TAC on Student Loans and Investing in Self

[Doug]

In all seriousness, this is exactly why I am working 18-20 hrs a day 7 days a week right now in this store. My ass ain't gettin' any younger, my family is gettin' bigger, and quite frankly I damn sure wasn't going to turn into Tiesto overnight so what would be the point for me continuing to chase a pipe dream of supporting my family on an internet record label and DJ'ing for $200 a night.

That shit was nice while it lasted, but it would have been hella selfish of me to insist on having my family scrape by just so I could keep trying to DJ at some club @ 3 in the morning.

Maybe one day DJ'ing will come back around for me, but quite frankly, I got better shit to do and better things to worry about than ending up being 50 with nothing to show for it but some good times.

Not exactly on line with this thread, but what you said about being able to dunk over Shaq just struck a nerve with me personally because as hard as it is to admit, I knew how to blend records and throw a party, but I didn't know how to do it well enough to support my family CORRECTLY on it. ASCAP medical insurance ain't cheap.

Peace

I completely relate to this.

[Doug]

to be successful you have to be super driven and motivated whether you have college or not, you have to stand out and be excellent with, or without it...you always have to go BEYOND the average to win at life, and that takes individuality AND brains, and creativity and training and skills and it can be done in a myriad of ways.....

That only happens when you set high expectations for yourself. I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight. My sense is that kids whose personal circumstances are less than ideal will gravitate towards options that require less of an intellectual commitment. That's sad.

[Chris Conrad]

That only happens when you set high expectations for yourself. I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight. My sense is that kids whose personal circumstances are less than ideal will gravitate towards options that require less of an intellectual commitment. That's sad.

the guy who fixes my heating and a close family friend who is an auto mechanic both make more money than most of the cubicle jockies i know who went to college...basic college teaches you how to work for someone, not for yourself...i'm gonna use my sister's generation as an example...she graduated just over a year ago and i know many of her friends and peers...most are working jobs that have nothing to do with what they studied, low paying jobs...or are still unemployed...and most are carrying massive student loan debt...

[mhd]

the ignorance in this thread is astounding...

[Doug]

the guy who fixes my heating and a close family friend who is an auto mechanic both make more money than most of the cubicle jockies i know who went to college...basic college teaches you how to work for someone, not for yourself...i'm gonna use my sister's generation as an example...she graduated just over a year ago and i know many of her friends and peers...most are working jobs that have nothing to do with what they studied, low paying jobs...or are still unemployed...and most are carrying massive student loan debt...

Anecdotal evidence that "basic college teaches you how to work for someone, not for yourself" is not conclusive evidence. Most of the enterpreneurs I know have college degrees and then some. By the same token, most of the people I know from high school who didn't go to college work for someone else. Unless you have hard evidence of the kind that Dave R proffered showing what people with different levels of education make on average, the info above is meaningless.

The bottom line is you get out of college what you put into it. As I said earlier, going to college and doing just enough to get by and get a degree is not enough.

[DJ Loka]

That only happens when you set high expectations for yourself. I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight. My sense is that kids whose personal circumstances are less than ideal will gravitate towards options that require less of an intellectual commitment. That's sad.

whats sad is that you with your college educated self think the guy who fixes your car or your plumbing is somehow not as smart as you.

thats the sad thing. pathetic actually.


the fact is they're differently smart. which obviously doesn't register on your meter of intellectual capacity as far as a 'commitment' goes.


and some info about entrepreneurship and it's relation to education:
http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200610/born.html


Are Entrepreneurs Born or Made?
<!-- Article Deck --> Two-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired by innate desire, not education or training, according to a new survey.
By: Leslie Taylor
Published October 24, 2006


EMAIL THIS ARTICLE
PRINTER FRIENDLY
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<!-- AddThis Bookmark Button BEGIN --> <script type="text/javascript"> addthis_url = "http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200610/born.html&title=Are+Entrepreneurs+Born+or+Made%3F" ; addthis_title = document.title; addthis_pub = 'pmaiorana'; </script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://s7.addthis.com/js/addthis_widget.php?v=12"></script> <!-- AddThis Bookmark Button END -->

<!-- Body Copy --> A new survey may help resolve a debate that has raged for years among the self-made set -- whether entrepreneurs are born or made.
The verdict: born. At least that's according to the survey by Northeastern University's School of Technological Entrepreneurship.
Nearly two-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired to start their own companies by their innate desire and determination, rather than by their education or work experience.
Only 1 percent of more than 200 U.S. entrepreneurs surveyed cited higher education as a significant motivator toward starting their own venture, while 61 percent cited their "innate drive." Other motivators cited were work experience (21 percent) and success of entrepreneurial peers within their industry (16 percent).
"The survey results indicate a major issue in academia today: institutions of higher education are not adequately preparing students for careers in entrepreneurship," Paul Zavracky, dean of School of Technological Entrepreneurship, said in a statement.
While entrepreneurship skills can be taught, the survey results suggest that the desire to be an entrepreneur usually is not. Rather, as 42 percent of survey respondents said they launched their first venture in childhood, it seems as though the enterprising spirit is discovered within the individual, not developed by the individual's experience.
Thirty-three percent of respondents launched their first venture between the ages of 18 and 30; 13 percent between 30 and 40; and only 12 percent started their first business after the age of 40.
The survey also suggests that the majority of entrepreneurs were confident about the success of their first venture. Thirty-two percent said they had no fear that their venture would not succeed, while 42 percent had some fear but characterized themselves as confident. Only 14 percent said they experienced significant fear that their first venture would fail, while 12 percent said fear of failure delayed their leap into entrepreneurship.

[Doug]

whats sad is that you with your college educated self think the guy who fixes your car or your plumbing is somehow not as smart as you.

thats the sad thing. pathetic actually.

Umm...you need to get off that bullshit right quick and check yourself because that's not what I said. I made no comparisons between myself and the person who may not have gone to or completed college, so stop with the assumptions.

My gripe is with immediately tracking people into vocational education classes because, as some folks have indicated here, regular high school classes are "too hard" and certain people are not cut out to be "academic thinkers." If people go to alternative/vocational education classes and excel and push themselves, I think that's great. But to the extent vocational education classes become an excuse for those who are otherwise college capable "academic thinkers" not to challenge themselves, then I believe that's a bad thing. And since anecdotal evidence seems to count for hard evidence in this thread, let me offer some of my own: those kids who went to vocational school in my home town in New Jersey were always labelled "troublemakers," "bad kids," and "academic failures." And guess what? Vocational school didn't do a muthafuckin' thing to fix that.

the fact is they're differently smart. which obviously doesn't register on your meter of intellectual capacity as far as a 'commitment' goes.

I challenge you to go back to my post, read my comment, and find the support for your assertion. One thing college teaches you is critical thinking. You're displaying a lack of that here.

and some info about entrepreneurship and it's relation to education:
http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200610/born.html


Are Entrepreneurs Born or Made?
<!-- Article Deck --> Two-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired by innate desire, not education or training, according to a new survey.
By: Leslie Taylor
Published October 24, 2006


EMAIL THIS ARTICLE
PRINTER FRIENDLY
COMMENT ON THIS ARTICLE

<!-- AddThis Bookmark Button BEGIN --> <script type="text/javascript"> addthis_url = "http://www.inc.com/news/articles/200610/born.html&title=Are+Entrepreneurs+Born+or+Made%3F" ; addthis_title = document.title; addthis_pub = 'pmaiorana'; </script><script type="text/javascript" src="http://s7.addthis.com/js/addthis_widget.php?v=12"></script> <!-- AddThis Bookmark Button END -->

<!-- Body Copy --> A new survey may help resolve a debate that has raged for years among the self-made set -- whether entrepreneurs are born or made.
The verdict: born. At least that's according to the survey by Northeastern University's School of Technological Entrepreneurship.
Nearly two-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired to start their own companies by their innate desire and determination, rather than by their education or work experience.
Only 1 percent of more than 200 U.S. entrepreneurs surveyed cited higher education as a significant motivator toward starting their own venture, while 61 percent cited their "innate drive." Other motivators cited were work experience (21 percent) and success of entrepreneurial peers within their industry (16 percent).
"The survey results indicate a major issue in academia today: institutions of higher education are not adequately preparing students for careers in entrepreneurship," Paul Zavracky, dean of School of Technological Entrepreneurship, said in a statement.
While entrepreneurship skills can be taught, the survey results suggest that the desire to be an entrepreneur usually is not. Rather, as 42 percent of survey respondents said they launched their first venture in childhood, it seems as though the enterprising spirit is discovered within the individual, not developed by the individual's experience.
Thirty-three percent of respondents launched their first venture between the ages of 18 and 30; 13 percent between 30 and 40; and only 12 percent started their first business after the age of 40.
The survey also suggests that the majority of entrepreneurs were confident about the success of their first venture. Thirty-two percent said they had no fear that their venture would not succeed, while 42 percent had some fear but characterized themselves as confident. Only 14 percent said they experienced significant fear that their first venture would fail, while 12 percent said fear of failure delayed their leap into entrepreneurship.

Great article. Two funny things to note about it, however: (1) The title says "[t]wo-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired by innate desire, not education or training." My guess is that would include the "alternative training/vocational training" you so highly tout (2) nowhere in the article did it say that two-thirds of enterpreneurs (a) didn't finish high school (b) didn't have a degree from a university.

I swear I do not understand the need for people who didn't go to or finish college to constantly put down college as a worthless endeavour. If it didn't work for you, fine.

[TAC]

I swear I do not understand the need for people who didn't go to or finish college to constantly put down college as a worthless endeavour. If it didn't work for you, fine.

This actually stems from a lack of understanding with respect to what college actually does for the individual. College extends beyond merely the books.

In any event, the point of this thread is getting sidetracked. The fundamental lesson here was/is to view student loans as a self investment.

Upon signing on the bottom line for the money, the onus is then upon the borrower to make sure they do good for themselves so that they can go on to pay back the money. If upon borrowing $40,000, a student then drops out without a clue on how they are going to make enough money to pay back the loan, then that's the mistake that too many make.

While we're at it, I for the life of me could never understand how students would borrow tens of thousands of dollars to obtain degrees in the humanities. Although experience has since helped me to figure out that plot. However, a BS in history does not help a student if they are not coming from one of the feeder schools for walls street internships.

Vocational vs. College, well that's a whole other discussion...

I think we could frame the turn that the discussion has taken more as a question of a formal vs. an informal education.

Peace
TAC

[mhd]

tac,

beg to differ my friend, a bs in history is an excellent degree

[TAC]

tac,

beg to differ my friend, a bs in history is an excellent degree

So, should I have said bs in basket weaving to drive home the point?

[BrazenMuse]

mhd, we're just going to have to disagree. It's not about lowering expectations. It's about dealing with the realities facing education in America. There is nothing that says that a person who doesn't do well in high school and/or doesn't go immediately into college won't take up the challenge later. Continuing education is an absolute reality these days. From the mechanic and the plumber to the cubicle jockey, entrepreneur, teacher, doctor, lawyer...everyone who realizes that they want something more will eventually turn/return to education as a way to do something with that desire.

It IS about dealing with realities. The world is not perfect. For every parent who sits with their child and reads or helps with homework or invests time and money in tutoring, there are 10 who won't/can't. Vocational education should not be the dumping ground that it has become in America. The inspiration and motivation don't always happen in the first 21 years. The exposure to a world of possibilities for application of learned knowledge is the responsibility of public education, but we give that short-shrift by creating that false dichotomy which somehow elevates a general "college prep" curriculum over practical and applied knowledges RATHER than creating a synergy between them AND capturing the interest of those children who say, incessantly, "Why do I need to know this? who cares? I'm never going to need this or use this." Is it really ok to lose those students? I don't think so. I've taught too many college level basic skill courses to students who thought that way and dropped out but had to come back to education because they had children or because they belatedly realized what they had thrown away. There's a predatory for-profit 2yr college system out that counting on those folks, after all. That system is delivering inferior education because it's only interested in getting the financial aid money into its own pockets. And those students suffer for it. Do we need to feed that system or do we need to fix what's going on in the public school system and get our heads out of the sand about what types of education need to be available AND respected? I'd rather not feed that system.

So, call it what you will, be offended if you must. I expect excellence in my classroom, from my students and from myself. I spend hours selling the importance of a continued education to them with things like that earnings graphic so helpfully inserted earlier in this thread. I also go out of my way to look for things that connect their coursework to the real world so that they see the necessity of it. It doesn't always reach every student, certainly not immediately. But I also spent years teaching college...and saw quite a few students who ended up dropping out of college because they still didn't see the point. They had no direction, didn't find one and might not have found one until years after leaving college. That's ok.

It IS a matter of investing in self...but one has to be able to see the need for that investment. For some, that comes later ...perhaps because the scaffolding for it wasn't there early enough.


Peace.

[mhd]

So, should I have said bs in basket weaving to drive home the point?

lol, spoken like a true engineer, but i get your point

[BrazenMuse]

That only happens when you set high expectations for yourself. I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight. My sense is that kids whose personal circumstances are less than ideal will gravitate towards options that require less of an intellectual commitment. That's sad.

It is sad. But those kids are real. And our system barely acknowledges their existence. Using vo-tech as a dumping ground for "problem" children in such a tech oriented world makes NO sense at all. Avoiding the use of schools with themes/career tracks makes all the sense in the world. Kids have to be exposed to things in order to develop interest in them. The current system doesn't do that enough of the time.

[DJ Loka]

Umm...you need to get off that bullshit right quick and check yourself because that's not what I said. I made no comparisons between myself and the person who may not have gone to or completed college, so stop with the assumptions.

My gripe is with immediately tracking people into vocational education classes because, as some folks have indicated here, regular high school classes are "too hard" and certain people are not cut out to be "academic thinkers." If people go to alternative/vocational education classes and excel and push themselves, I think that's great. But to the extent vocational education classes become an excuse for those who are otherwise college capable "academic thinkers" not to challenge themselves, then I believe that's a bad thing. And since anecdotal evidence seems to count for hard evidence in this thread, let me offer some of my own: those kids who went to vocational school in my home town in New Jersey were always labelled "troublemakers," "bad kids," and "academic failures." And guess what? Vocational school didn't do a muthafuckin' thing to fix that.



I challenge you to go back to my post, read my comment, and find the support for your assertion. One thing college teaches you is critical thinking. You're displaying a lack of that here.



Great article. Two funny things to note about it, however: (1) The title says "[t]wo-thirds of entrepreneurs claim they were inspired by innate desire, not education or training." My guess is that would include the "alternative training/vocational training" you so highly tout (2) nowhere in the article did it say that two-thirds of enterpreneurs (a) didn't finish high school (b) didn't have a degree from a university.

I swear I do not understand the need for people who didn't go to or finish college to constantly put down college as a worthless endeavour. If it didn't work for you, fine.

critical thinking? interesting...nowhere did i say college was a worthless endeavor. i said it's not for everyone and i said some people can be just as successful, and are just as smart without it. i didn't pass judgments on anyone's intellectual capacity based on their college preference.

i just came back from getting my highlights done...my 24 year old colorist has no debt, and plans on buying property in two years. i asked her about her friends...and she said they're all in debt up to their ears and not working in their chosen profession.

then she said..."i'm so glad i went to beauty school."

i 'tout' being who you are to the best of your ability, and following whatever path puts you into a happy, prosperous, successful existence. my stance from the beginning has been that college is not for everyone. it's a simple enough concept.

'vocations' aren't to be looked down on, and certainly don't require less intelligence. and as far as critical thinking goes maybe you should evaluate your own.

critical seems to be your specialty.

i'll say it one more time, of course college is an asset, of course it is! and we all know that...but it's not the only way, and that's been my assertion from the start.

[mhd]

i know a guy, immigrant family, from a broken home, managed to go to top schools, now he is running for president, but he prolly woulda made a great plumber.....too

[DJ Loka]

i know a guy, immigrant family, from a broken home, managed to go to top schools, now he is running for president, but he prolly woulda made a great plumber.....too

even our soon to be next president needs a great plumber. he doesn't look too handy and shit doesn't flush by itself.

[Leslie]

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even our soon to be next president needs a great plumber. he doesn't look too handy and shit doesn't flush by itself.

Haha! Get out my head!

[DaveR]

even our soon to be next president needs a great plumber. he doesn't look too handy and shit doesn't flush by itself.

[mhd]

mhd, we're just going to have to disagree. It's not about lowering expectations. It's about dealing with the realities facing education in America. There is nothing that says that a person who doesn't do well in high school and/or doesn't go immediately into college won't take up the challenge later. Continuing education is an absolute reality these days. From the mechanic and the plumber to the cubicle jockey, entrepreneur, teacher, doctor, lawyer...everyone who realizes that they want something more will eventually turn/return to education as a way to do something with that desire.

It IS about dealing with realities. The world is not perfect. For every parent who sits with their child and reads or helps with homework or invests time and money in tutoring, there are 10 who won't/can't. Vocational education should not be the dumping ground that it has become in America. The inspiration and motivation don't always happen in the first 21 years. The exposure to a world of possibilities for application of learned knowledge is the responsibility of public education, but we give that short-shrift by creating that false dichotomy which somehow elevates a general "college prep" curriculum over practical and applied knowledges RATHER than creating a synergy between them AND capturing the interest of those children who say, incessantly, "Why do I need to know this? who cares? I'm never going to need this or use this." Is it really ok to lose those students? I don't think so. I've taught too many college level basic skill courses to students who thought that way and dropped out but had to come back to education because they had children or because they belatedly realized what they had thrown away. There's a predatory for-profit 2yr college system out that counting on those folks, after all. That system is delivering inferior education because it's only interested in getting the financial aid money into its own pockets. And those students suffer for it. Do we need to feed that system or do we need to fix what's going on in the public school system and get our heads out of the sand about what types of education need to be available AND respected? I'd rather not feed that system.

So, call it what you will, be offended if you must. I expect excellence in my classroom, from my students and from myself. I spend hours selling the importance of a continued education to them with things like that earnings graphic so helpfully inserted earlier in this thread. I also go out of my way to look for things that connect their coursework to the real world so that they see the necessity of it. It doesn't always reach every student, certainly not immediately. But I also spent years teaching college...and saw quite a few students who ended up dropping out of college because they still didn't see the point. They had no direction, didn't find one and might not have found one until years after leaving college. That's ok.

It IS a matter of investing in self...but one has to be able to see the need for that investment. For some, that comes later ...perhaps because the scaffolding for it wasn't there early enough.


Peace.

clueless

[Doug]

critical thinking? interesting...nowhere did i say college was a worthless endeavor. i said it's not for everyone and i said some people can be just as successful, and are just as smart without it. i didn't pass judgments on anyone's intellectual capacity based on their college preference.

I didn't pass any judgments on a person's intellectual capacity based on their career preference either. I said that to the extent a person who is intellectually capable of going to college is tracked into or chooses an alternative education/vocational program because it is less intellectually challenging (read: easier), then that seems wrong. You jumped all on my case because you read that to mean that I thought those without a college education were somehow beneath me (even though I mentioned nothing about myself or my educational background relative to those without degrees). Nothing could be further from the truth. For me to believe that would mean to bite the hand that fed me since my father did not have a degree.

I'm not downing people who choose not to go to college. I'm downing the idea that alternative/vocational education is some kind of "magic bullet" that will make students better off. It is no more of a "magic bullet" than the college route if the student does not set high expectations for him or herself.

i just came back from getting my highlights done...my 24 year old colorist has no debt, and plans on buying property in two years. i asked her about her friends...and she said they're all in debt up to their ears and not working in their chosen profession.

then she said..."i'm so glad i went to beauty school."

Good for her. But again, this nothing but anecdotal evidence.

i 'tout' being who you are to the best of your ability, and following whatever path puts you into a happy, prosperous, successful existence. my stance from the beginning has been that college is not for everyone. it's a simple enough concept.

'vocations' aren't to be looked down on, and certainly don't require less intelligence. and as far as critical thinking goes maybe you should evaluate your own.

critical seems to be your specialty.

Oh please. Save the snide remarks for someone else. You really should go back and look at my first response to you in this thread. Clearly you missed it, because you wouldn't be so salty in your replies.

First, I did NOT say vocational education should be looked down upon. Nor did I say those who "choose" vocational education were less intelligent. But, as Brazen Muse has stated, vocational education often winds up being the dumping ground for kids who have been written off by the educational system. Still others choose it not because they are less intellectually capable than their peers, but because they find it easier than the traditional college curriculum. Consequently, there are groups of students in these programs that have been underestimated or that have underestimated themselves. THAT is what I am against. If you have a problem with that, so be it. And if for some reason you are still unable to understand my position, here are some select quotes you apparently glossed over:

If people go to alternative/vocational education classes and excel and push themselves, I think that's great. But to the extent vocational education classes become an excuse for those who are otherwise college capable "academic thinkers" not to challenge themselves, then I believe that's a bad thing.

I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight.


The bottom line is you get out of college what you put into it. As I said earlier, going to college and doing just enough to get by and get a degree is not enough.

i'll say it one more time, of course college is an asset, of course it is! and we all know that...but it's not the only way, and that's been my assertion from the start.

And if you read my posts carefully, I never disagreed with that assertion. I only disagree with the idea of vocational education as a panacea. The "panacea" is hard work, determination, and setting high expectations for oneself. If that is not part of person's makeup, then it doesn't matter whether they go the vocational education route or the college education route.

[BrazenMuse]

clueless

different perspective.

peace.

[Fletch]

I used to come out against vocational schools because I thought there was a lot of racial steering towards them. Also, many of the vocational schools at the time I went (20-25 years ago) are now obsolete and need to either be shut down or updated with the changing technology.

Now, I don't attack vocational schools like I used to. I realize that back then, those schools taught trades that were the backbone of the economy. But as I said, changes need to be made that is up to speed with today's times.

Full disclosure....I am an alum of a vocational High School. Although I made the choice to go to a vocational school myself (personally taking full responsibility for it!), I know and saw plenty of people who were steered into them! And it's still going on.

[MEP]

In general, children will meet whatever expectation you set for them.

[BrazenMuse]

Doug... I agree with you here:

I don't see how vocational/trade schools and other options to the traditional high school/college route would be any better at coaxing kids not to settle for mediocrity. The kids on which you and Brazenmuse seem to be focusing require much more than alternative education tracks to get them straight.


The bottom line is you get out of college what you put into it. As I said earlier, going to college and doing just enough to get by and get a degree is not enough.

They do indeed require more. Broadening the scope of possibilities and exposure to the real world possibilities allows schools to capture more of the students who might otherwise slip away. It motivates the ones who need to see why they need to know certain things...

Keeping them interested is a good thing. Getting them to understand that they have to actively put something into their own development if they want what they claim to want is a key that could open more minds...

[mhd]

In general, children will meet whatever expectation you set for them.

thank you