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Thread: After U.S. Breakthrough, Europe Looks in Mirror

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    After U.S. Breakthrough, Europe Looks in Mirror

    Interesting article. Negso, your thoughts?

    After U.S. Breakthrough, Europe Looks in Mirror
    By STEVEN ERLANGER

    PARIS — In the general European euphoria over the election of Barack Obama, there is the beginning of self-reflection about Europe’s own troubles with racial integration. Many are asking if there could be a French, British, German or Italian Obama, and everyone knows the answer is no, not anytime soon.

    It is risky to make racial comparisons between America and Europe, given all the historical and cultural differences. But race had long been one reason that Europeans, harking back to the days when famous American blacks like Josephine Baker and James Baldwin found solace in France, looked down on the United States, even as Europe developed postcolonial racial problems of its own.

    “They always said, ‘You think race relations are bad here in France, check out the U.S.,’ ” said Mohamed Hamidi, former editor of the Bondy Blog, founded after the 2005 riots in the heavily immigrant suburbs of Paris.

    “But that argument can no longer stand,” he said.

    For many immigrants to Europe, Mr. Obama’s victory is “a small revolution” toward better overall treatment of minorities, said Nadia Azieze, 31, an Algerian-born nurse who grew up here. “It will never be the same,” she said, over a meal of rice and lamb in the racially mixed Paris neighborhood of Barbès-Rochechouart.

    Her sister, Cherine, 29, is a computer engineer. Mr. Obama “really represents the dream of America — if you work, you can make it,” she said. “It’s a hope for the entire world.”

    But the sisters are less optimistic about the realities of France, where minorities have a limited political role, with only one black deputy elected to the National Assembly from mainland France.

    Has the Obama election caused any real self-reflection among the majority here? “It’s politically correct to say, ‘O.K., great! He’s black,’ and clap,” Nadia said. “But deep down, there’s no change. People say one thing and believe another.”

    In all the jobs she has ever had, she said, “I’ve always been asked to do more, because I’m an immigrant. We always have to prove ourselves.”

    Down the street, picking through the cheap clothes on sidewalk stands, Fatou Diedhiou, 34, born in Senegal, said that Mr. Obama’s victory may make the French give blacks “a bit of respect.” But she finds deep racism among the French, who she says “think that all blacks are illiterate and can’t do anything but clean.”

    Mr. Obama is an exceptional figure even in the United States, a nation of immigrants with a long and complex history of racial problems going back to the Indian wars and the extensive slave trade, which produced a bloody civil war.

    Most European countries were relatively monoethnic until the postcolonial period. Britain, for example, was largely white until the mid-20th century and still does not have a substantial black middle class, while French immigrants are almost all from former French colonies in North Africa, like Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia, or in black Africa, like Mali, Senegal and Ivory Coast.

    Measured by political representation of minorities, both the United States and Europe seem lagging, though Mr. Obama’s victory seemed to underscore how much farther behind Europe is.

    Mr. Obama is the only black in the current Senate, and unless he is replaced by an African-American, the new Senate will have none. The new House has 39 black representatives, about 9 percent. Blacks make up about 13 percent of the country’s population.

    But Rama Yade, the Senegal-born state secretary for human rights, called herself “a painful exception” in the French government, despite President Nicolas Sarkozy’s appointment of three prominent black or Muslim women to his government. As for the political elite’s embrace of Mr. Obama, she said, “The enthusiasm they express toward this far-away American, they don’t have it for the minorities in France.”

    It is not only immigrants who are pondering what Mr. Obama’s victory says about Europe. France’s defense minister, Hervé Morin, called the Obama victory “a lesson” for a French democracy late to adopt integration.

    “In this election, the Americans not only chose a president, but also their identity,” said Dominique Moïsi, a French political analyst. “And now we have to think, too, about our identity in France — it’s the most challenging election ever. We realize we are late, and America has regained the torch of a moral revolution.”

    In Italy, Jean-Léonard Touadi, the only black member of the Italian Parliament, sees the Obama victory similarly. It is “a great and concrete provocation to European society and European politics,” said Mr. Touadi, born in the Congo Republic. Mr. Obama gives hope, he said, that “one day” there can be a similar outcome in Europe.

    But not soon. Hossain Moazzem, a Bangladeshi waiter at L’Insalata Ricca restaurant, said he hoped Mr. Obama’s victory would foster “change all over the world.” But Italy, he said, had a “long, long” way to go.

    In Britain, too, there was skepticism. Trevor Phillips, the black chairman of the independent Equality and Human Rights Commission, said that the political system held immigrants back. “If Barack Obama had lived here, I would be very surprised if even somebody as brilliant as him would have been able to break through the institutional stranglehold that there is on power,” he told The Times of London.

    Britain has several minority ministers below cabinet rank, but just 15 nonwhites in the 646-member House of Commons. The parliamentary system makes it harder for a young person or an outsider to emerge.

    “In Britain, you can’t make a brilliant speech and get noticed the way Barack Obama did,” Sadiq Khan, a Labor minister, told The Guardian. “You have to rise up through the ranks in Parliament.”

    But Ashok Viswanathan, assistant director of Operation Black Vote, which works to engage members of minorities in politics, predicted that Britain could have a party leader from a minority in the next 10 to 15 years, and a minority member as prime minister in 30.

    “If someone said two years ago that there would be a black president, most people would have laughed that person out of town,” he said. “The very nature of aspiration is when barriers are broken, whether in flying to the moon or being the first black person around a cabinet table — it’s something that nobody believes will happen.”

    Germany is yet a different case, with its largest immigrant population invited from Turkey to work in West German factories in the 1960s and 1970s. Germany now has some 2.9 million inhabitants of Turkish background, 800,000 of them with German citizenship under new laws. But they have little political representation in the unified Germany of 82 million, with just 5 members of the 613-seat Bundestag.

    Even Cem Ozdemir, Germany’s best-known ethnic Turkish politician, currently a European legislator, is having trouble getting on the Greens Party list of candidates for the Bundestag — in part because of internal opposition to his ambition to lead the party.

    “Germans can’t believe a Turkish politician believes in a politics for Germany,” said Mely Kiyak, 32, a German-born daughter of Turkish parents who wrote a book, “Ten for Germany,” about the problems of ethnic Turkish politicians. “The Germans think, ‘This is our country. Why should we elect a Turk? He might want to Islamicize the country.”‘

    The Germans love Mr. Obama, she said, “but we don’t have minorities anywhere, not in media, in politics, in the executive or the judiciary.”

    Ferdi Sarikurt, 22, who works in a bakery in Berlin’s Kreuzberg district, came to Germany at age 1 and is a citizen. A German Obama is beyond his imagination, he said. “The German government would not allow this to happen because it would think that a person with an immigrant background would favor the foreigners. Maybe this will change when I am 50 years old, if at all.”

    But Ms. Kiyak said the Obama victory was causing significant reflection in the immigrant community, if not yet in the country at large. “Minorities see what is possible in another country, and they become jealous,” she said, noting that President Abdullah Gul of Turkey said recently in Der Spiegel that Turkish Germans “should take part in German society and politics and not look back.”

    Given that France has such close ties to its former colonies and more Muslims than any other country in Europe, the debate here is more complicated.

    On Sunday, numerous politicians signed a manifesto written by Yazid Sabeg, a millionaire child of Algerian immigrants, calling for affirmative-action programs to turn the supposedly colorblind French ideal of equality into reality for alienated immigrants.

    “The election of Barack Obama highlights via a cruel contrast the shortcomings of the French Republic and the distance that separates us from a country whose citizens knew how to go beyond the racial question,” the manifesto said. It won support from Mr. Sarkozy’s wife, Carla, who told Le Journal du Dimanche, “our prejudices are insidious” and hoped the “Obama effect” would help to reshape society.

    But the French model of citizenship does not allow for official distinctions by race or religion. When a legislative official here was asked for data on the number of black or Muslim legislators, he told a reporter to “look at the pictures on the Senate directory,” to judge by name and skin color.

    Joseph Macé-Scaron, writing in the French-language weekly Marianne, said that the discussion of a “French Obama” was a diversion and a screen, substituting a false American model onto France. The problem here, as in other parts of Europe, he said, was less the rejection of nonwhite immigrants than the way political and cultural elites patronized and used them, “only to better block access to the top of the social ladder.”

    Praising “the ‘difference’ of nonwhites locked them inside identities of resentment,” he said.

    But the conservative Le Figaro blamed French minorities themselves for part of their exclusion. The paper noted that Mr. Obama’s success was based on his upbringing, education and success at integrating into the larger society and articulating its values, including patriotism.

    “From this point of view, Obama should be the model to follow for young immigrants who have come to doubt their feeling of belonging to the nation,” the paper said. “Minorities, who have chosen their exile, in contrast to black Americans, still have a lot to prove.”

  2. #2
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    ...

  3. #3
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    Hang on, I've got two more hours of work...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ngeso View Post
    Hang on, I've got two more hours of work...
    Just wanted to make sure you had a chance to read it before it dropped off the board.

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    A German perspective:

    Obviously the recent U.S. presidential election was viewed with a lot of popular fascination in Europe as elsewhere. That said, I think the situations regarding black political leaders vary from country to country.

    What characterises the German situation in a nutshell is

    - Germany's historic status as one of the pre-eminent European source nations of emigration to the New World, as opposed to being a destination of immigration (a common European characteristic);
    - the loss WW I with the resultant relinquishment of all colonies; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...erial_colonies)
    - the loss of WW II as a direct result of reaction to collective racist German self-perception and socio-political ideology
    - post WW II catharsis and the inherent flaw of the system of Gastarbeiter-Migration; (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gastarb...cal_background)
    - the practically inherent acceptance and propagation of blood and soil ideology as the imperative benchmark defining German identity - as opposed to New World type declaration. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blut_und_boden)


    In other words, Germany has no modern, critical, applicable experience in dealing with migration as a positive socio-political influence, quality or source of progressive identity on par with anything remotely comparable with the New World or even other Western European experiences (particularly England, France, Benelux and Portugal).

    Specifically Germany has no experience with black people or black cultures. What strikes me about the broadband fascination with Barack Obama is how painfully naive, childlike and immature it is in relation to the at times shocking realities of B/W race relations in this country. And I'm not talking about unexposed, uneducated rural or mountain folk - I'm talking about in other respects savvy, educated metropolitan Germany. Black people here exist as one of three possible variants: 1)sportspeople, 2)entertainers and 3)modern "serfs" (janitors, cab drivers, messengers, short-order cooks, etc.) - including all the commonly associated clichés. The most that identifiably black people have progressed in this country is moderating afternoon music television programmes and an infuriatingly disproportionate presence in United-Colors-of-Benettonish visual advertising media. That's as positive as it gets.

    Everyone else is perceived as a non-German economic refugee and a foreigner - even if third generation German-born and socialised.

    There are no black politicians, mayors, doctors, lawyers, judges, CEOs, media moguls, news anchors, football club owners, pilots, army generals, navy admirals, police chiefs (or regular patrol cops for that matter), college professors, bishops, contemporary German language writers, painters, sculptors, philosophers or prominent civil rights advocates. So even while we do exist, we do not exist.

    That is the stark reality between a country that has voted Barack Obama into the highest possible level of representation and Germany.

    Do I think we will have an identifiably black chancellor any time soon?

    I cannot imagine that.



    What IS possible is that the Green Party will be run by two immigrant sons in the foreseeable future (Cem Özdemir and Tarek al-Wazir), and that is something to look forward to, at least.


    ...
    Last edited by ngeso; 11-12-2008 at 02:38 PM.

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    Hahaha.. DHP not giving this the time of day.. Common people.. this is a great topic. I know it's some other country n'shit.

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    Ngeso,

    Thanks for giving us another perspective. It's always interesting to hear how folks of African descent fare elsewhere. What percentage of the German population is of African descent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by TonyB View Post
    Ngeso,

    Thanks for giving us another perspective. It's always interesting to hear how folks of African descent fare elsewhere. What percentage of the German population is of African descent?


    There are no precise figures, as there are no means to perform race-specific censuses in this country. German legal custom does not make provisions for racial profiling, so we do not tick any boxes like you do in America.

    It is estimated that between approximately 300.000 and 500.000 identifiably black people live in Germany. This includes up to 100.000 Afrodeutsche (i.e. B/W mixed-race indigenous Germans) as well as around 200.000 to 300.000 more recent black African immigrants, refugees and sans papiers (and growing). There are also sizeable ethnic Magrhebine communities (probably another 150.000 or so).

    ...

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    Thanks for your interesting input Negso.

    France also does not count persons by race although there is some possibility that may be change.

    Racial progress in Europe is not going to be measured in an Obama like PM or president. That's not a fair requirement, as European minorities are relatively new migrants (compared to blacks in the US) and are no where near the % of the population minorities are in US.

    What's sadly lacking in many European countries are real opportunities (educational and career) for the children and grandchildren of minorities born in Europe. Europe is very far behind the US in that critical area.
    Last edited by MarkK; 11-12-2008 at 02:59 PM.

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    Great topic... too bad I don't have anything worthwhile to add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Detroitbootybass View Post
    Great topic... too bad I don't have anything worthwhile to add.

    haha, same.

    Interesting to hear your perspective Ngeso.

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    Great read.

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    I'll concur with ngeso, but I do know of a ghanian doctor in kassel. I used to do parties with one of his daughters, an event pr spokeswoman. another daughter is also a doctor, and the son is on one of hte football teams. 500,000 is less than one percent of the population. Berlin is a bit more mixed.

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    Very interesting the differences between European and American racial relations.
    American race relations is very painful, but very in your face. Maybe that's why we've progressed as much as we have. No pain, no gain. Not to make light of the struggles of minorities in Europe.
    Hopefully Obama will have a successful presidency and it'll send a message to the rest of the world that non-native folks can make positive contributions to society. Keep hope alive.
    One question Ngeso, do you guys have a figure comparable to MLK or Malcom X? Or at least someone who tries to keep the issue of civil rights in the public eye?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Armen View Post
    Hahaha.. DHP not giving this the time of day ...
    'cause some mugs said they were moving to Europe, if McCain won
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    Real quick..Is this saying that Obama winning is making an impact on a race relations on a global scale?
    All I want is the music and no one will get hurt.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dag View Post
    I'll concur with ngeso, but I do know of a ghanian doctor in kassel. I used to do parties with one of his daughters, an event pr spokeswoman. another daughter is also a doctor, and the son is on one of hte football teams. 500,000 is less than one percent of the population. Berlin is a bit more mixed.



    What I was driving at is that from a white, christian, German perspective black people are not allowed to exist in the professional, educated, moneyed social realm, and are not depicted or promoted as such.

    I myself am an educated, degree-ed professional, and like you I also associate with a small number of black doctors, engineers and university lecturers.

    But that does not deflect from the hard fact that within German society we are not at all deemed as representative, presentable or worth representation.

    The adoration of Barack Obama in this country is a singularly mindless, hysterical phenomenon, that has neither foundation nor bearing on German reality. It is simply a feel-good moment for 75 million Germans to cheat themselves past their compound ignorance into the - to me unnervingly ridiculous - belief that they are in any way open-minded, progressive or capable of dealing with the complexities of integration, assimilation and manifest multiculture.

    [The most progress I have seen in race terms in this country is having two black players on Germany's national football side at the same time. We have yet to see an ethnic Turkish midfield general or captain. Meanwhile France has been fielding nothing but all-black squads for the last fifteen years.]

    ...
    Last edited by ngeso; 11-13-2008 at 06:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackJeff View Post
    One question Ngeso, do you guys have a figure comparable to MLK or Malcom X? Or at least someone who tries to keep the issue of civil rights in the public eye?

    No.

    There has never been a complex public civil rights debate or movement encompassing any aspects aside gender equity in this country. If we ever enter a civil rights debate regarding race and ethnicity, the protagonists will most likely be Turkish or Maghrebine.



    As regards black people, they remain socially and politically isolated from each other. There are no common black identifiers or causes in Germany because there is no common black experience.

    If anything, there exists a palpable social, ideological and systematically racist rift between light-skinned, half-white, ethnically disconnected Afrodeutsche and black African immigrants.

    The former group is typically completely removed from its geo-ethnic origin. Most mixed-race black Germans navigate aimlessly between a dominant, assimilatory white culture of presence of the mother, and an elusive or repressed black culture of absence of the father. (Traditionally fathers have been pre-WWI colonial immigrants, American soldiers, African students and vagabond entertainers. The recent emergence of first-generation mixed-race Germans out of white male/black female unions is a now-generation phenomenon facillitated by new male mating tendencies as well as new trends in black female immigration into the EU. The impact of black mothering on mixed-race Germans may yield an interesting subject of examination at some future stage.)

    This loss of origin has led to the emergence of a number of political activist (originally black feminist) organisations, that paradoxically source the New World black experience of abduction, transportation, slavery and emancipation as the primary identification reference for all black people in Germany.

    In other words: the Afrodeutsche identity is based almost entirely on imagination and pretension rather than on actual experience. It remains to be seen how demographic shifts through changing immigration patterns inform that identity.

    ...
    Last edited by ngeso; 11-13-2008 at 08:49 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ngeso View Post
    What I was driving at is that from a white, christian, German perspective black people are not allowed to exist in the professional, educated, moneyed social realm, and are not depicted or promoted as such.

    I myself am an educated, degree-ed professional, and like you I also associate with a small number of black doctors, engineers and university lecturers.

    But that does not deflect from the hard fact that within German society we are not at all deemed as representative, presentable or worth representation.

    The adoration of Barack Obama in this country is a singularly mindless, hysterical phenomenon, that has neither foundation nor bearing on German reality. It is simply a feel-good moment for 75 million Germans to cheat themselves past their compound ignorance into the - to me unnervingly ridiculous - belief that they are in any way open-minded, progressive or capable of dealing with the complexities of integration, assimilation and manifest multiculture.

    [The most progress I have seen in race terms in this country is having two black players on Germany's national football side at the same time. We have yet to see an ethnic Turkish midfield general or captain. Meanwhile France has been fielding nothing but all-black squads for the last fifteen years.]

    ...
    Co-sign. From my experience and time here can I only agree fully with this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshawn View Post
    Real quick..Is this saying that Obama winning is making an impact on a race relations on a global scale?

    I doubt that Obama's election victory will have a lasting, progressive impact in Europe or Asia where race relations are concerned, particularly if it turns out to be a bad presidency. Most people here view Obama like a pop star, a black James Bond, an exciting curiosity. They think it's cool to have a black guy in charge because it makes a rose-tinted view a little more rose-tinted still.

    In Africa on the other hand Barack Obama will remain a hero forever and ever. He is now beyond failure and sin. He has graduated into the upper pantheon alongside Nkrumah, Senghor, Lumumba, Mandela, Sisulu, Tutu and Michael Jackson.

    ...

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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigshawn View Post
    Real quick..Is this saying that Obama winning is making an impact on a race relations on a global scale?
    There's more comment on it, whether that's an improvement is another question.

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    PARIS — In the general European euphoria over the election of Barack Obama, there is the beginning of self-reflection about Europe’s own troubles with racial integration. Many are asking if there could be a French, British, German or Italian Obama, and everyone knows the answer is no, not anytime soon.
    Most European countries were relatively monoethnic until the postcolonial period. Britain, for example, was largely white until the mid-20th century and still does not have a substantial black middle class, while French immigrants are almost all from former French colonies in North Africa, like Algeria, Morocco and Tunisia, or in black Africa, like Mali, Senegal and Ivory Coast.

    There has already been a European "Obama".

    The supreme ruler of Alban during one portion of the tenth century was, we have been told, Kenneth(or Cinaed) alias "Niger" or "Dubh," - "The Black." He seems to have reigned for some years over "white" provinces, as well as those inhabited by people of his colour; but he is particularised as "The Black,-of the three black divisions.
    We have guessed that one division of the posterity of this powerful black king, of the tenth century, became known to Gaelic-speaking people as the Maga Dubh (shortened into Mac Duff) or "the clan of The Black:" which race was for a long time paramount in the kingdom of Fibh(Fife)-itself, in all probability, one of "the three black divisions."
    -ANCIENT AND MODERN BRITONS(V.II) by David MacRitchie


    The falsehoods and global lies have been used to keep "minorites" in a perpetual second class standing. They have you beliving that Obama is the "first" but they hide the truth to keep themselves in power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by alvin View Post
    There has already been a European "Obama".


    No. There. Hasn't.


    Please please PLEASE, for the love of God leave out the Moor stuff - we all know.

    ...

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    Before the Atlantic slave trade began, racism justifying slavery in medieval Spain and Portugal was aimed at people with light skin. Although there were some enslaved blacks there, SLAVE STATUS WAS IDENTIFIED WITH WHITES. The very word "SLAVE", is DERIVED FROM "SLAV": whites who were captured in Eastern Europe and shipped into medieval Spain in large numbers.
    -SLAVERY AND AFRICAN ETHNICITIES IN THE AMERICAS by Gwendolyn Midlo Hall(2005)

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