply to the obligations of the United States under this Convention:

(1) (a) That with reference to article 1, the United States understands that, in order to constitute torture, an act must be specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering and that mental pain or suffering refers to prolonged mental harm caused by or resulting from (1) the intentional infliction or threatened infliction of severe physical pain or suffering; (2) the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality; (3) the threat of imminent death; or (4) the threat that another person will imminently be subjected to death, severe physical pain or suffering, or the administration or application of mind altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or personality.

(b) That the United States understands that the definition of torture in article 1 is intended to apply only to acts directed against persons in the offender's custody or physical control.

(c) That with reference to article 1 of the Convention, the United States understands that `sanctions' includes judicially-imposed sanctions and other enforcement actions authorized by United States law or by judicial interpretation of such law. Nonetheless, the United States understands that a State Party could not through its domestic sanctions defeat the object and purpose of the Convention to prohibit torture.

(d) That with reference to article 1 of the Convention, the United States understands that the term `acquiescence' requires that the public official, prior to the activity constituting torture, have awareness of such activity and thereafter breach his legal responsibility to intervene to prevent such activity.

(e) That with reference to article 1 of the Convention, the Unites States understands that noncompliance with applicable legal procedural standards does not per se constitute torture.

(2) That the United States understands the phrase, `where there are substantial grounds for believing that he would be in danger of being subjected to torture,' as used in article 3 of the Convention, to mean `if it is more likely than not that he would be tortured.'

(3) That it is the understanding of the United States that article 14 requires a State Party to provide a private right of action for damages only for acts of torture committed in territory under the jurisdiction of that State Party.

(4) That the United States understands that international law does not prohibit the death penalty, and does not consider this Convention to restrict or prohibit the United States from applying the death penalty consistent with the Fifth, Eighth and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States, including any constitutional period of confinement prior to the imposition of the death penalty.

(5) That the United States understands that this Convention shall be implemented by the United States Government to the extent that it exercises legislative and judicial jurisdiction over the matters covered by the Convention and otherwise by the state and local governments. Accordingly, in implementing articles 10-14 and 16, the United States Government shall take measures appropriate to the Federal system to the end that the competent authorities of the constituent units of the United States of America may take appropriate measures for the fulfilment of the Convention.

III. The Senate's advice and consent is subject to the following declarations:

(1) That the United States declares that the provisions of articles 1 through 16 of the Convention are not self-executing.

[House]

Originally posted by lyot:
i have no single doubt the US is torturing.. Last week ,there was a professor from some kind of US university who wanted to make torturing legal under certain circumstances..His logic was that it happens anyway, so you better have a decent legal framework to avoid excesses.. I find it incredible to read statements like these in the year 2003..A governement that tortures captives, or has them tortured (there are reports saying that the US hands over Al Quaeda detainees to friendly foreign secret services to 'extract' evidence out of them) can not claim that she has morality on her side..How ridiculous is it to claim that you are doing a war for humanitarian purposes while it at the same time neglecting the most basic rights of human beings in captivity? It's sickening !

peacethats why america is well and deservedly hated

[MarkK]

I wonder how you all would react if this 'touture' resulted in the US preventing an Al Queda gas truck from blowing up a local gas station with your family in it?

As far as I can tell Al Queda did not sign the anti-torture treaty either?

[DJ76]

Originally posted by MarkK:
I wonder how you all would react if this 'touture' resulted in the US preventing an Al Queda gas truck from blowing up a local gas station with your family in it?

As far as I can tell Al Queda did not sign the anti-torture treaty either?That's why it's a delicate subject. On the one hand, you wanna show the world that you stand by your principles, on the other, you can bet your ass these people will NOT respect your rights if you were in their hand. What to do? Use double standards? Or stick by your principles hoping that one day, everyone will stick to it? One suggestion is idealistic while the other is very pragmatic.

Al Qaeda not being a State has not ratified the Convention. Neither has Pakistan, nor Iran, nor Iraq. Afghanistan has.

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by MarkK:
I wonder how you all would react if this 'touture' resulted in the US preventing an Al Queda gas truck from blowing up a local gas station with your family in it?

As far as I can tell Al Queda did not sign the anti-torture treaty either?The whole idea of the rule of law is that the ends do NOT justify the means. Your logic could be used to justify just about anything, no matter how heinous. If you had to work for Saddam to save him from killing your family, does that make working for Saddam morally acceptable?

[DJ76]

for those interested, a list of States that have ratified major int'l treaties. Updated 09 December 2002

http://www.unhchr.ch/pdf/report.pdf

[MC]

All these views are great, but be sure and cast your vote.

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:

I suppose, if there is no trust in the Legal system what have we got left ?Presumably, you have little enough trust in a system that got it wrong with the Birmingham six?</font>[/QUOTE]West Midlans Serious Crime squad was disbanded, due to this and another illegal activities and fit ups. I have more faith now than then.

I was basically saying to Constantin that if we can't trust the legal system before/ after/ during , then we are back to square one and Kangaroo courts and vigilantes are gonna be as trust worthy or just as bad as torture, beatings in prison.

[mdpm99]

IMHO: torture is wrong.

1) If one is confronted with a situation where thousands of lives may depend on just a few moments...then some will argue that you are getting close to where it might be necessary under those conditions.

2) If intelligent, sane individuals who are trained for this kind of work, "interrogation," then there should be enough sophisticated and humane means to extract information.

Keep in mind that motions are high now and radical statements come more easily (at either end of the political spectrum), but we cannot descend to this level, else we are no longer Americans.

In any case,I sure wouldn't want to be in his boots right now. Besides, I wonder "where's Harry" now?



d

"Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana." -Groucho Marx

[ March 04, 2003, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[jurren]

you can measure the state a society is in, by the way they treat their convicts.

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by david mancuso:
2) If intelligent, sane individuals who are trained for this kind of work, "interrogation," then there should be enough sophisticated and humane means to extract information.Good point. Sleep deprivation, playing Celine Dion in his cell 24 hours a day, etc. is probably more effective than ripping out fingernails or the rodent face mask. Drug him and psyop his ass.

[mdpm99]

.

[ March 04, 2003, 09:00 AM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[Constantin]

[/qb][/QUOTE]West Midlans Serious Crime squad was disbanded, due to this and another illegal activities and fit ups. I have more faith now than then.

I was basically saying to Constantin that if we can't trust the legal system before/ after/ during , then we are back to square one and Kangaroo courts and vigilantes are gonna be as trust worthy or just as bad as torture, beatings in prison.[/QB][/QUOTE]

you can trust into a system but should always be aware that the system is run by humans who make mistakes, might be corrupt etc. therefore it's important that checks and balances are working and that civil servants never have as much power that they can do irreversible physical harm to others ( torture, death penalty )

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ngeso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jonny McIntosh:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Martin Red:

I suppose, if there is no trust in the Legal system what have we got left ?Presumably, you have little enough trust in a system that got it wrong with the Birmingham six?</font>[/QUOTE]Jonny, are the Birmingham Six and the Guildford Four the same set of people, or was that another case? (the Guildford Four were portrayed in the movie "In The Name of the Father" starring Daniel Day-Lewis, Emma Thompson and Pete Postlethwaite)

peace. ngeso.</font>[/QUOTE]Ngeso, different. They are probably the two best known examples of miscarriages of justice in the UK. The Guildford four were convicted on the basis of made up evidence of pub bombings in Guildford,the Birmingham six, also accused of pub bombings, were convicted on the basis of confessions that the jury were not allowed to see. The confessions were extremely dubious, inconsistent and had been beaten out of the suspects.

Just checking around for some info, check here (http://www.innocent.org.uk).</font>[/QUOTE]My father is Irish and has lived in Birmingham since the fifties, so was around when the pub bombings happened, same as a lot of Irish friends.

We all talk on this board like everything is plain and simple, like a Lecture theatre, lets move out of the ACADEMIC world for a minute and let's step into the REAL world.

Before the recent spate of "oh the Irish" are so cool running through the green land with a pint of Murphy’s and the fresh wind blowing through their gently curled hair whilst they looked at the Blarney with their smiling blue eyes….. (well the Irish wasn’t as cool in England in the 70’s ……)

My dad walked into work the day after the bombings in Birmingham into his Birmingham workplace, and people who he had worked with for 20 years blanked him, totally ignored him due to the fact he was Irish. Irish got spat at, shouted at, generally abused. A friend of mines father was tied up for the whole day and beaten at points during the day by colleagues he thought were his friends.

How ever structured and intellecualised our comments are, we perhaps should realize that the world weaves a different path for people living in it, it’s easy to comment on it, that's for sure.

[ March 04, 2003, 10:07 AM: Message edited by: Martin Red ]

[MR. PLUSHEDOUT]

Torture his ass! AR15firing.gif He's not going to volunteer the information. And the info he can provide may save hundreds of thousands of American lives! Maybe even yours. So, those of you who don't believe this prick should be tortured, I hope you're not planning to fly anywhere, or go to a federal building any time soon! AR15firing.gif

[formerly known as kenspank]

the people elected and appointed to govern me have more rights than me.

if i were to torture somebody, i'd be locked up. if they do it, its a matter of national security.

needless to say, we all experience a mild amount of torture just living in this earth experience. if we look to any religious text, there is some sort of description of hell and what its like there. if you pay attention, you notice that description of hell describes the global state of mind we all agree to live in.

transcend this condition and create your own personal bliss on earth.

[danny webb]

i don't think torturing this fella will make any difference to the US (or western world in general), being attacked by terrorists. So those of you for torture, how do you justify it, aside from an eye for an eye?

[Bold Soul]

JUSTICE is simply the act of putting things in their proper place. Actions that create the conditions of justice must BE JUST. It is necessary to correct imbalance with BALANCE, not further imbalance in the opposite direction.

The means that are necessary to create a condition where justice can be achieved are unknown to us all. None of us understand what is going on behind closed doors. None of us understand what is truly at stake.

Is torture being committed? Is torture necessary? Do any of you armchair philosophers and politicians really wish to be responsible for these decisions?

On Planet Earth, ends justify means. The means are the responsibility of the few. The ends are criticized by the many.

[ March 04, 2003, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[jurren]

Originally posted by MR. PLUSHEDOUT:
Torture his ass! AR15firing.gif He's not going to volunteer the information. And the info he can provide may save hundreds of thousands of American lives! Maybe even yours. So, those of you who don't believe this prick should be tortured, I hope you're not planning to fly anywhere, or go to a federal building any time soon! AR15firing.gif remember that these guys are willing to die for what they believe in. do you honestly think they'll crack when put through some torture? they'll probably feel like extreme traitors to their friends when giving information that's classified.

jurren

[DJ76]

Originally posted by jurren:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MR. PLUSHEDOUT:
Torture his ass! AR15firing.gif He's not going to volunteer the information. And the info he can provide may save hundreds of thousands of American lives! Maybe even yours. So, those of you who don't believe this prick should be tortured, I hope you're not planning to fly anywhere, or go to a federal building any time soon! AR15firing.gif remember that these guys are willing to die for what they believe in. do you honestly think they'll crack when put through some torture? they'll probably feel like extreme traitors to their friends when giving information that's classified.

jurren</font>[/QUOTE]EXACTLY.

[danny webb]

Originally posted by jurren:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by MR. PLUSHEDOUT:
Torture his ass! AR15firing.gif He's not going to volunteer the information. And the info he can provide may save hundreds of thousands of American lives! Maybe even yours. So, those of you who don't believe this prick should be tortured, I hope you're not planning to fly anywhere, or go to a federal building any time soon! AR15firing.gif remember that these guys are willing to die for what they believe in. do you honestly think they'll crack when put through some torture? they'll probably feel like extreme traitors to their friends when giving information that's classified.

jurren</font>[/QUOTE]Not only this Jurren, but does anyone really think that this guys comrades think anything less than the US torturing him?
However the idea that his comrades think he is being tortured, and the vast majority of people (if asked) would think he is being tortured doesn't make it right.

[nev m]

T O R T U R E. Whichever way you look at it is wrong. Detaining him, sifting through evidence, intensely questioning him is right.

What you have to remember is the law carries through to everyones life, and with some different circumstances it could be your Mother,father,Brother, or friend having seven shades of s**t kicked out of them. How would one feel then ?

If found guilty he is gonna get f***ed over big time as soon as he hits jail, and this is probably going to continue for quite some time, and probably result in his death one way or another anyway.

All this said they're gonna whoop him anyway, and there's nothing we can say, or do that will change that.

Have a nice day.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by david mancuso:
2) If intelligent, sane individuals who are trained for this kind of work, "interrogation," then there should be enough sophisticated and humane means to extract information.Good point. Sleep deprivation, playing Celine Dion in his cell 24 hours a day, etc. is probably more effective than ripping out fingernails or the rodent face mask. Drug him and psyop his ass.</font>[/QUOTE]Word

24 hours of Celine Dion and Im singing like a bird.

[Bold Soul]

Offer the guy a MOVIE DEAL. He'll speak faster than if you pulled out a fingernail.

People romanticize the "zealot" angle and over-criticize American tactics. It's all propaganda. Why discuss something in which none of us are in control? It's all asinine and idle talk.

Too many bad action movies and not enough time in political science and humantities class. graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[ March 04, 2003, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
JUSTICE is simply the act of putting things in their proper place. Actions that create the conditions of justice must BE JUST. It is necessary to correct imbalance with BALANCE, not further imbalance in the opposite direction.

The means that are necessary to create a condition where justice can be achieved are unknown to us all. None of us understand what is going on behind closed doors. None of us understand what is truly at stake.

Is torture being committed? Is torture necessary? Do any of you armchair philosophers and politicians really wish to be responsible for these decisions?

On Planet Earth, ends justify means. The means are the responsibility of the few. The ends are criticized by the many..

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Why discuss something in which none of us are in control?Because this is a message board and that's what you do here.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Why discuss something in which none of us are in control?Because this is a message board and that's what you do here.</font>[/QUOTE]It's wise to speak only of oneself.

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Why discuss something in which none of us are in control?Because this is a message board and that's what you do here.</font>[/QUOTE]It's wise to speak only of oneself.</font>[/QUOTE]OK, it's a message board and that's what I do here. Probably nothing wise about it. But you don't think it's healthy for people to discuss the issues of the day, regardless of how far out their ass they're talking? You've expressed similar exasperation in the past ...

[mdpm99]

War is Expensive.

Peace is Priceless.

d

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Why discuss something in which none of us are in control?Because this is a message board and that's what you do here.</font>[/QUOTE]It's wise to speak only of oneself.</font>[/QUOTE]OK, it's a message board and that's what I do here. Probably nothing wise about it. But you don't think it's healthy for people to discuss the issues of the day, regardless of how far out their ass they're talking? You've expressed similar exasperation in the past ...</font>[/QUOTE]Careful. There is no "exasperation" as you put it on my part. Simply wondering whether anyone sees an imbalance between CAPABILITY and WILLINGNESS?

We are all WILLING to speak of things that we are not qualified to discuss, based on quality of information, availability of information and lack of consensus.

Frankly, I am at the point where I don't know WHO to believe. Are Europeans split because the Bush Administration is imperialistic and vindictive or because Europeans have a bitterness toward the US? Should I be against war in Iraq or the War on Terror because people who enjoy some of the same music I do disagree with it?

Everyone is biased and everyone is judging situations on limited and tainted information. As I said - armchair philosophers and politicians. With a few exceptions, none of you are in the game, but you all criticize.

Discussing world events on the same level as how many Gays and Blacks are responsible for the house scene or whether or not DJs should "play out" is pretty f*in ridiculous.

[ March 04, 2003, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[AD]

Originally posted by david mancuso:
War is Expensive.

Peace is Priceless.

dAmen to that!

[MR. PLUSHEDOUT]

BE WILLING TO DIE, AND BEING IN EXCRUCIATING PAIN ON A CONTINUOUS BASIS KNOWING THAT YOU CAN MAKE IT ALL STOP BY REVEALING SOME INFORMATION, IS TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. I'M PRETTY SURE HE'S NOT PREPARED TO GO THROUGH THE THINGS THAT HE'LL PROBABLY BE PUT THROUGH. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THAT ANYONE IS GOING TO EXTRACT ANY INFORMATION FROM HIM. NO, IT'S NOT PRETTY. WAR NEVER IS. NO, IT'S NOT HUMANE. BUT NEITHER IS FLYING 2 JUMBO JETS INTO A SKYSCRAPER KILLING THOUSANDS WITHOUT WARNING. YOU MUST UNDERSTAND, IF THE U.S. HADN'T HAD THEIR "DIRTY TRICKS" DEPT. OF THE C.I.A. HANDCUFFED, SEPT. 11 PROBABLY WOULD'VE BEE PREEMPTED. THIS GUY HAS THE INTELLIGENCE FIRST HAND TO PREVENT FUTURE ATTACKS! I SAY GLUE HIS EYES OPEN AND FORCE HIM TO WATCH "I LOVE LUCY" RERUNS! :eek:

[AD]

Originally posted by MR. PLUSHEDOUT:
BE WILLING TO DIE, AND BEING IN EXCRUCIATING PAIN ON A CONTINUOUS BASIS KNOWING THAT YOU CAN MAKE IT ALL STOP BY REVEALING SOME INFORMATION, IS TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. I'M PRETTY SURE HE'S NOT PREPARED TO GO THROUGH THE THINGS THAT HE'LL PROBABLY BE PUT THROUGH. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THAT ANYONE IS GOING TO EXTRACT ANY INFORMATION FROM HIM. NO, IT'S NOT PRETTY. WAR NEVER IS. NO, IT'S NOT HUMANE. BUT NEITHER IS FLYING 2 JUMBO JETS INTO A SKYSCRAPER KILLING THOUSANDS WITHOUT WARNING. YOU MUST UNDERSTAND, IF THE U.S. HADN'T HAD THEIR "DIRTY TRICKS" DEPT. OF THE C.I.A. HANDCUFFED, SEPT. 11 PROBABLY WOULD'VE BEE PREEMPTED. THIS GUY HAS THE INTELLIGENCE FIRST HAND TO PREVENT FUTURE ATTACKS! I SAY GLUE HIS EYES OPEN AND FORCE HIM TO WATCH "I LOVE LUCY" RERUNS! :eek: Quit yelling!!! My ears are bleeding. smokin.gif

[danny webb]

Originally posted by MR. PLUSHEDOUT:
BE WILLING TO DIE, AND BEING IN EXCRUCIATING PAIN ON A CONTINUOUS BASIS KNOWING THAT YOU CAN MAKE IT ALL STOP BY REVEALING SOME INFORMATION, IS TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. I'M PRETTY SURE HE'S NOT PREPARED TO GO THROUGH THE THINGS THAT HE'LL PROBABLY BE PUT THROUGH. THIS IS THE ONLY WAY THAT ANYONE IS GOING TO EXTRACT ANY INFORMATION FROM HIM. NO, IT'S NOT PRETTY. WAR NEVER IS. NO, IT'S NOT HUMANE. BUT NEITHER IS FLYING 2 JUMBO JETS INTO A SKYSCRAPER KILLING THOUSANDS WITHOUT WARNING. YOU MUST UNDERSTAND, IF THE U.S. HADN'T HAD THEIR "DIRTY TRICKS" DEPT. OF THE C.I.A. HANDCUFFED, SEPT. 11 PROBABLY WOULD'VE BEE PREEMPTED. THIS GUY HAS THE INTELLIGENCE FIRST HAND TO PREVENT FUTURE ATTACKS! I SAY GLUE HIS EYES OPEN AND FORCE HIM TO WATCH "I LOVE LUCY" RERUNS! :eek: Who validates the info once the US has it? Maybe he'll tell you Bin Laden is living in Baltimore, but watch your back whilst you look.

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Frankly, I am at the point where I don't know WHO to believe. Are Europeans split because the Bush Administration is imperialistic and vindictive or because Europeans have a bitterness toward the US? Should I be against war in Iraq or the War on Terror because people who enjoy some of the same music I do disagree with it?

Everyone is biased and everyone is judging situations on limited and tainted information. As I said - armchair philosophers and politicians. With a few exceptions, none of you are in the game, but you all criticize.

Discussing world events on the same level as how many Gays and Blacks are responsible for the house scene or whether or not DJs should "play out" is pretty f*in ridiculous.First off, I must admit, as an expat who rarely gets to debate in my own language these days, I come here for my political fix more than for the music stuff ... just because it's a music page doesn't mean the debate isn't at times very well informed.

Second - and this is why the conspiracy-theorizing rubs me the wrong way - I DON'T believe that those in charge make their decisions on perfect information. I bet I've read more books on the Middle East than George Bush has. I think classified information on which major historical decisions have been made have as often been wrong as right, either because of the politics of those who supply it or because of human error. And lastly, I think that ideology, prejudice and instinct enter into decision making at the top as much they do when we form our opinions here.

[MC]

I agree with torturing him. Torture his MONKEY ass, he deserves it. If he is willing to give information at his own will, then maybe less torturing will happen, but if he doesn't cooperate, then that's his ass !!!! PHUCK Al Qaida!

[DJ76]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
I DON'T believe that those in charge make their decisions on perfect information. [/QB]And you are damn right.

[DD Licious]

If I were the president, I could stop terrorist attacks against the United States in a few days. Permanently. I would first apologize to all the widows and orphans, the tortured and impoverished, and all the many millions of other victims of American imperialism. Then I would announce, in all sincerity, to every corner of the world, that America's global interventions have come to an end, and inform Israel that it is no longer the 51st state of the USA but now -- oddly enough -- a foreign country. I would then reduce the military budget by at least 90% and use the savings to pay reparations to the victims. There would be more than enough money. One year's military budget of 330 billion dollars is equal to more than $18,000 an hour for every hour since Jesus Christ was born. That's what I'd do on my first three days in the White House. On the fourth day, I'd be assassinated.

William Blum

Does anyone know this guy ?


Some links : http://www.zmag.org/ForeignPol/aboutblum.htm

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/William_Blum.html

[HML]

Folks, let's look at this thing logically. Capturing, detaining and extracting useful information from an enemy is very dirty business. I venture to say that most of us haven't a clue how to go about questioning a terrorist operative. Thankfully the people charged with the task of protecting our country do not share the pacifist attitudes of some of you... WAKE UP!!! We're not living in a peaceful world!! War and violence are prevalent and unending. You think you're gonna get what you need from one of these militant radicals by "killing them with kindness"? PUH-LEEZE!! :rolleyes: These Al Qaeda guys are hard core!!! Ever see that movie "The Terminator"? That's how these guys operate. They don't stop, quit, tire, give-up or concede... They can't be bought-off, reasoned with or persuaded to change their points-of-view. They are hell-bent on the annihilation of their perceived enemies. They are programmed (brain-washed) at a very young age. They are loyal to one another and completely devoted to their evil causes. And the icing on the cake is that they believe their's is a holy quest!!! They have God (Allah) on their side and they will be rewarded with a life in paradise for smiting the wicked and moral-less from the earth. Now you tell me... you gonna sit down, talk rationally over a cup of ****in' tea and get the info you need? Unequivocally, I say use whatever means necessary to get the job done.. Al Qaeda sure follows that principle!! Why shouldn't we?

-HML

[HML]

Originally posted by Martin Red:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Michael J. Carmona:
http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2003/WORLD/asiapcf/south/03/03/pakistan.arrests/story.ksmohammed.ap.jpgIt's Ron Jeremy after a night on the tiles. graemlins/rofl.gif </font>[/QUOTE]Now, THAT was FUNNY!! graemlins/lol.gif graemlins/grinyes.gif graemlins/grinyes.gif graemlins/lol.gif

[danny webb]

If these al quaeda Terminators are as hardcore as you say (and I suspect they are), what in the world makes you think any amount of torturous activity is going to get any useful info out of him/them. That is my point, a waste of time & money, but shit I forget that's what governments are there for.

[JR JAM]

This seems to come from one of the scenes in the tv show called '24'.

http://us.ent4.yimg.com/tv.yahoo.com/tv/photos/ed/00/240019.jpg

[Constantin]

Originally posted by HML:
Unequivocally, I say use whatever means necessary to get the job done.. Al Qaeda sure follows that principle!! Why shouldn't we?

-HMLalright, where's the difference between a terrorist group and the government of a democratic state then

[Balactus]

Originally posted by JR JAM:
This seems to come from one of the scenes in the tv show called '24'.

http://us.ent4.yimg.com/tv.yahoo.com/tv/photos/ed/00/240019.jpgthat show is the shit!!!

w

[Balactus]

Originally posted by danny webb:
If these al quaeda Terminators are as hardcore as you say (and I suspect they are), what in the world makes you think any amount of torturous activity is going to get any useful info out of him/them. That is my point, a waste of time & money, but shit I forget that's what governments are there for.because everybody breaks eventually.

w

[martino]

Who says this guy is the brains behind al queda? theyre blaming this slob for every single thing thats happend in 5 years. And who's the "they" that i'm talking about? the FBI? the CIA? the same people who gave us a list of the 19 sept11 hijackers of whom 7 are still alive and not terrorists? c'mon.
Why do you think all this info since the war on terror has been false (orange alert, the 5 terrorists from canada etc). one of the reasons is these guys are being tortured (contracted to Pakistani officials to keep it "legal") and these prisoners are talking pure shit cause they dont know shit. thats how cells work. And it's proven that torture doesnt provide results consistently.
If youre worried about preventing something horrible so you torture me, i'm gonna make shit up. and the officials wont know if the event that was "supposed" to happen was cancelled cause i was detained and therefore parties involved in my (fake) plans cancelled the attack cause they assumed i'd squeal. there's no way of knowing.
Again, look at israel. they legalized it, and it got way out of hand so they had to curb it. guess what they found out? that it barely ever works. so its not an end that justifies the means.

[ March 04, 2003, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: martino ]

[HML]

Originally posted by danny webb:
If these al quaeda Terminators are as hardcore as you say (and I suspect they are), what in the world makes you think any amount of torturous activity is going to get any useful info out of him/them. That is my point, a waste of time & money, but shit I forget that's what governments are there for.danny, I hear what you're saying but, every man has a breaking point... something that they cannot endure. Besides, torture can also be mental/psychological (ie sleep deprivation).

-HML

[MC]

TORTURE his MONKEY ass !!!!!!

[Bold Soul]

No one knows anything. Period. No one's Gov't is sharing total information. Forgive me if I don't fall in line with the rest of the peaceniks and Anti-US crowd. I'm a skeptic on ALL levels. And I think I'm responsible enough to reserve judgement in cases where I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.

Everyone else who wants to criticize and judge between bong hits can do so at their leisure.

As I said before, APATHY IS THE NORM - even among the "peace" crowd.

[HML]

Originally posted by Constantin:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by HML:
Unequivocally, I say use whatever means necessary to get the job done.. Al Qaeda sure follows that principle!! Why shouldn't we?

-HMLalright, where's the difference between a terrorist group and the government of a democratic state then</font>[/QUOTE]That "difference" was eradicated, rendered null and void by events that occurred on September 11, 2001! We're playin' by a whole new set of rules now...

-HML

[Austin/Dallas]

If they get him addicted to some these drugs over here he'll talk for sure..

[HML]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
No one knows anything. Period. No one's Gov't is sharing total information. Forgive me if I don't fall in line with the rest of the peaceniks and Anti-US crowd. I'm a skeptic on ALL levels. And I think I'm responsible enough to reserve judgement in cases where I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.

Everyone else who wants to criticize and judge between bong hits can do so at their leisure.

As I said before, APATHY IS THE NORM - even among the "peace" crowd.graemlins/clap.gif Well said Bold One!!

-HML

[mdpm99]

Where's Harry?

d

[Recondo]

You people make me f u c k i n g sick. I am sitting here actually about to vomit from reading your f u c k i n g bulls h i t.

57% say no torture? F U C K you and your high f u c k i n g horse, b i t c h e s!!!

I can understand the peace movement, they don't want a war-that is really understandable and I can even agree with some of their ideas. But whether or not we torture the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks to get information from him? S h i t, we should f u c k i n g torture him for fun. We should f u c k i n g put him in Times Square for 2004 New Years and light him up instead of the ball! There is NO f u c k i n g debate over this you morons...the damage from 9/11 has been felt ten-fold. Just listen to the sorry, broke ass m o t h e r f u c k e r s on this board alone and you know what's up. Torture him, cook him and eat him, kill him, dis-member ande dis-embowel him for all I care. You are the f u c k i n g heartless ones who have forgotten the day the towers fell and that is why you will never be able to feel like real Americans for the rest of your sorry lives.

I feel sick because of you, absolutely sick you mangy, flea-bitten mongrols.

[HML]

DAYUMMMMM Recondo!! Tell all these pacifists what the real deal is... It ain't about "turning the other cheek" right now! graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[MC]

Originally posted by Recondo:
You people make me f u c k i n g sick. I am sitting here actually about to vomit from reading your f u c k i n g bulls h i t.

57% say no torture? F U C K you and your high f u c k i n g horse, b i t c h e s!!!

I can understand the peace movement, they don't want a war-that is really understandable and I can even agree with some of their ideas. But whether or not we torture the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks to get information from him? S h i t, we should f u c k i n g torture him for fun. We should f u c k i n g put him in Times Square for 2004 New Years and light him up instead of the ball! There is NO f u c k i n g debate over this you morons...the damage from 9/11 has been felt ten-fold. Just listen to the sorry, broke ass m o t h e r f u c k e r s on this board alone and you know what's up. Torture him, cook him and eat him, kill him, dis-member ande dis-embowel him for all I care. You are the f u c k i n g heartless ones who have forgotten the day the towers fell and that is why you will never be able to feel like real Americans for the rest of your sorry lives.

I feel sick because of you, absolutely sick you mangy, flea-bitten mongrols.PHUCK AL QAIDA...Do everything and anything possible to make the BIOTCH talk.

[Balactus]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
No one knows anything. Period. No one's Gov't is sharing total information. Forgive me if I don't fall in line with the rest of the peaceniks and Anti-US crowd. I'm a skeptic on ALL levels. And I think I'm responsible enough to reserve judgement in cases where I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.

Everyone else who wants to criticize and judge between bong hits can do so at their leisure.

As I said before, APATHY IS THE NORM - even among the "peace" crowd.right on. it is truly shocking how much sympathy this f u c k is getting on this board.

w

[Recondo]

Originally posted by HML:
DAYUMMMMM Recondo!! Tell all these pacifists what the real deal is... It ain't about "turning the other cheek" right now! graemlins/jpshakehead.gif Right, not right now...If you wanna' go on about the war being stupid and all of that kind of talk, FINE. BUT, AL QUAEDA HAS TO GO DOWN BY ANY AND ALL MEANS NECESSARY!!! They had no problem taking out our buildings, planes and civilians by any means necessary. I have no problem with splashing those b i t c h e s with some 9mm Sub-sonic Hydra Shock hollow point heavy loads either. **** that shit...put me in the ****ing room with him...I am very creative indeed...I would make him talk, believe me.

If you don't agree with this the go f u c k yourself. Lead, follow or get out of the way you little pansy b i t c h e s.

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by Recondo:
You people make me f u c k i n g sick. I am sitting here actually about to vomit from reading your f u c k i n g bulls h i t.

57% say no torture? F U C K you and your high f u c k i n g horse, b i t c h e s!!!

I can understand the peace movement, they don't want a war-that is really understandable and I can even agree with some of their ideas. But whether or not we torture the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks to get information from him? S h i t, we should f u c k i n g torture him for fun. We should f u c k i n g put him in Times Square for 2004 New Years and light him up instead of the ball! There is NO f u c k i n g debate over this you morons...the damage from 9/11 has been felt ten-fold. Just listen to the sorry, broke ass m o t h e r f u c k e r s on this board alone and you know what's up. Torture him, cook him and eat him, kill him, dis-member ande dis-embowel him for all I care. You are the f u c k i n g heartless ones who have forgotten the day the towers fell and that is why you will never be able to feel like real Americans for the rest of your sorry lives.

I feel sick because of you, absolutely sick you mangy, flea-bitten mongrols.Greetings Recondo,

Have we come so far from our roots that any of us can openly endorse torture? In all the history of WWII and of all the reasons we could have used, we did not torture POWs - Japanese or German - although they commonly abused our own soldiers. In fact, Ike and MacArthur went to some lengths to let the world witness that we complied with the Geneva Convention on treatment of POWs. We did the same in Korea, and in Kuwait. Abusive action is criminal and grounds for a court martial. In Viet Nam, I'm not so sure...I have read several accounts of abuse by our troops.

(Sodium pentithal i.e. "TRUTH SERUM" is one very good tool to use).

I do not want to underestimate our advisory either, but "WE" all want justice, Recondo.

peace,

d

[lyot]

Recondo, i can feel your pain , but again, you can not go lower then the norms and values your society is based upon.. Accept it..

[Bold Soul]

Seriously angry thoughts...

Where the heck is all this PEACE that needs to be preserved? Where is it?

It isn't where I live. It isn't where anyone I know lives. Everyone I know doesn't have peace in their city, in their neighborhood, on their block - hell, IN THEIR HOUSE!

Everywhere I go, I see no peace. I see no peace in the companies I do business with. I see no peace in the relationships I have. I see no peace among those who espouse peace.

I'll give peace a chance when you overweight, good time, euphoria addicted sloths show it to me. Until then, if I want to eat, I have to wage war in business. If I want to advance in my career, I have to wage war in the industry. If I want to be a good father and patriarch, I have to wage war on several different fronts.

Tell some of these German peaceniks to stop calling my nephew "AMERICAN NIGGER" in his school and on the playground in Frankfurt. Give peace a chance in the German Principal's Office.

When one decides to develop and approach their own greatness, it isn't a matter of WILL they have enemies, but what they will do to vanquish their enemies.

In this game, there are many players but only one big blue ball. Don't hate the player...hate the game.

[mdpm99]

Main Entry: pac·i·fism
Pronunciation: 'pa-s&-"fi-z&m
Function: noun
Etymology: French pacifisme, from pacifique pacific
Date: 1902
1 : opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes; specifically : refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds
2 : an attitude or policy of nonresistance
- pac·i·fist /-fist/ noun

[D J 1 3 8]

I echo David's sentiments.

The western world decided long ago that we, as human beings, must rise above our medieval past and become better more enlightened people who believe that all human life has the same inherent value. It is principles like these that I would hope would differentiate us from the terrorists of the world. Not targeting civillians is another example.

Whether the U.S. has remained true to these ideals is another debate, but I'm speaking of principals.

To torture anybody, no matter how heinous their crimes, makes you no better than them. This is why we all signed the Geneva convention way back when. It is an issue of human rights.

In times like these it is easy to be tempted to put aside such principals, but that would be our downfall. It is precisely these principals that Americans are fighting and dying for at home and abroad.

"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin Franklin

[lyot]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Seriously angry thoughts...

Where the heck is all this PEACE that needs to be preserved? Where is it?

It isn't where I live. It isn't where anyone I know lives. Everyone I know doesn't have peace in their city, in their neighborhood, on their block - hell, IN THEIR HOUSE!

Everywhere I go, I see no peace. I see no peace in the companies I do business with. I see no peace in the relationships I have. I see no peace among those who espouse peace.

I'll give peace a chance when you overweight, good time, euphoria addicted sloths show it to me. Until then, if I want to eat, I have to wage war in business. If I want to advance in my career, I have to wage war in the industry. If I want to be a good father and patriarch, I have to wage war on several different fronts.

Tell some of these German peaceniks to stop calling my nephew "AMERICAN NIGGER" in his school and on the playground in Frankfurt. Give peace a chance in the German Principal's Office.

When one decides to develop and approach their own greatness, it isn't a matter of WILL they have enemies, but what they will do to vanquish their enemies.

In this game, there are many players but only one big blue ball. Don't hate the player...hate the game.well, if you tackle problems in an unilateral way, like your governement does, be sure to have even less peace in the future..

[Recondo]

Originally posted by david mancuso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Recondo:
You people make me f u c k i n g sick. I am sitting here actually about to vomit from reading your f u c k i n g bulls h i t.

57% say no torture? F U C K you and your high f u c k i n g horse, b i t c h e s!!!

I can understand the peace movement, they don't want a war-that is really understandable and I can even agree with some of their ideas. But whether or not we torture the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks to get information from him? S h i t, we should f u c k i n g torture him for fun. We should f u c k i n g put him in Times Square for 2004 New Years and light him up instead of the ball! There is NO f u c k i n g debate over this you morons...the damage from 9/11 has been felt ten-fold. Just listen to the sorry, broke ass m o t h e r f u c k e r s on this board alone and you know what's up. Torture him, cook him and eat him, kill him, dis-member ande dis-embowel him for all I care. You are the f u c k i n g heartless ones who have forgotten the day the towers fell and that is why you will never be able to feel like real Americans for the rest of your sorry lives.

I feel sick because of you, absolutely sick you mangy, flea-bitten mongrols.Greetings Recondo,

Have we come so far from our roots that any of us can openly endorse torture? In all the history of WWII and of all the reasons we could have used, we did not torture POWs - Japanese or German - although they commonly abused our own soldiers. In fact, Ike and MacArthur went to some lengths to let the world witness that we complied with the Geneva Convention on treatment of POWs. We did the same in Korea, and in Kuwait. Abusive action is criminal and grounds for a court martial. In Viet Nam, I'm not so sure...I have read several accounts of abuse by our troops.

(Sodium pentithal i.e. "TRUTH SERUM" is one very good tool to use).

I do not want to underestimate our advisory either, but "WE" all want justice, Recondo.

peace,

d</font>[/QUOTE]Peace and Blessings to you David...

"WE" all want justice is a sentence that is thrown around these days as much as the words "I love you". After hearing it over and over it begins to lose its meaning. Time, David. TIME. Time is slipping away and more than ever I see an attitude developing amongst my fellow Americans and even my fellow New Yorkers. It is an attitude of apathy and complacency. An attitude that renders them immobile. An attitude that does not secure our people or take care of the problem we are encountering with global terrorism.

While I feel that torture is dispicable and obviously illegal, I also believe this applies to soldiers and citizens. When the individuals who committed the 9-11 attacks went through with their plans, I believe they forfeited their global citizenship. Would you have allowed Hitler the opportunity to not talk if we got him in a dark lit room with a hot lamp? Don't think about his life. He is a "martyr" fighting for "Allah". He is willing to die so his life is worthless. Why not get some information from him that will possibly save countless lives on his way down to the fiery pits of hell?

Thanks for your concern David. I know that you are a peaceful individual and I believe that our views are actually in line (as to what the world should be like). It is just our methodology that differs.

[Recondo]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Seriously angry thoughts...

Where the heck is all this PEACE that needs to be preserved? Where is it?

It isn't where I live. It isn't where anyone I know lives. Everyone I know doesn't have peace in their city, in their neighborhood, on their block - hell, IN THEIR HOUSE!

Everywhere I go, I see no peace. I see no peace in the companies I do business with. I see no peace in the relationships I have. I see no peace among those who espouse peace.

I'll give peace a chance when you overweight, good time, euphoria addicted sloths show it to me. Until then, if I want to eat, I have to wage war in business. If I want to advance in my career, I have to wage war in the industry. If I want to be a good father and patriarch, I have to wage war on several different fronts.

Tell some of these German peaceniks to stop calling my nephew "AMERICAN NIGGER" in his school and on the playground in Frankfurt. Give peace a chance in the German Principal's Office.

When one decides to develop and approach their own greatness, it isn't a matter of WILL they have enemies, but what they will do to vanquish their enemies.

In this game, there are many players but only one big blue ball. Don't hate the player...hate the game.My sentiments exactly! No one deserves to be called a nigger. They wage war on that poor kid every day. He has got to fight back to make hhis place in the world and make a dent. Otherwise he has no place, he has not staked a claim.

Bold, how's the film coming along?

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by Recondo:
[QUOTE]He is willing to die so his life is worthless. All American soldiers are willing to die as well. This doesn't make their life worthless.

[MR. PLUSHEDOUT]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
No one knows anything. Period. No one's Gov't is sharing total information. Forgive me if I don't fall in line with the rest of the peaceniks and Anti-US crowd. I'm a skeptic on ALL levels. And I think I'm responsible enough to reserve judgement in cases where I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.

Everyone else who wants to criticize and judge between bong hits can do so at their leisure.

As I said before, APATHY IS THE NORM - even among the "peace" crowd.graemlins/lol.gif TORTURE HIS ASS TOO. MAKE HIM WATCH CLIPS FROM "THE DISAPPEARANCE OF DONNIE BISHOP" graemlins/lol.gif

[flypitcher]

David Mancuso I think you are a little bit nieve if you think America and its allies never tortured prisoners . We did.
Remember the victors of wars are never put on trial for war crimes.

[lyot]

Originally posted by flypitcher:
David Mancuso I think you are a little bit nieve if you think America and its allies never tortured prisoners . We did.
Remember the victors of wars are never put on trial for war crimes.goddamnit flypitcher, for the first time we agree on something.. :D ;)

peace

[mdpm99]

Originally posted by flypitcher:
David Mancuso I think you are a little bit nieve if you think America and its allies never tortured prisoners . We did.
Remember the victors of wars are never put on trial for war crimes.I suppose I am in that respect, flypitcher & lyot.

Now the three of us agree on the same thing.

smile.gif

d

To the victors of wars, go the spoils

[ March 04, 2003, 02:25 PM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

[lyot]

;)

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Seriously angry thoughts...

Where the heck is all this PEACE that needs to be preserved? Where is it?

It isn't where I live. It isn't where anyone I know lives. Everyone I know doesn't have peace in their city, in their neighborhood, on their block - hell, IN THEIR HOUSE!

Everywhere I go, I see no peace. I see no peace in the companies I do business with. I see no peace in the relationships I have. I see no peace among those who espouse peace.

I'll give peace a chance when you overweight, good time, euphoria addicted sloths show it to me. Until then, if I want to eat, I have to wage war in business. If I want to advance in my career, I have to wage war in the industry. If I want to be a good father and patriarch, I have to wage war on several different fronts.

Tell some of these German peaceniks to stop calling my nephew "AMERICAN NIGGER" in his school and on the playground in Frankfurt. Give peace a chance in the German Principal's Office.

When one decides to develop and approach their own greatness, it isn't a matter of WILL they have enemies, but what they will do to vanquish their enemies.

In this game, there are many players but only one big blue ball. Don't hate the player...hate the game.Comparing your nephew getting called bad names to actual war is laughable.

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Seriously angry thoughts...

Where the heck is all this PEACE that needs to be preserved? Where is it?

It isn't where I live. It isn't where anyone I know lives. Everyone I know doesn't have peace in their city, in their neighborhood, on their block - hell, IN THEIR HOUSE!

Everywhere I go, I see no peace. I see no peace in the companies I do business with. I see no peace in the relationships I have. I see no peace among those who espouse peace.

I'll give peace a chance when you overweight, good time, euphoria addicted sloths show it to me. Until then, if I want to eat, I have to wage war in business. If I want to advance in my career, I have to wage war in the industry. If I want to be a good father and patriarch, I have to wage war on several different fronts.

Tell some of these German peaceniks to stop calling my nephew "AMERICAN NIGGER" in his school and on the playground in Frankfurt. Give peace a chance in the German Principal's Office.

When one decides to develop and approach their own greatness, it isn't a matter of WILL they have enemies, but what they will do to vanquish their enemies.

In this game, there are many players but only one big blue ball. Don't hate the player...hate the game.Comparing the corporate world to actual war is laughable as well.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Seriously angry thoughts...

Where the heck is all this PEACE that needs to be preserved? Where is it?

It isn't where I live. It isn't where anyone I know lives. Everyone I know doesn't have peace in their city, in their neighborhood, on their block - hell, IN THEIR HOUSE!

Everywhere I go, I see no peace. I see no peace in the companies I do business with. I see no peace in the relationships I have. I see no peace among those who espouse peace.

I'll give peace a chance when you overweight, good time, euphoria addicted sloths show it to me. Until then, if I want to eat, I have to wage war in business. If I want to advance in my career, I have to wage war in the industry. If I want to be a good father and patriarch, I have to wage war on several different fronts.

Tell some of these German peaceniks to stop calling my nephew "AMERICAN NIGGER" in his school and on the playground in Frankfurt. Give peace a chance in the German Principal's Office.

When one decides to develop and approach their own greatness, it isn't a matter of WILL they have enemies, but what they will do to vanquish their enemies.

In this game, there are many players but only one big blue ball. Don't hate the player...hate the game.Comparing your nephew getting called bad names to actual war is laughable.</font>[/QUOTE]Only as laughable as your lack of a sense of irony. :rolleyes: Please tell me than my Yankee sense of prose did not go over your head.

Hypocrites all. Each nation on this earth has enjoyed a period of dominance. The USA is now enjoying its time on top. Life goes on.

[flypitcher]

Should the Ticking Bomb terrorist be tortured?

"Firstly, is torture ever just? By what rules am I making my judgement (strong, weak, none). If it is just,
how are we to determine when and to what point we can establish that it's OK to torture? In other
words, is it possible for man to establish a universal law stating an "it depends on the case" law about
torture? Finally, what does Justice prevent us from doing if we allow torture? Does it prevent
anything?



Arguably one response could be: To act justly is to maximise the benefit for the greatest possible
number. The moral agent firstly decides to torture the terrorist in order to obtain the information that
allows to disarm the ticking bomb, thus saving thousands of people.

Secondly the moral agent asks
for a trial, pleads guilty to torture (and if the terrorist died also guilty of man-slaughter or murder
depending on the circumstances ) and accepts the full punishment of the law for his case, thus saving
the community from the idea that torture is acceptable."

dug this quote out for your nourishment.

[richierich]

Totrure??? Just tell his ass to keep looking in the damn mirror, that should be torture enough!!!

[ngeso]

some of this stuff being said is making me sick to my stomach. graemlins/puke.gif

[mhd]

Originally posted by flypitcher:
Should the Ticking Bomb terrorist be tortured?

"Firstly, is torture ever just? By what rules am I making my judgement (strong, weak, none). If it is just,
how are we to determine when and to what point we can establish that it's OK to torture? In other
words, is it possible for man to establish a universal law stating an "it depends on the case" law about
torture? Finally, what does Justice prevent us from doing if we allow torture? Does it prevent
anything?



Arguably one response could be: To act justly is to maximise the benefit for the greatest possible
number. The moral agent firstly decides to torture the terrorist in order to obtain the information that
allows to disarm the ticking bomb, thus saving thousands of people.

Secondly the moral agent asks
for a trial, pleads guilty to torture (and if the terrorist died also guilty of man-slaughter or murder
depending on the circumstances ) and accepts the full punishment of the law for his case, thus saving
the community from the idea that torture is acceptable."

dug this quote out for your nourishment.very interesting scenario, the way it is portrayed, the assumption is the "terrorist" is a criminal and the interrogators represent a just society and the casualties would be "innocent victims". i guess you could call Columbus and George Washington and George Custer terrorists. i wonder how this scenario plays out if you put the Japanese in WWII as the interrogators and the captured pilots of the Enola Gay as the prisoners. (Enola Gay was the plane that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima) Would it be okay to torture them?

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flypitcher:
Should the Ticking Bomb terrorist be tortured?

"Firstly, is torture ever just? By what rules am I making my judgement (strong, weak, none). If it is just,
how are we to determine when and to what point we can establish that it's OK to torture? In other
words, is it possible for man to establish a universal law stating an "it depends on the case" law about
torture? Finally, what does Justice prevent us from doing if we allow torture? Does it prevent
anything?



Arguably one response could be: To act justly is to maximise the benefit for the greatest possible
number. The moral agent firstly decides to torture the terrorist in order to obtain the information that
allows to disarm the ticking bomb, thus saving thousands of people.

Secondly the moral agent asks
for a trial, pleads guilty to torture (and if the terrorist died also guilty of man-slaughter or murder
depending on the circumstances ) and accepts the full punishment of the law for his case, thus saving
the community from the idea that torture is acceptable."

dug this quote out for your nourishment.very interesting scenario, the way it is portrayed, the assumption is the "terrorist" is a criminal and the interrogators represent a just society and the casualties would be "innocent victims". i guess you could call Columbus and George Washington and George Custer terrorists. i wonder how this scenario plays out if you put the Japanese in WWII as the interrogators and the captured pilots of the Enola Gay as the prisoners. (Enola Gay was the plane that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima) Would it be okay to torture them?</font>[/QUOTE]Perception.

[imported_Gman]

Originally posted by Recondo:
You people make me f u c k i n g sick. I am sitting here actually about to vomit from reading your f u c k i n g bulls h i t.

57% say no torture? F U C K you and your high f u c k i n g horse, b i t c h e s!!!

I can understand the peace movement, they don't want a war-that is really understandable and I can even agree with some of their ideas. But whether or not we torture the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks to get information from him? S h i t, we should f u c k i n g torture him for fun. We should f u c k i n g put him in Times Square for 2004 New Years and light him up instead of the ball! There is NO f u c k i n g debate over this you morons...the damage from 9/11 has been felt ten-fold. Just listen to the sorry, broke ass m o t h e r f u c k e r s on this board alone and you know what's up. Torture him, cook him and eat him, kill him, dis-member ande dis-embowel him for all I care. You are the f u c k i n g heartless ones who have forgotten the day the towers fell and that is why you will never be able to feel like real Americans for the rest of your sorry lives.

I feel sick because of you, absolutely sick you mangy, flea-bitten mongrols.Recondo, not that you care but you have to try to follow the rules on this board. Timeout goes to you.

-G

[mhd]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by flypitcher:
Should the Ticking Bomb terrorist be tortured?

"Firstly, is torture ever just? By what rules am I making my judgement (strong, weak, none). If it is just,
how are we to determine when and to what point we can establish that it's OK to torture? In other
words, is it possible for man to establish a universal law stating an "it depends on the case" law about
torture? Finally, what does Justice prevent us from doing if we allow torture? Does it prevent
anything?



Arguably one response could be: To act justly is to maximise the benefit for the greatest possible
number. The moral agent firstly decides to torture the terrorist in order to obtain the information that
allows to disarm the ticking bomb, thus saving thousands of people.

Secondly the moral agent asks
for a trial, pleads guilty to torture (and if the terrorist died also guilty of man-slaughter or murder
depending on the circumstances ) and accepts the full punishment of the law for his case, thus saving
the community from the idea that torture is acceptable."

dug this quote out for your nourishment.very interesting scenario, the way it is portrayed, the assumption is the "terrorist" is a criminal and the interrogators represent a just society and the casualties would be "innocent victims". i guess you could call Columbus and George Washington and George Custer terrorists. i wonder how this scenario plays out if you put the Japanese in WWII as the interrogators and the captured pilots of the Enola Gay as the prisoners. (Enola Gay was the plane that dropped the bomb on Hiroshima) Would it be okay to torture them?</font>[/QUOTE]Perception.</font>[/QUOTE]Perpesctive

[MC]

Hang that MO FO in Town Square!!!

[mhd]

Originally posted by Michael J. Carmona:
Hang that MO FO in Town Square!!!just like back in the good ol' days!!

[Bold Soul]

Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.

[Dr. Freud]

A short essay written by James Dunningham, Korean War veteran, military historian, who helps to design "wargames" for the U.S. Army:

"Torture is a subject bound to come up in war - especially a war centering on terrorists. Does torture work? It depends. It depends on who is asking the questions and who is being asked.

An expert interrogator can get information out of almost anyone. But there are many people who resist torture unto death. While some people respond more to torture than to psychological pressure, the widespread use of torture is generally an indication of a lack of experienced interrogators.

This is the situation facing the United States now. With more than a thousand, mainly Arab, al Qaeda suspects in custody, America doesn't have enough experienced, Arab-speaking interrogators to get much out of these suspects. Some of these hard-core terrorist suspects may talk under torture, but true believers tend to resist physical pressure well.

For thousands of years, torture was a common practice. But a lot of that torture was done not just to obtain information, but more often to terrorize a population or, as fans of violent sports are reluctant to admit, there's entertainment value. The 20th century brought the scientific method to bear on the use of torture. When the objective was mainly to obtain information, be it military secrets or a confession from someone innocent of a crime, then many new forms of torture were developed, perfected and widely used. But one constant was the need for an expert interrogator.

This has long been recognized. The infamous medieval Inquisition used a lot more quiet questioning than it did gruesome forms of physical torture. The 20th century torturers also perfected the art of psychological torture. The best criminal investigators have a large bag of interrogation techniques, which often obtain the desired information without any physical contact with the suspect.

The Soviet Union, over its seven decades of existence, literally wrote the book on non-physical torture. Part of this was due to the nature of the communist nations. They were police states and were constantly on the lookout for disloyalty. But the Soviet Union had another major advantage; it was able to create thousands of expert, career interrogators. These were men, and a few women, who spent decades perfecting their skills. The Soviet Union had several college level institutions that amassed and passed on vast amounts of knowledge and technique in the use of physical and psychological torture.

Despite the considerable skills of the communist interrogators, they were not always able to get the information, or confessions, they wanted. World War II saw an enormous amount of torture. The Nazis, who openly admired the superior interrogation skills of the Soviets, were more prone to use poorly trained investigators who went to physical torture quickly. The results were often dismal. Thousands of Russian and Allied victims took their secrets to their (usually unmarked) graves. The Soviets proved that, if you have the time (weeks or months) and skilled interrogators, you can break just about anyone. As for the few who resisted everything, a bullet in the back of the head was the usual result. The Soviet interrogators were not good losers.

One of the Soviet techniques that got more attention than success was the use of drugs to loosen tongues. The classic "truth serum" is sodium pentothal, which is basically an anesthetic. Much earlier, booze or drugs were used, with some success, to get people to loosen up and talk. Female spies have long used erotic behavior and sex to get men to spill secrets. Using anesthetics has the advantage of being administered in more controlled doses.

During the first few decades of the Cold War, there was something of a "drug race" between the United States and the Soviet Union to develop more effective drugs for use as interrogation tools. LSD, heroin and many exotic chemicals were used in the search for the perfect truth serum. There were no breakthroughs, but many people in the interrogation business still keep an eye on new developments in anesthesia.

And there are new things worth watching. Many new anesthetics don't knock you out as much as they put you in an altered state where you don't notice, or simply don't remember, the pain. Doctors often warn patients that they may want to use another form of anesthetic, because these new ones (using combinations of tranquilizers and sedatives in an IV drip) have a tendency to cause people to say things they'd rather keep secret. No one has admitted to using these new anesthetics for interrogation, probably considering success in this area as a valuable military secret. Or perhaps there is simply worry that such use will simply be outlawed for interrogation.

But when you have to get critical information in a hurry, like where a terrorist group has hidden a bomb (perhaps a small nuclear one) or biological weapon, most people will not quibble about the use of torture. In this case it is literally a matter of life or death. For this reason, most intelligence agencies stay current on torture techniques. Just in case."

-peace

[ March 04, 2003, 05:28 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Freud ]

[mhd]

so to be an effective torturer, you would have to study and emulate the soviets and the nazis...now that's patriotic

[mhd]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.and i would defend your right to not burn a flag. but the obvious must be stated: there is a huge difference between criticizing america and critcising americans. Bush and Ashcroft are about as un-american as you can get.

i cannot discount your nephews experience, but how would you feel if he were treated especially nice BECAUSE he was black and american.

btw, i respectfully defend my right to snap judgements, and his cousin, knee jerk reaction, as a right of citizenship

[ngeso]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.i think it is safe to say that a sentiment such as yours goes both ways in these troubled times.

Bold Soul, who determines which are the true issues? and what is so difficult about coming to terms with issues of one people being different from those of another people? please consider that most of the people on this site, that are not US-citizens, go to great length to understand and come to terms with your culture, your society, your history. i dare say that those here that have the ability and the interest to engage in discussion on a site such as this (a site that distinguishes itself in an exemplary collective portrayal of insight and intelligence) do so by choice and by conviction.

we come here to talk about house music, and to voice our love for the artform and our respect for those that create it. and we engage on "your" terms. if this is a problem - tell us to leave, and we'll leave.

sincerely, ngeso okolo.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by mhd:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.and i would defend your right to not burn a flag. but the obvious must be stated: there is a huge difference between criticizing america and critcising americans. Bush and Ashcroft are about as un-american as you can get.

i cannot discount your nephews experience, but how would you feel if he were treated especially nice BECAUSE he was black and american.

btw, i respectfully defend my right to snap judgements, and his cousin, knee jerk reaction, as a right of citizenship</font>[/QUOTE]Indeed. As I also agree with your rights. I brought up my issue with my nephew's experience to provide an ironic indication of matters of perception and judgement that exist in the current climate of world opinion.

As far as the difference between criticizing America and criticizing Americans, I agree with this as well. If those with strong malformed opinions abroad understood this, there would be more dialog and less cast judgements to contend with, IMO.

BTW - you're either asserting the antecedent or begging the question with your question about how I would feel if my nephew was treated well for being Black and American. Play fair, mark. ;)

[ March 04, 2003, 06:47 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by ngeso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.i think it is safe to say that a sentiment such as yours goes both ways in these troubled times.

Bold Soul, who determines which are the true issues? and what is so difficult about coming to terms with issues of one people being different from those of another people? please consider that most of the people on this site, that are not US-citizens, go to great length to understand and come to terms with your culture, your society, your history. i dare say that those here that have the ability and the interest to engage in discussion on a site such as this (a site that distinguishes itself in an exemplary collective portrayal of insight and intelligence) do so by choice and by conviction.

we come here to talk about house music, and to voice our love for the artform and our respect for those that create it. and we engage on "your" terms. if this is a problem - tell us to leave, and we'll leave.

sincerely, ngeso okolo.</font>[/QUOTE]Not to argue, ngeso, but there is a bit more than house music and a universal point of view discussed on the DHP. My original issue with this thread was that we are all operating on tainted propaganda masquerading as news and information. Judgements in either direction are, in this climate of misinformation, folly. This is my opinion.

To express one's opinion from an American POV is, to some "househeads" tantamount to agreeing with the actions of the current administration. People love to generalize - no matter which side of the ocean you live.

It isn't the right to the opinion that earns my distaste. Just the generalization and misinformation.

As far as true issues, there are many of them, and we are all colluded. Check out the R. Kelly album post for starters. There are more - real issues that effect real people. Honestly, I am much more worried about recent tax cuts and the erosion of domestic agenda than I am about a Iraqi despot's comeuppance. No one is posting anything angry about that, though.

Face it - your communities are poor, your educational systems are taking a powerful hit DAILY, your civil rights as citizens are being compromised on a daily basis but none of you are more safe. Your local politicians and activists are standing behind crooked club owners who share crooked money and CLASSISM has retaken the populace of most capitalistic democracies.

But you all want to crack wise about torture and bombs.

As I said - bunch of snotty hypocrites, none of which have a pot to piss in but want to debate what they read in political rags. Shameful.

[ March 04, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[Bold Soul]

...

[ March 04, 2003, 06:43 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[konbit]

Does nobody see the irony in so-called patriots supporting something that goes against every idea this country was built on. I recommend going back and re-reading your Enlightenment Era literature...with an emphasis on human and natural rights.

[Dr. Freud]

Originally posted by mhd:
so to be an effective torturer, you would have to study and emulate the soviets and the nazis...now that's patrioticWhat does patriotism have to do with torture?

[ngeso]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ngeso:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Perception is onerous, however there is no shortage of perceptory comments regarding current events.

As an individual, it is important for me to zero in on those issues that effect self first, community second and nation third. To make snap judgements based on the propaganda that masquerades as pro or anti US action is, in my opinion, irresponsible and undercuts true issues that should be addressed.

I have learned much about the regard many from other nations have toward US citizens and I am not encouraged to enjoin in relationships abroad because of it. Enjoying the freedoms of US citizenry doesn't make you an enemy of civil liberties. I, for one, have had enough of the stone-slinging on the DHP toward Americans. I will not burn a flag to be your friend.

Take it with a grain of salt.i think it is safe to say that a sentiment such as yours goes both ways in these troubled times.

Bold Soul, who determines which are the true issues? and what is so difficult about coming to terms with issues of one people being different from those of another people? please consider that most of the people on this site, that are not US-citizens, go to great length to understand and come to terms with your culture, your society, your history. i dare say that those here that have the ability and the interest to engage in discussion on a site such as this (a site that distinguishes itself in an exemplary collective portrayal of insight and intelligence) do so by choice and by conviction.

we come here to talk about house music, and to voice our love for the artform and our respect for those that create it. and we engage on "your" terms. if this is a problem - tell us to leave, and we'll leave.

sincerely, ngeso okolo.</font>[/QUOTE]Not to argue, ngeso, but there is a bit more than house music and a universal point of view discussed on the DHP. My original issue with this thread was that we are all operating on tainted propaganda masquerading as news and information. Judgements in either direction are, in this climate of misinformation, folly. This is my opinion.

To express one's opinion from an American POV is, to some "househeads" tantamount to agreeing with the actions of the current administration. People love to generalize - no matter which side of the ocean you live.

It isn't the right to the opinion that earns my distaste. Just the generalization and misinformation.</font>[/QUOTE]seen.

[mhd]

Originally posted by Dr. Freud:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
so to be an effective torturer, you would have to study and emulate the soviets and the nazis...now that's patrioticWhat does patriotism have to do with torture?</font>[/QUOTE]good question, what does sarcasm have to do with political commentary? according to some of the patriots on this page patriotism and torture go hand in hand

[Querck]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
JUSTICE is simply the act of putting things in their proper place.WOW, I have read many philosophers' views about justice, in fact, read an entire book on it by John Rawls, thought about it myself for years, and now, thanks to the DHP, I know what justice is!!!

Of course, I am only kidding. Trying to create a universal definition of justice is like trying to proclaim one dj as the greatest dj of all time.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by dannyboy:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
JUSTICE is simply the act of putting things in their proper place.WOW, I have read many philosophers' views about justice, in fact, read an entire book on it by John Rawls, thought about it myself for years, and now, thanks to the DHP, I know what justice is!!!

Of course, I am only kidding. Trying to create a universal definition of justice is like trying to proclaim one dj as the greatest dj of all time.</font>[/QUOTE]Ah - five pages of pseudo-philosophy and you choose to pick apart the minutae of mine. :rolleyes:

I'm always game for a good debate.

[ March 04, 2003, 08:33 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[JamesNelson]

I guess we will do what we have to do to get more inside information

[martino]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
No one knows anything. Period. [snip]I'm a skeptic on ALL levels. And I think I'm responsible enough to reserve judgement in cases where I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.
Thats the most important thing said in this whole thread.
which goes back to my post.
We dont really know that this is the guy is who the FBI and company say he is (given the authorities track record)Which is why i personally cant support torture being made legal. Because by default, i'm against torture. And unless i know for sure that torturing him will lead to less violence on this planet, then i'll be against it. And i dont know that.
That in addition to the fact that Israeli's have admitted that torture has not proven to be beneficial in a majority of cases based on their experience. I personally think the supporters of torture are hiding behind motives of revenge, not this whole ticking bomb nonsense.

"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
--- Mark Twain

or:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt

[ March 05, 2003, 01:21 AM: Message edited by: martino ]

[mdpm99]

very good martino!

graemlins/cool_shades.gif

d

[f0reverneverm0re]

Originally posted by Recondo:
You people make me f u c k i n g sick. I am sitting here actually about to vomit from reading your f u c k i n g bulls h i t.

57% say no torture? F U C K you and your high f u c k i n g horse, b i t c h e s!!!

I can understand the peace movement, they don't want a war-that is really understandable and I can even agree with some of their ideas. But whether or not we torture the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks to get information from him? S h i t, we should f u c k i n g torture him for fun. We should f u c k i n g put him in Times Square for 2004 New Years and light him up instead of the ball! There is NO f u c k i n g debate over this you morons...the damage from 9/11 has been felt ten-fold. Just listen to the sorry, broke ass m o t h e r f u c k e r s on this board alone and you know what's up. Torture him, cook him and eat him, kill him, dis-member ande dis-embowel him for all I care. You are the f u c k i n g heartless ones who have forgotten the day the towers fell and that is why you will never be able to feel like real Americans for the rest of your sorry lives.

I feel sick because of you, absolutely sick you mangy, flea-bitten mongrols.:D

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by martino:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
No one knows anything. Period. [snip]I'm a skeptic on ALL levels. And I think I'm responsible enough to reserve judgement in cases where I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING.
Thats the most important thing said in this whole thread.
which goes back to my post.
We dont really know that this is the guy is who the FBI and company say he is (given the authorities track record)Which is why i personally cant support torture being made legal. Because by default, i'm against torture. And unless i know for sure that torturing him will lead to less violence on this planet, then i'll be against it. And i dont know that.
That in addition to the fact that Israeli's have admitted that torture has not proven to be beneficial in a majority of cases based on their experience. I personally think the supporters of torture are hiding behind motives of revenge, not this whole ticking bomb nonsense.

"Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception."
--- Mark Twain

or:

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt</font>[/QUOTE]Again - another fallacy of logic. Please don't whittle the context of my words away in order to prove your point. The fallacy you committed by selectively quoting me out of context is called

IRREVALENT CONCLUSION : an argument in defense of one conclusion instead proves a different conclusion.

Feel free to check out http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm for a listing of rhetorical fallacies that destroy logical and earnest debate.

My views still stand - it behooves everyone who is interested in current world affairs to research diligently and determine a GENUINE view (and not one espoused by a DJ you admire) prior to influencing those among us who may be impressionable to make malformed judgements about things out of our control.

[ March 05, 2003, 02:06 AM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Only as laughable as your lack of a sense of irony. :rolleyes: Please tell me than my Yankee sense of prose did not go over your head.

Hypocrites all. Each nation on this earth has enjoyed a period of dominance. The USA is now enjoying its time on top. Life goes on.Well, we all know how well irony comes across on message boards ...

Anyway, attempting to slice through your dense layers of irony and brilliant wordplay, I believe that your point is that there're a lot of things going on closer to home that demand our attention and towards which all the blablabla's here could actually make a difference. Sure. But are you really saying that I should just leave everything else to our wise leaders, and that I couldn't possibly even have a valid opinion on such things?!

Sure, it's the USA's time on top, but wasn't the beauty of it supposed to be that the US government is to some degree accountable to its informed citizenry (wild optimism ...)?

[andrea]

No, you shouldn't torture him, but maybe you can pinch him whenever you want.

[DJ76]

About two weeks ago, an Albanian man was arrested by KFOR, put on a plane, transferred to the UN War crimes tribunal and appeared initially in front of Judge Liu Daqun. During the inital appearance, he stated he was not the person they were after. Prosecution stood there speechless.

As the investigation went on for the following days, it appeared that the man they had arrested was a totally innocent man, who had merely an appartment, a wife, a little piece of land, a cow.

The man that the war crimes tribunal was after has actually passed away 3 years ago.

In the mean time, the poor Albanian that was wrongfully arrested and that had never set foot outside Kosovo, let alone ever on a plane, is back in his country. He had not worked since 1989 due to the conditions in the balkans. Two weeks before his arrest, he had found a job as a security guard, started the training and now, with his name in the papers pictured as a criminal, we can only hope he gets his job back.

Moral of the story: innocent til proven guilty. We don't know shit about the man that was arrested. Nuf said.

[MC]

Sorry the hear about that the Albanian man, but this is totally different, although I see your point. The US has seized all this belongings (LapTop, PC, Cell phone, and other documents). We got our GUY! Someone that was captured due to mistaken identity would be talking his ass off to get out of that jam, and this Al QAIDA fool isn't even cooperating.

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Only as laughable as your lack of a sense of irony. :rolleyes: Please tell me than my Yankee sense of prose did not go over your head.

Hypocrites all. Each nation on this earth has enjoyed a period of dominance. The USA is now enjoying its time on top. Life goes on.Well, we all know how well irony comes across on message boards ...

Anyway, attempting to slice through your dense layers of irony and brilliant wordplay, I believe that your point is that there're a lot of things going on closer to home that demand our attention and towards which all the blablabla's here could actually make a difference. Sure. But are you really saying that I should just leave everything else to our wise leaders, and that I couldn't possibly even have a valid opinion on such things?!

Sure, it's the USA's time on top, but wasn't the beauty of it supposed to be that the US government is to some degree accountable to its informed citizenry (wild optimism ...)?</font>[/QUOTE]Man, if you can't get what I'm saying after six pages, you either wish to remain confused or intend to spread confusion.

Either way, I'm offended by your "biting" remarks. It amazes me that I can be ostracized by the "peace" crowd (which is really the Anti-US crowd) for deciding to remain NEUTRAL. You know...NEUTRAL, like Switzerland...

Now when is GMan going to provide a middle finger smilie?

[martino]

[/qb][/QUOTE]Again - another fallacy of logic. Please don't whittle the context of my words away in order to prove your point. The fallacy you committed by selectively quoting me out of context is called

IRREVALENT CONCLUSION : an argument in defense of one conclusion instead proves a different conclusion.

Feel free to check out http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm for a listing of rhetorical fallacies that destroy logical and earnest debate.

My views still stand - it behooves everyone who is interested in current world affairs to research diligently and determine a GENUINE view (and not one espoused by a DJ you admire) prior to influencing those among us who may be impressionable to make malformed judgements about things out of our control.[/QB][/QUOTE]

thanks for the link bold. first off, i was _Partially_ quoting you out of context as those sentences fit into my opinion on the subject at hand. I'm not interested in the rest of the statement about apathy of peaceniks. But more importantly that whole skeptical view of peaceniks has nothing to do with this thread. this thread is about whether we feel torture is useful in this situation. Not whether peaceniks are hypocrits.
And i'm not sure if i understood you correctly, but are you assuming that those of us that have opinions on these matters have these opinions because there's some dj we're trying to impress? and that we dont research this stuff or do anything based on our beliefs on our own time? That may be true in many cases, but i wouldn't be going there.
Appeal to Popularity,Changing the Subject/attacking the person ;)

Is your logic basically saying that if you dont know shit, then dont have an opinion on it? I agree with that to a certain point. Sorry for not being a robot, but i aint for torture because i wouldnt want to be tortured especially if i was innocent. Thats why, by default, i'm against it. And in this case, i dont know who this guy is, cause as you state, and i quoted: everybody's holding info (and the media can't be overly trusted these days either).

In other words, my conditioned "morality" in addition to the fact that we dont know shit, plus there is info made available by the Israeli's where they had to curb their legal torture laws because it didnt prove to be a beneficial thing, in their EXPERIENCE with it-Makes me not support torture. I sure hope David Morales reads this... graemlins/remybussi.gif

I always enjoy reading your posts as they always make me think differently. I can't help noticing that you always participate in threads where you'll automatically dismiss what ppl say cause this isn't the forum, nor are we qualified for these subjects (and even if we are qualified, we are powerless in regards to the subject). It's just an observation. I think you have some important things to say, and whether i always understand where youre coming from fully or not, I certainly dont think what you say is powerless, even if words aren't as strong as actions.

[ March 05, 2003, 12:32 PM: Message edited by: martino ]

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by martino:
Again - another fallacy of logic. Please don't whittle the context of my words away in order to prove your point. The fallacy you committed by selectively quoting me out of context is called

IRREVALENT CONCLUSION : an argument in defense of one conclusion instead proves a different conclusion.

Feel free to check out http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm for a listing of rhetorical fallacies that destroy logical and earnest debate.

My views still stand - it behooves everyone who is interested in current world affairs to research diligently and determine a GENUINE view (and not one espoused by a DJ you admire) prior to influencing those among us who may be impressionable to make malformed judgements about things out of our control.
thanks for the link bold. first off, i was _Partially_ quoting you out of context as those sentences fit into my opinion on the subject at hand. I'm not interested in the rest of the statement about apathy of peaceniks. But more importantly that whole skeptical view of peaceniks has nothing to do with this thread. this thread is about whether we feel torture is useful in this situation. Not whether peaceniks are hypocrits.
And i'm not sure if i understood you correctly, but are you assuming that those of us that have opinions on these matters have these opinions because there's some dj we're trying to impress? and that we dont research this stuff or do anything based on our beliefs on our own time? That may be true in many cases, but i wouldn't be going there.
Appeal to Popularity,Changing the Subject/attacking the person ;)

Is your logic basically saying that if you dont know shit, then dont have an opinion on it? I agree with that to a certain point. Sorry for not being a robot, but i aint for torture because i wouldnt want to be tortured especially if i was innocent. Thats why, by default, i'm against it. And in this case, i dont know who this guy is, cause as you state, and i quoted: everybody's holding info (and the media can't be overly trusted these days either).

In other words, my conditioned "morality" in addition to the fact that we dont know shit, plus there is info made available by the Israeli's where they had to curb their legal torture laws because it didnt prove to be a beneficial thing, in their EXPERIENCE with it-Makes me not support torture. I sure hope David Morales reads this... graemlins/remybussi.gif

I always enjoy reading your posts as they always make me think differently. I can't help noticing that you always participate in threads where you'll automatically dismiss what ppl say cause this isn't the forum, nor are we qualified for these subjects (and even if we are qualified, we are powerless in regards to the subject). It's just an observation. I think you have some important things to say, and whether i always understand where youre coming from fully or not, I certainly dont think what you say is powerless, even if words aren't as strong as actions.Gotcha. That makes the second time you've quoted me out of context. :rolleyes:

And as far as your "even if words aren't as strong as actions" comment - tell me what actions are available to any of us?

Superlatives. :rolleyes: I'm done. You all can continue to blow up the world with "kindness". graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[ March 05, 2003, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Bold Soul ]

[D J 1 3 8]

Originally posted by DJ 138:


"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Benjamin FranklinI think this bears repeating.

[Chris Conrad]

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DJ30Df01.html

[DJ76]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by der geile hund:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Only as laughable as your lack of a sense of irony. :rolleyes: Please tell me than my Yankee sense of prose did not go over your head.

Hypocrites all. Each nation on this earth has enjoyed a period of dominance. The USA is now enjoying its time on top. Life goes on.Well, we all know how well irony comes across on message boards ...

Anyway, attempting to slice through your dense layers of irony and brilliant wordplay, I believe that your point is that there're a lot of things going on closer to home that demand our attention and towards which all the blablabla's here could actually make a difference. Sure. But are you really saying that I should just leave everything else to our wise leaders, and that I couldn't possibly even have a valid opinion on such things?!

Sure, it's the USA's time on top, but wasn't the beauty of it supposed to be that the US government is to some degree accountable to its informed citizenry (wild optimism ...)?</font>[/QUOTE]Man, if you can't get what I'm saying after six pages, you either wish to remain confused or intend to spread confusion.

Either way, I'm offended by your "biting" remarks. It amazes me that I can be ostracized by the "peace" crowd (which is really the Anti-US crowd) for deciding to remain NEUTRAL. You know...NEUTRAL, like Switzerland...

Now when is GMan going to provide a middle finger smilie?</font>[/QUOTE]haha. I get your point generally and I respect it. I just wanted to point out that Switzerland wasn't and isn't that neutral. Besides, can anyone really be neutral? Even judges cannot claim that and i am very well placed to say that as I see this on the daily.

[der geile hund]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
Man, if you can't get what I'm saying after six pages, you either wish to remain confused or intend to spread confusion.

Either way, I'm offended by your "biting" remarks. It amazes me that I can be ostracized by the "peace" crowd (which is really the Anti-US crowd) for deciding to remain NEUTRAL. You know...NEUTRAL, like Switzerland...

Now when is GMan going to provide a middle finger smilie?Aw man, no middle finger, please. Thank you for summarizing your position. I tend to skim long threads like this - who doesn't?

I think the "peace" crowd can be better summarized as the scared of the US crowd - Americans might be surprised how much and how deeply people here like the US, but they were scared shitless in the 80s that a Ronald Reagan they didn't understand was going to get them blown up and are now having flashbacks.

Re: neutrality, there's enough people arguing for war that it doesn't hurt to err on the side of the minority.

[martino]

Originally posted by Bold Soul:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by martino:
Again - another fallacy of logic. Please don't whittle the context of my words away in order to prove your point. The fallacy you committed by selectively quoting me out of context is called

IRREVALENT CONCLUSION : an argument in defense of one conclusion instead proves a different conclusion.

Feel free to check out http://www.datanation.com/fallacies/index.htm for a listing of rhetorical fallacies that destroy logical and earnest debate.

My views still stand - it behooves everyone who is interested in current world affairs to research diligently and determine a GENUINE view (and not one espoused by a DJ you admire) prior to influencing those among us who may be impressionable to make malformed judgements about things out of our control.
thanks for the link bold. first off, i was _Partially_ quoting you out of context as those sentences fit into my opinion on the subject at hand. I'm not interested in the rest of the statement about apathy of peaceniks. But more importantly that whole skeptical view of peaceniks has nothing to do with this thread. this thread is about whether we feel torture is useful in this situation. Not whether peaceniks are hypocrits.
And i'm not sure if i understood you correctly, but are you assuming that those of us that have opinions on these matters have these opinions because there's some dj we're trying to impress? and that we dont research this stuff or do anything based on our beliefs on our own time? That may be true in many cases, but i wouldn't be going there.
Appeal to Popularity,Changing the Subject/attacking the person ;)

Is your logic basically saying that if you dont know shit, then dont have an opinion on it? I agree with that to a certain point. Sorry for not being a robot, but i aint for torture because i wouldnt want to be tortured especially if i was innocent. Thats why, by default, i'm against it. And in this case, i dont know who this guy is, cause as you state, and i quoted: everybody's holding info (and the media can't be overly trusted these days either).

In other words, my conditioned "morality" in addition to the fact that we dont know shit, plus there is info made available by the Israeli's where they had to curb their legal torture laws because it didnt prove to be a beneficial thing, in their EXPERIENCE with it-Makes me not support torture. I sure hope David Morales reads this... graemlins/remybussi.gif

I always enjoy reading your posts as they always make me think differently. I can't help noticing that you always participate in threads where you'll automatically dismiss what ppl say cause this isn't the forum, nor are we qualified for these subjects (and even if we are qualified, we are powerless in regards to the subject). It's just an observation. I think you have some important things to say, and whether i always understand where youre coming from fully or not, I certainly dont think what you say is powerless, even if words aren't as strong as actions.Gotcha. That makes the second time you've quoted me out of context. :rolleyes:

And as far as your "even if words aren't as strong as actions" comment - tell me what actions are available to any of us?

Superlatives. :rolleyes: I'm done. You all can continue to blow up the world with "kindness". graemlins/jpshakehead.gif </font>[/QUOTE]well i dont know if youre gonna read this, or care about it but whatever: i didnt see where i quoted you a second time (unless youre referring to the same quote as before).

As far as "actions" - do you not feel that America got out of vietnam at least partially due to the fact that american citizens started opposing the vietnam war left right and center and in many different ways? How about women's right to vote? etc.

I never came into this thread to preach, just to offer an opinion which is what was asked for in the subject header. And i offered the info about one of the only countries that tackled the subject of torture legislation head-on: israel.
Which would make sense to look into if youre interested in the subject of state sanctioned torture. :eek: (you'll find pro and con points there too)
So i quoted you out of context, it doesnt take anything away from my view of, or israel's experience with torture legistlation.