R Kelly’s new album

[Bill Blake]

Is #1 this week on billboard.

[sammyrock]

Get the Osmonds Lp Jamie it came in second...lol :D

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Is #1 this week on billboard.Its a good album.

[DJ Rated M]

good album from Chester the Molester.....

graemlins/puke.gif

[Wild i]

Jamie,
Thought about you yesterday and the whole "du rag" incident of a while back. Packaging seen in a bodega window: Two black guys in black suits with du rags on their heads standing next to each other. Above them in silve block 3-D letters "MID"; below that "Men In Du Rags." An obvious rip-off of Men In Black.

I cracked up!

Thought about you for the rest of the day... graemlins/rofl.gif

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Wild i:
Jamie,
Thought about you yesterday and the whole "du rag" incident of a while back. Packaging seen in a bodega window: Two black guys in black suits with du rags on their heads standing next to each other. Above them in silve block 3-D letters "MID"; below that "Men In Du Rags." An obvious rip-off of Men In Black.

I cracked up!

Thought about you for the rest of the day... graemlins/rofl.gif I crack up everytime I see MnM wearing one myself.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jamie Lennox:
Is #1 this week on billboard.Its a good album.</font>[/QUOTE]Artist of the day?

[formerly known as kenspank]

i'm not surprised. r kelly had the #1 steppers song in the world when i was in chicago a couple months ago. people love that dude.

[Koffy Brown]

I've been trying to get dialogue going on about this cd for the last 2 weeks...it's an awesome cd...some good old fashion music...I love it...

People need to give R. Kelly a break...

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
I've been trying to get dialogue going on about this cd for the last 2 weeks...it's an awesome cd...some good old fashion music...I love it...

People need to give R. Kelly a break...The album is good and should be bought, as far as giving him a break...Did you see the videos......

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
I've been trying to get dialogue going on about this cd for the last 2 weeks...it's an awesome cd...some good old fashion music...I love it...

People need to give R. Kelly a break...The album is good and should be bought, as far as giving him a break...Did you see the videos......</font>[/QUOTE]Yes I did. I'm not validating what R. Kelly did, and I think that if he preys on young girls, he has a problem and should seek help. But she was consenting, that doesn't make it right but not wrong either. I know some 14 and 15 year old girls who are truly out there.

[formerly known as kenspank]

you've got a point. i saw the tapes too...on kazaa.com. i love kazaa.

anyway, recently there was a story on 48 hrs or something about this rich white dude who while having consensual sex with the women he was dating also sometimes drugged all these women he was dating and had sex with them while they were unconscious. he taped the sex acts.

the case eventually went to trial and he was found guilt for 76 counts of rape. however, the dude jumped bail and fled the country, so he's not serving any time. his victims are pissed off cuz they're not getting the justice they deserve. his mom just hopes he takes care of himself while on the run.

having sex with someone while they're unconscious seems a bit heinous. the women were upset and were unwilling participants.

however, when someone is a willing participant in a sex act, minor or not, i'm having trouble figuring out where the crime is especially if no harm has been done and all parties seem to look like they are enjoying themselves.

i've known plenty of underage women who have had sex with adult males. they seem fine. they really enjoyed themselves at the time. i knew this one girl who had sex with the janitor at her high school. in knew this other girl who had sex with this adult male who was in and out jail and had children by that dude. the list goes on and on. and on top of that plenty of junior high and high school kids have sex with each other and make sex tapes and very few instances are prosecuted.

i figure dispite the laws of the land people will follow the law of their own heart first. people will do what pleases them first no matter how hard our officials attempt to prevent us from doing what gives us pleasure.

i figure if no harm is done, why waste the tax payers' money. i know plenty of people who jump at the chance to have sex with superstars. this ain't new. male superstars bring women backstage to have sex. some female stars bring men and women backstage to have sex. this is the case for a british female band. in either case, i'm sure they're not checking any ids.

i mean we don't allow minors to engage in contractual agreements, but we do allow them to drive cars and shit and that's pretty dangerous. somehow they can drive a car, but they can't have control of their own body parts what they do with those body parts.

anyway, it must not be that big of a deal. the girls in the videos don't seem to be on tv crying the blues. people still buy r. kelly records. i think his lyrics speak to where alot of people are at. if noone is complaining other than the prosecutors, i don't think they should waste the tax payers' money on this.

[Bill Blake]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
I've been trying to get dialogue going on about this cd for the last 2 weeks...it's an awesome cd...some good old fashion music...I love it...

People need to give R. Kelly a break...The album is good and should be bought, as far as giving him a break...Did you see the videos......</font>[/QUOTE]Yes I did. I'm not validating what R. Kelly did, and I think that if he preys on young girls, he has a problem and should seek help. But she was consenting, that doesn't make it right but not wrong either. I know some 14 and 15 year old girls who are truly out there.</font>[/QUOTE]Consent is not a legal accepted attribute in a great amount of decisions for individuals that are under the age of 18 and for good reason.

[ March 04, 2003, 11:11 AM: Message edited by: Jamie Lennox ]

[fred da warrior]

This thread is starting to be disturbing. I can't believe the nonchalantance about this VERY SERIOUS ISSUE.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
I've been trying to get dialogue going on about this cd for the last 2 weeks...it's an awesome cd...some good old fashion music...I love it...

People need to give R. Kelly a break...The album is good and should be bought, as far as giving him a break...Did you see the videos......</font>[/QUOTE]Yes I did. I'm not validating what R. Kelly did, and I think that if he preys on young girls, he has a problem and should seek help. But she was consenting, that doesn't make it right but not wrong either. I know some 14 and 15 year old girls who are truly out there.</font>[/QUOTE]At that age the law says that you are impressionable and can't know enough to be able to give consent. Aside from that he is urinating on her and makes her urinate on herself...This guy is sick, but he is a great composer.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by kenspank:
you've got a point. i saw the tapes too...on kazaa.com. i love kazaa.

anyway, recently there was a story on 48 hrs or something about this rich white dude who while having consensual sex with the women he was dating also sometimes drugged all these women he was dating and had sex with them while they were unconscious. he taped the sex acts.

the case eventually went to trial and he was found guilt for 76 counts of rape. however, the dude jumped bail and fled the country, so he's not serving any time. his victims are pissed off cuz they're not getting the justice they deserve. his mom just hopes he takes care of himself while on the run.

having sex with someone while they're unconscious seems a bit heinous. the women were upset and were unwilling participants.

however, when someone is a willing participant in a sex act, minor or not, i'm having trouble figuring out where the crime is especially if no harm has been done and all parties seem to look like they are enjoying themselves.

i've known plenty of underage women who have had sex with adult males. they seem fine. they really enjoyed themselves at the time. i knew this one girl who had sex with the janitor at her high school. in knew this other girl who had sex with this adult male who was in and out jail and had children by that dude. the list goes on and on. and on top of that plenty of junior high and high school kids have sex with each other and make sex tapes and very few instances are prosecuted.

i figure dispite the laws of the land people will follow the law of their own heart first. people will do what pleases them first no matter how hard our officials attempt to prevent us from doing what gives us pleasure.

i figure if no harm is done, why waste the tax payers' money. i know plenty of people who jump at the chance to have sex with superstars. this ain't new. male superstars bring women backstage to have sex. some female stars bring men and women backstage to have sex. this is the case for a british female band. in either case, i'm sure they're not checking any ids.

i mean we don't allow minors to engage in contractual agreements, but we do allow them to drive cars and shit and that's pretty dangerous. somehow they can drive a car, but they can't have control of their own body parts what they do with those body parts.

anyway, it must not be that big of a deal. the girls in the videos don't seem to be on tv crying the blues. people still buy r. kelly records. i think his lyrics speak to where alot of people are at. if noone is complaining other than the prosecutors, i don't think they should waste the tax payers' money on this.Assuming you have a daughter, you wouldnt mind when she turns 13, having sex with a 35 year old man.

[JMJ]

Originally posted by fred:
This thread is starting to be disturbing. I can't believe the nonchalantance about this VERY SERIOUS ISSUE.Agreed. Consent??? If two girls, one age 6, and the other 14, "CONSENT" to have sex with adult, is it OK?? No harm, no foul?? How about a 3 year old?? If she says OK, is it?? May seem a little far-fetched, but the law is the law. Just because there's grass on the infield, it DOESN"T mean it's OK to play ball. I'll let some of you get back to rationalizing illegal sex acts now......JMJ mad1.gif

[formerly known as kenspank]

lots of people people get off on being urinated on and urinating on others. i though it was a new thing, but then i watched jojo dancer (with richard pryor) and heard mention of the act in the movie. i deduced peeing on each other has been around for a while. recently i learned that people also shit on each other and also eat each other shit.

i'm not prepared to say that a group of dead white men know best about the impressionability of people under the age of 18 and if the age of 18 is some grand median age when people suddenly come to their senses.

if the women in the videos aren't complaining, i figure what's the big deal.

[HML]

Originally posted by DJ Rated M:
good album from Chester the Molester.....

graemlins/puke.gif Brrr!! That was COLD Rated! ;) And whatchu doin' readin' HUSTLER magazine!! graemlins/nono.gif graemlins/cool_shades.gif :D

-HML

[GROOVE VICTIM]

I guess I'll rent Pee Wee's Big Adventure over the weekend.

Peace

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by kenspank:
lots of people people get off on being urinated on and urinating on others. i though it was a new thing, but then i watched jojo dancer (with richard pryor) and heard mention of the act in the movie. i deduced peeing on each other has been around for a while. recently i learned that people also shit on each other and also eat each other shit.

i'm not prepared to say that a group of dead white men know best about the impressionability of people under the age of 18 and if the age of 18 is some grand median age when people suddenly come to their senses.

if the women in the videos aren't complaining, i figure what's the big deal.Amazing....You guys are actually defending a man in his 30 having sex and urinating on a minor. SIGH

[JMJ]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
I've been trying to get dialogue going on about this cd for the last 2 weeks...it's an awesome cd...some good old fashion music...I love it...

People need to give R. Kelly a break...The album is good and should be bought, as far as giving him a break...Did you see the videos......</font>[/QUOTE]Yes I did. I'm not validating what R. Kelly did, and I think that if he preys on young girls, he has a problem and should seek help. But she was consenting, that doesn't make it right but not wrong either. I know some 14 and 15 year old girls who are truly out there.</font>[/QUOTE]If you had an underage daughter, would it be OK for R Kelly to phuck her, with her consent of course?? He does have a good album out, you know.... Give him a break after he phucks your daughter and pisses on her. You know how young girls can be. Boy, he sure can sing, can't he?? TAKE THE PHUCKING BLINDERS OFF!!!!!......JMJ graemlins/cussing.gif

[GROOVE VICTIM]

You guys are supporting the album, but not him right?

You guys are condoning a 30 year old man having sex with an underaged girl, but you support the album right?

Last year a bunch of us demonized this man, but we support his album right?

Anyone here have any crack?

Peace

[Wild i]

Originally posted by kenspank:
you've got a point. i saw the tapes too...on kazaa.com. i love kazaa.

anyway, recently there was a story on 48 hrs or something about this rich white dude who while having consensual sex with the women he was dating also sometimes drugged all these women he was dating and had sex with them while they were unconscious. he taped the sex acts.

the case eventually went to trial and he was found guilt for 76 counts of rape. however, the dude jumped bail and fled the country, so he's not serving any time. his victims are pissed off cuz they're not getting the justice they deserve. his mom just hopes he takes care of himself while on the run.

having sex with someone while they're unconscious seems a bit heinous. the women were upset and were unwilling participants.

however, when someone is a willing participant in a sex act, minor or not, i'm having trouble figuring out where the crime is especially if no harm has been done and all parties seem to look like they are enjoying themselves.

i've known plenty of underage women who have had sex with adult males. they seem fine. they really enjoyed themselves at the time. i knew this one girl who had sex with the janitor at her high school. in knew this other girl who had sex with this adult male who was in and out jail and had children by that dude. the list goes on and on. and on top of that plenty of junior high and high school kids have sex with each other and make sex tapes and very few instances are prosecuted.

i figure dispite the laws of the land people will follow the law of their own heart first. people will do what pleases them first no matter how hard our officials attempt to prevent us from doing what gives us pleasure.

i figure if no harm is done, why waste the tax payers' money. i know plenty of people who jump at the chance to have sex with superstars. this ain't new. male superstars bring women backstage to have sex. some female stars bring men and women backstage to have sex. this is the case for a british female band. in either case, i'm sure they're not checking any ids.

i mean we don't allow minors to engage in contractual agreements, but we do allow them to drive cars and shit and that's pretty dangerous. somehow they can drive a car, but they can't have control of their own body parts what they do with those body parts.

anyway, it must not be that big of a deal. the girls in the videos don't seem to be on tv crying the blues. people still buy r. kelly records. i think his lyrics speak to where alot of people are at. if noone is complaining other than the prosecutors, i don't think they should waste the tax payers' money on this.When I was about 11 or 12 years old, a retired boxer moved on to our block. He always had lots of kids (boys and girls) at his house for one reason or another. Usually he paid them to do little odd jobs like mop or strip the floor or something like that. I was no different. He seemed like a nice guy and it was nice to have a few sheckles in my pocket. (It wasn't much. Coupla dollars maybe, but this was like 1968 and I was 12. I took that few dollars to the corner store several times a day.)

One day this man rubbed up against me in the most uncomfortable manner. He didn't touch me with his hands or anything, he just boxed me into a small space and seditiously rubbed his boner on my ass. It made me feel uncomfortable, as I said, but I thought it was my imagination or I was being hyper sensitive because no one else ever had a complaint about him and everyone kept going to his house. I stayed away for about 2 weeks, then he asked me to help him with his basement floor. When I got there, he wanted me to scrob the floor on my hands and knees. Of course to show me this, he also had to get on his hands and knees behind me to demonstrate how to scrub.

That was the last time I went to his house, but I felt dirty behind that for years, first because it happened and second because I was fool enough to go back a second time. I'm almost in tears just thinking about it. The self doubt that this, and other similar experiences caused leaves deep scars.

A 14-16 year old girl is ill-equipped to make such decisions. In fact, so is a 14-16 boy, but they are pressured to have sex young to "prove their manhood." One friend of mind told me he "lost his virginity" when he was 9 years old with a 16 year old girl. He was shocked when I told him he'd been raped. The thought had never even occurred to him. However, reverse the genders and...

Last week we discussed whether America is to inhibited about sex. I think we are often too cavalier, especially about sex with minors.

[Wild i]

Originally posted by kenspank:
if the women in the videos aren't complaining, i figure what's the big deal.The big deal is they're not women, they're young girls.

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Yep and the girl in that video probably had the same expression you had. To me it didnt look like she wanted to be there.

[JMJ]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
You guys are supporting the album, but not him right?

You guys are condoning a 30 year old man having sex with an underaged girl, but you support the album right?

Last year a bunch of us demonized this man, but we support his album right?

Anyone here have any crack?

PeaceNope. Phuck him AND his album. Is it OK to phuck a dog if it's YOUR dog and he or she seems to enjoy it?? How about newborns or toddlers?? If they smile at you, does that give you the green light?? UNPHUCKING BELIEVABLE!!!!!! Sorry to steal your thunder, Groove. This shit is disturbing......JMJ mad1.gif

[Jamie 3:26]

Look,R.Kelly sucks.I never really dug him.Dude has major support here in Chicago.I think it is blind support as usual per the Black Comunity,just like voting Democratic,cause pastor said so.

Let the freak be.He will get his regardless.

I do not condone grown ass men preying on young women.There may be some outrage over this,but think back,how many of ya'll remember the girls in school getting picked up in cars by older dudes.They usually were the fine,more mature looking girls.There was not a very big age difference,but these guys were well out of high-school years.

The point I am making is that this and other issues have been accepted by folks for far too long.I know guys who prey on younger girls for the control issue.That just means they are weak and can not handle a real woman.Give me a grown women,mentally mature and aware and I am happy.

For those who think it's cool to pry on young ones,have children or wait til someone does it to your sister.You will feel totally different.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Originally posted by JMJ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
You guys are supporting the album, but not him right?

You guys are condoning a 30 year old man having sex with an underaged girl, but you support the album right?

Last year a bunch of us demonized this man, but we support his album right?

Anyone here have any crack?

PeaceNope. Phuck him AND his album. Is it OK to phuck a dog if it's YOUR dog and he or she seems to enjoy it?? How about newborns or toddlers?? If they smile at you, does that give you the green light?? UNPHUCKING BELIEVABLE!!!!!! Sorry to steal your thunder, Groove. This shit is disturbing......JMJ mad1.gif </font>[/QUOTE]No, it's OK JMJ, my remarks were a result of yours. I just can't see myself buying this album and watchin my son knodding his head back and forth to the music knowing what he has done in the past. Whether it's good music or not, this shit won't hit my stereo.

Peace

[Koffy Brown]

I hear yall. In this particular case, and we have to talk about this individual case, the girl was going to have sex rather or not it was R. kelly. There is a big difference between 6yrs old and 14 year old girls. Once again I'm not validating his actions..

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
I hear yall. In this particular case, and we have to talk about this individual case, the girl was going to have sex rather or not it was R. kelly. There is a big difference between 6yrs old and 14 year old girls. Once again I'm not validating his actions..How do you know that.

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by DJ Timmy Richardson:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
I hear yall. In this particular case, and we have to talk about this individual case, the girl was going to have sex rather or not it was R. kelly. There is a big difference between 6yrs old and 14 year old girls. Once again I'm not validating his actions..How do you know that.</font>[/QUOTE]because I'm a grown ass woman...who has gone from 6 to 14 to 21 to 32....

[Koffy Brown]

also, shouldn't her parents be held responsible...R.Kelly and the parents...

[formerly known as kenspank]

society may be appauled by a man phucking a young woman, but is it because we automatically think a woman is a victim of a man's desires? do we acknowledge that women have sexual desires and agendas of their own? are we equally as appauled when an older woman phucks a teenage boy?

most of the time, not. so as fathers we tend to be so afraid our daughters becoming sexual beings of their own, we try to stop their progress at every turn.

as fathers and potential fathers if we don't embrace the female sexuality of our daughters, they're just going to do it behind our backs anyway.

and when they do it behind our backs, it places them in even more danger.

when they have to sneak the short skirt in their backpack and change into it when they get to school because you can't handle their budding sexuality, that puts them in even more danger.

when they have to jump out the bedroom window, to sneak off to some disco party at the bizmark, because you can't handle their sexual lusts, that puts them into danger.

when you don't give them the key to the house, because you have to work and you don't want them having sex in the house while you aren't, they end up having sex at someone else's house anyway.

so r. kelly didn't just phuck those girls, they also had a hand in phucking him. however, in our minds we want our daughters to be good little girls who don't do that sort of thing.

i have two little sisters and a sisters-in-law who do that sort of thing. they do it behind their parents back and i know from experience that having to do things behind your parents back can your spin your life out of control. so i try to empower them and impress upon them that they have a role in everything they do. they are not victims. they are not passive participants. men don't just do things to them. they act.

so i think that during this time when our country's leaders are ready to blow the phuck up 1000s of people, this issue with r. kelly is a non-issue. clearly, the people who buy his albums think so too.

in the end, should society determine our destiny or should we determine our own?

[ March 04, 2003, 12:01 PM: Message edited by: kenspank ]

[GROOVE VICTIM]

This reminds me of when Marion Barry was caught on tape smoking crack, then a few years later he was re-elected.

Gee willikers

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by kenspank:
society may be appauled by a man phucking a young woman, but is it because we automatically think a woman is a victim of a man's desires? do we acknowledge that women have sexual desires and agendas of their own? are we equally as appauled when an older woman phucks a teenage boy?

most of the time, not. so as fathers we tend to be so afraid our daughters becoming sexual beings of their own, we try to stop their progress at every turn.

as fathers and potential fathers if we don't embrace the female sexuality of our daughters, they're just going to do it behind our backs anyway.

and when they do it behind our backs, it places them in even more danger.

when they have to sneak the short skirt in their backpack and change into it when they get to school because you can't handle their budding sexuality, that puts them in even more danger.

when they have to jump out the bedroom window, to sneak off to some disco party at the bizmark, because you can't handle their sexual lusts, that puts them into danger.

when you don't give them the key to the house, because you have to work and you don't want them having sex in the house while you aren't, they end up having sex at someone else's house anyway.

so r. kelly didn't just phuck those girls, they also had a hand in phucking him. however, in our minds we want our daughters to be good little girls who don't do that sort of thing.

i have two little sisters and a sisters-in-law who do that sort of thing. they do it behind their parents back and i know from experience that having to do things behind your parents back can your spin your life out of control. so i try to empower them and impress upon them that they have a role in everything they do. they are not victims. they are not passive participants. men don't just do things to them. they act.

so i think that during this time when our country's leaders are ready to blow the phuck up 1000s of people, this issue with r. kelly is a non-issue. clearly, the people who buy his albums think so too.

in the end, should society determine our destiny or should we determine our own?good post

[JMJ]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
I hear yall. In this particular case, and we have to talk about this individual case, the girl was going to have sex rather or not it was R. kelly. There is a big difference between 6yrs old and 14 year old girls. Once again I'm not validating his actions..Under age means UNDER AGE. Now since the girl was going to have sex anyway, at least it was R Kelly. Got a great album out, so she could've done a lot worse. Be sure to take your kids to the Neverland Ranch for a weekend with Michael. He's a big star, ya know.....JMJ

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by JMJ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
I hear yall. In this particular case, and we have to talk about this individual case, the girl was going to have sex rather or not it was R. kelly. There is a big difference between 6yrs old and 14 year old girls. Once again I'm not validating his actions..Under age means UNDER AGE. Now since the girl was going to have sex anyway, at least it was R Kelly. Got a great album out, so she could've done a lot worse. Be sure to take your kids to the Neverland Ranch for a weekend with Michael. He's a big star, ya know.....JMJ</font>[/QUOTE]Is it about R. Kelly's stardom or the fact that she was underage? would everyone be so damned outraged if it was anotha average Joe...honestly I don't think so?

[formerly known as kenspank]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JMJ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
I hear yall. In this particular case, and we have to talk about this individual case, the girl was going to have sex rather or not it was R. kelly. There is a big difference between 6yrs old and 14 year old girls. Once again I'm not validating his actions..Under age means UNDER AGE. Now since the girl was going to have sex anyway, at least it was R Kelly. Got a great album out, so she could've done a lot worse. Be sure to take your kids to the Neverland Ranch for a weekend with Michael. He's a big star, ya know.....JMJ</font>[/QUOTE]Is it about R. Kelly's stardom or the fact that she was underage? would everyone be so damned outraged if it was anotha average Joe...honestly I don't think so?</font>[/QUOTE]welcome to the diamond life.

[JMJ]

Would it be OK to PHUCK a mentally-handicapped 14 year-old girl, with her consent of course?? What's the difference??.......JMJ

[formerly known as kenspank]

okay i'll go there with you.
i feel like the mentally and physically handicapped need love to. it would be okay for them to phuck someone else. with or without my permission.

[JMJ]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by JMJ:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Ashaki:
I hear yall. In this particular case, and we have to talk about this individual case, the girl was going to have sex rather or not it was R. kelly. There is a big difference between 6yrs old and 14 year old girls. Once again I'm not validating his actions..Under age means UNDER AGE. Now since the girl was going to have sex anyway, at least it was R Kelly. Got a great album out, so she could've done a lot worse. Be sure to take your kids to the Neverland Ranch for a weekend with Michael. He's a big star, ya know.....JMJ</font>[/QUOTE]Is it about R. Kelly's stardom or the fact that she was underage? would everyone be so damned outraged if it was anotha average Joe...honestly I don't think so?</font>[/QUOTE]Is society being too hard on him because he's a star?? Should we give him a free pass on this one?? He's got a hit album out, ya know... Shit goes on everyday with average Joe's that we never hear about. WRONG IS WRONG!!!!!! Forgive me if I get caught PHUCKING a FETUS. She winked at me......JMJ graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[JMJ]

Originally posted by kenspank:
okay i'll go there with you.
i feel like the mentally and physically handicapped need love to. it would be okay for them to phuck someone else. with or without my permission.This is beyond PHUCKING stupid. I'm out.......JMJ graemlins/jpshakehead.gif

[mhd]

i urge you guys to re-read Wild I's post again, i thank her for sharing those horrible but all too common stories. she narrowly escaped a serial sexual predatory pedophile, actually, she did not escape, she was sexually assaulted on two occaisions, by an average joe, whose means of seduction were a couple of dollars. the sad truth is that there are few young girls that do not suffer some sort of sexual assault in their teen years.

the movie antoine fisher depicted a scene where a young boy was raped by an older girl and the devastating effects it caused

[formerly known as kenspank]

that would be difficult to get on tape, but whatever floats your boat. as long as noone is harmed unwillingly, who am i to judge.

[formerly known as kenspank]

Originally posted by mhd:
i urge you guys to re-read Wild I's post again, i thank her for sharing those horrible but all too common stories. she narrowly escaped a serial sexual predatory pedophile, actually, she did not escape, she was sexually assaulted on two occaisions, by an average joe, whose means of seduction were a couple of dollars. the sad truth is that there are few young girls that do not suffer some sort of sexual assault in their teen years.

the movie antoine fisher depicted a scene where a young boy was raped by an older girl and the devastating effects it causedi feel you. sexual assault is worthy of punishment. however, i think that every sex act with a minor or between minors cannot unilaterally be considered sexual assault.

[Bill Blake]

No one finds it a little 'dis-heartning' that a man that has been accused of child molestation at least 4 times now (?), has the number one album in the country?

[Wild i]

Originally posted by mhd:
i urge you guys to re-read Wild I's post again, i thank her for sharing those horrible but all too common stories. she narrowly escaped a serial sexual predatory pedophile, actually, she did not escape, she was sexually assaulted on two occaisions, by an average joe, whose means of seduction were a couple of dollars. the sad truth is that there are few young girls that do not suffer some sort of sexual assault in their teen years.

the movie antoine fisher depicted a scene where a young boy was raped by an older girl and the devastating effects it causedThanks Mark. I noticed the deafening silence in response to my post. Perhaps it interrupted the rantings of "Consent is consent at any age."

The notiion that "lots of young girls do it," somehow makes it alright is ludicrous (sp?) Lots of young people get turned out to heroin, crack and prostitution every day too. Is that alright? There's a reason why 14 is not the age of consent -- for girls or boys. Just because "society" gives a wink and a shake to underage boys screwing doesn't make it right. It's probably the reason there are so many, excuse me, screwed up men who can't commit to anything and think it's a woman's fault they can't piss straight (or whatever).

The girl(s) in that video is in desparate need of parenting. R. Kelly needs jail time.

[Bill Blake]

And consider the double standards at work here.

If R Kelly was a nobody with the same charges filed against him and was even found not guilty, in a great deal of local communities he would be shuned, outcasted, and perhaps even tared and feathered.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Apparently not Jamie.

Unity.... graemlins/rofl.gif

Support... graemlins/rofl.gif

I guess Magus was right, the scene has turned to shit.

Peace

[Koffy Brown]

Originally posted by Wild i:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mhd:
i urge you guys to re-read Wild I's post again, i thank her for sharing those horrible but all too common stories. she narrowly escaped a serial sexual predatory pedophile, actually, she did not escape, she was sexually assaulted on two occaisions, by an average joe, whose means of seduction were a couple of dollars. the sad truth is that there are few young girls that do not suffer some sort of sexual assault in their teen years.

the movie antoine fisher depicted a scene where a young boy was raped by an older girl and the devastating effects it causedThanks Mark. I noticed the deafening silence in response to my post. Perhaps it interrupted the rantings of "Consent is consent at any age."

The notiion that "lots of young girls do it," somehow makes it alright is ludicrous (sp?) Lots of young people get turned out to heroin, crack and prostitution every day too. Is that alright? There's a reason why 14 is not the age of consent -- for girls or boys. Just because "society" gives a wink and a shake to underage boys screwing doesn't make it right. It's probably the reason there are so many, excuse me, screwed up men who can't commit to anything and think it's a woman's fault they can't piss straight (or whatever).

The girl(s) in that video is in desparate need of parenting. R. Kelly needs jail time.</font>[/QUOTE]I totally agree with you...the girls need parenting and R. Kelly needs help, just like any other person in this situation...but I guess my mind goes back to my young teenage years and some of the girls in my hood.

[fred da warrior]

I find this whole conversation disheartning.

[Steven Stewart]

Originally posted by kenspank:
society may be appauled by a man phucking a young woman, but is it because we automatically think a woman is a victim of a man's desires? do we acknowledge that women have sexual desires and agendas of their own? are we equally as appauled when an older woman phucks a teenage boy?

most of the time, not. so as fathers we tend to be so afraid our daughters becoming sexual beings of their own, we try to stop their progress at every turn.

as fathers and potential fathers if we don't embrace the female sexuality of our daughters, they're just going to do it behind our backs anyway.

and when they do it behind our backs, it places them in even more danger.

when they have to sneak the short skirt in their backpack and change into it when they get to school because you can't handle their budding sexuality, that puts them in even more danger.

when they have to jump out the bedroom window, to sneak off to some disco party at the bizmark, because you can't handle their sexual lusts, that puts them into danger.

when you don't give them the key to the house, because you have to work and you don't want them having sex in the house while you aren't, they end up having sex at someone else's house anyway.

so r. kelly didn't just phuck those girls, they also had a hand in phucking him. however, in our minds we want our daughters to be good little girls who don't do that sort of thing.

i have two little sisters and a sisters-in-law who do that sort of thing. they do it behind their parents back and i know from experience that having to do things behind your parents back can your spin your life out of control. so i try to empower them and impress upon them that they have a role in everything they do. they are not victims. they are not passive participants. men don't just do things to them. they act.

so i think that during this time when our country's leaders are ready to blow the phuck up 1000s of people, this issue with r. kelly is a non-issue. clearly, the people who buy his albums think so too.

in the end, should society determine our destiny or should we determine our own?Good Post Ken,
Interesting insite....

[Steven Stewart]

Originally posted by fred:
I find this whole conversation disheartning.Actually there's a lot to learn about society and differing viewpoints in this post.

[Steven Stewart]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
This reminds me of when Marion Barry was caught on tape smoking crack, then a few years later he was re-elected.

Gee willikersPeople forgive....NOBODY's perfect.

[Shalewa]

Wow... :(

It has been asked what harm is done by such imbalanced relationships? Aside from the reality that the younger a girl is when she first becomes pregnant the greater the likelihood that the father is an adult (STD infection rates are also higher for minors with adult partners...), I posit that the greatest harm done is to the psyches of all involved. The harm done is in acceptance by women and men, espcecially Black women and men, of the notion that women are sexually available to the highest bidder and that if you are gaining materially from a relationship, then it is all good even if your emotional and spiritual needs are not considered much less addressed or met. The harm done is evident in brothers putting themselves in precarious positions to try to "take care" of material needs because that is what they have learned a "man" does if he wants a woman to "love" him or to simply stick around. The harm done is in the plague of poor parenting and abandonned children due to children coming into life with parents who are not prepared to rear them because they are not grown themselves (NB: the young woman in the video in the video was being raised by extended family members because her parents were unable to care for her). The harm done is evidenced by the intense pressure on all young people to look, dress, speak and act out in sexually agressive ways to receive status, or attention or affection. The harm done is reflected in the stark hierarchical paradigm that many folks base their romantic relationships on; a model where folks variously strive to dominate and control their partners or never move to assert their autonomous personhood. Where is the harm? It is all around us and often deep within us judging by the many deeply wounded people walking the world.

Groove and Jamie L., do you listen to Miles Davis' music? I ask because your question about buying and listening to R. Kelly's work closely parallels the question Pearl Cleage asks in her essay "Mad at Miles" which was written in response to Miles' admission to violent and hateful behavior towards women in his life in his autobiography.

[ March 04, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Shalewa ]

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Point taken Shalewa for I am aware of Miles Davis's abuse, but would you play "Feelin on your booty" in front of your children? I think not.

[ March 04, 2003, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: GROOVE VICTIM ]

[Wild i]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
Wow... :(

It has been asked what harm is done by such imbalanced relationships? Aside from the reality that the younger a girl is when she first becomes pregnant the greater the likelihood that the father is an adult (STD infection rates are also higher for minors with adult partners...), I posit that the greatest harm done is to the psyches of all involved. The harm done is in acceptance by women and men, espcecially Black women and men, of the notion that women are sexually available to the highest bidder and that if you are gaining materially from a relationship, then it is all good even if your emotional and spiritual needs are not considered much less addressed or met. The harm done is evident in brothers putting themselves in precarious positions to try to "take care" of material needs because that is what they have learned a "man" does if he wants a woman to "love" him or to simply stick around. The harm done is in the plague of poor parenting and abandonned children due to children coming into life with parents who are not prepared to rear them because they are not grown themselves (NB: the young woman in the video in the video was being raised by extended family members because her parents were unable to care for her). The harm done is evidenced by the intense pressure on all young people to look, dress, speak and act out in sexually agressive ways to receive status, or attention or affection. The harm done is reflected in the stark hierarchical paradigm that many folks base their romantic relationships on; a model where folks variously strive to dominate and control their partners or never move to assert their autonomous personhood. Where is the harm? It is all around us and often deep within us judging by the many deeply wounded people walking the world.

Groove and Jamie L., do you listen to Miles Davis' music? I ask because your question about buying and listening to R. Kelly's work closely parallels the question Pearl Cleage asks in her essay "Mad at Miles" which was written in response to Miles' admission to violent and hateful behavior towards women in his life in his autobiography.Eloquently stated, Sha-woman! Thanks!

[Shalewa]

I don't disagree with you on this...

One of the best pieces of student produced work I have had the pleasure of seeing was a monologue by an 8th grade girl about the perils of having "a big booty". Her last few lines talked about the things she wishes adults noticed about her besides her body. The last line was, "I certainly don't need no grown-assed man yodeling about my booty." She then exited the stage as "Feeling on Your Booty" faded in.

[mhd]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
I don't disagree with you on this...

One of the best pieces of student produced work I have had the pleasure of seeing was a monologue by an 8th grade girl about the perils of having "a big booty". Her last few lines talked about the things she wishes adults noticed about her besides her body. The last line was, "I certainly don't need no grown-assed man yodeling about my booty." She then exited the stage as "Feeling on Your Booty" faded in.powerful, brings to mind how many times r kelly has been rejected, or how many times a "girl" has told him "i can't do that" or "that is nasty" and put her clothes on and walked out, or just smacked the shit out of him...

[Jamie 3:26]

To the sisters who know better...big ups...and keep on teaching.The revolution will start with ya'll.I am trying to get the bruzz together,cause we need a lot of work.

Like I said earlier,I saw a lot of things differently after I noticed guys looking at my sisters.I changed drastically,almost overnite.

Grown ass men or women should not be lusting after anything young...girls or boys.

[Balactus]

i cannot believe the shit i'm reading in this thread. i've heard this shit from other women too. R. kelly had sex with a 14 y.o. girl that's 4 years younger than the age of consent. i know for sure i didn't have a clue what was going on when i was 14 and now people are saying that some girl might've had a clue what she was doing. bull shizzznit. think back to when you were fourteen how easy would it have been to take advantage of you. i could've been taken advantage of at 17 or 18 this is rediculous if this guy is guilty throw his ass in jail and throw away the key.

w

[Koffy Brown]

Great post Shalewa...also, what about Marvin Gaye?

[Jamie 3:26]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
Great post Shalewa...also, what about Marvin Gaye?Him too...and don't forget Woody Allen.I don't discriminate...they took his ass back too.Even showing him and her together at Knicks games..

[Jamie 3:26]

The one difference with Marvin is he asked her parents for her hand in marriage,when she was of age.

[GROOVE VICTIM]

Hmmm... how many of you plan to stop playing "Got to give it up" at your gigs?

[House]

IF R Kelly is guilty then his ass should suffer...and i do mean suffer

I do however like his music and can seperate the art from the artist as I do with Neitszche, Jefferson, Miles and the list goes on

I am still not willing to convict him before myself (or a jury ) has heard the case...although i'm a BIG lover of porn i havent and will never see that video as i'm not into that....

there are obviously many asses on this board - to defend child sex is just stupid - would peeps say the same thing about a nambla member or the church scandals - ****ing morons

[Bold Soul]

Interesting how the topic is about his ALBUM and not his ISSUES. Further proof that he won't be seen as an artist before he's seen as a pedofile.

All of this makes me wonder if anyone is aware or even interested in the sociological and psychological issues that exist in the ghettos of America. R. Kelly's behavior is indigeous and typical in American ghettos. It's damned close to being anthropological.

Everything isn't about Iraq, yall. :(

[Bold Soul]

Thanks for your courage Shalewa.

These girls don't need "parenting". R. Kelly doesn't need "help". Her parenting comes from the same mindsets and sectors from where the problem stems. R. Kelly's help comes from sham clergy and local politicians and media figures who are lecherous in intent.

What is required is a true examination and developed response against the sociologically pathological behavior traits that occur in ghettos across the US. It should be a gov't supported field of study and the results of its research should be incorporated in gov't funded SECULAR outreach programs.

[HML]

I'd like to start this post with two quotes:
(1) "Let the person, who is without sin, cast the first stone."
(2) "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones."

I am not now, nor will I ever be, an R Kelly fan.
I've always found his music to be tasteless, soft-core aural pornography.

I do not condone the sexual practices of this man. But, I do not believe he is a sexual predator or child molester. He is a man who has a dangerous and illegal penchant for very young women.

But, for all you guys on the soapbox, show a little understanding, huh? Let me give you a little scenario... Its a hot summer day and you've gone to the mall to do a little shopping, grab a bite to eat, catch a movie, etc... As you walk through the mall you notice a young woman. Wow is she built! Short shorts or skirt, great legs, toned and shapely... Hip-huggers and damn, the waist band of her underwear is showing... O Geez, she's wearing a thong... Bare midriff, tight little stomach, belly button pierced... Exceptionally large breasts... maybe the nipples are sticking out a bit... You look at the face to complete the package and BAM!!! You realize that the girl you just peeped can't be much older that 13-16 years old!!! :eek: Guys, please be honest... We've all been in this or a similar scenario. The difference is we glance, enjoy the eye candy and move on away from the forbidden fruit. Therein lies Mr Kelly's dilemma. His fan base is full of these scantily-clad, built-like-a-brick-house young tarts. All making themselves completely available to his whims and weaknesses and desires. R Kelly is a kid in a candy store. And the sad truth is, a lot of these girls are ready, willing, and surprisingly (scarily) able to give him what he seeks.

The average every day Joe might entertain the fantasy for a minute or two. Rationality and logic kick in (and the desire to remain out of jail). You put it out of your mind and move on. But, please, let's not be hypocrites. We've all lusted for something we know we weren't supposed to have...

SOLUTIONS:

~ Teach our children to carry themselves with decency and dignity. To respect themselves and demand respect from others.
~ Teach our daughters that they don't have to show every bump and curve in order to get attention and to be liked.
~ Teach our kids that sex is a HUGE responsibility. One that can only be handled with maturity and in the confines of an ideal relationship (ie MARRIAGE)!!
~ Men like R Kelly do have a problem. His demon is an uncontrollable desire for young flesh. I say get the man some serious psycho therapy. And the girls he was messing with need the same...

Peacefully,
HML

[House]

Originally posted by HML:
I'd like to start this post with two quotes:
(1) "Let the person, who is without sin, cast the first stone."
(2) "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones."

I am not now, nor will I ever be, an R Kelly fan.
I've always found his music to be tasteless, soft-core aural pornography.

I do not condone the sexual practices of this man. But, I do not believe he is a sexual predator or child molester. He is a man who has a dangerous and illegal penchant for very young women.

But, for all you guys on the soapbox, show a little understanding, huh? Let me give you a little scenario... Its a hot summer day and you've gone to the mall to do a little shopping, grab a bite to eat, catch a movie, etc... As you walk through the mall you notice a young woman. Wow is she built! Short shorts or skirt, great legs, toned and shapely... Hip-huggers and damn, the waist band of her underwear is showing... O Geez, she's wearing a thong... Bare midriff, tight little stomach, belly button pierced... Exceptionally large breasts... maybe the nipples are sticking out a bit... You look at the face to complete the package and BAM!!! You realize that the girl you just peeped can't be much older that 13-16 years old!!! :eek: Guys, please be honest... We've all been in this or a similar scenario. The difference is we glance, enjoy the eye candy and move on away from the forbidden fruit. Therein lies Mr Kelly's dilemma. His fan base is full of these scantily-clad, built-like-a-brick-house young tarts. All making themselves completely available to his whims and weaknesses and desires. R Kelly is a kid in a candy store. And the sad truth is, a lot of these girls are ready, willing, and surprisingly (scarily) able to give him what he seeks.

The average every day Joe might entertain the fantasy for a minute or two. Rationality and logic kick in (and the desire to remain out of jail). You put it out of your mind and move on. But, please, let's not be hypocrites. We've all lusted for something we know we weren't supposed to have...

SOLUTIONS:

~ Teach our children to carry themselves with decency and dignity. To respect themselves and demand respect from others.
~ Teach our daughters that they don't have to show every bump and curve in order to get attention and to be liked.
~ Teach our kids that sex is a HUGE responsibility. One that can only be handled with maturity and in the confines of an ideal relationship (ie MARRIAGE)!!
~ Men like R Kelly do have a problem. His demon is an uncontrollable desire for young flesh. I say get the man some serious psycho therapy. And the girls he was messing with need the same...

Peacefully,
HMLon the flipside:

i'm a huge r kelly fan
i ain't gonna stone him til if and when he's covicted of a crime
i like a nice peice of fresh ass as much (nah, more) than the next man

that being sid, **** r kelly and 5 cats who look like him if he did this deed.......

anybody can pull underage ass - as long as you got a car and some lollipops..and the shit is still WRONG...yeah i've seen young broads that i'd ****...BUT I DON'T..why?...CAUSE ITS WRONG...

aint no talkin our way around it...funny how noone wants to apply this same argument to catholic presits - and the reason...CAUSE ITS BULLSHIT

[HML]

Thank you for your candor and honesty Buddy Love. Allz I'm saying is this... R Kelly's misdeeds are not condoned or rationalized away because his "partners were willing". But, his behavior is understandable. We've all been faced with similar temptations, but we find the will to resist. He wasn't able to. The young women are not completely excused, because we all know there's some fast little hussies out there... But, Mr Kelly, being the adult, should have exercised a little restraint and self control. I don't think the dude should go to jail, at worst a halfway house and serious counseling.

-HML

[Shalewa]

Originally posted by HML:
...I do not condone the sexual practices of this man. But, I do not believe he is a sexual predator or child molester. He is a man who has a dangerous and illegal penchant for very young women.Please explain to me what sexual predator is if not a person "who has a dangerous and illegal penchant for very young women"?


But, for all you guys on the soapbox, show a little understanding, huh? Let me give you a little scenario... Its a hot summer day and you've gone to the mall to do a little shopping, grab a bite to eat, catch a movie, etc... As you walk through the mall you notice a young woman. Wow is she built! Short shorts or skirt, great legs, toned and shapely... Hip-huggers and damn, the waist band of her underwear is showing... O Geez, she's wearing a thong... Bare midriff, tight little stomach, belly button pierced... Exceptionally large breasts... maybe the nipples are sticking out a bit... You look at the face to complete the package and BAM!!! You realize that the girl you just peeped can't be much older that 13-16 years old!!! :eek: Guys, please be honest... We've all been in this or a similar scenario. The difference is we glance, enjoy the eye candy and move on away from the forbidden fruit. Therein lies Mr Kelly's dilemma. His fan base is full of these scantily-clad, built-like-a-brick-house young tarts. All making themselves completely available to his whims and weaknesses and desires. R Kelly is a kid in a candy store. And the sad truth is, a lot of these girls are ready, willing, and surprisingly (scarily) able to give him what he seeks.
The average every day Joe might entertain the fantasy for a minute or two. Rationality and logic kick in (and the desire to remain out of jail). You put it out of your mind and move on. But, please, let's not be hypocrites. We've all lusted for something we know we weren't supposed to have...Try this scenario on for size. A girl is walking home from soccer practice on sunny day in gym clothes. She is athletic, healthy, and voluptuous. Since she has been working out she is a bit flushed, hey maybe even glowing. Her sweatshirt is tied around her waist emphasizing both its slimness and the curve of her hips. Her t-shirt is a bit clingy from the workout but certainly not low cut. It is a beautiful afternoon, birds are singing and the girl is lost in her thoughts as she walks home. Life is good she thinks when from a passing car she hears "DAYUM!!!!!! I would hit that shit in a minute." followed by assorted hissing sounds. She is a bit shaken and unwraps her sweatshirt from waist pulls it on and pulls the hood up over her head drawing the cord as tightly as she can leaving just her eyes visible (remarkably like a burqa in that regard) and finshes her walk counting sidewalk cracks. She fights tears because even though they've been happening for a couple of years she's still not used to the verbal assaults or sure what it is she does that provokes them. She is 13. She was me. So yeah I had great legs and big breasts and wore shorts and t-shirts like other 13 year old girls but no I was not asking for it.

Remember the person who until a little while ago was held up as America's most famous virgin and poster-girl for abstinance dresses pretty much like the "tart" in your example as do the millions of little girls and young teens in her thrall. I had a 3 year old student show up dressed like Britney Spears for Halloween last year and I dare you to find a pair of jeans (or any other pants) in a girls or juniors department that aren't hip-huggers.

I gotta ask you why it is ok to call a teenager who is dressed in the fashion of the day a "tart" and refer to her as "something"? It reads as deeply anti-girl as does your whole post which bends over backwards to justify bad behavior by adults.



SOLUTIONS:

~ Teach our children to carry themselves with decency and dignity. To respect themselves and demand respect from others.Name calling and demonizing is certainly the way to do this.

~ Teach our daughters that they don't have to show every bump and curve in order to get attention and to be liked.And what will you teach your sons?

~ Teach our kids that sex is a HUGE responsibility. One that can only be handled with maturity and in the confines of an ideal relationship (ie MARRIAGE)!!Check it out, the abstinence verse in Nas' "I Can" tells girls that they need to wait until their wedding night for their "kings" to make them into "queens". A perhaps unintended consequence of the verse and other abstinence until marriage messages is that they set girls up to be particularly receptive to the "security" and "seriousness" that attaches to relationships with adult men. These messages can also reinforce the madonna-whore concept and can have girls who have become sexually active feeling like they are on the wrong side of that line.

~ Men like R Kelly do have a problem. His demon is an uncontrollable desire for young flesh. I say get the man some serious psycho therapy. And the girls he was messing with need the same...

Peacefully,
HMLI think deep self examination is in order for many of us...

Especially those of us who would call underaged girls "fast little hussies" without any qualms...

[ March 04, 2003, 11:07 PM: Message edited by: Shalewa ]

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by HML:
Thank you for your candor and honesty Buddy Love. Allz I'm saying is this... R Kelly's misdeeds are not condoned or rationalized away because his "partners were willing". But, his behavior is understandable. We've all been faced with similar temptations, but we find the will to resist. He wasn't able to. The young women are not completely excused, because we all know there's some fast little hussies out there... But, Mr Kelly, being the adult, should have exercised a little restraint and self control. I don't think the dude should go to jail, at worst a halfway house and serious counseling.

-HMLSo how would you react if that was your daughter in that video..Im curious.

[Friday]

R.Kelly = a sad man who feels the need to masturbate in young women...a very sad man indeed in a very sad world.

[Brut by Faberge]

shalewa: that last post was brilliant, beautiful, and the most thought-provoking well-considered message on this thread BY FAR! not suckin up ;) just showing some gratitude...

[ngeso]

since hearing about the video last year i have not touched an R.Kelly record. that stuff remains shelved, i do not listen to it in private and i do not play R.Kelly records out. i am also not going to buy any records or other product by R.Kelly until he clears his name. whether he is a great composer and artist remains irrelevant to me at the moment - fact is that i feel uncomfortable with his sh*t right now.

until further notice i am not a customer.

[Wild i]

I am not as eloquent as Sister Shalewa, so let me just say this: All ya'll who are saying (all guys, I noticed) "guilty until proven innocent (I don't know what more proof you need than video tape THAT HE MADE), it's the young girls fault for being a tart, kid in a candy store, it's a natural reaction, etc., I better never find none of ya'll around my underaged kids. I don't want you going "natural" on them, or blaming them for your uncontrolled lust, or trying to take their candy.

[Koffy Brown]

Yawl are the bomb...rather or not we agree, you all bring some very enlightening points of view..

peace love and blessings...

it's about building and just as we communicated on this topic, we should be doing the same in the communities and within the confinements of our homes...

[HML]

Originally posted by Shalewa:
"Please explain to me what sexual predator is if not a person "who has a dangerous and illegal penchant for very young women"?"

IMO, a sexual predator is a person who aggressively seeks out, targets, then lures his victim (his prey) into an unwarranted, unwilling, illicit, lude, or indecent sexual act... What's your definition and how does R Kelly's actions fit into it?


"Try this scenario on for size. A girl is walking home from soccer practice on sunny day in gym clothes. She is athletic, healthy, and voluptuous. Since she has been working out she is a bit flushed, hey maybe even glowing. Her sweatshirt is tied around her waist emphasizing both its slimness and the curve of her hips. Her t-shirt is a bit clingy from the workout but certainly not low cut. It is a beautiful afternoon, birds are singing and the girl is lost in her thoughts as she walks home. Life is good she thinks when from a passing car she hears "DAYUM!!!!!! I would hit that shit in a minute." followed by assorted hissing sounds. She is a bit shaken and unwraps her sweatshirt from waist pulls it on and pulls the hood up over her head drawing the cord as tightly as she can leaving just her eyes visible (remarkably like a burqa in that regard) and finshes her walk counting sidewalk cracks. She fights tears because even though they've been happening for a couple of years she's still not used to the verbal assaults or sure what it is she does that provokes them. She is 13. She was me. So yeah I had great legs and big breasts and wore shorts and t-shirts like other 13 year old girls but no I was not asking for it."

It's unfortunate that you had to deal with that. Those guys were disrespectful, insensitive and downright rude.

"Remember the person who until a little while ago was held up as America's most famous virgin and poster-girl for abstinance dresses pretty much like the "tart" in your example as do the millions of little girls and young teens in her thrall. I had a 3 year old student show up dressed like Britney Spears for Halloween last year and I dare you to find a pair of jeans (or any other pants) in a girls or juniors department that aren't hip-huggers."

I disagree! I've bought plenty of pants/jeans for my daughters that weren't falling off their hips. Regular waistline clothes are still available... I've never looked at Britney Spears as a role model. She does whatever it takes to sell records and herself. Scruples and the affect on her young fanbase notwithstanding...

"I gotta ask you why it is ok to call a teenager who is dressed in the fashion of the day a "tart" and refer to her as "something"? It reads as deeply anti-girl as does your whole post which bends over backwards to justify bad behavior by adults."

Whoa there! "Anti-girl"?!? HUH? That's a very broad and serious accusation. Do you really have enough info to make such a charge? I don't think my post was misogynistic in any way!!! And I also stated more than once in my post that R Kelly's behavior was inexcusable. In no way am I condoning his, or anyone else's sexual deviancy! I'm examining the causes, not making excuses!! And please Shalewa, are you telling me that there's no such thing as a precocious child?!? Get REAL!!! My own daughter has told me stories of how other girls would throw themselves at her boyfriend because they knew that him and my daughter were not sexually active... What do you call that?!? I call it grown, fast and hussie-like behavior! ALL young girls are not INNOCENT and VICTIMIZED as you would have us believe!!

"Name calling and demonizing is certainly the way to do this."

Who's name-calling and demonizing?

"And what will you teach your sons?"

I'm not exactly sure, I have no sons... But, I surmise that, I would teach them to respect any woman as they would their sister or their mother. Women are not sexual conquests, they are our fellow human beings. Keep it in your pants!

"Check it out, the abstinence verse in Nas' "I Can" tells girls that they need to wait until their wedding night for their "kings" to make them into "queens". A perhaps unintended consequence of the verse and other abstinence until marriage messages is that they set girls up to be particularly receptive to the "security" and "seriousness" that attaches to relationships with adult men. These messages can also reinforce the madonna-whore concept and can have girls who have become sexually active feeling like they are on the wrong side of that line."

I'm not sure where you're taking me with that whole line... I'm teaching my kids that premarital sex is wrong. PERIOD!!! Call me old-fashioned and antiquated if you will. These new fangled teachings have got our kids so confused they don't know which way to turn!!! I'm not teaching my child that its okay to go out and screw if, 1) You're on birth control. 2) The guy uses a condom. 3) You really love the guy and feel that he loves you back. That is irresponsible and I'd be remiss in my role as a parent if I taught them that!!! So many things can go wrong when kids have sex too early!

"I think deep self examination is in order for many of us...

Especially those of us who would call underaged girls "fast little hussies" without any qualms..."

What world are you living in that does not have young girls that are "advanced"? Stop excusing and rationalizing this inappropriate behavior. Stop pretending that it does not exist!

Respectfully,
HML

[Wild i]

Originally posted by Wild i:
I am not as eloquent as Sister Shalewa, so let me just say this: All ya'll who are saying (all guys, I noticed) "guilty until proven innocent (I don't know what more proof you need than video tape THAT HE MADE), it's the young girls fault for being a tart, kid in a candy store, it's a natural reaction, etc., I better never find none of ya'll around my underaged kids. I don't want you going "natural" on them, or blaming them for your uncontrolled lust, or trying to take their candy.Sorry, that's "innocent until proven guilty."

[Wild i]

Originally posted by HML:
Originally posted by Shalewa:
"Please explain to me what sexual predator is if not a person "who has a dangerous and illegal penchant for very young women"?"

IMO, a sexual predator is a person who aggressively seeks out, targets, then lures his victim (his prey) into an unwarranted, unwilling, illicit, lude, or indecent sexual act... What's your definition and how does R Kelly's actions fit into it?


"Try this scenario on for size. A girl is walking home from soccer practice on sunny day in gym clothes. She is athletic, healthy, and voluptuous. Since she has been working out she is a bit flushed, hey maybe even glowing. Her sweatshirt is tied around her waist emphasizing both its slimness and the curve of her hips. Her t-shirt is a bit clingy from the workout but certainly not low cut. It is a beautiful afternoon, birds are singing and the girl is lost in her thoughts as she walks home. Life is good she thinks when from a passing car she hears "DAYUM!!!!!! I would hit that shit in a minute." followed by assorted hissing sounds. She is a bit shaken and unwraps her sweatshirt from waist pulls it on and pulls the hood up over her head drawing the cord as tightly as she can leaving just her eyes visible (remarkably like a burqa in that regard) and finshes her walk counting sidewalk cracks. She fights tears because even though they've been happening for a couple of years she's still not used to the verbal assaults or sure what it is she does that provokes them. She is 13. She was me. So yeah I had great legs and big breasts and wore shorts and t-shirts like other 13 year old girls but no I was not asking for it."

It's unfortunate that you had to deal with that. Those guys were disrespectful, insensitive and downright rude.

"Remember the person who until a little while ago was held up as America's most famous virgin and poster-girl for abstinance dresses pretty much like the "tart" in your example as do the millions of little girls and young teens in her thrall. I had a 3 year old student show up dressed like Britney Spears for Halloween last year and I dare you to find a pair of jeans (or any other pants) in a girls or juniors department that aren't hip-huggers."

I disagree! I've bought plenty of pants/jeans for my daughters that weren't falling off their hips. Regular waistline clothes are still available... I've never looked at Britney Spears as a role model. She does whatever it takes to sell records and herself. Scruples and the affect on her young fanbase notwithstanding...

"I gotta ask you why it is ok to call a teenager who is dressed in the fashion of the day a "tart" and refer to her as "something"? It reads as deeply anti-girl as does your whole post which bends over backwards to justify bad behavior by adults."

Whoa there! "Anti-girl"?!? HUH? That's a very broad and serious accusation. Do you really have enough info to make such a charge? I don't think my post was misogynistic in any way!!! And I also stated more than once in my post that R Kelly's behavior was inexcusable. In no way am I condoning his, or anyone else's sexual deviancy! I'm examining the causes, not making excuses!! And please Shalewa, are you telling me that there's no such thing as a precocious child?!? Get REAL!!! My own daughter has told me stories of how other girls would throw themselves at her boyfriend because they knew that him and my daughter were not sexually active... What do you call that?!? I call it grown, fast and hussie-like behavior! ALL young girls are not INNOCENT and VICTIMIZED as you would have us believe!!

"Name calling and demonizing is certainly the way to do this."

Who's name-calling and demonizing?

"And what will you teach your sons?"

I'm not exactly sure, I have no sons... But, I surmise that, I would teach them to respect any woman as they would their sister or their mother. Women are not sexual conquests, they are our fellow human beings. Keep it in your pants!

"Check it out, the abstinence verse in Nas' "I Can" tells girls that they need to wait until their wedding night for their "kings" to make them into "queens". A perhaps unintended consequence of the verse and other abstinence until marriage messages is that they set girls up to be particularly receptive to the "security" and "seriousness" that attaches to relationships with adult men. These messages can also reinforce the madonna-whore concept and can have girls who have become sexually active feeling like they are on the wrong side of that line."

I'm not sure where you're taking me with that whole line... I'm teaching my kids that premarital sex is wrong. PERIOD!!! Call me old-fashioned and antiquated if you will. These new fangled teachings have got our kids so confused they don't know which way to turn!!! I'm not teaching my child that its okay to go out and screw if, 1) You're on birth control. 2) The guy uses a condom. 3) You really love the guy and feel that he loves you back. That is irresponsible and I'd be remiss in my role as a parent if I taught them that!!! So many things can go wrong when kids have sex too early!

"I think deep self examination is in order for many of us...

Especially those of us who would call underaged girls "fast little hussies" without any qualms..."

What world are you living in that does not have young girls that are "advanced"? Stop excusing and rationalizing this inappropriate behavior. Stop pretending that it does not exist!

Respectfully,
HMLHML, I believe what the sister is trying to make you realize is that you are blaming the victim. Let's take it out of the heated realm of sex for a second and look at it dispassionately.

If your 7-year-old wants ice cream and cake for breakfast, would you let him or her have it? Of course not, because you're the adult and you know better. If they see you drinking a beer, which you do only occasionally, and they want a beer too, would you give it to them? Of course not because you're the adult and you know better. If you catch them sneaking a beer with their friends in the garage, are you going to issue punishment? Of course you are because you're the adult and you know they need guidance. What if the man down the street calls them into his house and offers them a beer? Are you going to exact punishment for the child and the adult or just the child? What if you child were 12 or 13, would you still punish him or her? Just because a child wants something or emulates adult behaviors doesn't mean they're "fast" or "hussies." (That's where the name-calling comes in, by the way.) Children start imitating adults almost from the time they are born. If the adults don't set limits, they become "fast" if there are adults around who take advantage, the children (girls) are considered "loose." The fact of the matter is, they're still victims, both of the inadequate parenting and of the adults who take advantage of that.

There are definite limits to what a society can allow and still survive as a society. If the children are not protect, society will crumble for they are our future. People who take advantage of children should, in my humble opinion, be ostracized and snubbed at the very least, punished at the very best.

[formerly known as kenspank]

i've read the last couple of pages of posts. men have been described as sexual predators. women have been described as sexual victims.

several have shown disgust for older men who show sexual interest in young women. fine. but millions of young women show sexual interest in older men every day. teenage girls have posters of 20 something male superstars in their bedrooms everywhere. they worship them. they probably masturbate to them. it seems that our culture's distaste for lust is not based in reality. because we fail to acknowledge it and embrace it, it rears its ugly head in various forms of sexual deviancy based in fear, hatred, power, and control.

in the absence of clear signs of estrus, men need to gather information from women's bodies. men need a waist to hip ratio to determine if the woman is best suited for child bearing. men need to examine the height of a woman's breasts on her chest. if they are high, then the woman is in her child bearing years. if they are low, then the woman is past her child bearing years. if a woman bends over and displays her blood engorged genitalia, then she is sexual reciptive. if she doesn't, then she isn't.

a woman needs to look at a man's general height and build. she needs to look at him and determine from his eye contact and general demeanor how confident he is about himself and his social status. she also needs to look at his genitalia (primates do this) to determine information about the sex of the children they could have together.

in a society where people didn't wear so many clothes, it would be this simple. but in this society, people wear clothes, so determining sexual receptivity and other reproductive information is a bit more elusive.

women wear lip gloss to elude to well lubricated genitalia. they wear blush to simulate elevated blood pressure and flushness. women wear bras that lie about the position of their breasts. they wear high-heeled shoes that better exentuate the buttocks. they wear form fitting clothing to flatter their waist-to-hip ratio. they wear eye make up, arch their eyebrows, and wear false eyelashes to better communicate their intentions with their eyes.

i say this to say that women are not victims. women should not think of themselves as victims. they are not damsels in distress that need to be saved by some mythical superhero or prince charming.

the following is our body of knowledge about men and women:

boys: bad;
(snips and snails and puppy dog tails)
girls: good
(sugar and spice and everything nice)

"Boys will be boys" "She's such a little angel" "He's such a little terror" "She's such a proper young lady"

little boys are naughty and rambunctious, competitive and misbehave; little girls are pleasant and nice, polite, cooperative and well-mannered

the phrase "little gentleman" carrying the implication that the boy is not behaving naturally, i.e. according to his true nature; either he's been trained/reined in, is putting up an act, or is a sissy or a momma's boy

none of those things being good; in fact, bad boy = good (or at least normal)

likewise, a "bad girl" has gone astray, and does not behave after her true nature; bad girl = bad

sex is naughty

"Men's magazines" (the whole genre belonging to men)

"Exploitation of women"

"Wifely duty"

"All pentration is rape"

we live our lives perpetuating these roles. believing in these roles. drop the roles. own your own desires. own your self. stop living out these lies that create co-dependency in our relationships.

graemlins/cussing.gif

have a pleasant day. graemlins/remybussi.gif

[Shalewa]

Originally posted by HML:
Originally posted by Shalewa:
"Please explain to me what sexual predator is if not a person "who has a dangerous and illegal penchant for very young women"?"

IMO, a sexual predator is a person who aggressively eesks out, targets, then lures his victim (his prey) into an unwarranted, unwilling, illicit, lude, or indecent sexual act... What's your definition and how does R Kelly's actions fit into it?


"Try this scenario on for size. A girl is walking home from soccer practice on sunny day in gym clothes. She is athletic, healthy, and voluptuous. Since she has been working out she is a bit flushed, hey maybe even glowing. Her sweatshirt is tied around her waist emphasizing both its slimness and the curve of her hips. Her t-shirt is a bit clingy from the workout but certainly not low cut. It is a beautiful afternoon, birds are singing and the girl is lost in her thoughts as she walks home. Life is good she thinks when from a passing car she hears "DAYUM!!!!!! I would hit that shit in a minute." followed by assorted hissing sounds. She is a bit shaken and unwraps her sweatshirt from waist pulls it on and pulls the hood up over her head drawing the cord as tightly as she can leaving just her eyes visible (remarkably like a burqa in that regard) and finshes her walk counting sidewalk cracks. She fights tears because even though they've been happening for a couple of years she's still not used to the verbal assaults or sure what it is she does that provokes them. She is 13. She was me. So yeah I had great legs and big breasts and wore shorts and t-shirts like other 13 year old girls but no I was not asking for it."

It's unfortunate that you had to deal with that. Those guys were disrespectful, insensitive and downright rude.

"Remember the person who until a little while ago was held up as America's most famous virgin and poster-girl for abstinance dresses pretty much like the "tart" in your example as do the millions of little girls and young teens in her thrall. I had a 3 year old student show up dressed like Britney Spears for Halloween last year and I dare you to find a pair of jeans (or any other pants) in a girls or juniors department that aren't hip-huggers."

I disagree! I've bought plenty of pants/jeans for my daughters that weren't falling off their hips. Regular waistline clothes are still available... I've never looked at Britney Spears as a role model. She does whatever it takes to sell records and herself. Scruples and the affect on her young fanbase notwithstanding...

"I gotta ask you why it is ok to call a teenager who is dressed in the fashion of the day a "tart" and refer to her as "something"? It reads as deeply anti-girl as does your whole post which bends over backwards to justify bad behavior by adults."

Whoa there! "Anti-girl"?!? HUH? That's a very broad and serious accusation. Do you really have enough info to make such a charge? I don't think my post was misogynistic in any way!!! And I also stated more than once in my post that R Kelly's behavior was inexcusable. In no way am I condoning his, or anyone else's sexual deviancy! I'm examining the causes, not making excuses!! And please Shalewa, are you telling me that there's no such thing as a precocious child?!? Get REAL!!! My own daughter has told me stories of how other girls would throw themselves at her boyfriend because they knew that him and my daughter were not sexually active... What do you call that?!? I call it grown, fast and hussie-like behavior! ALL young girls are not INNOCENT and VICTIMIZED as you would have us believe!!

"Name calling and demonizing is certainly the way to do this."

Who's name-calling and demonizing?

"And what will you teach your sons?"

I'm not exactly sure, I have no sons... But, I surmise that, I would teach them to respect any woman as they would their sister or their mother. Women are not sexual conquests, they are our fellow human beings. Keep it in your pants!

"Check it out, the abstinence verse in Nas' "I Can" tells girls that they need to wait until their wedding night for their "kings" to make them into "queens". A perhaps unintended consequence of the verse and other abstinence until marriage messages is that they set girls up to be particularly receptive to the "security" and "seriousness" that attaches to relationships with adult men. These messages can also reinforce the madonna-whore concept and can have girls who have become sexually active feeling like they are on the wrong side of that line."

I'm not sure where you're taking me with that whole line... I'm teaching my kids that premarital sex is wrong. PERIOD!!! Call me old-fashioned and antiquated if you will. These new fangled teachings have got our kids so confused they don't know which way to turn!!! I'm not teaching my child that its okay to go out and screw if, 1) You're on birth control. 2) The guy uses a condom. 3) You really love the guy and feel that he loves you back. That is irresponsible and I'd be remiss in my role as a parent if I taught them that!!! So many things can go wrong when kids have sex too early!

"I think deep self examination is in order for many of us...

Especially those of us who would call underaged girls "fast little hussies" without any qualms..."

What world are you living in that does not have young girls that are "advanced"? Stop excusing and rationalizing this inappropriate behavior. Stop pretending that it does not exist!

Respectfully,
HMLI will probably not get a chance to respond point by point to this due to time limitations, do not mistake that for any part of a concession. I will say that my understanding of Kelly's pattern fits pretty neatly into your definition of sexual predator
seeks out, targets, then lures his victim (his prey) into an unwarranted, unwilling, illicit, lude[sic], or indecent sexual act...It has been widely reported that he cruised high schools for girls who were aspiring singers or in the case of the girl in the video preyed on a girl who was the relative of a colleague /lover. The girls have been descibed as being notably plain or otherwise particularly vulnerable to feeling like his attentions marked them as "special" and who were no doubt "willing" to please a powerful adult like most kids. I am hard pressed to say that sexual contact between a minor and an adult is ever warranted,or that the acts alledgedly depicted in the video could be described as anything but lewd. The contact was by definition illicit because the girls were underaged.

Glad you were able to find jeans for your daughters that covered them to your satisfaction. I know that the adult women of DHP have discussed on several ocassions our difficulty in doing the same.

I really have to run now HML but I challenge you to think closely about the way you are calling girls names (tarts, hussies) and demonizing them for acting out in the way that not just the media but more than likely their real world observations and experiences have taught them gets male attention.

I hope for the sake of all involved that your daughters are able to follow your abstinence teaching because I fear you would be hard pressed to embrace them if they aren't. I hope also that they do not feel hurried into marriage or locked in relationships that are not fulfilling to them by a need to followow your rules.

You are by the way making excuses fo R.Kelly and it is frankly appalling.

[ngeso]

Originally posted by kenspank:
in the absence of clear signs of estrus, men need to gather information from women's bodies. men need a waist to hip ratio to determine if the woman is best suited for child bearing. men need to examine the height of a woman's breasts on her chest. if they are high, then the woman is in her child bearing years. if they are low, then the woman is past her child bearing years. if a woman bends over and displays her blood engorged genitalia, then she is sexual reciptive. if she doesn't, then she isn't.
.....

in a society where people didn't wear so many clothes, it would be this simple. but in this society, people wear clothes, so determining sexual receptivity and other reproductive information is a bit more elusive.
ken, this is rubbish! what you're putting up is outrageous! you're now placing men on one level with baboons (and what's worse - you're feeding back-backlashers with pseudo-biological ammo).

i'm not even contesting your notion that women overemphasize their victim-status - i hate that as well! but the only way to actually get women to stop shouting "victim" is to prove to them that men can EVOLVE

i don't give a shit whether women are this that or the other, and how high or how low their pants fit, and whether they're hussies at 16, 15, 11 or 7 - i DO give a shit about R Kelly making men look WEAK!

peace. ngeso.

[ March 05, 2003, 09:30 AM: Message edited by: ngeso ]

[Koffy Brown]

Bold Soul made some very good points ...

[Wild i]

This is not about women claiming victimhood. This is about the victimization of a CHILD. Many of you may remember I had similar comments about Michael Jackson and his behavior with young boys. There were no women in the R. Kelly video, therefore no woman could have given consent. There is a legal age for adulthood and there is a reason why that age has been pushed up over the years. Juliette was 15, but I'll be damned if I would allow my 15 year old to marry in this day and age.

[ngeso]

Originally posted by Wild i:
There were no women in the R. Kelly video, therefore no woman could have given consent. There is a legal age for adulthood......and a 30+ year-old male needs to acknowledge this fact, full stop. no excuses.

[formerly known as kenspank]

thanks.

i think all life forms are equal. and i don't equate humans with baboons. i equate them with the bobonos. they are primates that resolve their differences with sex not violence. perhaps we could learn something from them.

with weapons of mass destruction we fail to recognize that there are living creatures on this planet that are strong than us and smarter than us. we don't revere them like the indigenous americans revere the bear or the eagle. we are delusional about life. poor us.

we crucify r. kelly like we crucify the female "slut". these are icons that live sexually against the status quo. with people like them around, we can all point at them make them evil. that way, we don't have to examine the evil within us. as long as someone else has a "problem", we never have to look at ourselves.

men don't have anything to prove to women. women don't have anything to prove to men. men don't have to be apologetic looking at women as sexual objects and women don't have to be apologetic about looking at men as cash stations. we all should stop handing over our personal power to ther people. we should all stop living vicariously through celebrities. we should all stop this negative business of gossip. and we should strive to end our own personal suffering.

[Wild i]

Originally posted by kenspank:
[QB]the female "slut". [QB]This pretty much explains your entire premise right here.

[ March 05, 2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Wild i ]

[ngeso]

ken, when men prove things to themselves (and to other men), the issue of having to prove things to women will not arise.

i, as a man, consider a child, a minor, as part of myself. i do not think of a child in (sexual) gender terms, nor do i consider a child to be solely a female responsibility. if i had children - daughters or sons, doesn't matter - my views and expectations would not differ from what Wild I or Shalewa are saying.

peace. ngeso.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Shalewa I loved your post. R Kelly need alot of help. The young women that he had violated need counseling and assurance that they have more to offer than their body.

I really don't understand why is that as a community we are willing to support R. Kelly who has committed such crimes and want to ridicule Jesse Jackson for having an affair with a grown woman. I told my daughter that she'd better not listen to his music and explained to her the seriousness of his actions.

So, to wrap it up - I will continue to pray for him and the people that support him.

[Koffy Brown]

and could someone please pray for the parents whom I am sure knew that their daughter was seeing and possibly sexing this man, but did nothing to protect her. The aunt "Sparkle" that basically hand delivered her to him...and everyone that was involved...

[formerly known as kenspank]

i think that children are never children.
they are people developing into this form. developing into themselves. often times we try to retard what they want to become and try to turn children into what we want them to be. we try to control them so that they turn out just right.

but generation after generation, the life spirit within children seeks its own path. it does what it needs to do in order to grow even though the parent tries to shield the child from danger. however, often times we need to experience the boundaries in order to know the boundaries. children find a way to become regardless of the obstalces we place in front of them.

the women in those videos do not look like they are under duress of any kind. r. kelly is not any more sick than they are. if there is anyone to blame, they all must share the blame. if anyone goes to jail, they should all go.

potentially they enjoyed those precious moments that were caught on video. if only we all experienced pure unadulterated joy every moment of our lives.

[Alanda Marquette from DiscoLadyLand]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
and could someone please pray for the parents whom I am sure knew that their daughter was seeing and possibly sexing this man, but did nothing to protect her. The aunt "Sparkle" that basically hand delivered her to him...and everyone that was involved...Yes, especially for the parents and adults responsible of selling their children. There is nothing cute about a girl that looks and dress older than their age.

[Wild i]

Originally posted by kenspank:
i think that children are never children.
they are people developing into this form. developing into themselves. often times we try to retard what they want to become and try to turn children into what we want them to be. we try to control them so that they turn out just right.

but generation after generation, the life spirit within children seeks its own path. it does what it needs to do in order to grow even though the parent tries to shield the child from danger. however, often times we need to experience the boundaries in order to know the boundaries. children find a way to become regardless of the obstalces we place in front of them.

the women in those videos do not look like they are under duress of any kind. r. kelly is not any more sick than they are. if there is anyone to blame, they all must share the blame. if anyone goes to jail, they should all go.

potentially they enjoyed those precious moments that were caught on video. if only we all experienced pure unadulterated joy every moment of our lives.Note to self: Buy shotgun tomorrow.

[Ron la Rock]

shalewa & wild i
i was moved deeply thanks 4 being brave and sharing very real up in here

also the questioning of removing an artists work from thier deeds & life
well I can separate the 2
this does not mean i support thier actions
nor condone these as well
however thier works the gifts
wich is always trying 2 express something
about 1 self good bad or
dark or lite or
in different is what art is made of without the entertainment aspect of it
(do i make any sense here?)
all the greats had turmoil & interconflicts making the very art abstract crys 4 reasoning or clearity

also know 1 including myself has stopped playing micheal jacksons records although its been very hard as of reccent the shit is clear
some responsible adulthood (espec in mikes case)
and parenting is missing from a lot of folks
enviorment
& I hope someone in kelly's circle has told him this wasn't gonna fly
well we know now he has the worst circle jerks & yes men crew in the world

so support is 1 thing blind support without reasoning is
something else all together

[Ron la Rock]

Originally posted by GROOVE VICTIM:
You guys are supporting the album, but not him right?

You guys are condoning a 30 year old man having sex with an underaged girl, but you support the album right?

Last year a bunch of us demonized this man, but we support his album right?

Anyone here have any crack?

Peacesome of the responses are disturbing 2 say the least
yes GROOVE someone is smoking crack graemlins/rofl.gif

[mhd]

Originally posted by kenspank:
i think that children are never children.
they are people developing into this form. developing into themselves. often times we try to retard what they want to become and try to turn children into what we want them to be. we try to control them so that they turn out just right.

but generation after generation, the life spirit within children seeks its own path. it does what it needs to do in order to grow even though the parent tries to shield the child from danger. however, often times we need to experience the boundaries in order to know the boundaries. children find a way to become regardless of the obstalces we place in front of them.

the women in those videos do not look like they are under duress of any kind. r. kelly is not any more sick than they are. if there is anyone to blame, they all must share the blame. if anyone goes to jail, they should all go.

potentially they enjoyed those precious moments that were caught on video. if only we all experienced pure unadulterated joy every moment of our lives.i am completely stunned by this comment..

[DJ Timmy Richardson]

Originally posted by kenspank:
i think that children are never children.
they are people developing into this form. developing into themselves. often times we try to retard what they want to become and try to turn children into what we want them to be. we try to control them so that they turn out just right.

but generation after generation, the life spirit within children seeks its own path. it does what it needs to do in order to grow even though the parent tries to shield the child from danger. however, often times we need to experience the boundaries in order to know the boundaries. children find a way to become regardless of the obstalces we place in front of them.

the women in those videos do not look like they are under duress of any kind. r. kelly is not any more sick than they are. if there is anyone to blame, they all must share the blame. if anyone goes to jail, they should all go.

potentially they enjoyed those precious moments that were caught on video. if only we all experienced pure unadulterated joy every moment of our lives.You need help man.

[Fletch]

Presuming someone innocent until proven guilty in a court of law does not automatically make someone a supporter of pedophiles and predators. If, or when, R Kelly is proven guilty, he should/will be dealt with.

Don't mean to bring up other cats, but didn't Julio Iglesias (in his 60s now?) allegedly have a fetish for young women? They may have been 18 or 19, though, which is legal, isn't it?

[Wild i]

I still trying to figure out what more proof one needs than his own videotape.

[Fletch]

Originally posted by Wild i:
I still trying to figure out what more proof one needs than his own videotape.The law/legal system still has to run its course.

[Wild i]

Originally posted by einnod23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wild i:
I still trying to figure out what more proof one needs than his own videotape.The law/legal system still has to run its course.</font>[/QUOTE]I understand your thinking, but I don't agree with it at all. I feel we rely too much on the gov't, church, or other outside influence to define for us what is right or wrong. The law should be involved only insofar as dispensing criminal justice. With regard to your own actions/reactions you must decide based on the evidence placed before you.

R. Kelly may not have yet been convicted of a crime, but that does not mean he has not already committed a crime against society and a crime against morality. I don't need the court to tell me that a grown man having sex with an underage girl is morally reprehensible. And since he was so obliging as to provide video taped evidence, there is no doubt in my mind as to his guilt, regardless of what the criminal justice system decides.

The man has insufficient funds in the morals bank.

[Fletch]

Originally posted by Wild i:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by einnod23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wild i:
I still trying to figure out what more proof one needs than his own videotape.The law/legal system still has to run its course.</font>[/QUOTE]I understand your thinking, but I don't agree with it at all. I feel we rely too much on the gov't, church, or other outside influence to define for us what is right or wrong. The law should be involved only insofar as dispensing criminal justice. With regard to your own actions/reactions you must decide based on the evidence placed before you.

R. Kelly may not have yet been convicted of a crime, but that does not mean he has not already committed a crime against society and a crime against morality. I don't need the court to tell me that a grown man having sex with an underage girl is morally reprehensible. And since he was so obliging as to provide video taped evidence, there is no doubt in my mind as to his guilt, regardless of what the criminal justice system decides.

The man has insufficient funds in the morals bank.</font>[/QUOTE]Chicago White Sox 1919
Scottsboro Boys
Central Park Jogger Teens

Three prime examples of how dangerous the Court of Public Opinion can get. This is not to provide support to R Kelly, but more of a reason to let the system run its course the correct way. Guilty until proven innocent is still dangerous. Peace.

[Wild i]

Originally posted by einnod23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The man has insufficient funds in the morals bank.Chicago White Sox 1919
Scottsboro Boys
Central Park Jogger Teens

Three prime examples of how dangerous the Court of Public Opinion can get. This is not to provide support to R Kelly, but more of a reason to let the system run its course the correct way. Guilty until proven innocent is still dangerous. Peace.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]I'm not talking about the court of public opinion. I'm talking about your own moral compass. Waiting to see what the crowd (be it the public or the bench) decides is the first step towards mob mentality.

[ March 07, 2003, 09:18 AM: Message edited by: Wild i ]

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by Wild i:
This is not about women claiming victimhood. This is about the victimization of a CHILD. Many of you may remember I had similar comments about Michael Jackson and his behavior with young boys. There were no women in the R. Kelly video, therefore no woman could have given consent. There is a legal age for adulthood and there is a reason why that age has been pushed up over the years. Juliette was 15, but I'll be damned if I would allow my 15 year old to marry in this day and age. Maybe I was watching another video, but out of the four sex acts I saw on the tape 3 of them were with women who looked like they were of age and only the last lady looked underage. Ironically, R. Kelly paid the women too.

The crazy twist to this story now is that R. Kelly just got through shooting a video with Michael Jackson. That doesn't look good for either of their careers. And while I feel Michael is still innocent, Stevie Wonder could be blindfolded and still see that R. Kelly is guilty. Just because MJ has problems that stem from not experiencing a normal childhood doesn't make him a child molester. R. Kelly has a problem, I don't care what anyone says. Pissing on somebody IS NOT normal sexual behavior. We are not mentally or physically wired to normally get aroused by waste removal!

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by Ashaki:
and could someone please pray for the parents whom I am sure knew that their daughter was seeing and possibly sexing this man, but did nothing to protect her. The aunt "Sparkle" that basically hand delivered her to him...and everyone that was involved... The girl's parents were paid to keep quiet. The girl herself got a Chrysler PT Cruiser for her services. The girl was Sparkle's niece, and Sparkle was at odds with R. Kelly at the time because of personnel differences over Sparkle's next album (which never came out). Ironically the X-factor in this whole fiasco is Barry Hankerson (Aaliyah's uncle), who R. Kelly fired a few months before the tapes came. Believe me, this is not a coincidence. That's all I can say for now.

[djmarbll]

Originally posted by einnod23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Wild i:
I still trying to figure out what more proof one needs than his own videotape.The law/legal system still has to run its course. </font>[/QUOTE]This is the only reason R. Kelly isn'y in jail now. If he wasn't rich, he wouldn't keep getting continuances. Just like O.J. would be on death row if he didn't have money, whether guilty or innocent.