After U.S. Breakthrough, Europe Looks in Mirror

[Ish]

If the "black individual" realized he/she IS German "culture"...this foolishness that is named "racism" will cease.

I find this highly questionable. If suddenyly all the black folks in Germany considered themselves rightfull owners of the german land and cultural ancestry, it would not change a thing in how that society treated them and classified them. One can feel like the world is theirs, but if that same world disagrees with them and, their reality will still be a difficult one.

So you state that my "side argument"(ie. origin of man, distorted educational cirriculum, revisionist history) isn't "necessarily relevant"

It's relevant in the larger picture, yes, but in terms of a discussion about Obama's election and how it will influence minority ambition in Europe?

So do you agree with what I have to say, or, do you just have issues with the way I'm saying it???

Sure. I have not read all the books you often mention, but in a way, I have long accepted (I suppose out of my "gut"), that the system in place was built on lies and oppression, and if I can one day know ALL the details, thats a plus. Maybe not a priority though.

The current socio-political structure was created for a reason and getting to the roots of the causative effects of this oppressive system would serve in everyones best judgement to investigate.

Again, I am in agreement, but at a certain point it becomes a question of action. Certainly education (and truthfull history) is very important and can influence the public's interest, but realistically, what's in place will not change rapidly and significantly for a relatively long time. So I wonder if your efforts to educate might be better served if you used the system as it were, embedded yourself (as opposed to remained on the FAR outside, which is where you will remain if your primary talking point is the ISIS PAPERS).

I know you will bring up these Oxford professors who claim the same thhings as you, but let's be honest, their priorities are not the same as yours. Intellectual accuracy is common at places like Oxford and Harvard,, but I don't see Harvard and Oxford marching on Washington just because they have a few profs who study the root of man.

[Ish]

Russia

haha.

[alvin]

I find this highly questionable. If suddenyly all the black folks in Germany considered themselves rightfull owners of the german land and cultural ancestry, it would not change a thing in how that society treated them and classified them. One can feel like the world is theirs, but if that same world disagrees with them and, their reality will still be a difficult one.

Yet the "white" European has been under the impression that the "world is ours" for the last 4-500 years now. The question is not how the world classifies us, its how we classify ourselves. This is why the "powers that be" have propagated the lie that we are somehow a "minority".

If the consensus within the academic and historical communities is that black skinned people from the continent of what is known as Africa were the original inhabitants of Europe, how can there be any question of cultural ancestry and "ownership". Isn't there a term in law thats called ALLODIAL TITLE?

It's relevant in the larger picture, yes, but in terms of a discussion about Obama's election and how it will influence minority ambition in Europe?

There you go using the term "minority"...

MINOR, persons. One under the age of twenty-one years, while in a state of infancy; one who has not attained the age of a major. The terms major and minor, are more particularly used in the civil law. The common law terms are adult and infant. See Infant.

MINORITY. The state or condition of a minor; infancy. In another sense, it signifies the lesser number of votes of a deliberative assembly; opposed to majority

This term is another legal "shackle" that is in place to oppress. The shackles of slavery are no longer of a physical kind, but of mental and of legal classification. The "powers that be" will gladly sue for "minority rights" because they understand what the term means from a legal aspect. Also, many of these said legal "minorities" go along with this foolishness, either out of ignorance or out of complacency.

Sure. I have not read all the books you often mention, but in a way, I have long accepted (I suppose out of my "gut"), that the system in place was built on lies and oppression, and if I can one day know ALL the details, thats a plus. Maybe not a priority though.

The system is set up so you won't look for any details. Through the power of the media you gladly accept the b.s....no questions asked. The B.S. is currently in hyperdrive because IMO "the powers that be" sense that the population(some of them at least) are waking up and are questioning the dogma. Which is why I surmise they are getting prepared for 2012.

Again, I am in agreement, but at a certain point it becomes a question of action. Certainly education (and truthfull history) is very important and can influence the public's interest, but realistically, what's in place will not change rapidly and significantly for a relatively long time. So I wonder if your efforts to educate might be better served if you used the system as it were, embedded yourself (as opposed to remained on the FAR outside, which is where you will remain if your primary talking point is the ISIS PAPERS).

How am I on the "far outside" when I'm just repeating what academics have always stated? I received the same "public" education as millions of others...yet that so-called "education" is nothing more than indoctrination into a certain dogma. This dogma is reinforced by the media, judicial, religious, educational systems on a daily basis. The effectiveness of this dogma is evident by the fact that millions of people have marched endlessly for the "right" to be legally classified as "infants"(ie. minorities)...unable to handle ones own affairs.

I know you will bring up these Oxford professors who claim the same thhings as you, but let's be honest, their priorities are not the same as yours. Intellectual accuracy is common at places like Oxford and Harvard,, but I don't see Harvard and Oxford marching on Washington just because they have a few profs who study the root of man.

There is no need for them to "march on washington". Why would they march for the rights of legal "infants"?

Currently we are PERSONA NON GRATA...stuck in a "civil rights" cesspool, when, in all actuality, our issue, is one of an INTERNATIONAL nature and should be addressed in an international forum. But until we get rid of the legal "minority" tag...we will forever be the worlds largest group of legal "infants".

[ngeso]

Turn on the evening news and you have your pick of the "bad side" of the Black...it doesn't matter...refugee camps in Somalia, starving Ethiopians, Michael Vick, O.J. Simpson, etc...

Where is the "revisionism" of this history...I can give you DOZENS UPON DOZENS OF EXAMPLES of WHITE EUROPEAN SCHOLARS that state:

a.) black skinned people from Africa, Asia, Europe started civilisation, culture,science,etc.

b.) these people colonized the planet.

Black skinned people were instrumental in the civilisation of earth and its peoples since the beginnings of time. That they explored the bounds of the known world is evident! - one casual southward glimpse accross Gibraltar's straight, one finger idly tracking the path from the estuary of the Nile around the sea to Byzantium, Athens, Rome, Iberia and all parts beyond makes this settlingly obvious. The simplest of common senses validates this fact long before the scribes and scholars of history need be consulted for verification. It is seen! And that on their journeys they gave mathematics, science, astronomy, medicine, art, song and letters is equally evident and documented.

But in my opinion this information is of partial value without a comparative understanding of rise and fall, and the complexity of all varied manner of conditions informing, catalysing, expediting and delaying the progress of humankind.

References, as you disseminate them, allow us to believe that our fate was sealed for all eternity the day the first white man cast his eye on us, confering on us righteous virtue, eminence and grandeur. And that it is our right and duty to emphasize, stress and drain this fate without relent or consequence.

But they do not in any way conclusively explain to me who we are and why we are what we are. Why we foundered, strayed and failed. Why we beat and maimed our kin, why we sold us into bondage and chased us off our land, why we did not revolt, or uprise, or kill our oppressors or die in the attempt. Why we stopped what we started (your term).

And why we continue to exist as if none of this ever happened. This is just as evident.

...

[ngeso]

Its funny, the academics of 'modern' European culture have always known the truth about the the rise of man and culture. They have always been EMPOWERED INTELLECTUALLY...and have kept this knowledge away from the masses(who in their ignorance) accepted a version of "truth" that was easiest to digest. If the "black individual" realized he/she IS German "culture"...this foolishness that is named "racism" will cease.

Yet the "white" European has been under the impression that the "world is ours" for the last 4-500 years now. The question is not how the world classifies us, its how we classify ourselves. This is why the "powers that be" have propagated the lie that we are somehow a "minority".

If the consensus within the academic and historical communities is that black skinned people from the continent of what is known as Africa were the original inhabitants of Europe, how can there be any question of cultural ancestry and "ownership". Isn't there a term in law thats called ALLODIAL TITLE?

In the German context those people I described as "identifiably black", or who self-identify as black or part-black i.e. of African origin, optimistically number perhaps 500.000 persons. I reiterate that none of these trace their arrival or that of their ancestors to earlier than colonial times.

At slightly more than half a percent (precisely 0.61%) of a total population of 82 million we are a minority any which way you look at it, and that is not going to change significantly without massive future migration and/or interbreeding.

Discounting some 3 million Turkish Germans and a smattering of South Asians...........

............the remaining staggering majority collectively identifies as Germanic white, practically certain miscegenation over millenia of history notwithstanding. As probable as the likelihood must be seen, whether dark hair, brown eyes or easily tanning skin could evidence a distant, distant African ancestor at the bottom of the family tree is irrelevant for the self-identification of white German majority or the propagation of German culture. This majority has no awareness of its own possible blackness, and it will in near-certain likelihood never entertain the development of such an awareness without due necessity.

Barring that we the minority create that necessity, invade, interbreed and wrest all significant economic, political, judicial and executive powers from the majority by most brutal force (and we would have to subjugate and murder on unprecedented scale!), we the minority will NEVER be able to lay claim to originator- or "ownership" of German culture.

This is a socio-mathematical impossibility, this is a fact!

...

[dag]

What I was driving at is that from a white, christian, German perspective black people are not allowed to exist in the professional, educated, moneyed social realm, and are not depicted or promoted as such.

I myself am an educated, degree-ed professional, and like you I also associate with a small number of black doctors, engineers and university lecturers.

But that does not deflect from the hard fact that within German society we are not at all deemed as representative, presentable or worth representation.

It might be that I work in the entertainment industry or that I live in the bubble that is berlin, but I do not understand what you mean about blacks not being allowed to participate in certain reaches of society. We all seem to agree that blacks, whether directly from africa or hte americas, are relatively recent immigrants in germany. It could be argued that they tend to come from backgrounds that tend to be less financially successful or educated.

How do you compare this to white immigrants to germany of similar backgrounds? I'd say chances are quite good the experiences are in this realm comparable. Is it not in fact a common struggle for immigrants to integrate with a new culture? Blacks in germany might certainly be experiencing other factors by society at large that makes acceptance more difficult, but I unfortunately cannot sense it being white and living within a very liberal subculture in a very liberal city. However, I will say the reports of unrest in a particular district being mainly due to those with "migration backgrounds" are a bit disturbing, but also fit in with those of teens drinking themselves into comas and people of all backgrounds beating up bus drivers - bad news sells more copies.

I dont know if it is my privileged white american infinite optimism, but you certainly share the cynicism that is "typisch deutsch." 61 percent of one percent is an awfully small rate of chance. I know of at least 2 black doctors, but I havent met any of irish, german, spanish, american, english, etc background.


Alvin, are you saying that because the moors populated europe at some time loooooooooong ago, that every european can claim themselves to be african? by your logic, I could claim myself to be personally overcoming oppression due to color of my skin. Do you find that makes any sense, because I have never been the victim of racism, whether individual or institutional, but I know a bunch of dudes with darker skin that have. I understand your point that we all come from the same mother, but adopting victimhood would be arrogancy on my part.

[Martin Red]

It could be argued that they tend to come from backgrounds that tend to be less financially successful or educated.

How do you compare this to white immigrants to germany of similar backgrounds?

[alvin]

Even Tavis Smiley seems to ignore the truth. He is under the impression that our history in this hemisphere began only "400 years ago". Even though the history that he mentions is important it is only a small snapshot to our overall history.

[ngeso]

It might be that I work in the entertainment industry or that I live in the bubble that is berlin, but I do not understand what you mean about blacks not being allowed to participate in certain reaches of society. We all seem to agree that blacks, whether directly from africa or hte americas, are relatively recent immigrants in germany. It could be argued that they tend to come from backgrounds that tend to be less financially successful or educated.

How do you compare this to white immigrants to germany of similar backgrounds? I'd say chances are quite good the experiences are in this realm comparable. Is it not in fact a common struggle for immigrants to integrate with a new culture? Blacks in germany might certainly be experiencing other factors by society at large that makes acceptance more difficult, but I unfortunately cannot sense it being white and living within a very liberal subculture in a very liberal city. However, I will say the reports of unrest in a particular district being mainly due to those with "migration backgrounds" are a bit disturbing, but also fit in with those of teens drinking themselves into comas and people of all backgrounds beating up bus drivers - bad news sells more copies.

I dont know if it is my privileged white american infinite optimism, but you certainly share the cynicism that is "typisch deutsch." 61 percent of one percent is an awfully small rate of chance. I know of at least 2 black doctors, but I havent met any of irish, german, spanish, american, english, etc background.

dag,

you're not reading my comments thoroughly, and making excuses. How many black police officers have you come across? Or judges or high level civil servants, i.e. people who run things, people who supervise, people who make decisions? Have you ever seen a black person read the eight o'clock news? Or manage a Bundesliga club? I'm not talking about someone who swam the Mediterranean last year, I'm talking about someone black, whose great-great-grandfather came from Togo or Tanganyika in 1890.

Don't succumb to that other "typisch deutsche" quality central to German institutional racism: the overbearing, paternalistic, supremacist, thoroughly condescending attitude toward the complaining Neger. Just because you live in Berlin, and think it is hip, and you are in entertainment, where you meet lots of black people to colour things up (as I well pointed out earlier on), doesn't mean that things here are completely and utterly wrong as far as race issues are concerned. When it comes to race matters, Germany is ignorant, unenlightened and thoroughly inexperienced.

One inspection of the modernity of the "Blut-und-Boden-Theorie" should tell you that Germans will integrate white returnees, whose forebears settled in Siberia, Crimea and Kazhakstan in the 18th century, and who often are German in name only, long before they accept the integration of German born and bred Turks or Africans, or B/W mixed-race blacks for that matter.

Even though I exist at the top of the economic and educational food-chain, I still have to justify to white Germans why, although I am black, I speak German so perfectly and prepare the best Sauerbraten in town. I still have to explain where I "really, really, really" come from (a. I was born here, b) I have been living here for the last 20+ years, but it is only when the Kenyan bit is mentioned, that the compartmentalising works successfully). I still have to explain conclusively, why I am and should be here. And when I take a train to Paris or Amsterdam, I'm the only person in a train car full of white people who has to endure a ten-minute ID-check by the border police because I am the most suicide-bomber-looking guy available(*).

THIS HAPPENS TO ME ON A DAILY BASIS.





I am not respected or represented in this society.







(*)Last happened three weeks ago on our office outing to France in front of two dozen white colleagues - four armed BGS officers took off with my ID-card for ten minutes to do a complete data check; not a single other person was made to produce an ID. This is inside Schengen-EU, where officially there are no borders .

...

[Martin Red]

I'm the only person in a train car full of white people who has to endure a ten-minute ID-check because I am the most suicide-bomber-looking guy available.

THIS HAPPENS TO ME ON A DAILY BASIS.

my dad used to get that and worst in the uk a few decades ago, of course, he would have to speak first.

[ngeso]

Alvin, are you saying that because the moors populated europe at some time loooooooooong ago, that every european can claim themselves to be african? by your logic, I could claim myself to be personally overcoming oppression due to color of my skin. Do you find that makes any sense, because I have never been the victim of racism, whether individual or institutional, but I know a bunch of dudes with darker skin that have. I understand your point that we all come from the same mother, but adopting victimhood would be arrogancy on my part.

I think what Alvin is trying to point out is that black people have populated Europe throughout history, that conventional historic documentation disregards and even expurgates this occurence, and that thus European white self-identification is flawed.


...

[Martin Red]

What about an Inuit prime minsiter, and a irish king

Or a Zulu King and a Kiwi queen

or a big bag of spunk in a suit to do both jobs.

[alvin]

I think what Alvin is trying to point out is that black people have populated Europe throughout history, that conventional historic documentation disregards and even expurgates this occurence, and that thus European white self-identification is flawed.


...

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Black skinned people didn't populate just Europe, but the entire planet...its just that many of us(especially here in this hemisphere) actually believed the lie that we all came here in "slave ships" and had no part in civilising the planet.

One of my points is is that the "system" that we continually look to for approval is the same system that will not acknowledge the depth and breath of our history. We go through a educational system that has lied to us, we go through a judicial system that lies to us, we have governmental agencies that lie to us, we have a religious system that lies to us...and most of us will go through life seeking approval from a system that will never acknowledge who and what we truly are...

I've stated before that the system is content with you calling yourself a "minority"...why would they want to change a proven system that keeps them in power with minimal effort.

They kicked us off of land we inhabited originally, came up with this "minority" tag and now most of us are under the impression that these lands are "foreign" to us and our history within these lands is some recent phenomenon due to "slavery" or "illegal immigration".

[bigshawn]

You took the words right out of my mouth.

Black skinned people didn't populate just Europe, but the entire planet...its just that many of us(especially here in this hemisphere) actually believed the lie that we all came here in "slave ships" and had no part in civilising the planet.

One of my points is is that the "system" that we continually look to for approval is the same system that will not acknowledge the depth and breath of our history. We go through a educational system that has lied to us, we go through a judicial system that lies to us, we have governmental agencies that lie to us, we have a religious system that lies to us...and most of us will go through life seeking approval from a system that will never acknowledge who and what we truly are...

I've stated before that the system is content with you calling yourself a "minority"...why would they want to change a proven system that keeps them in power with minimal effort.

They kicked us off of land we inhabited originally, came up with this "minority" tag and now most of us are under the impression that these lands are "foreign" to us and our history within these lands is some recent phenomenon due to "slavery" or "illegal immigration".

BINGO!!!!!!!

[Martin Red]

we have a religious system that lies to us....

Bollocks, so the world aint 6 thousand years old, does this mean I don't get a bunch of unfucked birds in the big fluffy cloud in the sky.

NO SHIT SHERLOCK !


Anyone of science knowledge knows that, and alot more to boot.

[alvin]

Even though I exist at the top of the economic and educational food-chain, I still have to justify to white Germans why, although I am black, I speak German so perfectly and prepare the best Sauerbraten in town.

(*)Last happened three weeks ago on our office outing to France in front of two dozen white colleagues - four armed BGS officers took off with my ID-card for ten minutes to do a complete data check; not a single other person was made to produce an ID. This is inside Schengen-EU, where officially there are no borders .

When I was younger, my uncle was employed with Mobil here in Dallas as an accountant he told me how even though he was dressed "professionally"(suit, vest, tie, etc.), women would grab their purses when entering a elevator at the corporate headquarters in downtown Dallas...It doesn't matter if you are a thugged out hood-rat or an esteemed salaried employee for a Fortune 500 company...you are still a perceived "threat"(either real or imagined) for the simple fact of your skin color...


It doesn't matter if you are in Europe or America, in the inner-city or the "corporate" world, these types of incidents aren't isolated by any means.