"affluent" = "not really rich" in the new Richistan

[dj-chefron]

Now Doug may I call you Doug I'm not arguing for handouts but when the rich don't pay their fair share we all suffer.On the North Shore in the Chicago area they spend over $25.000 a year per child,now if you was unlucky enough to be born in DuSable school district or Englewood the cost per child is under $6000 now who has the leg up to succeed?How many 100ft yachts does one need when 47million of us do not have health insurance I am able to provide for my family right now and we are happy with what we have Thank God but how many of us have to go to bed hungry everynight before we recognized that somethings wrong.I dont know the solution but I do know that we are headed down the wrong path.

[Doug]

Now Doug may I call you Doug I'm not arguing for handouts but when the rich don't pay their fair share we all suffer.On the North Shore in the Chicago area they spend over $25.000 a year per child,now if you was unlucky enough to be born in DuSable school district or Englewood the cost per child is under $6000 now who has the leg up to succeed?How many 100ft yachts does one need when 47million of us do not have health insurance I am able to provide for my family right now and we are happy with what we have Thank God but how many of us have to go to bed hungry everynight before we recognized that somethings wrong.I dont know the solution but I do know that we are headed down the wrong path.

Fair points. And yes, you may call me Doug. I think mhd said it best: if you want the wealth class to GIVE to the poor class, then its gonna be on their terms. That's the bottom line.

IMHO, there two viable ways to address the issues you've identified: (1) change local, state, or federal tax code; or (2) encourage people in poor school districts to take advantage of currently existing resources that will help them "move up and move out."

I'm not unsympathetic to those who are less fortunate, but at some point even the less fortunate have to examine themselves and see what they can do to get a bigger share of the pie. Those expressing the most concern for their plight should be on the frontlines helping them out. I've been there and it ain't easy.

[mhd]

Now Doug may I call you Doug I'm not arguing for handouts but when the rich don't pay their fair share we all suffer.On the North Shore in the Chicago area they spend over $25.000 a year per child,now if you was unlucky enough to be born in DuSable school district or Englewood the cost per child is under $6000 now who has the leg up to succeed?How many 100ft yachts does one need when 47million of us do not have health insurance I am able to provide for my family right now and we are happy with what we have Thank God but how many of us have to go to bed hungry everynight before we recognized that somethings wrong.I dont know the solution but I do know that we are headed down the wrong path.

source?

[dj-chefron]

My source is the Illinois State Bd. of Education web page under funding for school districts.

[DeesKo]

Now Doug may I call you Doug I'm not arguing for handouts but when the rich don't pay their fair share we all suffer.On the North Shore in the Chicago area they spend over $25.000 a year per child,now if you was unlucky enough to be born in DuSable school district or Englewood the cost per child is under $6000 now who has the leg up to succeed?How many 100ft yachts does one need when 47million of us do not have health insurance I am able to provide for my family right now and we are happy with what we have Thank God but how many of us have to go to bed hungry everynight before we recognized that somethings wrong.I dont know the solution but I do know that we are headed down the wrong path.

Here's the ironic part of this comment.....

[QB]....when the rich don't pay their fair share, we all suffer....

[/qb]


Now, I'm not sure about Illinois, but I know in Va, the budget for public education is funded by an OVERWHELMING amount via local taxation. In my county in Va, the school budget, including the amount paid per pupil, is based on things like property taxes etc. That tax rate is set by the county board and is based on what the residents of that county are willing to put up with... considering the constant drone of complaints about taxes on the rise. It's a balancing act.

You live in a $350k house in my county, you're paying about $3500 a year in property taxes on that house, among the other various taxes that are local based. That's where that funding comes from and it doesn't get spread from county to county or from district to district. If you did that, you'd have person A complaining about paying higher taxes to support functions in county B and that isn't going to fly. Especially considering the disparities in income levels etc.

To sum it up, you can't use school funding as part of your arguement on the rich not paying their part because in all actuality, as your numbers show, they're actually probably paying MORE than you or your peer in that other district for the simple fact that they're living in a much larger house and paying much larger taxes on that property, which results in a larger school budget, which results in more spending per pupil.

Now, before you jump the gun and say that they should end that by setting a statewide average and distributing it equally, acknowledge that this would be akin to the state LOWERING the amount that rich person pays a month and RAISING what you currently pay for this specific type of tax.

In all reality, yes, rich people have ways of manuevering their cashflow to minimize taxes, but by and large, they are still paying in more than you are every month, every year, etc. The age old mantra that the rich don't pay taxes and are therefore not pulling their own weight is OFTEN TIMES something built as much in folklore as it is in truth.

On a side note, you referenced Haliburton stock earlier, and aside from the incorrect assertion that "we" were locked out of enjoying that bit of fortune (we were not, you could have bought Haliburton low and sold high just like anyone else)... I don't think your numbers were correct either.

Furthermore, I would like to see proof that Rupert Murdoch's FOX news didn't pay any income taxes last year. Please provide a source for that, as that is extremely interesting to hear and I'd like to have more info on that.



As for my earlier comments.... the pinnacle of a "fit" nation would be one with the highest number of people able to successfully support themselves and provide these basic things to their families with little to no required support or assistance by any government source.

If you're entire populace is able to do for self, man...... oh man.... shit would be FABULOUS.

Not the other way around.

While I agree that there are some fundamental changes needed in order to develop and mature our youth in such a way that they CAN achieve this, providing basic services that are easily attainable via government programs is not the way to do it. It breeds generation after generation of person relegated to relying on the government....

... and as I type that last sentence something clicked in my head....


Damn... isn't that what the government would actually WANT? The more people that are reliant on it, the stronger the self-preservation. Once the government has a monopoly on providing basic needs, shit... we're done.

The revolution has been diverted because I'm too reliant on massa for my food, water, shelter, & medicine to fight back.

Man.... those convos I remember seeing w/ Danny and others talking about liberal democrats being more harmful than anything else just hit home in my noggin'.


Peace

[dj-chefron]

Now this is what I enjoy different points of views that forces me to think about what I am saying.First on Rupert Murdochs company News-corp, I read it on the huffington post which was linked to the Financial Times that their profits in 2006 exceeded 10 billion dollars which they paid no federal income tax. The figures on Halliburton stocks are correct they had them posted on their webpage.Now on what government can and cannot provide. Everyone of the top 25 industrialized countries provide healthcare for their citizens save three Russia,China and us. Is that who we want to be compare to.Yes local governments fund school districts but when you have a large disparity in funding then what you are doing is creating a 2 class system where the rich gets richer and the rest of the population ends up being serfs.That system cannot sustain itself in the long run because the serfs will rise up and destroy everything .Check the French and Russian revolutions to see what happens.We can go on forever about which philosophy is best and the points you make are very valid.See I believe in Government by the people and for the people and out of many we are one. Peace

[DeesKo]

Now this is what I enjoy different points of views that forces me to think about what I am saying.First on Rupert Murdochs company News-corp, I read it on the huffington post which was linked to the Financial Times that their profits in 2006 exceeded 10 billion dollars which they paid no federal income tax.

News Corp isn't using a tax shelter and is still paying taxes on it's profits. The taxes are deferred not avoided. News Corp is simply using accelerated depreciation in their tax filing to take a larger expense in the current year, meaning they will end up paying less taxes now, but more taxes in the future. This isn't some scheme to rip off the little man and enrich the coffers of the country's elite. It's a legal and intelligent means of funding rapid growth.

I found that in about 30 seconds of searching on the web, so that may or may not be 100% perfect, but it's not the headline grabbing "they're paying no taxes because they're cool with Bush".

The figures on Halliburton stocks are correct they had them posted on their webpage.

Based on the multiple sources I've found, the peak was closer to the $50-$60 range and is currently trading at approximately $36.

One thing to note (as I'd done some research on Haliburton in the past) is that prior to Clinton, Haliburton stock was much much stronger than it has ever been since. Matter of fact, that was the time frame in which it was in the $80 a share range.

I don't see any surprises there based on the differing opinions of the governments in charge given Haliburton's purpose. I do sometimes find it amazingly coincidental that such a large company performing such a vast number of services for our government could come so close to bankruptcy and just "happen" to end up with Cheney as VP, and then wars are being kicked off with a quickness... but that's a COMPLETELY seperate topic and one which we would probably agree on.

Now on what government can and cannot provide. Everyone of the top 25 industrialized countries provide healthcare for their citizens save three Russia,China and us.

Source?

More importantly, when you do that investigation find the following:

1. Effectiveness of care
2. Average life span of the citizens
3. Rates of infectious and/or contagious diseases
4. What kind of income taxes these countries levy
5. What they're paying for basic items such as gas, bread, milk etc.

It's REAL easy to throw around the platitude of "all these other countries have "universal healthcare" but the devil is in the details.


[quote]Yes local governments fund school districts but when you have a large disparity in funding then what you are doing is creating a 2 class system where the rich gets richer and the rest of the population ends up being serfs. [quote]

Man.... the defeat accepted in that statement is amazing.

The BEAUTY of the US is that A-N-Y-B-O-D-Y with enough determination and guts can do for them and theirs. While I don't agree with inner city schools that don't use up to date materials, don't have heat in the classrooms, etc etc etc etc etc .... that is NOT imho an excuse for ANYONE to just sit down and give up and accept defeat or failure because of it.

To go a step further, at what point did it really become the sole responsibility of the public school system to teach OUR kids everything they need to know? The fact that people are so quick to blame all of this on things like the school system just further show the sheer level of dependency people have on our assed backwards, screwed up government.

Your kid's school system sucks?

Move.

You can't move, spend more time with them teaching them what they're not getting at school.

Can't spend time with them because you gotta work two jobs?

Move somewhere else in this country that doesn't have such a high cost of living where you can afford to work one job, spend that time with your kids and POSSIBLY end up in a better school district to boot.

Most importantly... don't instill that defeated attitude in the kids so that they grow up and stay right there in the same place they were when they were 5 and don't see or know anything different.

That system cannot sustain itself in the long run because the serfs will rise up and destroy everything .

Ain't nobody destroying anything in this country any time soon because

1. We actually have it pretty good compared to 90% of the globe.
2. We got too much dependency on the government to overthrow it.

We can go on forever about which philosophy is best and the points you make are very valid.See I believe in Government by the people and for the people and out of many we are one. Peace

Word up, some points you all are making are valid as well.

Peace

[BrazenMuse]

Fair points. And yes, you may call me Doug. I think mhd said it best: if you want the wealth class to GIVE to the poor class, then its gonna be on their terms. That's the bottom line.

IMHO, there two viable ways to address the issues you've identified: (1) change local, state, or federal tax code; or (2) encourage people in poor school districts to take advantage of currently existing resources that will help them "move up and move out."

I'm not unsympathetic to those who are less fortunate, but at some point even the less fortunate have to examine themselves and see what they can do to get a bigger share of the pie. Those expressing the most concern for their plight should be on the frontlines helping them out. I've been there and it ain't easy.

A friend of mine was talking about option 2 a bit yesterday...in reference to african americans...If there is a cultural/sociological meme out there which constantly confuses race with economics, then it becomes quite difficult for people to imagine that they CAN get out of poverty, that they are not perpetual victims because of something they can't do anything about. If you believe that you suffer because you are poor and you can get out of it by working and saving and that sort of thing, then you might get out of it. If you believe you are poor because of your color, you no longer (or never did) believe in the ability to get out of it. While I want to argue that it can be taught...the real problem I hear from poor urban students is always that they conflate whiteness with wealth. They BELIEVE that wealth is a White thing. I really work at it to get them to be more precise in their language and to talk about class rather than race, I drag out statistics and all manner of things to change that basic thinking paradigm. It's like pulling teeth. I have to stop them each time they make that equation in their thinking and get them to re-orient themselves. It's really deeply ingrained. My urban latinos, West Indian and African American students really do believe that all poor people are "minority" and that all whites are wealthy. When they hear about Appalachia or even New Jersey, they are all bugged out.

We can talk til we are blue in the face about how that shouldn't happen, but while yakking, get the resources to increase the educational levels AND the cultural exposure...without those tax bases, everything else is piecemeal.

I'm rambling and haven't finished thinking this through, but it's a very real problem to me...more later.

Deesko, I agree with much of what you say...and we DO have too many house niggas...and house nigga has developed other facets besides the way that term is traditionally thought of. We got new flavas of house negritude...

[Doug]

the real problem I hear from poor urban students is always that they conflate whiteness with wealth. They BELIEVE that wealth is a White thing. I really work at it to get them to be more precise in their language and to talk about class rather than race, I drag out statistics and all manner of things to change that basic thinking paradigm. It's like pulling teeth. I have to stop them each time they make that equation in their thinking and get them to re-orient themselves. It's really deeply ingrained. My urban latinos, West Indian and African American students really do believe that all poor people are "minority" and that all whites are wealthy. When they hear about Appalachia or even New Jersey, they are all bugged out.

That completely mirrors my experience working with kids in public housing 13 years ago.

[jimmymack-2000]

My spouse and I frequently take our daughter to a playground near our condo building. Over time, we've become friends with another woman (single mother) and her two daughters.

Through talking with this woman and watching her interact with her kids, it seems likely she's never had a stable home environment (WAY too protective and micro-managing), possibly has emotional/mental and/or substance abuse problems, no marketable skills, and is existing solely at the "largesse" of the state.

Her daughters, as well, both have problems: the oldest (5 years old) has ADD and talks at what I'd guess is a three-year-old's level, while the youngest (2-1/2) has yet to talk, and is WELL on the way to obesity.

This woman been very forthcoming about her aspirations to become a legal assistant, and her fears for her daughters' future. She's trying her best to improve her lot in life (through a "distance-education" online course at a dubious college) with the limited means she has.

Having to tote her kids with her everywhere she goes means she often doesn't get to the food bank in time (many of them have limited hours), and she winds up buying her girls junk food from the dollar store to get them through the rest of the day. She often goes a day without eating so that her kids can eat.

She also lives over a take-out pizza place on a strip that's notorious for prostitution and drugs -- she has no A/C, but if she opens the windows she's kept awake by hookers yelling and carrying on right outside her place. There have been several murders so far this year within a block or two of her place. Her living arrangement is also illegal -- herself and two kids in a bachelor apartment (Children's Aid could intervene at any time, for this and any of the other reasons mentioned).

I'm sure many people here know people like this lady, and may have grown up in neighborhoods where cases like this unfortunately weren't uncommon. I guess my question is: what's the first step for someone like this? How can they possibly get enough breathing room from fighting the day-to-day battles -- finding food for their kids, keeping the crackheads out of their apartment, convincing their landlord not to evict them -- to grow and help themselves?

[mhd]

she has already taken the first steps, shelter for her and the kids, food, and when things break right, relatively good food, she also has aspirations which she may achieve, finally, she lives in canada

[jimmymack-2000]

she has already taken the first steps, shelter for her and the kids, food, and when things break right, relatively good food, she also has aspirations which she may achieve, finally, she lives in canada

I guess I didn't phrase my question or concerns properly.

What, if anything, do we owe this woman?

A chance at a better life? Or is the ball squarely in her court alone to make that happen?

If we agree we have a duty to help, what form should that take? Taking a risk on her and making her the new office assistant, even though she looks like hell (she bears the scars of living rough, that's for sure)? Or maybe not voting for the candidate who promises to futher cut the social safety net just so we can afford to trade up to a 7-series BMW when the lease on our Volvo ends?

I understand the power of the individual to determine their own destiny is paramount - and indeed a prerequisite before any real change can happen - but I get a bit wary when all the onus is placed on the disadvantaged. It seems to be square one for justifying all kinds of inhumanity, and denying one's own privilege...

[mhd]

I guess I didn't phrase my question or concerns properly.

What, if anything, do we owe this woman?

A chance at a better life? Or is the ball squarely in her court alone to make that happen?

If we agree we have a duty to help, what form should that take? Taking a risk on her and making her the new office assistant, even though she looks like hell (she bears the scars of living rough, that's for sure)? Or maybe not voting for the candidate who promises to futher cut the social safety net just so we can afford to trade up to a 7-series BMW when the lease on our Volvo ends?

I understand the power of the individual to determine their own destiny is paramount - and indeed a prerequisite before any real change can happen - but I get a bit wary when all the onus is placed on the disadvantaged. It seems to be square one for justifying all kinds of inhumanity, and denying one's own privilege...

the onus has to be on the individual, all individuals, first of all to recognize one anothers humanity, and then to move from there to live and work together. employment without skills is a disaster waiting to happen, employment with training and skill development helps everybody. but you got to see the person, not their scars, not their pathology, unless, of course, both parties are sharing scars and pathologies. given all of that, your friendship and comraderie are great, and her ability to have a vision, have a dream and the heart to feed and shelter her kids is what its about and the world gives breaks to those who help themselves, she is on the right path, like her, you gotta follow your heart

[mhd]

but what would be cool is a couple stuffed animals, books and maybe a leapfrog toy for the year old, pm me your addy and i'll hook it up

[Doug]

I guess I didn't phrase my question or concerns properly.

What, if anything, do we owe this woman?

A chance at a better life? Or is the ball squarely in her court alone to make that happen?

If we agree we have a duty to help, what form should that take? Taking a risk on her and making her the new office assistant, even though she looks like hell (she bears the scars of living rough, that's for sure)? Or maybe not voting for the candidate who promises to futher cut the social safety net just so we can afford to trade up to a 7-series BMW when the lease on our Volvo ends?

I understand the power of the individual to determine their own destiny is paramount - and indeed a prerequisite before any real change can happen - but I get a bit wary when all the onus is placed on the disadvantaged. It seems to be square one for justifying all kinds of inhumanity, and denying one's own privilege...

What resources are currently out there that would allow her to step up? And since you know her, are you making an effort to help her out by at least helping her identify what's out there (that's not meant to be accusatory, BTW)?

[BrazenMuse]

but what would be cool is a couple stuffed animals, books and maybe a leapfrog toy for the year old, pm me your addy and i'll hook it up

That is most excellent and kind...straight from the heart. Much respect to you for that.

[jimmymack-2000]

but what would be cool is a couple stuffed animals, books and maybe a leapfrog toy for the year old, pm me your addy and i'll hook it up

That's a very kind and noble offer, especially when it's extended to someone you haven't met before. To be honest, both my spouse and I (on separate occassions) have slipped her a $20, and it's been greeted with a very mixed reaction. She is very open about her life and her circumstances, which by any standards are deprived, but gets very detached and distant almost when you offer to help her out.

I may get back to you on it though...

[jimmymack-2000]

What resources are currently out there that would allow her to step up? And since you know her, are you making an effort to help her out by at least helping her identify what's out there (that's not meant to be accusatory, BTW)?

I could def be doing more. As mentioned above, I've given her some money, but there's that old adage about teaching a (wo)man to fish...

I honestly don't know what free resources are available to her. Canada tends to have a lot of retraining/skills upgrading programs (some of which are really good) for newly unemployed people. But for the "structurally unemployed", it's largely tough shit. I will take it upon myself to do some digging thought and tactfully and respectfully try to present the results next time I see her.

Thanks all for lending your insight.

[mhd]

That's a very kind and noble offer, especially when it's extended to someone you haven't met before. To be honest, both my spouse and I (on separate occassions) have slipped her a $20, and it's been greeted with a very mixed reaction. She is very open about her life and her circumstances, which by any standards are deprived, but gets very detached and distant almost when you offer to help her out.

I may get back to you on it though...

well, by some standards she is handling her business, quite well, in fact, again, by some standards, i mean, i think i can tell that just by you discussing her, if she was just a foul person, regardless of station, i don't think you would or could have compassion for her, but, check, how would you react to her if she were a colleague?

[BrazenMuse]

Very often, people will accept things for their children that they won't accept on their own. Cash only goes so far.

Books can open up the universe to those children. Read to hers and yours in the park, then gift her the book if the kids look excited (ok, buy 2 copies so your child won't be mad). They are such a small and simple thing. Ditto for the "I caught a sale" sweater or scarf moment. Small things that leave her pride intact can go a long way.

I've been known to overbuy my lunch and take it to the park then share it (did I need a WHOLE roasted chicken? No...and mysteriously, I have an extra plate...or I packed a lunch for me and some snacks...the snacks get given away).

[julian_kelly]

...If we agree we have a duty to help, what form should that take? ...

There are many ways you can help. I would suggest that you display a basic level of consistent caring. Some folk merely don't have many people who care about their well being. Caring can be an important starting point; theres a saying that states, "People don't care how much you know until they know how much you care." To have someone who genuinely cares about you is priceless.

Also, I would suggest that you expose her to many different things in life -- whether they be different people, foods, neighborhoods, books, career opportunities, learning opportunites, cultural experiences, etc. The posibilities are endless. The more one is exposed to different things, the more they can envision the capabilities of life. A person's experience in life is in a sense only limited to what they are exposed to.

I would also encourage her to dream and construct a plan to accomplish her dreams.

Furthermore, don't discount the power her participating in social organizations.

[shanequa sanchez]

mutual reciprocity and respect...you'd be be surprised what you can gain/learn from this woman....
be open.....