need help on song structure and mixing

[<dan da house man>]

hi everyone.

i need some help.

i have problems with composing songs.

what is the typical structure of a house song?

i have problems with the terms used in song structure. is there anywhere i can read online or a book i can purchase that will explain the chorus, verse, intro, ending, fills, etc and what instruments percussion should be playing in those parts? how long those parts should be, what order they should be in? etc.

also, if you can direct me to some books or online info that explains mixing, like what should be the loudest instruments in the song, what volumes should certian parts be, when to use certain reverbs, etc. something with lots of info.

something that kinda says, the bass drum should be this loud in dB, the clap should be this loud, hi hats should be this loud, etc.

it's hard to find this sort of info, exp. info relating to the house style, the best style smile.gif

thanks for any info,

dan.

[O'love]

Originally posted by &lt;dan da house man&gt;:
hi everyone.

i need some help.

i have problems with composing songs.

what is the typical structure of a house song?

i have problems with the terms used in song structure. is there anywhere i can read online or a book i can purchase that will explain the chorus, verse, intro, ending, fills, etc and what instruments percussion should be playing in those parts? how long those parts should be, what order they should be in? etc.

also, if you can direct me to some books or online info that explains mixing, like what should be the loudest instruments in the song, what volumes should certian parts be, when to use certain reverbs, etc. something with lots of info.

something that kinda says, the bass drum should be this loud in dB, the clap should be this loud, hi hats should be this loud, etc.

it's hard to find this sort of info, exp. info relating to the house style, the best style smile.gif

thanks for any info,

dan. just try to recreate the songs you like and learn..........and then do your own thing......that's the only way....

Olaf

[drilla]

olaf makes a good point...

i think the best way to create your own lesson is be trying to recreate a song you dig. you will learn alot in the process...

as you create new compositions you will learn along the way...just keep on trying new stuff, but rememeber your mistakes and remember the things you like. you will form your own ways eventually...

rock on!

[<dan da house man>]

i thank you for your responses.

it's soo hard.

the problem is that i got a bad memory and i like things when they're written in stone.

i always love the scientific approach, just like in math, you have formulas to solve problems.

i wish someone would make a a-z manual on how to make house music smile.gif

do you guys recomend any books or know someone who could give me the info i stated in my last post?

thanks,

dan.

[O'love]

there is no formula to make good music...... even more: the formula is to use no formula ;)

[dcook]

i agree with Oluv.......it may be primarily electronic music made with music/sound generating robots, but music compositions, song structure does not neccessarily have to be robotic in nature......Its art. no rules are the only rules.....no specific structure can be your structure.....creative expression is all about not being mathematical and book learnt.....


that's just my two cents

[socratez]

first you learn all the rules, and then you forget all about them ( Charly Parker 1952)

In making music there are things you can learn. Lets be realistic,,, making music aint as structured solving math,,, but it aint magic either. There are rules, but they are not as explicit as in math. For instance, have you ever heard an AC/DC vocal on a Bassment Boys garage house track?? No,,,, and it will never happen, because it just wouldnt work.


So these are the things you can learn from text books:
Synthesis and sampling
Mixing and enginering techniques
Music Theory( chord progressions, and modes etc)

About arranging tracks;;; It will come to you,, if you have the right sounds and the right melodies, the arrangement will come naturaly most of the time. Dont rely to much on formulas, but rely on your inner ear. Your ears will have to tell you whats wrong or right.

[ August 31, 2004, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: socratez ]

[drilla]

right on socrates. ;)

also, it is good to keep in mind that music is defined as organized noise. if think about that definition, you will eventually realize that there is a mathematical formula for everything. music is mathematical. at the same measure, it is also creative and spontaneus...that is part of what makes it such a wonderful art form.

[<dan da house man>]

thanks for all the input guys.

these are the exact things in need to learn from a text book...

Mixing and enginering techniques
Music Theory( chord progressions, and modes etc)


i can make loops and musical patterns which are art, but i need to know the math in the other things. it's half art and half science.

terms are another another thing i have problems with.

also, which instruments can play at the same time as other instruments.

i know most is art form, but it's the math and methods that tie the art together.

if you guys know of any good books, please let me know because i've bought books already that don't serve my purpose and i don't wanna waste more money buying the wrong stuff because i'm not working right now due to sickness.

i would also like to learn how to orchestrate instruments using midi and how to use midi to make samples come alive so i can get that funky & disco sound which i love soo much.

thanks again for the input. if you have any more info, it would be a great help.


p.s, how do i get a membership to DHP? i would love to join.

[Nege]

Originally posted by socratez:
first you learn all the rules, and then you forget all about them ( Charly Parker 1952)



truth,
once you learn a formula or rules,it's alot easier to be experimental or creative afterwards.
formula and rules are just a guideline(well at least for me...)
Mixing is mostly trial and error,after you learn the basic rules.
everyone's ears hear differently.

[dennis f]

Here's to sharing......

1. If the kick seems like it's perfect just sitting right in the mix perfectly blending in...throw that fader up one notch. For some reason it works....don't ask...You have to fight the urge to bring it down or bring the other levels up to compensate though. I'm still learning this....and fighting it...that's why on some records I do the kick sometimes sounds light and sometimes sounds just right..bangin'.

2. Structure wise the general consensus on most house records you hear today is , that's if it's a vocal record, your verses should be in by about 1:30 as this gives a dj plenty of lead in time to mix into your tune. By that point that record should be jumpin' otherwise you risk the chance of boring someone right out the room.

3. Lyrical structures vary greatly.....sometimes they don't go the usual verse chorus verse chorus x2 bridge route. See KOT's "finally" as one of those records that does that. Depending on your track sometimes these kinds of stuctures work better.....the sort of I'm comin' out of left field thing is cool as long as you can bring the listener back to your focal point.

4. ARRANGEMENT ARRANGEMENT ARRANGEMENT.....I can't stress this enough. I'm still learning it. I've heard incredible records with just 4 sounds in it beat a floor to death while a well produced production just fall flat. It's all in how you arrange your tune. It's how you can keep suprising the listener..not boring them to death. Even with minimal stuff that's repetitive you can still find ways to surprise people. We tried this with "sandcastles".

5. Volume levels...hmmmmm since this is dance music the norm is to have the kick be the determining factor in relative volume and build around it. The bass will either be a notch below or even with it. Unless your doing stuff like ethnic music which in this case the bass is more predominant. Everything else falls in to the supporting cast column. It really comes down to what you want the listener to focus in on. If it's vocal record then you definitely want the vocal to be predominant and tightly enterwined with the kick and bass. Followed by whatever you think should support that vocal a bit underneath those 3 elements. Whether it's a pad, piano, ep or whatever. The rest after that is basically aural candy and sweeting to fill in your foundation. Goobs is the term quite frequently used. For track records the theory is basically the same....it's just that instead of the vox being the focus your using a particular sound with a particular rhythmic and melodic pattern to hook your listener in. Then once again...you provide the supporting cast.

You can search until your eyes blur but no one really gets it right....just what they think is right to them. Thats the key...that's why everyone kinda sounds different. That's why I love this.....it's always open to interpretation. In fact I've learned so many new things this week alone, I had a unique problem eq'ing a live bass that had missing tonality above the 250hz range so i did a search on eq'ing on google, that just when you think you know it all here comes somethin' else.

hope this helps a bit....and have fun on your quest...it's never-ending..but fullfilling.

peace

[dennis f]

BTW any instrument can go with any instrument...it's really more of a mixing and matching the range of frequencies that these instruments have in order to give them space and definition without them fighting each other. Do a search on mixing and eq'ing and you'll find charts that specifies instrument frequency ranges. Use these as a guide. Mixing is an another art unto it's ownself.....that's why some people get paid huge amounts of money to mix people's records.


peace

[GrantB]

Here's a couple beginners links that were posted to the MPC forums:

Song structure
http://www.tweakheadz.com/recipes.html
a decent article. This is just one way to do it but it's somewhere to start. A lot of beginners get stuck here and end up with nothing but a stack of drum loops and bass lines.

Drum programming
http://www.alandmoore.com/ramblings/TheoryOfDP.htm
this is a great article. It has a couple tips that took me years to figure out on my own. Soooo many people making records need to read this article. If you read between the lines, it explains why the "standard" boomchee house beat (he says disco) is so f*cking boring, and why you should maybe try to program more interesting and "realistic" beats sometimes (like real disco). Just my interpretation there...

Here are some tips from me:

1. Listen listen listen. Really listen to what your favorite producers are doing. Dan, most of your questions can be answered best by listening. Anything you could read in a book is meaningless compared to active listening.

2. Learn to play an instrument or two (or ten). This is not optional.

3. This should actually be number one. If you don't have the music inside you trying to bust out, don't make any and for gods sake don't put out a record. This is the #1 problem with house today IMO, too much music with no feeling and no message. Don't just go through the motions. Either have something to say or zip it and just dance (that's OK too!).

[<dan da house man>]

once again, much respect to all of you for taking time helping out someone you don't even know in person.

denis f, that is a wealth of info. thanks.

grant b, i know alot can be learned from listening but i have too much fun listening! lol

i know the music is in. it's not about money, girls or fame. it's about pleasure!

i'm dieing to get it out of me on vinyl form.

it's like i'm artisticly constipated. i know it's in me and i gotta find the right way to get it out or else it will cause me nothing but pain and discomfort. lol

i can play keyboard ok. i have some background and got some tools to do the trade. the thing i'm stuck on is how to use the tools to their full potential and how to make the finished product sound good and not harsh.

all i need is to be shown the way and guided for a bit. i will walk the rest of the way in my own fashion.

thanks all, for taking me some of the way.

if you have any more to add, it will always be welcome.


thanks again.

[<dan da house man>]

once again, much respect to all of you for taking time helping out someone you don't even know in person.

denis f, that is a wealth of info. thanks.

grant b, i know alot can be learned from listening but i have too much fun listening! lol

i know the music is in me. it's not about money, girls or fame. it's about pleasure!

i'm dieing to get it out of me on vinyl form.

it's like i'm artisticly constipated. i know it's in me and i gotta find the right way to get it out or else it will cause me nothing but pain and discomfort. lol

i can play keyboard ok. i have some background and got some tools to do the trade. the thing i'm stuck on is how to use the tools to their full potential and how to make the finished product sound good and not harsh.

all i need is to be shown the way and guided for a bit. i will walk the rest of the way in my own fashion.

thanks all, for taking me some of the way.

if you have any more to add, it will always be welcome.


thanks again.

[O'love]

dennis F: as always a goldmine of musical and production knowledge! cheers!

i really think there is no better lesson than to analyse one of your favorite tracks..... write down on a paper what happens when, with what kind of sounds...........try to describe the entire song...

then find the sounds to recreate the song yourself, and really try to recreate it as good as possible.......do this lots of times and in time you will get the hang of both what sounds to use when, plus arrangement, hooks, composition, chord structures........and you will notice that your own ideas want to be mixed in!

Olaf

[delshawn]

Originally posted by &lt;dan da house man&gt;:
i thank you for your responses.

it's soo hard.

the problem is that i got a bad memory and i like things when they're written in stone.

i always love the scientific approach, just like in math, you have formulas to solve problems.

i wish someone would make a a-z manual on how to make house music smile.gif

do you guys recomend any books or know someone who could give me the info i stated in my last post?

thanks,

dan. see this was a perfect example of a verse.
I am involved in "THE BIZ" here in jacksonville,fl. and to be perfoectly honest with you, then if you want a formula ... crwte your own. your sweat a little and write it down. you hear the answer already.... YOU are (not dissin' ya') looking for an easy way out.
You are your own tempo and verse, and if you are not..just buy the beats and lyrics from me.. i'll sell them to you.

...del
904.386.3350
Harlem of the South Records

P.s. your memory is not bad... maybe you been stoned a time or too to many...lol
keep it real.

[delshawn]

Originally posted by GrantB:


3. This should actually be number one. If you don't have the music inside you trying to bust out, don't make any and for gods sake don't put out a record. This is the #1 problem with house today IMO, too much music with no feeling and no message. Don't just go through the motions. Either have something to say or zip it and just dance (that's OK too!). AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


....del
904.386.3350
Harlem of the South Records