Is there anyone who records music without a sequencer?

[Shannon]

For example play/write live music and just record it onto digital and analog format. Most of the topics seem to eliminate the musicianship of playing a rhythm verses using software/hardware as the foundation of sequencing a song...

I think jamming or live sessions create a bond within music that sometimes doesn't get conveyed with loops and samples. There's this stretching out that happens in the studio when the drummer does a drum roll and the keyboardist then follows it with their interpretation. Then the bassist follows. A vocalist then screams or follow suits as well. Theres a natural call and response between the musicians/vocalist that happen.

I think thats why majority of samples are/were taken from those times verses now. The music and sessions it self was a classic recording..

Sometimes it only takes talent to make a great song. Not perfection of a beat, tempo, sound and editing software.

[däp]

i'm listening...

[Brian]

well using a sequencer doesn't necessarily mean you didn't play the parts live.

i program my drums but then play my parts in live one by one and record them as midi parts. sometimes i fine tune the midi if i wasn't able to nail a certain part the way i want, but a lot of the times i leave those parts just as i played them in. it depends on the sound i'm looking for though, sometimes a more rigid sequenced sound is what i'm looking for. i do use some "real" instruments on occasion as well so those are of course played live.

one thing that prevents a lot of people from doing what you described, shannon, is that it's difficult to get a group of like-minded musicians together who are also good enough to jam together and create something meaningful.

[ December 29, 2003, 02:47 PM: Message edited by: Brian ]

[Mocambo]

A friend told me once: "Some musicians' time cost REAL money! Something I REALLY wish I had more of!"

The brother for a long time, had nothing but a sampler and a drum machine. He would make his tracks for the emcees/rappers around the way. Saving up the money, until............He was able to pay for the musicians. Now, my man has many recorded jam sessions along with half midi/live sessions. He's also a alto sax and Suitcase Rhodes cat.

For some people, these tools are just a stepping stone until the real deal. For some others that is where they are at.

Alot of cats whom records I buy started the same way.

[ December 29, 2003, 04:31 PM: Message edited by: Silhouette ]

[Shannon]

"well using a sequencer doesn't necessarily mean you didn't play the parts live.

i program my drums but then play my parts in live one by one and record them as midi parts. "

See Brian, you are saying programming and I am saying playing LIVE all at once and recording the turnout. What you are doing is more of a preplanned approached to recording than getting a session in one LIVE take. (I have done what you are saying alot) Even recording one by one all live instruments isn't as good as a turn out (sometimes) as a true studio all at once recording session. If you had a drummer and others that played along all at once the recording would take the personality of every moment of the recording. Mood swings and stretching out would become a natural reaction to the energy and chemistry in the room at that moment.


"I do use some "real" instruments on occasion as well so those are of course played live."

The use of live instrumnetation even if it is electronic collectively with others I think is the direction I am heading. Midi has aided a producer in replacing musicians but has it necessarily enhanced the music over the years. Kraftwork and others still played there machines. Once you add a pre-programmed kick or anything else by that means you have limited your tempo, total song movement and expression to keep time with it not the feeling and emotion generated from the session itself. For instance the session may have started out house and could of went into some jazz fusion or etc. But since the kick was added to play on top of you predicted the direction of the song beforehand. (most people are ok with that and thats cool also) Even if you went back and did different drum patterns pre-prorammed in a sequence it's still the same result. You already limited the session beforehand.

"one thing that prevents a lot of people from doing what you described, shannon, is that it's difficult to get a group of like-minded musicians together who are also good enough to jam together and create something meaningful."

True but not true in some cases. Before software was shared so freely and burned people had to learn how to work hardware and buy it. Now so many people are becoming "producers" because of a freely available software for home pc's that they are not focused on what music was originally founded upon. No society since the beginning of time have use music the way we have. Music is a thing that Musicians created. Not a software buff or computer geek. Music can be created by anyone who becomes dedicated to it. Now with all these edit and correction programs people don't have to know how to sing ,play, or want to participate in a collective session. I think it is more of a complacent thing and whats easy... And most cases it's not about the studio vibe but just making tracks..

If you want musicians they are out there... Patience and talent is something that takes time to find. It can't be bought in a program. I think personally that expereince is something a producer should experience. Especially since we can get a really decent sounding recording digitally now from home.


Whats up Torin!! I like your jam. Jo de Presser played it on our show.. Nice work... May you should try to get a live performance of the tune with Mr. Ali.... That would be nice...

[Shannon]

I feel you Silhouette! Thats apart of becoming the music. You should want to create it from scratch one day. Hopefully more people will be called upon to do it...

[Brian]

Ok Shannon I guess I misunderstood you a bit.

That's cool you're in a position to do things with a group like that. I'd love to have a group of people I could create music with, but that hasn't worked out for me yet. I still think the preplanned approach has just as many merits as the live approach, but I'd love to have the option of doing it the live way when I want.

I know what you're getting at about the software thing, but I don't look at it the same way you do. A lack of talent is a lack of talent and I don't really think software can effectively cover up for that .. for example it doesn't sound like you've been fooled by such things?

[ December 29, 2003, 09:10 PM: Message edited by: Brian ]

[Shannon]

Yes Brian, I haven't been fooled by the software but what about the millions of others who see it as talent. If people weren't convinced that it was a talent to work software then they would learn to play an instrument or go back to the roots of working with musicians. Name one "producer" that doesn't see a talent in working fruity loops..

I think to further the music with technology you will have to adventually return to the source. Thats why people are sampling old recordings and holding on to the essence of those sessions verses this pumped out recycled material of today.

Loops, samples and midi musicianship has been around for quite sometime. What new progression have we seen in music. Herbie, Stevie, Shuggie Otis was doing this in the 70's.. Even the pioneers of house music in 80's along with european groups.

I see progress in people like IG Culture, Kadi and the whole broken beat movement. Thats true technological fusion with musicianship and innovation with a futuristic approach.

It seems most of the times technology has set things back in which we should have moved forward in new directions. Getting a great digital surround sound recording of A-typical music standard recording is not the totality of what we should be doing with the technology.

Image if Sun Ra, Coltrane, Hendrix and others had what we have... Do you think it would of enhanced there music or hendered there artform?

Brian, if you are seeking people to vibe with put the energy into it and it will happen. I agree it takes time but it's it worth it? Keep on doing the sessions and believe that there are people like you looking for to do what you are doing to.. Trust me you will be surprise..

[Shannon]

Also Brian, I remember a friend telling me that Logic has this thing where u can share files and a person could over dub there part and send it back to you. I think this is going to make colaborations more possible and spark jam sessions that were impossible to come by if used correctly.....

[Brian]

yes Shannon i share my project files with a friend and we do collaborations that way (as we live too far apart to do them together regularly).

i don't really agree with your perspective on technology and its effect on music but i can see where you're coming from.

[Shannon]

Please explain what you don't agree with Brian. Technology is here to aid not eliminate. I see a lot of elimination not brought on by technology itself but people who see it as a easy way to eliminate things... Am I missing something here?

[Brian]

Shannon I could probably write an essay on it and I just don't have the time to explain my view properly.

Suffice to say (I guess) that when I think of the music I love the most, just as much obviously sequenced/programmed music comes to mind as does music that was created in a "live" session. I really love dancehall reggae for example, and it wouldn't be where it is today were it not for technology.

[Shannon]

So are you referring to dancehall or reggae? Also live or recorded? Meaning a stage performances verses listening to a CD?

Beats or roots reggae?

[ December 30, 2003, 03:48 PM: Message edited by: Shannon ]

[Brian]

I'm referring to the music on record. Bounty Killer, Sizzla, Capleton, etc. and rhythms by guys like Lenky, Dave kelly, etc. It usually sounds terrible at the live shows when they play the rhythms with a band.

[Shannon]

Ok I understand you.. Like Socca music too. Some of it has the driving grooves of beat machines that make the track a gritty dance tune.

Bob Marley was able to incorporate some nice beat machine rhythms into his music that a lot of people slept on also.

My only defense to this is that most of dancehall music albums are redundant sounding. Including Socca albums. Both are great musical forms but when all you hear is that same pattern and vocalist format it becomes a dud in a while. Bob's stuff sounds fresh threw a whole album. But thats a personal opinion.

I've been to dance hall events and several artist used the same beat and rhythm so for 1 hour the same tune was playing with different vocalist on top.

[ December 30, 2003, 04:03 PM: Message edited by: Shannon ]

[King Vitamin]

For example play/write live music and just record it onto digital and analog format. Most of the topics seem to eliminate the musicianship of playing a rhythm verses using software/hardware as the foundation of sequencing a song...
I think jamming or live sessions create a bond within music that sometimes doesn't get conveyed with loops and samples. There's this stretching out that happens in the studio when the drummer does a drum roll and the keyboardist then follows it with their interpretation. Then the bassist follows. A vocalist then screams or follow suits as well. Theres a natural call and response between the musicians/vocalist that happen.
I think thats why majority of samples are/were taken from those times verses now. The music and sessions it self was a classic recording..
Sometimes it only takes talent to make a great song. Not perfection of a beat, tempo, sound and editing software.hey shannon,
first of all, happy new year
i'm late to the topic, i haven't checked the forum in awhile, and thanks for responding to mine.

our setup is extremely basic with the exception of the pc which is running an editor and a few soft synths. sometimes we start off real minimal due to cats showing up late, so we start with a programmed drum track, a live drummer(minus the kick), and a keyboard-and just jam for 10-15 minutes. we take that and produce an interesting loop or lets say "edit" and use that for when everyone else shows up with whatever instrument they decide to bring and from there it;s absolute heaven because you just capture moments that could have been produced no other way or with a single producer(no matter how talented or gifted) because you and the other musicians have gone deep as hell in a cosmic type of fashion. i'm sure you know what that means.

as far as recording, its all sent into either a digital recorder or a pc-usually a pc, and thats it. sometimes the session was so good on a particular track that its not edited so much, and other times it's chopped up and changed completely, ya just have to contstruct a song really, make an intro, verse, build ups, etc

some people say that music doesn't sound like it used to, i think it's because people stopped making music with a group of people, thats where the real soul lies.

peace

[Shannon]

Sorry for the late response King. I agree with your statement regarding the participation of people all together during a recording session. There's no way to recreate that chemistry and I think every should atleast try it one time in there life. The expereince is like no other. Thanks for sharing...

[eileen]

i think that the live feeling can happen with sequencers and drum programming if those things are used as instruments on the fly, vs. just playback like a pre-recording.

for example, a drummer can trigger a loop or sample on an electronic pad. or you can link up multiple drum machines and trigger patterns live.

we've got examples of all this type of stuff coming out on a compilation cd of live house, by the way*. i don't have the links up yet on our website, but here are a couple of examples:

www.playgroundmuzik.com (http://www.playgroundmuzik.com)
www.soulminerecords.com/jaswho.htm (http://www.soulminerecords.com/jaswho.htm)


*shameless plug... smile.gif

[Shannon]

Eileen I agree with your statement about drums being played live that are electronic samples (hit hats, kick, snare, open/close cymbals and etc). What I am getting at is the whole band there live doing things on the fly. No preprogrammed beats, kicks, metronome and etc. A sequencer has to be programmed and loops are pre-programmed. So as soon as you layed down a sequenced pattern you lost the "every one has to rely on one anothers energy and instinct" feel to the music because you limited the song to "play this 2 bars and repeat and then play this 4 bars and repeat". Then each sequence doesn't differ in tonality, energy, dynamics and etc like play things live. For instance a bassist can play the same pattern 12 times and it won't be exactly the same.

If you study majority of the music now even live recordings are starting to sound like sequencers... Loops and grooves with no tempo changes, breaks, intros , outro's, textures and etc...


I will look forward to your music on your website. Thanks for sharing.

[eileen]

you would definitely like playground then. it's all improvised on the spot, a continuous mix with 4 live players. but what's different than what you're describing is not that the drums are broken down to the isolated kik/hat/snare/etc., the drums are created by hand in advance as patterns, so they can be layered, switched, enhanced by triggering on the fly, etc., and even the tempo can be changed. i've seen them do sets which start out sounding like trip-hop grooves and end up at about 130bpm.

maybe it's because of computers that a lot of people don't work drum machines the way they used to 'back in the day'. now everything can be cut-and-pasted so it sounds flawless. seems like there are few people who can work a drum machine in a live performance or recording situation and keep things precise but also with real flavor like a live drummer.

have you heard hesohi? he is another total master of this. you should check out hesohi 'live from the fillmore' on imperial dub recordings.

[Shannon]

I will check out the hesohi joint. I haven't bought anything on that label in ages but I remember them doing all there beats and programming in real time. Thanks for sharing.

[Mah'chew]

I find what Shannon's saying as very similar to the ethos and techniques of Arthur Russell when recording - his sessions with his group in Loose Joints mood recorded on the fly.

Aparently there's loads of cuts that we haven't heard by Loose Joints from hours of jamming sessions..

Nice if you have the musicians and studio time smile.gif

[boyramos]

hello!

sorry for the late reply but i just got my application to this board approved.

one of the qualities of sequenced music that makes it feel "cold" is quantization.

i believe it is still possible to compose sequenced music with a human touch. It is most often than not that in the end, us humans control the software...

i would have to agree on your point that no matter what software or tools we use, its still talent and creativity that is behind music. Tools are there to improve and enhance our creativity, but not a necessary evil. Im into house and electronica and I sometimes comeout with sounds and patches that are out of this world that is quite moving.. as regard to how i would have come up with it acoustically?.. iwouldnt know..maybe slap a velociraptor in its cheek and record with a EMG mic on reverb or distortion..anyways just my 2 cents...

I tried recording with some artists live, and each track would have its own *.wav file so i could mix them and fool around with the effects on the final mix

boyramos
ixiz

[O'love]

true, pressing shorcut Q's to quantise a just recorded part is so tempting sometimes..... i often use some tricks to get a live feel:

- push or pull a track in time...to make it sit tight..use your ears until it "works"...

- use a "groove-grid" from a live recorded loop, and apply this to your own sequence....

- use procentual quantise...so only 15% or something..to push the notes a little into the grid..but not very tight..

use your ears is rule number one..

Olaf

[Digiman]

I enjoy recording classical guitar into pro-tools, putting a bit of reverb and compression on the guitar and burning it onto a CD, relatives love that kind of thing! Give them a CD of your latest house track though and they usually don't thank you!

[<smooth operator>]

There is a sense of peace and connection that is created among musicians when just sitting around plucking and blowing, once things get in sync. At the same time, there is peace when a solo artist is free to flow and let go everything he/she is feeling. I think both have their place. At the end of the day, as a listener, I get the same feeling coming at me when I hear a...say an old Grover Washington record as I do when I go out, shut my eyes and dance to some proper house or techno music.