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Thread: please read with an open mind

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    America has come to a crossroads. You must understand that power is linked,
    in world politics, to oil. And as the greatest industrial nation on the
    Earth, America has an insatiable appetite for oil. When coal was the number
    one energy in the world, Great Britain ruled the world. She had the greatest
    deposits of coal. But when the power to move engines moved from coal to oil,
    England and America began vying for control of the places on this Earth that
    produce oil.

    Who are the rogue states that America says she does not like, and lets see
    how oil is connected here. I want you to consider Libya in North Africa.
    This little desert country where most of the people live along the coast has
    the sweetest crude oil. There’s a song we sing: From the halls of Montezuma to
    the shores of Tripoli. Where’s Tripoli? We will fight our country’s battles
    on the land and on the sea.
    [barbary pirates, i know] What are you doing over here? Did these people
    bother you? No. They have oil. America had military bases here. For what?
    Oil! They had a king named Idriss and Muammar Gadhafi, as a young man in a
    bloodless coup, overthrew the king and then kicked the British out, the
    Americans out, and nationalized the oil. Now he could raise the standard of
    living of all the Libyans, and with money left over he could aid the
    liberation struggle of people all over the world. America got very upset
    with that. Youre messing with us, Gadhafi. Youre a terrorist.

    Iraq has a lot of oil, and next door is Iran which has lots of oil. In Iran,
    there was a man by the name of Mohammad Mossadegh and he nationalized the
    oil. He wanted to use the oil to raise the standard of living of the Iranian
    people.

    Whats wrong with that? Theres nothing wrong with that to our eyes, but
    something was wrong with that to the eyes of the rich and the powerful. So
    they organized a coup and overthrew him and placed a man on the throne called
    the Shah of Iran, Mohammad Reza Pahlavi. As that was their man in Iran, they
    gave him weapons, modern planes, but he was a Muslim, but he was not deep in
    the religion. So under him, the religion suffered. So the people that
    wanted their religion to come back to purity started organizing. The leader
    of that was Imam Khomeini.

    Look at a map of the Middle Eastern part of the world. In Saudi Arabia, there
    is a whole lot of oil. President [Franklin Delano] Roosevelt struck up a good
    < relationship with the king, and Aramco [Corporation] had access to all this
    oil. The kings lived well, they did well for their people, but there was no
    democracy. America doesnt care anything about that, just keep pumping the oil.

    Every one of us has somebody in our family that is a victim of drugs. Theres
    something about a drug addictif its your son, if its your daughterthey become
    artful liars. They can make up the fanciest stories just to get money to get
    to the drug. If you dont give them the money, when you turn your back, your
    fur coat is gone. When you turn your back this is gone, that is gone. They
    become thieves and soon, if they get real bad, they become murderers.

    America is an oil junkie. She doesnt care how she gets it, she must have it.

    Did you know that they found the largest deposit of oil anywhere in the
    world? Guess where they found it? In the southern Sudan. And what America is
    trying to do is foster the revolution to break off the southern Sudan from
    the Islamic regime in Khartoum so that America can have access to the oil.
    But they say its them Moslems killing Christians, making slaves out of these
    people in the South. America sent arms to Eritrea and Ethiopia and Uganda. So
    all along the border of Sudan, war was started with the Sudan. But something
    happened. Eritrea started using her weapons against Ethiopia, and vice versa.
    So [Eritrea and Ethiopia] couldnt give the Sudan the trouble that America
    wanted.

    You dont know these things because you dont travel. You dont know these
    things because youre not interested. You dont know these things because
    foreign policy is not for the common American. And that we have to change. I
    believe that if the American people knew, foreign policy [would reflect] that
    which is better for the American people.

    Lets go to Nigeria. Theres some sweet oil here. Do you know what America
    tried to do? They tried to separate the eastern region and call it Biafra,
    which started a civil war in Nigeria, causing thousands upon thousands of
    lives to be lost because of American foreign policy. Lets go back to
    Afghanistan. Do you see this place called Baku? Oil has been coming out of
    this area for years and years. But the Soviet Union had control of the oil in
    Kazakhstan, in Uzbekistan and in Tajikistan. All this area the Soviet Union
    had.

    Have you ever heard of Zbignew Brezinski? Zbignew got us in trouble. He was
    the national security adviser under President Jimmy Carter. Guess what? Show
    me Afghanistan. Did you know that in the city of Kabul, some 20 years ago,
    the Muslims, women were in government, they were in school, they were in
    medicine. But something was wrong with Afghanistan. Do you know what was
    wrong? The government in Kabul leaned more toward the Soviet Union. They were
    Muslims but they had a socialist leaning that America didnt like. So Zbignew
    Brezinski and American policy sent money into Afghanistan to destabilize the
    government in Kabul. When they brought up and paid for opposition to the
    government in Kabul, Russia, the Soviet Union, sent their troops into
    Afghanistan and the war began.

    When the war started, Osama bin Laden was in Arabia growing up. He loves
    Islam, he loves Muslims, he sees the Soviet Union taking over Afghanistan and
    theres war in Afghanistan to get the Soviet Union out, and America says, Were
    going to back those Muslim mujahideen. So American money and American weapons
    trained them and they drove the Soviet Union out after ten years of war,
    which left Afghanistan in ruins. Then they looked to America to help them,
    but America backed out and left them in that condition and a civil war broke
    out in Afghanistan. The country is already in ruins, now a civil war. Then
    you have the Taliban that comes to power. And they want a pure Islamic state.

    I read a book written by two Frenchman called, Osama bin Laden: The Forbidden
    Truth. And they said that early on in the Bush administration he was
    negotiating with the Taliban and he said [the Taliban] were a source of
    stability. Why was he negotiating? Let me tell you. All of this, Kazakhstan,
    Uzbekistan, this is oil. And guess what? A company called Unical owns 75
    percent of the oil up here. And what they wanted was a pipeline to come down
    through Afghanistan into Pakistan into the Arabian Sea, the Indian Ocean, as
    an outlet for the oil of that area. The Taliban didnt agree.

    Back in July, an American representative met with the Taliban, sometimes in
    the UN, sometimes right in Peshawar, in Pakistan. The representative said
    either you accept a carpet of gold or we will bury you under a carpet of
    bombs. This was in July. Then came September 11, and now its Osama bin Laden.
    The government didnt know anything about any terrorists the day before. But
    on September 11, 12, and 13, they have 19 faces in the paper saying these are
    the guys. When did you learn that? How did you learn that? Something is wrong
    with this picture. Muslims and Arabs got all the blame and they went
    immediately to the Congress beating the drums of war.

    Do you want to know why people in the world hate America? You dont understand
    the dirt that goes on in your name. And thats why the American people have to
    be awakened. Am I upsetting? Im not trying to upset you. But now that theyve
    destroyed the Taliban, Mr. Hamid Karzai, whom America set up, he now will get
    the carpet of gold and lets see if that pipeline wont come through
    Afghanistan. Its all about oil and power.

    Therefore, the hatred for the American government and its policiesnot for the
    American peopleis not subsiding, but increasing. If the United States attacks
    Iraq, that hatred will only be worse and the cycle of violence that is now
    seen in acts that are called terrorist acts will only increase.

    We should be asking President Bush and the Congress, appealing to the
    fairness of the American people, that before one American soldier should be
    put in harms way, or one bomb dropped on Iraq, that there should and there
    must be congressional hearings. That this proposed war be debated, and that
    those who desire war with Iraq, put before the American people the reasons
    that justify such action and allow the scholars and scientists who disagree
    with the Administrations position to testify that the American people may
    hear both sides of this question, and then prevail upon our representatives
    in Congress to represent the will of the majority of the American people, and
    not the will of any lobby, no matter how strong that lobby may be.

    It would be just and appropriate if the Congress of the United States would
    invite representatives of the Iraqi government to come before Congress of the
    United States and defend themselves and their position.

    In closing, no nation, no matter how powerful it may be, can sustain its
    power if its evil outweighs its good and it exceeds the limits in the doing
    of injustice. There is a force in nature that God has placed in this universe
    that will move against an individual, a nation or a world when it exceeds the
    limit and becomes unjust in its behavior. Such was the case of Pharaoh. Such
    was the case of Rome and Babylon, Sodom and Gomorrah, Ancient Nineveh. We
    must not allow such to be the case for the greatest and only remaining
    superpower, the United States of America.

    [ March 04, 2003, 08:11 PM: Message edited by: david mancuso ]

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    Wow!!!! That was DEEP !! Thank you very much david m. I am a staunch patriot and I do love America. But, if all the stuff you say is true, we are guilty of some seriously evil, dirty and lowdown sh*t. The analogy of the junky really drove home the point! We all know that a drug addict will say or do ANYTHING for that next fix... I know the U.S. struggles constantly to meet her demand for crude oil. Its kinda sad because I do not believe this country is inherently evil. But, to circumvent the enormous crisis an oil shortage would bring, I believe our government WILL use and HAS used any and all means necessary... Understand that it causes me great pain to admit this. But, you've presented the facts in a way that I cannot ignore or discount or rebut... I also agree that many (most) of us are completely in the dark concerning U.S. foreign policy. And that's the way our government likes it.

    -HML
    Tell me and I forget, show me and I remember, involve me and I understand...

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    good post dave....many points have been covered by the likes of chomsky, barsamian and hitchens...but its nice to see a condensed version here
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    you read chomsky, buddy love?

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    Originally posted by dVine:
    you read chomsky, buddy love?
    i read everything...thats why i'm so ****ing brilliant
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.

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    Originally posted by dVine:
    than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.
    how would you know what i've read?......ASSumption i suppose?...and why do you think that if i read it i would believe it ? another ASSumption..i subscribe to the Nation and National Review...what do you ASSume from that?

    now siddown and shut the **** up, you ASSumer

    Buddy Love
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
    than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.
    how would you know what i've read?......ASSumption i suppose?...and why do you think that if i read it i would believe it ? another ASSumption..i subscribe to the Nation and National Review...what do you ASSume from that?

    now siddown and shut the **** up, you ASSumer

    Buddy Love
    </font>[/QUOTE]ps...while chomsky is a brilliant linguist who's work has redefind the field; and also an amazing social theorist whos factual observations on politics, communication and world affirs are brilliant - he is NOT and has never claimed to be an economist so his views in said area can be taken as such...while i agree with samuelson numbers vis a vis theory, it would be nice to see a model which supports his theories

    Buddy Love, BS Economics Hofstra University
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    Great post David. Gore Vidal shares some of the same info in his article in the Observer, Sunday 27th October 2002. What amazes me is that so many dangerously ignorant Americans are so pro-war, they don't even know what the war is about and why the U.S. has enemies in the first place. I've learned more about American foreign policy when I left America than when I'm here in America, which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.
    "I bet you argue with yourself just to make a point." -- bkny11203
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    Originally posted by djmarbll:
    , which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.
    wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
    , which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.
    wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

    Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.

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    Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
    than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.
    how would you know what i've read?......ASSumption i suppose?...and why do you think that if i read it i would believe it ? another ASSumption..i subscribe to the Nation and National Review...what do you ASSume from that?

    now siddown and shut the **** up, you ASSumer

    Buddy Love
    </font>[/QUOTE]ps...while chomsky is a brilliant linguist who's work has redefind the field; and also an amazing social theorist whos factual observations on politics, communication and world affirs are brilliant - he is NOT and has never claimed to be an economist so his views in said area can be taken as such...while i agree with samuelson numbers vis a vis theory, it would be nice to see a model which supports his theories

    Buddy Love, BS Economics Hofstra University
    </font>[/QUOTE]What views on econ are you talking about?
    Ever listened to the spoken-word CD "Class War"? It essentially outlines how free trade has effectively lowered domestic wages by opening the US up to foreign labour markets, thereby forcing union to re-negotiate contracts at lower wages. Sounds like economics to me.

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    Originally posted by dVine:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
    , which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.
    wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

    Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.
    </font>[/QUOTE]we have plenty of foreign news publications in all the major cities of the u.s.a....because this country is a collection of foreigners..theres lso an invention called the internet...

    as far as our education system..the rest of the world sends their people HERE...frigging commie
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.

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    Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
    , which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.
    wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

    Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.
    </font>[/QUOTE]we have plenty of foreign news publications in all the major cities of the u.s.a....because this country is a collection of foreigners..theres lso an invention called the internet...

    as far as our education system..the rest of the world sends their people HERE...frigging commie
    </font>[/QUOTE]new york is not "the USA". not everyone has access to the internet. USA today prints lies.

    i'm talking education at the elementary/secondary levels. its bred a nation of sheep, run by wolves and financed by pigs.

  16. #16
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    Originally posted by dVine:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
    than you haven't read his theories about wage slavery. if you did you wouldn't be talking like such a tool.
    how would you know what i've read?......ASSumption i suppose?...and why do you think that if i read it i would believe it ? another ASSumption..i subscribe to the Nation and National Review...what do you ASSume from that?

    now siddown and shut the **** up, you ASSumer

    Buddy Love
    </font>[/QUOTE]ps...while chomsky is a brilliant linguist who's work has redefind the field; and also an amazing social theorist whos factual observations on politics, communication and world affirs are brilliant - he is NOT and has never claimed to be an economist so his views in said area can be taken as such...while i agree with samuelson numbers vis a vis theory, it would be nice to see a model which supports his theories

    Buddy Love, BS Economics Hofstra University
    </font>[/QUOTE]What views on econ are you talking about?
    Ever listened to the spoken-word CD "Class War"? It essentially outlines how free trade has effectively lowered domestic wages by opening the US up to foreign labour markets, thereby forcing union to re-negotiate contracts at lower wages. Sounds like economics to me.
    </font>[/QUOTE]"the gross gdp of the entie southwest region of the usa is dependent upon migrant workers crossing the border in search of higher wages"

    gee, that sounds like economics too...its also false

    sounds like don't mean it is

    ps obviously you're talking shit ..."wage slavery" is the view i'm talking about...obviously like a monkey you're pulling shit out of your ass and throwing it up on the wall to see if it sticks

    don't blame me...YOU brought it up - try to follow YOUR OWN arguments - it aint that hard - just remember what YOU"RE talking about ( then again, if i weren't rhetoricizing i'd forget that dumb shit too)
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    Originally posted by dVine:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
    , which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.
    wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

    Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.
    </font>[/QUOTE]we have plenty of foreign news publications in all the major cities of the u.s.a....because this country is a collection of foreigners..theres lso an invention called the internet...

    as far as our education system..the rest of the world sends their people HERE...frigging commie
    </font>[/QUOTE]new york is not "the USA". not everyone has access to the internet. USA today prints lies.

    i'm talking education at the elementary/secondary levels. its bred a nation of sheep, run by wolves and financed by pigs.
    </font>[/QUOTE]where did i say "new york"...reading is fundamental dude...awwwwww you're having meltdown already
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

  18. #18
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    Originally posted by dVine:
    dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.
    uh huh......so fabulous and yet still without a name...better get an endowment going son
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    "the gross gdp of the entie southwest region of the usa is dependent upon migrant workers crossing the border in search of higher wages"

    gee, that sounds like economics too...its also false
    where did you get this from?

    "entie" - chomsky doesn't hire editors anymore?

    the gross GDP of the entire southwest region?

    please, GDP = Consumption + Investment + Gov't Spending + Net Change in Imports.

    You said this is false. Use the model above and explain yourself.

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    Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
    dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.
    uh huh......so fabulous and yet still without a name...better get an endowment going son</font>[/QUOTE]I stand on my own, no nead to flaunt my credentials or the publications I subscribe to.

    And I would never be proud to publically state that I subscribe to "The Nation".

    [ March 04, 2003, 10:23 PM: Message edited by: dVine ]

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    Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
    dVine B.A. (Econ), from an economics department that ranks 12th out of 20 in the world.
    uh huh......so fabulous and yet still without a name...better get an endowment going son</font>[/QUOTE]yeah, you could use it.

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    Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by dVine:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by djmarbll:
    , which shows that American citizens are being duped into contentful ignorance by it's own media and gov't.
    wrong...americans are being duped because we're a bunch of lazy self absorbed ****s who don't know shit about our own governments let alone world affairs....when leading fools ya don't have to be specific, as dubya proves every day of his presidency</font>[/QUOTE]Well, the fact that any foreign media voices are absent from your news stands doesn't seem to help.

    Also, the education system is one of memorization and regurgitation. Completely absent from the curriculum are courses/exercises enforcing the the concept of critical thinking.
    </font>[/QUOTE]we have plenty of foreign news publications in all the major cities of the u.s.a....because this country is a collection of foreigners..theres lso an invention called the internet...

    as far as our education system..the rest of the world sends their people HERE...frigging commie
    </font>[/QUOTE]new york is not "the USA". not everyone has access to the internet. USA today prints lies.

    i'm talking education at the elementary/secondary levels. its bred a nation of sheep, run by wolves and financed by pigs.
    </font>[/QUOTE]where did i say "new york"...reading is fundamental dude...awwwwww you're having meltdown already
    </font>[/QUOTE]We're talking about the US education system. It sucks. Let's stay on point here.

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    pretty slow there buddy holly

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    Originally posted by dVine:
    </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by your idol, Buddy Love:
    "the gross gdp of the entie southwest region of the usa is dependent upon migrant workers crossing the border in search of higher wages"

    where did you get this from?

    "entie" - chomsky doesn't hire editors anymore?

    the gross GDP of the entire southwest region?

    please, GDP = Consumption + Investment + Gov't Spending + Net Change in Imports.

    You said this is false. Use the model above and explain yourself.
    </font>[/QUOTE]"gee, that sounds like economics too...its also false"

    was the above statement to subtle for you...damn..terrorist must be adding IQ lowering agents to the water
    As for the charges against me, I am unconcerned. I am beyond their timid lying morality, and so I am beyond caring.

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    Wonderful point of view. Well stated.
    Music is the way I live.

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