Digital Mixing Boards?

[DJ Keith Porter]

Does anyone here use a digital mixing board in their setup?

I want a mixing board to add to my setup and I have been looking at the Makie SV32/8 for a minute now.

On the other hand I am checking the new technology of Digital mixers.
I like the fact that your tweaking settings can be saved and reloaded automatically once you open a previous saved project.
I have been in studios that I have done work in and every time I got back there I either have to re-tweak the settings or some places had track sheets where you mark on the sheets where your levels are. That helps to jump back into the track but it still is a pain in the ass to go through that every time you pull up a track

Also I can't stand trying to EQ and level my tracks inside the programs. yuck!

Does anyone have the 411 on digital verses analog mixers for recording?

Thanks in advance!

[GrantB]

I used to use the Yamahas (02/R, 03/D, 01V) at work and I really liked those for digital mixers. They have good gain structure, decent converters, usable fx, complex eq and dynamics per channel, pretty good interfaces, and motorized faders. Very trouble free and well supported in my experience also. Today there are many more choices to explore though.

Analog vs digital mixers: With digital you get clean sound for cheap, total recall, and bonus built in converters and processing. Also if you set your whole deal up digitally you can avoid ever converting back to analog (run digital between your mixer and computer). I prefer the sound of analog eq and dynamics (for most purposes) and I like doing things without menus. Also a good analog desk is never obsoleted due to data format changes, etc. You have to pay serious $$$$$ for a good analog board though (not sold at Banjo Mart).

There is also an issue that has come up with analog vs digital summing in the past couple years. Summing is the actual mixing of the tracks, a term used to seperate this function from all the other things mixers can do. It turns out that as many pros went fully Pro Tools, they experienced flat 2 dimensional mixes unless they did the summing through an analog board. I have had this demonstrated to me and the effect is subtle but is definetly there. Somehow the digital mixing doesn't give things their own space in the mix quite as well as analog. Now there are boxes such as the Dangerous 2 Bus that do nothing but sum the analog signals coming from the multichannel D/A converters on the computer. You apply fx and set the actual levels/automation with the computer, but the analog box does the actual mixing and then sends it to the 2 track or back to the computer as your final mix. Anyway this phenomenon applies to digital outboard mixers as well. Note that it is a subtle effect and that in practice you will need a rack full of high-end converters and something really nice to sum the signals with to realize the benefits of this approach.

I would rather mix on analog but I'm an analog loving kind of guy. Digital mixers can make good economic sense for many smaller studios. You might also look into getting a control surface and let the computer do the actual mixing work. Your computer should be fast enough.

[DJ Keith Porter]

Thanks Grant B.

I hear what your saying and I am sure the Digital mixer has a clean sound.

I was looking into the digital mixer for the main reason you stated. I like the fact that it takes up less space and the cost it reachable.

As formats change it would be very frustrating to have a digital board that could not read certain formats while you’re in the middle of a project.

Lets say if that were the case how could you get around that issue if I had a Digital board that doesn't read the new format?

Is there any other solution to an issue like this?


You might also look into getting a control surface and let the computer do the actual mixing work. Your computer should be fast enough. Huuumm. Can you explain exactly what a control surface do?
Can a control surface control all the levels and EQ knobs in my program (Cubase, Logic, Reason, Sonar etc) where as I can physically tune my tracks from this out board gear?

I look forward to hearing you experience with a control surface.

I will do so searching to find one but I'd like to hear you opinion though.

Also with a control suface conflict with my Motu828? Is it a matter of having one or the other?

Im totally blind eye on control surfaces.


Respect.
DJ KP

[ April 15, 2004, 09:12 AM: Message edited by: DJ Keith Porter ]

[GrantB]

Re: formats. I'm just saying that for instance if I had bought one of the first generation digital boards that could only handle 16 bits at 48 kHz and then I started recording at 24 bits and 96 kHz on my computer, I would have to downgrade my audio quality (via bit and sample rate conversion in my computer or interface) in order to run it into my mixer. Also the physical interface format (AES/EBU, ADAT, TDIF) might cause some headaches if I got new a new converter/interface box and it didn't have the same sort of ports on it as my mixer. In practice, it's not that big a deal... you just have to look at all the parts as a whole system.

Re: control surfaces. Yes you have the idea. It's just a bunch of real controls that allow you control your software knobs and buttons. You will have to do some research to find out which one will work best with your software and your mixing style. Also make sure you can return it if it doesn't work in your setup or if you don't like the feel... some of them really feel cheap and crappy.

You can get a unit that is strictly a control surface and works in concert with your Motu box (any of them should work this way as long as they work with your software), or you could sell the Motu and get a control surface that includes an audio interface. The Motu is nice though, so no reason to ditch it.

To add to your options, some digital mixers have the capability to also control your software "knobs" just like a control surface if you set them up to do so.

Another benefit of the digital mixer approach is that these devices have their own processors which take some of the load off your computer. Your computer can record and play back the tracks, virtual instruments, and effects plugins, while the mixer handles the mixing and further processing. This means your computer can do more at once without running out of steam.

As you can see, there are many options out there and some of the functions of these devices overlap. I can't say it enough: when you get to this level of system complexity, make sure your purchases are returnable. A lot of this digital gear sounds ok does what it is supposed to, but is seriously lacking in immediacy, simplicity, and elegance. I find that this seriously impacts my ability to actually compose, record, and mix music. And that's the whole idea right?

[Bold Soul]

GrantB dropped the extreme science. I concur - and I've been through a lot of gear, on both the audio and film/video side.

graemlins/respekt.gif

[dennis f]

Keith....2 words...

Analog Board....


big baller mix engineers who mix in the box still use analog boards...some for the summing issues that GrantB explained and some for the overall warmth it gives digital recordings. This becomes even a greater issue as most soundcards that are in our affordable range are flawed beyond belief in the way they reproduce or record an actual analog signal. Sure they do the job but that's where that summing thing comes up and rears it ugly head. Hence Dangerous 2 bus.....which is great by the way...but if you have a quality analog board, proves to be a moot point. For the price of a new digital board you can come away with an amazing analog board that's available on the secondhand market. There is a definitive difference in quality and spatial effect of the signal...don't let anyone tell you any different. I've tried several cards and units and the only ones that cut the deal are Apogee Rosetta 800's with a Big Ben Wordclock added on or the Hd192's also clocked to a big ben. With this, people still wind up getting a Dangerous 2 bus or going through some other sort of analog console. I think digital is amazing...to a point...they still haven't got it right...and a lot of recordings that i hear today can't hold a candle to the way an Otari or Studer or Sony APR 2 inch sounds. Hence the tape saturation and emulation plug ins......they're kinda agreeing to the fact that it doesn't sound the same that's why they made those plug ins! Plus your digital mixer can't hold it's value as evident with the Mackie D8B which was once 10 grand 2 years ago and goes on ebay for 2.5k now...How many people are pissed about that? Yet go out an find a Soundcraft Ghost and people are still selling theirs from 4 to 6k! Hmmmmmmm.......something to make ya think.....


peace
dee

[DJ Keith Porter]

Originally posted by GrantB:
Re: formats. I'm just saying that for instance if I had bought one of the first generation digital boards that could only handle 16 bits at 48 kHz and then I started recording at 24 bits and 96 kHz on my computer, I would have to downgrade my audio quality (via bit and sample rate conversion in my computer or interface) in order to run it into my mixer. Also the physical interface format (AES/EBU, ADAT, TDIF) might cause some headaches if I got new a new converter/interface box and it didn't have the same sort of ports on it as my mixer. In practice, it's not that big a deal... you just have to look at all the parts as a whole system.

Re: control surfaces. Yes you have the idea. It's just a bunch of real controls that allow you control your software knobs and buttons. You will have to do some research to find out which one will work best with your software and your mixing style. Also make sure you can return it if it doesn't work in your setup or if you don't like the feel... some of them really feel cheap and crappy.

You can get a unit that is strictly a control surface and works in concert with your Motu box (any of them should work this way as long as they work with your software), or you could sell the Motu and get a control surface that includes an audio interface. The Motu is nice though, so no reason to ditch it.

To add to your options, some digital mixers have the capability to also control your software "knobs" just like a control surface if you set them up to do so.

Another benefit of the digital mixer approach is that these devices have their own processors which take some of the load off your computer. Your computer can record and play back the tracks, virtual instruments, and effects plugins, while the mixer handles the mixing and further processing. This means your computer can do more at once without running out of steam.

As you can see, there are many options out there and some of the functions of these devices overlap. I can't say it enough: when you get to this level of system complexity, make sure your purchases are returnable. A lot of this digital gear sounds ok does what it is supposed to, but is seriously lacking in immediacy, simplicity, and elegance. I find that this seriously impacts my ability to actually compose, record, and mix music. And that's the whole idea right? Thanks Grant.

What you wrote was very technical but I do understand.

I never new about Summing but now I do.

Digital is great in many aspects as you mentioned. If I'm going to need an analog board anyways I see no sence on getting any digital boards/controller.
Its good to preserve space but Im no millionar. I can't afford both.

I appreciate the fact that everytime I post in this section of the board you're well aware of the happs on gear and software!

Respect!

[DJ Keith Porter]

Originally posted by dennis f:
Keith....2 words...

Analog Board....


big baller mix engineers who mix in the box still use analog boards...some for the summing issues that GrantB explained and some for the overall warmth it gives digital recordings. This becomes even a greater issue as most soundcards that are in our affordable range are flawed beyond belief in the way they reproduce or record an actual analog signal. Sure they do the job but that's where that summing thing comes up and rears it ugly head. Hence Dangerous 2 bus.....which is great by the way...but if you have a quality analog board, proves to be a moot point. For the price of a new digital board you can come away with an amazing analog board that's available on the secondhand market. There is a definitive difference in quality and spatial effect of the signal...don't let anyone tell you any different. I've tried several cards and units and the only ones that cut the deal are Apogee Rosetta 800's with a Big Ben Wordclock added on or the Hd192's also clocked to a big ben. With this, people still wind up getting a Dangerous 2 bus or going through some other sort of analog console. I think digital is amazing...to a point...they still haven't got it right...and a lot of recordings that i hear today can't hold a candle to the way an Otari or Studer or Sony APR 2 inch sounds. Hence the tape saturation and emulation plug ins......they're kinda agreeing to the fact that it doesn't sound the same that's why they made those plug ins! Plus your digital mixer can't hold it's value as evident with the Mackie D8B which was once 10 grand 2 years ago and goes on ebay for 2.5k now...How many people are pissed about that? Yet go out an find a Soundcraft Ghost and people are still selling theirs from 4 to 6k! Hmmmmmmm.......something to make ya think.....


peace
dee Hey Dennis.

I hear yah loud and clear!
I just figured being that it was digital it would be somewhat the best quality but as you pointed out as I have noticed digital is great to a certain point.

I say this cause as I have notice for example (I hope no one reads this and get this twisted) the sound system that was in 6 Hubert street and the sound system at 20 w39th street.

6 Hubert street sound system was analog system and it sound and felt good. I mean the bas responce used to punch you into the chest!
I have heard a particular record at 6 Hubert street and heard the same rescord @ 20 w39th street on the hyped up digital system.

Five words:
KEEP ANALOG SYSTEMS IN CLUBS!

By saying this I can related to what you expressed. I may not have wrote it to clearly but I you can see that I know the difference in you aforementioned post.

Anyways I am looking for a analog board now and I'm just doing starting my research.

So can you give me some tip and features I should be concerned with on Analog boards?

Thanks in advance..
Your always on point Dee. graemlins/beerchug.gif

[DJ Keith Porter]

Originally posted by Danny Gardner XL:
GrantB dropped the extreme science. I concur - and I've been through a lot of gear, on both the audio and film/video side.

graemlins/respekt.gif Thanks Danny!
What up Mr. graemlins/cool_shades.gif

[Bold Soul]

Originally posted by DJ Keith Porter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner XL:
GrantB dropped the extreme science. I concur - and I've been through a lot of gear, on both the audio and film/video side.

graemlins/respekt.gif Thanks Danny!
What up Mr. graemlins/cool_shades.gif </font>[/QUOTE]'sup Keith. Keeping it quiet. Too many gorillas in the mist.

[DJ Keith Porter]

Originally posted by Danny Gardner XL:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DJ Keith Porter:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Danny Gardner XL:
GrantB dropped the extreme science. I concur - and I've been through a lot of gear, on both the audio and film/video side.

graemlins/respekt.gif Thanks Danny!
What up Mr. graemlins/cool_shades.gif </font>[/QUOTE]'sup Keith. Keeping it quiet. Too many gorillas in the mist. </font>[/QUOTE]I hear you on that one.
I hope all is well..

where is my miami video clips! :D

What type/brand mixer you working with or have worked with.
Give me some info/ tips etc.

graemlins/respekt.gif

[dennis f]

Hi Keith
apologies for the belated reply to your post...
You kinda definitely want something British...They're some old Allen & Heath Sabre's which have become affordable...you can find them in the 2k to 4k range(they were once in the high teens)...some of the older Soundtrac boards were pretty good also. Definitely take a look into a Soundcraft Ghost...You want some chunk to your digital mixes? Then go British. Plain and simple. I've heard somewhere that all other boards sound different because of some licensing issues with the way the british eq's are made. Hence why Japanese boards can't hold a candle to them. Don't know if that's true...but it came from a pretty reputable source and could possibly explain the difference.

hope this helps
peace
dee!

[O'love]

soundtracs topaz and tascam m3500 are nice analogue and affordable mixers...

Olaf

[ April 27, 2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: O'love ]

[anfernee]

Originally posted by dennis f:
Keith....2 words...

Analog Board....

Excuse my ignorance... But I am assuming that Keith is going to be burning his beats to CD so that he can play them over his main system (rather than a flat response monitoring system), now obviously the burn process is digitial.

Is the warmth that you would have gained from using the analogue board no longer an issue as the CD sample rate and error correction loses the warmth ?

A

[jsd540]

Guys thanks for sharing this info hail.gif

I had no idea that the summing was so inferior in a workstation, up to this point I thought I needed more dynamic range from my card ( I use a darla and I think its 108 db dynamic range).

Great thread btw.

Just out of curiosity would any of you return to 2" tape and fully anolog systems if given the chance ?

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