TREVOR NELSON SUCKS - Soul Nation Part 3 on UK TV and the fcuk'd scene in UK - Soul ?

[mr startist]

Originally posted by Bran W:

Startist, you don't seem to understand. From this thread we now understand that everything began in Birmingham and Nottingham, maybe Walsall has an impact too but certainly not Africa as originally thought. The illusion that London ever had a dance music scene is merely that, an illusion. [/QUOTE]

Now I understand!! Sorry I'm abit slow. This is what Martin Red meant when he quoted "BABYLON IS FALLING" he's talking about London right?

Bran I'll start the chant, then you follow

Handsworth Revolution
Handsworth Revolution
Handsworth Revolution
Revo-Revo- Revolution

[Jolyon]

Here's my two pennies on this:

It's Trevor Nelson's personal take on soul in the UK...in other words his opinion on what was good. It's not supposed to be a definitive history.

The programme would not have been commissioned with Trevor Nelson as presenter. That's TV for you...

UK Garage/Drum and Bass - on the whole I don't like it. There have been a few tracks from each genre that I have liked, but overall I'm not into those beats. I find D&B either too angry or too noodly, with a few exceptions. Just not my bag. UK Garage is not my bad either, at all.

UK Garage/D&B - can't be just dismissed as drug music or anything else. Both are valid forms of music, with roots. Both are popular with thousands of people, who love those forms of music as much as we love disco/house/whatever. Just because you don't like them, you shouldn't just say - it's rubbish drug music etc. IMHO.

Guess what working class young kids are listening to? It's not deep soulful house, i can tell you that. It's RnB, it's DnB, it's UK Garage, it's hip hop - mostly. Go to council estates in London and that's all you'll hear from young kids bedroom windows. Go up North and you'll hear white working class kids listening to UK garage and harsh Drum and Bass.

So Solid Crew are a minor Sex Pistols of their day. I don't like their music and think some of them are wankers. But they have a passion and are exciting and deserve respect. They are from the ghetto - I know cos I used to work in an office next to that estate...it's rough. They cause controversy and we need more controversy in British pop music. SSC are a pop band.

The North and the South have both contributed to dance music in this country, equally in my opinion. Drum and Bass comes from all over - it's roots are reggae, hardcore techno (ever heard 'Destroyer' by Senses? (Belgian) Or 'What Evil Lurks' by The Prodigy? (Essex) or anything by the Ragga Twins? (Manchester).

I think soulful house is really, really boring and people take it too seriously sometimes. Too much chin stroking too often.

Phew...

J

[imported_Gman]

Yes, interesting reading. Please continue the dialog without the personal attacks.

-G

[Bran (Bad attitude and from London)]

Originally posted by mr startist:
Martin do YOU have anything to say or are you just going to quote others?

I hear he can cut n paste but does he know that Grooverider made D&B tracks on an EMU6400? I think Groove and the rest of them were all born in Sheffield though, sons of coal miners and publicans.

[Bran (Bad attitude and from London)]

Originally posted by Gman:
Yes, interesting reading. Please continue the dialog without the personal attacks.

-G

We are trying but some of us, as you know, do need to added simple sarcasm in order to engage in this kind of speak. I will refrain from attacking and continue by proving.

[matthew]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
Here's my two pennies on this:

It's Trevor Nelson's personal take on soul in the UK...in other words his opinion on what was good. It's not supposed to be a definitive history.

The programme would not have been commissioned with Trevor Nelson as presenter. That's TV for you...

UK Garage/Drum and Bass - on the whole I don't like it. There have been a few tracks from each genre that I have liked, but overall I'm not into those beats. I find D&B either too angry or too noodly, with a few exceptions. Just not my bag. UK Garage is not my bad either, at all.

UK Garage/D&B - can't be just dismissed as drug music or anything else. Both are valid forms of music, with roots. Both are popular with thousands of people, who love those forms of music as much as we love disco/house/whatever. Just because you don't like them, you shouldn't just say - it's rubbish drug music etc. IMHO.

Guess what working class young kids are listening to? It's not deep soulful house, i can tell you that. It's RnB, it's DnB, it's UK Garage, it's hip hop - mostly. Go to council estates in London and that's all you'll hear from young kids bedroom windows. Go up North and you'll hear white working class kids listening to UK garage and harsh Drum and Bass.

So Solid Crew are a minor Sex Pistols of their day. I don't like their music and think some of them are wankers. But they have a passion and are exciting and deserve respect. They are from the ghetto - I know cos I used to work in an office next to that estate...it's rough. They cause controversy and we need more controversy in British pop music. SSC are a pop band.

The North and the South have both contributed to dance music in this country, equally in my opinion. Drum and Bass comes from all over - it's roots are reggae, hardcore techno (ever heard 'Destroyer' by Senses? (Belgian) Or 'What Evil Lurks' by The Prodigy? (Essex) or anything by the Ragga Twins? (Manchester).

I think soulful house is really, really boring and people take it too seriously sometimes. Too much chin stroking too often.

Phew...

J

not that there's anything wrong with a bit of chin stroking of course. *goes back to cross-indexing 1975 10" singles*

[mr startist]

[quote]Originally posted by Bran W:

I think Groove and the rest of them were all born in Sheffield though, sons of coal miners and publicans.

This was in Handsworth version of OK magazine?

[mr startist]

Jolyon, well said!!

[Bran (Bad attitude and from London)]

"Guess what working class young kids are listening to? It's not deep soulful house, i can tell you that. It's RnB, it's DnB, it's UK Garage, it's hip hop - mostly. Go to council estates in London and that's all you'll hear from young kids bedroom windows. Go up North and you'll hear white working class kids listening to UK garage and harsh Drum and Bass. "

This for the majority is certainly true. However I also agree a lot with the comments made by some as to the age old idea that there is 'too much talk' and 'less action' by people hence a dying scene in some areas. 'House' music in whatever form you see it but especialyl deep house or soulful house had remained practically the same for many years, I know that growing up in London a lot of us were excited by fast moving sounds and scene's and to be surrounded by energy, we had very short attention spans. I personally always liked 'House' music but back then, late 80's early 90's it too was evolving and changing at a faster pace. As other genres developed then in my youth I would change my listening and following habits on a fairly regular basis. I don't think its fair to say that I knew many people who just like house, always did and still do.

Find a group of 18yr old's who like deep house and you are doing well. There is little exposure of this kind of sound. People's attitudes are often very wrong. The 'You don't know about house music son' attitude is utter bullshit. If people don't know and no-one will give them the time of day because of it then don't expect these kids to be bothered about finding out about it.

We put on parties, personally I couldn't give a f##k if not one induzzzstry person turned up. We put on parties for people to come and dance, simple, you come as you are whether you know what it is you are dancing too or not. London, like any major city is a hard place to compete simply due to the amount of competition and the general attitude as mentioned surrounding the scene. Lack of talent and commitment is another issue but don't get me started on that.

[Jolyon]

Bran.

Well said.

[danny webb]

OK I'm gonna pitch in here, now the battle has subsided somewhat.
Bran, props for mentioning Jungle Techno, a phrase so uncool it is long forgottewn, however this is where I first heard the stuff, alongside Beltram, all the Belgian stuff etc etc.
Then it (jungle) descended into a complete nonsense in my eyes, I remember the night well when Groovrider came to play at Hippo's, what a dreadful point in music' history that was, Fantazia or some such shit, and really this was drug music to the 'Max', even I was still heavily abusing drugs then, and this shit was undanceable, this is probably 93. At this point all the energy had gone, none of thew Ragga influence was still there, the Ragga Twins were not as prominent as they should have been, that end of Jungle was always Ruff.
To me D&B lost ****ing everything in 93, until Bukem & that lot came back around in 95/96ish (not too sure on that???), it was all a harder/faster sound, which had already been done imho. Then after all the intelligent stuff (some of which was as musical as you could wish for), comes UKG, or two step or whatever, which in my eyes is closer to the original vibe of Jungle techno (Ragga/reggae influenced), and that is something, I am not completely convinced it has anything more to offer than the original stuff, however it has opened a couple of eyes & ears.

IMHO UKG is not revolutionary, just a slightly more musical approach to a sound that had gotten as hard n fast as it could.
Jungle had it's day 90-93 and then went shit (majoritively), came back in 95/96, and was better, then died and reinvented itself using the original vibe, shame they picked up gun culture along the way, the ragga Twins sang about spliffs, So Solid sing about Gats, sign o' the times...

[Al Kent]

Originally posted by ladyboygrimsby:
'Soulful' house fans are the new northern soulies: 45-year-old blokes with pot bellies and moustaches. Discuss.

I've not got a pot belly. Oh, I'm not 45 either. Hey - I've not got a moustache, well, I have, but it's attached to my beard.

But I agree in principal, just had the same discussion with my girl this morning.

[Al Kent]

What a great thread. I've hardly been on DHP for a couple of weeks so this certainly makes up for it...

I'm just as outraged at the programme as Martin is, although I didn't watch it. I don't know anything about UK Garage, or Two step, or Blazin' Squad, and have never frequented any of the clubs mentioned. Therefore the programme was wrong and they're all twats. All of 'em. And everyone from London is a twat too, because you were born where you were born.

[jimmymack-2000]

I find the following interesting:

1) I always thought it was the U.K. way to dress up--even football casuals are wearing $500 Stone Island jackets to go fight cops...

2) If you read around the board, labels and status in general were very much a part of the early house scene. Chicago people talk about wearing Armani t-shirts, cologne, Capezio shoes, etc. to shows...

3) Another thread started by a U.S. poster was a call for people to stop dressing like slobs at house events, and start wearing nice clothes.

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Gman:
Yes, interesting reading. Please continue the dialog without the personal attacks.

-G

I think I managed OK so far, especially since I seem to be a vast minority, it's easier to quote then get turned and twisted and misread by Brian and Startish

Startish - the name explains alot....

Oh thanks Ma'chew, two northerners battling against So Solid crew (30+ London crew)


This is interesting G. Extract from REGGAE - The Story of Jamaican Music,

Steel Pulses - David Hinds


"‘There was a serious identity crisis happening in Handsworth, where we were from, and in various black communities throughout England at the time. Our parents’ ideologies stem from a lot of Victorian standards, which came from their parents, who were born at the turn of the century, because that was the way it was in Jamaica. Our parents were running away from jamaica, trying to start a new life in England, but still adhered to a lot of the old-fashioned ways that they were taught to them buy their parents. But we’re in a new
country where there was a new approach to lfe as far as we were concerned - many of us had never had that Jamaican experience - so there were a lot of clashes as far as what was considered best for us.

‘We needed to learn about ourselves as black people, and we
definitely weren’t learning it at school, but we found what we were looking for in the music. We played a lot of Bob Marley songs, The Abyssinians, Burning Spear...a lot of Burning Spear because he uttered the words of Marcus Garvey and a lot of educational stuff. As a result, we got ourselves together and thought it was necessary to air our views through the music.

‘We had a lot to say too, because as we found ourselves as people, we felt it was important to document what was happening to us. As we got older in Handsworth there was always this racial thing hovering over our heads and we had to be always on guard when we go on the streets. The police was always giving trouble, then we found a lot of problems
having jobs, although we’d had the education. It was an uphill
struggle, but we couldn’t explain to our parents what we were about living in England, so to do it in music was our best outlet.

‘Our track, Ku Klux Klan, that particular subject was in the papers at the time, as there was talk of the Grand Wizard coming over here to influence the head of the National Front. My imagination just got the better of me and I started imagining white extremists on the streets of Handsworth. The title track of the album Handsworth Revolution was because of the political climate in England, especially in the black communities, and with the first riot taking place in St Pauls in Bristol it was only a matter of time before all the black communities would be going up in flames. Blues Dance Raid was about having house parties in our community because we weren’t made to feel welcome in the city centre, so this was the only chance the West Indian community had to rave. But neighbours would be calling the police saying the music is too loud or we got some scary-looking people walking on the streets...whatever reasons. Then the police would come and try to close the place down and they particularly didn’t care how they did it. And it was important to us to call the album Handsworth Revolution "

[JoeB]

Originally posted by Bran W:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ladyboygrimsby:
'Soulful' house fans are the new northern soulies: 45-year-old blokes with pot bellies and moustaches. Discuss.

An interesting angle but i fear too much controversy and differing thoughts may leave Martin Red to explode with rage. </font>[/QUOTE]HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAAH

(you guys are definitely dropping some great points to counter martin red's rants.)

[Jolyon]

Originally posted by Al Kent:
What a great thread. I've hardly been on DHP for a couple of weeks so this certainly makes up for it...

I'm just as outraged at the programme as Martin is, although I didn't watch it. I don't know anything about UK Garage, or Two step, or Blazin' Squad, and have never frequented any of the clubs mentioned. Therefore the programme was wrong and they're all twats. All of 'em. And everyone from London is a twat too, because you were born where you were born.

LOL! Bloody sweaties...

Joking aside...I can never understand people who attack Londoners and London. A large part of the city is made up of people migrating in from other parts of Britain/The World. I can't think of a single friend of mine in London who was actually born here.

[matthew]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Al Kent:
What a great thread. I've hardly been on DHP for a couple of weeks so this certainly makes up for it...

I'm just as outraged at the programme as Martin is, although I didn't watch it. I don't know anything about UK Garage, or Two step, or Blazin' Squad, and have never frequented any of the clubs mentioned. Therefore the programme was wrong and they're all twats. All of 'em. And everyone from London is a twat too, because you were born where you were born.

LOL! Bloody sweaties...

Joking aside...I can never understand people who attack Londoners and London. A large part of the city is made up of people migrating in from other parts of Britain/The World. I can't think of a single friend of mine in London who was actually born here. </font>[/QUOTE]since medieval times the capital has been subject to inconsequential attacks from the northern barbarian hordes. Let us petition our MPs to buid the Great Wall Of Watford forthwith...

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by Jolyon:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Al Kent:
What a great thread. I've hardly been on DHP for a couple of weeks so this certainly makes up for it...

I'm just as outraged at the programme as Martin is, although I didn't watch it. I don't know anything about UK Garage, or Two step, or Blazin' Squad, and have never frequented any of the clubs mentioned. Therefore the programme was wrong and they're all twats. All of 'em. And everyone from London is a twat too, because you were born where you were born.

LOL! Bloody sweaties...

Joking aside...I can never understand people who attack Londoners and London. A large part of the city is made up of people migrating in from other parts of Britain/The World. I can't think of a single friend of mine in London who was actually born here. </font>[/QUOTE]Page 1

[mr startist]

Martin are you ready to admit you were wrong or do we have to read more of the Daily Mail's amazing extracts of Northern Reggae?

[danny webb]

Just once:

Birmingham is called the Midlands.

[Martin Red]

Originally posted by mr startist:
Martin are you ready to admit you were wrong or do we have to read more of the Daily Mail's amazing extracts of Northern Reggae?

Wrong about what, Jungle being mostly shit ?

No !, that's my opinion through watching the cack rave scene mutate, through my own eyes.

Wrong about what exactly ?

[Bran (Bad attitude and from London)]

I must admit that I find it hard to read Martin Red's posts due to the large amount of cutting and pasting going on, hugely lenghty text on a message board and the random injection of recycled sarcasm. I was going to say this may the trait of the lower class northern attitude but as we aren't allowed public attacks here I wont.

I notice a lot of UK people on the board from time to time but they do not speak up on this particular thread, I hope we are not causing a rumble in this little family here when the trust about someone simply getting a lot of facts wrong (hence having to cut n past other peoples words) and having somewhat jaded views on certain things is proved somewhat miss-guided.

I'm still laughing at some of the comments on Drum and Bass. Broken Beat (call it what you want) 'could' be the next most exciting movent a la 'house' music to come out of the UK or will I be disproved and find it was really discovered in Turkey? Some of the production from people like Bugs and Phil Asher is tight. Anyone heard Phil's 'Chaos in the Boardroom' track. Those drums are sick.

[Jolyon]

Bran - hmmm...broken beat...not sure I agree on it being a big thing.

Are you a fan of Mark Pritchard? Have you heard his remix of an Azymuth track a couple of years back...excellent.

[AudioExpression]

Take youre ass out and see Jeremy newall in London or go watch CJ macointosh or Ralph Lawson.[/QB]

check Jeremy Newall out this weekend