Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Solve the cause, not the symptom

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,193

    Post

    This whole "war on terrorism" / Iraq / 9-11 / UN "irrelevence" / oil / protest / etc. situation has got me thinking: What are our true goals, and what are the best way to achieve these? Now...this is how I work through this logically, without patriotism, without anger, without passion.

    I would like to think that our goal is for peace. if this is the case, then I assume we want our allies to like us, and to no longer have any enemies.

    The first part of this is quite easy: if you show respect to them, enter into treaties and negotians with them as an equal partner, and deal fairly with allies, they should like you. It's all about figuring out ways that you can mutually benefit.

    The second part is a bit more complicated. To me it seems logical that killing people makes you more, not less enemies. Since you cannot (and should not) kill all of your enemies' childeren, friends, family, etc., you will only cause more enemies to be created through violence. We all know that one of the reasons we are attacked in the first place, is because we have already killed so many people (millions due to attacks and sanctions, in the case of Iraq, alone). Plus, since we live in a supposedly civilized world, where murder is the paramount of moral evil, it seems as though killing should be avoided. Furthermore, killing doesn't come cheap these days, so maybe we could save a few bucks for our schools, parks and public programs by avoiding some bomb building.

    Well, if you're not going to bomb all your enemies off the face of the planet...how should you deal with them? Well, in the case of foreign policy, I think that the first logical step would be to figure out why you have enemies in the first place. It seems as though there are a lot of people out there that truly hate the US. How many people in the US can say that they have any idea as to why this is? Few, I imagine. Our leaders like to tell us that it is just some insane, religious zealots...but we all know better than that. I think that the answers are probably best found in our history.

    So, looking at our history (and I'm not talking about you 8th Grade school version), we can find lots of things that might make people hate us. We have killed for money more times than we can count. We have supported evil regimes and overturned good ones. We have polluted the Earth (which we should all be sharing) way more than everybody else combined. We have assasinated leaders, we have deceived nations, we have stolen and raped. Our last fifty years alone can provide us with infinite examples of all these attrocities. These seem like they might cause some people to hate us...the children of those whose lives we've ruined.

    But, nobody likes to look at history. It's too academic, and few people like gathering information from books. It it's not on the History Channel, it doesn't seem to make an impact. Everytime I hear "patriots" defend their beloved country's attrocities, I pray that they would go back and read the amazing philophies of 18th Century Enlightenment on which their country was founded...Rousseau, Voltaire, Descartes, etc. Their ideas on human liberty go so contrary to these cries for torture, these unprovoked attacks on foreign nations, etc. Jefferson and Franklin must be rolling in their graves.

    But I digress...

    Why else would we be hated? People hate us so much that they are willing to sacrifice their lives to see harm come to us. That is a lot of hate. Aside from historical reasons, there must be contemporary ones. For this, we must look to foreign policy. Nobody likes a bully, yet our foreign policy-makers are the world's biggest bullies. The key trait to a bully is that he acts like he is better than everybody else, and has the right to push others around, and not be pushed himself. It is this belief in being above the rules that makes bullies so terrible. Yet, in our foreign policy dealings, we often seem to place ourselves above the rules and surrounding society. Whether it is going along with a UN vote, signing the Kyoto accords, participating on a conference on racism (only the US and Israel left), owning terrible weapons of destruction, etc., etc. We seem to feel like we can tell others what to do, but have no ear for them telling us what we should do. We feel like we can bomb other states, but how dare anybody bomb us. Nobody likes a bully who thinks they have the right to live outside the rules of decency, yet feels the right to push others around. I could see why we might be hated for our current arrogance.

    I always love John Lennon's (or was it Yoko's?) quote: "What if there was a war, and nobody showed up?" Indeed, this would be an easy reality. All it would take is for nobody to attack anybody else. Pre-emptive strikes on other countries have long been seen as wrong. Iraq has no way of pre-emptively striking us...so we can't even use the old, "We're getting them first, 'cause they're about to get us" excuse. Yet, somehow, the people here have become convinced that our policy should include pre-emptive strikes...how strange. (My mom taught me only to fight in self defense...)

    Perhaps we're also hated for our material imperialism, our cultural imperialism, our unfair trade practices, our unfair immigration practices. Maybe some people hate us for playing favorites...supporting nations that are far more evil than some of those we don't support. (Guess who the number one and number 2 countries are at the top of the "Defying UN resolutions" list? America's allies, Israel and Turkey).

    So...since our original goal was to create peace (which includes not having people fly planes into our buildings), and since we'd like to do it with as little bloodshed as possible (since this is the only way to make it permanent), I would think that what we would be spending our time and energy on is making people hate us a little less. And, maybe putting McDonalds on all of their blocks isn't the best way to do this. Perhaps, sitting with them, asking for their grievences (and giving them ours), and finding solutions, so that we can like each other, would be a better, less bloody, more effective way to achieve our goal of world peace. Maybe, stopping our empiriacal, violent, and relatively evil escapades abroad could make everybody get along. Maybe then, we could save trillions of dollars in military spending, and solve some of our own problems.

    In logical terms...the problem is: we don't want to get attacked. Why do we get attacked? Because we are hated. Therefore, if we are less hated, we'll get less attacked.

    Hawks try to tell us that we solve the problem by destroying the haters. Yet...if this in turn causes more haters to be created (and i think that polling across nations of the world prove this to be true), then we are not solving the problem. We are solving an immediate symptom, but further enlarging the cause.

    Now, before you dismiss me as a peacenik or naive optimist (of which I am neither), I want to know where the break in logic is here.

    Of course, since the US is doing exactly the opposite of what I suggest. Since we are creating more enemies, creating more bloodshed, losing more friends, betraying the principles that founded this country, and creating less peace...I think that maybe our goal is not for peace. So the real question is: what is the goal we are pursuing...and is it right?

    [ March 05, 2003, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: konbit ]
    With desire, the world is tied down. With the subduing of desire it\'s freed. With the abandoning of desire all bonds are cut through.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Washington DC
    Posts
    9,432

    Post

    IMHO :

    First, you assume everyone else in the world is rational in thought and feels the same way you do.

    You also assume everyone else in the world just wants peace and would be perfectly happy living side by side with everyone else which isn't true.

    On a philosophical note, conflict is as natural a state as peace. You can't have one without the other, the natural balance of things only exists when both are present. Yin and Yang. Conflict has been wagered amongst the peoples of this globe long before the United States or its government existed, conflict will exist long after we are gone, it exists now within peoples who have no idea where the United States is even located, much less what our international policies may be.

    The difficulty lies in trying to ensure balance is achieved between war and peace.

    Just my opinion

    Peace
    <cfif isDefined("session.user.sense") and ('#session.user.sense#') eq '0'>
    <cfset option = delete>
    </cfif>

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,193

    Post

    But is balancing Yin and Yang a realistic administration goal? I'm not trying to get to philosophical here. I am refering tothe current situation.

    The US was meant to be based on rational thought...yet its actions are currently defying logic. Unless, of course, there are goals outside of trying to achieve what we claim we are trying to acheive. And, in a democracy, a government's goals should be transparent to the population.
    With desire, the world is tied down. With the subduing of desire it\'s freed. With the abandoning of desire all bonds are cut through.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    3,715

    Post

    Originally posted by konbit:

    The US was meant to be based on rational thought...yet its actions are currently defying logic. Unless, of course, there are goals outside of trying to achieve what we claim we are trying to acheive. And, in a democracy, a government's goals should be transparent to the population.
    i don't want to be a pessimist, Orion, but wasn't this country based on a capitalistic venture through genocide, i think the government is staying true to its roots even though american mythology and propaganda touts the opposite, just like the pledge of allegiance "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"... the reality of the situation is that reality is what's really oppressed in this country

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    3,715

    Post

    bling bling

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,193

    Post

    Originally posted by Tenyu:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by konbit:

    The US was meant to be based on rational thought...yet its actions are currently defying logic. Unless, of course, there are goals outside of trying to achieve what we claim we are trying to acheive. And, in a democracy, a government's goals should be transparent to the population.
    i don't want to be a pessimist, Orion, but wasn't this country based on a capitalistic venture through genocide, i think the government is staying true to its roots even though american mythology and propaganda touts the opposite, just like the pledge of allegiance "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"... the reality of the situation is that reality is what's really oppressed in this country</font>[/QUOTE]Well...the ideas that America was based on ideologically. If you read the writings of Franklin and Jefferson, (or the Declaration of Independence or Constitution) you find that they were quite in line with their Enlightened European peers. The French loved the US for years for making its philosphies a reality.

    The ideals of the founding of the state were still based on very humanistic ideologies.

    The reality was obviously a bit different. Slavery and genocide were done during a time when the idea "savagery" was still in place for a lot of people...and went against the idea of natural rights that was being established.
    With desire, the world is tied down. With the subduing of desire it\'s freed. With the abandoning of desire all bonds are cut through.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    3,715

    Post

    Originally posted by konbit:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Tenyu:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by konbit:

    The US was meant to be based on rational thought...yet its actions are currently defying logic. Unless, of course, there are goals outside of trying to achieve what we claim we are trying to acheive. And, in a democracy, a government's goals should be transparent to the population.
    i don't want to be a pessimist, Orion, but wasn't this country based on a capitalistic venture through genocide, i think the government is staying true to its roots even though american mythology and propaganda touts the opposite, just like the pledge of allegiance "indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"... the reality of the situation is that reality is what's really oppressed in this country</font>[/QUOTE]Well...the ideas that America was based on ideologically. If you read the writings of Franklin and Jefferson, (or the Declaration of Independence or Constitution) you find that they were quite in line with their Enlightened European peers. The French loved the US for years for making its philosphies a reality.

    The ideals of the founding of the state were still based on very humanistic ideologies.

    The reality was obviously a bit different. Slavery and genocide were done during a time when the idea "savagery" was still in place for a lot of people...and went against the idea of natural rights that was being established.
    </font>[/QUOTE]i'm sure they did have this democratic idealism but only amongst their community which would exclude everyone from a non-european descent, and today where there really is no sense of community or unity even within the powers of big business and big government, there is even less democracy for the fewer, money is the only thing sacred now and whoever controls it is god

  8. #8
    f0reverneverm0re Guest

    Post

    Originally posted by konbit:
    I want to know where the break in logic is here.
    the break in logic comes with people having the freedom to act irrationally and not be able/willing to acknowledge this as being possible. even presenting fairly sound arguments against war and *needless* violence, you still have to have faith and hope--trust--that people will entertain them.

    what does it mean that people will ignore a "truer" more complete version of history only to accept *popular* historical fact?

    some have been comparing the "preemptive" attack on Iraq to WWII intervention in Europe and supposed defeat of German Nazi party forces. from what i understand, Hitler was on a roll for a number of years before the US govt controllers decided it should be dragged into the fray. the convenient excuse was that the *Japs* made us get into the war (some have suggested that the US had advanced enough notice in order to possibly repel the attack, but who knows. too lazy to go find info, sorry). but instead of invading the island of Japan like brave warriors the US nuked a civilian population in a non-military city--i contend it was a live bomb test, some i've argued against say "it brought the war to an end" blah³.

    Saddam Hussein has--so far--remained regional since the early 60s (his history is readily available on the internet), having formally come into power in 1979. is he killing and torturing "his own people"?--i would say no more than any other corrupt leader of the free world is. the US is no different than any other nation, people here get used and abused here just like in many places around the world, it's just the US doesn't look the part of the "3rd world nation" that, in fact, it is.

    so the argument today on most CNN shows is that the US (apparently, not most other nations) needs to stop Saddam "the global threat" Hussein (and also some group named al Qaeda). what does not matter is that, apparently, Iraq's sitting govt hasn't done anything majorly offensive to any of the govts supposed enemies since the late 80s-early 90s. (minor skirmishes between the US and Iraqi military don't count because the US is effecting their sovereignty, and all's fair in war).

    does the US-Iraq quarrel mirror the Israel-Palestine quarrel in many ways? i say yes.

    the US (and Iraeli) govts can do no wrong--it's all the fault of the towel heads on the other side, the US and Israeli governors are the *good* guys, the angels.

    if anyone here EVER hears a dabate--like the Israel-Palestine one i heard on that Pat Buchannan show on CNN tonight @ 5pm Pacific/8pm Eastern--where the Israeli govt policy side actually admits that the so-called "terrorist" attacks are the direct result of the original and increasing land occupation in Palestine, please, post transcipt here. Pat Buchannan himself insisted this to be the case as he sided w/ the Palestinian voice, a representative of the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO)--of course, Pat Buchannan has been accused of being a neo-nazi in neo-libertarians clothing, so take his support of any such issues w/a grain of salt.

    (also during this debate, the Israeli govt policy side mentioned that terrorist organizations like HAMAS and some other one, but he didn't mention the PLO..thought that was pretty interesting)

    alas, people seem to want war cuz it's easier than admitting *your* side might be at fault and sincerely working toward a truer, lasting peace. so people who don't question the US govt (and business leaders, or those who have represented both at the same time, like Dick Cheney, who was a big man @ Halliburton when they sold oil equipment to Saddam, possibly illegally as the embargo was in place at the time..at least when the US gets there they'll be familiar with the equipment).

    people "convinced" that war is the answer, they may just get what they want. no big deal, war is just a thing. though i "argue" for 'peace' but have little faith that this earth peace will come, i have no problem realizing the peace within (at moments), so i sense that i personally will be alright.

    as for "peaceniks", i'm not one myself--if a warmongering Red Dawn wannabe slob steps to me at a rally or whatever talking shit about "we need to go to war!" and they decide to touch me, we will be going to war--i'm not that tiny woman that the police always try to smack around, i will throw down with anybody...but i'd prefer to be peaceful.

    so when the focus finally gets back on the US economic/job market situation, what are those worker warriors who support war going to do when it comes down to fighting for work and living wages (besides blame the dirty Mexican job snatchers)? are you going to stand up to neglectful civic mismanagement in city hall or the state capital?..or are you scared that what was happening at the turn of the century in this country (and the world) will happen to you once you stand up to have your voice heard, that the business leader bosses will start positioning gunman on rooftops again and using the police to beat your head in if you so decide to act up? i'm sure a lot of knuckleheads will go as far...

    ...but that's the point: things don't need to go as far as they do. if we know what it was like when there wasn't a "problem", maybe we can rediscover this magic solution that alludes us.

    i have a feeling that every individual human could find "the solution" if they really thought deeply about it. this isn't a dream of mine--i have no dreams that involve humanity. it's more like simple logic: if there is a problem, there is some sort of 'solution' (even if it involves paradox).

    if as physical beings were bound to change, why can't *our* thinking change--danamically--as well?

    ²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²²

    Iraq No-Fly Zones turn to "eh, might as well bomb 'em" Zones
    http://www.globalpolicy.org/security...q/flyindex.htm

    when was the last time US/UK bombed Iraq? (archived wire stories)
    http://www.ccmep.org/usbombingwatch/2002.html

    [ March 05, 2003, 10:20 PM: Message edited by: f0reverneverm0re ]

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2001
    Location
    Brussels, Belgium
    Posts
    3,735

    Post

    Very interesting analysis Konbit ! I slightly want to challenge your basic assumption though, given that it’s maybe a bit too idealistic. Peace might be a goal the US strives for, but it’s not the core goal of US policy. The # 1 aim of every country is to secure it’s own interests. Every country has its own interests. Would it be fair to say that the US is most of all occupied to keep her own economy operating ?(for instance by maintaining low prices of raw materials, a constant flow of cheap oil, securing the foreign investments, brokering lucrative trade deals and so on ). This is my subjective assessment of the situation. The US is not so much interested in keeping the peace around the world as such. It’s mostly interested –basically like every country on earth- in securing it’s own –mostly economic- interests. The thing is : in order to keep your economy functioning, you NEED peace. In other words, peace is just a means to get to the actual goal. I do agree that the natural state of being in this world is conflict, like someone mentioned here. But conflict can not be equated with war. Conflict is the logical consequence of opposite interests. Now, I fully agree that in order to deal with conflicting interests, the multilateral approach is the best option like you mentioned. : If you show respect to them, enter into treaties and negotiations with them as an equal partner, and deal fairly with allies, they should like you. And even if they don’t like you, they would probably respect you. And yet indeed, if you look at recent history, you see a totally different picture..The United States is increasingly behaving in a very unilateral way. Why? Because the US became the only superpower in the theater of world politics after the collapse of the U.S.S.R. And she found it in her immediate interest not to be bound by all these kinds of treaties that limit the immediate freedom of action (the Kyoto Climate Treaty and the International Criminal Tribunal as an example, but there are plenty of others of course). The reason behind this is very simple: because there’s not longer a counterweight like the USSR, the US basically can do whatever she wants on the international scene. The need to co-operate with other countries, given the lack of a credible threat, is not so much apparent anymore. In the current situation, by default no single state is strong enough to oppose the US on a issue that really is important to the US. It would be very detrimental to it’s own interest, because of the power (on all kinds of levels) the US is able to wield. For that reason, the vast majority of states in the world is trying to appease the US, because it will get them much more benefits then the opposite tactic. This is a serious ‘pull-factor’ the contemporary US position brings about. Logically, this position also entails that that no one can stop the US from taking action, if they feel the urge to intervene (the Iraq crisis is gonna illustrate this in my opinion. Even if the UN Security Council vetoes the upcoming UN Resolution, the “coalition of the willing” is gonna act anyway) ; Because the US doesn’t know her equal on the international scene, the system is completely off- balance. Throughout history there have been plenty of examples of states who didn’t have their equal, because they outranked their opponents in a military/economic/diplomatic strength. This often led to a hegemonic situation. And that’s the point the US has almost arrived to, certainly if they are gonna disregard the veto of the UN Security Council, But, it’s also a normal course of events, that the more a state is gonna behave like a hegemonic, the more the other countries are gonna try to form coalitions to oppose the wielding of force of the hegemonic. In a certain sense, this is what you can see happening at the UN Security Council at the moment, with Germany/France/Russia opposing and threatening to veto the new Resolution. I think it’s not gonna help anything, but still, the mechanism of defense is there.

    Now, the war on terrorism. I believe that the US is attacked because she has been defending her own interest in the Middle East to such an extent that fundamentalist muslims are now fed up with it. Everything you mention about the killing done in the name of the US government probably is true. Whatever the case, the US most defenitly was involved in a lot of dirty events in that region. (I concur to lots of things written in the David Mancuso post on this subject) As a result and in order to defend the US self interest, a certain kind of peace was imposed. The main reason for the Al Quaeda attacks against the US therefore, according to me, is that Al Quaeda considers all Middle East governments puppet regimes, defending first and foremost foreign (read US) interests. The peace that is imposed is not the peace they want to see installed. They want these puppets out of there(in Saudi Arabia, in Egypt, in Jordany, in Quatar, in Quwait and so on) and have them replaced by a true muslim regime; The Al Quada strategy therefore focusses no doubt on dragging the muslim world along in an all out battle against the West. (I think that they must love Samuel Huntington’s writings).. My guess therefore would be they hoped for uprisings in Muslim countries during the attack on Afghanistan.. This obviously didn’t happen, and probably to the great frustration of the Al Quada . Let there be no mistake about it, I think these lunatics of terrorists who have no problem flying airplanes into building should be uprooted and exterminated. But the US line of conduct to achieve this is not the correct one. I truly believe it’s not in the interest of the US to go out and attack Iraq, under the guise of waging war on terrorism. First of all, Iraq has no proven links whatsoever with Al Quada. I doubt Al Quada is even interested in the country. Secondly, if the US is goin’ to attack Iraq and things turn tricky, resentment is only going to rise in the Middle East against the US. Do these White House people understand a lingering Irak war would be another great opportunity for Al Quada to increase the cleavages between the West and the ‘East’. Third, wouldn’t a good start be to force Israël into complying with the UN resolutions the country is neglecting for decades already ? Isn’t lack of effort/will of the US administration to do so, one of the main reasons the situation in the Middle East as such is so volatile ? Isn’t this the main threat to US interests on the long term ? I have the impression the administration is trying to fight the symptoms, and not the cause of the disease. If you want to win this war on terrorism, you first of all better make sure to pull the igniter out of the keg of gunpowder. That would serve American interests !
    peace

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    utrecht, the netherlands
    Posts
    1,613

    Post

    konbit:

    i agree with a lot you're saying, but on the other hand that would only work in an ideal world. [as others have allready pointed out]

    how often do you have an argument with someone, where at some point you can tell that the other person realizes that their argument is wrong, but still won't admit this in fear of loosing dignity?

    take a look at the usa vs. iraq [and sadam in particular] sadam has been used as a puppet by the us government in the past, and at the same time been stabbed in the back [iran contra gate]. the hate sadam carries within himself for the us will never go away, not even when the us will give financial and infrastructural help to iraq in the future.

    sometimes if nothing else helps, war is the answer. i'm still not sure if this is the case right now, though.

    jurren

  11. #11
    f0reverneverm0re Guest

    Post

    Originally posted by jurren:
    sometimes if nothing else helps, war is the answer.
    maybe sendinging over some freshbaked cookies would help??

    wars seem always to have something to do with freedom or getting something for free. how does war relate to human ambition and desire?

    war is the *answer* if you want people to forget about the economy and become too scared to speak out about the increasing collusion between business and govt.

    ..but now it's time to get stupid (well, more stupider)...

    ------------------------------

    does supporting US foreign policy make you a demon too? (on how the US helped make Saddam through "damage controlfare")

    US-IRAQ HISTORY (3 parts)

    PART 1
    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/night..._1_020917.html

    PART 2
    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/night..._2_020917.html

    PART 3
    http://abcnews.go.com/sections/night..._3_020917.html
    --------------------------------------------------

    Strategizing against the Iraq war
    http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/conte...09/15lakey.cfm

    plans for Baghdad's post-Saddam gentrification (yay scavenger humans)
    http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...540072780.html

    [ March 06, 2003, 06:18 AM: Message edited by: f0reverneverm0re ]

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Washington DC
    Posts
    9,432

    Post

    Originally posted by konbit:
    But is balancing Yin and Yang a realistic administration goal? I'm not trying to get to philosophical here. I am refering tothe current situation.


    Balancing the Yin and Yang of this situation is a more realistic goal than aiming for something that by design will NOT ever happen.

    ie. If the natural state of being is a balance of conflict and peace, then spending your efforts trying to achieve something that goes against the very nature of things is only going to spin you in circles and you will be guaranteed to never achieve any goal.

    [/QB]
    The US was meant to be based on rational thought...yet its actions are currently defying logic. Unless, of course, there are goals outside of trying to achieve what we claim we are trying to acheive. And, in a democracy, a government's goals should be transparent to the population.[/QB]
    First... this assumes that we know all of the pertinant information related to this situation, which I can assure you we do not. The notion of what is rational and what is not can change drastically depending on what knowledge you have.

    As someone else has already mentioned, there are people bearing a hatred that will NEVER be reversed, both here and abroad. More importantly, for some religious belief systems or people, the idea of "buying your respect" by catering to someone to make them happy is a greater atrocity than fighting it out and would offend them even greater and make us even that much worse in their minds....

    Then you have the countries who like us now who would hate us for catowing to some other random country, etc. You can't please everyone all the time so aiming for world peace by trying to make everyone happy is an unrealistic goal.

    As a side note, I don't think this war is a good idea at this time and I think we need to find another option for resolution of this, and I definitely think GDUBYA is a damn idiot.

    Peace
    <cfif isDefined("session.user.sense") and ('#session.user.sense#') eq '0'>
    <cfset option = delete>
    </cfif>

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,193

    Post

    f0reverneverm0re and lyot,

    I think you have both hit the nail on the head. However, my problem is that this type of discourse is absent from discussion amongst the general population. In a functioning democracy, the gap between what I see as logic and the current courses of action should be answered. The general public HAS TO know why the government is acting contrary to what seems like the best path to peace. Or, if, as you've said, peace is not the goal...the public should be aware of what is.

    Even if self-interests dictate our actions, the goal of avoiding future 9/11s seems to follow the same course as that of how to achieve peace. To avoid future 9/11s, you have to analyze why people would blow themselves up (and why this action was greeted by such joy in many parts of the world). Then, figure out how to prevent future such actions. This fake-ass "Homeland Security" nonsense obviously will do little to defend the country. And, we would never be able to kill all those that hate us (even if we could, that action would vastly increase hatred from others). So, why not cure the cause? Why not try to reduce this hate. We'll never be able to make everybody love us...but I'm sure that it would be easier (and cheaper, and morally more acceptable) to bring the level of anti-Americanism down than it is to bomb everybody and set up useless protective measures.

    As you brought up...I think the Israel-Palastine (or England-N.Ireland, or rival country/clan) situation is a great analogy. And it shows us an un-ending cycle of violence that is created when dialogue breaks down, and a bulley continuously beats up the oppressed.

    As far as being idealistic...that isn't my aim. Rather, I wanted to take a Socratic/Platonic approach (dealing in broad, idealized systems in order to arive at truths about specific realities). Honestly, even without "all the information" I think it is easy to see that decades of imperialism and unilateralism are to blame for the US' current state of affairs.

    I am most saddened to see all the Americans that are falling for all the lies. It should be easy to see that Iraq shows no threat to us. It should be easy to see that these "terror alerts" are political devices. It should be easy to see that our severing relationship with Europe and the UN will do nothing but hurt us in the long run. it shoould be easy to see that US policy is destructive, and that the majority of the world sees that.
    With desire, the world is tied down. With the subduing of desire it\'s freed. With the abandoning of desire all bonds are cut through.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    1,193

    Post

    Originally posted by DeesKo:
    More importantly, for some religious belief systems or people, the idea of "buying your respect" by catering to someone to make them happy is a greater atrocity than fighting it out and would offend them even greater and make us even that much worse in their minds....
    Like who...for example?
    With desire, the world is tied down. With the subduing of desire it\'s freed. With the abandoning of desire all bonds are cut through.

  15. #15
    mdpm99 Guest

    Post

    Konbit.....

    I am on the run @ the moment....there is lot to absorb here which I believe will be fruitful......

    Back in a minute.

    d

  16. #16
    f0reverneverm0re Guest

    Post

    going w/ what you said konbit--it seems amazing that people *apparently* have swallowed the Homeland Security "imminent threat" bunk whole.

    but there's hope, at least that as many people as possible will understand that they're being played. i heard some country music coming through a speaker at some business today and the song was about how even though 9-11 was a tragedy, there was something fishy about it and the subsequent rush to war, and how the 1st response of people shouldn't be to wrap up in the flag of their choice but to think clearly. i don't know who sings this song but i hope this dude doesn't get jumped by Lee Greenwood and others who chose to get paid off of the 9-11 patriot songs.

    from a thread that Tenyu just started, it seems like the majority of us are just pawns witnessing a game that benefits primarily the big pieces. the big piece people do things their way but say it's for the benefit of the majority.

    speaking on causes and systems--
    i feel it's up to the self to realize things for the self, especially now since there seems to be no "true" (not the scratch-my-back kind of community, but true) sense of community and beinghood. this may be the core issue: our collectively warped sense of interrelatedness, with other beings and the environment. i kill roaches for no good reason so i can't speak, but at least i understand my shortcomings. blah³..

    --i'm going to concern myself more w/ the things that unite all beings and try to be less self-centered in my thinking

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •