TAC on Student Loans and Investing in Self

[DaveR]

A Point for all of DHP ... before looking at the graph below, please note (and this is no slight on anyone), just a fact ...

*** Too often, it's peeps with 1, 2, 3 degrees, and/or post grad educations all up on this board tellin' ya college ain't all that, and to "be creative" and make up ya own mind ... That's cause they smart enough to know that if you don't think college is important, that's mo money for them

Take the loans if you have to, and study your ass off ... A 3.0 to 4.0 in Fine Arts, even a degree in cookin' oatmeal will set you apart in this competitive world, in the year 2008! ... no matter what you choose to do ...


Keep (or get) yo ass in school, or that trade/certification/industry-recognized-stamp-of-achievement-approval ... the AVERAGE numbers never lie (no matter what Bill Gates did ... you ain't Bill Gates AND Harvard has a lifetime "return to Harvard" program, for entrepreneurial dropouts - ya won't read that here)

[mhd]

A Point for all of DHP ... before looking at the graph below, please note (and this is no slight on anyone), just a fact ...

*** Too often, it's peeps with 1, 2, 3 degrees, and/or post grad educations all up on this board tellin' ya college ain't all that, and to "be creative" and make up ya own mind ... That's cause they smart enough to know that if you don't think college is important, that's mo money for them

Take the loans if you have to, and study your ass off ... A 3.0 to 4.0 in Fine Arts, even a degree in cookin' oatmeal will set you apart in this competitive world, in the year 2008! ... no matter what you choose to do ...


Keep (or get) yo ass in school, or that trade/certification/industry-recognized-stamp-of-achievement-approval ... the AVERAGE numbers never lie (no matter what Bill Gates did ... you ain't Bill Gates AND Harvard has a lifetime "return to Harvard" program, for entrepreneurial dropouts - ya won't read that here)

thank you, education is the great equalizer

[DaveR]

... and regarding that graph above

Unless you can dunk a basketball over Shaq (regularly), come up with the next Broadcast.com, or invent the net Wacky Wall Walker craze, then likely you fall into one of the darker blue areas below, of people in the world!

Props to the innovators, and the "legends" - I mean that seriously ... but all too often, when them innovators and legends that we all love to celebrate, experiences the effects of a market crash, or they pass (or someone in their family) what do we see?

Benefit Party for DJ XYZ ... come raise money for their hospital bills ... WHY? ... cause they was too cool to go the normalized route of education, and hence, ain't got no Short/Long Term Disability, Medical Insurance, or Life Insurance

Yeah that ain't cool to say, but it's true ... I swear if I see one more benefit party for a so-called Legend, I'm gonna ... well, I'm not gonna do anything, just

[House]

... and regarding that graph above

Unless you can dunk a basketball over Shaq (regularly), come up with the next Broadcast.com, or invent the net Wacky Wall Walker craze, then likely you fall into one of the darker blue areas below, of people in the world!

Props to the innovators, and the "legends" - I mean that seriously ... but all too often, when them innovators and legends that we all love to celebrate, experiences the effects of a market crash, or they pass (or someone in their family) what do we see?

Benefit Party for DJ XYZ ... come raise money for their hospital bills ... WHY? ... cause they was too cool to go the normalized route of education, and hence, ain't got no Short/Long Term Disability, Medical Insurance, or Life Insurance

Yeah that ain't cool to say, but it's true ... I swear if I see one more benefit party for a so-called Legend, I'm gonna ... well, I'm not gonna do anything, just

I'll contribute to the benefit party for BIGFOOT

[DaveR]

I'll contribute to the benefit party for BIGFOOT

Support!

[Fletch]

thank you, education is the great equalizer

Frederick Douglass knew this....even if it ment his massa killin' his ass! ("Give a nigga an inch, he'll take a mile"). But he still taught himself to read. So did plenty of Brothas and sistas before us, to advance!

Benazir Bhutto knew this....even when she knew that goin' to Harvard and Oxford would eventually mean her death. But she also knew that plenty of Muslim women would follow suit, and will eventually liberate themselves.

There is a reason that people have risked their lives for that E-word. But 'modern-day soul-brotha' is the only one talking this 'college don't mean shit' talk! And I'm getting tired of it!

Sorry for the rant. And thanks for the chart, Dave!

[BrazenMuse]

All this makes perfect sense. But not everybody is ready to hear it straight out of high school. And a general "college prep" curriculum isn't for everyone either.

I still wish that we'd stop disrespecting the vocational option in our educational system.

Had a great many 2 yr college students who wish they'd been in a position to pay more attention in high school or that they'd had better high schools...some practical training would have helped. Also had a great many 4 yr students who were only there bc parents forced them, wasted money and time bc they weren't ready, took out loans that they have to pay and made bad decisions about majors...it's quite a mess, quite a tangle.

certainly, I'm not going to say that college is a BAD idea, not me with the extra alphabets behind my name...but I will say it ain't for everyone and we leave a bunch of folks on the side when we don't broaden the scope of high school to include serious career tracks. The schools with those tracks have better records in educating the kids who had behavior problems and academic problems in regular schools. When the kids see real world applications, they go after it with a vengeance. When it suits their interests, they understand why they need the chemistry, the physics, the algebra, the geometry. When kids see real world applications, many more of them become driven, become focused. Right now, the major option for kids who aren't interested in a general "college prep" trajectory and can't be seduced into being interested is dropping out. This helps who how?

[DeesKo]

... and regarding that graph above

Unless you can dunk a basketball over Shaq (regularly), come up with the next Broadcast.com, or invent the net Wacky Wall Walker craze, then likely you fall into one of the darker blue areas below, of people in the world!

Props to the innovators, and the "legends" - I mean that seriously ... but all too often, when them innovators and legends that we all love to celebrate, experiences the effects of a market crash, or they pass (or someone in their family) what do we see?

Benefit Party for DJ XYZ ... come raise money for their hospital bills ... WHY? ... cause they was too cool to go the normalized route of education, and hence, ain't got no Short/Long Term Disability, Medical Insurance, or Life Insurance

Yeah that ain't cool to say, but it's true ... I swear if I see one more benefit party for a so-called Legend, I'm gonna ... well, I'm not gonna do anything, just

In all seriousness, this is exactly why I am working 18-20 hrs a day 7 days a week right now in this store. My ass ain't gettin' any younger, my family is gettin' bigger, and quite frankly I damn sure wasn't going to turn into Tiesto overnight so what would be the point for me continuing to chase a pipe dream of supporting my family on an internet record label and DJ'ing for $200 a night.

That shit was nice while it lasted, but it would have been hella selfish of me to insist on having my family scrape by just so I could keep trying to DJ at some club @ 3 in the morning.

Maybe one day DJ'ing will come back around for me, but quite frankly, I got better shit to do and better things to worry about than ending up being 50 with nothing to show for it but some good times.

Not exactly on line with this thread, but what you said about being able to dunk over Shaq just struck a nerve with me personally because as hard as it is to admit, I knew how to blend records and throw a party, but I didn't know how to do it well enough to support my family CORRECTLY on it. ASCAP medical insurance ain't cheap.

Peace

[Armento]

Brazen, as easy as highschool is, kids should be even more thirsty for college.

[BrazenMuse]

Brazen, as easy as highschool is, kids should be even more thirsty for college.

easy from whose perspective? from the kid coming from the home where there aren't any books? where the habits of reading and of problem solving aren't part of the air they breathe? from the home that is a homeless shelter? where mom & dad are at each other's throats? It isn't necessarily the school time that provides the only disincentive.

High school is easy if you're ready for it and if you are in a district where there are sufficient resources and where the faculty don't say things like "I NEVER use technology in my classroom, I've been doing what I do for 30+ years and I'm not changing...I want students to read BOOKS" which really translates as "Although I'm an educator, I refuse to meet students where they are. Although I know that they love screens, are the kids of the video age, and are likely to pay more attention to things that don't seem "old-fashioned," I want them to meet me in my reality, the one that is quickly receding. I don't care. I'm living in a past-time paradise."

Getting students interested and excited about something other than the latest TV show or electronic doo-dad takes a great deal of work. Giving students classes which include both the cultural literacy that they will need in order to survive and thrive plus things THEY see as valuable or interesting is a tricky business.

There's an ever increasing need for different kinds of literacy (auditory, visual, etc). There is also an ever increasing need to understand that we need those kids who develop a love for something to have an outlet for that love...

I don't have the answers...but I'm busy refining my list of questions every day.


I don't know that high school is easy. I'd argue that the thirst for college comes to some folks a bit later than others.

[TAC]

Brazen, I think your messaage is being lost in the chatter, but I see your point.

[DaveR]

Brazen, I think your messaage is being lost in the chatter ...

Bigfoot chatter ?

[Phyllis Hyman Cherry]

I do to.Not everyone is meant to be an investment banker or a registered nurse or any of the trillions of things you can be with a college degree.Some people were meant to be electrians and Painters and Hvac technicians.Some people are skipping college now and getting certifications in computers and making alot of money doing that.Perhaps kids can learn about these options as well as college.

[BrazenMuse]

Dave, TAC and PHC - I'm glad to be heard. These are things I'm wrestling with daily now and it's really quite a tangle...bigfoot notwithstanding.

[Phyllis Hyman Cherry]

Strange as it may seem Tac has inspired me to maybe go to a private institution.As i see worse case scenario Ill owe $20 something thousand when i get out.If i get a job making $50,000 its manageable.I just cant have a car for a couple of years hehe.But in Ny you really dont need one anyway.Cuny Sucks and takes to damn long.I want to go to school in quarters.Go for fifteen weeks off for three then back again!I aint got the time im old.

[DaveR]

I do to.Not everyone is meant to be an investment banker or a registered nurse or any of the trillions of things you can be with a college degree.Some people were meant to be electrians and Painters and Hvac technicians.Some people are skipping college now and getting certifications in computers and making alot of money doing that.Perhaps kids can learn about these options as well as college.

I most definitely agree with all of this ...

* My overarching point is simply this -- (since you mentioned money, and my position is also one of long(er)-lasting stability) -- you seldom hear the VP of IT say "them Developers don't know shit" (b/c they know their shit, and get paid well) - but you frequently see Developers saying "that fucking VP of IT doesn't know shit" (and usually he/she doesn't know as much as they do) ...

People should choose whatever they want, but the rules of $ are pretty clear and known (absent of the unique cases of the millionaire HS dropout, or the unemployed PhD, that we all can defensively cite) ... b/c usually when you don't shoot for the top, your first thoughts about whomever you serve, or report to are "that MF doesn't know/do shit" ... why not be one of those MFers

If you shoot for 100 people at your party, you'll get 20 ... shoot for 1,000, you just might get 200.

... Personally I'm always disturbed (not like I lose sleep or anything) with anyone that advises fellow minorirites to shoot for anything less than the top*, in whatever chosen field they enter (Blue or White collar) - but that's just me

* The Top = Striving for or doing MORE than the norm (whether that be in the form of money, education, vocation and/or expended levels of effort (as nicely put by Deesko above))

[Phyllis Hyman Cherry]

Well its true that the Vp's probably have degrees.How many times have we worked for someone who is retarded but is the boss because they have the credentials?I do agree with reaching for the stars and being the best that you can be.But Dave R some people are just not academic thinkers.They are smart but in a different way.An electrician is just as brillant at what he does as an astrophysicist is at what she does.Even a degree in liberal arts will give you an advantage in corporate america.

[DaveR]

... But Dave R some people are just not academic thinkers ...

I think I said ALL areas ... even DJing and promoting (which is why I put the party analogy)

[Fletch]

Strange as it may seem Tac has inspired me to maybe go to a private institution.As i see worse case scenario Ill owe $20 something thousand when i get out.If i get a job making $50,000 its manageable.I just cant have a car for a couple of years hehe.But in Ny you really dont need one anyway.Cuny Sucks and takes to damn long.I want to go to school in quarters.Go for fifteen weeks off for three then back again!I aint got the time im old.

I hope you would consider CUNY. But I can't tell you what to do!

I went Both CUNY and private. What's that dancehall song...."Life is what you make it" (ragamuffin, diddly-diddly-ragamuffin.....!).

[Phyllis Hyman Cherry]

In Cuny you are just another number.Private institutions offer more of a small class environment.Only problem is i have already signed up for the classes so i think i have to do one semester there and transfer.Thankfully alot of private schools have articulation agreements with Cuny Schools.I did some research and found that i shouldnt nessecarily scoff at the prices of private education.There are often larger grants for schools in the private sector,where as cuny you only get so much per year.

[djLesCole]

... Personally I'm always disturbed (not like I lose sleep or anything) with anyone that advises fellow minorirites to shoot for anything less than the top*, in whatever chosen field they enter (Blue or White collar) - but that's just me

* The Top = Striving for or doing MORE than the norm (whether that be in the form of money, education, vocation and/or expended levels of effort (as nicely put by Deesko above))

Preach!
I hate the fact that mediocre is so acceptable in our community.

As for getting a college degree, here's my 2 cents. I've been an IT recruiter for over a year now. My company deals with many Fortune 500/1000 companies. I can count on one hand how many job requirements I've seen that didn't require at least a BS/BA Degree. For some, it's a measurement of not only intelligence, but determination, commitment, resolve, etc.
**Note: I'm not saying that there aren't people w/ no Degree out there that can't do the job, I'm just sharing my observations for even having a chance at most of the nicely paying jobs.

[mhd]

easy from whose perspective? from the kid coming from the home where there aren't any books? where the habits of reading and of problem solving aren't part of the air they breathe? from the home that is a homeless shelter? where mom & dad are at each other's throats? It isn't necessarily the school time that provides the only disincentive.

High school is easy if you're ready for it and if you are in a district where there are sufficient resources and where the faculty don't say things like "I NEVER use technology in my classroom, I've been doing what I do for 30+ years and I'm not changing...I want students to read BOOKS" which really translates as "Although I'm an educator, I refuse to meet students where they are. Although I know that they love screens, are the kids of the video age, and are likely to pay more attention to things that don't seem "old-fashioned," I want them to meet me in my reality, the one that is quickly receding. I don't care. I'm living in a past-time paradise."

Getting students interested and excited about something other than the latest TV show or electronic doo-dad takes a great deal of work. Giving students classes which include both the cultural literacy that they will need in order to survive and thrive plus things THEY see as valuable or interesting is a tricky business.

There's an ever increasing need for different kinds of literacy (auditory, visual, etc). There is also an ever increasing need to understand that we need those kids who develop a love for something to have an outlet for that love...

I don't have the answers...but I'm busy refining my list of questions every day.


I don't know that high school is easy. I'd argue that the thirst for college comes to some folks a bit later than others.

please stop, your preaching low expectations is disturbing, insulting and offensive

[DJ Loka]

please stop, your preaching low expectations is disturbing, insulting and offensive

she's hardly preaching low expectations. she's saying that high school leaves out a large contingent of people who can certainly be successful if they were shown other options equally as well as college.

college isnt the end all be all, you can be extremely successful without it, as with it. (i saw the graph and not everyone aspires to work for others - those people were left out, it's like the small business person isnt even on the radar at ALL now?) and working and prepping ones whole academic life to work for someone else isnt the only way to aspire in this world. it's one way of making a living....

finding ones own path may not involve college - but there are still plenty of ways to invest in self, that lead to prosperous and successful lives.

i dont think anyone in this thread said that a college education is BAD, but it isnt FOR everyone, and sometimes rather than try to fit a square peg in a round hole, it may serve someone better if they try to find where they DO fit...so their interests and talents are served.

it sounds like brazen works in the school system in some ways and maybe has first hand knowledge of trying to get kids interested in their futures...she may have a grip on a generalization, but it hardly comes across as her preaching lower expectations....

it came across to me that she's trying to include those who aren't a fit right out of the box for college, and that certainly doesnt mean one's settling for mediocre or less...it means everyone isnt supposed to be or do the same thing, the same way, and again, no one is saying college isnt an ASSET, of course it is! but it's not the only way, either.

to be successful you have to be super driven and motivated whether you have college or not, you have to stand out and be excellent with, or without it...you always have to go BEYOND the average to win at life, and that takes individuality AND brains, and creativity and training and skills and it can be done in a myriad of ways.....

ooof i'm rearrry tirrred now.....before i ramble more, i dont get how brazen was preaching low expectations.

anyway...carry on...

[Fletch]

In Cuny you are just another number.Private institutions offer more of a small class environment.Only problem is i have already signed up for the classes so i think i have to do one semester there and transfer.Thankfully alot of private schools have articulation agreements with Cuny Schools.I did some research and found that i shouldnt nessecarily scoff at the prices of private education.There are often larger grants for schools in the private sector,where as cuny you only get so much per year.

From someone who went both private (undergrad) and CUNY (grad), I'll list some tradeoffs......

CUNY pro.....
1) New and improved CUNY
2) much cheaper; tuition hikes need some approval (see SUNY)
3) more diverse, due to lower cost and city demographics,
4) Professors are slammin!

CUNY Con......
1) Stigma from past bad CUNY performances
2) Privates may have more resouces due to endowments
3) Govt cutbacks could mean problems
4) More "commuter school experience" than "college experience" (CE if you go to school away from home)

Private Pro....
1) Resources, mainly due to endowments (see Harvard)
2) Some schools within university are world renowned. See Newhouse (Syracuse), Kennedy School (Harvard)
3) Students are from around country (that's if you go NYU, Columbia, away from home).

Private Con....
1) A whole lot of money!
2) Tuition Day....."where's our money"! Can raise it anytime and any rate!
3) Lack of racial diversity; too many kids with no racial training at home, plus some schools have less than 5% 'of color' populations
4) Some professors resting on their laurels instead of continuing to bust their ass!

That's my take!

[Doug]

when one is broke "monthly expenses" equate to food, rent, gas and electric and maybe a phone

This "minimum payment" bullshit means that somewhere along the way a person decided to live above their means aka borrowing

Now if that borrowing was for an education - cool

if that borrowing was for "other" it means that you were greedy

What ever happened to saying "no"? Did the credit card folk twist arms to take their card? Even if a person was too weak to resist that, did the companies also force you to use the card on purchases you couldnt afford? Credit card folk have the same power to "convince" you to take their card as a Yugo dealer has to "convince" you to buy one of their purple hoopties - in other words: NONE


Lets start with blaming self

Unles one accepts their own responsibility in their predicament they will NEVER get out of debt

sage advice